Joy, a Podcast. Hosted by Craig Ferguson - Kathy Kinney

Episode Date: November 21, 2023

 Meet Craig’s dear friend Kathy Kinney. She is an American actress, voice actress, and comedian. In the late 1990s she starred in the sitcom The Drew Carey Show as Mimi Bobeck, the outrageously made-up, flamboyantly vulgar, and vindictive nemesis of Drew Carey. This is a good one. EnJOY!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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For 10 years, I've been obsessed with one of the most bizarre and audacious cons in rock and roll history. We were all facing 20 years and all that good stuff. The lead singer tried to pull off an English accent, and they went on the road as the zombies. These guys are not going to get away with it. Zombies are too popular. Listen to the true story of the fake zombies on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage.

I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Misspelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness.

Here's Kathy Kinney. She played Mimi, terror and blue eyeshadow on the drew carey show enjoy right kathy you're on this podcast because you are a joy in my life why there's nothing i like better than hearing the sound of you sucking on a lozenge and clicking it against your teeth. Kathy, you are a joy. Now, I wanted to talk to you about joy because you are good at it. I've thought about joy a lot. It's because you're from the Midwest and you're chronically depressed in reality. I think that's what it is. I don't know. You know, I think that I've always been one of these people who's very Pollyanna,

which can be a four-letter word, you know, Pollyanna. Right. Okay. But, you know, I'm not tooting my own horn, but I feel like I need to explain the joy thing. You know, I wrote a book with my best friend Cindy Ratzlaff I remember Cindy Ratzlaff yeah that's her real name yeah uh because she I would sometimes say she's all women but then you would say no no it's Peggy Ricey that's all women I like to keep your memory in line but yeah they're both all women really

yeah I suppose that is true yeah yeah, when you think about it. Yeah, but Cindy and I wrote a book called, ready? Queen of Your Own Life, The Grown-Up Woman's Guide to Claiming Happiness and Getting the Life You Deserve. That's great. Is there anything left for the book once you finish the title? No, and that's what having an editor does for you, by the way. For you. Because I just, I might have called it the book. Kathy's book.

The book. With her friend Peggy. Cindy and Kathy. Oh, Cindy, yeah. See, now I've got Peggy Rice in my mind because she's all woman. She's all woman. Yeah. The reason why I said that is because I met her with you and I said, that Peggy Rice, she's all woman.

Is that what I said? Yes, you did. And it's funny because I just told somebody the other day, sometimes Craig thinks it's Cindy and he goes, Cindy Ratzlaff. She's all woman. And then I go, no, that's Peggy Riceky. That's all woman. Oh, right.

Right. You go. And then we've had this conversation. We have. And here's the thing. They're both all women. Yes, they are. Yeah, I know.

And from the Midwest. Right. Which is. As indeed are you. So I could say, Kathleen Kinney, she's all women from the midwest now but you're from the mid i see i think the midwest is misrepresented in american popular culture and i will tell you why because i think the midwest is quite scary serial killers yeah beer cheese beer, cheese, what's scary? Well, beer's scary to me.

Cheese can sometimes, I know cheese can be scary to you because you can be a bit lactose tootsie. More than a bit. Yeah, and serial killers are just nobody's idea of fun. Except people who do podcasts, apparently. People who do podcasts, there's a lot of podcasts about serial killers. That's true. Yeah.

You know, I grew up not in the same era, contrary to popular belief about my age, but I grew up about 25 miles from where Ed Gein slaughtered people. And Alfred Hitchcock based Psycho on Ed Gein. Ed Gein, really? Did he dress up as his mom and stuff? You spitting out your lozenge? I am, because I'm getting ready

to talk about joy, so I don't want to get the lozenge stuck on the microphone. See, when you were playing Mimi, I remember when you were playing Mimi

on the Drew Carey show, I realized now, it's rare that I've seen you not drinking with a straw, because you always have to have a straw when you had that makeup on. I remember that. Do you remember? Yes, I do. You'd be talking, have a straw when you had that makeup on. I remember that.

Do you remember? Yes, I do. You'd be talking, talking, and then you'd go, and your little straw. Anyway, so you grew up next to Ed Gein, the serial killer that was based on Near Ed Gein, but surprisingly, with a positive attitude, which eventually, now you tell me, positive attitude which eventually now you tell me here's why we wrote that book because i would go places after i you know when i was on the drew carey show and after and people would say you're on tv i'd love to see your house like people that were in your neighborhood and stuff well it just everywhere everywhere people who didn't and people would say things like, are you that movie star?

And I'm like, no, I'm a TV whore. I'm completely different. No, really, it's kind of the same. It is the same. But I wrote that book with Cindy because I really believe that we are all more alike than different. You know, I empty the litter box one turd at a time, just like everybody else.

Now, here's the thing. I never empty the litter box. I don't even have a cat. Well, see, then you win. But if I had a cat. Do you not have a cat? I thought you did have a cat. Oh, you know, the sad thing about pets is they all die.

Yeah, I know. It's terrifying. But here's the thing. Joy. I've thought about it a lot. Right, okay. Okay. Because I had joy when I came and saw you at the Brea Improv because I hadn't seen you in maybe four or five years.

Four or five years. And there you were in your full comic glory. And you were so funny. And it reminded me of all the good times that we had on the Drew Carey show. We did have good times, you and I. We did, you and I. Yeah, you and I. I mean, it wasn't a good time there all the time.

No, but you and I always had a good time riding around in the car going, hey, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. Making noises. We would make noises because we had these little golf carts and we would ride around the Warner Brothers lot

and go to Western Town at the back. Why did we go there? We used to get frozen yogurt and go for a run in the cart. I think we were bored. I think we were bored too. I was bored because all I did on the Drew Carey show every now and again is I'd run on and go, get it, you're fired.

And then, maybe that's enough. Not that pen. Yeah. You need the Mont Blanc. The Mont Blanc pen. But they would do occasionally things like that, and you would do a lot more work than me. But you were nicest to me on that show.

Yeah. I think that my heritage is Scottish. Yeah, for sure. McKinney. McKinney's Irish. I think probably you're Irish. Actually, for sure. McKinney. Kinney's Irish. I think probably you're Irish. Actually, you know, one of my cousins

traced it all the way back through Ethel the Acrobat, who evidently married into our family, wasn't one of my personal relatives. Was her name the Acrobat or was that her job? Ethel the Acrobat was how she was billed.

Right. And she was billed. Right. And she was in vaudeville? Evidently. There was a picture of her sitting on her husband's shoulder with her hand in the air. And then there was a third guy in the act. I don't know if he swallowed swords or fire or whatever. So it was some weird menage a trois with Ethel, her husband, and the sword swaller. She was an acrobat.

Right, okay. Anyway, one of my cousins traced it all the way back. We're sort of from that hinterland of Scotland and Ireland. Oh, yes. It was McKinney and it was Scottish. Well, the Scottish-Irish. But my family could never stay in any one place, so they all migrated towards the potatoes and to Ireland and then to New York and Canada, which is why I gave everybody.

My aunt wanted to know how much Native American we were so she could gamble at the casino. So I gave everybody the DNA spit in the tube thing. It was 1% for her. Are you 1%? No, i was none zero percent it ended with her but so she was angry and she also found out that we're mostly we're french and irish but she found out when after spitting in the test tube that she was 21 percent english and only 16 percent irish and it made her very angry because you know how the irish

feel about the English. Yeah, you'd be conflicted to find out you're somebody that you're not that fond of. I got that in my own life. When I was drinking, I found out I was somebody that I was not that fond of, and that's why I had to get sober. You're a person who I think of as,

you're not an alcoholic or anything, but you're someone who I think of as being weirdly, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way, because I mean it as a compliment, sober. You seem to me someone who has gone through difficulties, personally, emotionally, maybe, and kind of come out the other side. Into joy? Well, certainly into clarity. You see how I keep trying to bring it back? Yeah, I know. It's good. You're keeping it on message, but I tend not to do that. Yeah, that's okay.

I agree with you. I think that, you know, surviving the Midwest and... And yeah, many people are very happy and comfortable there. Yeah. And, you know, if I went back there, I wouldn't... I mean, one time a couple of years ago, I was doing your radio thing, and you asked me if I had any interest in moving back there, I wouldn't. I mean, one time a couple years ago, I was doing your radio thing, and you asked me if I had any interest in moving back to where I was from. And I said no, but also, you know, they have snow up beyond your hairline there,

and I just can't do that anymore. But I think that everybody gets a chance to survive their childhood. Was your childhood difficult, do do you think i think it was you know i had a good time i don't mean to fling the word joy out so often but um you know i was an only child and i still am and you know do you think there's any chance that you'll get a sibling anytime soon i don't know you know my mother was adopted so that was why we did all the spit oh right of course yeah that didn't help anyway there were no no other children i already knew that but my father was

ill and he was when you were a kid when i was a kid from the time i was five until i was 15 when he died and you know i come from that that weird irish family that everyone neglected to tell me that he was dying. And then one day I came home and he was dead. And I was like, oh, it was so surprising. What was wrong with him? He had emphysema. Oh, wow. He had bronchial asthma, but then he had emphysema.

And, of course, everybody smoked. And I remember being a kid saying, I'm never going to smoke. And then promptly after he died, I began smoking because we're so self-destructive. I think that's also, you're probably in a lot of grief because, you know, it's difficult, particularly if you come from the kind of background that we kind of both come from. Grief is, it's like, it's very bad. And then you stop. And I don't, that's never been my experience i mean i was still grieving about my parents dying and it's years and years and

years ago it never goes away it just becomes different yeah it's funny i think that this country's just not very good with grief and i know that my family in particular wasn't because my father died and then we didn't mention him again for 20, 25 years. That's kind of like the mafia. Well, that's like the Irish. It is though. I mean, it's like you have the wake and then it's done and then you move on.

You move on. And I think one time I had a massage, one of these deep tissue massages after I moved to New York. I was going to say you didn't get that in the Midwest. No, not in the Midwest. You probably could now though. You could, it would involve beer and cheese, I imagine. I don't know.

I had a few serial killers, but I had this, and I didn't realize how armored I was until I had that deep tissue massage. It was like so painful. And the release of, I think I was just clenched since my father died. Yeah. Because. Were you close to your dad?

I was. My mother was an unusual woman. And I think that my father and I were always like, oh, she's kind of different. Okay. In what way was she unusual? She was adopted. Right. But I mean, a lot of people are adopted.

On her birth certificate, when she was born, she was born one year after they stopped putting the word bastard on birth certificates. I've heard bastard written after my name many times since then. I thought that was your middle name. Craig Bastard Ferguson. Bastard. I like podcasts because you can say things like bastard. You can say bastard, yeah. Yeah.

So my mother never believed that she was loved. Ah. And that's something that she hung on to all her life. You know, you tell yourself these stories to get by in life. And I think that any clarity that you see in me is because i told myself lots of stories like you know you're not attractive you're not smart you're not funny you're not you know all the knots just fill in the blank and then because i sort of got that from my mother and then you know one day in the midwest i i've cleaned this up a little bit but it's called poop or get off the pot you can say share

well in the book we wrote poop or get Off the Pot about how you feel about yourself. And, you know, one day I thought, oh, I am brilliantly funny. And after the Drew Carey show, you know, I own my own home. I'm worth some money. Anybody would be lucky to have me. You're fabulously wealthy. Yeah. Fabulous.

Fabulous. Yeah. One time I said, I want to be Drew Carey wealthy. And he said, well, you're Kathy Kinney wealthy. And I go, I am, but it's not the same. Trust me. But I made the decision that I was pretty good. And there's a grace that comes from letting go of the pain of your

childhood and moving forward. Was there any formal kind of ceremony or program or system that you went through to move from the pain of your childhood? Was there kind of like a, cause there wasn't a rehab or anything like that, right? No. I mean, there was alcohol, drugs. Did you, you did all that then? Candy. Oh God. Yeah. I mean, I was in a lot of pain.

Like I said, they've neglected to tell me that my father was going to die. So it was very shocking. And then the thing I'd, I'd always wanted to travel. And so I just slowly jockeyed myself into position so that I could travel and that's what I did you became an actress and that was an accident though that wasn't that wasn't because I don't really believe in accidents like that but you tell me well that's that's the point and here's here's the point but as we slide slide in towards joy know, the only skills I had when I was in Wisconsin was I was a bartender. Right.

In a dirtbag bar that used to be called Cora Nimcheck's Long Branch. It reeked of vomit from lumberjacks who had puked there back in 1839. Wow. And it just soaked in. So I was 18 and I was, you you know the bartender there right and my other skill i went to college and i put myself through college as a carpenter in the scene shop wow i don't know i've never seen you carpet oh i'm i'm good at carpentry okay i'm good with power tools so when i was in college these are my two skills bartending and I'm not talking about

can you make me a Manhattan I'm talking about you know whiskey beer and a shot of schnapps yeah that's what I think bartender knows everything else is just conversation like I was the head bartender for weddings at Bernard's Supper Club and they'd say what do you got and i go i got uh beer i got brandy i got squirt and i got brandy and squirt and they go i'll have a brandy and squirt and i can you have a squirt on his own yeah i'm asking for a friend it's a grapefruit soda yeah oh okay it's a very prominent grapefruit so i thought it was so when i left there and i got a free ride out to manhattan with the self-esteem below sea level and these two skills of the carpenter. How did you get a free ride? How did you go from Stephen's point?

I was friends with the woman who was a dance teacher at the university and she got a job teaching at Amherst College. So she needed somebody to drive her 26-foot U-Haul from Wisconsin to Massachusetts. And I had been driving this library show wagon around with these vivid pictures on it, driving around to the smaller towns, putting on plays. Because I was in the technical. I was a tech director. Oh, right. So you were carpenting.

Yeah, no intention of acting whatsoever. So I drive her truck out, and we get out out to New York and there's a blackout immediately. A blackout in New York? I think I remember that. That was in the 80s? Was that in the 80s? Yo, back in the 80s. I had a few blackouts in New York in the 80s, but I think there might have been a citywide one at one point.

This was citywide. And, you know, I'm that person who's had so many because again my self-esteem was so low i didn't think i could get a job as a bartender in manhattan i didn't think i was attractive enough and besides i didn't know how to make anything other than beer and schnapps right so i had jobs that really there's the book you know i was a live-in for a crippled ex-vogue model well you like that sounds like a bay davis movie it was yeah it was awful and i worked for art car diamond and class rings let's go back to the betty davis movie okay i'm not sure you you really don't want any more details on then then i'm you know that was it live in for a crippled x

vogue bedridden x vogue model she mean to you no she was bedridden as i mean to her no no i thought about taking her life it's the closest i hope i ever come to taking anyone's life. That's so dumb. Why? Why? Because I didn't think I deserved a better job. No, but why did you take the job? Why do you think you've been killing her? Oh, because she had 10 pillows behind her head. Right. And she'd go, every night, I'd go, okay, good night. I'd go to bed, 3 o'clock in the morning.

She'd go, Kathy, Kathy, Kathy. Okay, can you flatten the yellow pillow? Can you roll the pink pillow? Can you plump the blue pillow every night every night and after about a month and a half you know I stood there with that yellow pillow just shaking like because the part I'm leaving out all this stuff I mean I'm not always prone to murder but no I've never discussed murder with you at all no she she had a 13 year old daughter whose bed butted into the side of her hospital bed she believed her daughter was the reincarnation of judy garland and she would torture the daughter you know i have to go to

the bathroom i have to go to the bathroom that's all i'm going to leave it until i had to get up and handle it the woman was bedridden but wait the daughter didn't help her go to the bathroom. That's all I'm going to leave it at. Until I had to get up and handle it. The woman was bedridden. But wait, the daughter didn't help her go to the bathroom? She did, but she was 13. Yeah. She was tired. It was the middle of the night.

So what happened to the daughter? Is she okay? You don't know. Maybe. You do know. This is getting too bad. Is it getting litigious? Yes, it's litigious.

Is it getting dangerous now? I did run into her on the street one time after I left there, and her mother had finally passed away. She would medicate herself with Dramamine, which eventually will kill you. Yeah, but you won't feel nauseous. You know, you won't, or you won't be dizzy either. The Craig Ferguson Fancy Rascal Stand-Up Tour continues this fall. For tickets, go to thecraigfergusonshow.com slash tour.

See you on the road. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is. I think he was like, oh yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a

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This is what I'm most proud of. I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you've got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly. Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone.

You're going to you're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Guess what, Bingo? What's that, Will? So iHeart is giving us a whole minute to promote our podcast, Part-Time Genius. I know. That's why I spent my whole week composing a haiku for the occasion. It's about my emotional journey in podcasting over the last seven years, and it's called

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Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is my first job when I moved to New York. Yeah, that's a dark. I'm sorry. We took a little dark detour. But you did when you were there. And then so you were working in this Betty Davis movie. And then you get a job as a bartender.

No. No, not yet. I never bartended. You never got a job as a bartender. No, because I didn't think I was attractive enough. I was the receptionist for Art Carved Diamond and Class Rings. And I was hungover. I had one outfit.

It was pink. I didn't have a lot of clothes. And I sat behind bulletproof glass. And there was a button underneath my desk that if someone came to rob it, because the vault was there. Every day, I'd fall asleep, jerk, set that thing off, and then wait, and nobody ever came. That was the scariest part. Yeah, that was a good job then i worked at the american psychiatric association okay doing what it was a new york county district branch and i was the assistant membership director and it went something like this okay it was just my friend cindy rats laughing oh she's a woman

she's all woman along with peggy res, along with Peggy Reiske. We're in a tiny little room in the middle of Manhattan, and the phone would ring, and I would say, American Psychiatric Association, which I did in my sleep for years after that. And someone would go, I need to talk to a psychiatrist. They have to be on the Upper East Side. They have to have blonde hair. They can only handle people who get seasick and who are angry over something that happened in their childhood and i go please hold and i go cindy it's for you

and she goes this is cindy how many and then she goes oh okay and they go through could you hold then she goes this it was your turn again i go it was your turn it was your and we would fight over you would do you would counsel people on the phone? We referred people. Oh, you referred people to psychiatrists. To psychiatrists, which is why I've never seen one. I've been a therapist. What's the difference? Let's finally put this to rest.

Psychiatrists can give you drugs. Right. I've certainly, then in that case, I've talked to a lot of psychiatrists. They weren't in offices. They were in bars. And they're heavily trained. They go to school for years. A therapist, you can pretty much right away onto the internet and get a degree.

My therapist for a long time, who I think you know, and we've discussed, I think, I can't remember. I don't go to therapy anymore. But when I did, she was a psychiatrist. She could give drugs. She just didn't give me any, which is one of the reasons why I don't see her anymore thank you no I don't I she never thought it was necessary did you ever take psychotropics or any of these things try to get yourself right somebody tried to put me on lithium or something like that once. Yeah. It was ridiculous. Yeah.

It didn't, nothing, you know, I self-medicated. And when I think about all the things that I did and took to not feel my grief, you know, to not feel. About your dad. Yeah, about my dad, you know, about my belief from my mother that i was unlovable or you know that that low self-esteem thing you know it's just it's fascinating the things that we do to not feel our feelings yeah it is remarkable that's kind of why i want to do a podcast funnily enough called joy because i think that there has been a tendency amongst in popular culture or people like us who, who talk about things to talk only about the negative emotions,

which are, which is valid, but they're not the only ones that exist. And one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you so early on was because you're someone that very much lives in the light you and, but you're very, you know, you're,

you're didactic about it. You're diligent about it you're diligent about it you're almost aggressive about making sure you're it's okay and you you did that with me repeatedly when i was in the dark days of was on the drew carey show and i was like i can't go and say fucking carry you're fired one more time he's driving me up the fucking wall and you would always make me laugh and you would cheer me up, which I've always been very grateful for, but also impressed by,

because you do it to yourself too, don't you? I do. You know, I never talk about that book. I mean, we wrote that book a long time ago, but I love to travel. And Cindy had lost her job and was sitting at home on the couch. and I would call and she would say, Welcome to Walmart. How may I help you?

She was practicing and the rest of the time she was eating potato chips. And I dragged her on this trip to Prague, which we'd planned. It was early December and we got there. The producer of the show is from very near Prague. Really? I love Prague. Yeah, Tomas, he's from the Czech Republic. You are? I loved it.

I had fantastic, fabulous stories about it. Talk to you later. No, no, no. Tell us now. What happened in Prague? What happened in Prague was, well, we were sitting in this gorgeous hotel looking out over the Charles River, looking at the castle. That was the name I was going to use if I became a movie star. What? Charles River, looking at the castle. That was the name I was going to use if I became a movie star. What?

Charles River. Really? My stripper name is Public Storage. Do you know, when I was a kid, I've never told anyone except Megan this before. When I was a kid, when I was about 10 10 years old I wanted to be called Al Shapiro I wanted to be an American and I wanted my name to be Al Shapiro and I wanted to have leather wristbands and a and a leather vest and long hair yeah I've made a bunch of Al Shapiros and I never want to be Al Shapiro now.

I don't know why. That's strange what you get in your head, isn't it? Yeah. Anyway, so you're in Charles River. Yeah, I'm looking out at the castle. It's all lit, you know. And before I left, I was like, my foot would get hot at night. And I was like, why?

And I'm kicking out the covers. And I look looked so i look it up what's this one foot so i'm like what's this all about so i look it up and it says now that you're a crone you want to take yourself away from your family so you don't harm them and i was like where did you find this yeah online and you're a crone and you have to get away from your family yeah and this is yeah it's i guess it was supposed to be, it was all about menopause. So I guess, you know, I mean, I don't know. But so I get to Prague and I say to Cindy, you know, I don't want to be the crone in the corner.

No. You know, men are the king of their house. I go, why can't we be the queen? Why can't we be queens and wear crowns and through that entire trip through prague we every night we i always have this new year's eve party yes and we say what do you want to keep that's still working for you and what do you want to let go that isn't good and so every night sometimes we had goose and champagne and sometimes just- You always have goose and champagne.

Oh, I love goose mit champagne. And it was Prague. And sometimes we'd just have beer and bread. Right. And we would do this every night. And Cindy said, I wish that I was the girl that I'd been when I was 18 and I had that courage and I sold my bike and I took that money and I moved to New York and I've known her so long that I could say, you still are that girl. You still have that courage. And so, and it's like you, like I see you, but I see who you were when you were a kid.

Like I see someone, I go, and I see what you were like. The Al Shapiro. The Al Shapiro with the leather bands on your wrists. Leather bands on my wrists and long hair. Yeah. And that's what, so we had this ceremony every night when we were in Prague where we would say, what do you want to let go?

And what I always want to let go is my low self-esteem, my belief that I'm not enough. And what I always wanted to keep that's always, always working for me is my sense of humor yes which you always had I mean I've seen you go from and it's quite a remarkable thing I've seen you like in frustration and anger and to be in tears and it's one of the most satisfying things that I've been able to do in my life is I've always been able to make you laugh and and being able to remember when your cat died it was yes I do it was it was bad and I was talking about it because it was so sad and you said yeah are we still talking about that cat

my favorite was when we'd all sit in the makeup room and he would come in and go can we talk about me now and then we go no no absolutely not but you were you just you know i told you this the other day i just you're brilliantly funny and timeless and that's what is so appealing about you and that's why even after not seeing you for five years, we could just sit down at a lunch club and just like... Well, I think that's what happens when you're actually friends with someone.

When it's not show business friends, but when you're actually friends, it's kind of... Because I can't think of the last time we actually talked about work. No. Like, you know, but that being said,

you're in Prague with Cindy Ratzlaff. Yes. Who's all woman, as much as Peggy Reiske is, certainly. As much, as much. And now, why did you go to Prague? No, no, wait. I always wanted to go. No, no, no.

Hold on. You're not in Prague. I want to go back chronologically to get you through to the Drew Carey show, because that's where I met you. Oh. Right. So you're in New York. Right. You're working for this woman who you didn't kill.

Statue of limitations. Right. And then I had American Psychiatric Association. Psychiatric Association. So many jobs. And then, so how come the acting then? Because does that, when you did Arachnophobia when you were in New York? No.

Here's the point. That was a great movie by the way. I loved that. I bought a Honda Civic with that money from that. And also I learned that spiders do not like lemon pledge. So if you want to keep spiders away from you, you just spray lemon pledge, like on the windowsill or something. Why don't they like lemon pledge?

They just don't. But they wanted that big spider to walk a straight line. So they just sprayed pledge on either side of it and the spider was like oh nowhere to go except forward here's how my story escalates and brings me forward uh cindy ratzlaff hated to work by herself right which is why i was at the american psychiatric association got it she ended up going to wcbs-TV, the broadcast center in Manhattan, and she hired me. I was the publicist for the Muppets for a while. And then they moved me into her area.

I was a statistical typist, which is only funny because I still don't type numbers very well. And there were the three of us in one big room and it was Cindy, me, and a guy named Bill Sherwood. And we work for the heads of finance for WCBS TV. And Bill Sherwood wrote a movie called Parting Glances. Oh, I see where we're going there. And Cindy took her tax money and she said, we're going to quit our jobs and start teaching improvisation. Because one of the many things that someone told her she needed to do improvisation to be a good actor, but she hated to do it. She wouldn't do it by herself. Right. It's hard to improvise.

Yeah, she made me go with her. And she tells a story that within 10 minutes, everybody knew I was funny except for me. Yeah. And that was true. I think being funny is an interesting thing because there's a lot of people who think they're funny who are not funny at all. No. And there are a lot of people who are funny who don't think funny thoughts. Do you know what I mean?

They don't think in that kind of, here's something that's funny. And like, I don't think like that. You don't think like that. No. You know, it's not like, here's a good joke. It's just funny. Yeah. It's just that I can't, well, if I am funny,

you see there are people who will say, well, he's not funny. And you go, well, not to you, you know. There was somebody we used to work with that couldn't understand you. Or else she was flirting. Drew Carey. No. Maybe. This was a woman, though.

I think she was just flirting with you because we'd go to lunch and she'd be there and then you'd say something and she'd go, what did he say? And I go, he said he wants to say uh some frozen yogurt like i've never heard i can't hear your accent right you just i just hear you yeah i i think that that there was a time there in the 90s where i probably sounded more scottish than i do now now or it was fashionable to make fun of people's accents. Oh. But then Shrek came along

and Scottish people became very attractive. Yeah. Well, yeah, I guess that has been Shrek. So I end up working with this guy, Bill Sherwood, who wrote this movie,

Parting Glances. Which you ran. Yeah, which he put me in with my friend Steve Buscemi. Right. He's also had a bit of a career, let's be honest. I thought you were going to say he's also. Right. He's also had a bit of a career, let's be honest. I thought you were going to say he's also all woman.

He's not much of a woman. I love him. He's one of those people. He's a great guy. That's why I was so happy to see you. There's just a couple of people in my life who I lost touch with that I cared about. You were one and Steve Buscemi is the other one. We were actually in Prague that whole time together.

That's the weird thing. Steve and I were in Prague. You were. And every night we would have different things put on little crowns. A little goulash, a little pilsner, whatever. So Steve, if you hear this, call me. I have the same phone number. And so I did that movie.

And an old friend from high school was a manager out here in la and i came out and i started to get these jobs but it was i didn't know how to act i was baffled by the whole you were really good at acting i think you do know how i think you were acting i think you probably a lot of the acting because you see 10 i was a bartender as well yeah i think certain ways of approaching bartending there's a certain personality that it works for a performer because i got my work i started by being a bartender somebody saw me the bar and said you should do this you know oh well see you remember for a Nimcheck's Long Branch. Right. And then Corky Cluck bought it. So it was the Cluck stop. And I'm 18.

And what I would get was old men would come in there. One time an old man, Drew Carey, love this story, offered me $3 an hour to come to his house, his apartment. $3 an hour. But is this just for sex? Oh, yeah. But I had to wear a dress and pretend that I was there cleaning the apartment because the other women were so nosy. And so finally, I just, okay, what day? Four o'clock?

All right, I'll be there. Because I couldn't get rid of them. Right. You didn't go though. No. No, but Drew. $3 an hour. For some reason, Drew Carey just thought that was the funniest story ever.

It's a funny story. I think it's shocking and awful and funny at the same time. So that's the Midwest. So no, I never had any kind of... So you didn't work as a $3 an hour house cleaning prostitute, which is kind of the whole thrust of what I was trying to get to the bottom of here. But people thought my mother sent my cousin. After I did move to Manhattan, my mother sent my cousin

because she thought that I was living there as a prostitute or something. Is there anyone ever, even to this day, that looks or acts less like a prostitute than me? You know, this may shock you, but I'm no expert in this world. I don't know. I don't think. You don't seem to come across prostitutes of me. I'm not saying that, you know, that a string of unusual men did not hit on me.

And I mean unusual, like Hasidic, older Hasidic men and Greek deli workers. It's like somebody put a sign on my back or something like that you know but yeah no i survived if all these unusual men are hitting on you yeah didn't that at least in some way help your self-esteem a little bit oh god no i mean really no oh no you know how like they go you know you know how in tootsie when dustin hoffman says i have a little bit of a mustache problem and she said well some men like that and he's he says well i don't like men that like that well that's like i don't you know 75 year old hasidic man no that's not my thing no it didn't none of it also when you when you

make that firm decision that you are not good enough and yes i understand and actually and here's what happened. Here's how it broke. Because I always had these voices that were so Academy Award winning, abusive. You know, oh my God, you're this or that. Plump the pillow, Kathy. Yes. Plump the pillow.

Yellow, yellow. So I was on this TV show, a guest star on a TV show. Okay, it was Seinfeld. And I was on that show and I felt very kind of abused on that show. And when I left there, as I was driving home, this was before Drew Carey, I thought, oh my God, you're not funny and everybody knows it and you're stupid and you're ugly. And I said to myself, I'm driving, can you leave me alone for 10 minutes till I get home? And I got home and I took off my clothes and I got my kitchen timer and I laid down spread eagle on my bed and I put that kitchen timer on for 10 minutes. And I said to that negative voice, if you could take me down, do it. Go. And it was like, oh, you're fat, you're ugly, you're stupid, you're not funny. And

the cats don't like you. Yeah. And if you got another cat, that cat wouldn't like you either. And I go, is that the best you can do? Really? Because it's not good enough. And if you don't have anything good to say to me, then don't say anything at all. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs

of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is. I think he was like, oh yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred,

Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Miss Spelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said, like, in my head for, like like 16 years. Wild.

Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians, actors in the world. We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love and everything in between. This life right here, just finding myself, just this relaxation, this not feeling stressed, this not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of. I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly.

Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone. You're going to, you're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Want to know how to leverage culture to build a successful business? Then Butternomics is the podcast for you. I'm your host, Brandon Butler, founder and CEO of Butter ATL. Over my career, I've built and helped run multiple seven-figure businesses that leverage culture and build successful brands.

Now I want to share what I've learned with you. And on Butternomics, we go deep with today's most influential entrepreneurs, innovators, and business leaders to peel back the layers on how they use culture as a driving force in their business. On every episode, we get the inside scoop on how these leaders tap into culture to build something amazing. From exclusive interviews to business breakdowns, we'll explore the journey of turning passion for culture into business. Whether you're just getting started or an established business owner, Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level. This is Butternomics.

Listen to Butternomics on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've had this grace period. I'm not saying that in a time of crisis, that voice doesn't come back and go, hey, you, and I go, no, no. The recovery for me is that I only hear it for like a minute. And then it goes, oh yeah, I can't say anything mean anymore. That was the start of it for me, really. So I owe Jerry Seinfeld and that other guy,

you know, that was on the show. I owe them a lot. If they hadn't been kind of mean to me is that what it was they were mean to you you know they were the top of the heap at that time you know I was nothing I was the woman at the handicapped spot you know the I was the blood you know I just talked it's handicapped so but that was a defining moment for me and since that moment i've just i have such acceptance of myself and 99 of the people around me which is why and we're back to joy seeing you i think joy is one of those it's a burst of an emotion. And that if you lived in joy all the time,

it would be like driving around with your foot down with the gas pedal shoved all the way to the floor. I agree. It would be psychotic. It would burn you out. And happiness. So I think about joy and happiness and the one that's most important to me,

which is contentment. Okay. Apatheia, they used to call it. What did they call it? Apatheia. Sense of serenity, maybe. Serenity. I like contentment.

And have you ever heard, I know you've heard this, you know how there's that saying, God never closes one door without opening another. And then somebody added, but it's really a bitch waiting in the hallway and i have added but if you can figure out how to do it with grace and humor you will have accomplished something because we spend most of our time waiting in the hallway yeah and that's where the contentment comes in and happiness for me is something like right now I decided I wanted to sew these zipper bags,

which is only noteworthy because I don't know how to sew. So I taught myself how to sew. Was it a new business for you, zipper bags? I know, yeah, because I'm broke. And yeah, no, I just, I collect fabric and every once in a while, because you feel like you have to do something with it. So I'm sewing'm making these zipper bags and I feel I'm happy when I finally, after watching 15 YouTube videos, I make one.

Megan's thing right now is crocheting hats. See? Yeah. She's like, we have, I'm not kidding you. There's everybody. You'll be getting a hat. Good. A crocheted hat. I did crochet a knit, but it's Southern California. Yeah. There's everybody. You'll be getting a hat. Good. A crocheted hat.

I did crochet a knit, but it's Southern California. Yeah. There's no reason. That doesn't matter. There's one coming your way. There's tons of them coming. But that's happy to me. An accomplishment.

Accomplishing something I'm trying. I think that's creativity. Being creative and living a creative lifestyle, whether I'm acting or writing the next great american novel just you know this oh this bottle of water looks nicer on this shelf oh there you go right you know and that it's the contentment and the contentment and here's the key is gratitude based yes i think that's right. I think that gratitude is the silver bullet.

If you can somehow get to a position of gratitude, then you're going to be all right. But it's hard. I mean, some people, I mean, I think I wrestle with it. I don't wrestle with gratitude so much because I've got a lot to be grateful for, but I can imagine, you know, there are some people I hear their stories and I think i think it is and i we've talked about this quite a bit as well that when people say when did you go over your a b c when did you go over

your fear or your when did you realize it was okay or my favorite when did you realize you had made it in show business and you go if you can use a phrase like made it in show business you know fucking nothing about show business yeah nobody makes it in show business forever you know i mean it's like what you did is you've had to run a good luck enjoy it gratitude yeah because it is it is an odd thing that so now in your life where are you at you still doing the improv stuff with those guys? I guess not. I think that if I'd have known that we did some big show in Vegas. It was you, Drew, and Colin, and Ryan.

Colin was often on the road, but Ryan, Greg Proops, Jeff Davis, and assorted other people that would fill in but you know we had some big fabulous show in Las Vegas and then that was

sort of sort of it you know I didn't yeah Whose Line Is It Anyway is that what they were calling it?

Well no no we couldn't call it that because that was litigious if we had done that so it was Drew Carey Whose Line Is It Anyway

Drew Carey Whose Line Was It it was Drew Carey Imp improv all-stars i remember improv all-stars yeah yeah yeah that's right and so you know that was great in fact i was watching the news this morning 20 years ago this month or something shock and awe the war in iraq oh and you went yeah you know you and drew went to iraq remember. I didn't find out until later. I was the first woman entertainer in Iraq after shock and awe. And I didn't, you know, I went, I love the USO. I just think it's so important.

And then I went some other place. I went to Saudi Arabia, did my show. And then you and I went to the Persian Gulf. Yeah, Bahrain. Remember that night with the sailors? Oh, Lord. That was one of the worst and weirdest shows in my life we had we did a show we got to Bahrain we were jet lagged we were doing

a show for the USO and they said actually there's been a change of plans all the American servicemen are not being this all leave is cancelled all we've got is an australian minesweeper with 300 drunken australian sailors who have no fucking idea who you are they've been out to sea for six months all they want to do is drink drink and sing yeah drink and sing uh it was unbelievable i've i've never bombed so badly you you made me you i got up i mean i'm not even a stand up Yeah I get up and they go Take off your blouse Take off your blouse And I go

No you And he did Yeah he did To be fair He did take off his blouse I do remember that I go I didn't want to see you Naked

But then Then you had that That guy with you From your show He had a guitar And he was saying Oh yeah My sister is a lesbian

Everybody now My sister They're all singing And they all started singing Yeah But this is my favorite part You come up to me And you go and he was saying, my sister is a lesbian. Everybody now, my sister, they're all singing. And they all started singing, yeah. But this is my favorite part. You come up to me and you go, don't even say anything about me. Just get up there.

Because I was the MC. Just say, you know, ladies, Craig Ferguson, I'm going to burn their hair off, you said to me. And I go, okay. And I get up and I go,

Craig Ferguson. And I get down and you're like, hey, you know. And I mean, you're so funny, but they were so drunk. And they were like, and you're like, good night. And you were gone. That's right. I think I was on for like 30 seconds.

I was like, oh, and I ran back up. But then every single one of them got in line for an autograph. Yeah, I know. It was the weirdest thing. I mean, but they were really drunk, I mean, God bless them. They'd been at sea for three months and somebody told them, I think actually their commanding officer said,

now you blacks have got to go to this thing. The Americans have put it on and act grateful. They'll be free beer. Actually, I think it was that guy who introduced us that said that. It might have been him. Yeah, I remember that. I think it was that guy who introduced us that said that. It might have been him. Yeah, I remember that.

I think that was it. So, you know, I had that children's character for a while. That was profoundly fun because I was improv-ing for children, which was so tender and sweet and clean. That was really fun. But I wanted to take that to a bigger audience. And so I go pitch it at netflix can you say that on and they come back and they go we love her she can come back with anything she wants but we already have an older woman doing a green room kind of show and it was

julie andrews you can't really complain if julie andrews beat you out i mean and then that didn't last yeah but here's what i wanted to say. With gratitude, as with courage and bravery, you act as if until you really have it. That's very good. But also about gratitude, I've discovered you have to start really simple. Like in the morning, you wake up and you go, I'm awake. I'm alive. That's good. And then I have gratitude for my teeth.

I'm always happy to have teeth. Yeah, I mean, the noise they make when a lozenge bumps against them, it's impressive. I'm going to get that lozenge out again. And then I'm grateful that I have toothpaste and a toothbrush, hair and a brush. I start really simple because I think it's so easy for us to say, oh my God, I'm so not enough. I'm not Craig Ferguson.

I'm not Kathy Kinney. I'm not this. And the truth is that we're more than enough and that we just have to take a look at it. It's so easy to say negative things and tell a negative story. That's why everyone does it. That's why everybody does it. But that's why it just takes a little more work to be positive.

And then once you got it, you got to share it. I think it's interesting you say that because I think people are negative because negative, it makes you sound smarter. Like if you're negative, it makes you sound like you're a

detective or something like yeah well i've noticed things and things aren't so good because i've noticed them and you know and i and i think if you if you're happy you kind of sound a little dumber like did you see my sweater it's got a picture of a dog on it but i think that's a lie yeah because if you think if you look at really smart people, they're not negative. I think victims are glorified on TV a lot. It's a bit of a fetish right now. It's totally Midwest. I remember one time going home to visit my mom and we went to see some friend of hers.

She said, oh, my grandma sat down on the toilet on Friday night and she couldn't get get up and she sat there for two days no poor old thing it hurt yeah and i was like really you know so i mean do people want to you know it sees stories you see serial killers and you know stuff the stories like that but you don't see as many stories about i woke up i had teeth i was grateful it's true it's hard to make a like a netflix documentary about you know somebody who was nice to everybody it's like you know the tinder swindler and you go well yeah but most people on tinder aren't swindlers so it doesn't mean that it's that everybody's bad it's just like here's the bad one and that's the story and it's kind of i understand it everybody's got to do a thing but for like serial killers one of the serial killers silence of the lambs is a great movie and they should have just stopped at

that just like that's it. It's fine. Psycho, Silence of the Lambs, maybe every now and again, make another one. But you don't have to keep glorifying these thick as pig shit, evil killers. It's crazy.

Why? They're awful. Awful people. I had the news on, and it was about the anniversary of this Chowchilla kidnapping 26 little kids on a bus oh don't jesus and they were kidnapped and they were like four or five years old and one of them was 14 you know it was school bus and they kidnapped them these three

men from wealthy families three young men kidnapped them and buried them in a semi-trailer under the ground. And then we're going to ask for like, I don't know how much, millions of money or whatever. And then, and here's the thing, they figured out how to get out. You know, one of the kids was 14 and they lifted him up and he got them all out of there. And those three men- Did he get them all out? Yeah. And they were fine you know i mean physically fine some scrapes and bruises and things like that yeah it's one of those things that you don't get over easily because it shakes your trust yeah but don't

you think that that's same thing true for childhood shakes your trust a little bit yeah because because i think that you know part of the loss of innocence is realizing that everyone is flawed i mean my sister lynn who you know i think is a very nice take on this she said you get to blame your parents until you're 30 and then after 30 it's you and you go oh shit uh but i think that's kind of it kind of has to be that at what point you're going to shake no matter how bad it's been i mean and it has been bad and some people just can't shake it and i understand i'm not saying you have to or put laying down a manifesto for anyone but i know for myself that and also when you kids, you realize how badly you're fucking up.

You think, oh no, this is going to leave a mark. I'm going to hear about this in therapy. You know, it's, for the most part, I think people try their best. For the most part. Yeah. Some people are just rotten shits. I think everybody does, 99.9%. But, you know, I was at some, having like a physical, you know, healer thing.

And she said, I want you to think back three lifetimes ago. Uh-oh. And I was like, I mean, does she mean when I was Cleopatra or, you know, somebody else? Or does she mean, I mean, I could so clearly see my parents, their parents, the parents, you know, so clearly see my parents, their parents, the parents, you know, the things that they had suffered and what had been brought to me. Yeah. And I thought, oh my God, we just were so, and again, this brings me to that. Either you are lucky enough to have the grace to step away and get over your childhood or

not. Yeah, I think that's right. I think what I've noticed now, there's a contemporary desire to inflict shame on people. I think that there's a, you know, if you don't think like me, if you don't agree with me, if you don't share like me, if you don't agree with me, if you don't share my

Weltanschauung, it's a German word for worldview. Yeah. But the idea is to make someone, I suppose for want of a better word, you call it cancel culture, but I don't think that's a real thing. I think what it is, is shame. It's like to try and take the joy from somebody else. Do you know what I mean? It's like, so if you are, and people do it to themselves too, don't you think? I do.

You know, that, the idea of, you know, I'm ashamed of what, not succeeding. That's like, that's like being ashamed of every time you swing for a pitch and miss it that's crazy that's crazy to feel shame for failure there's there's appropriate what i'm trying to get i think is there are appropriate things to feel shame for and there are inappropriate things to feel shame for now i've i've got both but you know what i mean i do i also think you made me what popped into my head when you were saying that which is why my face was scrunching up, was that I was raised United Methodist. Okay. You know, but I have so many friends.

Actually, I just think of all of Ireland, basically. Yep. And I think that sometimes religion and religious beliefs can make getting over yourself hard. Gets in the way, for sure. And yet, if you go to, particularly if you're talking about Ireland or our background is mostly Christian-based, then at the core of that was about forgiveness, wasn't it? Yeah.

I thought that was the whole idea. Yeah, I think that whole well but you know yeah yeah i think that the people are you know it's a again they're individual peoples within each ideology they're gonna yeah it's such a personal journey i've always liked the idea of i never really the whatever religion i was in nobody talked that much about God or a higher power or any kind of divine being, which is fascinating. So I think that at some point I finally thought, you know, I've got to make a decision. What do I believe?

And, you know, I told you that story the other day that sometimes I cry and sometimes I don't about the little old woman I helped across the street in New York who told me that all of her friends had died and that the only person she had to talk to was God. And she talked to him like he was her friend. And did I think that that would bother him? And I said, no, I think that's how you're supposed to talk to your higher power, your divine being, your God or whatever.

And she was so, so sweet. And that happens to everybody I think all your friends just you get older and everybody passes away and then you're just sitting there and how do you hang on to hope and so there's a couple things I think that any success that I've had in my life is because I was a reader you know I just love to read and travel read and travel and i think it's so important to just widen your horizons but as you grow older being a lifelong learner and hanging on to your curiosity are the things that will keep you young that's what my goal in life is one i'm trying to lead a european lifestyle i see because i'm sort of you know i'm kind of driven gotta accomplish this and accomplish so i just wanna

how do i relax stay in the moment and little coffees croissant maybe black turtlenecks and the occasional cigarette well you do have that. I wish. Yeah. I quit smoking. I'm allergic to all lactose and dairy and I'm gluten intolerant. So my world has gotten really small. It's like, why even go to Paris? If you're just going to sit at an outdoor cafe and drink a glass of water and watch everybody walk by. Yeah, but you do get to sit in Paris and watch everybody walk by.

Yeah. Which is why I'm going. I told you I'm going to go on a cruise of the Netherlands where I will watch my friend Nada eat and drink her way through the chocolate and beer factories of the Netherlands. Cheese and tulips as well.

And heroin, I believe, if you're in Amsterdam. Heroin? No, not heroin. What is it? Hash as well. And heroin, I believe, if you're in Amsterdam. Heroin. No, not heroin. What is it? Hashish. Yeah, because as I say, I haven't been in Amsterdam

since I was a teen and I bought a finger of hash that turned out to be shoe polish and I smoked it anyway. I was hard up. Cathy, you are a joy. That's why you were here. You too. And you remain so. I wish we had longer Yeah. Kathy, you are a joy. That's why you were here. You too.

And you remain so. I wish we had longer to talk. We do, but not here. No. Good day. Good day. Want to know how to leverage culture to build a successful business? Then Butternomics is the podcast for you.

I'm your host, Brandon Butler, founder and CEO of Butter ATL. And on Butternomics, we go deep with today's most influential entrepreneurs, innovators, and business leaders to peel back the layers on how they use culture as a driving force in their business. Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level. Listen to Butternomics on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez, and on my podcast, I like to talk to everyone from Hall of Fame athletes to iconic musicians

about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. I had the best dad, and I had the best memories and the greatest experience. And that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.