Joy, a Podcast. Hosted by Craig Ferguson - Shirley Manson

Episode Date: September 26, 2023

This week Craig sits down with one of his long time friends Shirley Manson, the lead singer of the American alternative rock band Garbage. They talk about touring experiences, culture, music and much more. This is a Glasgow vs Edinburgh episode. enJOY!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling, as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said, like, in my head for, like, 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez.

And on my podcast, I like to talk to everyone from Hall of Fame athletes to iconic musicians about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. I had the best dad. And I had the best dad and I had the best memories and the greatest experience. And that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, A Really Good Cry. We're going to be talking with some of my best friends.

I didn't know we were going to go there. People that I admire. When we say listen to your body, really tune in to what's going on. Authors of books that have changed my life. Now you're talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy. Never forget, it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one. Listen to A Really Good Cry with Radhi Devlukia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, everybody. This is Craig Ferguson letting you know that my Fancy Rascal Tour continues throughout the fall of 2023. For a full list of dates and tickets, please go to my website, thecraigfergusonshow.com. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness. Here's one of my old friends. Her name is Shirley Manson.

She's the lead singer with a band called Garbage. I first met her. She was the lead singer of Oh Well. You'll find out. Enjoy. I'll just say nice things about you. But if I say nice things about you now... Say them.

No, because I don't want to say nice things about you now because you're Scottish, so you'll get angry at me. Who are you saying nice things about? I've been living here for a long time now. I like compliments. Do they try and take your Scottishness away from you when you go home? No, don't be ridiculous. They do it to me.

What do you mean? Sometimes. I think it's because you're from Edinburgh. Edinburgh people are nicer to each other. No, you're more famous than me. No, that's not true, Shirley Manson. That is true. famous than me no that's not true that is true that is not true that is true Craig Ferguson no no that is not true

you are super famous no you are no you oh this is great well goodnight everybody goodnight we're done here the

I think in the Edinburgh side of things I think people are nicer about it I think in Glasgow they try and say your accent you're not even Scottish anymore but I think in Edinburgh they try and say your accent's you're not even Scottish anymore but I think in Edinburgh

they're like no it's okay you can you're allowed to be successful elsewhere and then come back to Edinburgh lots of people do it but in Glasgow

they get fucking mad at you yeah I think that's probably fair they're a wee bit easier on you in Edinburgh yeah they are but they've given me shit over the years well you can't get

tenured you're now tenured you're now a rock star that's tenured as rock star but you can't get tenured. You're now tenured, you're now a rock star that's tenured as rock star, but you can't get to that point without going through the, I like to call it the Zardoz period. Like even Sean Connery had to go through the Mancini before he became finally tenured. This is true. You know what I wanted to talk to you about today? I was just thinking when I was coming here today, what I want to talk to Shirley about. There's a couple of things. One is the Columbia Hotel. Oh, God.

Which we'll get to. And the other thing is you being 100% Viking. Yeah, I am. That's the weirdest thing. Like, you did a 23andMe and you're 100% one thing. I am, which is really unusual in this day and age. Well, Dane, I suppose. Viking is a verb, isn't it?

I don't know what they meant. I don't think Well, Dane, I suppose. Viking is a verb, isn't it? I don't know what they meant. I don't think I'm Dane, per se. Right. I'm not sure 100% what they meant by that. Yeah. You do have kind of a warrior spirit. Do you know what I mean? It's like, even as a performer,

even when I saw you when you were like a kid, when I was a kid and you were a kid, I was less of a kid than you were. Not by much. Not by much. But I remember even seeing you back then when you were a kid I was less of a kid than you were but not by much not by much but I remember like even seeing you back then when you were with the cool kids you still had that kind of like like you were a tough girl I guess you had to be but I think yeah well I am tough yeah you are yeah for sure and I am redheaded and I I am aware that I am in tune with my Viking roots.

For sure. Because rock music is very fucking, it's horrible. It's like a rugby thing almost, the way guys are. Actually, I was reading that thing recently that Courtney Love wrote about. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Yeah, it's what a lot of fucking bollocks that is. Do you know that I went to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Yeah, it's what a lot of fucking bollocks that is. Do you know that I went to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and I was looking around.

I was in Cleveland and, you know, there's limited things to do. And I was walking around the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and I saw an exhibit and it was that Buddy Holly exhibit. And I was like, oh yeah, Buddy Holly is a seminal artist. And I was looking at it and they had his glasses and I was looking at his glasses and I thought, wait a fucking minute.

Wasn't he wearing his glasses in the plane? These aren't his fucking because they were intact. If they were his glasses, they surely would have been broken. I'm going to just throw this out there and this might shake more than one. I don't know. I'm not sure. Ah, you cynic.

You Scottish cynic. No, I think they went to a fucking eye doctor. They went to like a spec saver or something just go give us a pair of the Buddy Hollies and we'll put it in the museum

when I was at school we did a museum of space and we did man's first footprint on the moon we had a shoebox full of sand and somebody

stood on it with their wellies and then that was it it was man's first step on the moon it wasn't really. That's quite amazing. No, I'm sorry.

I think that's quite amazing. Are you in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? I am. Are you really? You're one of the few women that are in it? Or is the band in it?

No, there's lots of women's articles and sort of testament to women, to be fair. And I actually loved my visit to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I couldn't get over it.

I thought like the Public Enemy exhibit was amazing. I just was angry at the Buddy Holly glasses. Yeah, no, fair enough. I couldn't get over it. I thought like the Public Enemy exhibit was amazing, you know. I just was angry at the Buddy Holly glasses. Yeah, no, fair enough. I mean, I get it. I mean, I'm just into music, so I was titillated, you know,

but I think there is a real issue with the whole patriarchal view of history. I mean, we face a problem. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely work being done on that now a little bit spread it out not enough

but enough I love Chrissie Hines take on it I mean who doesn't love her full stop she said anyone who thinks the rock and roll of fame

is getting to do with rock and roll knows fuck all about rock and roll which I thought oh god she's still fucking fantastic

tremendous were these because we were talking about Suzy Sue as well. These are artists who were a wee bit ahead of you chronologically, but they're the women that you kind of were looking up to when you were in Goodbye Mr. McKenzie and stuff. Yeah, I mean, I'm really lucky because I sort of fell in love

with the sort of second generation of women artists. Right. And they were all, for the most part, kind of rock and rollers, you know, like Debbie Harry, Chrissie Hynde, Patti Smith, even Stevie Nicks, you know. Stevie Nicks was awesome. I mean, yeah, she's real rock and roll. Yeah. Bird at heart, you know, so.

That's true, actually. I mean, that band, I mean, their music was very kind of accessible, but their lifestyle was wild. I know. So, yeah, I had an an amazing i had amazing women to look up to and they were the first generation of women who have been allowed to age which is again something that hasn't happened really historically is that women have been allowed to work i think still these women still i think the women still get it worse than men about aging

like you still see that like articles that look at her now yeah like it's awful i mean they do it they've done it to me and it's it's so gut-wrenching when it happens do you ever meet carrie fisher no i've never met carrie fisher although she was friendly with a lot of people i knew well carrie was a friend of mine i was very friendly with carrie and i loved her and she talked to me about that she said i didn't think when I was 24 years old and I put on that metal bikini in Star Wars that I was making a fucking contract

to look like that for the rest of my life. And I would be shamed and put in the pillory for not looking like that when I was 50 years old. Yeah. And I get it.

It's shockingly, it's the last bastion of open prejudice, I think. Well, I wish it was the last bastion of of open prejudice i think well i wish it was the last bastion but i think there's quite a few other bastions i think there's but i say open prejudice people try and kind of hide it a little bit they go oh yeah i'm very inclusive but i don't what they say now is they say it's woke if they want to kind of say that they don't like you or they're angry at what you think they call you woke well they call you woke when they feel a little guilty

that you're aware that they're being an absolute asshole towards someone else yeah I see I'm very capable of being an absolute asshole well look who you're talking to

I mean I'm really good at it too but I mean the stepping on people's necks currently I really find it frightening actually do you think it's worse

than it used to be? I do yeah really? I mean I think the world has always been awful right that's just how the world is you're only happy when it rains I think it's pretty bad right now I really do I think there's a very sort of just a right swing around the world all over the globe and it's allowed people to voice really horrible ideas about other people the awful thing I think about it is that if you believe in free speech, which I kind of do,

then I suppose you have to believe in the right of people to voice awful shit, which is a shame. Yeah, I don't know. See, I don't know if freedom of speech is to allow people to spew hate. I think it's really dangerous. But I understand that it's a very thin line, unfortunately. Is it? So who was it? Was it Rousseau or I think it was Rousseau who said, I may not agree with what you say,

but I will defend to the death your right to say it. Sounds like Rousseau. Sounds French. It does sound French. And then the French are god bless them they're mad again they're setting their garbage guys

are on strike they're setting fire to the town halls because they're raising the retirement age from 62 to 64 I'm like

I love that about the French though I love that they don't take it sitting down the idea of to riot

so who's rioting then? The 62-year-olds? Like, we're so angry. I'm so tired, but I've got one more riot in me. I'm going out. I'm burning down the town hall. God bless them. Let's see you roar.

I love it. I think it's great. I'm very envious of you in the fact that in your world, you get to play Paris and Madrid and South America and all that because music is universal. And what I do is just, you know, like, no, I have to talk to people who understand what the fuck I'm saying. Yeah, that's true. I never thought about it that way. That's horrible.

Just go and learn a few languages. I thought about it. Eddie, I thought... Mandarin. I'd like you to learn a little Mandarin. Do you know my son speaks Mandarin? See, it's great. He's really good at it. Well, I don't know if he's really good at it because I don't speak it. But other people seem to.

Amazing. Yeah, Chinese people kind of talk to him and he talks back. That's the coolest ever, I think, because it's really hard. Do you speak Mandarin? No, I wish I did. What do you speak then? Do you speak any? I speak a little bit of French. Ah, that's because you're from Edinburgh.

It's the old alliance. Scots and the French. Scots and the French Scots and the French against the English do you go back to Scotland a lot? because the last time I saw you was actually at Heathrow Airport we were both getting off a plane yes during Covid

and there was nobody else on the train but you and me and my husband but you were on the train and my husband got on the train and for some reason I was trawling behind

you nearly never got on the train I know and he was like sliding the train and my husband got on the train. And for some reason, I was trawling behind. You nearly never got on the train. I know. And he was like sliding the doors. And I suddenly pushed my way in. And I felt the annoyance of another, the only other passenger on the train. And to my horror. It was me. And also, worse than that, it was a Scottish person.

It's unbelievable. And Scottish people hate all the Scottish people unless they're prepared. Do you know what I mean? You have to be prepared for it. If you just run into a Scottish person and say, oh, he fucking thinks he's Scottish. He's not really Scottish! Oh my fucking god!

It's so weird, isn't it? It is quite weird. But Megan says that to me. She's like, what the fuck is it with you guys? I'm like, I don't know. No, we're just weird. We are very strange people. I love that, though. Yeah. I love the Scots., we're just weird. We are very strange people. I love that though.

Yeah. I love the Scots. I can't help myself. They are odd. Would you ever go back there and live, do you think? I would. I've talked about it. After COVID, I went kind of mad here living in LA.

Right. And I just woke up one day and there was literally 24 helicopters buzzing around our house and had been for hours and hours on end there were people protesting in the streets right and it was quite intense and heartbreaking and then there was an earthquake and i sat up bolt upright and shouted i want to go home well i did and yes you did i, I went home and it's raining. Yes, it's raining.

All the fucking time. I could have told you that though, love. It is always raining. Are you still in that amazing house? No, I moved to another amazing house. Do you want to buy the amazing house? I'm trying to sell that amazing house. I wish. Do you realize what happens? Musicians don't make enough money anymore. No, I don't know if that's true. You guys sell a lot. Mid-level musicians, trust me, don't make enough.

People think we're really rich because they think we're like Beyonce or The Weeknd. Right. It's not like that. Yeah, but, you know, well, fuck those guys. But I don't know.

I mean, that's not mid-level, though. I mean, you're playing big. You're going on tour with Noel Gallagher. We are. This year. I wouldn't describe either you or Noel Gallagher as, this year that i wouldn't describe either you or

no gallagher is like that's top tier fucking well it is top tier but it's still like i don't know there's just a huge gulf between us obviously and baby bands who are really struggling yeah and then us and those heavyweights that i've just mentioned like they make hand over fist you know and that's not the case for us. Like if we're not touring, we're not making money. Yeah, because records don't sell anymore, they don't kind of... You can't make money.

You can't make money through radio play like you used to. You just can't make any money unless you're getting your arse off the couch and traveling. Yeah, and it's hard work. It is, but it's also kind of interesting because the musicians that i tend to like i love music and i love musicians i am and i think like that i even think like that when i'm writing stand-up it has the the show has to run like a gig and i

tour with tamas who if he's not touring with me he's touring with dinosaur junior or or somebody i don't know if people are cooler than Dinosaur Jr. All the cool artists. But most of the people he deals with are quiet and introspective. And I'm like, hey, hey! Same.

Yeah, but you're a rock star. I'm just a vulgar lounge entertainer. That's why I love you. But the idea of, I think that the people that I tend to like, you are one of them as an artist.

You would do it if there was no money in it. Yeah. You know, it's what you do. Yeah. Because I remember, did I tell you this?

I toured with the Rolling Stones for a while. No, you haven't told me this. Yeah, I was writing a script with Mick Jagger. Oh my, how do I not you this? I toured with the Rolling Stones for a while. No, you haven't told me this. Yeah, I was writing a script with Mick Jagger. Oh my, how do I not know this story? Well, we never made the movie, but I got fired. But I toured with him for a couple of months and it was on the Bridges to Babylon tour,

so it was a while ago. But I remember watching Keith Richards, who became the focus of my fascination, not Mick. Mick's a, I'm not saying, I'm not comparing myself to Meg, but he's an entertainer. He's like a razzle-dazzle show-off man. But I became fascinated by Keith Richards, who if he was playing a pub in South London,

he'd be just as happy. I don't think he really even sees that world. Yeah, I agree. I mean, that's what makes him so extraordinary. But that's what I think makes the bands... I mean, when you talk about Beyonce or The Weeknd, I don't know anything really about those artists. I know they're huge and people love them,

but it doesn't seem to me to be the same kind of thing. That's show business. And rock and roll and show business, to me, are a little different. Rock and roll is kind of like circus folk really you know it's kind of I think that's fair disreputable but it's very out of vogue to be a sort of rock and roller it'll come back around of course it will yeah but it's funny I once met Cara Noah at a party for the lead singer of the yeah yeah yes and we were talking about rock music

and I said to her something along the lines of you know oh god yeah i know but i really embarrassed to be a you know a rock and roller and she went how can you possibly be embarrassed we're like a dying breed you are you're fucking rock and roll being a rock and roller yeah it's the coolest and i was like it totally changed my kind of like view on it it fucking is I mean it's like being like the women that you mentioned

Debbie Harry and Susie Sue incredible Chrissy Hine I mean they're just fucking seminal artists and I think that it transcends so much

rock and roll when it's done right like it's that feeling of you know I think it was the guy in Sun what was the what's the name of that guy that does a hit that runs you know that I think it was the guy in Sun what's the name of that guy

that runs, you know that band Sun that did the really loud drone metal stuff they're talking about absorbing the sound through your body, not just your ears but like the whole that to me rock and rolls like that, since I saw

Hawkwind when I was 13 years old in the Glasgow Apollo just a fucking size of it it's crazy and I don't think you get that with

you know the stadium shows I don't think it's the same thing no I agree but I think it's definitely out of vogue to voice you know

fury and lust and you know even like unbridled joy. It's just uncool for some reason. And it's all this very contained pop music currently

that people are really into. But everybody that you're ever going to meet has got streaks of darkness in them. And that's what rock music voices. I love what Robert Fripp said about rock and roll and pop. Do you ever hear that? No. He's incredible though. What a weird hear that? No, he's incredible.

I mean, he invented the guitar solo style. I mean, but Robert Fripp said about rock, he said, the difference between pop music and rock and roll is that in pop music, people fall in love and kiss each other in rock and roll someone's getting fucked amazing that is amazing cool i love it it's just when you say you know voice and lust and fury and uh and that to me is uh that's the difference i guess and so let me take you on a journey if i may you may back to the we were talking briefly about the Columbia Hotel in London you're talking about

in London yeah when I stayed there when I was drumming in bands it would be like I guess the early to mid 1980s which you would have been

well I was there you were kicking off with Goodbye Mr. McKenzie at that time right like they were a sizable band in the UK

at that time yeah they were they were doing well and that hotel that's where everyone used to go in well it's the rock and roll hotel it was it was like London's I guess Riot Hyatt Riot Hyatt Riot or Riot Hyatt wherever it was I got into a fight there once you were very unruly when you were young. I mean, you're unruly enough now. No, but I got into a fight with Mark Allman's manager. How did you manage that? I don't know. I can't remember. It wasn't really a proper fight.

I think it was a lot of pushing and shoving and stuff. But I think we were both out of shape and a bit scared. So it was like a lot of, fuck you, fuck you. But that, and I remember people in the bar of that hotel getting really twisted. Oh. Did you do a lot of that?

We did a lot of that. I mean, my first band, Goodbye Mr. McKenzie, was wild. Like, proper wild. Yeah, they were. Like, proper rock and roll. Yeah, yeah. Lifestyle. Punk rock, really.

Punk rock. Yeah. And everything has been very tame ever since, to be honest. Even our wildest days in garbage had nothing on Goodbye Mr. McKenzie but yeah

being in that bar I can still really remember that bar in the Columbia Hotel the curtains the weird curtains and the carpet the carpet was

it wasn't really a carpet it was just like old beer and semen I was just actually going to go somewhere like that myself but you're right. Very crusty.

It was awful. But I think that the anecdotal part of that, I mean, I suppose things move on, but does that still exist for young musicians? People are still doing that? Yeah. Although it's apparently the new generation are risk averse. You know, they're just not as wild as we all used to be.

They're a bit more, they know a lot more. That's probably okay. But there's still, of course, there are still wild sides to the rock and roll business. I feel sorry for the younger generation because everything is documented. So every mistake they make, it's there forever. That's why I think they do's there forever you know that's why i think they do temper themselves a little more than we did i mean i would take my top off in the bar you know at the columbia hotel just to be a brat well i'm so glad you call it being a brat

everybody else would say isn't she a great girl a great gal but you know a big show offy yeah yeah like shocking first... I don't know why I did that, but I did it. And now I don't think there's that many. You can't do that anymore. I think also kids... I don't know, I mean, because I'm kind of at the get-off-my-lawn age, but I kind of see the younger generation.

I think they're great. I actually think they're great. I think they're great, too. They're challenging. They're fucking... They're difficult and they're annoying. I actually think they're great. I think they're great too. They're challenging. They're fucking, they're difficult and they're annoying. So that's good.

Everything is good in that respect. But I feel sorry for them because they are risk averse a little bit. They are a little, they police themselves a little too much.

Yeah, and they're all worried. Apparently, there's a lot of anxiety and depression and I don't know, God, we're getting very dark today. No, I don't know. But I feel bad for them

and they're not having as much sex as we used to have that's another weird sort of twist to the tale. They'll probably avoid antibiotics They might not need the antibiotics That's what I was thinking but it was an odd environment I suppose

it was very kind of bacchanalian I wonder now here's an interesting thing because I thought if I was looking at that now and if I had a daughter in that environment that I was in so when you were a young girl I'd be like oh I don't know how I'd feel about that

I mean you are tough and I think that's okay but I think there were girls there who weren't tough who were like that'd be fucking scary there were some bad guys around I mean there's okay but I think there were girls there who weren't tough who were like that'd be fucking scary there were some bad guys around yeah I mean there's still

bad guys around yes there are that's true I don't think that's changed any unfortunately the percentage of dudes that want to

hurt girls is perplexing to me I don't understand it it's really beyond my understanding I mean those people that's a different thing I mean yes they exist

but what I'm thinking more is just the general kind of bloakery. Yes, it's gross. I mean, there is still that, unfortunately, in the music industry. It's really bad, actually, but it's not quite as bad as it was in the 80s. Yeah, I think that it's funny, I get out of it very quickly. I mean, I was out of it, by the time I was 21, I wasn't drumming anymore. Wow, wild. I wish I could say the same. I never got out of it really. Well, I think I regret getting out of it. Sometimes, and then I see how much a drummer makes now, and I'm like, yeah, you know. Yeah, you've made a good choice. Hey everybody! It's a great day. Yay! Oh, cheeky monkeys.

Well, it's very free still if you want it to be being a musician. Yeah. You can really live pretty freely and that's the greatest gift. Does anyone live free though if we're all taking video of each other all the time though? That's getting very profound. Well, I know, but it's just like we fucking volunteered to be in this fucking Big Brother society. We don't even need Big Brother. We do it to our fucking selves.

It's like you volunteer to, we live in this giant fucking neighborhood watch scheme. We do. And yet there's so much content now and there's so much testimony. I don't know if you're any more you know i feel like you're as anonymous as you always were i mean who fucking cares yeah i don't care it's like fucking i don't care if you're watching me or filming me i really don't give a toss right well that's because you're a rock and roll star but if you were applying for a job in denny's they're gonna fucking google you when you turn up oh i see what you're saying and then they see you with your top off in the bar in the club and they're like

nanosecond you know i think she should be actually the hostess so bad but it's it's kind of no i see what you're saying i think it's it's a shame but i don't know what you do about it just don't put your tits or your arse or your cock on the internet. It's really pretty simple. But once it's done, it's done. I don't know though. So are you going back to South America and all that kind of stuff? Do you live inside the bubble of the tour?

No. Or do you force yourself out into the world? I always insist on going out and I literally send our security guard into like mad anxiety. He can hardly handle it. But I'm like, I want to go and do this and I want to do that and I want to see this. And yeah, I'm a huge culture whore.

So I'll go anywhere and do anything and he just has to keep up with me. Do you think that helps in the business of writing and creativity to do that? Because I always think that if you start writing songs about how great you are and how much money you have, you lose me a little bit as an audience member. I think it's really inspiring. I mean, I just think about our last record,

which is arguably the most political I've ever gotten. It's not even that political, but it was inspired by going to South America and seeing what was going on in Chile. And basically the people's uprising because they just couldn't take the disparity between the rich and the poor any longer and they went out into the streets and they fucked shit up and they eventually got change in their constitution, which was so inspiring to me It was really moving and I would never ever have had that experience had I not gone down there yeah so were you there when it was yeah when I was kicking off and it was wild and I saw shit that I will never recover from to be honest violent shit yeah really crazy stuff

we were in traffic we're stuck in traffic because it was crazy and there were literally millions of people in the streets and yeah we passed a police station and they were blaring music and you heard someone screaming above the blaring music and and then the government was you know they didn't have clean water and they weren't giving people access to clean water if you weren't rich couldn't afford water and we were driving through this Chilean countryside just outside Santiago and there was just fields of dead horses because they couldn't and it was really heavy you know like that is just heavy heavy stuff and it was just because they had a corrupt government that believed that it was fine for the

poor to suffer as long as they had their wealth and and it just put into highlight to me how insane capitalism is and how this just obsession with money and power is. This is an official invitation to the Fancy Rascals Stand-Up Show. I, Craig Ferguson, will be performing this fall in your region. You can buy tickets and check out the full list of dates at thecraigfergusonshow.com slash tour. See you there. Or not.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is. I think he was like, oh yeah, things come and go.

But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down and out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast, Miss Spelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians, actors in the world. We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love, and everything in between. This life right here, just finding myself, just relaxation, just not feeling stressed, just not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of. I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly. Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have

a story to tell, if you've come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone. You're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Back in 1969, this was the hottest song around. So hot that some guys from Michigan tried to steal it. The time of the season for the beat. My name is Daniel Ralston. For 10 years, I've been obsessed with one of the most bizarre and audacious cons in rock and roll history.

A group would have a hit record, and quickly they would hire a bunch of guys to go out and be the group. People were being cheated on several levels. After years of searching, we bring you The True Story of the Fake Zombies. I was like blown away. These guys are not going to get away with it.

Listen to The True Story of the Fake Zombies on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That's interesting that you would say that capitalism is insane. Well, the type of capitalism that we have. I'm not anti-capitalist, but... It's an interesting thing though because i remembered when i was very young because i'm from glasgow and you're from edinburgh

and i always thought people from edinburgh had more money than people from glasgow and i think it's a kind of broad stroke rule of thumb it was a richer city that's true yeah it was a bank capital and and then also just that time in in the 80s that that kind of was true and then so i had been always raised in a very like my grandfather was a red clydesider and all that that kind of was true and then so I had been always raised in a very like my grandfather was a red Clydesider and all that stuff so I was a very socialist ethos and and everywhere I looked and the first time I did you ever go to Russia when the Soviets were in charge because I never did I my sister did but I never did I only went after it kicked off and everything went crazy kind of gangsterism over in like the post-Soviet boom, capitalism boom. And I remember being there and someone talking about capitalism and saying, the problem with capitalism is it requires a reasonably honest police force.

And it doesn't have to be 100% honest, but it has to be reasonably honest. And if it's not reasonably honest, you've got Chicago in the 1920s or Moscow in the 1990s or it sounds to me like... I don't know any about Chile. But I feel like that's interesting.

If there's a crisis, not government, police. If there's a crisis in police, then you've got a crisis in society. Because people don't trust the police, or if the police aren't trustworthy, or both, then that's when you get real fucking problems in capitalists, or any society, I suppose, when you think about it. And then when you mix that with police and government, you're in a lot of trouble. Are you an American citizen? I am. It's funny because I think when you become a citizen, you're allowed to participate in that.

Before I was a citizen, I would never talk about any politics here. I don't really talk about it now, actually, because I'll talk to you about it because we're talking, but I would never in the act talk about politics I wouldn't do it but you're also you were in real mainstream like entertainment and I don't know if you're you certainly in this country are you in adverted commas tolerate it's not tolerated I think it is actually I think I think if you look at what I was doing then like I was in late night but you were there to make people feel good, yeah? If you tossed on about politics, you would have lasted a five minute.

All Late Night shows are all political now. They're all political. I mean, the whole thing is. And even if I was still doing it, to not be political would be seen as being political. They would assume you were right wing unless you were like being. It's a very different climate. It is. Well, I think it started

we watched the tv run about 2016 because i think it kicked off around then yeah i think you might be right i mean things have just got so polarized polarized and crazy and unreasonable yeah you know when you talk about reasonable police we don't currently have a reasonable police, we don't currently have a reasonable police force. We don't even have reasonable political parties. They're both unreasonable as far as I'm concerned, the right and the left. I think it goes all the way across. I mean, I think if you think about it, I had friends in my life.

I still do have friends in my life. I find that very hard to believe. Yeah, one or two. I have friends in my life, people who I think are fucking idiots and their views are shit and they're just, you know,

what they think and how the world should be run is awful. But they're my friend. What are you going to do? So, you know, I just don't bring that up when I'm talking to them.

And I wonder, I wonder if that is dying out with the sense of the, if you have the algorithm that only in your if your friendships or your interactions socially are fueled by your phone or your it's just your phone let's not talk about computers it's your fucking phone so all your interactions are informed by the algorithm will show you this because this is what it wants you to see you're being led away from discourse and led into you know one-sided yeah yeah and the inability to debate computers can't debate there's ones or zeros so they don't have they talk about ai but

ai is fucking bullshit it's a lie i don't think it's not it's not a lie it fucking bullshit. It's a lie. I don't think it can work. It's not a lie. It's a bias. There's a difference. Right, right. Okay. Yeah, you're right. It does exist, but it doesn't have that thing. It's pop music versus rock and roll. It's, sure, you listen through your ears, but not really. I mean, you talk to a deaf person who will go to a rock and roll show and love it

because you feel it. You know, you feel the whole thing. They do. Yeah. But I don't think computers do. I think computers just feel it. You know, you feel the whole thing. They do. Yeah. But I don't think computers do. I think computers just hear it. Do you know what I mean? It's like it's one, it's only using some of the equipment,

but not all of it. Well, indeed. And it's getting there, trust me. Yeah. It's really getting scary. I know. I also think the internet is a phase that will go the way of CB radio. Yeah, well, let's hope so.

It's never coming back. Although, I mean, it's really handy for so many things. Totally agree. So I kind of love it too. Oh, I love it for some things, yeah. And I love it for, you know, I love a good, you know, dog that can balance a plate on its head and stuff.

I'm obsessed with the animal videos it's actually really worrying I might need to go and see somebody about it. No do you know what that is? Anxiety? Sadness? It's part of the aging process. Oh yeah fair enough. I just love animal videos.

Yeah so do I and I even have animals that I don't like in my house. Yeah. You have dogs, right? You have an Adelaide. I have a really old dog and I'm obsessed by her and I don't know what I'm going to do when she decides... She's already halfway out the door. Yeah. And I want to follow her. It's literally that insane. I understand that. But here's the thing, because do you remember Cabbage, the French bulldog that we had?

Yes, of course. Cabbage sadly shuffled off this moral coil about two years ago. Oh, I'm so sorry. It was bad. Like she lost an eye first. Oh God, yeah. I mean, she was a rescue dog because French bulldogs shouldn't really exist, I don't think. Something very odd has happened there. bulldogs shouldn't really exist I don't think there was a weird kind of... Something very odd has happened there.

And then she had like an extra nipple and a weird ass and she was runty and Milo Maldus boy used to say nine nipples zero fucks. But when she died I thought oh well that's it. Yeah and now we have Seamus. Fabulous. Who's a Jack Russell terrier. They're my favorite breed of dog. Who is a Jack Russell 10 year. They're my favorite breed of dog.

Oh my God. They're fucking crazy. They're full on. Do you know the difference between a Jack Russell and a French Bulldog? French Bulldog people kiss and fall in love. Jack Russell, somebody's getting fucked. I mean, they are fucking crazy. Yeah, they're not crazy.

They're just full on. Yeah, they don't give a fuck and they're wild. I mean, they're hunters. That Yeah, they're not crazy. They're just full on. Yeah, they don't give a fuck and they're wild. I mean, they're hunters. That's what they were bred to do. They'll go down a hole to get something. Yeah, they will. And they'll kill it and bring it back to you. Covered in blood. Yeah.

And lick your face. Now, what kind of dog is your dog? Jack Russell Mix. See, that's what I'm thinking. But she's got a wee bit Chihuahua in her, so she's quite docile. But she was wild when she was young. So were you.

Well, exactly. Are you wild now? Are you still a bit wild? I am not wild, but I do notice that I really, really don't give a fuck. And that is a wildness in itself. That's also part of the aging process. Yeah, of course. I love that.

It's one of the good things about it. Well, I don't know. It's been really great for my career. I wouldn't have had this long a career if I was docile. No, but you were... I'm a beast. But you had to be. You had to be.

I mean, when I first saw you perform, you're a young woman in this particularly aggressive period of music. You know what I mean? It's like all the energy was big and loud and noisy. in this particularly aggressive period of music. You know what I mean? It's like all the energy was big and loud and noisy. We are tough, everybody. We are so tough. Big fucking open E chords and fucking tom-tom drums.

We are very tough. And you were part of that. So of course you are. Of course you become like that. I think it's great that you're still there. I don't know. Sometimes when I come home from dinner parties and things like that, I'm always having the conversation with my husband and it's like,

did I embarrass myself tonight? You know? No, I'll always say, did I embarrass you tonight? And he'll always say, no, you just embarrassed yourself. See, that's pretty good. Yeah, it's really good. But what I know, because I don't know Billy very well, but what I know about Billy is this.

He, yeah, he's slightly embarrassed all the time. No, it's quite the opposite. Is it really? Yeah, which is why I married him. He's quiet. He's so quiet. He's got a calm air about him. I want to be more like Billy, though.

And I have learned to chill a wee bit because of him. He never gives himself away socially. Now I know you well enough to know that you give yourself away like I do over and over and over again. I just run into the room and start crying. So do I. Same thing. And he's just always he just listens to people and I find that astounding because I'm a broadcaster. Yeah I think it's dignity or something. It's dignity and it's powerful and I'm a broadcaster yeah I think it's dignity or something it's dignity and it's powerful and I'm just like I'm like a big messy Labrador

licking everybody's faces you know but at the same time it takes all sorts of course it does and clearly Billy is fond of you yeah he loves me to death

of course he does but he'd be a very very pitiful lead singer he'd be crap yeah it wouldn't be the same you wouldn't want to watch that no No. That would be shite. It would be really shite. I struggle with that sometimes when bands, when I watch a band and the singers are like shy and their hair's in front of their face. I'm like, hey, hey, people at the fucking back have paid too, pal. Come on. Let's fucking see it. and teeth let's go but we grew up with the Bruce Forsyth show

I mean you know what I mean that's our style but I'd love to be a floppy shy singer at the front I mean I'd love to be like that

mysterious and everyone going she's so cool so cool and mysterious people do think you're cool and they don't think you're mysterious

nobody thinks I'm mysterious nobody thinks I'm very cool I think that would be a reach I'm not cool I'm fucking white hot you know thinks I'm very cool. I think that would be a reach. I'm not cool. I'm fucking white hot. You know what I mean? Okay. Okay.

But I think, look, if I had a... No, you, Luke. What? No, you, Luke. Look at this. If I had a daughter, I don't. But if I had a daughter, I'd want her to be like you. I'd want her to be confident and like, fuck you.

Let's get my dad on the phone, shall we? See, Rabba, your dad's an interesting dude. Yes, he is. You know, your dad was the, correct me if I'm wrong. I will. Which you've never fucking been shy about doing that ever before. But your dad was the moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. Is that right?

No, I don't know if that's true. He certainly was a member of that. The group of elders there. Correct. He was an elder that participated in all that nonsense. Which is a... He did a pretty cool thing though, didn't he? Wasn't he involved in the recognition of gay marriage

within that church? Well, he certainly voted for that. Right. Yeah. He's a good man, my dad, and he's a bit punk rock unto himself. Let me just put it this way he just recently

told me he was planning his funeral right I am not involved I'm not allowed to be involved my other two sisters are involved

do you get to go that's what I said to him am I invited to this event yeah and he's also written his own

obituary who does that who does that that's a pretty cool thing it's not cool it's silly as I said to him dad if you've written your own obituary. Who does that? Who does that? That's a pretty cool thing. It's not cool. It's silly. As I said to him, Dad, if you've written your own obituary, that's all good, you know,

but I will survive you and I can write over your obituary. That's true. It's kind of a waste. It's a control. He looked very, very cross when I said that. Yeah, it's a bit of a control. Yeah, and I was roaring with laughter. But he's clearly a very religious man he kind of his faith got shaken during covid oh it was really wild to watch this

is a man i grew up with he was my sunday school teacher and during covid his faith kind of deserted him a little it was wild it's coming back now i notice why would kovid of all things he felt like well it's interesting you should say that because he felt really disillusioned by organized religion he felt like the church just left people to it like left them alone didn't support them didn't find money to bring to the poor literally i mean right i don't know it sent him off into this weird like we were really shaken by it like what's happened to dad is he going to the devil but you did you become religious no god no well where are you in the whole god thing i don't believe in anything really i think

that's very religious is it yes yes i think that's a very religious thing what on earth do you mean by that well here's what i mean by that if you are would you describe yourself as an atheist um maybe i feel like i'm getting tricked no no no i would say yes i would say yeah i would say I'm an atheist. See, I think atheism is the most fundamental religious stance that a human being can take. And what do you mean by that, though? What I mean is this. What you're saying is, I know. Socrates, wrong. Einstein, wrong. St. Francis of Assisi, wrong.

All of you people in human history that believed in God, you're all wrong I'm right That's an atheist position But I don't disagree with Einstein or Socrates They both believed in God Right, I see what you're saying Well, we have a difference of opinion Right, they were wrong

Well, here's my feeling about religion I get what you're saying actually, it's an interesting point And you've sent me spinning and I'm going to be thinking about this all day Good, I'm glad But I can't help but think religion has been designed by men Yep Who cannot accept that they really are not that important I totally agree with that

It's a complete construct. And so it's really hard for me to tune into that and fall in line with it, you know? Yes, I agree with that. And I think you're right. But what I also think is religion is not God. Religion is religion. Yes.

And God... But you asked me if I was religious. I did. And so you've tricked me and you won the day I did but I also asked do you believe in God or if I didn't I meant to do you believe in God

I believe in dogs and they're like gods so I guess I do I mean I believe in nature that to me is the only thing really I can believe in with any certainty and of dogs. Dogs and nature. Dogs are part of nature.

Of course they are. And also, I think that is... To me, that's more to do with God than the idea of angry Santa on a cloud. Do you go to church? I don't, but I built one. What? Well, we moved house in Scotland.

You're getting right weird on me now. Yeah, no, no, I am a little weird. I get it. It's not that I built one. It's that we moved house in Scotland. We moved to a place that had a bit more land because we wanted to keep some horses, right? And the place that we bought

had an old broken down chapel type building on it and during covid i had nothing to fucking do so i kind of looked at youtube videos of carpentry and painting and stuff and i thought that little chapel thing i'm going to put it back and i and i so and i'm not a religious person at all i'm not in part of any organised religion at all but I thought well what harm could it do put the little building back then I found a little bell

so I put the bell in the church tower me and a local joiner we got up there and put the bell in and it's a beautiful little church and the guy who works on the place where he works on the estate he's a he's very Scottish and he said what church is that because he he said he's from a slightly different like I

was raised in the Protestant like you yeah and he was raised as Catholic which in Scotland is you know it's a big or was a big deal I hope it's not so much still is for some people but he said to me so uh what is it then I said what do you mean what is it he said well is it Church of Scotland or the proper one and I said it's a non-denominational Church of Scotland and he said that's not a church I said it fucking is now it's right there that's brilliant I like that so it's just a it's a but I got some pews I bought some pews and I put them in and like there's no imagery from anybody's religion but there's some places to sit and some books and good stuff place to be yeah I like that the first

book I put in it was Young's Red Book how, so, which is all different religious imagery and stuff like that. Do you, when you travel, do you go to local churches because I do all the time? I don't actually. I should do that.

I used to kind of do that a little bit in Europe. I haven't done it in America so much. Well, yeah, they're not quite as grand as they are in Europe. Yeah, well,

unfortunately. Yeah, when you do that. So, like, when you go to South, so you're seeing a lot of Catholic churches then for a Protestant you're seeing a lot of catholic churches then for a protestant yeah because a lot of catholic cathedrals and i love it i have to say like i don't know why i'm drawn to it so there must be some weird like pool from for me with

religion of course of course because the impulse look capitalism in and of itself is not evil but people can use it for evil religion in and of itself i don't believe is evil but of course it's used although it was constructed to control the people the poor that's that's where religion basically began was a way of control i said at least in i don't know if i relatively modern history i think i think in modern times, I think that's true. But I think the impulse to try and figure it out or to recognize the larger thing, I don't know about that. I don't think so.

I think when the Roman Empire co-opted Christianity, I think that was a power move for sure. That was 100%. And certainly a lot of different religions have done that. But I'm not so sure about it anymore. I used to be a lot surer about it and I'm not. Like, because I built my wee church and I thought, well, who am I oppressing here? I'm like, well, nobody.

I just hired a local joiner to help me put the bell up. Who am I impressing? Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the would be,

how big the life I was given and live is. I think he was like, oh yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down and out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Miss Spelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain.

I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts I'm Angie Martinez check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes musicians actors in the world we go beyond the headlines and the sound bites to have real conversations about real life death love and everything in between this This life right here, just finding myself, just this relaxation,

this not feeling stressed, this not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of. I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly. Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder.

So if you have a story to tell, if you've come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone. You're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeart

Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, A Really Good Cry. We're going to talk about and go through all the things that are sometimes difficult to process alone. We're going to go over how to regulate your emotions, diving deep into holistic personal development, and just building your mindset to have a happier, healthier life. We're going to be talking with some of my best friends. I didn't know we were going to go there on this. People that I admire. When we say listen to your body, really tune in to what's going on.

Authors of books that have changed my life. Now you're talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy, right? And basically have conversations that can help us get through this crazy thing we my life. Now you're talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy, right? And basically have conversations that can help us get through this crazy thing we call life. I already believe in myself. I already see myself. And so when people give me an opportunity,

I'm just like, oh great, you see me too. We'll laugh together, we'll cry together and find a way through all of our emotions. Never forget, it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one. Listen to A Really good cry with radhi on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts i don't want to oppress anybody i don't want even people i don't agree with what then what

is your relationship to like why are you a you a comedian? Because that is some strange... You know, honest truth, I don't, I fell into it. I think that... Yeah, but you've been doing it long enough. I have been doing it for a long time. I think that I just, it was very forgiving of a lifestyle that I had when I started. That, you know, you could be fucking hammered and late and still kind of get by. Certainly in the early days, you can't.

But you've just finished a tour here in North America. I like doing it. No, I love doing it. Why do you like doing it? It's my instrument. It's my band. It's my Keith Richards. It's like I play the guitar, I go there and I play it.

It's what I do. What is it doing? It's fulfilling an emotional and financial need, I think. Well, aside from the finances, I mean, you have to make a living. Right. As you've gotten older, surely you must have a different idea of why you do what you do than you did when you were younger, no? you do what you do than you did when you were younger no i do i feel alive when i do it do you remember uh the movie chariots of fire of course there's great beautiful edinburgh feeling in that

movie and when ian charleston who plays i can't remember the athlete. Ian. Oh, God damn it. The runner. Yeah, the runner. The beautiful Scottish runner who wouldn't run on a Sunday. Ian Little? Yes, I think it was something like that. He wouldn't run on a Sunday. That was the story that he was a Scottish athlete,

the Olympics in the 1920s. He wouldn't run on a Sunday because of his faith. And somebody asked him about it. His sister, is what it was, says in the movie, it's a great line in the movie, because he wanted to be a missionary in China. And in fact, he did become a missionary in China and died there.

But he says this line about running and about China. His sister says, you should be a missionary. And he said, I know. He said, I believe God made me for a purpose. And that purpose is China. He said, but when I I run I feel his pleasure oh how beautiful it's great and I feel like I feel a little bit like I'm connected to something when I do stand up but you must enjoy you feel that when you're performing I do but yeah of course like as I've gotten older, I'm like, oh, I'm actually in service.

I'm basically, you know, I'm here to make people feel better than when they walked in tonight. Yeah, yeah. And then when it's gotten clearer and clearer for me that, oh, that's my service. And this is such a great thing to do. It's a purpose for me. Right. And I just imagine that if you literally are going on stage to make people laugh it's the same thing that connection with people's it is it's a sense

of purpose which is like which is like organized religion in a way it's it is i'm not i'm not conflating by the way what we do with practicing you know organized faith i'm not deigning to do that i i just mean... It has parallels. I think it's a good... I think it's an interesting way to look at it because there are parallels. There are little rituals. You know, there are little things that make people feel comfortable. You go to the

merch table. You get a warm beer and a plastic glass. There's your communion. You go into the room. It smells of weed and sweat. And bum. Yeah yeah and bum yeah you hear that of the amps before the music starts going through them there there are rituals there's the the whole thing of we were talking about this earlier actually that the idea of the encore for rock acts is like will they do an extra song i think they will i think we know they'll do it

annoying i keep saying to my band let's not do an encore tonight, please. Can we just do the set? Right. And they're like, no, no, no, we have to do the encore. And I can't stand an encore. Unless it's really warranted. I mean, there's occasionally, and I can count the warranted times, maybe five times in my whole career, where we really warranted an encore. Yeah, I know. It's so dumb.

But, you know, when I was going to see bands when I was a kid, and I assume you were doing the same, when the band did an encore, it was like when they came on and said, good evening, Glasgow or Edinburgh. This is our favorite town to play in. And you'd be like, is there a favorite town to play in? Yeah, that's true.

Really true. You feel like it feels special. It's part of being live with the band it's not tv it's not a record no it's very special yeah life but it's when i was younger i guess i thought it was all about me and i what i'm trying to get at is just that idea as i've gotten older and older it's so not about me anymore. It's like you're making, if your challenge, Shirley Ann Manson, is to make people feel good tonight and let's see if you can do it.

And it feels like a challenge to me. And when I step out into a hostile audience, I'm like in my brain, I'll win you over. I'm going to make you feel good. I fucking love that as well. And it's such a great feeling. I know, I fucking know that.

It's the weirdest thing. And I think only... Twisted Scottish people would think like this. It's such a great feeling. I know. I fucking know that. It's the weirdest thing. It's weird. Twisted Scottish people would think like this. I think people who are true performers respond to that. I noticed that with, in my business it's comedians, but I've seen it with rock stars too, or rock musicians even, or any musician. That you go out in front of an audience and you fail badly and then you go and do it again and you go and do it again and I think I do I like this I don't

like it I but I like it a little bit yeah there's something in it I fucking like it's really failure There's something in it I fucking like. Yeah, it's really sick. The failure. It's weird. It is weird. You know, it's like, that's now when I look at young performers and they go on YouTube and they don't fail

because they make their little bit and they put it out and it's good. They're not standing in front of, you know, 300 drunk Laswegians who are, it's not even a comedy club. It's like, all right, that's a disco stomp for a minute and now here's some asshole who thinks he's funny. And then you, like, they're not cheering when you walk on.

I think what you do is really scary. It's really, really scary. So I would imagine the adrenaline rush must be so intense. Do you know what's funny now? Now I wonder, do you get an adrenaline rush when you're on stage? Not really, not anymore. No, I see, I don't either. Yeah you're on stage not really not anymore no I see I don't either I go to it different

I get calm yeah it's a different thing it's like I remember once years and years and years and years ago

I read an interview with Michael Jackson and it was about how weird he was there was an article about how weird he was

and there was one or two of those and certainly he had some things going on but in the interview he said he felt so

comfortable performing that he could sleep on stage and I remember at the time thinking that is the strangest fucking thing I have ever heard what a twisted crazy mind and now when I get on stage now I'm ready for a snooze all not quite but i relax yeah it's like now i can it's like getting into the bath or something maybe i'm like being good at something yeah because when you're young you don't know that you can do something really until you've done 10 000 hours of it and then you're like i can do this just what tony hawk was saying the other day when he was here yeah he was talking about the 10 000 hours i love t love Tony Hawk oh he's fantastic yeah he's fantastic he really is fantastic he's a very very interesting dude

and that same there's another guy in order to do what he did you gotta fail over and over and over again you have to fail fail fail fail fail what I think is

is a little bit of a I worry for the younger generation is they don't get to fail and you got to because at some point you're gonna fail but they don't get to fail. And you've got to, because at some point you're going to fail. But you don't get to fail in private. You don't get to fail in the dark little comedy club. You don't get to fail without someone filming it.

You know what I mean? Your humiliation is on line for everyone to see. It's there. Your failure is permanent. But they also have this strange attitude, I've noticed, and I've seen it with some of the young ones in my life is like they think they should be the ceo of any company that they you know they they get a job as a tea and coffee runner and they're literally like well when am i going to get a promotion after like two weeks it's like yeah no you you really have to just stick in there kid oh you're going to be there for a while it's like you're going to be

fighting markman's manager in the Columbia Hotel yeah but they've got this weird twisted idea of what of doing well is and

they all think they should be famous and I know have tons of followers and be influential it's really strange

it's not good and it's been around for a while I remember seeing a trailer for Justin Bieber the Justin Bieber movie when he

was about 18 and there was this trailer I didn't watch the movie I watched it I saw it I'm not in the demographic Justin Bieber the Justin Bieber movie when he was about 18 and there was this I didn't watch the movie I watched it I saw it I'm not in the demographic but

I'm not either but it's actually really I know I heard it was a good movie but I was watching the trailer and in the trailer which is of course not in the movie this voiceover says

they said he'd never make it and I'm like well how long did they say that because he's fucking 16 like who said it like his teacher said it I mean who said it

that's fucking ridiculous that everything has to be an epic and everything has to be you know Madison Square Garden by the time you're 18 and like you know that you don't understand

it should be Keith Richards Madison Square Garden or the fucking Dog and Duck and Eel Pie Island. Doesn't matter. You've got the guitar in your hand. I noticed a weird thing, though, at the Oscars this year where Lady Gaga performed.

Uh-huh. And I actually thought it was really clever of her. I'm a fan of her, yeah. I think she's great. Yeah, me too. But she took off all her makeup and was just in sort of like how we dress, you know, like how we dressed when we were young, like just jeans and a t-shirt. Right.

No makeup, you know. But then she tells this wee story before she starts singing, which is, you know, I wrote this song in my basement and blah, blah, blah. And I'm thinking to myself, wait, hold on a minute. We all know Lady Gaga is fucking loaded, right? And she lives in a mansion. Right. And she wrote that song in this timeline that we're all aware of like we all know that you became famous 10 years ago at this point and so the basement that you're writing your song in is in the basement of a huge mansion

right but the story isn't beautiful right so our stories all of us came from a generation where people we really did make records and write in disgusting like mid-street basements yeah and it's cool right but this new generation they don't have that poetry because everything goes so fast they're famous within a nanosecond really and then if they're smart and they've got good material they'll stay on top till they get bored of it in a way i just thought this was really interesting like construct again of like authenticity and you know punk rock ethos which they clearly admire but they've had no they've not had any contact with it i wonder if am i making any sense yeah totally i i make a total i i'm i'm just kind of yes and and you i wonder if that the ones that really

are involved in the poetry you and i don't know about them yeah they're hiding from us well we know that for a fact yeah they're they're in basements in akron ohio or detroit michigan or fucking you know new york or new jersey or glasgow or Glasgow or Edinburgh and we don't know about I'm not saying they don't exist I'm just saying how interesting it was to have this huge star pretend that they were smaller than they were it was just I can't explain I really can't articulate this because it's just come to me as we were speaking no no I thought it was fascinating I think you I think you are articulating it very well. And I think it is fascinating. I think what it is, is that at a certain point,

I got to this in my own life. And I wonder if it happened to you. When garbage was at the absolute fucking, the supersonic part of your career. And we all know, any of us who have survived more than six months in this business know that that comes and it goes, and it comes and it goes,

and it's quite a fucking ride. And that's part of the fun. Yeah. But there was a point in my life where I went, I was walking across, I'll tell you what it was actually, I was walking across the tarmac to an airplane that I owned.

And I thought, you know what? I don't think this is right. For me? I don't think this is right. I don't think this is as cool as I thought it was going to be. I think that, I think 16 year old me would be impressed, but I'm fucking 52 and this is not cool see this is why I love you because you're the only person I've ever heard say that kind of stuff to me because I feel a wee bit like

that and in fact I was just talking about this yesterday when we were at the peak of our height of success I was embarrassed because I thought yeah my teenage self would think I was a fucking arse piece yeah it's cheesy like I felt like all these the whole sort of hysteria that surrounded success like all of a sudden tabloid photographers you know were taking my photographs at airports and I was like breaking up with my husband and there was somebody taking our photographs really distressing and vile yeah and and I was just like this is so uncool and so awful and dehumanizing and i just don't admire it i wish i did admire it more but i don't like i don't sit and look at a lot of these celebrities and go wow you're so cool oh no none of them

almost none of them there's a few that managed to to carry it off sure but for the most part it's like what's going on here no I totally get it I think that there was once I got a phone call from Steve Jones the guitarist of the Pistols

right so Jonesy calls me I've known Jonesy for years and the Pistols were getting back together to do this they were doing this

show on at the Roxy I think it was this is a few years ago, like maybe 15 years ago or something, 10 or 15 years ago. I remember this actually. Minus Sid, obviously. Right, minus Sid. But Matlock was doing it. So they were getting back together and Jonesy called me up and said, would you come and introduce us? And now, 16 year old me,

that's like getting a call from God. Yeah, that's incredible. But I couldn't do it because I was doing a corporate gig for T-Mobile in Las Vegas. Oh, God. And I remember when I was going out

to talk to the night of the show, I'm doing the corporate gig for T-Mobile in Las Vegas. And I'm walking out and there's all these guys and I can smell the fucking shitty lobster in the room. And it's fucking horrendous. And I felt awful about it. And I was like, geez, what the fuck happened to me, man? And I spoke to Jonesy about it a couple of weeks later.

And he went, oh, it's just what we was doing. We were doing it for the fucking money oh yeah I suppose so and he let me off the hook. It's a good story you still got the good story out. Yeah I got a story out. But that highlights it right? Yeah a little bit. That to me completely explains the discomfort of realising like this

is just not who I want to be. But none of that shit matters what matters is, is the feeling you get when you hear the fucking amps go and you fucking walk out and the audience is there and you know what you can do

and I've seen you fucking do it. And you walk out and you fucking get a mic in your hand and here we go. Here we go. And here we fucking go. And that's the ride. And everything else is fucking gravy. It's sugar spr go. And here we fucking go. And that's the ride. And everything else is fucking gravy.

It's sugar sprinkles. It's fucking nothing. The thing I love the most is being in my dressing room and you can hear the crowd. Yeah. That's my favorite moment. Really? Yeah. It doesn't get better than that.

For me, that's it. It's like the anticipation and that excitement. You hear them all speaking and laughing and shouting. I don't know. I just love that feeling. I totally understand that. I have a memory of doing a gig in LA, which I love you for. And I will always love you for.

Because I was going out, I was playing the Ace Hotel. I remember it well. I remember it because I was in the... You have a laugh that's distinctive. I knew you were going to mention that laugh. No, no, it's not even about the laugh. It's not even about the laugh. It's before it.

What I did was, I remember the intro music I had at the Ace Theatre was the cramps playing Let's Get Fucked Up. And it starts off with the drums going, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, poof, po like that just fucking rolls out like that and i heard you going yeah in the fucking audience i heard your voice that went you're fucking right man you're fucking right here we go here we go and it is that it's that there's like everything falls away in those moments of performance i think everything falls away and the planes and the money and the fucking and the paparazzi photographers and the resentments and the fear and the everything fucking disappears and that's that's why I do it and I think that's why you do it yeah I think so although I've never had a personal plane I would quite like one I must admit yeah you'd be surprised I would quite

like you'd be surprised you'd be surprised i totally understand what you're saying and i love you for that i think i can i can imagine that being talking to you yeah i understand it must be weird so weird but i mean you've had such a insane career and you've seen things that so few people have you know and like you talk about these massive you know like you say you're on late night tv that's huge it doesn't really get much bigger than that in America. Yeah, but it's weird. I remember talking to somebody. I was talking to somebody about this the other day because they were talking about how I left.

And I said, yeah, because I didn't, you know, it wasn't a thing to me. And if you look at the people who have left, like after shortish periods of time, I left, James Corden left, Trevor Noah left. We're not from here. John Oliver left. We're not from here. So we didn't grow up with that Johnny Carson is what you have to be. It's like, it's a gig. And a tough gig.

Yeah, it's a long gig. It's a concept album. But it's Rick Wakeman journey to the center of the earth. It's the full cape and orchestra. But you're being self-depreciating, but to be fair, that is a tough gig. You know, is it though? Well, I'm not saying it's tough

like you're cleaning floors for a living. That's a tough job. Or, you know, you're a nurse. That's a tough job. But that's not to say that what you do in these positions is not, I don't know, it's exhausting, I would imagine. It is exhausting.

It's emotionally exhausting. And that is true. And being an intellectual, you have to be intellectually awake, you know, every night. Yeah, you do. That's a lot. It is, it's a lot.

But I didn't do it for, I did it for 10 years, that's enough. That's a long time. It's long enough for me. Yeah. Do you, I i mean surely when you be my podcast surely i'm meant to ask you i know but i haven't seen you in so long all right i'm dying to ask questions all right when you decided to leave and you know because i can

remember thinking wow he's gonna go back to scotland that's intense because it's like coming off a of an escalator yeah yeah so for a while you're moving at the same speed as you've always been moving. I'm not saying it wasn't without its challenges. So what was like, what happened? Like I'm assuming you were just moving, moving, you got that incredible house which I don't think I'll ever forget because it was so beautiful. And you had this amazing life and you had chickens and a really domesticated beautiful life. I still have of course i know you do but at some point there must have been the jolt when you get off the escalator of like whoa what the hell like where do i put all my energy my talents my do you know what i mean like you know what i'm saying i do that's

why i built a fucking church you know i mean it's it's like you you have to put it somewhere but also i don't know if you've experienced this there was a point where i became discouraged of course and just with everything yeah i was burnt out and it was after late night and i'm i was just discouraged i didn't know why i made some tv shows i probably shouldn't have made. I wrote a book, which I'm proud of. But there was, yeah, it was a change of pace. It was difficult. Did you never experience that? I absolutely experienced that, yeah.

When did you experience that? Just around about our fourth record, and we couldn't put a foot right. And that happens to musicians all the time. Of course, it happens to everybody. But when it happens to you, you're just like, I literally thought this is the end of the world. And I am 40 years old.

I was 40. And I will never get back up on that pony because they don't let women back on the pony. And then enough years passed. My mum died. Yeah. And we had been on hiatus for about five years, which is a long time.

I was on a TV show. I played a Terminator. There was the Terminator show, of course. And that kind of kept me busy for a while and brought in the excitement that I was used to as a musician but then that came to an end and my mum died and then I was like all right what what now and I just went to Coachella one year and I was looking at the everything and thinking what they're fussing about this band yeah and I'm sitting here rotting on my couch no longer will this be the case and I just called the band up

and I was basically sort of like come on let's let's work just for the sake of working doesn't matter if it's not top 10 doesn't matter you know if we don't sell a million records who cares as long as we enjoy doing the pursuit of what it was that we fell in love with and that's when you become Keith Richards well that's when you're yeah Richards. Well, that's when you're, yeah, you're freed in a way that you've never been before. You're free because they don't fucking own you anymore. And that's what I think. The truth is, look, I'm 60 fucking years old.

I know, but you look good now. Thank you. You do. But here's the thing. I'm 60 fucking years old. It's not, whatever fucking way you cut it, it's not the first day. And this is, i've said this to

audiences and i mean it like i'll go out and say to an audience look i've done a lot of shows and i've fucking won awards and i made a lot of money and i'll be very successful so if this show sucks tonight it's fucking you it's not me oh i like that yeah and and it and it's true that's brilliant you know the evidence is good at what I do, you motherfuckers. If you want to have a good time, fucking relax. Daddy's got it. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's, I can do this.

I love that. I love that. It's so cool. And I mean it. Don't you feel that when you walk out now? Of course I do, but I've never vocalized it as well as you just have. Sing it. Mummy's got it.

It's so good. It's a really nice feeling. And I guess that's why when i do do shows now and i walk out and people you can see and you see them immediately right you can look into a massive audience and go well there's the cunt that hates me and he's only here because his girlfriend wants to be and blah blah blah yeah and for some reason you can really focus on singular people i don't think audiences understand that oh yeah you see them They don't think you're looking at them and you see all kinds of things going on.

People picking their nose, you know, looking at their phones, you know, whatever. Oh, he's off to the bar to get a drink. I mean, you catch it all. It's really wild. But now it used to bother me when people wouldn't pay attention

and not appreciate what we were doing. And now it's just, like I said earlier, it's just sort of like, everything's good. We've got this. It's all right. Yeah.

You are a joy. You are a joy, Craig Ferguson. It's so great to see you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for letting me be on your podcast. You're welcome, no problem. Come and see me again next time. Yeah, I will too. I'll see you next time. and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage. I just filed for divorce.

Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez, and on my podcast, I like to talk to everyone from hall of fame athletes to iconic musicians about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. I had the best dad and I had the best memories and the greatest experience. And that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. For 10 years, I've been obsessed with one of the most bizarre and audacious cons in rock and roll history. We were all facing 20 years and all that good stuff. The lead singer tried to pull off an English accent and they went on the road as the zombies. These guys are not going to get away with it. The zombies are too popular.

Listen to the true story of the fake zombies on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.