Joy, a Podcast. Hosted by Craig Ferguson - Rita Wilson

Episode Date: November 28, 2023

Rita Wilson, an American actress, singer, and producer. Listen to Craig & Rita talk about religion, Rita’s family history and her home town of Los Angeles. EnJOY! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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For 10 years, I've been obsessed with one of the most bizarre and audacious cons in rock and roll history. We were all facing 20 years and all that good stuff. The lead singer tried to pull off an English accent, and they went on the road as the zombies. These guys are not going to get away with it. Zombies are too popular. Listen to the true story of the fake zombies on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage.

I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness.

Meet Rita Wilson. She's a producer, she's an actress, and she's a hell of a laugh. I was just thinking on the way here today, I thought, because the traffic was bad, I know you know the traffic was bad, and I was a little grumpy, and I thought, I'm a bit grumpy today, I'm a little, I'm a man called Craig today. That was such a great film. Which one?

The Man Called Otto. Oh, yes. I was a man called Craig. Thank you. I was very cranky. Yeah, I get it. Where did you find that? Fortunately, it came in a DVD packet through the Academy. It was another movie then?

It was, I saw the Swedish film first. Oh, I thought you got the script or something. No, we developed the script, but I found it through the Swedish movie and then I realized there was a book to it. So I immediately tried to get the rights to the book, which we were able to do.

And then got a great team together. I love that movie. Really good. You directed that movie, right? No, produced it. Produced it, okay. Which as everybody knows, if you're really in show business, you really did the job. You know what? I can be unequivocally honest about that and say yes, true. It is! Because the only one time I directed a movie and I didn't produce it, I've only

done like three or something, but I directed a movie and I didn't produce it, I've only done like three or something, but I directed a movie and I was like, everybody's telling me stuff and they're getting in my way. Then I realized the people that were getting in my way were the producers and I'm much happier being the producer

than being the director. It's too hard. Yes, it's true. So let me ask you because there was a thing I wanted to ask you about, which is you're the only person I know. Now, I'll preface this by saying I have become fascinated recently with pre-Roman church Christianity.

Oh. Just fascinated by it. That's so interesting. I'm reading everything I can about it. I've become totally obsessed with it, as is my wife. And you're the only person I know who I think is in the Greek Orthodox Church, right? I am. Which is the split.

Now, you tell me. You tell me. What's the difference between, if you can, and I don't want to force you into that theological. Yeah. But I know that the split happened round about then, right? You can't. I'm so bad at history. I really am.

But I will tell you what I believe is what I understand to be some of the differences. Right. And in Greek Orthodoxy, which was the older religion. Right, the Byzantine stuff. Exactly. It was before Catholicism, before the schism. What happened in the schism, I think, is that the Catholics wanted to form a different form of Christianity.

And what Greek Orthodox don't have is a pope. So we don't have a person that we say, this, you're the top guy, and everybody, you know, you talk directly to God. Which the Christians didn't have either. Right. And so I think that's one of the differences. Secondly, this is my own observation, having a lot of Catholic friends and going to a lot of Catholic churches in my youth, is in the Greek Orthodox Church, church, you often will see pictures of Christ carrying the cross on his back. Or you will see pictures of him with the disciples or the apostles. or the apostles. There is always a story told of the life of Jesus in the church, and there you will find one picture of him on the cross being crucified.

So it's part of the story, it's not like... Yeah, which I think is just, I don't know if that's my own observation or if there's intention to that. You know what I noticed when I was in Italy a couple of years ago, I go there a lot because I love it. Yeah. And I noticed that the beautiful artwork, you know, in the Vatican or in the bigger Catholic churches in Italy, the very impressive artwork is not mirrored in the rural churches. And you see some really crap pictures. It's really fantastic.

Like I was in the church, and I was like, what's that? And they said, this is the crucifixion of our Lord Jesus. And I'm like, that to me looks like a bear climbing a fence. It's not. It doesn't look anything like it. And I love the idea that there's, you know,

valiant efforts by people who are not as talented to make, because of course not everybody's a great artist just because they're, you know, depicting the crucifixion or the resurrection. But here's the thing. Well, there's also one other thing. What? In the church, in our church, Greek Orthodoxy, priests can marry a priest and they can have children. And I think this is important, especially if you're going to talk to someone about your marriage. How does someone know what a marriage is like if they've never experienced having a relationship with someone? priest, if you are married and then become a priest, it's fine that you're married.

But if you become a priest, you then cannot get married after the fact. Is that in the Catholic Church? In the Catholic Church, priests can't marry at all. But that was only, that was from the Second Vatican Council or something, that was because of

priests were leaving their inheritance to their children. That's right. And the church wanted it. That's right. So it was not really, no one, celibacy, I mean, as a spiritual aesthetic, it goes back to Buddhist aesthetics and pre-Roman Christianity, because I became fascinated about it, because I think someone, I think there's someone

at the door with coffee, actually, hold on. It's the priests, they're coming to get us. It's the Catholic Church. Hey, wait a minute, you say a bad thing about some of the art in Italy. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Thomas. That's so great. So there's this guy I've become fascinated by.

His name is... And I want to know why you became fascinated with the Greek Orthodox Church. Well, it's not so much the Greek Orthodox. I don't know enough about the Greek. I've been surrounded by Catholicism my whole life. I'm not a Catholic, but I grew up in Scotland. There's a lot of Catholics around, and I have friends who are Catholics. And so it wasn't mysterious to me.

But I didn't really have much contact with anyone who was in Greek Orthodoxy. but I didn't really have much contact with anyone who was in Greek Orthodoxy. And as I was reading about the, really I became fascinated by it because of being sober. Oh, yeah. And sobriety was something that they were interested in. It's not part of anything I do, but I was, you know, being sober in terms of a sober mind and a sober soul and sobriety,

not just the absence of whatever ails you, but actual sober thought is something that they talk about. And I became fascinated by the Desert Fathers. And in particular, someone who was, I believe believe connected to the Greek Orthodox or is celebrated in the Greek Orthodox Church is Evagrius of Pontus. Have you heard of him? He's a fascinating figure. He was a theologian. He was a desert father. So it was pre-Roman Christianity and these aesthetics,

they go out and it really is a mirror of Christ's 40 days in the wilderness. And they lived that. But they lived there all the time. St. Anthony lived there and all that. And what it became, Evagrius was a theologian. Pontus, I think, was like Northern Turkey or something. I mean, everything was all different then. Right.

And he came up with the eight thoughts, eight demons that will separate you from the divine. Oh, I love this. It's fascinating. And the eight thoughts are, and you'll recognize them when I start saying them, they are sloth, avarice, lust, and suddenly it's the seven deadly sins. Right.

And the seven deadly sins come from... But he's got eight, so what was the eight? Well, he put, and this is what I love- What got edited out? Sadness and sloth were put in together. Oh. And I thought, oh, that kind of makes sense too. Wow.

But they thought about demons in the way that we talk about kind of psychosis or stuff, or addictions or stuff. And I just became fascinated by that. And I started wandering into it. And I knew when you were coming in today, I thought, oh, no, you are. I don't know how connected you are to your church, though. Are you very? Very connected.

Oh, you are? Oh, yeah. Oh, good. So I can ask you lots about it. You can ask me lots about it, but I don't know how informed I'll be about it. All right. So to be fair, you're not speaking in an official capacity for the Greek. Correct. Did you get married in the Greek church?

I did. In the church that I got married, it's here in Hollywood, St. Sophia Cathedral. It's the church I was baptized in, that my sister got married in, that I baptized my nieces in, that

I got married in, baptized my granddaughters in, that I baptized my nieces in, that I got married in, baptized my granddaughters in, and then also did the rituals for my mom and my dad there. So it's kind of like it's been there all my life. It's kind of beautiful. They must get so much money out of you. But we won't stay, that's a church, isn't it? Does Greeth Orthodox, does it have the Eucharist? Does it have... Everything.

All right, that's all of that? We have all the sacraments. We have all of the, we don't have a wafer, but we actually do bread and wine. All right. And do you believe in transubstantiation? Okay, now this is where I'm probably going to get beat up by, you know, I don't know, critics. But, oh, God, you know, we still do the sipping of the wine in the communal cup.

And during COVID, I just stopped taking communion because I was like, I can't do this. I just, I can't. Well, you famously were an early adopter of COVID. Yes, exactly. You and Tom both got it right early. You guys were like, I was like, that is fast. You guys are very good. We were the first council of COVID.

What? That was, I mean, you got it in Australia, right? Yes. I remember reading about it because I was like, oh my God. First of all, I didn't even know that it was in Australia. And nobody knew if you were going to die from it at that point. I mean, of course a lot of people did. Yes, but nobody knew. It was all terrifying and strange.

But I have enormous faith in my church. And at the same time, there is science that says maybe you don't want to be sipping off of a spoon during COVID. I think that's okay. And also, I don't know what the ritual is in Greek Orthodoxy,

and I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think it has to be communal. Or maybe it does because it has to mimic the Last Supper. I don't know. I don't know. It was going to be like, it's just been the way it's always been. Right. Well, thanks, Jane. As a kid, it was like that.

You know, I literally have gone to church early for communion on the most obscure, like if it's during Holy Week, the most obscure morning service that I can take communion. And I will get there and I will sit in the front row and I will be the first person up for communion. I'm going to get to that before anybody else. First up. I think that's very wise, but it does kind of... Can I ask you something? Yeah. Question. How long have you been sober? 31 years. And I'm happy to say that.

Oh, my God. Yeah, I got sober when I was 29. That's incredible. Yeah, it is. Actually, it's one of the reasons why I become fascinated with religion, because the longer I'm sober, the more I think, that's kind of a miracle. It is a miracle. Yeah, kind of.

I don't really know. I mean, it is kind of a miracle. I don't know how it really happened. And I find myself, you know, interested in these things. Completely curious. I do think it is one of the things that I can only think of the word miracle when it comes to that. Because it's like I have seen people transform their lives. And it's because of that.

It's like one day you're this, and the next day you're somebody completely different. And the day after and the day after. The reason why I became fascinated by it is because in being sober and trying to remain sober and trying to improve your sobriety, I guess, is that I became interested in what happened before. In my case, there was an organization,

which I won't mention for the reason of traditions, but it came into being in the mid-1930s. And I thought, well, before that, of course, there were temperance movements and all that kind of thing before that. But there was an amazing story about, do you know the story about Roland Hazard? No. But there was an amazing story about, do you know the story about Roland Hazard?

No. Roland Hazard was a drunk from a rich family in the northeast of America in the 19, I think it was the 1930s, I guess, early 30s. And he was a hopeless case. And eventually, the Hazard family, because they had a lot of money, sent him to be treated by Carl Jung. Wow, that's a different kind of rehab. It's crazy, right? So they sent him to Roland Hazard to be treated by Carl Jung. But before that, they had asked Freud and Adler if they would take him. And they were like, nah, he drunks.

There's nothing we can do. I mean, they're hopeless. Wow. So they sent Roland to Carl Jung. Roland Hazard works for a year with Carl Jung. And Carl Jung says, I think you're good to go. I don't know enough about it. Good luck.

So Roland makes it as far. He was in Switzerland. He gets as far as Paris. He gets drunk. And he goes back again. He says to Carl Jung, I don't know what to do. And Carl Jung says, I think you're going to die. I don't think there's anything I can do.

And he said, there's nothing. And Carl Jung says, I think you're going to die. I don't think there's anything I can do. And he said, there's nothing. And Carl Jung said, well, look, once in a while, like St. Paul on the road to Damascus, a person has a religious experience, Ignatius of Loyola or something like that, and a profound spiritual change that so affects their psyche, that they can stay sober. But unless you get that, I don't know how it's going to happen. And so what

Roland hazard, he comes back to America, he joins the Oxford group, the Oxford group morph into the organization that I'm talking about the end, they start to try and recreate Bill Wilson, who founded Alcoholics Anonymous, starts to try and recreate through a series of steps a profound psychic change that mimics what was a religious experience before that. In order to alter the psyche of the alcoholic so much that they can stay sober. Wow. Isn't that fascinating? And he did that. Well, I think in my case, yes.

The psychic change that occurs, because this is not really about me, but I'm interested, because you're a religious person and you've always been a religious person, has there ever been a point where you thought, I don't believe it? I don't believe it. No. So you haven't had to make that turn.

No. My mom was really the person who was the bringer of the faith. Right. who was the bringer of the faith. My dad, he must have chrismated or converted before he married my mom. Converted, because chrismation is if you are already baptized in a religion, but you're going to get married in the Greek Orthodox Church. Right. Or not married, because you can get married if you're Christian. You don't have to be Greek Orthodox to get married in the church.

Chrismation is if you want to convert from, let's say, Catholicism to Greek Orthodoxy. Right. So that's kind of slightly different than a full conversion. Was your dad a Christian? So my dad must have converted in order to get married in the church. But after he died, I did a TV show called Who Do You Think You Are? Oh, yeah. You know, the genealogy show.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we went back to his village, and everyone, everyone was Muslim. Oh, okay. Everyone. Right. And my dad always explained it this way. He said that where he was from, he was born in Greece, and where he was from, the area,

was always being occupied by some other coming and going. And for many, many years, obviously, it was the Ottoman Empire. Right. And during that time, my dad said that many years back, they were Christians. And during the Ottoman Empire, they were sort of told that they had to change their religion, convert to Islam, and also to change their names to sound more Islamic. Wow. So, I think... So, how'd you end up with Wilson, then?

Because that was the street we lived on when my dad became a citizen of the United States he was like I just had a thought is that why you no that's not the reason why the ball is Wilson I think that it is

is it? yes I mean oh my god I never even thought of that I feel like I just learned something really profound like in Castlewood no because there is the name of the volleyball. Well, there's a Wilson brand, there's a Spalding, and there's a Voight. Everybody would have thought Spalding Gray.

Wilson has a ring to it. I think that's lovely. I feel like I'm weirdly excited about that. There's something very human about it, and I think that's great. No, it's great. It's great. It is great. So that was it.

And then, you know, I met so many of my relatives who are Muslim. And it was just so interesting to me because my dad never really talked about it. He didn't, you know, there was a lot of things I found out about my dad then, you know, after he passed away. Was your, well, your dad was an immigrant, and was your mom an immigrant too? My mom was actually born in New York,

and then raised in a little tiny village, she's Greek, on the border of Albania and Greece. And when the war broke out, well, first they went there when she was four years old and her father died. And so her mom, my yaya, grandmother, was left with four kids. And the relatives in New York said, what are you going to do, a widow with four children in New York? Stay in the village and we'll send money back to you.

Because my grandfather had a children in New York, stay in the village and we'll send money back to you. Because my grandfather had a business in New York. And so they stayed and over the years, I think money stopped being sent. And then around the time of the end of the war and also the beginning of the civil unrest in Greece, they knew it was time to get out. And so they couldn't just walk the border, even though my mom was an American citizen. So they had to escape and climb over these mountains and make their way onto the Greece side of the border. And then eventually made their way to Athens, renewed their passports, and then took a ship over to...

That's a real... And my dad has an amazing story too. My dad's story is that he... I didn't know any of this until I did that show. So you as a kid, you don't know this about your mother and father? I knew this about my mother. I did not know. I knew that my father was in a labor camp but i did not know

there was an earlier part of the story which was he was in the army the bulgarian army and while he was at the bulgarian army he saw seltzer bottles, right? From somewhere. And he took the 12, there were 12 seltzer bottles, and he took them. And knowing what I know about my dad, he only did things for other people. So I thought he must have had a reason for doing this. And my grandfather had a, he was a hunter, and he had a hunting lodge, let's call it, small lodge, in the mountains, in the Rodopi Mountains of Bulgaria. And I think he must have thought, oh, my dad could use these bottles for when he's out on a hunting trip. Anyways, he was arrested, he was court-martialed, and he was sentenced to a prison. For taking empty bottles? For three years, yes.

Three years in prison for taking empty bottles? Yes, exactly. See that? They were trying to make an example of him. Could the great bottle-thieving epidemic? Yes, exactly. It was all about bottle-thieving. So who's in charge?

No, it's true. I mean, they had all the documents there. That's crazy. So it wasn't like there wasn't anything being hidden. It was just literally, and this prison was very, very dangerous and treacherous. Anyways, he gets out, and he meets a girl, and they get married. Right. And she gets pregnant, and I knew none of this.

Right. This is not your mom that we're talking about. No. Oh, my God. No. And she delivers a baby on December 26th. I want you to remember that. And so on December 29th, she dies from complications of childbirth, things that nowadays modern medicine would

be able to take care of. Of course. So, my dad is now the father of an infant. He's living with his in-laws. The tragedy of this beautiful young woman dying. Right. And this little baby. So, this was after the war.

I don't know how they kept that baby alive because what do you do? There's no milk. There's no formula. They could barely have enough bread to eat. And four months later, the baby died. And his name was Emil. It's so like, so crazy. Terribly sad story.

Very sad. And I think this is one of the reasons why my dad was like, I'm out of here. I'm getting out of Bulgaria. And he tried- You never knew any of this? Never knew anything. But what's ironic is my sister's first child was born on December 26th, and my second son was born on December 26th. And I always thought on Christmas and that next day, which was always a big celebration in our family, that my dad must have been thinking about his firstborn son, Emil. And knowing that like, yeah, what is this about? I have baby, everybody in my family is having babies on December 26th.

It's funny, my wife has a grandfather who is not the same story, but he was from a country that no longer exists in that area, the Republic of something something or something and he came over and they could never find out what he did but he would always carry cash and he had a farm in massachusetts and he would always carry cash in the bit of his overalls just in case just in case because you never know when you have to cut and run nothing Nothing takes away that fear. I think it's... No, it's true. It is strange because you don't get free of it. I was talking to...

Do you know Dax Shepard? Yeah. Dax? Love Dax. Yeah, he's great. He's great. I was talking to him the other day, and he grew up in kind of difficult circumstances in Detroit.

Yes. And I grew up not rich either. And I don't think that feeling ever leaves you. It doesn't matter how much money you make. It's like, oh, no, we've got to keep some aside. My dad was a bartender. And so he would work and he'd get tips. And so he would bring the tips home in a Crown Royal felt bag, you know.

I do know that bag, actually. Yes, okay. Yeah. And on Saturday mornings, we would spread out all the coins on the kitchen table, and we would take the quarters and put them in the little bank rolls of coins. I love this. Write the account. I would still do this. Oh, totally.

It was like meditative. Yeah. I would still do this. Oh, totally. It was like meditative. He would do that. And that's why I always think like, wow, you know, you've got to take care of the people who are in those positions that, you know, they're going home with those tips and taking those tips to their families and putting them in roles and making a living out of it. My mom used to keep a secret money in her wallet, like $20. And I'm like, but it's not secret because you put it there. I know, I know. But it wasn't in the part where she would actually access it, right?

Right, it's in the other bit behind your driver's license. Yeah, I feel that too. My dad would take money and he would put it in a lead pipe. So he would just like whatever bills he would like. It was like his bank account. He would put it in a lead pipe that had screws, lids on each end in case there was a fire. This isn't Los Angeles, though. You're growing up here.

In the Hollywood Hills, yes. That's crazy now if you you grow up the child of immigrants with a shocking story

but in Hollywood so I feel like I always believed in the not believed in the myth that sounds wrong but I I was always much more

impressed by Hollywood and Hollywood-ness until I started doing the late night show and then you just meet everybody. And then you just realize it's like, you know, the douche to mens ratio is just the same as it is everywhere else in the world.

Some people are great. Some people are assholes. And it's fine. But until that point, there was a mystique about Hollywood that I really believed in. Did you never have that because you grew up here? Or did it crumble over time like it

did for me? No, it was just my hometown. And I knew that people came here from all over the world to pursue their dreams, but this was my hometown. I went to Hollywood High School, LeConte Junior High, which is right down the street. Hollywood Boulevard was where we would go and get back-to-school clothes, your bike. Yeah, you can't do that in Hollywood Boulevard. No, you can't do that. If you're buying school clothes in Hollywood Boulevard, it's a completely different look you're going for. It's a whole different kind of school. Yeah, it's bad. That would be bad.

And we would go to movies at the Chinese Theater and go to Musso and Frank's on a special occasion. And it was just home. But I started modeling first at 14 years old, right here at Hollywood High School. I was discovered. Well, this sounds a little... And I put that in quotation marks. Yeah. Talk me through the discovery a little bit. It was first day of school. Yeah.

Hey, you want to be a model? Yeah, exactly. Was that really it? No, no, no. It was kind of like that, except they were legit. They were from Harper's Bazaar magazine. But I didn't know that at the time. And the photographer was a very famous photographer. Nowadays, he's still alive.

His name's Albert Watson. He's incredible. Right. Scottish, I believe. Is he really? Yes. And so is his wife, I think. So he saw me walking and asked, they had permission from the school to be there, if he could take some pictures.

Can I take a picture of that? Can I take a picture of that? She's very beautiful. And so they took some pictures and he asked the next day if we could arrange another time to meet. And so we did and took more pictures. And that ended up being the first modeling job I ever had, which was for Harper's Bazaar magazine. Which is very swanky.

Very swanky. Very, very swanky. It was the year 18-year-olds got the vote. Okay. So it was their January 1972 issue, I believe. Is that when 18-year-olds got the vote here? Yeah. Yeah.

So, but after that that i just started working and the first job i got to get my screen actors guild card was the brady bunch and that was at paramount studios now still to this day if i walk into a driving into a studio walk into a sound stage I have that feeling of it's magic. It's a very specific smell. It's a climate. It's a volume of height. It's the color of the walls. It's the energy. Now, like certain studios are putting plaques on the outsides of their soundstages, like this is what was filmed here. And it's fantastic. And all good things have always happened to me at Paramount Studios. So I love Paramount Studios. So it was a trippy thing because I don't know why this, I was lucky, but with all of that, that I was exposed to and all

the different kinds of people that I was exposed to, I never had anything terrible happen to me in L.A. I mean, it was just like... I wonder if that's because you knew the neighborhood. I mean, like, not just knew the neighborhood like both the streets, but you kind of like, if you grow up amongst it, if you're kind of, you speak the language almost. Well... I think if people come here, particularly young women, if young women come here and they're wide-eyed and they're, you know, it maybe attracts, I don't know.

I don't know. I mean, because I had a lot of friends that bad things happened to. Yeah. So, and yes, they did come from other places, but look, it... Has the town changed, do you think? Has it changed from that? I think it's much scarier now. It's much scarier now.

There's just... It feels like it's everywhere now. The world is Hollywood now. There was still some kind of accountability. The town was not as big as it is now, for one thing. Now, I think L.A. is like 20 million, just L.A. That's a lot of people. That's like

bigger than some countries. Four times the size of Scotland. Yes, exactly. But I feel like there were things like the Christmas parade on Hollywood Boulevard, where my dad, we would come down

and, you know, he'd pack up in the car, we'd park blocks away, and then, you know, he'd carry me on his shoulders and we would wait for Nudie to come down in his Cadillac. Nudie? Nudie. Nudie was a big Western guy. Did you ever know that guy?

Yeah, like Nudie on Hollywood Boulevard is a different Nudie now. Nudie on Hollywood Boulevard, that goes nudie now. Nudie on Hollywood Boulevard. That goes back to that other kind of school. Yeah. But that, there was a, I moved here in 1995 to Los Angeles. Yeah. And even then, there was a kind of sleepiness.

Yes. To the town. It changed. It really did. Yes. And I can't, I can't quite tell when. I think it's something to do with Uber or smartphones or GPS or something. Something.

Something happened and it got really, really different. Or maybe I just got older. No, no, something did change. It would be so fascinating if somebody could analyze that and say, what was the difference? What was that shift that happened and why? I don't know. I really don't know. Maybe phones or computers.

Computers were out in, what, 96, 97? Yeah. I don't know. I think when people started, you know there used to be the sign where you couldn't, there was a sign that said, no walking to the Hollywood sign. And I lived up in the hills.

Yes, yes. And you couldn't walk to the Hollywood sign, but you actually could walk to the Hollywood sign, but they would put signs up saying that you couldn't. And you couldn't wander to the Hollywood sign but you actually could walk to the Hollywood sign but they would put signs up saying that you couldn't and you could wander up there and that was always the walk that I did.

I'd walk up Mount Hollywood and down by the observatory and it was amazing. It was so great. It was beautiful and I did it recently when I was here and it's packed.

Everybody knows where to go. Are you kidding? It's packed. There's like people above the sign. There are all tourists up there. They all walk up there and I mean, I get every right to go. It's just there's like people above the sign. There are all tourists up there. They all walk up there. And I mean, I get every right to go.

It's just so many. I've never walked up to the Hollywood sign. What? Born and raised. Don't even know how to get there. No. I don't even know how. Well.

I wouldn't want to bother the neighbors up there. There's nobody up there but coyotes and snakes. Really? Okay, good. Well, now tourists. Now tourists. You missed your shot. Yeah.

But I mean, there yeah but I mean there were I mean nowadays if you go up there I think it's very like it's rude right you don't want to disturb the residents and things like that there's paths up to it you can walk up to it from other it's alright and it might be rude I don't know

I don't know no you can get up through canyon I'll tell you about it later it's fine it's a can walk up through Canyon. It's fine. It's a secret way up. Because the Batman caves are over that way. I know the Batman caves.

Well, you just go up past the Batman caves. And then you can walk right. It's a really steep walk up the hill. And then you walk over to the left and you're above the Hollywood sign. Did you ever go horseback riding at Sunset Stables? I did. And go over into Burbank for the night and then come back. Have you done that? Yes! Oh, I love that!

It was so much fun. They still do it, apparently. Yeah. On a full moon or something. I fell off a horse recently. Do you ride horses? I do. I love horses. I like horses, too. Do you ride English? No, I have a western saddle. In Scotland? In Scotland, yeah. But I...

We put the western saddle on him. My wife's very, very, very horsey. Right. Not in appearance, although. No, she's not horsey in appearance. She's gorgeous. She's gorgeous, but she has a beautiful pony. We put this, I think they call it the girth on the English saddle.

Yes. They call it the girth? Yeah, like the bridle. Not the bridle, the girth they call it the girth on the English saddle. Yes. What do they call it? They call it the girth area? Yeah, like the bridle. Not the bridle, the girth. Yeah, the girth. So I think it was pinching his little leggy bit. Oh, no.

And he bucked. He's only ever bucked twice. Once I saw it when he was lunging. I was lunging him, and then the other time I was on him, and I came off. He's a big horse, too. Wow. And I'm 61 years old i've fallen off many horses and i've noticed over the years that uh it hurts a lot more now for sure

do you ever have an accident on your horse i've been thrown from a horse but nothing that resulted in injury. My injuries are from the two times I tried snowboarding because I ski. That hurts so much. Snowboarding, why? You fall on your ass all the time. And your feet are stuck together on a board. You can't escape. No.

It's like I like to sit at the end of a row in a movie theater in case I have to leave. Exactly. And I feel the same about skiing and snowboarding. I don't want my feet tied to the... Exactly. Yes. I got to go. Bye. Yeah, I have to leave. And I feel the same about skiing and snowboarding. I don't want my feet tied to the... Exactly. Yes. I got to go.

Bye. Yeah, I got to leave. I'm sorry. Something came up. I got to leave. Let me ask you a question then. Do you ever get a fear of flying? I used to.

I don't anymore. That's interesting. Want to hear why? Yeah. It was very specific. I had two friends. Sorry, one friend. And he was in a plane crash. The plane went off the runway, the plane caught fire, everybody got he doing? Oh, my gosh, they're British. And I said, well, that's why I don't fly.

When the kids were little, Tom and I didn't fly on the same plane together. We'd take different flights and all that. And I said, you know, that's why we don't fly together. And she said, darling, if you don't fly together then you shouldn't really drive together because the chances of being in a car crash are far greater. And she was right. The statistics are actually true. Oh, the statistics are right.

So that kind of calmed me. I was like, okay. The idea of once the doors are closed you hand the power over to someone else. And that always... What I did is I learned to fly. Your own plane. are closed you hand the power over to someone else and that always but i actually i what i did is i learned to fly your own plane yeah i i did that what did that do well you know kurt russell yes right so kurt you know cars like crazy yes all right aviator so i said to him he was on the

old late night show and i said i'm frightened of flying i know you love flying and i'm afraid of flying he said you're not frightened of flying you I know you love flying and I'm frightened of flying. He said, you're not frightened of flying. You're just a control freak. And I went, that's not true. And I went, it is true. I read your book. And I went, you read my book? And then I ended up talking about the book because I was so excited that Kurt read my book.

But he didn't forget. And so for my birthday, Megan called up kurt and said hey let's get him some flying lessons because i used to be terrified of flying and he went great and he found a flying instructor really gnarly old guy over at van nye's airport took me out and after about seven hours of flying instruction for me where i was terrified right kurt said you come up with me I was like oh god so he has this super powerful plane right there's a t I don't know if he still has it but he's a had a tbm 700 it was like a rocket ship oh wow and uh we go up this plane and we fly it just from Santa Monica over at Santa Maria airport it's not far is it yes and and as we're landing there's a bit of a crosswind and he said land the plane I said I I I'm not ready for that he went well I ain't doing it and so and it

eventually I you know I I did it and I I got it close and then he took over and he landed the plane oh terrifying I was I was terrified but you can't cry in front of a snake bliskin. You can't. But I went home and something cracked a little bit. I don't know what it was. When I went home, I was like, no, it's different. I understood the mechanics of it a little better. So now are you less afraid to fly in a commercial flight? Yeah, I would say that I am. Because you understand the mechanics? I understand how it works. I also say that I am. Because you understand the mechanics? I understand how it works. Yeah. And I also understand that the person that is flying the plane is far more qualified than I am to do the job. So that kind of works.

Don't put him on a late night show or a podcast. He can't do it. Who, Kurt? The pilot. Oh, the pilot? Some can, some can't. No, he can't do it. No.

They're a very specific breed, pilots, actually. Did you never get into that? Flying? Yeah. It's kind of a Hollywood thing. There's a community of people here that do it. And I was kind of surprised with the people. I was like, oh my god. And you run Edward Norton at the airport

or Travolta is famously a flyer or Tom Cruise. There's a whole... I'm like, oh my God, this is like the Oscars. This is exactly. It's crazy. Everybody's here. The Oscars in really fancy suits. I'm like, oh, everyone's wearing pressure suits.

It's cool. But it's kind of like, and I thought it'd be super expensive, and it is. Yes. But, you know. So do you still do it? Do you still take lessons? I have a little, little little tiny two-seater plane

that I can only fly at certain times of the year because of the weather. Wow. And you keep it in Scotland? I do, but I share it with a guy who's a really good pilot. Okay. So when you go, you take a co-pilot with you? Well, let's say I take the co-pilot, but really I'm just sitting going, what does that do?

Can I have a shot? Can I have a show can I have a show do you have a thing that you your antidote to to show business because it's such an odd kind of capricious world and that you know just by the nature of it i don't mind it i think that's the way it is it's the circus but i often feel i'm drawn very much to things which are enacted which take my head out of it do you do that do you yeah i mean you have your faith obviously yeah well first of all my family i'm super close right to them after this i'm going to go see my brother who lives right nearby. Nice. But I have to be outside in nature. I love swimming. I love hiking.

Yeah. I love walking. Anything that is outside, that is just heaven for me. And also, I really like driving by myself. I like that too. I just love it. I feel like it's a cocoon and you can think and nothing, you know, like, it's almost like a meditation in a way. I agree.

Like, what's that expression that they used to say?, idle hands are the devil's work or something like that? But it's the idea that you're using your hands to do something and it frees up your brain. So, my mom was a big crocheter and people who cook or garden or sew or any of that stuff or work on cars, they have that same thing. The early Christian desert mystics, they would make baskets. Baskets. They would weave baskets while they were in constant prayer. Right. And so that, I think that's a form of meditation, right?

Sure, yeah. And I love that. I listen to music. I listen to books on tape. But mostly, I just like to let the mind wander. Are you a gearhead? Do you have special cars? Do you go to Jay Leno's garage and say, let me try this one?

I don't. Actually, my car is, you're going to think this is crazy, 10 years old. You know how most people get a brand new car every couple of years? No, my car is 10 years old. I'm never getting rid of it. I love it. You know, a big thing that happened to me in hollywood was i was working in warner brothers and it was in the 1990s and i just got here i was doing the drew gary show

and clint eastwood was working in in the warner brothers lot and he drove in in a 10 year old ford explorer and i was, that is so fucking cool. That's so cool. It's so cool. He's like, I'm Clint Eastwood. I don't care. Yeah, exactly. He's like, you know, it's not going to make me any more Clint Eastwood.

Right. I just, I love to kind of like, yeah, it's a car. I have a car. One of my cars, it's a truck, is, I should say ours, is 21 years old. I think that's great, though. I love it. You hang on to them long enough and they become vintage. That's right.

I think, I feel like I'm trying that for myself as well. I feel like if I can survive long enough, it'll come back around again. Totally. I noticed kids at my stand-up shows now, and they're like under 30. I'm like, what the hell are you doing here? Yeah. And then I thought, you bastards, you're here ironically, aren't you? It's because of TikTok or something.

No way. What about that? Do you do TikTok? I was about to ask you. I kind of dip in and out of it, but I treat it the same way as I do with anything. I don't read anything that anybody else puts up. Right. I just do my thing and then I run away. I know I have

an account but I've never been onto it. I don't know how to do it. Do you do the Instagram or any of it? I do Instagram and Facebook and Twitter. Right. Formally known as Twitter. I think Twitter is it's kind of going away I think now.

I don't know. I wish it would all go away I kind of do too can it leave now? hasn't it had its moment, can't we just go back to like looking at each other talking to each other I was hoping it was going to be like CB radio

like it would come in and it would go and that would be it but I think I feel that it kind of, I remember actually, Tom was scheduled to do a spot in my old late night show. And for some reason he couldn't do it. And he wrote, very classy gentleman, as I'm sure you know, he wrote a note of apology.

And it was written in an old typewriter. And I went, oh my my god that's so cool because it wasn't just somebody had just done it no it's him with the mistakes and all there was some thought in it and it marred to me it was like it really was something

there's something really good about analog things a handwritten note, a hand-typed note. I listen to my music on vinyl now. Oh, yeah. I've gone back to that. Oh, my new album's coming out on vinyl soon. Because you're a country artist, sort of, right?

Kind of, yes. Yeah. I love that. I like to say that I'm Southern, Southern California. Southern California, all right. Exactly, why not? It's like that NASCAR guy that's from California. I can't remember his name, but yeah, he's sort of Southern, but Southern California.

But I love vinyl. I love it so much. It reminds me, first of all, it's tactile. Yeah. And it reminds me of how we used to listen to music as a whole. So there was a narrative story that the artist or the band was looking to to tell right and you would listen to it and there'd be that moment where side one was over side a and you'd flip it over and do side b yeah and it was just like i love the ritual of that that's so

wonderful i like the crackle of it i know and then the thing the thing is as well is that it you can listen to vinyl at low volume and hear stuff that you can't hear digitally i never noticed that until very recently like wait a minute and i played it to our youngest boy is 12 and i got this vinyl setup and i played it to him for the first time and it was like a big electronica thing it was a scottish band called mogwai and And it was like, it's real. Oh, my God. And I played it to him and he went, oh, my God, what is this?

Wow. And I said, this is analog music. Do you have great speakers? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was like, oh, my God. I love this. He said, I feel I've been robbed. I said, you have, son.

Yeah, exactly. Turn him on, get him his own turntable. There was a woman that lived up the street from us when we were growing up and she worked at capital records so this was during the 60s right when the beatles were assigned to capital wow so whenever there was um an album a beatles album released she would bring it to us and my sister well all three of us we would just put that thing on, call it a hi-fi. Why was it a hi-fi? I don't know.

High fidelity. High fidelity. Right. But it had a turn. My dad made it. It had a turntable on one side. It had the tuners on the other side. Yeah.

And the amps. And then the middle was the television set. And we would just sit in front of that. was the television set. And we would just sit in front of that. Wouldn't that be great if somebody came out with a hi-fi, but like a really proper, with all the good technology, but made it look like it was in a piece of cabinet.

I bet you could do it. I found a 1930s wooden radio in the house in Scotland in what we call the cellars. It's kind of a crypt. And I don't know why the radio was down there, but call the cellars. It's kind of a crypt. Right. And I don't know why the radio was down there, but all the valves and stuff were gone. But there is a company that will put new innards in it for you. Oh, that's so cool.

Yeah. Do you live in an old house in Scotland? It's pretty old, yeah. Is it haunted? Yes. Really? What kind of ghosts? What kind of things have you heard or seen

well there's always bumps and squeaks right and do you believe in all this we had one house that had things that were inexplicable

I love this I don't me too the most haunted house I've ever lived in was in the Hollywood Hills what yes

okay tell me what happened I don't know what happened but it was scary Megan was like what the hell is that and it was like it may have been a homeless guy I don't know what happened, but it was scary. Megan was like, what the hell is that? And it was like, ah! It may have been a homeless guy. I don't know.

But it was scary. It was a scary house. That's wild. Where was your haunted house? It was an old 1926 Mediterranean. That's the... Mine was a 1926 Mediterranean. What? Yeah. They were like,

they were friends. Maybe.. They were friends. Maybe. The ghosts were friends. Maybe. Where was it? Was it in the Hollywood Hills? No, in Santa Monica area. Oh, right. Okay.

So here's the thing, though, that there were just inexplicable things, and everybody heard them, and you just couldn't explain why the TV would go on by itself in the middle of the night. Yeah, I've seen that. Why it sounded like there was somebody dropping a stack of books onto the floor from the second floor landing. It sounded like somebody was just dropping a stack of books. We had one in the house. We were in the old house in Scotland, right?

And there was a portrait, an old portrait of the woman who had owned the house a couple of hundred years ago. It was up on the wall. Right. And Megan and I were standing in a room. We were talking about something. We were just being married, talking. I don't know what the hell you talk. You know what it's like.

You've been married forever. It's like you just talk about everything. You don't know what it is. You remember that thing? Yeah. So we're just talking. And there was a door that never opened. It just couldn't.

It was always so... I mean, you could open it, but it was always so I mean you could open it but it was very very difficult right jiggle the thing the the handle so we were looking at this portrait and I said oh she's still here somewhere and Megan was like well and she said it's a joke she said to the portrait it's my house now girl girl. And the door wiggled. And then the door opened. And I was like, no way did that happen. And Megan said, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry I didn't mean it. What was inside the door?

Nothing. We thought it was one of the kids coming through. There was nobody there. Nothing. The door just opened. I've got the tingles just telling you about it right now. That's so crazy Yeah, I know, it's crazy That's really wild We're completely out of time

I don't know if we've done anything Are we supposed to be talking about joy? I don't know if you noticed But I tried to get you to talk about everything That brought you joy But what's the joy? Oh, the things that bring me joy Yeah, your faith, your family

Oh, got it Okay But you know what if you want to define it in some way and put a button on it i'm very happy with that put a button on it i mean what does define joy for you well i mean i think it has to be just making people happy and trying to, I mean, for me anyways, I like to do that. I like to make people happy. I like to, okay, if it's stuff that's not related to family, because obviously that's like a given, I suppose. But I would-

Not always. Yeah, that's true. Maybe not. Not always. Maybe not. And the reason why I didn't like bring it up in a fashion and just ask you directly is because I think sometimes it's nice to talk to people and find out what makes them happy without saying what makes you happy.

Right, exactly. No, I get that. But I would have to say that I think music for me, because I came to it, I've always loved music and wished that I had started it younger, but it didn't happen that way. And when I finally did start making music 12 years ago, it was as if I could finally express myself in a creative way that felt so truthful. Because in acting, I've done wonderful things, right? Sure. I'm very grateful for them. Yeah.

But in some ways, I also exhausted the canon of warm, kind, nurturing wife, daughter, sister, mother, friend. It's also a collaborative form. You know, you're working with a whole bunch of different people coming with a whole bunch of different angles and agendas. Right. Whereas a musician, it's like you drive the thing a little more. And it was really, it just brings me so much joy to do that. Like when I know that I have a writing session

or I'm going to go in and record something, it just, I'm so excited. And that absolutely brings me joy. And, you know, look, you're right. My faith is a huge driver of that, I think, because I have faith, you know, and it gets tested. Everybody gets tested. faith, you know, and it gets tested. Everybody gets tested. You know, we have that happen, but I still feel like at the end of the day, I have that. There's a great line. Do you remember the movie, Chariots of Fire? Yes. All right. So in Chariots of Fire, it's one of my favorite lines.

The Greek people would say, Evangelis. Evangelis, that's right. He did the soundtrack to it. Yes, the Greek people would always say. If there's a Greek person somewhere in the vicinity of a conversation, a Greek will point that out. So in the Vangelis movie, Charities of Fire, it's about a Scottish runner who is a very religious man. And the story is that he won't run in the Olympics on a Sunday. Right. And it's a big problem because that's when the final is and that's the story of the movie sort of.

Yeah. And his sister, who's even more religious than him, doesn't want him to run at all because they've got to go and their missionary work in China is what needs them. And he says this line to her.

I don't know who wrote the script. It's terrible. But there's a great line in the, they're walking in the hill above Edinburgh and she's saying, she's trying to persuade him not to go to the olympics and he says i believe god made me for a purpose and that purpose is china but when i run i feel his pleasure oh that's so beautiful and i think that can be your music for you.

That's beautiful. Yeah, it feels like that. It really does. And it's exactly that. It's exactly that. It sounds like that. And now that we're talking about it, you're making me think about all sorts of other things because some of them tie together. Earlier, you asked me what gives me joy.

I love, I'm a hobbyist, but I do watercolor painting, okay? Perfect. And it gives me so much joy because here's why. I always wanted to try it and I never could do it. And I was like, why am I not doing it? I had organized, organizing all the vacations for the families when the kids were little and all of that. And they'd all be set up and very happy and doing all their things and having their activities. And I'd feel like, oh, what am I supposed to be doing now? And I thought, I need a hobby. I need something I can do like that. So I researched a painting class, and I went one day a week for five years from September till June, and I knew nothing when I started this class. Nothing. And it was probably the thing that led me to find songwriting because I thought if you do something consistently enough

you don't get worse at it you cannot get worse at it right you will improve and I I thought yeah with a matter of discipline and just consistency this happens and I met the most amazing people. And they were people out of this incredible walk of life. That you're like, this one guy used to run ABC Studios, Brandon Stoddard. Incredible man. He passed away now. Do you remember him? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Such a lovely human being.

He was an incredible artist. And, you know, you think, God, you know, he didn't have that. What you don't know about that exists within you, that unless you sort of explore it and say, okay, I'm going to try this, I'm going to do it like you did with flying a plane. I mean, you came at it because you were afraid of it. you were afraid of it but there might be something you could do out of the joy of it just because you're like well i don't know how to river dance but i'm going to learn it's like you know me but but that's i've seen it do you so now i can finally i feel like i've been released but it's funny because i think what it is is that when you're young, when a person is young, I think they judge themselves and they look at the results.

The biggest challenge I have when I start writing anything, not anymore, but it used to be, I would start saying, you know, once upon a time or whatever it was that I wrote. Right. And then by the third sentence, I was constructing my thank you speech. Were you funny as a kid? Yeah, I think I probably was. You knew that you could make people laugh. Yeah, well, I knew I'd better or they'd hit me.

It was kind of like, not so much my family, but in the society I grew up in, it paid to be funny or something. Or just keep your head down. Right. It was... Did you ever do anything different as just like something that you said, I really want to learn how to do this, not the flying thing, but a creative endeavor?

Yeah. What was it? And it was, for me, it was stand-up. Really? Yeah, because stand-up comedy was there was you know billy connelly yeah of course so billy's 20 years older than me so when i was 10 years old billy was 30 years old and he was just coming to prominence yes in scotland and i had never seen anyone from my background do that right it was unbelievable to me this was like so i mean americans did that but

not right not scottish men from down the road now billy's a very special human being but but he was jackie robinson for me he opened the door and and so i i that was what it was and i thought i'd like to be able to do that looks like looks like a really cool thing to do. And through one thing and another and various endeavors, I ended up having a crack at it and it kind of worked out here and there. And that's what led me into it. Wow. But it was like an instrument. Yeah.

You know, that if you learn to play the guitar, you play in a band, you play in a, maybe you write a movie score, maybe you work with other people, but what you really like to do is just play the guitar and just play. And that's what I love about doing it is just playing. To be honest, I felt the same way about Late Night too

is that eventually I thought you know what, the guy who got me into it said, you're a natural for this. And I said, you're crazy, I don't even pay any attention to this sort of stuff. And he said, it doesn't matter,'re a natural for this and i said you're crazy i don't even pay any attention to this sort of stuff and he said it doesn't matter you're natural for them wow and and he was right i was wow i i just love those stories i mean so we're only really limited by our own belief systems or i think what we've heard as kids or teenagers because I think it's not even the limitations we put on ourselves, but sometimes, you know, a teacher or a parent or someone you admire saying something like,

you can't dance, you're, you know, you've got too loved to be. Yeah, the wrong word at the wrong time, yeah. Or, oof, that, what was that you just sang? And you're, ooh, my ear. And if you're a kid, you can hear that and be completely crushed by it. So I think it's never too late. You just got to keep creating and keep doing it. There's only one point when it's too late. Yes, exactly. But by that time, it really is too late. But up until that point, keep going. Keep going. Yeah. You keep going. You keep going. I adore you. I adore you. I'm

so happy that you came to do this. Thank you for having me. Anytime. Want to know how to leverage culture to build a successful business? Then Butternomics is the podcast for you. I'm your host, Brandon Butler, founder and CEO of Butter ATL. And on Butternomics, we go deep with today's most influential entrepreneurs, innovators, and business leaders to peel back the layers on how they use culture as a driving force in their business. Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level. Listen to Butternomics on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. For 10 years,

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