Joy, a Podcast. Hosted by Craig Ferguson - Robert Smigel

Episode Date: August 13, 2024

Meet Robert Smigel, a writer, producer, actor and director known best for his Saturday Night Live “TV Funhouse” cartoon shorts and as the creator and voice of Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog, the foul-mouthed puppet who mercilessly mocks celebrities and others in the style of a Borscht Belt comedian. Triumph debuted on Late Night with Conan O’Brien, for which Robert served as the first Head Writer/Producer. Watch Robert’s latest live video from Triumph the Insult Comic Dog’s San Francisco performance of Triumph the Insult Comic Dog’s Let’s Make A Poop here. Robert is also starring in the film, Between The Temples, which will be out in theaters nationwide August 23rd. EnJOY! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling, as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said, like, in my head for, like, 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez.

And on my podcast, I like to talk to everyone from Hall of Fame athletes to iconic musicians about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. I had the best dad. And I had the best memories and the greatest experience. And that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Guess what, Will?

What's that, Mango? I've been trying to write a promo for our podcast, Part-Time Genius, but even though we've done over 250 episodes, we don't really talk about murders or cults. I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati of cheese, so I feel like that makes us pretty edgy. We also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food and how do dollar stores make money.

And then, of course, can you game a dog show? So what you're saying is everyone should be listening. Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. The Craig Ferguson Pants on Fire Tour is on sale now. It's a new show. It's new material, but I'm afraid it's still only me, Craig Ferguson, on my own, standing on a stage, telling comedy words. Come and see me buy tickets, bring your loved ones or don't come and see me. Don't buy tickets

and don't bring your loved ones. I'm not your dad. You come or don't come but you should at least know it's happening and it is. The tour kicks off late September and goes through the end of the year and beyond. Tickets are available at thecraigfergusonshow.com

slash tour. They're available at thecraigfergusonshow.com slash tour or at your local outlet in your region. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness. Every now and again you get to talk to a genuine icon, a genuine genius, an absolute game changer of a human being and artist. And today is one of those days. Robert Smigel is here.

When I was like the Mission Impossible, they take the masks off. Face off with Nicolas Cage and John Cronkite. I loved that movie, Face Off. The Nicolas Cage movie, that's second in my Nicolas Cage movies. Oh. Ghost Rider. I haven't seen that.

What the fuck, man? I know, I know. And I hear the one about the guy who's in everyone's dreams is amazing. It just came out like a year ago. I don't know. Have you seen Witchfinder, the one he did with Ron Perlman? No, I haven't seen that either. Vampire's Kiss, have you seen that one?

No, I haven't. Oh, he's so funny. What is he doing? It's from like the early 90s peak Nicolas Cage time yeah he's just screaming

the entire movie yeah but I'd see my feeling is he's never made a bad movie I haven't seen them all I haven't either but it's a theory it is a theory

it doesn't need to be proved but I feel like Ghost Rider Ghost Rider actually started me on the path to Jeff Peterson, which was my counterweight to Triumph.

Yes. I love Jeff Peterson. Kind of Triumph and Andy mixed together. Yeah, he's more Andy. He's just Andy. Trendy. He was trendy. No, I do want to talk about your show because I really loved,

and I'll tell you part of why it was because so we I was the original um whatever they call him producer on the Conan show you're right and I you know I'm very proud of everything we did a lot of crazy comedy yeah Letterman really changed it and then we modified it and you continued to but I mean mean, but I'm very proud of it. Uh, it's the best job I ever had. Love Conan. He's amazing. He's legend.

But he had never been on television before. And so it was never quite as crazy as I envisioned it when we started. I wanted it to feel completely unpredictable all the way through the hour. And like the, if you ever watch the first Conan show, you'll see hints of that, where Conan would say stuff like, John Goodman's coming up, but first we'll be right back

after this special effects technician. And then we would cut to this bearded, redheaded bearded guy in glasses and just dancing like this to, you know, I can't remember what the song was, but just dancing for like 15 seconds. And then Conan would just say, we're back. And we would do that kind of stuff. But Conan had never been on television. And Conan was like a young ambitious writer performer and this was his dream and he didn't he gave a lot of shits many many shits right and when you're that young

combining that with inexperience made it very rocky for him and we pared down the show that kind of craziness like we even had people interrupt interviews sometimes. Like, we had a character called Doug the Neighbor who would, like, there'd be a hedge in the back of the studio. And he'd just like, hey, Conesy, and who you talking to? And he's like, Gore Vidal. Who the who? Like, he was just like a bad sitcom neighbor. And it was funny conceptually, but Conan did not have the confidence to own it.

And also giving a shit is going to get in your way. I know. And he, but he was a young guy. He's like 30 years old. This is his big shot. You, when I watched you,

I felt like I was watching someone unlike any other host in that it felt like, and then I read about you and I was like, ah, this makes sense. He's just gone through so much. And then this thing falls in his lap and he's like, whatever. That's how it felt to me. That's exactly what it was. But the thing was, I kind of, I feel a little weird about it,

even to this day, because when I ended up in late night, and to me, getting into late night, and I've said this before, it was kind of like getting a job as a realtor. Like no one really wants a job as a realtor. You don't start out in life thinking, I'm going to be a realtor. No,

but you know, shit goes wrong. Unless your father's a realtor. Yeah. Or maybe your father's a realtor, but my father wasn't a realtor. And his father before that. Yeah.

But none of that was in my life. My father wasn't even American. So the idea of doing a show like this, I was like, oh, sure, fine, whatever. And that really was true. And my early shows, I tried to hold it together and be a late. I would walk out. You see the first couple of weeks, I'm fiddling with my tie and saying, you guys watch the playoffs, and I'm reading it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I couldn't do it. Right, and so you're just like, fuck it. Well, it was a little bit by little bit. Yeah. I mean, because you know what it's like. Of course. You do these shows every night, every night, every night.

Every time I watch a new late night show, I see ambitious things, and I'm like, okay, they're going to lose that in about six weeks. Right. The drop, like Jimmy Kimmel had a co-host every week. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like Rosie O'Donnell used to read letters from, I don't know. Everybody had gimmicks.

We had, Conan didn't do a monologue at the beginning. He didn't do a topical monologue. Monologues are hard. I know. Well, they're always the worst part of the show. Yeah, yeah, no. And I was like, you're not doing a topical monologue. You're too funny.

You're just going to talk about shit. And then by the second week, I realized he's got nothing to talk about anymore because his whole life, he's pouring everything into this show. So it'd be like, hey, folks, oh, man, last night, I rolled in at 11.30 at night, and I cried myself to sleep in bed. But anyway, yeah. at 11.30 at night and I cried myself to sleep in bed. But it's a funny thing because of the relentless nature of it. I think once you get past the idea

of trying to be good at it, because I wanted to be good at it and then I was like, I just want to stay on the air now. I just want to stay on the air. And then after about a couple of months, I was like, I don't even care if I stay on the air now. I just want to stay on the air. And then after about a couple of months, I was like, I don't even care if I stay on the air. Fuck these people.

Nobody knows what they're talking about. Everybody's a fucking liar. The network are crazy. The publicists are manipulative and evil. The stars are weird and shut down. And then I thought, well, I don't... About six months into doing Late Night, I don't think I've even told anybody this,

but six months in, I had my pass... I wasn't an American citizen at the time. Right. I used to have my passport in my pocket. Like, ready to go? Like, even on stage. I had my passport in my pocket. I was like, shit goes fucking tits up.

I am out of here. I'm going to the airport. Get the fuck out. I'll go anywhere. I'll go anywhere on earth. Oh my God. But you were enjoying the show itself. I was loving the show.

But I knew, I just. But you had this chip on your shoulder from all these non-believing people. Right. And I also, I believed that anything that I loved this much, I wasn't going to get to keep. Which is, you know. Sure. And because it belonged to someone else. Eventually I found the antidote to it was this, was going out and performing stand-up again, which I had done when I was a younger performer, but going out and going back to doing stand-up

in theaters or in comedy clubs, because then I felt a sense of autonomy because I knew that CBS or show business would cut my throat and dump me in the East River the right whenever they felt like right but if I had something else that belonged to only to me like then I'd be all right so that gave that was like you you kind of built on your audience from the show to yes you standup in America, and then you were like, well, fuck them if I get canceled. I still have my guys. I'm going to have, I've built a career now in the States.

And I still do stand-up. I know you do. He'll be in Albany. Yeah, he probably will actually be in Albany. I heard you. But I look, I used to look at Conan in particular, because I loved Conan. I loved doing Conan shows.

And to the nearest thing to what I wanted to do was early Dave or Conan. That's what I wanted to do. Whatever vibe that was, I wanted. And what you were doing with Triumph or with TV Funhouse, the vibe of all of that mad shit that that ramshackle fucking crazy i wanted a piece of that yeah but when i looked at all you guys you're fucking new each other yes you know you and i i was i felt so jealous and outside because even in late night

you know guys had gone to you know emerson or cornell or you know or or or nyu or harvard or harvard even yeah i was i considered myself a diversity hire by going from cornell but i was so jealous of that and no i didn't i didn't wish any harm or but i just i wished to be part of it but i didn't totally get it how to be part of it, but I didn't know how to be part of it. And I felt. No, and I'm sure you felt like, I mean, to be perfectly honest, I don't think a lot of those people got you. No, I don't think they did. And I would watch the show and I would be like, everybody's just a fucking snob about this guy. Yeah.

Because he's from Scotland and he doesn't have the exact same dry approach. Yeah, I didn't have it. No, I know. But you had your own thing and you were naturally funny. Your interviews were amazing. But what hit me the most was you had a fucking skeleton robot for a sidekick. You had a horse, a shitty horse costume that you would come out and you wouldn't make any big deal out of it. As if you treated it like it was perfectly normal, normal which was that was my dream to be that insane we never did

that on the show because it was just too it was just not the right time in conan's career now conan it's so funny like he's very loose now oh he's so well the podcast is like an amazing vehicle for yeah yeah and and uh that was always like the white whale. Because we knew he's been that way since he was 25. Right, right. We've always wanted to get that guy, even though he was really funny and great on his show, always knew there was that guy.

And then when he did the Hot Ones thing with, you know, that podcast and it was out of his mind, I just talked to him about it the other day because now I'm just talking about Conan. Sorry, but- That's all right. No, so he wants, so when we were just starting the show, he was going to be on Letterman

and he had this fantasy in his head. He said, what if I'm on Letterman and it's my first time on and I'm just telling an anecdote and then my face freezes in a weird position. So he's just like, so anyway, I'm making a right and just then the light, and then I just don't change.

I just commit to that face and Letterman doesn't know what to do. And I just do this. Like I'm stuck and I never give in. It would have been the funniest thing I've ever seen. Yeah, it would take stones to do it though. He was like, there's no way I can do this. I can get away with it. But then when he did the hot ones, that was basically the

equivalent of that level of craziness. And it was so funny to know that people see it and they're like, wow, Conan's really changed. He's so out there now. And Conan and I know that he's just always been that guy.

He's always been that guy, but he's just, nobody could handle it back then. But you. I think I was, I was lucky because of David Letterman though, because what happened was during the, the late night wars of Leno and Letterman after Johnny West, and I've talked about this a million times over this podcast, but, but basically CBS and the desire to get Letterman gave him two hours, gave him the time slot. He didn't just, he owned the time slot. I know, I know.

Just like Carson did with Letterman. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. So because of that, CBS couldn't really do anything to me because Dave owned the time slot. Dave had sanctioned me being there. Yeah. And Dave was in New York and I was in LA.

So Dave didn't give a shit. Dave and Rob Burnett were making their show. They didn't give a shit about me. They're busy. They're doing their own. Of course. They're making the big show in the theater. And I'm making this shitty little fucking show in a wardrobe in Los Angeles.

And they don't care. I mean, they're nice enough, but they don't give a shit. Right. And CBS can't touch me. So the anomaly of what happened, that's why I don't think I was under the same kind of pressure that you guys would have been under at the start of Conan.

Nobody was coming at me. And also, Conan replaced David Letterman. Right, yeah. And that was like the big story, and then David Letterman moves to CBS. It was such a huge thing, and then who's going to replace Letterman? Whereas you replaced Craig Kilbourn. He was such a huge thing. And then who's going to replace Letterman? Whereas you replaced Craig Kilbourn.

He was nice enough. Yeah, pleasant man. But didn't have the impact of a Letterman show. Also, I think what I was lucky in as well is I didn't have the specter of Johnny Carson. Exactly. I hadn't grown up with Johnny. I didn't know the language.

I didn't speak it. And by now, yeah, there was less pressure on this time slot I hadn't grown up with Johnny. I didn't know the language. I didn't speak it. No, and by now, yeah, there was less pressure on this time slot with Snyder and then Kilborn. And it's like, so it hadn't been like, oh, we've got to match Snyder's ratings or whatever. I'm sorry. I love Tom Snyder, too. He was lovely.

Yeah, but so. But he was doing a different thing. But yeah, so when you were part of like, I remember this so well. They had like different hosts every week for months. Yeah, yeah. I had to, it was basically American Idol. And so the very first time you did it, when you were really auditioning. Yeah.

What was your attitude? Were you scared or were you not give a shit? This is like a gift. Well, what happened is is I did it two nights because the reason they gave me it is because I'd been on Conan. I'd been on Conan as a guest. From the Drew Carey show.

Yeah, or a movie or something. And Peter LaSalle had seen, Peter LaSalle who was like the producer. The host whisperer. The host whisperer, right. He had seen me on Conan and he said, we should try that guy. Oh, nice.

And they were like the eighth banana from the Drew Carey show, we'll try this guy and they were like the 8th banana for the Drew Carey show we'll try this guy and so he they gave me they just put me in the mix with everybody else so the first two times

I didn't give a shit because I was I was making an independent movie in Canada in Winnipeg nothing against Winnipeg or indeed Canada but

you know I was just I was just there doing my thing and they said Craig Kilbourne's giving up do you want to come in and i was like i'll fill in for a couple of nights right now and you didn't see it

it's like this is my show this is what i've been dreaming of no i was like it's come to this yeah that's what i thought and then what happened is i i did it yeah and i loved it i they got me right away the first one was free, you know? So I did two nights and I spoke to LaSalle and I'm like, I fucking love this, Peter. I got to have this. And he said, well, it's not up to me. There's also David Letterman and Les Moonves.

And I was like, well, I want to do this. What do I need to do? And he said, let me work on it. And so he gave me a week, DL Hughley a week, Michael Ian Black a week. And I always forget there was one other guy who did it as well, but we gave us all a week to host it for a week. And then they made their decision after that. Yeah. But you, did you feel, you probably tightened up a little bit that week compared

to the first two? Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't as good that week, but I managed to scrape by. Because I remember Conan, his very first audition was like, yeah. It wasn't as good that week, but I managed to scrape by. Because I remember Conan, his very first audition, was like, okay, what the fuck? He was in Burbank. There was no audience

or there was like a tiny audience of just inside network people. Right. And he interviewed Mimi Rogers and Jason Alexander. It was like very informal and he killed it. Yeah.

He killed it. And then like, then we started doing test shows. And I was like, okay, you seem a little nervous compared to the, what do you think it is? And he was like, I have nothing to lose then. Well, don't you find that the callback, like, if you're auditioning actors for a movie or something like that, the first time they come in, they kill it. Yeah. And then you say, oh, we got to bring you back to let the network see you.

And then they get, they want it and they tense up. It's like that scene in Groundhog Day when Bill Murray tries to recreate the date with Andy McDowell. Right. Right. It's such a heartbreaking scene. Yeah. I love that movie.

Oh, it's amazing. That's an amazing movie. I have one of the first movies I saw when I came out of rehab. Oh, really? Yeah. It was right about that time.

And I went to see that movie. I went, this feels like I went through this. That's a good movie to see coming out of rehab. Well, the first one I saw was Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves with Kevin Costner. And I cried all the way through it. And I'm like, I don't think it's a normal human reaction to cry to that. So I knew that I was probably in a vulnerable state. Brandon Hunt is amazing because he's like working on himself. The whole movie ends up being about that. Yeah I knew that I was probably in a vulnerable state. But I want to talk. He's amazing because he's like working on himself.

Right. The whole movie ends up being about that. Yeah. But that's what it is. How do you be better? Be better. Be better. Or until you learn something, you're going to do the same fucking thing every time.

You're going to fuck up every time unless you learn. Yeah. I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians, actors in the world. We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love and everything in between. This life right here, just finding myself, just this relaxation, this not feeling stressed, this not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of. I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you got to constantly work on who

you are to make sure that the stars align correctly. Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you've come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone. You're going to you're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Back in

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So, let me ask you a little bit about the lead up to you being in comedy. Because I think of you as being, let me spool back a little bit on this. Here's what it is. About, I don't know, four or five years into late night, I interviewed Stephen King. And Stephen King is is i'm a fan of stephen king and he's written some of the

most horrific pieces of literature i've ever encountered no doubt dark fucking shit and he he came on the show i was excited to talk him. And he's one of the most upbeat, pleasant, nice, well-adjusted people I've ever talked to. And I thought, what the hell? And it began a little thing in my head because a lot of the people who I thought were going to be nice, particularly people who wrote, performed, or were part of romantic comedies, were fucking assholes. And I was like, what the hell is this? And what it began to foster in my mind,

and I'm kind of a little further down the line with it now, is that I think people who do comedy are the impulse to get into it. It doesn't necessarily stay that way, but the impulse to get into comedy and to make people laugh, particularly with stand-ups, but really with anyone, is a reaction to trauma or discomfort. Discomfort, sure. Yeah.

At least discomfort on some level. What do you think your discomfort? It's weird. Because if you write stuff like Triumph or TV Funhouse or the ambiguously gay duo, this is some dark shit getting worked through. Where do you think that? I mean, I think it might have been, I mean, it's weird because I laugh about my childhood. It was a pretty soft, happy childhood. I had Jewish parents that treated me like a god.

I could draw Charlie Brown and Fred Flintstone when I was five and they just shoved it in every friend's face. He's a genius! They were calling me a genius when I was five and they just like shoved it in every friend's face. He's a genius. You know, it's like they were calling me a genius when I was five years old. And so you sort of feel like, I didn't, I didn't lack for approval.

And like, I was joking to people that like some of my most traumatic moments when I was a kid or just moments where I was trying not to laugh at a, in the middle of a wedding or a bar mitzvah or something. That's pretty funny. That's like the kind of thing. But I think I had just, I think I was just born with like a slight sense of, of darkness. Like I actually, I think some people just come out that way. You know, I'm always been attracted to, like my dad gave me a Peanuts book when I was six years old, and I just became obsessed with Peanuts because it was the first thing I'd ever read for kids that didn't act like everything turns out okay. Everything before that... I mean,

I love Bugs Bunny cartoons, but there's always a winner and a loser. And Keynuts, everything was just like, everyone lived in this middle ground of, yeah, things are okay. I understand that. Yeah, and I definitely, but even then, I didn't really identify with Charlie Brown and all his anxieties, but I liked hearing about them. So something there definitely connected with me. What about around other kids? If your parents were nice and stuff like that, what was like the... I was popular because I was funny.

So I didn't really have... I mean, I definitely had anxiety when I got older with girls and stuff. Right. I definitely had that. And I older with like girls and stuff. I was definitely have that. And I, and I think I was essentially a shy person who, who got it out in,

you know, different ways. Like I would draw cartoons or I would imitate people. Well, laughter from other people is a massive surge of approval, isn't it? Absolutely. It feels like it anyway.

It's a surge of approval. And it's also, you know, you fool people into liking you. Yeah? Because I wasn't great at like talking to people. I've always been kind of a shy person on that level, a little bit inhibited. And I don't know where that comes from, but I've always had a little of that growing up.

So yeah, this was my outlet as a kid. It's sort of how I skated by, by being funny. I drew pictures of my friends. I ended up drawing cartoons of them, imitating them, imitating teachers, writing songs about my friends. But that's kind of,

I think that's kind of normal for you. But I think that's kind of normal for you. But I think that the idea of... I don't think the genius definition of you is inaccurate, by the way. And I don't throw that fucking word around. Because people do. It's like, oh, he's the genius. He's the most genius soccer player. He's the most genius swimmer.

You go, what? Really? I mean, I can swim. He plays with go what really I mean I can swim you know he plays with the ball you know I mean but it's got to be another word someone who's really good good at one thing yeah you know or I think you're really good but genius but genius Yeah, not quite a genius. Not a genius. Genius.

Yeah, yeah. But is that Yiddish? It sounds like it's not Yiddish. It's Yiddish. Yiddish-ish. Yiddish-ish. But genius, I think, is quite an interesting description of you because I think it's pretty accurate, especially if you're doing it right away.

Do you know what I mean? If I wasn't a genius, I could just draw. Yeah, but what you're doing now, like. Do you know what I mean? I wasn't a genius. I could just draw. I was... Yeah, but... These are my parents. Like the ramshackle shit that... And I'm using the word ramshackle more than once because I really feel it because I really connected with it.

Like years before I was on Late Night, years before any of that stuff, I would see... I think it was like late 90s, Triumph started on Conan. Because I used to watch Conan every night. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Triumph started on Conan. I'm like, whatever the fuck Conan every night. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Triumph started on Conan.

I'm like, whatever the fuck that is, that's it. That's what it is. And Conan all the way through, like when he would have, who was it? He used to have Ted, what's his name? The guy that started CNN. Ted Turner? Oh, yeah. That was Will Forte would come on as Ted Turner.

And then he would bump the big buffalo into the, that's yeah, yeah, yeah. That's years down the line. That's when he was on TVS. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even then, it's still all like, what the hell is going on? No, I know. But all of that stuff, that and there was another thing that I liked. And I know this wasn't your thing, but it felt like the vibe of the same thing was...

Do you remember Space Ghost Coast to Coast? Oh, sure. I loved that. Oh, yeah. I did an episode of the same thing was, do you remember Space Ghost Coast to Coast? Oh, sure. I loved that. Oh, yeah. I did an episode of that, and it was never aired. Triumph did one, too. Yeah, that's right. I think I saw it.

Yeah. I loved Space Ghost, but even more, I loved Sea Lab. Do you remember Sea Lab on Adult Swim? It's an old Hanna-Barbera show. Right. And they just used all this shitty animation that existed and they just redubbed it that's right and moved and but they didn't just redub it they also manipulated the animation made new stories do you still animate stuff absolutely brilliant stuff i'm actually working

on a reboot of a funhouse kind of show that's going to be more less topical but recurring characters that i'm developing for Peacock. Yeah. I am doing something with my friend Dino, who, uh, a brilliant writer that, uh,

started with at Conan. I always get anybody who ever uses genius on me. I always feel like you don't know the people I work with. Like that's how I, as a comedy writer, I feel like I've gotten a lot of attention because my name is on stuff. Okay. Saturday night live cartoons.

And then people know me as triumph or whatever. I'm very proud of my work, but I also know so many guys that I've worked with. Sketch writing is a weird and talk show writing. Yeah. It's not like being a playwright or a screenwriter. You don't get your name, your name's on a list.

And you might have written the most brilliant thing that night, and it's just da-ba-da-ba-doo-ba-doo. And so I feel like I always feel uncomfortable because I just know so many people that I consider brilliant, and they're just not famous because their names aren't. I think brilliance is, is essential. Like I, one of the mistakes I,

I think I made early on and I see people making this mistake is that they behave either badly or arrogantly young performers because they think they're so talented and they're right. They are so talented, but that's like when you get in a show business, talent is kind of like your driver's license. You're going to need that. You're going to need to be super fucking talented

now what else you got because super talented is not fucking rare in show business there's plenty of it true I mean I run into people

all the time you see fucking kids doing shit on TikTok and I'm like oh my god that's great nothing bums me out more than having to

audition people for a movie or something. Or when I audition people for the Dana Carvey show. Because you're just overwhelmed by how many people are good enough to do it. And then you have to pick like six. I remember literally being in tears after the callbacks. And my wife's like, what's wrong with you? And I'm like, because I can't.

It's just some of this is like their big big shot and i'm not gonna be able to and that's and then that's right fortunately the show got canceled in eight episodes so i was deluded i don't understand why that was canceled the dana carvey show that you you you you cast the wrong people except except for steve carell and steven colbert exactly that's what i was gonna say that show Except for Steve Carell and Stephen Colbert. Exactly. That's what I was going to say. That show shouldn't have got canceled.

It was in the wrong time slot. Dana and I were determined to bring late night comedy to primetime. I remember it was a different era. And I remember even when we were doing SNL in the later part of my run there, I remember thinking this show should be on at 10 on Thursday night. It shouldn't be at 1130 because primetime was a bigger deal back then. It was. And I felt like our audiences aged with the show. Like, you know, in 1975, it was new and there was a young audience for it, but now everybody's grown up. It should be a primetime show. And Lorne, I brought it up to Lorne, and he was, no fucking way.

And he was smart. He knew he had a good thing going. And he didn't want to screw it. Well, now it's like, more than ever. It's a weird little kind of corner of show business, really, because it seems like it's college for young performers. It is like college for young performers, in high school, whatever you want to call it.

It's definitely, although more and more people stay and stay and stay because jobs are just hard to come by. It's kind of on fire right now anyway, isn't it? It's kind of going through a change. It's like, you know, there was the streaming boom and now everything,

now all you hear is like... Well, I think what happened with the streaming boom is that all the assholes who worked at the networks all got jobs in streaming and they start fucking that up now because it's the same idiots. Well, you know, you're right.

I don't want to name names or anything. But yes, I do notice... You can if you want. You can name whoever you want. Well, I know, but I don't. Okay. No, that's fair. I want to work.

Yeah, I get it. No, but what I did notice that some of these streaming places started off very adventurous with their own people. And then it's like, we're bringing in this guy who used to work at Sony and this person and this and that. And like, you know, I assume it's unavoidable at a certain point because the business is so insular anyway. But I remember like the first when they were first doing, but I remember like the first, when they were first doing it, I was like, no, no, no,

you're doing it the right way. Yeah. You're following your gut. Don't follow rules. Well, the thing is about it though, I kind of understand it from their perspective because there was a friend of mine, you know John Feldheimer?

He started and run... John Feldheimer? Yeah, he's the creator of Lionsgate. Sounds like a headline of the National Enquirer. No. John Feltheimer. John Feltheimer? Sorry.

I'll leave. Look, see, remember when I said genius? I'm going to dial it back a little bit. You know, somebody said to me the other day, this is kind of an aside, they were talking about how great David Kelly was, like his work. Oh, I love it.

Ally McBeal. Genius, right? Love that shit. Genius, except this person was saying to me, David Kelly, he's never made anything bad. I went, sure he has. He went, no, no, I've never seen anything that hasn't worked. I go, that's because you don't get to fucking see it.

It's like he makes a pilot junked. Some of my favorite things I've ever written, nobody has seen. The best thing I've ever done on TV has never been seen. Really? Yeah, I did a pilot for, after I finished The Late Night, I did a pilot with, David Frankel directed

it, called The King of 7B. It was for ABC, and it was about a guy, I played played this guy who was an agoraphobic and lived in New York City. He would never go out. So everything just happened in his apartment. People would come to the apartment. It was a great script and I loved it. Is it even online? Don't think so. I don't know where it is. You don't even have a copy?

No. Oh, man. That's why I probably think it's so great. No, I bet it's great. It's pretty good. Honestly, I really feel that way. Some of my favorite things I've ever written are things that were just rejected. One of them, Conan was nice enough to let us.

So we wrote a screenplay for Hans and Franz, the SNL characters, the bodybuilders. Yeah. Dana Carvey and I and Kevin Nealon and Conan also worked on it. And we wrote it in 1991 and it was an insane, absolutely bonkers script. We all thought it was like the funniest thing

we'd ever written and the studio was just like shit. And Arnold, originally, he was the engine that drove us to do it. Because he had been on SNL a couple of times. Arnold Schwarzenegger. Yeah, this is really funny.

We used to do a movie about it. You guys want to make it in Hollywood. And I'll be your cousin. And so we wrote this thing. And it was absolutely insane. And then Arnold ultimately did the last action hero. And that didn't work, so he didn't want to ever wink at the audience and be himself.

And that's it. It was just done. And then a year ago, Conan was like, let's read it. Let's just read it on the show. And so Dana, Kevin,

and I, and Conan, Conan narrated. I played Arnold. And we got such an amazing response, and it was so gratifying because it's like these things I'm sure that this this is like just this nagging thing in your brain like oh that fucking thing you know and so it was such a great feeling to see the response online like people

loved it have you ever made a thing that you thought was great and everybody else thought it sucked? Oh yeah. I mean, at SNL that would happen. Like, you know, I'd write a Tuesday night. Yeah. But I feel that's couched in politics. I'm thought, uh, you know, I would like, then it would bomb. Some things are couched in politics, but sometimes they would bomb. And I was like, okay, maybe I, maybe I was wrong. Yeah. Maybe I, I, but it's very hard to come to grips with something that you once thought was hysterical and just something's in your brain forever. That's just like, no, there's something I did something. There's just a tiny little left turn and it would have worked something. Yeah. I really hard to let go for me. It is. It is.

I've made a couple of things I thought, that's great. This is going to be a massive hit. Yeah. It wasn't. It wasn't a massive hit. Well, a lot of times you don't get to, oh yeah, I had a show, just watched an episode like, or not even, I just watched five minutes and I got so angry because I was like, what happened?

Why? Why didn't this work? I don't get it. I get it, but I don't like it. Well, that's the thing I was going to tell you about Felheimer. Oh, Felheimer, yes. Sorry. So, John Felheimer, who's a nice guy and you'd like him, he was part of the team that sold

MGM to Sony. Okay. Right? And he said, this is what happened. They go in for the big meeting. There's all the japanese executives and all the american team that are selling it over and and they say to him they're going through a translator and they're talking to this japanese guy and he says will

you please tell i can't remember the guy's name he said please tell him the movie business is basically we make about 50 movies a year this was back then we make about 50 movies a year you know 20 of them will do okay you know 10 of them will suck and the rest will be great right or right or a different set of numbers and again it goes through the translator and the guy says a bunch of japanese the translator comes back and says yeah uh what he says is only make the good ones. We don't know. That's it. We don't know what's going to work. Oh, my God.

You don't know, but I do feel like when people follow their gut. You've got a better chance. I think so. I mean, I always look to Seinfeld, that show, as just a perfect example of people following their gut. Because it's only when you do something that hasn't been done that you get the big hit. But the problem is, I think what you're doing is you're working against the people who are afraid of that. If you're doing something that hasn't been done, that's the last thing they want to do.

No, I know. Well, the Dana Carvey show was an example of that. Exactly, right? They said to us, I remember this so clearly. It's so funny because you were on Drew Carey.

So this is 1995. Right. ABC is a very corny network at this point. I mean, not that these shows are bad, but like, you know,

Grace Under Fire, Roseanne, it was very very family-oriented sitcoms. And suddenly we're bringing in the Dana Carvey show and we're like, I don't know, ABC is the least hip network. Even CBS has more. NBC was the hip network. They had Seinfeld and Must See TV and all those urban sitcoms. And so they're like, no, no, no. This is exactly what we want to be doing. And so

now when I tell people, I always tell people, if someone says that to you, run for the hills. Because they are not going to be ready for what you want. Wait. Let them figure it out in a year. Because then the show gets canceled. And then the next year, there's Ellen and the Drew Carey show

on Wednesday nights. And I'm like, where were these shows? Because that would have been perfect. The Drew Carey show, we ended up doing all that variety stuff and musical numbers and breaking the fourth wall. Yeah, definitely.

Dana Carvey show. Yes. I was like, where was this when we were on? They weren't ready. The personnel changes, the executives change. And they were right. They did want to change their network, and they did. They had more sophisticated, quote unquote, I don't want to disparage Roseanne because it's a great show, obviously.

But, you know, more shows that would be compatible with the Dana Carvey show. And, you know, it was just like literally a year late. How do you handle failure? Are you good at it? I desperately try to move on into something else so that I don't dwell on it. So the Dana Carvey show, I was, thank God, I had the ambiguously gay duo was a cartoon within the Dana Carvey show because I wanted the Dana Carvey show to look as different from snl as possible and one of the things was cartoons the only one we did was the ambiguously gay duo but i loved it it's one of my favorite ideas ever and then over that summer i'm just in survival mode and i'm thinking okay what other cartoons and then i have this idea for something called fun with real audio which i did on SNL a lot.

We took the audio of celebrity interviews and things like that or political debates and made crazy animation to those voices. And then I got really excited and I just called Lorne Michaels, who wanted me back at SNL anyway. I was like, well, I figured out a way where I'd be excited to go back.

And it was the easiest phone call. He was like, good, let's do it. Wow. And that saved me that time. And then after the Jack and Triumph show, I, it was like 2016 now. And, and we had, that show didn't work, but the election was coming up and, and people were a couple of people that was in a wall street journal article and lawrence o'donnell the nbc commentator they both called trump uh trump the insult comic dog

because of his behavior and it made me think oh i should cover the election i should cover it's right triumph yeah so i covered so the whole gimmick was like the bar has been lowered and now Triumph is ready to be a political correspondent because the dialogue has gotten so base and embarrassing thanks to Trump. So Hulu was all in and I got to do like six right after the Triumph show failed, the Adult Swim show. I got to do these political specials on Hulu. I got to do six of them, covered the whole election, got nominated for an Emmy, and it was just like, so that's the thing. I just run to the next idea.

So you deal with failure by succeeding down the line. Desperately. Yeah. Trying to move on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand it because I think that the idea of it, I come from a culture. I think this is another reason I think why I became an American. Yeah.

Is it boils down to this failure in America is like, okay, next failure where I grew up in the environment that I grew up in. It was like, you should never have tried. Well, you failed. Are any of us surprised? We, fat Craig, failed. Oh, my God. But in America, you swing, you miss, you go, okay, go again.

You swing, you miss, you go again. It doesn't matter. Of course you fail. Everybody fails. Next. And if you have adoring Jewishish parents it's even more so well they're idiots those people are idiots they don't understand you see the genius of your drawings my dad after a good snl after i had a good sketch on snl he would always say to me always crack me up

did lauren michaels does he appreciate how good that was did he tell you does he does he know this is the opposite of what I know because because I I called the first time I get nominated for an Emmy I called my mother in Scotland she was still alive and I called my mother in Scotland I was in California I said mom I've been nominated for an Emmy yeah and she went oh that's nice Robert Carlyle the Scottish actor has also been nominated for an Emmy I was. And she went, oh, that's nice. Robert Carlyle, the Scottish actor has also been nominated for an Emmy. I was like, you knew? So you knew you looked at the Emmy nominations, you knew I'd be nominated for an Emmy, but you brought up Robert Carlyle, who is a nice guy, but didn't need to be part of that conversation. Oh my God. And it, it kind of like, it's a,

it's a different way of coming at it. It's funny because like the other side of it, to have parents that are so into it and just like, he's nominated everybody. And it's like, I almost, it almost makes me crazier in some way. Did it make you angry when you were a kid? No, not angry. But like, no, but when I was doing SNL and things,

and my dad would say things like that, it wouldn't make me angry, but it would subliminally, sometimes it would make me care too much. I try to keep an even keel about this and not be that needy for, but when my parents want it as much or more than I do. You're going to let them down if it's not a massive pain.

Yeah, then it's like a whole other level. Yeah, I can see that. So what I think then is that here's what I'm going to get. I feel that your trauma was more manipulative than mine. Mine was just like, stay up. Oh, Tubby's a fat wee boy and he's going to fail. Yours is a, you will let us down if you fail. Even if they did

it later i don't think that i don't think i picked up on that when i was a little kid yeah i'm not trying to make your parents a villain by the way i know i know maybe you're right though maybe there was a little part of me that like just like oh my god i love how happy they are i just want to make them happy all the time i I mean, I did when I, but this was out of appreciation of their support. Like when I won my first Emmy, cause I hate awards. I really do. I really like getting them. I hate when other people win them, but when I went to get them, they're great when you, when you get them. Yeah. But I just, but here's what I did. Cause I actually didn't want to feel that way when I won my first Emmy. Right. Because I was like, didn't want to feel that way when I won my first Emmy.

Right. Because I was like, no, the reward is the job and the opportunity and that I get to do this work. This is random. Jason Alexander's never won one. The most ridiculous thing. He still has. He's never won for Costanza. That's crazy.

The funniest character in the history of television. That's crazy. That's all you need to know. Yeah. To keep you sane about awards. Yeah, that is. It's like, it's random. You's all you need to know to keep you sane about awards. Yeah, that is crazy. It's like it's random. You can't take it seriously.

But I remember this first time we won the Emmy for SNL. I saw recently a photograph of all the writers, and I'm the only one not smiling. I'm trying to be above it. And then I remember, and then I took it on the plane, got off the plane, went straight to my parents' apartment, gave it to them. Didn't want it.

Just wanted them to have it. That's interesting. I didn't want to have it. I didn't want to care about it. And I knew how much they cared about it. But I understand the not wanting to care about it. Because if you care about something, they can hurt you. Like anything.

Absolutely. It's a trap. This is like one more thing I had so much anxiety and I'd already put so much anxiety on myself just wanting to be good wanting to get my sketches on

yeah all of that I didn't need to win an Emmy at that point it's fun but the thing is kind of like

how you change when your kids are born suddenly suddenly there's a human being in the world and you really care about them oh yeah you know i mean of course you care about other people you're in relationships with yeah

yeah but when you're there's nothing like it oh my god and then the level of fear that that jacked up in me i can't even describe yes you know and still to this day without a doubt all parents you know have that and then i have this extra. I had that when my first son was born. Then when he was diagnosed with autism and he's pretty affected, then that became a whole other thing where it's like, okay, my life is his. Everything I do is through the prism of making sure I can support him for the rest of his life. Right. And it's been challenging, but it's also provided clarity for one creative fucked up person who's constantly riddled

with these kind of conflicts in your head. So it was kind of a gift in that regard. I understand it. It's the weird kind of, look, I don't want to say that your son being autistic is a negative. It's not a negative. It's just a fact of life. But when you get a piece of information that profound that you weren't planning on, it alters your perspective.

Absolutely. I get it. Well, at the time, I was very scared for him because it was like 20 years ago and there weren't autism advocates. There weren't people who were autistic who were advocates. There was one woman, Temple Grandin, who's brilliant. But that was it.

And all the charities, everything was all about a cure, a cure, a cure. And so you get sucked into that like, okay, don't worry, we're going to get a cure. This is horrible and we're going to get a cure. And then my wife and I went through various ways of trying to help them and we kind of realized through seeing other parents that there's just not enough resources for kids who have autism who need help and need kind and effective therapy.

So that's when we started this night of too many stars show and we made it all about family services and schools and nothing about research because nobody else was doing it. You know, you go do that again, the night of too many stars. I'm going to do one, um,

doing it. You know, you go do that again. The night of too many stars. I'm going to do one, um, hopefully next spring with Netflix on, uh,

on their festival. I'm hoping I did one. I did one. Uh, I mean, at the time I went in, this is 2003 and I'm like, I know everybody in show business. I have so many friends at least that I've worked with.

They'll all come Sandler and Conan and everybody. I know I'd be an asshole not to do this. It's what I basically came to the conclusion of. So, so yeah, we've done like. Sam was an interesting figure. I'm glad you brought him up. Oh, he's the greatest. I think so.

Right. He's an interesting one because there's someone who I don't think is ever, he's extremely popular and he gets the money, but I don't think he but I don't think he really gets the kudos for what he's done. Oh, the work he's done. Yeah, because that movie you did with him, the Zohan movie, that's a great movie. That is a great movie. It's a great movie. I love that movie.

I don't know how people would feel watching it now. Well, I think it's kind of necessary now. In some ways. I think it's kind of necessary now, more than ever. In some ways. As I remember, you know, the relationship, Zohan was the, he was the Israeli hairdresser and his girlfriend was the Palestinian, right? Yes, and Zohan really, yes, he was a Mossad agent

who was like almost a superhero, but his dream was to become a hairstylist. A hairstylist, yes. And then, yeah, I mean, what holds up, I'm sure, is the notion that ultimately these people learn that they live together and work together in the same neighborhood in Brooklyn, and that it's only all these, just how similar they are. That was sort of the ultimate point of the movie.

I remember the feeling of the movie. Because the movie I thought, I'm going to watch one of Adam Sandler's laugh out loud, kind of like guilty pleasure movies, right? Right. And it had that. Sure. And then going, oh, okay. Which I think is a real gift.

When you see a movie, when you think it's going to be one thing and it is that thing, but it also gives you a little more stuff as well. Like it's got a soul in it a little bit. Yeah, no, I was happy. I'm happy with jokes. Jokes are great. Yes.

Yeah, but the choice to make the bad guy someone, I mean, it's a cliche. It was an American real estate developer and who was going to raise their neighborhood but at the same time the choice of just making the point that they are the same in this country they could be the same anywhere we could just let go well that that's the another thing is it's part of the maybe because it's the immigrant experience for me. I went back to Scotland about five years ago and I went back for, for five years. And ultimately I'm like, I'm not from here anymore. I need to get back to New York.

Yeah. I need to go back to America. And I have come back and I'm back in America. Right. And it, it was nothing to America. And I have come back, and I'm back in America. And it was nothing to do... I love Scotland. This is a great place, but I belong here for whatever fucking reason.

I think what happens is when you become an immigrant, when you get that, when that thing gets in, it doesn't go... For me, it won't go away. No, I hear you. I mean, this is a great country in many ways. It kind of is. I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians, actors in the world.

We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love and everything in between. This life right here, just finding myself, just relaxation, just not feeling stressed, just not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of. I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly. Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone.

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, A Really Good Cry. We're going to talk about and go through all the things

that are sometimes difficult to process alone. We're going to go over how to regulate your emotions, diving deep into holistic personal development, and just building your mindset to have a happier, healthier life. We're going to be talking with some of my best friends. I didn't know we were going to go there. People that I admire. When we say listen to your body, really tune in to what's going on. Authors of books that have changed my life. Now you're talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy, right?

And basically have conversations that can help us get through this crazy thing we call life. I already believe in myself. I already see myself. And so when people give me an opportunity, I'm just like, oh great, you see me too. We'll laugh together, we'll cry together

and find a way through all of our emotions. Never forget, it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one. Listen to A Really Good Cry with Radhi Dabluke on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Gore Vidal, recently I've been reading,

I was going to say rereading, and I thought that's a lie because I never read him. I've been reading The Empire, the say rereading and i thought that's a lie because i never read them i've been reading the empire the novels of empire series go gorvodal wrote seven books i think it's seven books five or seven books about the birth of america right it's like in the 80s i think he wrote these i think he wrote them across the whole thing i mean they're interspersed and they wrote them out of order but he starts with the the biography of aaron burr who was fucking crazy yeah i but i what i love about people are going it's never been this

bad in america you go it's never been anything but aaron burr killed a guy and then ran away raised an army to be the emperor of mexico while he's vice president of the United States. If you did that, you know how crazy social media would go. I know. I know. You know, it's like people have no idea how insane. Plus the fact, I don't know why I really feel is a skill that we've lost is raising an army. Like I wouldn't know where to begin raising an army.

Like people were raising an all through history. People are right. You raised an army, right? Right. I just look at where to begin raising an army. Iron Burr. Like, people were raising an army. All through history, people are like, you raised an army. Right, right. How the fuck do you raise an army? I can't. I can't do that. It's so far into us. Get someone's attention in a store. Raise an army.

He didn't have TikTok. Yeah, but. He had to do something. He had to raise an army. With his time. But here's what I like about these Gore Vidal books is they

actually I saw Chuck Todd the other night talking about it because someone was saying do you you know because he's a history buff and he was saying yeah and actually

that's where I get my solace when the politics is on fire everyone's like it's never been this bad and you go yeah it's kind of always

there are times when it hasn't been this bad, but, you know, there was like... Been way worse. Yeah, when McKinley was shot. That was better. Nobody even talks about that. You know, it's like, oh, Teddy Roosevelt. They go, yeah, Teddy Roosevelt.

You know why he became president? Because they shot the other, the guy who annexed the Philippines. What the hell? Nobody told me about this. And I think the perspective of America I my patriotism for America as an immigrant was very jingoistic at first it was naive and jingoistic and I think that's okay I think when you come in as a page as an immigrant that's kind of appropriate and as you get to know the place you go well it maybe isn't that but Jesus Christ it's

interesting it's a very interesting place historically and just every other way yeah and i love that thing pj o'rourke said about the american wherever the american embassy is in the world there's always two crowds outside it there's always two crowds outside two crowds yeah there's one crowd of people protesting against evil america yeah and another crowd of people waiting for visas and you see them crossing over. They're burning the flag. They're signing the form. They're burning the flag.

They're signing the form. You know, it's perfect. And it kind of feels like that a little bit. Like, yeah, sometimes I think the hyperbole of this never been this bad. You go,

it's kind of like, you know, when it rains in LA and people say, it's never been this bad. go it's kind of like you know when it rains in la and people say it's never been this bad every fucking year it's this bad every year yeah no you're right other than global warming that's the only chicken little that's pretty bad ascribed to that's pretty bad yeah that's a pretty bad thing but that was that thing george carlin used to say the earth will be fine we're fucked i know i know, I know. It is what it is. No, it's maddening.

It's maddening how the shit that matters the most is just boring to people. Well, it's kind of, it's up to people like you, maybe me too, to try and get an earworm in there that's a little different. My friend Adam McKay has basically devoted all his time to making comedy and mobilizing people just for that cause alone. And so I appreciate that.

I kind of went the other way. When Stephen Colbert took over the Late Night Show, and he went deep politics. he went running right at it. Which I think as it turned out was the right choice for the show and for him. Yeah, and he was coming off a political. Right, exactly. Had I done it, I would have probably done it the other way. And I think that would have been a mistake.

I think that show, that time slot needed that. And I told him that when I was on the show. I mean, you know, especially when Trump came into power, because just people became obsessed with him. And, you know, CNN and all these news networks, as much as they complained about him, they loved it. They loved the attention he draws. So they made him, you know, every press, every rally, you know, it was, there it is.

And because it was just like, you must see TV in their mind. I kind of, but what happens is with every show, you get to season fucking six. And people go, it's not what it was. It could be. It's not what it was. And, you know, I liked it before they added Scrappy-Doo.

Remember? You know what I'm saying? Is that J.D. Vance? Is he Scrappy-Doo? He might be Scrappy-Doo. That's what I'm saying. He might be Scrappy-Doo. You know what I mean?

It's like in The Simpsons when they added, remember they added that character on the skateboard to try and appeal to kids? It was very funny. Oh, right.

Yes. God, I can't remember what it was very funny. Oh, right, yes. God, I can't remember what it was. But that's kind of, I think, and I do this thing, when I'm doing stand-up now, I mean, it's absolute fucking rule. I don't talk about politics at all. I do feel like it's really hard for me

to watch late-night shows consistently because of that, because I just want to escape from that. Well, there's got to be at least some option for, for that. Because I think that's the, cause I'm sick. No, even people I agree with,

I'm like, yeah, I agree with you. Shut the fuck up. You know? Yeah. I mean, Fallon to some degree,

like he touches on it, but it's not. In a more traditional way. In a more, yeah. In a more tonight show, Johnny Carson kind of way where you don't feel like, okay, I really need to be invested right now and be fired up and angry.

I can just kind of look at it. And I think there's a real... And I'm not disparaging anyone else who does more politics, but it's nice to have somebody doing that. Well, I think also the idea of it is... I was fascinated at a conversation I had with Jim Gaffigan. Did you know Jim? Yeah, a little bit.

He's a great guy. Great guy. Yeah, and I was talking about it because he does a completely clean act, right? Famously. Now, Jim cusses and... Oh, in real life, yeah. Yeah, he just talks like everybody else.

Right, but his act is clean. I don't know how he does it. That's what I was asking him. And he said, it was, and he used this phrase and I went, hmm.

He said, it's a stylistic choice. I set myself a task. And I went, okay. And so when I was like, this was probably right about 2016,

maybe a little after that, if I'm honest, I started to go, I feel everybody, everybody says the name Trump. Everybody says, everybody's got a fucking thing. And that's fine.

Of course, they must be able to do that. But I'm going to make, and I use, I'm going to make a stylistic choice not to talk about any of it. And so I started to write stuff. It was only about family.

It was only about personal experience. It was only about... Oh, any of it. And so I started to write stuff. It was only about family. It was only about personal experience. It was only about... Oh, people appreciate it. You would think that people, you know, a lot of comics think, oh, I got to pander. I got to give them what they want. But no, there's real value in letting people escape. Absolutely.

I think that, and I think also the idea of, you know, the only kind of, the pushback I got from it was not from people who were right-leaning. Right. I know. I know. That was the interesting thing. You gotta, you gotta be a part of this.

You gotta, you gotta speak up. There's too much at stake. Yeah. It's like, can't anybody just be a comedian? Do you know when, you know, like a real comedian? Did you ever go to the White House Correspondents Dinner? I have. I performed there.

Oh, did you? Did you do it? the White House Correspondents Dinner? I have. I performed there. Oh, did you? Did you do it? What went? Okay, so 1995, back when I was doing, and I will say this, what I liked about our political humor on Conan was how unique it was to our show and silly. Like, Conan would do very light monologue, and then he would occasionally interview a famous person, but it was a photograph. Right. And the he would occasionally interview a famous person, but it was a photograph. And that was me. 90% of the time it was me. And I got to do it at the

White House Correspondents Dinner. Bill Clinton was the president. And that was our first real hit character was Bill Clinton. Probably him and Michael Jackson. I did that a lot too back then, but when he was married to Lisa Marie, but Bill Clinton knew about the bit and they invited Conan to do the dinner and Conan was like, yeah, you're going to come and you're going to do it. And I couldn't believe it. But yeah, we go up there. I get to meet Bill Clinton and Hillary. And Conan says, this is the guy who does it. And he just gives me that upside down smile that he had. I really enjoy it.

Yeah. Didn't say a word. And then, so we're doing it. So first Conan does like 10 minutes on his own, maybe 15 even. And he kills, just jokes, just what you're supposed to do. Sure. And he was fantastic. One of the funniest ones I'd ever seen. And then he brings me on, and I'm like, oh, shit, maybe.

And then, but I'm killing at first, and nobody's laughing harder than Clinton. I don't know if it's manufactured to show he's a good sport, but he literally sounds like a donkey. He's just like, oh, ho, ho, oh, ho, oh, ho, ho. And Hillary's smiling because, you know, there was no way she was going to laugh at this nonsense, but she's smiling and enjoying it. And then we get to a point where, so this is back when I was younger and I had a chip on my shoulder creatively. I was like, we're not just going to go there and kiss their ass. You know, we got to do some jokes that are a little edgy, you know?

So we write this joke. So the premise was Clinton finds out that he's on C-SPAN, that the show's on C-SPAN. He's like, oh, that's like a tree in the forest. I can say anything I want. I inhaled everybody, you know, that kind of stuff. And it's killing. And so he's making more confessions.

And then there was this joke and Conan and I remember right before we went on, Conan was like, should we do this? Is this too much? And I was like, why don't you call an audible? Cause I was like, I didn't, this was the joke. It was like Clinton saying like, I got high with Willie Nelson on the roof of the Kremlin. I don't even remember what the context was, but it was one of his confessions and it made sense comedically in 1995. So I was like, I think it'd be good to do an edgy joke, but maybe you call an audible. And he's like, I don't want to call an audible. I don't want to deal with that. This is like, he's at the White House Correspondents Dinner. Let's just commit to what Conan says. So we do it. And then later Dick Cavett, who was in the audience, comes up to Conan.

And he says, when you made that joke about Willie Nelson and the Kremlin, Hillary's face went from Dr. Jekyll to Mr. Hyde. And literally we bombed the rest of the way. I could not recover from that moment that's interesting and it's because of hillary's face i guarantee it because everybody emperor of austria well but it's like you're watching this guy being imitated to his face and everybody's going to be transfixed on them on their reaction yeah of course and bill was hee-hawing, and that was great. But Hillary, I was told she just did that.

Just looked down, just like, when's this going to be over kind of thing. And it killed the room. And the saddest thing is that I was almost done, but then it was like, and then we're going to have Jimmy Carter come on. And my friend Tom Agnew, another writer, came on as Jimmy Carter with a gigantic smile because he had big teeth and all that. And it always killed at Conan, and we thought, oh, this will be a great topper.

But they wanted us. They wanted you out of there? They wanted us out of there, and it's like we still have fucking Jimmy Carter to bring on. That's a bad feeling. Yeah, yeah, and I just knew it, but I knew Conan wasn't going to call an audible. And we just like labored through it.

And they politely applauded. But yes, that was... So I got to experience this and this. Well, it's funny. I did it in five minutes. Yeah. So I did it the last of George Bush. Of George Bush.

Wow. Right. So as I go into this- Were you the year after Colbert or two years after? Two years after. The year after Stephen, they put on Rich Little. I think they over-corrected the airplane. You know what I mean?

Like, whoa! Rich Little. So Stephen went hard one way. He went hard. And let me just tell you, I helped him a little with that. He read all the jokes to me. I gave him a couple, and I was so excited. I was like, this is going to kill because no one's ever made these jokes at their face while complimenting them.

He was playing the Bill O'Reilly, suck-up Republican. So I thought, oh, this is the smartest way to do this. But, of course, George Bush gave him nothing. Never smiled. And he was just in a well from the moment he made his first joke. But I was very proud of him anyway. He went through with it. For going for it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He did it. He committed. Yeah, so go ahead. So the year I do it, so it's two years after Stephen's done that. Yeah. Bush is still in power, right?

And they had Rich Little the year before, and no one seemed to be bothered with that at all. Yes. And then before, you know when everyone stands up in the dais, or sits up in the dais, right? Yeah. So there's that little reception room beforehand, and I'm standing there talking to the President of the United States.

I had just become a citizen. And I'm talking to the president of the United States. I had just become a citizen. And I'm talking to the president of the United States. And I had in my head stuff I was going to do. And I had one joke that I was going to do at the top. And I talked to Ted Mulkerin and Jonathan Marano, who are the writers I had been working with there. Okay. And I said, should we do this joke?

Were these their writers or your writing my right okay good right so i i'm like should we do this i don't know the joke was just it's great to be such a steam company and at the time this was a better joke than it is now but it's good nice to be in such a steam company these people will not be seen together again until the trial that was the joke it was it's not great joke, but it was a good joke then. And I said, I'm not going to do that joke. It's the first joke up. The first joke up.

It was the first joke up. Yeah. And I thought, I'm not going to do that joke, because if I do that joke, they're going to think that I, and I didn't do that joke, and I'm glad I didn't. But I remember thinking... I wish you'd been around when I started the Dana Carvey show with breastfeeding Bill Clinton.

Don't start with that. Don't start with that joke. All right, we got to go. Let me just say one thing, if you don't mind. Yeah. I really want to say how much I appreciate... I've already talked about how much I liked your show, but something you did really

struck me back when you did it, which was in 2000, I think right around then maybe when Britney Spears was having all those problems and you came out and, and you in a very humane way, just explained why you can't make these kinds of jokes. And I just really, it really struck me in a huge way because I have very few lines that I won't cross when I do comedy, obviously. But one of them was always, I never wanted to make fun of addicts and I never wanted to make fun of people who were struggling with something that was beyond their control. were struggling with something that was beyond their control. And I remember one time, Conan, they wanted me to play Nick Nolte after that mugshot. They wanted me to do Nick Nolte's mugshot.

And I said, I really don't want to do this. I just feel bad for the guy. And Conan was like, you don't want to do it? I was like, yeah, there's certain things I really don't like to do. I've broken the rule a few times, but... I've broken my own rule too. Yeah, yeah. And I regret having done it, but...

Yeah, me too. But the Nick Nolte thing, what was so funny about it was literally like a week and a half later, the Oscars come on and my comedy idol, Steve Martin is the host. And one of the punchlines was basically giant Nick Nolte mugshot right behind him, the whole world laughing at Nick Nolte's mugshot with Steve Martin's approval. And I just, Penalties mugshot with Steve Martin's approval. I just,

uh, it's just, some things are just too big to pass up, I guess. Well, that was, well, that was,

it was a very funny mugshot. It was a very funny mugshot. So I don't blame Steve Martin, but it was like, but anyway, Brittany was too big to pass up for everybody except you. And I really, really respected you for that thanks man well uh i respect

you for the body of work but i think if i'm honest maybe the top thing for me has always been the dog yeah the dog is i mean that's going to be on my tombstone. Stairway to heaven. You know what I mean? This is a lovely tombstone for me to poop on. Yeah. I mean, it's like, you know, you go to Kashmir, you go, you know, rock and roll, but stairway to heaven. I know. Although I'm really proud of Leo. I don't know if you've seen it. I've not seen Leo, actually.

You should see it. You should see it. I'm really proud of it. It's a different kind of thing. But it's Sandler and Bill Burr on Netflix. It's a kids animated movie, but adults will like it. And I have kids. It's a very popular movie.

I have kids. You have kids? I do. Your kids are older. Yeah, my kids are older. What is your kids? They're 16 now. My younger ones are 16. My youngest one is 13 and a half. Oh, he'll like it. Going on 47.

50, yeah. No, I get it. He might think he's too old for it, but he's not. It's about fifth grade class. It's about a jaded class pet who's been in the same classroom for 70 years, and he just enters every season, every new year with cynicism. Like, ah, here comes, uh, you know, here come the tween queens. They think they're better than everybody. Oh, this guy's,

this is the always sick and should have stayed calm kid, you know, and it's him and Bill Burr just being very cynical. But over the course of the movie, he finds out that he thinks he's going to die. And then he wants to escape and, you know, go see the Everglades and catch flies. And then he gets caught at a kid's house and accidentally speaks. And then they end up talking and he ends up giving the kid, the kid opens up to him because it's just a lizard and she feels comfortable talking to him. And then he actually is capable of giving advice, he realizes, because he's seen every kind of kid. And then he becomes addicted to helping the kids. And it sounds kind of serious, but it's very silly and funny.

But I'm just really, really proud of it. I will watch it in the next day or two. No, no rush. No, no, I'll do it. Let me know what you think. Then I'll call you with Noah. Please. See you later.

Thanks, bud. All right. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez, and on my podcast,

I like to talk to everyone from Hall of Fame athletes to iconic musicians about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. I had the best dad, and I had the best memories and the greatest experience. And that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Want to know how to leverage culture to build a successful business?

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