Joy, a Podcast. Hosted by Craig Ferguson - Matt Williams

Episode Date: April 16, 2024

Meet Matt Williams, the creator of hit shows Roseanne and Home Improvement among many other successful projects. Matt never focused on red carpets and glitzy parties during his lengthy and successful career in the entertainment industry. Rather, he says, what sustained him, guided him, and inspired him were divine glimpses of goodness and grace. Listen to Matt talk about that and so much more in this interview. Matt’s new book Glimpses is out now and he is donating all the money from this book to children's charities worldwide. Buy it now, available everywhere you get your books. enJOY! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling, as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said, like, in my head for, like, 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez.

And on my podcast, I like to talk to everyone from Hall of Fame athletes to iconic musicians about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. I had the best dad. And I had the best dad and I had the best memories and the greatest experience. And that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Want to know how to leverage culture to build a successful business? Then Butternomics is the podcast for you. I'm your host, Brandon Butler, founder and CEO of Butter ATL. And on Butternomics, we go deep with today's most influential entrepreneurs, innovators, and business leaders to peel back the layers on how they use culture as a driving force in their business.

Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level. Listen to Butternomics on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Craig Ferguson Fancy Rascal Stand-Up Tour continues throughout 2024. For a full list of dates and tickets, go to thecraigfergusonshow.com slash tour. See you out there, thecraigfergusonshow.com My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness.

Matt Williams has written or created or both some of the biggest sitcoms in American history, some of the most controversial sitcoms in American history, some of the most controversial sitcoms in American history. And now he's, well, he's kind of looking for God. Matt Williams. I want to talk to you about your book in a little bit, because it's a book of, first of all all I haven't read it now that's full disclosure I've read the blurb for it and now I will read it because I do

read and I want you to understand that I will read it and when I was doing late night people used to say well you got to read the book before you know the celebrity is on the show you are the celebrity at this point and I'd say no I'm not going to read the book or watch the movie or see the TV show because then we're both talking about something we already know about. See? There you go. And I had this conversation with Leno who's like, no, that's totally wrong. You're so rude. That is so rude. I said, all right, well, I'll skim through the movie, but a book's a commitment. A book is a commitment. You've got to, I mean, that's a few days, you know, and if I'm talking to authors every day, that's my whole life. My whole life is reading books, which is not a terrible life, I guess.

When you, because your book is a spiritual book. It is a memoir told through humorous essays and what I call spiritual musings. There is a memoir told through humorous essays and what I call spiritual musings. There is a spiritual thread. Yeah, it seems to me like the blurb I read that it is about something that... Luke, you tell me what the piece is about. God is very much a part of it. Right, so God's a part. Are you a religious person? I am.

Okay, what stripe is your... Well, my stripe early on was Lutheran and very strict Lutheran. And then that's one of the story threads is my evolution from God being a pissed off bearded guy sitting on a cloud. Yeah, the angry Santa on a cloud. Angry Santa, yeah, the petulant parent waiting to throw you into hell. And then as I matured, I went, wait a minute, why do you want to spend time worshiping that God? And then as I started exploring other religions and going, if God is love and there's a divine mind, a spirit, a holy mystery, whatever, the ultimate creator, I want to lean into that rather than the pissed off parent. And so that's part of the journey is that spiritual journey is tracked in the book, I hope, with humor and humility.

Well, I would imagine so. I mean, given you're writing credits so far and we're getting to that, it seems like you are capable of writing the occasional humorous musing, the occasional joke. Where did you end? Did you end up in a particular organized religion or did you just wander out of Lutheranism into a kind of soft, rainbow-colored, informal? I don't use the term Christian because that has all this baggage. As soon as you say Christian, Bible-thumping, hair-sprayed evangelist, calcified Christianity, my way or the highway, misogynistic, judgmental, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, none of that is Christianity. I don't. So I say instead I'm a follower of Christ. i am a christian in that sense right because whether you can wrap your head around the historic jesus being god incarnate or not right at least look at what the man was preaching and teaching right be kind be compassionate take care of the poor feed help others yeah who can argue with that yeah i i i think that my feeling my personal feeling about christianity because i i'm i think i'm on a similar kind of stretch you know kind of search as you are i'm looking for something that kind of makes sense

in a god sense and you know i was i was raised in uh presbyterian scotland which is not a million miles away from lutheranism it. It's kind of the same. It's like it's got all that predestination and you can try being good, but it's already been decided and all that kind of stuff. And you're kind of screwed and let's not have any pictures up anyway. Like you suck and you're not even allowed to have art.

It's like, what the fuck? But I became fascinated in recent times. I'm sure you have read C.S. Lewis and G.K. Chesterton and the Christian Apologist, right? Yes. Through reading them, I was fascinated by, particularly C.S. Lewis, who seems to be able to put it into bite-sized chunks

and kind of entertainment-style language that I can read and understand and digest pretty easily. I ended up at the Desert Fathers. Have you come across those guys? Are you talking Thomas Merton? No, I'm talking Origin of Alexandria, Evagrius of Pontus. No, I'm not. I'm talking St. Anthony. Meister, Eck Anthony, St. Hildegard, Julian. Hildegard's awesome! Yeah, yeah, yeah. all things, God being alive in all of us, as opposed to that floating figure out there,

that Calvin mentality of, oh, I've got to beat myself up and crawl in broken glass for God to love me. And I thought, wait a minute, Hildegard, Meister Eckhart, they talk about the divine spark that lives in all of us. Well, that was origin of Alexandria as well. That was like second century Christian mystics. Yeah. So I'm fascinated by that.

I think a lot of that Lutheranism, though, a lot of that, I mean, look, if you're Lutheran and this is pissing you off, well, let's be honest, you were pissed off before we started anyway. But I think that all of that kind of punitive form of religion is a product of the very necessary Reformation. Yes. After, you know, during the, I mean, because even the internal Reformation that the church had, Catholic church had at the time, they were trying to find a way.

But origin of Alexandria was excommunicated 500 years after he died because he said there can be no physical representation of God that's insane God is if God is everywhere then how can you draw a picture of it that's silly and he was excommunicated 500 years after he died because I feel like if your business is selling art and pictures and bones and relics and candles and little gigas and chachkas, then it's going to be tricky if you say, well, there can be no physical representation of God. You can't have a drawing of the sapphire pavements of heaven. You're going to have to just go there in your head. And of of course, he even went, like, you can't do it in your head either. That's not allowed. But some people are very strict.

Are you very strict? Do you feel you've arrived at a belief system, or are you still kind of searching? Oh, I'm always evolving. I think the older you get, the more you read, the more you travel the world, you keep evolving. I think that's one of the problems with organized religion is it gets locked in, like I said, calcified. It's this way. It must be this way. It's dualistic thinking. There's right and wrong. There's God and the devil and nothing else. Pete Walsh Ones and zeros.

Pete Walsh And I go, I don't believe that. If God truly, and I do believe God lives in all things. Right. And animates all life. Yeah. And right now is expanding the universe we're sitting inside. Right. Well, then I better start changing my concept of God, and I'm still evolving. I'm still trying to learn. I read as much as I can about other religions, and, you know, when you start to break them down, really break them down, they're kind

of all saying the same thing. Pretty much. Which is don't be an asshole. Just be kind. Yeah, don't be a dick. And take care of people. Yeah, that's right. It's kind of that simple.

Be nice. Be nice. Yeah, I know. It's kind of interesting. But your period of your writing career in Hollywood, I mean, so you started on, the reason why I'm going to this is because it's not a period which is renowned or an area which is renowned for spirituality of any kind, really. I mean, there's a lot of yoga, but, and yoga's great. But, you know, it's like, but yoga and juice aren't, that's not where it ends. So you were working, you started on, I guess, be the Cosby Show, right?

Very first television show. That was your first job as a writer. As a writer. Right. It was the Cosby Show. Which was in LA, would be the- In New York. New York City.

In the 80s, was it? In the 80s? Yeah, it was in the 80s. And it was, it started in Brooklyn, Avenue M in Brooklyn. Right. At studios way out there, and then eventually moved to Astoria in Queens. Right, in Queens. So the Cosby Show, and then with two other writers, did the spinoff.

I created the spinoff, Different World. Right. And then after three and a half years on the Cosby Show, I left, created Roseanne. Right. Then made a deal at Disney, and then created a couple of other shows, and then eventually created Home Improvement with David and Carmen, my two partners. Right. So you have worked on some of the most successful shows.

Man, you must be so rich. That's the eye of the needle heaven thing. I'm just mentioning it to you. I'm pretty blessed. Well, those were the good times, man. Those were the, I mean, that's when sitcoms made money. Yes. So you're working, you weren't like a head writer on Cosby, right?

You were a staff writer? Staff writer. You were in the writer's room? Yeah. So A Different World was your first, like you were running it? No, we just did the pilot. Okay. A man named John Marcus and Carmen Finestra, who later became my partner at Wind Dancer.

Right. The three of us took Bill's idea. I think Bill got the created by credit because it was his idea, and we got it developed by credit or something. But we wrote the pilot, produced the pilot with Tom and Marcy. The show was launched. Then we went back to the Cosby show and continued writing because we were, the staff was small, five, maybe six writers.

And a sitcom writer? Yeah. At that time, five, maybe six writers. And a sitcom writer's room? Yeah. At that time, that's tiny. Yeah. And so when you have three of them peel off to create a pilot, so then we came back to the show, and then while working on Cosby,

Tom Warner and Marcy Carsey said, do you have any ideas you want to pursue? And then that- Then you went into- Roseanne. Roseanne. Now you've worked with both Cosby and Roseanne for wildly different reasons. Their legacies are tarnished pretty badly. Cosby, very obviously.

Are you still in touch? No, I've not talked to Bill. He actually shot a video when New York Stage and Film honored my wife and I many years ago. And he did a video and I talked to him then, but that was 15 years ago. Yeah, it's funny that because I, it's people, people say, I never met Bill Cosby, but people saying, did you hear anything? And I was like, actually, no, but I wasn't in that world. I wasn't anywhere near it. Did you hear anything?

There was no vibe about it or anything? Well, you heard things about maybe women being around, but being a serial rapist, no. No concept. I was shocked. Oh, you mean that he had a lot of women around, but you didn't know that he was abusing women? Yeah, at all. And what was tough was he was kind of my mentor i'd learned comedy

you hear the tapping yeah is that that's bill's that's bill that's it's somebody with a hammer above us going shut the hell up maybe it's the lutheran god oh yeah lutheran god are you right i got the lightning bolt, guys. So you weren't aware of any of that going on? No, of course not. It's a professional environment, I guess. It's a strange, strange thing. It's kind of very upsetting. So you moved from Cosby into Roseanne.

Right. Now, Roseanne, that show was based on her stand-up, right? That's how you guys built around it? Or was inspired by it or something? It was a combination of two things. I went to Tom and Marcy and said, I want to do a show about three women who work in a factory in the Midwest where I grew up. Because a friend of my wife's has said, you know, we have a real support system. These women who work in the factory, this was in Detroit, all support each other and babysit each other's kids. And if one of them gets sick, they buy groceries. And I went,

isn't that intriguing? And so the original concept was three women, one married with a husband and children, one divorced with a child and one single, these three women. And they said we like this idea uh we love the idea of female driven you know sitcom and then they said we have someone we think should play the the married female on the show right look at her stand-up well of course it's roseanne she's got a very strong feminist point of view so we started developing this and that became the point of view of the show. And I will give her credit because she brought that whole feminist point of view. She's got a very strong voice. A very strong voice.

But the real key to the success of that show was John Goodman. Yeah. Because when John, at his, quote, audition, he was more of a chemistry test. When he walked into the room with her, and within seconds he told her to move over, she told him to shut up, and they started, and Tom and Marcy turned to me and said,

there's your show. That's the show. That's the core of your show. That's the core. They're both spectacularly gifted performers. Yeah, and John Goodman is one of my favorite actors of all time. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he's amazing, and he's just gotten better and better.

He went through a journey personally as well. Didn't we all? Yeah. The Craig Ferguson Fancy Rascal stand-up tour continues throughout the United States in 2024. For a full list of dates and tickets, go to thecraigfergusonshow.com slash tour. See you out there. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling

as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic, life in marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is. I think he was like, oh yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast, Misspelling.

When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa, I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians, actors in the world.

We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love, and everything in between. This life right here, just finding myself, just relaxation, just not feeling stressed, just not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of. I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell

and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you've got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly. Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone. You're going to you're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Want to know how to leverage culture to build a successful business? Then Butternomics is the podcast for you. I'm your host, Brandon Butler, founder and CEO of Butter ATL. Over my career, I've built and helped run multiple seven-figure businesses that leverage culture and build successful brands. Now I want to share what I've learned with you. And on Butternomics, we go deep with today's most influential entrepreneurs, innovators, and business leaders to peel back the layers on how they use culture as a driving force in their business. On every episode, we get the inside scoop on how these leaders tap into culture to build something amazing. From exclusive interviews to business breakdowns, we'll explore the journey of turning passion for culture into business.

Whether you're just getting started or an established business owner, Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level. This is Butternomics. Listen to Butternomics on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Did that ever get in your way? Did you ever hit the wall with booze and drugs and all that kind of stuff? No, no.

Not booze and drugs. I think that, no, I was never addictive in that sense. I was very tough on myself. Yeah? Perfectionist. And part of what, and it's overcompensating for childhood crap. And so I would really beat myself up for not being perfect. Right.

Because going back to that angry guy. Yeah, yeah. If you weren't perfect, you couldn't be loved. Right. And I address this in the book. In fact, one of the chapters is called Knee Slapper, where my earliest memory was making my mother laugh, doing impersonations and pratfalls because i equated her laughter with love and approval well that's why you work in comedy and i go of course it doesn't take a boatload of psychiatrists to figure out why you end up being a comedy writer how did

it manifest itself in the perfectionism though how is it negative in your life there's no you're there's never any satisfaction or joy right because it's never good enough. Right. Even if it's number one, having two number one shows almost back to back and going, it's not enough. There's got to be more. And I've said this in other interviews that any time I created something and it was inspired by love and guided by spirit, it succeeded big time. Right. Any time it was inspired by competition and driven by ego, it usually crashed and burned. Right.

Because you're out here in Hollywood, the hamster wheel of Hollywood, you start running faster and faster, and you look over your shoulder and go, well, he's got two top ten shows. I should have a third top ten. I need a fourth top ten. That movie opened big. Then my movie's going to open bigger. And you go, put on the brakes. Wow, you've lost perspective here. Well, you see that in the billionaire race and all these ridiculous billionaires with

the super yachts and the, oh my God. And I think what's kind of strange about it and what i feel very grateful for was i feel exactly the same and i think probably my motivations are extremely similar to you but what happened to me is when i got to do late night and every night you meet i was meeting some of the most successful people in show business they're coming through and i realized that the mensch to douchebag ratio is exactly the same as it is in the average bar in the average city anywhere in the world. Some people are nice. Some people are douchebags. And most people are kind of,

travel between both, trying to stay on the mensch as much as possible. And what I was intrigued by was that more success oftentimes looked, to me anyway, to bring more personal unhappiness. I feel like there's almost a religious parable in that, I think. Because I've always felt, as someone who's sober, I've been sober for 32 years. Because I've always felt like as someone who's sober, I've been sober for 32 years. In the 32 years I've been sober, of course, there are times when you think, when it gets dangerous and you might get drunk. The times when it's been dangerous in my sobriety have not been times of adversity.

There have been times of, you know, I'm doing pretty good. You know what I mean? I maybe deserve a little respect around here. And that's when I lose a sense of perspective. Now you were and are an extremely successful writer. So at what point in the perfectionism or did it break for you? Was there a moment, was there like a bottoming out or a topping out moment where you go, there's never going to be any good in this. I think what happened was I kept pushing and every career is like a wave. It has its peak. Oh, sure. Yeah. And I hit that, but I stayed in the business longer than I should have. I kept pushing. I kept pushing. And I touch on this in the book, is when you stop creating from passion and you start

generating product. Right. They even call it product. They even call it product. And you got to be careful. I know. And then I was at a pitch meeting at a studio after having created some very successful shows. And I was pitching a 10-episode arc for a new series. And in that, I said the lead actor and the female love interest next door have their first kiss in episode 10. And someone in the room stood up. This is not a creative. Right.

It's not the president of the network. It was a salesman who sells shows into syndication. Right. And he jumped up and went, no, no, no, they can't kiss. And I went, excuse me? He goes, they can't kiss. And then he started quoting data. New girl, when this character kissed this character, they dropped exponentially in this key demographic.

kiss this character they dropped exponentially in this key demographic and start and when that happened my brain exploded and splattered all over the wall and i went what the fuck am i doing i literally got in the car yeah drove back to the wind dancer offices yeah and told my partner at wind dancer i told david i said i'm closing up shop. I'm done. I said, because now it's not the tail of the dog. The flea on the tail is wagging the dog. Sure. Totally. But what's interesting is, because obviously there are young, creative, artistic people coming up. Oh, of course. But they're not here. They're not coming up here. They're coming up through the internet. They're coming up their own way.

They're finding ways through because they will. Right. But you're right. The idea, particularly after COVID, when people pitch shows now, they do it on Zoom calls. How the fuck are you going to know if the energy is a thing is going to work on a fucking Zoom call? And people say, ah, there's 500 channels and nothing to watch. I tell you why there's nothing to watch because the people in charge of it hate you and don't fucking care. All they want is your money.

They don't give a shit about if the show is good or not. They don't fucking care. Nobody fucking cares. That's not our brand. It's like your brand? What the fuck are you talking about, your brand? You know, but that's why one of the reasons I left. brand, which the fuck are you talking about your brand? You know, but that's why I,

one of the reasons I left. So I thought, well, wow, I'm better. No, I'm, I'm fine with,

uh, I think a certain amount of bitterness in show business is good. It means you're a participant, but I think if you, if you go too far, then it closed. I didn't want to become, I didn't want to become cynical.

I honestly, I closed up shop. I moved back to our become cynical. Honestly, I closed up shop. I moved back to our farm in New York. And I told my wife, I literally turned to her one day and I said, I don't want to die with all these stories still living inside me. So now you start writing, find another way to write. I had all these stories that were stirring around. And almost as a cathartic exercise, I started writing what had

been bubbling in my unconscious and deep in my heart. And it just started kind of pouring out. And then I felt liberated because I didn't have network meetings. I didn't have studio meetings. I wasn't being noted to death by 20 executives. And so these essays, these humorous essays and these musings started pouring out. And I went, my gosh, this is the best I have felt in years because I'm back to creating as opposed to grinding out product. I'm creating something from my heart. And it really felt good. And it evolved into the book. Well, I think it's

healthy isn't it i mean it's also it's a natural progress of an artist as uh as perhaps you uh enter a different age period in your life i mean you don't you know it's got a funny thing i was talking to you know jay leno uh only in passing all right leno leno and i are friends and he's a terrific guy and we were talking about a comedian we both know, you probably know this guy. But I don't want to mention him because we were I was saying, you know, we were just talking a little bit about his act and how it was so much better now than it had been at the peak of his success that he was actually much better now. And Jay said this lovely thing about him because all Jay cares about is the comedy and the cars

obviously and Mavis and that's it that's the three things he cares about and he said yeah what's really interesting about him is he's grown into an act his act before was kind of eh but now he's older it's like oh he's a really interesting guy

I really enjoy his comedy now. And I think that that's true of many artists. And because Hollywood deifies the young, artists who are good when they're young are not necessarily always going to be good. You know? True.

And, you know, anything of any value I've done was well after 40. Yes. Maybe before that. Well, I think what happens is you get simpler. The title of this podcast is Joy. And you really start appreciating simple joy. It's not accolades.

It's not approbation or approval. It's not the red carpet. Simple. That's awful. That carpet is awful. And that's what people see on their screens and aspire to be a part of that. And you go,

the greatest joy is usually pretty simple, having breakfast with your kids or cuddling with your wife. It can be so simple. It's health, I think. It's mental health and physical health, and I hate to say it, but spiritual health as well, probably. I was just going to say, that goes back to the spiritual aspect.

You're looking for your validation as a human being out there. You can't win enough awards to ever feel satisfied and love yourself. It's good to get awards though, isn't it? Oh, well, it's nice. It's very nice. Or I would like, I should probably say. Yeah, I would too. I haven't won any.

You won a lot of green dead presidents. I think you're fine. Okay, I'll buy some awards. Yeah, buy your own. Buy the Emmys. You'll be fine. But you're fine. Okay. I'll buy some of them. Yeah, yeah. Buy your own. Buy the Emmys. You'll be fine. But you're right. It's an inside job.

But I think in order for the business to survive, certain areas of show business to survive, it has to be presented as an outside. It has to be aspirational, particularly in the current wave of selling lifestyle as an entertainment. Right. So I hate to single out the Kardashians. They're not bad people.

But they created a genre which is kind of empty. It's like you can be like me. Well, you actually can't in any way you want to be. I mean, it's like I don't get it. It's like you're watching Roseanne. Nobody watched Roseanne and said, I really want to be i mean it's like i i don't get it it's like you're watching rosanne nobody watched rosanne and said i really want to be like rosanne you watch rosanne you go fuck we really like the corners aren't we you know i mean that's what that's what happens is a it's a completely different approach to it where are you with rosanna i i don't know no contact no contact

all right no okay i wish her well i don't have any idea where she is. Did you guys have a, I'm not talking about her specifically, but that show, was that, because that was a hugely successful show. Yeah, it was. It was. Did that make life difficult on a day-to-day basis? Yes. Yeah?

Yeah. Yeah. But it ended with me leaving the show and making a deal at Disney and creating Home Improvement, so it worked out pretty well. Yeah, he's a pretty easy guy to be around, isn't he? Yes. Yeah. Any run-ins I've had with him, he's like, hey, how you doing, buddy?

Tim is a gentleman. He is, right? I love Tim. Yeah, yeah. I always kind of impress with him as well. He sticks to his guns. Yeah. You know.

And he's been sober for how many years and functioning and enjoying life. Yeah, and he's one of those guys that I think is, I mean, by his own admission, he's sober and he's been sober for a long time. And I look at him and I go, yeah, you're not faking this. You really were. You were pretty bad back then, now weren't you? Well, there's evidence of it. We got the mug shots. But he's a guy that turned his life around.

And even when he was living that pretty bad period, he was still a good guy. His heart. Inside, he's a good man. I've seen a lot of that. Yeah. I mean, over the time I've been sober, you see guys that their behavior would tell the world one thing.

Right. You know, like fighting and disappointing people and stuff like that, and maybe making bad choices about business decisions, which I think was Tim's problem, getting into the wrong business perhaps. But then the way that you see people turn that around, I think it's something to do with I can't live with being like that do you know what I mean it's like but if you you talk about perfectionism which was I think oh look I'm not I don't want to put words in your mouth but it kind of says like when I said it wasn't drugs and alcohol you said

no but it was perfectionism so it's kind of your I always thought perfectionism, I heard a guy talking about this, it's fascinating, he said perfectionism is narcissism in reverse. It's narcissists looking in the water and despising everything he sees. It's as equally out to lunch as an idea. But perfectionism in society is still kind of, people will say, oh, I'm a perfectionist. Nobody will say, oh, I'm a narcissist, because they wouldn't say that, because it's a negative connotation. But people will say, well, you know, I guess I'm just a perfectionist. Well, stop, stop doing that. That's bad. What you're talking about is really deep-seated trauma as a kid. I think so, probably. And coming from a tumultuous household and divorce and all kinds of craziness, which I write about in the book.

Was there alcohol problems? I always go to that. Oh, yeah. One part of it's alcohol. Yeah. My mother. Mother was an alcoholic? Oh, yeah.

All right. Career in comedy beckons. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And the family and the, again, as the oldest child, you feel responsible for your siblings and everyone. Right. And as the oldest child, you get caught in the middle. And I remember, Greg, I was a sophomore in high school when the family blew apart.

Right. And I won't go into all the details, but it was as ugly as it gets. and I won't go into all the details, but it was as ugly as it gets. I consciously sat down and said, I am going to be so perfect, I will be beyond reproach. And I went from being a BC student to a straight-A student, captain of the football team, came to the prom, leading all the plays. My high school yearbook is pages of accolades and awards.

Right. And I consciously said, I will be so successful. Right. I will be beyond reproach. Now, 40 years later and 32 years of therapy, I kind of worked through that and go, that's bullshit. I don't need to do that anymore. Right. And then finally, somewhere in my late 50s i went i kind of liked me i i i'm okay but was that a result of of being so successful i mean did that play into it no no no no

no it because as we started this conversation that hamster wheel i've only had two number one shows i need three number one shows because how many does chuck lori have okay i need it and you're going wow this is the thing about chuck's really a happy guy though everything's fine if he was here he'd be like no i'm good but it's a it is an interesting thing though that you know without the success, would you have reached the, you know, who was it that said this? Kipling, maybe? The road of success leads to the palace of wisdom

or something like that, I'm paraphrasing. It does the road of success to you, like you get what you were looking for, you find it doesn't work, and then you start dealing with it. Because what I'm trying to get at is, had you not been successful, would... I would have been successful in other ways.

You're right. I would have been a really good high school English teacher and a football coach. Right. And I would have been a winning coach because I'm a leader. I'm a natural born leader. I'm really good at inspiring people. And out here, if you're going to be a leader, whether you're a CEO or a room runner or a show runner, you lead either by inspiration or intimidation. Yeah.

Well, these days it's got to be inspiration. To me, it was always inspiration and setting examples. So I would have been successful. There's no question. If I had stayed in Evansville, Indiana, where I grew up and become a bricklayer, I would have been a very successful bricklayer because I was driven and I held myself to that standard. Right.

Even when I was working as a hod carrier in my teen years for my uncle, I wanted to be the best hod carrier, you know? Can you still, can you lay bricks? I can lay bricks. See, that is actually a skill that I respect. I can do that. Laying bricks and home improvement stuff, joinery, like now these are skills that I value.

So many people say, oh, I can play the Enormo Dome. I'm like, yeah, okay, that's fine. I know a lot of people that can do that. How are you with shelving? I'm not great with shelving, but bricks I can do. I even tell my students, I go, I learned how to make movies and TV shows on the construction site because it's not that different. You've got a foreman, like you have a director, you have a blueprint, which is your script or the blueprint. You have a team, you have equipment, everyone's got to be communicating.

You have to know where to put the scaffolding. And then to take that even further as a writer, it's the same as bricklaying. to take that even further as a writer it's the same as bricklaying you have to put one brick at a time one word at a time line them up into sentences stack those sentences on top of each other until they become a paragraph right and so the mentality behind the work and so i i get frustrated with artsy fartsy people who go oh just, I couldn't write today because a butterfly landed on my shoulder. And I just, and I go, bullshit. You show up every day. You write.

And you write. You've written three, four books. You know, you show up, you write, you lay the bricks. Yeah. And at the end of the day, you go, that wall didn't exist. That three pages didn't exist at seven this morning. They do now.

I can go kick back. Okay, I'll do it again tomorrow. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is. I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went.

Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast, Miss Spelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce.

Whoa. I said the words that I've said, like, in my head for, like, 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest

athletes, musicians, actors in the world. We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love, and everything in between. This life right here, just finding myself, just relaxation, just not feeling stressed, just not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of.

I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're gonna die being you. So you gotta constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly. Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you've come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone. You're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Want to know how to leverage culture to build a successful business? Then Butternomics is the podcast for you. I'm your host, Brandon Butler, founder and CEO of ButterATL. Over my career, I've built and helped run multiple seven-figure businesses that leverage culture and build successful brands. Now I want to share what I've learned with you. And on Butternomics, we go deep with today's most influential entrepreneurs, innovators, and business leaders to peel back the layers on how they use culture as a driving force in their business. On every episode, we get the inside scoop on how they use culture as a driving force in their business. On every episode, we get the inside scoop on how these leaders tap into culture to build something amazing.

From exclusive interviews to business breakdowns, we'll explore the journey of turning passion for culture into business. Whether you're just getting started or an established business owner, Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level. This is Butternomics. Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level. This is Butternomics. Listen to Butternomics on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I was kind of friends of a friend with Maeve Benchy, the Irish, right? And Maeve used to write 2,000 words a day. She'd get a tub of sangria, a big jar of sangria,

and she would write 2,000 words a day. And at 2,000 words, she stopped. Like, even if it was going great, that's fine. 2,000 words, finish the sangria, I'll have to do something else. Probably more sangria. But it is about inspiration, perspiration. It's that whole thing about it is it's about work and you really have to do it and it's quite interesting that because i i wonder because so much work can be done for you know useful tools ais and you know like i remember when final draft came in as a writing program people i was not properly right

and if you're not writing on a typewriter, you go, isn't it though? I mean, I think it is. I tried, I don't know if you've ever tried this. I put into AI, write me 15 minutes of Craig Ferguson's stand up material. Yeah. Yeah. It just wrote me some, like it changed some gags that I had done, and like changed the words.

Now, like that's not the choice I would have made. Right. And so, I mean, maybe, maybe it can do it at one point. I don't think so. But it's kind of interesting though. I wonder if it could do first drafts. Like maybe an AI could do a first draft of a story for you. My daughter was kicking around an idea for a story that was set in Patagonia. And she sent me the first chapter.

The outdoor store or the country? The country. Right. Okay. Got it. Not the parka. Right. And she sent me the first chapter and she said, what do you think?

And I said, this is really quite good. It's a little impersonal in spots. And I gave, she said, this was completely written by AI. She said, I gave them the machine, the facts, and said, write it in the voice of magical realism. And it came back in that. And I had no idea. But I did sense some coldness, emptiness in some of the parts and i think that is that spiritual element because the difference between craft and art at least in my mind right craft can be duplicated by many people art is when you pour a piece of your spirit into something if you see an original van gogh right you feel oh yeah it's live photograph of live. Photograph of Van Gogh versus Van Gogh.

It's alive. Starry night. It vibrates. It does. I went to see it in the Met recently, actually. And the Starry Night is on a tour in the Met. And I looked. It has its own light source.

It's luminescent. Yes. It's crazy. Yes. And I've seen photographs of it. I know the image. Yeah. But when you see the thing.

Go to Rome and see a bernini sculpture and you look at this and you go there's light coming out of that marble and it's alive it's vibrating and i believe that is the spirit of the artist being poured into the object i love that idea i think it's i you know what i did notice when i went to italy was like all these like amazing statues in florence and rome and you know and cc stuff. But if you go out into the really podunk rural churches, the religious art is crap. I mean, it's just bad. I was like, is that Jesus or is that a bear climbing a fence?

What is that? And I was like, this is our Lord on the crucifixion. I'm like, no, that's a bear climbing a fence. I don't see that at all. And I kind of loved it even more. Well, circle back to your saints, or the excommunicated guy, see? You shouldn't be creating art.

There you go. There's a lot of religions, they don't like that. They don't like, I think in Islam, they don't like imagery either. No imagery, don't be doing that. You can write things, you can have calligraphy, which is very nice, but no imagery. I don't know, how do you feel about that? You don't have rules about it, I guess, right?

You know, how can you, you know, when people refer to God as him, I go, wait a minute. Well, that's absurd. How can you take something that is incomprehensible, unfathomable, the greatest mystery, and reduce it to human form? One of the essays I wrote that didn't make it into the book was called Mr. Potato Head. Right. Remember the old Mr. Potato Head? Oh, I do. Yeah, yeah. I said, okay, so if God is this ineffable, eternal, creative energy, what we do with each religion is we grab our little parts

and we create a Mr. Potato Head so that image looks like us. And when you think about that, it is true, you know, that we change. If you go from indigenous people with the, you know, the sky dancer or the bison heads, Wonka Tonka, the great spirit, to is God white bearded on a cloud? Is God mocha colored with dark brown eyes? I love, I've said this before, James McBride wrote a memoir called The Color of Water, because his mother was Jewish, his father was African American. And when he was a small child, he asked his mother, said, what color is God? And she said, God is the color of water. Oh, okay.

And I went, that's brilliant. And that's the title of his memoir. That's pretty cool. It's very cool. Do you look at different religions? Are you fascinated by other belief systems? Yeah. I'm not a scholar by any means, but I read, I study.

As much as my small brain can comprehend, I really do try and connect the dots between all religions. So I do that too. And I became fascinated for a while with Akhenaten. You know Akhenaten? Akhenaten was Tutankhamen's father in ancient Egypt. Okay. So for a couple of thousand years in ancient Egypt,

there's like, you know, you get the guy with the dog head, he's this guy, and you got all the different gods. You know, there's the, you know, there's the sphinx-y guy that's in charge of the lady that's part, you know, giraffe and all that and all these different gods. So Akhenaten comes along. The first, I believe along the first I believe the first documented monotheist who says no there is his name was Amenhotep the third I think he was

the pharaoh and he said no all these gods that's not true there's one god his name is Aten or its name is Aten and it is the sun and they worshipped the sun god so all of this thousands of year old religious infrastructure that's set up in ancient Egypt now much longer than than from the time of Christ to now right that's all been going on is now dismantled so and they move the capital of the city 40 miles into the desert, and they worship Aten, the sun god. And it upset a lot of people, as you can imagine. And then when he died, Tutankhamun, who was his son, for safety reasons, says, you know what, let's go back to the old gods,

and I'll go back to Tutankhamun instead of Tutankhaten because I am the son of Amun-Ra and they took it all back. But I was fascinated because it was the first time I've come across the idea that the image of God was not humanoid or anthropomorphic in any way.

It was the sun. Now now he did that thing i could ask him where you only way you could talk to him is through me which is a a common you know piece of grift and like oh no you have to speak the special language uh you got to talk to me that'll be 40 bucks well in recent years i've i've been reading there's's a Rabbi David Cooper wrote a book called God is a Verb. Okay. And Buckminster Fuller and others believe God is a verb. And that opened up my mind, rather than this anthropomorphic being, this noun, what if God is the creative energy that lives in all things? So, and I'm not, I'm way in over my head here, but if only 5% of matter is what we see and

can touch and feel, 5%, 25% is dark matter, right? Right. 70% is dark energy, and no one knows what it is. Right. dark energy and no one knows what it is right but it exists and it is what is pushing the whole universe out and why we keep expanding as a universe see i think this is an extrapolation of renny descartes i think this is descartes so the cartoon renny descartes when he says i've annoys it annoys everybody obviously when he does it but it says I'm gonna rather than God be a revelation like you know a burning bush or a angel coming from heaven or a sudden dream or

stuff like that I will prove the existence of God through reason which upset the church a lot but but he was clever about it but he said how do I how do I go about it I thought it was fantastic look maybe if I'm telling you something, you already know. Forget it. I'm just, the idea of what he said, I'm going to doubt everything. This is where I'm going to start. Complete doubt, right? So he said, I doubt, you know, the universe.

I doubt God. I doubt, I even doubt myself. There's only one thing I cannot, I cannot not doubt. And that's, I can't doubt that I'm doubting. I am doubting. It is an absolute, you're locked in. You can't doubt if you're doubting. So if I'm doubting, I've got to be thinking.

It's just, I have to be thinking if I'm doubting. And if I'm thinking, then I am. Cognito ergo sum. I therefore I am I exist and I thought that's fantastic and he uses extrapolates the reason I love Descartes I like look I'm not the first one to say that but I but I'm fascinated by the idea of the revelation versus reason and I think what I see in a lot of spirituality for myself, and I think with you, correct me if I'm wrong, is that looking for reason doesn't necessarily make you an atheist. No. It just makes you look for, it doesn't make you even lack faith. You're just like,

I'm interested. Exactly. This goes back to calcified, which is unchanging. This is what I believe. This is what I was told as a child. Right. And if I think differently, I'm wrong. God gave us free will, gave us a brain, you know. We have creative energy. I believe we co-create our life with God, with the ultimate creator. I think we're in a constant, creative, symbiotic relationship with the ultimate creator. And we can create, but because we have free will we can create we can split the atom right and bring electricity to millions of people or we

can split the atom and blow up a town all right you can take a knife and make a salad or kill someone we have that free will we're not we're not amoebas just responding to stimulus all right this is good in in good in a personal sense, but let's look at the problem of evil. Like when the innocents are whatever that is. Right. Well, you know, when something awful happens to a child or someone who doesn't deserve it.

Right. How do you, because this is a stumbling block for me every single time. It's a stumbling block for everyone. Like I can't believe that the universe is benign when this can happen. Yeah, but maybe the universe isn't benign. You know, does God just create us and let us bounce into each other and see what we do? Like a game show, you know? Are they going to destroy or create or whatever?

But it depends on your belief. If you believe in reincarnation, which I'm not saying I do, but I am exploring that. If you believe in reincarnation, to fully understand the mind of God, I have to experience what it is to be the victim as well as the perpetrator. I have to understand every aspect of human life, and I can't do that unless I triumph and suffer, starve and excel, and through many lifetimes, then I become like the mind of God. Now, I'm not saying I believe that, but that's one answer to why evil exists. And I can't even begin to answer that question. And that's why they go, I don't believe in God because he allows

innocent people to die. But I go, God's not swooping down with a sword and killing these innocent people. Man is, humankind is. So what is motivating? And then that gets back to dualistic thinking, which is, oh, it's the devil, and which used to drive me crazy. Anything bad, the devil did it. Well, then you abdicate all responsibility for your life. No, other guys came and did it. And then ran away. It wasn't me. Yeah.

Yeah. I know. Hey, listen, it's a subject which is not small. It's a pretty big subject. But I tell you one thing, it has proved my theory. That comedians and comedic minds are the modern school of philosophy oh and a thousand years from now they will discuss people like us the way they discuss aristotle plato and uh you know like carrot top will be you know archimedes

it's lovely to talk to you. I could talk to you all day. Let's do it again. All right. Thank you, Craig. Good luck with the book. Thank you. All right.

Thanks, man. Bye. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Angie Martinez, and on my podcast, I like to talk to everyone from Hall of Fame athletes to iconic musicians about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. I had the best dad and I had the best memories and the greatest experience. And that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Guess what, Will? What's that, Mango?

I've been trying to write a promo for our podcast, Part-Time Genius, but even though we've done over 250 episodes, we don't really talk about murders or cults. I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati of cheese, so I feel like that makes us pretty edgy. We also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food and how do dollar stores make money? And then, of course, can you game a dog show? So what you're saying is everyone should be listening. Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.