Joy, a Podcast. Hosted by Craig Ferguson - Tom Straw

Episode Date: May 14, 2024

Meet Craig’s friend Tom Straw. Straw published his first mystery novel, The Trigger Episode, in 2007. Subsequently, writing as Richard Castle, he authored seven more crime novels, all of which became New York Times Bestsellers. Buzz Killer is Tom Straw’s first book under his own name since that blockbuster Nikki Heat series. He is also an Emmy- and Writer’s Guild of America-nominated TV writer and producer having written and produced Night Court, Parker Lewis Can’t Lose, Dave’s World, Grace Under Fire, Cosby, Whoopi, and Nurse Jackie. A former National Board member of Mystery Writers of America, he lives in Connecticut, where his home is his castle. He also has a connection with Craig’s old Late Late show, you can learn more about it in the episode. Check out Tom's new book: THE ACCIDENTAL JOE The Top Secret Life of a Celebrity Chef which is little bit like “What if Anthony Bourdain were using his travel show as cover to spy for the CIA?” Go buy it here. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

For 10 years, I've been obsessed with one of the most bizarre and audacious cons in rock and roll history. We were all facing 20 years and all that good stuff. The lead singer tried to pull off an English accent, and they went on the road as the zombies. These guys are not going to get away with it. The zombies are too popular. Listen to the true story of the fake zombies on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Want to know how to leverage culture to build a successful business? Then Butternomics is the podcast for you.

I'm your host, Brandon Butler, founder and CEO of Butter ATL. And on Butternomics, we go deep with today's most influential entrepreneurs, innovators, and business leaders to peel back the layers on how they use culture as a driving force in their business. Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level. Listen to Butternomics on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling, as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage. I just filed for divorce. Whoa.

I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Craig Ferguson Fancy Rascal Stand-Up Tour continues throughout 2024. For a full list of dates and tickets,

go to thecraigfergusonshow.com slash tour. See you out there, thecraigfergusonshow.com My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness. Welcome to my conversation with Tom Straw. Now, I'll be honest with you. It's not my first conversation with Tom. He was a writer on my old late night show,

and I've known him for many years. He's a very clever, intelligent, and funny man, as you're about to find out. Ed Begley was on the Ed Begley Jr. Because I've never met Ed Begley Sr. But Ed Begley Jr. was on the podcast and he told me he has Parkinson's. You've worked with Ed, right?

I worked with Ed. I had the great pleasure of working with Ed on a pilot. Is he the nicest guy in show business? He is terribly nice. Him or Henry Winkler? It's either Ed Begley Jr. or Henry Winkler. We did some stuff with Henry Winkler on the Late Night Show. But Ed was in a pilot that I did at Castle Rock when I was there back in the late 80s, early 90s.

I remember Castle Rock. Yeah. That was the Rob Reiner's company. Yeah. They made a little show called Seinfeld you may have heard of. Nah. Nah. I didn't get it.

Is that still on, Seinfeld? Relentlessly. Yeah. You, of course it is. You don't have any of that sweet Seinfeld money, do you? No. No. I have a story of somebody who lost a lot of it.

Tell me. Can you tell me? I can't mention names. All right. I'll put the names in. Okay. Later. There was a guy I knew very well.

Jerry Seinfeld. And he had points. You know how points work. Right. Points are a percentage of the game. The moolah, the profits. Right. Ka-ching.

Right. He had 15 points in Seinfeld. He's a writer or a producer, you've got to be at 15 points, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, no names. Okay. I'll try to avoid too much context, but he had 15% of the bank vault, right? That's huge.

As you may know, Seinfeld was on the bubble when it started. It almost didn't make it. Yeah, that's right, yeah. And he ran into some financial needs, family needs. And so he went back into the boss at Castle Rock and he said, I'd like to sell my points back. And the boss, who's still a friend of mine, great guy, he said, never give your points back.

And he said, I really need to get a new house because my family's expanding and all that. So he sold it for $150,000. Man. Because that'd be worth like $100 million. Easy. Yeah. I mean, that's the big FU money.

Yeah. The thing about FU money, though, that I've noticed, because I got a little bit of it myself, it can F you. Yes, that's right. It really can F you. People don't know that about FU money. It's like when people win the lottery,

and then suddenly within five years, their lives are trashed, and they letting it out double-wide or something. It's the worst good news you can get. Isn't it weird? I mean, because you think money is going to solve all your problems. It doesn't bring joy. It does not bring joy. No.

You tied the end of the podcast, Tom. Well, I'm going to do that because I, you know, yes. And I'm a big fan of this podcast. I noticed you're sponsored by Bacon. Bacon? Bacon. The sponsored by Bacon. Bacon? Bacon. The ads are great. Really?

Bacon. The Bacon sponsors this podcast? Just Bacon. I love Bacon. And I said, I've got to see Craig today. Yeah. And so here I am because you're sponsored by Bacon. Not Francis Bacon?

No. No. Just Bacon? No. Not even Kevin Bacon. There's not even six degrees of separation. It's just Bacon. Just Bacon Kevin Bacon. There's not even six degrees of separation. It's just bacon. Just bacon.

And it's all over you. I mean, every break, the dunk, dunk, dunk, dunk, dunk comes, and then there's some guy talking about bacon. Wow. And how good it is. You know I don't eat bacon. I didn't know that. But I don't eat that.

Oh, really? No, I don't eat that. Can I finish yours then? Yeah, you can have my bacon. The giant plate of bacon that's in front of us. So provided by our sponsor, bacon. He doesn't eat it, but he's wearing a bacon suit today. I do wear bacon.

I do wear a lot of bacon. That is true. Now, listen, you and I worked together. I first became aware of you when somebody said, Tom Straw will come and work on your show. And I'm like, Tom Straw, the writer of sitcoms will come and work on the show? Now, you came and worked on the Late Night

Show because you wanted to do it, right? I did. You were the only guy. I didn't even want to do it. I just did it because I needed a job that kept me in town. You were the only guy that wanted to be on the old Late Night Show. I was a huge fan of the show when you took it over. And it was like

it was a late night staple for my wife and I. We would stay up. That's so cool. And the phrase that she would always use is, you know, that Craig Ferguson's really coming into his own. And so that kind of became our code. Sooner or later, that may be true. But I was such a huge fan of the show. And you know,

I, part of joy for me is doing things I've never done before. It's to do the scary thing. And to never having worked on that kind of format. I know because I knew of you because I had worked in sitcom in the 90s. I had worked on the Drew Carey show and you were doing Grace Under Fire, right? Yes, I was. The aptly named Grace Under Fire show. Yes.

Which was with... Brett Butler. Brett Butler. Yeah. But, yeah, I worked in sitcom for years. I mean, I did Night Court. Right, right. You didn't do the reboot.

Did you do the reboot? No, I did not. I did have a conversation prior to it with our mutual friend, John Larroquette. Oh, yeah. I love Larroquette. I haven't seen him in years. Where the hell is he? He's living in southern Washington

State, right across the river from Portland, Oregon. Okay. Is he smoking a lot? No, he's not. No, that's the best thing. He's totally clean. Here's an insight into John. I hope you wouldn't mind me telling this story, but he went to a photo expo one day. He showed up at the table reading.

Yeah. And he's got like eight cameras. And I said, eight cameras? He says, you don't understand. When I was drinking, I wanted all the drinks. He did, yeah. Now I want all the cameras. Yeah, he wanted, I was the same when I was drinking. I wanted all the drink, all the drugs.

He's a dear man, though. Isn't he the greatest? And whip smart. He's a huge bibliophile. He also likes books. Yeah, well, that's good. Yeah. But that would be like a thing for us.

Like we would sometimes meet for lunch at like Musso and Frank, and then he would take me to these antiquarian bookstores and introduce me to Bukowski, who was dead, but his books were dead. But was moldering in the corner or was unsure that he was dead. Yeah, he still had the glass. Bukowski wanted all the drinks as well, apparently. Oh, yes. Did you ever meet Bukowski?

No, no, I didn't. No, I... I'd be afraid to now. Well, he'd be a zombie now. Yeah, I know. I'd be afraid to meet... Do you ever worry about zombies? I don't that much,

but I feel like I should bring it up now that we're on the subject. There are times that I see people and I think, undead. Classified undead. Oh, man. I've been... I think I've been aead. Oh man. Um, I've been, I think I've been a zombie at certain point in my life.

So, so you were working in sitcoms and how did you get into sitcoms? So, cause you worked in radio, right? I worked in radio and, I worked in radio while I was still in high school. I had,

uh, where'd you go to high school? I went to Birmingham high school in Van Nuys, California, right? Public school. I didn't know you were California. For some reason,

I always thought you were an East Coaster. I am, you know, I'm a hybrid. Bike, you're... But I had a mentor, Gary Owens. Do you remember Gary Owens

from Laugh-In? I do. He was my radio hero. Stop it. Really? I called him up one day. I just put on my big boy pants and I called him one

day at the radio station and I said, Mr. Owens. Wow. You were that young? Yeah. You had a little hat with a helicopter thing on it. Better put a seatbelt on that boy. But I called him up and I said, I want to be in radio. And I have my vocation teacher said I should talk to somebody in radio. And he said, well, Tom, come on down to the radio station on Thursday and you can watch me do my show. I mean, what a great guy, right? Right. Yeah.

And so he mentored me into radio. I got a job. I started a radio station at my high school, which was just speakers who wasn't on the air. Right. But I made a tape of one of those and I took it to a coffee pot radio station in Van Nuys and they hired me. What's a coffee pot radio station?

Tiny little place. Right. With, they have a coffee pot. Yeah. It's basically like. Right. So it snakes on a plate. It's a Tiny little place. Right, where they have a coffee pot. Yeah, it's basically like... Right, so it snakes on a plate. Yeah, it's a small little joint. But it was right on the

dial next to Shadow Stevens on KMET. Ah, Shadow's been on the podcast. And so the kids thought I was on KMET because they weren't really paying attention to the dial. Because he was a big radio star. Yeah. But anyway, through my radio career, I had a buddy, Ken Levine, and Ken... I've had a lot of people do good things for me.

But Ken mentored me into becoming a screenwriter because he and I got fired a week before Christmas at a radio station in San Diego. Yeah. And he said, screw it. I don't care if I have to sell ties at the May Company. I am going to be a TV writer. Right. And he had a partner who he was writing with. And they produced a show called MASH. Right. That was a fairly writer. Right. And he had a partner who he was writing with. And they produced a show called MASH. Right.

That's a fairly, that was a fairly successful television show. Yeah. And he has an Emmy for Cheers. Also did pretty well. Yeah.

And he worked on Frasier and, you know, he's no slouch. Yeah, that's legit. But anyway, he helped me learn how to write a script and got me

my first two jobs. So what was your first job in sitcom then? It was on Aftermash. Oh, wow. That one, yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like I like to say, you know how Purina has dog chow, but then they have monkey chow and horse chow.

Do you know how you get Pringles? Yeah. Right. So Pringles and their little kind of phrases, once you pop, you can't stop. Yes. Well, they have knockoff Pringles called Prongles, right? Prongles. Prongles, their motto is, once you pop, that's great.

That's the B team, right? Yeah, I love that kind of thing. All right, so you're working on Aftermash. Aftermash, and then I wrote a freelance script for Benson, if you remember that show. I do remember Benson. Yeah, that was a spinoff of Soap, right? Right.

Yeah, yeah. And they offered me a staff job on the show based on the script I turned in. What was the name of the actor? Robert... Guillaume. Robert Guillaume, yeah, fabulous actor. Very funny man.

I called Ken to say, hey, congratulate me, I got an offer, and he says, don't take it. And I said, why not? to say, hey, congratulate me. I got an offer. And he says, don't take it. And I said, why not? He says, because David, that's his writing partner, David Isaacs, we just sold a pilot starring Mary Tyler Moore to CBS. And we'd like you to be on our show. But this is kind of a maudlin story, but I think you'll enjoy it.

They said, but we can't commit to hiring you until we clear certain hurdles with paperwork at the studio. So can you hang on? Can you buy some time and not really do anything with Benson for a week? And I said, I don't know how I'm going to do that. And I called my agent. It was pre-Nancy Josephson. Nancy Josephson, we should, full disclosure, is your agent and my agent.

That's exactly right. And has been for about, I think, 500 years in my case. I don't know how long for you. 28. 28. She's the best agent in Hollywood. You know, I love that woman. She's the greatest agent in Hollywood.

Yeah. She's just hands down the best one there is. I could go on and on. Yeah. But I won't. Okay. Because I'm going to get back to this story about having to stall. That's what makes you a professional.

So I called my then agent. Right. And said, hey, here's the deal. I laid out the thing. I said, I need to somehow stall Benson so they don't get mad and both shows go away for me. And he said, I'll do what I can. The business affairs person who handled Benson, he was called the Iron Major. He was a very tough-ass agent out there. All right. My agent calls me back two hours later, and he said,

the Iron Major dropped dead at lunch today. What? He says, how's that for a stall? Wow, he really died? He died. So I called my agent asking for a stall, and then two hours later, the person who held the button died. Remind me to give you whatever you want.

But that was, wasn't that astonishing? That's crazy. But then did you, did you end up on Benson? No, I ended up going with Ken and David on Demary Tart. It was called Mary on CBS. Right. And it was the first sitcom for Katie Segal. Right.

It had the. Also a great woman, by the way. Oh, she's terrific. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing. John Astin. It had the... Also a great woman, by the way. Oh, she's terrific. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing. John Astin. Gomez and the Addams Family. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was just thinking, it was John Astin, Sean Astin, Sean Astin, John Astin, Sean Astin. Yeah, yeah, it's his dad. Yeah, and I don't know. Anyway, I won't go through the whole cast.

Right. But it was a great thing and it was a wonderful experience. The show only went 13 weeks. That's not unheard of. No. wonderful experience the show only went 13 weeks that's no unheard of no my first sitcom in america went 13 weeks but i quit after 10 i think or maybe no i quit after 13 but they get picked up for another nine but i was just with betty white yeah yeah yeah it was it was i i loved doing i loved working with betty and Betty and I, as you know, stayed friends for the rest of her life.

Yeah, I know. But making the show, it was my first sitcom in America, and I was like eighth banana, and I did not enjoy it. And you had a movie you were making, too. You didn't make Saving Grace, wasn't that? No, that was later. That's when I was doing the Drew Carey show. That's when I was more comfortable being eighth banana

because I had figured out how to film my day. Because I think what people, if you don't work in as an actor, and most people don't, most actors don't work as an actor. If you don't work as an actor, you don't realize how much just sitting on your ass doing nothing there is all day long.

I can't do that. I can't do it. So I started writing, when I got the job on the Drew Carey show I had written my own stand up for years and I thought well and I was reading screenplays

as you do you know as people used to write screenplays I read them so I can steal from them well I I was

that was my plan but as I read them I went these are garbage and these were movies that were getting made garbage and I thought I can't I don't know if I can write any better than this but there's no way in hell As I read them, I went, these are garbage. And these were movies that were getting made. Garbage. And I thought, I don't know if I can write any better than this,

but there's no way in hell I can write anything worse than this. And these things are getting made. So that's when I started writing. And lo and behold, they did get made. Well, I think there's also a certain thing here about being underutilized. I mean, when you have higher aspirations and also the chops to deliver those aspirations, you see yourself sitting in a trailer waiting and waiting, and you come out and you do lines, and then—not those lines.

Well, no, by then I'd stopped doing those kind of lines, yeah. But I think it's interesting to trace your path to all the polymath that you are, all the things you do. You're the same, though. I mean, you're the same. And it's like—because the reason why I'm kind of steering you are. You're the same, though. I mean, you're the same. And it's like, because the reason why I'm kind of steering you this way is that I find,

and this is definitely what you've done, that when soup comes to nuts and the great wheel of time moves... Fortuna's wheel. Right, and all that. And when the dog of history does a poop on the side of the road. Oh, yes.

It's always about the right. It's always about the right. The right is the freedom. I used to think the stand-up was the freedom, but the stand-up is not the freedom. I thought it was, but it's not. The stand-up is freedom of performance. But actual, full-blown, artistic, mental, emotional, and spiritual freedom,

I think, for me, anyway, is in writing. And I know that it's that. It's got to be that for you, because you went back to writing books after we finished in Late Night. Right. And still, right? Yeah, and you know, that was,

thank you for mentioning that, but for me, the joy of writing in in many forms is for instance when i did uh the late late show right at the conference table at 10 in the morning for us to talk out our day and all that stuff and we'd go off and do our sketches and you know we'd we'd pretend to be working right and um and and we do the show skeleton robot like all that stuff yeah uh six o'clock we're done there's no post-production that's true and I would go home yeah

and I would have dinner when I say home I'm talking about the Oakwood apartments yeah because you were you were living you and your wife were living in

in the east coast and you used to commute to come and work on yes yeah once a month I would fly to LA and spend a month there and then I'd fly back

and spend a week of our hiatus that's a lot of pressure on a marriage. It is. And it was. But we're strong and we're still happy. Yeah, that's great. Well done. I'll do a little sidebar here and talk about the number of occasions that you would come to me right before the show and say, hey, Tom, I have a plane leaving Van Nuys Airport for the East Coast. Do you want to hitch a ride and come home for the weekend?

Yeah. And I would go, that Craig. But it was great. Yeah. Except for the time we almost crashed. Yeah, there was that time. That was in Hawaii Plains. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, that was when people started ralphing. Yeah, that was not a lot of fun. I still think about that sometimes. Oh, that was the most harrowing flight I've ever had in my life. Yeah, it was pretty gnarly. The Craig Ferguson Fancy Rascal Stand-Up Tour continues throughout the United States in 2024. For a full list of dates and tickets, go to thecraigfergusonshow.com slash tour. See you out there.

dot com slash tour. See you out there. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is. I think he was like, oh oh yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down and out divorcee?

Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast, Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa.

I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Misspelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians, actors in the world. We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love, and everything in between. This life right here, just finding myself, just relaxation, just not feeling stressed, this not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of.

I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly. Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you've come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone.

You're going to, you're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Guess what, Mango? What's that, Will?

So iHeart is giving us a whole minute to promote our podcast, Part-Time Genius. I know. That's why I spent my whole week composing a haiku for the occasion. It's about my emotional journey in podcasting over the last seven years, and it's called Earthquake House. Mango, I'm going to cut you off right there. Why don't we just tell people about our show instead? Yeah, that's a better idea. So every week on Part-Time Genius, we feed our curiosity by answering the world's most

important questions. Things like, when did America start dialing 911? Is William Shatner's best acting work in Esperanto? Also, what happened to Esperanto? Plus, we cover questions like, how Chinese is your Chinese food? How do dollar stores stay in business? And of course is there an Illuminati of cheese? There absolutely is

and we are risking our lives by talking about it. But if you love mind-blowing facts incredible history and really bad jokes, make your brains happy and tune in to Part-Time Genius. Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. But anyway, what I would do then is I would go back to the Oakwood

and call my wife before she went to bed because she was on East Coast time. And then I would write my castle book. I would start about 9 p.m. That's right, of course, because you were writing the castle books at the same time, right? Do you now take credit for the castle books publicly? I am able to take it.

I wrote the first seven of the Nicky Heats. Right. And I paid my lawyers to find out if I could do this. Right. Yes, I can now take off the mask and say I am. It was me. I was me. I was J.K. Rowling.

As long as I, you know, the first, those ones I did. But I would write from 9 p.m. till about 3 a.m. Right. And then go to bed. Okay. Get up at 6 and hit the internet so I could have topicals. You know, topical things to pitch at the table. So you were sleeping three hours a night?

Yeah. Couldn't you tell? Yeah. I was going to say, you look younger than you did when we were working together. My work habits were poor, weren't they? No, I'm kidding. No, you were a fiend. I mean, you used to work all the time, and you were part of the team that came up with Jeff Peterson, the robot. You came up with Secretariat, the dancing horse, and all of the classic bits from our show. You were part of all of that. Thank you. I remember something you said, and it's one of those little tapes I play in my head, is that,

that Tommy's always on the clock. You know, that's one of the things you would say. But it's, you know, you do the work. Yes. in the past year, I can be writing, like working on a manuscript for a book, and I'll get an email or a phone call with bad news. Right. And I go, oh, damn. Oh, show business, you cruel mistress. Sugar and biscuits. Yeah. I'll go back and I'll hang up the phone.

I'll take five minutes to kind of cleanse, and then I will just go back to writing. Same thing when I get great news. Because that's the real thing. The writing is where it's at. It's certainly the place where you can escape most of all. The first time I ever wrote anything away from vulgar vaudevillian stuff that I've written was a book called Between the Bridge and the River, which is a novel that I wrote.

Thank you. And that book was in reactions because I had just made a movie that had stiffed, and I was so frustrated with it because I'd written this movie, I starred in this movie, I directed this movie, I was a producer in this movie,

and I didn't like it. So I was like, oh, man. But I have to say to you, because this is before you and I met. Yeah. I read your novel, and I thought to myself, that's the same guy who does that. Yeah. And it was just like the Snake Handlers and Palm Springs.

I mean, I can remember it very vividly because it was so very, it really caught hold with me. It was a great book. Thanks. It's an interesting thing about writing, because when I read the first book of yours I read, I didn't read the Castle books, the first book of yours I read was The Trigger Episode. Oh, yes. The Trigger Episode is a great book.

It's a detective genre, let's say. It's not, strictly speaking, a detective, but it kind of is, and it follows those rules a little bit. And you and I are both fans of Larry Block, right? Lawrence Block. Big fans. Great crime writer, one of America's greatest.

And friend. And friend, yeah. And I'm fascinated by that genre, but I wouldn't go near it. I'm entertained by it. You walk right into it, and you're quite comfortable in it. Why? Because it has rules, maybe? It has rules and it's a great stage upon which to play out morality. Yes, for sure. Because you've really just basically got sort of an iconoclastic hero or anti-hero who is meeting great resistance with the establishment or somebody who's trying to screw him over or somebody else. And for me, it goes back to even Jim Rockford.

I love the Rockford files. You remember when James Garner used to punch someone in a fight and then he would go, ow, because it hurt his hand. Somebody on that set knows what it's like to be in a fight. Yes. I love that. But my approach to this genre, I say, and it's really why the Castle books, let me tell you a little linkage here. The publisher of my Trigger episode, the movie stiffed.

Well, how about my whole publishing house closed? No. Yeah. So he went to Hyperion, which is owned by ABC Disney. Right. He takes me to lunch one day and he says, there's a new show coming on called Castle.

And you know, the relationship between these two people is a lot like the relationship between you and your characters in the Trigger episode. Would you consider doing a ghost write for a one-off? And I said, yeah, sure, I will. It went to number six in the New York Times. Okay. And then number three, and then number one for the third one, and on and on and on. That's great. I know. And like, it knocked me over with a feather. But the thing is, there was

sort of a joyful, and I'm not trying to pander here, but there was a joyful experience in approaching, and this is what I have in a new book that's coming out soon, is I try to look at the mystery and thriller genre to try to upend the sort of dark, clenched jaw ugliness of it and try to approach it musically in a major key. You know music. Right. So it's a mystery and it's a thriller and there are all sorts of things in it that are ugly and tense and all that. But there's also a romantic relationship that is organic and means something. The readers and viewers are always looking for where's the hook? How do I get in?

What do I want out of this? Yeah, that's what I mean. I'll say that when I'm watching stuff with Megan as well. If you're watching the first episode of something, we say, you in? And I'm like, oh, maybe. But people are always looking. It's like they're holding a grappling hook and they're looking for the place to throw it and get purchased.

And I think that, I wish I'd known that as a young performer, that people want you to succeed. The audience does. Not anyone else in show business. Everyone else in show business wants you to fail. But the audience wants you to succeed and and i i sometimes feel like when i was early on performing i kind of held back a little or or tried to appear more less genuinely enthusiastic about being there

right and then do you remember that time i do i tell you the story when i was working with mick jagger when we were writing that screenplay? When you went to Istanbul? Right. So when I was working with Mick Jagger, and the first time I saw him perform, I was talking to him afterwards, and I said, that was a hell of a performance you gave last night, because it was. And I didn't know what else to say. And I said, you do that every night?

And he said, oh, yeah. I said, now I never paid money to see someone who was shy oh man that's great i wish the audience could see you do your mcjagger hands right now yeah yeah no it was no it's all right you told the story and it was such a great one uh about how you were in istanbul and you went into the room, and there he... They sat him on this throne because he was the guest of honor. Mick is a very gracious and intelligent man,

so he's sitting there, and he's being very nice to everyone. Then they brought out this hat. They put it on him like he was the king or something, and I could see him going, oh, fuck. No propeller on it, I hope. No, no. If there was, he would have left. This hat was huge.

And it didn't fit him at all. It wasn't grounded in any way. I think he felt a little uncomfortable with the giant hat on. And had it been the time of cell phones, I would have conquered the internet with a photograph. You would have owned the day. Yeah. Yeah.

But sadly, this was in the analog times before the world fucking sucked and everything was okay. There was a comment made by Stephen King about writing.

Also, not a bad writer. Not a bad writer. And from people I know who know him, a wonderful man. He's awesome. He was, were you

there when he was on the late night show? I didn't see that one. No, he was. Were you there when he was on the Late Night show? I didn't see that one. No, he was... I was there, but I wasn't paying attention. Was that during your tenure or afterwards? That was after, yeah. Because he was on, and he was wonderful.

What a cheerful, upbeat, engaged, switched-on human being. A lovely man. I can only paraphrase what he said, but his quote was that most, he didn't say mediocre, but most writing that doesn't succeed generally is born out of fear. That's interesting.

In other words, that triggered me when you were saying about being a little shy on stage and so forth like that, is that restraint isn't your friend. No. No, not in the arts, I don't think it is. I think that in any form of artistic expression, if you're restraining yourself,

you're thinking about the audience. And if you're thinking about the audience, you're lost. And it's kind of, I never knew that. Like the greatest battle, I was talking to my son about this the other day, because he's in, you know, Milo is a creative. He's in the arts. Yeah, he is.

He's got his own animation studio now. I mean, it's nuts. That little guy. Yeah, he ain't that little anymore. Now, your kids are all big. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's weird in their 30s.

That's weird, isn't it? Anyway, so enough about them. Back to us. Yes. I was talking to him about it. I, so enough about them. Back to us. Yes. I was talking to him about it. I said, the biggest challenge I have when I have an idea to write anything is to not convert the first sentence into the acceptance speech of the award that I'm going to get. So it was a bright, cold day in April.

And I'd like to thank the Academy. You have to stop that thought somehow. Do you get that or am i just a well you know i keep trying to tell myself i've learned this lesson but i haven't right because i keep doing it right um but i i used to say to writers in the writer's room on shows i worked on where do you spend the most time on your script answer the beginning right what is the first thing you cut when you need to edit your script the beginning right but you What is the first thing you cut when you need to edit your script? The beginning. Right.

But you need to clear your throat. You need to do something to kind of get, make friends, shake hands with the project you started. Right. And, you know, again, there's all these lessons that we forget, but to me, it's like,

okay, get through the opening, overwrite it, that's why you have a second draft. And a third, and a fourth. Right, overwrite it. That's why you have a second draft and a third and a fourth. Right, but I think that that's the fun of writing. The first draft is you earn the draft afterwards by going through the first draft, I think. The first draft is hard. The only time that I found the first draft fun

is when writing fiction, literary fiction, because you don't know where it's going. So it's like reading it. You're not constrained to a form. Yeah. Because there is a rigid form to mysteries and thrillers. Right, exactly. It is the beginning of the land.

It's all pyramid and all that stuff. And that's valid. But you have to kind of like do a dance to not make it look like it's a recipe in a cookbook. Right. I think that might be the skill of it as well. I mean, I read my first Agatha Christie about a month ago. And I was like, oh, my God, this is genius. It was, and then there were none, was the name of the book.

Yes. That is a spectacular piece of work. I mean, spectacular. And I don't know why I'd rather written it off as a kind of murder she wrote type thing. And I actually, I don't know why I would write off that because I didn't know anything about murder she wrote.

Has there been a murder? You were part of that too, weren't you? Yeah, of course, yeah. But the writing in that, and P.D. James as well, these English women writers, amazing writers. I'm a very big fan of the Brit and Scottish writers. Yeah, Denise Mina is another one.

Denise, Ian Rankin. Yeah, not a woman, but still an excellent writer. Yeah, but, you know, Mick Herron, if you're familiar with the Slow Horses. And Trainspawn, remind me. Evan Welsh. Yes. Yeah. I love those books.

Yeah? I love the Brits and the Scots. Well, it's all kind of, you know, it's all the same. It's the same language, isn't it? Yeah, there is. But there's a sort of a sense that, and this is kind of like why a lot of the Scandinavian noir books came out in popularity, is that that region, first of all, greatly unexplored in the American sense of Humphrey Bogart and those people like that. But there's still kind of a very noir thing going on in those areas.

I mean, there's still that power base. Well, it's noir most of the year. It's like the sun only comes up for a couple hours. I know. Have you ever been up to Scandinavia? Yes. I ran a marathon, a midnight sun marathon in Tromso, Norway. What?

Fourth of July. The race started at 8.30 at night, and it was sunny. It was incredible. When was this? This would have been six months before the towers came down. So this would have been 2001. Wow. In July.

And what a great trip. I loved it up there. The funny part, Craig, is that people assumed that I was one of them because I'm blonde. Yeah, you do look Scandinavian. Yeah. No, you still look Scandinavian.

You look like a professor of economics at Stockholm University. Yeah, step into here, why don't you? Step into here and we will discover. I can only do Nazis from movies in the 1950s

about, you know, the previous war. Or Romans as Brits. Romans and Brits. In the British accent. That's right. Caesar, messenger. Sire.

Don't call me sire. I'm Caesar. Caesar. But people would come up to me in Norway, both in Oslo and in Tromso but people would come up to me in Norway both in Oslo and in Tromso and they would

talk to me like and I would just look at them like Bill Murray in the restaurant with Pepsi Pepsi you know I'd just be looking

and smiling you know yeah do your Scandinavian on the fjord in the skis down the slope it's they're interesting people I like I liked going there I did too On the fjord, in the skis, down the slope.

They're interesting people. I liked going there. I did too. Did you go to Stockholm? I did. No, wait, I haven't been to Stockholm. I've read that you turned me on to the Dragon Tattoo books. Yes, right.

And I feel like I've been there. I haven't been there. I want to go. Stockholm's amazing. They have this museum there. It's a ship that overturned in Stockholm Harbor about 500 years ago or something like that, and it got preserved in the mud. And they've dug it all up and they put it in a museum. It's an old ship, but it's totally freaky. The bodies and everything are there too. Because Scandinavians, they seem to me an eminently practical people.

They're like, oh, this is a dead body. Look, children. What can we do with this? Poke it with a stick. It's like, oh my God.

And they also have the ABBA museum if you need something. Yes. I would like to go there and, you know, I can do Waterloo with them. The greatest hotel,

perhaps on earth, I think, is the Diplomat Hotel in Stockholm. Stay there. I will. It's unbelievable. It's not huge, and it's pretty fancy. But it's amazing. Right on the waterfront in Stockholm. If I had my life to live again, I'd probably live there, in the Diplomat Hotel, as a writer. I think I would go there maybe July or August, though. Maybe get some... Yeah, I'd probably live there in the Diplomat Hotel as a writer.

I think I would go there maybe July or August though, maybe get some... Yeah, I've never been there. Not be so... is that what they say in... Drich in Scotland. But they have this thing in Stockholm is where I first come across it. They call it Hygge. And they light candles in the morning. I now do it every day. People think I'm a deeply know deeply religious catholic or something but i i when i have a cup of coffee even if it's a sunny day i light a candle in the morning there's something about bright bright candlelight not a light but bright candlelight that kind of

like sets you up can i make a little confession yes i light candles when i write even in the daytime that's interesting there's something you, and I have my feather quill. No, I don't do that, but, but, you know, I,

there's something about the ritual of lighting a candle. Yeah. Of having that controlled flame nearby. Right. And to watch it dance a little bit, and then it starts to get a little darker during the day. Are you religious though? Spiritual.

Right. Okay. So, so you believe in God, but you're not prepared to go with any particular flavor. Yeah, I was raised, I was an altar boy. I was raised Catholic. You know, there was a line in French Connection 2

when Gene Hackman was captured, and they asked him if he was Catholic, and he says, retired. Yeah. You know, so yeah, it's still in my heart, but the ritual of it, all of that, it's more personal now to me. It's more like my own having that spiritual.

You're a Depeche Mode Catholic. Yeah, yeah. Your own personal Jesus. I'm an I can't play by your rules Catholic. Yeah. Which would make you a Protestant. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious tori spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes

glamorous sometimes chaotic life and marriage i don't think he knew how big it would be how big the life i was given and live is i I think he was like, oh yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down and out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said,

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Hello, everyone. I am Lacey Lamar. And I'm Amber Ruffin, a better Lacey Lamar. Boo. Okay, everybody, we have exciting news to share. We're back with season two of the Amber and Lacey, Lacey and Amber show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network. You thought you had fun last season? Well, you were right. And you should tune in today for new fun segments like Sister Court and listening to Lacey's steamy DMs. We've got new and exciting guests like Michael Beach. That's my husband. Daphne Spring, Daniel Thrasher, Peppermint,

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or wherever you get your podcasts. It's a very interesting thing, I think, because atheism, which I've always been rather attracted to as a kind of adolescent foot stomp of a thing to have, is, I can't do it is I can't do it. You know, I can't do it. It's too... It becomes its own form of fundamentalism. Oh, it is.

It is fundamental in its actual statement. There is no God. What could be more fundamental in that statement? And if anybody's listening who has adopted that as a philosophy or religion or anti-religion, more power to you. You know, I don't judge. But it just never attracted me to feel living in a void. It attracted me.

I was interested in it when I was younger. But I think as you get older and, you know, that thing C.S. Lewis said about death, said, you know, death is easy to ignore when it's a horseman two valleys away and you can only vaguely see it on the hill. But when you can hear the hoof beats, it gets your attention. And I think that, I mean I'm paraphrasing because he was far more eloquent.

But the image is beautiful. Yeah. And that was what kind of drew me back around into kind of looking at it. Why I ended up doing this podcast, I think, is because I wanted to, how do you cope? This is what I like about it, frankly, is first of all, the fact that it's got no artifice. I like the fact that it's just a conversation. It is, only that, yeah.

But also that it is something to reflect on. It's like, what is joy? Where is it? To me, it's like, what is joy? You know, where is it? What is, you know, to me, it's kind of a decision. Oftentimes,

yeah. It's also, you know, and this is my own spirit talking, it's what you give to other people. In other words,

I get great joy out of bringing joy or trying to bring. You don't always succeed. Sometimes you do something very bad. Here, let me do you a favor.

Oh my God, what happened? I wasn't there. It wasn very bad. Here, let me do you a favor. Oh, my God! What happened? I wasn't there. It wasn't me. But I do think that joy is in the small things. Well, it's connected, I think, to health. Yeah. Mental, physical, spiritual health.

If you're struggling with health of any description, things get a little more difficult, I think. Do you meditate? I do, actually. I dismissed it as an indulgence until I kind of started doing it a little bit. And I get a lot from it. I don't have anything particularly formal to practice it. I just set a timer on my phone and yeah.

There was a book I read 30 years ago, I guess, by John Cabot Zinn. Have you heard of him? No. The book is called Wherever You Go, There You Are. I've heard that phrase before. Yeah. He wrote a book and it's really how to meditate. And it's sort of like, as Joseph Campbell was to mythology, this book is about meditation. And I thought to myself, you know, it isn't wasted time. No.

It actually makes me feel better. It makes me more efficient at other things, although the important thing is not to have a goal. Right. I think that's probably why I dismissed it when I was younger, because up until, I think probably round about the pandemic or just before, everything in my life was goal-oriented. You know, a result had to be connected in some way to just about every movement. And I think that that, particularly in career or in the use of... Where do you think that comes from? Can I ask you? You don't mind me interviewing you a little bit?

Where does that come from in your life, do you think, that made you such an achiever? I think for me it comes from financial difficulty when I was young. Cumbernail. Yeah, I think it comes from... I think most things come from the foundations. If a building's going to topple, it topples from there, doesn't it? Yeah. And what about you?

Where does it come from for you? How was your upbringing? It was not financially risky, but it was a very... I had a very, very unhappy childhood in terms of my father. Right. Was he a drunk, that old thing? He probably was in hindsight. Right.

But abusive, not sexually, but a lot of slapping, beating, violence, hey, your name is fuck up today, that kind of stuff. Oh, great. And so what that does is that makes you try not to fuck up. Right. You know what I mean? So out of that forms a sort of a work ethic, a defensive posture. You know, I've thought about this a great deal. I haven't done therapy about it.

But in hindsight, I can see that beginning that I had, you know, I created a world for myself where I would be accountable and win. I understand that. I think for me, it was more about the avoidance of discomfort and pain and maybe even embarrassment. I remember when I was about six or seven years old having to go to the dentist. And I remember having this thought thinking, if I can somehow get on TV, I won't have to go to the dentist. I found out later that you go to the dentist much more. Yes, I spend most of my fucking life in the dentist. But it was the avoidance of pain and fear and discomfort,

which is interesting because if you look at the media now, it's not the same as even the television that we inhabited. It's funny, I was talking to Seth Meyers last night, we were talking about how much stuff had changed in late night. When you and I were doing late night television, it was still television. I mean, it was coming to the end of it, but it doesn't really exist in that form anymore. What I see now is the, I call it the fear industrial complex. You're selling engagements in the form of clicks, right? Right.

So what will you click on? You click on what you're afraid of. You know, to remain safe, I must have this information. Say what? Let me look at this. After the bridge thing in Baltimore, I saw this. I don't know where it was on, it's a tabloid thing. It said, you know, a list of 20 bridges in America that this could, you know, look out for these bridges.

And I go, are you out of your fucking mind? The chances of this happening once are astronomical. Right. You know, the chances of, it's so, it's so fear-bending. I'm not saying it can't happen again. It might happen again, but it probably won't. Right. And that's, and it was weird that it happened in the first place.

And then if you can't explain the phenomenon, then you invent a conspiracy to explain the phenomenon, you know. It's like, oh, the sun is going away. What happened? Right. Today, this very day, like, oh, the sun is going away. What happened? Today, this very day, we were talking, the eclipse is happening. And it's so weird to me when people, particularly those two times

when I hear conspiracy theories, then I go, I think this is an emotional problem for you. Because when I hear people talking about the Hollywood community, I go, first of all, you show me where the fucking community is in Hollywood. I worked in Hollywood for 25 years. Like, everybody is, there's no fucking community.

Talk about an oxymoron. Right. That's just a pack, a box of crabs trying to destroy each other. Yeah. And then the other thing when you talk about government conspiracy, you go, have you met anyone in government? They're thick as pig shit. They're like, I mean, I am shocked. When you go, have you met anyone in government? The thickest picture.

They're like, I mean, I am shocked. When you go to Washington and you meet people who are like working in the running of this country, you go,

oh my God, I wouldn't trust you to walk my fucking dog. That's right. It's unbelievable. That's why John le Carre said that the government conspiracies are generally a cover-up.

Sure. Because they're, because they fucked up. Look what we did. Yeah. Oops. Yeah. You know,

I think that's right. I mean, but it's, it's the whole thing about, you know, like people who are flat earthers. I'm like, you don't really,

can you really believe that? Is that a thing? Yeah. And I think it's an emotional rejection of some kind. I think it's connected to emotionality. I don't think it's about stupidity or anything. That's why I think, and I'll say it again, that's why this forum that you've created here on this podcast

is one that's important now because it explores not just something that's sort of on the positive side of things, but it's in this kind of thing that's going to maybe make us stop a minute and say, you know, what's good? What's, what is joyful? How can I, uh, not create the opposite of joy in people? Where can we connect? And I think that is something you've accomplished with this. I think that that's a lovely idea, Tom, and very supportive of you. And I, uh. And I'm not trying to reject your hypothesis,

but I completely reject your hypothesis. You what? No, I mean, it sounds loftier than what I have in mind for this, which is conversation. But even as I say that, I think the actual conversation without an agenda is quite a lofty goal. Because it's dangerous, I think, because the consequences of speaking freely right now about anything, an opinion you may not have formed.

See, that's why I don't understand it. I used to feel like I could speak about stuff that I wasn't sure about. Like, I'm not sure about this. Maybe it's this, maybe it's that. But if you say maybe it's this, you can cut out that not sure about this. Maybe it's this, maybe it's that. But if you say, maybe it's this, that's, you can cut out that little piece where you say, maybe it's this. And then people, you're definitely saying that's the thing. And all you were doing was thinking out loud. You can't think out loud anymore. I remember one time in the writer's room, you had, you said something again, I'll paraphrase. There was somebody who was in

trouble, like the cancel culture kind of thing. Somebody had said something on a hot mic and all that. And I really took to heart what you said. You said, you know what? We have the advantage of being recorded. We can edit afterward if something isn't right. Yeah, that's true. And you've got to give fair play to somebody who is just freewheeling and oops. Now, if the person is revealing something truly ugly

about what they think or believe about things that's a different story but yeah but i mean that the the idea of and this is the the interesting thing i think about writing as well because i want to talk to you about the book which is what i wanted to talk to you about anyway but of course we've ended up talking about a million other things there There's stuff that I wrote down, jokes that I've made, or beliefs that I put into books that I wrote 15 years ago, that I look at it now and go, I don't believe that anymore. Good for you. Yeah, but the thing is, in the world of documentation, you will always believe that.

That's quite an interesting thing. It's like, I always think about Martin Luther. If he had stopped before he went on the anti-Semitic rant, it really would have helped his legacy a great deal. He's like, just shh, shh. You had me to this point. Right up to that bit, if you just stop there. There you go.

Now, talk to me about the new book. The new book is called The Accidental Joe. Right. It's about coffee? How did you know? No, Joe being the slang term in the trade for a spy. Ah. A spy who's being run by handlers.

So that's why you mentioned Le Carre. You've gone spy novel. Oh, yeah. You know what? Here's the idea that I had. I told Nancy. Have we talked about it before? Nancy Joseph's been the greatest agent in the history of Hollywood.

I said to her, I have an idea. It came to me on a run, and I'm glad I remembered it. It's an elevator pitch that only takes one floor. And that is, what if Anthony Bourdain had been using his show to spy for the CIA? Okay. And that's the book. That's good. Yeah. So that's the book. That's good. Yeah.

So that's the setup. And so what we've got is. Oh my God. And then you put in cause Anthony Bourdain. Yeah. Oh man. So there it went. And,

and you know, the book. It's not about Anthony Bourdain though. No, I created Sebastian Pike. Right. Celebrity chef. Sebastian Bourdain.

Yeah. Tantany Bourdain. Yeah. Tantany Orbane. Yeah, what's the pop-up? Pringles Prongles, yes. But I created this world, and there's a romance element in it. And also, there's a sort of an appeal to see how these shows get made. Right. You know, so it's spying, and it's torture, and it's gunshots,

and it's also how you make flambé. Flambé. How you make a croquembouche. Wow. A what, what, what? A croquambe. How you make a croquembouche. Wow. A what? A croquembouche. What's a croquembouche? It's puff pastry in a tower.

Croquembouche. I was thinking it was a mouth like a crocodile in your mouth. Hey, wait a minute. I think I've got a sequel. Crocodile in your mouth. But the book,'s sold in a weekend right and I had offers from Hollywood

and I have made a deal really? you sold the rights to it? you surprised me yeah to Sony I've heard of them yeah there's a fabulous

producing team Seth Gordon and Julia Gunn they have a I love the title of their production studio it's called exhibit a nice. Uh, and they do a show on Netflix called the night agent.

If you've seen that, uh, it's really great. You should catch it. I'm thinking of the night manager, but that's not the same. No, that's not the same thing,

but this is, this is about an FBI agent, uh, who works in the white house and the conspiracy thing. Very good. But, um, we,

we, of course everything was on zoom. Uh, we had our zoom meeting and it was like, I had such a was on Zoom. Oh, yeah. We had our Zoom meeting, and it was like I had such a connection with them. You know, it's the two big words. Big money.

No. The two big words are shared point of view. Shared POV. Yeah, shared POV. It's not two words. I need to edit. Yeah, that's your first draft. You get me on a hot mic,

you know, and anything can come out. There's a great darts commentator in Britain, a sports commentator, Britain famously said at the end of it, because they watch darts in Britain. I was in London not long ago and watched it. And they call it a sport. It's like, you know,

overweight alcoholic men throwing tiny little arrows. Yes. But he said there was some guy, and he said, there's only one word for that, magic darts. Which always appealed to me greatly.

Tom, you are, of course, a joy. You are. It's great to talk to you and great to catch up. Let's do it again soon. I would love to. Good luck with the accidental joke, which I will read on purpose almost immediately. Thank you.

Want to know how to leverage culture to build a successful business? Then Butternomics is the podcast for you. I'm your host, Brandon Butler, founder and CEO of Butter ATL. And on Butternomics, we go deep with today's most influential entrepreneurs, innovators, and business leaders to peel back the layers on how they use culture as a driving force in their business. Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level. as a driving force in their business. Butternomics will give you what you need to take your game to the next level.

Listen to Butternomics on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. For 10 years, I've been obsessed with one of the most bizarre and audacious cons in rock and roll history. We were all facing 20 years and all that good stuff. The lead singer tried to pull off an English accent, and they went on the road as the zombies. These guys are not going to get away with it.

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