Joy, a Podcast. Hosted by Craig Ferguson - Valarie Kaur

Episode Date: September 17, 2024

Meet Valarie Kaur, a Sikh activist, author, lawyer, spiritual leader, and founder of the Revolutionary Love Project. Her children's book WORLD OF WONDER was released on August 20th followed shortly after by her book SAGE WARRIOR on September 10th released by Random House. Additionally, in this crucial election year, Valarie is taking the Revolutionary Love Project on a bus tour across 40+ cities in the United States from September – October.  The tour will energize hearts, build community bonds, and equip thousands of people with practical tools to integrate Revolutionary Love into daily life. Here is fascinating conversation between Craig and Valarie. EnJOY! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We're just days away from our 2024 iHeartRadio Music Festival, presided by Capital One. The biggest headliners in live music will be taking over T-Mobile Arena, Las Vegas. Plus some special surprises and moments you are not going to want to miss. Stream only on Hulu. The iHeartRadio Music Festival. And listen on iHeartRadio. The most anticipated live music event of the year. This Friday and Saturday,

starting at 10.30 p.m. Eastern, 7.30 Pacific. Hey, everyone. This is Jimmy O'Brien from John Boy Media. I want to quickly tell you about my podcast. It's called Jimmy's Three Things. Episodes come out every Tuesday, and for 30 minutes, I dive into three stories in Major League Baseball that I wanna talk about,

or I do a stat deep dive. Sometimes I create my own stats. It gets weird. It's now your go-to podcast for staying up to date and in the weeds with Major League Baseball. No topic is off limits or too small. Bad umpires, great pitcher-catcher duos, new rules, old rules, three things that

I want to talk about. Listen to Jimmy's three things on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We think of Franklin as the dodging dude flying a kite in the rain. Benjamin Franklin is our subject for a new season with Walter Isaacson. He's the most successful self-made business person in America. A printer, a scientist, a founding father, but maybe not the guy we think we know. Franklin casts his lot on the side of revolution, and it's another thing that splits the family apart.

Listen to On Benjamin Franklin with Walter Isaacson on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Craig Ferguson Pants On Fire Tour is on sale now. It's a new show, it's new material, but I'm afraid it's still only me, Craig Ferguson, on my own, standing on a stage, telling comedy words. Come and see me. Buy tickets. Bring your loved ones. Or don't come and see me.

Don't buy tickets and don't bring your loved ones. I'm not your dad. You come or don't come, but you should at least know it's happening. And it is. The tour kicks off late September and goes through the end of the year and beyond. Tickets are available at thecraigfergussonshow.com. They're available at thecraigfergussonshow.com. Or at your local outlet in your region. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness.

Now listen, I know sometimes on this podcast, I have stand up comedians telling dirty stories about what they do. And that's fun, but that's not today. Today, my guest is activist and filmmaker Valerie Korr. This is a deep one, but I think a really good one. Please welcome Valerie Korr. I'm very interested to see that you're using little wiry headphones because I think of you as a very tech savvy person. I thought you would be very Bluetooth-y. No I'm not, mostly because I lose things or my children pick up the little tiny

things. Oh they do, that's right. When my kids were very young there were no AirPods because I imagine it's like a really chokey thing, right? You'd have to be really careful with AirPods. I mean, they're five and nine, so my little things disappear all the time and are part of my daughter's doll scenes. So it must have maybe like it would have been a soccer ball or something for her dolls. Now, listen, I want to start with the idea because I, I became aware of

you through your Ted talk, right? That's how I, I become, and, and your message is relentlessly and very, um, aggressive is the wrong word, but, um, but, but, but stridently positive, right? It's a, it's a positive, I think is a positive thing. A force for good, if you like. I'll take that. I actually don't use the word positive, but we can, we can come back to that. All right, good.

Well, let's talk about that because the reason why I bring it up is because I thought, well, when someone like, when, when I, when I come across someone like you in the zeitgeist, there's not many like that seems unfair. Like this, when, when I came across you in the zeitgeist or you on the internet, let's be honest. Um, I thought, well, the internet, uh, seeks a balance all the time. So if, if you're saying something like, uh, which I think is positive or I think is a good message message there will be plenty of people trying to redress that with negativity and If you have a revolution really love project

Then you're going to get I think you make yourself a target for some internet hate for that Just because that's the way it seems to go people don't that they need to have some balance for it So what I wanted to do first is talk to you a little bit about you so that people can't say, well, you know, she was a Nazi. Uh, and you know, I know you weren't a Nazi, but they, I mean, it's like, people can, you know, let's learn about, let's consider the source before we consider the message, do you know what I mean? That, that's really was source before we consider the message. Do you know what I mean? That's really what it was.

Because I know next to nothing, even although I grew up around quite a lot of, I used to say the word seek, but you say the word sick. Is it pronounced sick? It is pronounced sick, but really we're just so happy you know who we are in the first place. So we usually don't correct you. I was raised in Glasgow. There is a sick community in Glasgow. It's not, you know, I had been around people from your community before, or people from your, from your background.

There is that exists in Glasgow. And, and so I was familiar with it, but not really in the sense of how it differs from it's, it's Hindu, right? Is it a Hindu thing? No, it is. Oh, it's just separate, completely separate. Completely. It's its own religious tradition, its own wisdom tradition. It's one of the youngest wisdom traditions in the world. There are 26 million Sikhs worldwide, half a million in the US.

And it emerged from a time where the dominant religions were Hinduism and Islam, but it is its own wisdom tradition. And is it a tradition that you still practice? Are you still very much involved in it? Or are you more secular in your life now? I grew up with the stories and the song prayers that my grandfather used to tell me as he tucked me into bed at night. I grew up on the farmlands of California. My family has lived and farmed in California in the United States for 110 years. So, deep history here. So, I could have been someone who kind of floated away from the tradition,

but it was poured into me by my grandfather and his songs, his stories, his love infused me with a hair is like I inherited a treasure chest that I could reach into to find courage to live my life. And that's what I do still. What, what is the, the, the Sikh religion, the Sikh religion, I beg your pardon, the Sikh religion, is it, is it, it, is it, is it monotheism? Is it, is it? No.

The Western category. Yeah, I really don't know. Yeah, yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a tradition rooted in love. Love above all, deeply love. And maybe the best way to share it with you is through the origin story. OK, great. If you don't mind, that would be great.

Like I'll play my grandfather, you play me. Okay, that's good. All right. And I'll tell you the story. I have to say, visually you've let yourself go, but okay, if I'm you, there it is. All right, let's go. Half a millennium ago, halfway around the world in South Asia and the land of Punjab, there lived a man named Nanak. And Nanak looked around him. It was a time of conquest and cast

and cruelty. And he took all that pain into his heart. He meditated by the river every morning for 14 years. And then one morning he did not return home. People thought he was a dead man, a drowned man. The sun rose and then fell. The sun rose and fell. And on the third day, the sun rose. And Nanak emerged from the river. But he was stricken. He had a stricken look in his eye.

He did not speak. He did not stir until finally he gave one utterance. Nako Hindu, Nako Musliman. There is no Hindu. There is no Hindu. There is no Muslim. Which means there is no me against you at all. This was beyond love thy neighbor as yourself. This was beyond like taking the stranger.

This was see no stranger. That we are part of one another. We belong to one another. That we constitute each other. And that belonging to each other is the wellspring of love, that you can look up on the face of anyone and say, you are a part of me. I do not yet know. And so the origin of the faith is Ik On God, oneness ever unfolding.

And Nonic began not to give commandments or stories, but he began to sing, sing songs of love because to taste the truth of oneness, you have to get out of language, out of dichotomy, out of subject and object. You have to, you know, those moments when the music swells or you look in the face of your child or you're on the mountaintop and you're just, there's just no language at all. Guru Nanak was saying like, those are not incidental moments. Those are not throwaway moments. Those moments of wonder are actually sacred insights into the true nature of things.

The oneness that always is. And so we can't stay there. We have to live like Craig, you're over there and I'm over here, right? We have to live in a world of separation, but separation is an illusion. So how do we, we have an experience of oneness and then we remember the truth of it. And the way we do that is we move through the world, seeing all others as sisters, as brothers, as kin. And if I see you as my brother, correct, that means I got to show up for you when you need me, serve you when you need me, fight for you when you are in harm's way.

And so our people became Sant Sapahi, sage warriors, the warrior fights, the sage loves. I learned it as a path of revolutionary love. It's, it's a beautiful story and very poetic. I think, you know, I'm a little contrarian. So I wonder like when it's interesting because I think, well, you fight again, you know, I'm a little contrarian. So I wonder like when it's interesting because I think, well, you fight again, you know, you fight, fight for me when I need you, fight for your brothers or sisters when you need to,

but who you fighting against if we're all, if we're all brothers and sisters, you know what I mean? It's the other thing I think it's fascinating though, because I have, this is me talking about anybody else, but I, I tend to like, before I hear someone's story, I, I judge them. Do you know what I mean? Like it's like, if I see someone go, look at that guy, look at that jerk, you know, on a bus or on an airplane or something.

Yeah. And then you, and then you hear someone's story and you, and every, everything changes. Yeah. If you get to know who someone is, you know, hear someone's story and you, and everything changes. Yeah. If you get to know who someone is, you know, it kind of, do you have someone else there? What's your, My mother just walked in with a big plate of breakfast. That's lovely.

That's very nice. Do you want to say hi to Craig Ferguson? Hello. Hello. I very nice to meet you. What did you make for breakfast? I, I'm, I, she made me eggs. Thank you. Oh, that's lovely.

I love you. I haven't seen her in weeks. I got in last night and she just comes in. That is very nice. That's, that's very nice. Very nice. It is very nice. Very nice. It is very nice.

So, so you just got in last night. Were you away? Were you away working? Because you go around a lot, right? You work around. My new book just came out. Craig Sage Warrior just came out. So we did our big.

Right. So you're doing a book tour. Yeah. We did our big, we had some movement building tour because we did a big New York kickoff event. We're going to do LA. We're going to 45 cities around the country and we're spreading the message of revolutionary love.

We're telling stories. We're bringing songs. We're bringing tools for how to practice. What is the message of revolutionary love then? What is that? Revolutionary love is the call of our times. Revolutionary love is the choice to leave no one outside of our circle of care. How do you do that?

outside of our circle of care. How do you do that? Especially when people, when people are, you know, if someone rejects your message, you know, I mean, I mean, cause sometimes it's difficult to help. I know this because look, I spend my life around people who are either focused on not drinking or focused on drinking alcohol. And so sometimes when you want to help someone, they don't want to help. They don't want to be part of your movement. They don't want to be part of your thing.

And they'd rather literally in some cases rather die. How do you reach out to someone like that? Yeah. The first thing to know, because I like what you said about, well, you're fighting if everyone's your brother or sister, who are you fighting against? Here's the thing. We have opponents in this world. An opponent is anyone whose ideas, beliefs,

or actions oppose your own. I don't call them enemies, and that's the radical intervention. And enemies are fixed in permanent position. But an opponent is a fluid category. They might be, they might stay your opponent this whole lifetime, right? they might never see you or or want to just to to to support you or

Just Saying opponent opens up the possibility that transformation could happen. And how how do you practice loving one's opponent that? Practice I call tend the wound because I I've been an activist for 20 years. I've sat with former correctional officers, police officers, murderers, people who have killed people in my community, my own former abusers. And every time I want to hate them, I have to do what my ancestors taught me what to do,

to wonder, to wonder about them. Why? Why do they say that? Why do they do that? And beneath the slogans and the soundb bites, like when you want to hate them, if you hear their story, you see their wound. And I've come to understand that, oh, there are no such thing as monsters in this world. There are only human beings who are wounded, who act out of their fear or insecurity or rage that does not make them any less dangerous. Sure. But when we see their wound, they lose their power over us.

We become free. And we become smarter about how to respond. All right, it's not just enough to remove bad actors from power. What are the cultures? What are the institutions? What are the norms that drive that behavior? And then I get smarter about how to respond.

Yeah, it's an interesting thing. I mean, I remember talking to a long time ago, uh, talking to a man who changed my life, who I'm sure you're very familiar with is, uh, uh, archbishop Desmond Tutu. Who was talking about the idea of, you know, resentment being, you know, is like drinking a poison and then expecting someone else to die. Yes. You know, it's the idea of, because Father Tutu was one of the architects of the Truth and Reconciliation Committee.

Is it similar to that idea that trying to resolve conflict through resolution rather than continuation of conflicts? Is that the idea? Absolutely. It's, you know, I'm saying it's coming from my tradition and my ancestors, but it's really the heart of all the great wisdom traditions. Sure. I understand that.

Yeah. I wonder, is it something that applies because America right now, particularly as you run up to the election, it's quite tribal. There are a lot of opponents right now. Right. Yeah. I mean, and it's really hard to reach across the, I don't want to say the aisle, but it's just like to reach across any, any gap without people in, in a post-truth environment. Right. That it's kind of where I was at the, at the beginning that, you know, I want, I wanted to establish where with everyone that I talked to, especially about something like this is their credentials for talking about it because people

will lie about you. You know, how do, how do you take that? I mean, even if you see someone's wound, I'm sure that, you know, if, if, uh, if someone says something hateful about you or your family on, on the internet, how do you deal with that? Do you just ignore it? I mean, how do you, how do you cope with that? Did you just ignore it? Did, I mean, how do you, how'd you cope with it? Yeah.

James Baldwin said, love has never been a popular movement. Like it's never, it's never been popular or safe or easy to stand in one shared humanity or stand in love. And I certainly, I mean, I, I, my message sort of is challenging for people across the political spectrum. You know, I, I certainly, I mean, I, I, my message sort of is challenging for people across the political spectrum, you know. I, you know, I fight for social justice in this country.

So of course I have people on the far right who see me as their opponent or their enemy really. But then I have people who call themselves progressives. And when I call for love as like the most revolutionary necessary force to transition this country, they're like, oh, we're ready for war. We're not ready for love. We're ready for war.

And so that's when like the hate that I get is from across the spectrum. And what I invite people into is understanding that everyone has a different role in the labor of revolutionary love at any given time. When we are being so hurt in the face of onslaught, assaults, injustice, it is okay, it is rightful to feel rage. That our rage is loaded with information and energy, it connects us to our ability to fight for ourselves, to defend ourselves. So if I'm getting attacked and my family's getting attacked, yes, like this is, my people were warriors, right? We defend ourselves with one hand, but then we don't lose the sight of the sage because in the next moment, maybe not now, but in the next moment,

next season, there might be an opportunity to say, what about, what about their children? What story are they telling themselves? How do, how do I create, how do I respond in such a way that after the battle is done, after the election is over, we can still find a way to live with each other. will be taking over T-Mobile Arena, Las Vegas. Plus, some special surprises and moments you are not going to want to miss. Stream only on Hulu. The iHeartRadio Music Festival. And listen on iHeartRadio.

The most anticipated live music event of the year. This Friday and Saturday, starting at 10.30 p.m. Eastern, 7.30 Pacific. How do you feel about biscuits? Hi, I'm Akilah Hughes, and I'm so excited about my new podcast, Rebel Spirit, where I head back to my hometown in Kentucky and try to convince my high school to change their racist mascot, the Rebels, into something everyone in the South loves, the biscuits.

I was a lady rebel. Like, what does that even mean? The Boone County Rebels will stay the Boone County Rebels, but the image of the biscuits ... It's right here in black and white in print. A lion. An individual that came to the school saying that God sent him to talk to me about the mascot switch is a leader. You choose hills that you want to die on. Why would we want to be the losing team? I just take all the other stuff out of it.

Segregation academies. When the civil rights said that we need to integrate public schools, these charter schools were exempt from it. Bigger than a flag or mascot. You have to be ready for serious backlash. Listen to Rebel Spirit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi everyone, it's me, Katie Couric. Have you heard about my newsletter called Body and Soul? It has everything you need to know about your physical and mental health. Personally, I'm overwhelmed by the wellness industry. I mean, there's so much information out there about lifting weights, pelvic floors, cold plunges, anti-aging. So I launched Body and Soul to share doctor-approved insights about all of that and more.

We're tackling everything, serums to use through menopause, exercises that improve your brain health, and how to naturally lower your blood pressure and cholesterol. Oh, and if you're as sore as I am from pickleball, we'll help you with that too. Most importantly, it's information you can trust.

Everything is vetted by experts at the top of their field, and you can write into them directly to have your questions answered. So sign up for Body and Soul at katikurik.com slash body and soul. Taking better care of yourself is just a click away. How do you come to this? Is there a radical moment in your life that you say, okay, look, because you

study, you, you were a, you studied divinity, right? That was your college. Yeah. I studied religion. I studied law, um, and became a lawyer, a filmmaker, an organizer, a faith leader. But, you know, out of all the things I studied, nothing showed me more than living. I think the moment that changed me was I became an activist after a family friend was murdered in the wake of September 11th, more than 20 years ago now.

The racial violence that exploded across the United States and the aftermath of those terrorist attacks targeted sick Americans because our people, to show their devotion to love and service, wear articles of faith, keep our hair long, and our men, some women, wrap their long hair in a turban. And so, since 9-11, looking at the screen and seeing a picture of Osama bin Laden again and again, said, oh, our nation's new enemy looks like my family. Right. And so, Sikh Americans were at the forefront of all of that violence in this country alongside our Muslim brothers and sisters. And the first person murdered in the

aftermath was Balbir Singh Sodhi. He was standing in front of his gas station in Mesa, Arizona when he was killed. And his death turned me, a whole generation of us into activists. 20 years later, the backlash, the aftermath never ended. Hate violence never went down to the levels they were before 9-11. And so we're just living in a world where the threat of terror and violence is constant. And so for many years, for 15 years after Bilbirra uncle's murder, I could only think of the killer with rage, rightful rage, right? And hate, bordering on hate. Like he took so much from us.

And it was 15 years later when I just, you know, it's what Desmond Tutu said, right? Am I drinking this poison? And hurting myself, is he? 15 years later, the younger brother of Bobir Uncle, Rana, and I decided to try to change the story. We made a phone call to the Arizona State Prison, Federal Prison, where Frank Roke was being held.

And this is the gentleman who murdered Balbir. Yeah, that's right. And Craig, at first, I thought, oh, this was a terrible mistake. I mean, it sounds like a really bad idea. If I, if I would have been around you at the time, I'd have been like, this is probably maybe something else would be a better idea. Yeah. Like there's limits to love. Like you don't call your uncle's murderer and try to make things better like that.

Right. So, and in the beginning he said, well, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. He was kind of flailing. He's like, I'm sorry for what happened to your uncle, but I'm also sorry for the thousands who were killed on 9-11 refusing to take responsibility. I'm feeling rage rise in me, like fire in a cage. And maybe because I was holding that rage,

it gave Rana the space to wonder about Frank, to listen and to hear what I could not hear. Rana says, Frank, this is the first time I've heard you say you were sorry. And Frank says, yes, yes, I am sorry for what I did to your brother. And when I go to heaven to be judged by God, I will ask to see your brother and I will ask for his forgiveness." And Rana says, we've already forgiven you. That moment, I realized forgiveness is not forgetting. No.

Forgiveness is freedom from hate. And sometimes forgiveness comes at the end of a long healing journey like it did for us. Sometimes it comes at the very beginning. Like it used to make me cringe to see people look into the eyes of murderers and say, I forgive you. But now I understand they were saying, you cannot make me hate you. You don't have that power over me.

Sometimes forgiveness comes in the messy middle. Sometimes forgiveness does not come at all. The survivor withholds her forgiveness because it is her only active agency. And that is okay. That is up to the survivor to decide. What I do know is that once you do forgive, it frees you. It frees you. Like knocks that poison out of your hand, like you.

And because of that, I began to meet with Frank. I began to talk with him and hear his story and see his wound. And I learned so much, Craig, I learned so much. I learned that so much of white nationalist rage in this country is a symptom of unresolved grief. Like they're grieving the notion that this country ever belonged just to them in the first place. I might not agree with that grief.

I might not think it's right, but, and I might not be, it might not be my role to tend to that grief, but someone's got to, like someone's got to. Like when I think, like, I think about people, like if you- Who do you think should? If if it's something like that who who should tend to it Is it your uncle sitting at that kitchen table spewing that eight? Is it is it your neighbor down the street? Is it is your child's classmate? Is it? The teenager who is caught in the algorithm like like you said because our algorithms don't give us a shared sense of reality anymore.

We're in our own. If you're not, Hannah Arendt said, isolation breeds radicalization. Like if you're not puncturing that bubble, who is? Right. So it's very interesting. So how does one puncture that bubble then? How do you go about it? Yeah.

Our thinking is like, I'm going to go and just tell them what's what. And so how does one puncture that bubble then? How do you go about it? Yeah. Our thinking is like, I'm going to go and just tell them what's what. I'm going to go tell them what's right. But you know, like ever try to lecture your children into obedience. Yeah, I know. I know. Right? I have to like show my children that the insight lives inside of them. And how do I do that?

I have to ask questions. Like human beings, we mirror each other. If you come out with daggers out, they're gonna come out with daggers out. But if you come out and you're like, you really want to know why, if you wonder, goes back to wonder, why? Like, why do you like that video?

Why do you like what that guy says? Why do you like that policy? Why do you like that candidate? Why? You get, and then you unearth the story. And you unearth the story and you unearth the, like, oh, I care about my kid's future too. Oh, you know, you affirm whatever you see

that is deeply human inside. And then because we mirror each other, they might just start wondering about you too. They might want to hear your story. And when that happens, Craig, it's like, like a magical portal opens up of deep listening, right? Like deep listening is an act of surrender. You risk being changed by what you hear.

It's a process, a relationship, and it might lead to transformation. It might not, but that's okay because you've gained information for what to do next when you're out in the world and you're standing for your positions. Can you hold up a vision of the future that doesn't leave anyone behind, not even them? How does that manifest itself in like you're going on the books just come out and you're going on a tour and you, I mean, you use the word movement yourself, you know, which is interesting to me, how does it manifest itself in, in an, in an event when you go to solid left, there are people who said, we were angry at you, Valerie, boo.

We don't believe what you believe. How do you deal with that in the moment? I mean, do you say, I hear you. And what about the people that are there to hear you? I mean, the, the, uh, the division, how do you cope with it? Yeah. Uh, because, because really, uh, oftentimes I think people who, uh, who radically disagree with the stands.

Sometimes I think it's just about, it's just about the disruption. That might not even be your message there again, it's just about the disruption. It might not even be your message there again. It's just about making a lot of noise because they want to do that. I sometimes wonder in acts of terrorism if the means is the end. That someone is just enjoying the terror of it. The polemic may not be as identifiable as yours. You know, that it's just, they're just agents of chaos. If one has to enjoy the terror of it in order to be seen and heard, imagine the pain that is lying beneath that.

Sure, I can. But what do you do? Yeah. Well, right. Sage and warrior. There's a, there's a protection. Like, is there security? We have security at all of our events.

Like, is there a way to make sure that they're not hurting us, that they're not hurting themselves? Like, that's key. I understand that. Right. And then I, but then I turn to the audience and I say, let's slow it down, notice what's happening in your body, notice that tension.

We are so accustomed to taking that, oh, that tightness, that small hard parts of ourselves that feel threatened and then responding to there, from there. What if we created some space and moved into the part of ourselves that can see them, oh, as hurt brothers and sisters. And decided, well, we're going to respond from our deepest wisdom.

We're going to respond from a place of love. Just that shift of responding instead of from trauma, responding from a place of wisdom. Whatever that looks like for you is the shift I'm inviting people into. I hate to be kind of, it seems almost vulgar to ask it, but is there an end game for it? Is the result when you, is there a mission accomplished sign at any point? Is there a, is there a light at the end of the tunnel? Is there, what does, what does success look like in an environment like this? What's the achievement?

What does success look like in an environment like this? What's the achievement? The vision is a beloved community. The vision is a healthy, caring, multiracial democracy where you see my child as yours and I see yours as mine. The vision is a planet where human beings have learned how to live sustainably with each other and with the earth. The vision is a world of love and liberation and safety. And Craig, I may not live, you may not live,

we may not live to see that. And I understand that, that my ancestors labored and sacrificed for freedoms that they could not have imagined that I get to live into now. And so as much as I want to see that world, as much as I want to see it, I know that my sacred task is to show up to do my part in the labor. And if I can do- I get it. I understand. It's like, there's a lovely phrase. I'm probably messing it up, but it is the mark of civilization that a person would

plant a tree knowing that they would never stand in the shade of it. That's it. That's it. Yeah, I get it. Can the planting be joyful? What I've discovered, like, have for me 20 years as an activist I only knew how to push I only knew how to ground my bones to the earth I was always comparing my suffering to the people I was serving so I was never

Worth worthy enough to care for like I I had by the time my babies were born It was a 2016 election season I had it I didn't hate violence was skyrocketing and I'm like, what am I doing? They're growing up in a country more dangerous for them than it was for me. I had an, I had it and hate violence was skyrocketing. And I'm like, what am I doing? They're growing up in a country more dangerous for them than it was for me. I had an all out crisis. I only knew to use your metaphor, how to plant out of desperation, how to plant miserably.

You know? And because I didn't know how to love, I didn't know how to operate with love for myself. So I, that's when I spent a year in the rainforest. That was another pivotal moment in my life. And many indigenous cultures believe that the rainforest is like the womb of the earth. Like it's warm and wet and safe and generative. And I was able to breathe for the first time. The midwife says, breathe and push and then breathe again. There's like a cadence, a rhythm to sustain one's energy in any long labor. And I finally learned how to breathe.

And in other words, I finally learned how to, how to love my own body, my own heart, my own mind, as much as I was putting out into the world. And that's where I developed, I wrote my first book and I developed this compass, the revolutionary love compass as a tool, a practical tool. What does it do that there's practical tool? I'm interested in this. So how would I use the, this, if I found myself in, in a jeopardized by my own resentment, how would I use the, the revolutionarily love compass?

I want to put it in your hand right now. All right. So imagine that you're holding it. It's an actual legendary artist. Shepherd Ferry has actually created a new rend're holding it. Because it's an actual show. Legendary artist Shepard Fairey has actually created a new rendition of it. It's so beautiful. People can find it online. RevolutionaryLove.org.

So it's a compass. Revolutionary love is the choice to labor for others, opponents, and ourselves. And at any point, you can point it to the person you're practicing loving. So let's say you have an other in front of you. Craig, you're my other. I'm your other. Oh, okay. That practice is called see no stranger.

And it begins with wonder. And it's like you said, right? How quick we are to judge. We all carry implicit bias within a split second before conscious thought. Our minds decide whether the person in front of us belongs to them or us. And who we see is one of us. Shapes whose stories we hear, what grief we let in, what policies we support and what leaders we elect, right?

Demagogues, demagogues get elected because they succeed in shutting down the, the ability to wonder about people that they are dehumanizing. And so wonder. It's a real challenge. I mean, because like, if I, if I take the example of, look, it's seven o'clock in the morning, you're in an airport and there you, you, you're next to someone. In my case, it's usually a really annoying gentleman in cargo shorts and flip flops who's drinking alcohol at 7 a.m.

But God bless him. It's up to him, but I, it's like, get the hell away from me. And I, I can't help but judge an individual like that. And I don't, you know, it's interesting though, even as I talk about it though, I started to go, oh, lying up, you know, what's the big deal? Ooh, there's another voice in you. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

The dialogue's going all the time. Yeah. You mean duality, you know, I mean, it is, it is going all the time, but the thing is it comes in equal measure. And what I'm fascinated by the idea of, for me, it comes in equal measure. I don't know if it comes in equal measure for everyone, but I, my, my snap decisions about people are my, look, I'm not as angry as I was when I was a young man. I'm just not, but you know, I've had a lot of therapy and I've been sober for a long time, but I still, I can make snap decisions about people, which it's almost like I'm not in control of the situation.

Is that what you talk about when you're talking about the... Yeah. It's like, it's like someone else suddenly took the controls and made me a Jare. Yeah. And that's okay. That's okay. Right. Because it's not, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because it's not the first response that we're responsible for. It's the second response. We're all breathing in the stereotypes. We're all being wired by the us and thems in this culture, you know? And so we can either go with what has been done to us or we can flow it down and say, why, why, why did I respond that way? It's like what you just said, I'll lighten up. I wonder if that guy like is going through a hard time in his life.

I wonder if he's really tired. I wonder if he's on his way to see his kid. You know, like I wonder, I wonder, really simple. It's very, it's very useful. I have used it myself. This is a thing that I do again. It's on airplanes. Usually if I'm sat next to someone, first of all, if I'm sitting in the seat first,

then the seat next to me actually really kind of belongs to me. And I don't really like the fact that someone else is sitting in that seat because I was here and now you turn up. Sometimes I just put my tea on that center tray and I'm like, you let me get comfortable. And I glare at them and I'm like, Oh, suddenly you're, well, Johnny come lately. I've been sitting in this seat for upwards of three minutes. And then I forced myself to say hello and, and try and be nice. And I, cause sometimes I get the same thing back, you know, which is like you say a mirroring as a hello and, and then sometimes it goes really badly.

And then you end up talking to someone for seven hours and hearing all about their life and times that I didn't want that either, you know, that happened to me yesterday on my way home. I put my tea in the center. I'm so tired. I mean, the event was amazing, but I'm so tired. Put my tea in the- Right.

And then, you know who sat next to me? An Ethiopian Orthodox Christian Bishop. Nice. Takes his seat next to me in the robes with the cap. See, I would love that. I would love that. I'd be like, tell me all about that. Because I've got to know what's going on there.

It's great. We ended up talking for like three hours. Presented by Capital One. The biggest headliners in live music will be taking over T-Mobile Arena, Las Vegas. Plus some special surprises and moments you are not going to want to miss. Stream only on Hulu. The iHeartRadio Music Festival. And listen on iHeartRadio. The most anticipated live music event of the year.

This Friday and Saturday. Starting at 10.30 p.m PM Eastern, 7.30 Pacific. Hello, everyone. I am Lacey Lamar. And I'm Amber Ruffin, a better Lacey Lamar. Boo. Okay, everybody, we have exciting news to share. We're back with season two of the Amber and Lacey, Lacey and Amber Show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network.

You thought you had fun last season? Well, you were right. And you should tune in today for new fun segments like Sister Court and listening to Lacey's steamy DMs. We've got new and exciting guests like Michael Beach. That's my husband. Daphne Spring, Daniel Thrasher, Peppermint, Morgan Jay, and more. You gotta watch us.

No, you mean you have to listen to us. I mean, you can still watch us, but you gotta listen. Like if you're watching us, you have to tell us. Like if you're out the window, you have to say, hey, I'm watching you outside of the window. Just, you know what? Listen to the Amber and Lacey Lacey and Amber show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi everyone, it's me, Katie Couric. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Hi everyone. It's me, Katie Couric. Have you heard about my newsletter called Body and Soul? It has everything you need to know about your physical and mental health.

Personally, I'm overwhelmed by the wellness industry. I mean, there's so much information out there about lifting weights, pelvic floors, cold plunges, anti-aging. So I launched Body and Soul to share doctor-approved insights about all of that and more. We're tackling everything. Serums to use through menopause, exercises that improve your brain health, and how to naturally lower your blood pressure and cholesterol. Oh, and if you're as sore as I am from pickleball, we'll help you with that too. Most importantly, it's information you can trust. Everything is vetted by experts

at the top of their field, and you can write into them directly to have your questions answered. So sign up for Body and Soul at katikurrik.com slash body and soul. Taking better care of yourself is just a click away. It's interesting though, cause when somebody has, I am interested in, in people, particularly people who, who have a faith, which is, uh, identifiable and, and, uh, and, and faithful, you know, in the sense that, you know, I have quite a lot of atheist friends and I, I had, I'm, I'm envious of the, the, the amount of faith they have that they're correct. I, I, I'm like, wow, you really, you're the most faith driven person I've ever met.

You a hundred percent believe you're right. I've never had that in my life. Now with what you're doing, you've really got to believe. Do you, do you doubt? Do you ever doubt sometimes that you think, what am I doing here? I don't know if it's a bully. I feel like I'm going to, I'm going to crack this open for a minute. Because I think it's a Western construct to think of religion or faith as a belief that

you hold in your mind as opposed to a way of being in the world. Even your first question when you're like, are you still sick? I was like, I don't know what else to be. I don't know how else to be in the world than through making love my compass. And in the Sikh tradition, and maybe there's something about the Sikh tradition

being as a mystical tradition, it's a young tradition. So it's, it's a tradition that we do not proselytize. We do not believe that our way is the better way even. Or the only way. The only way. Right. See that's, I think any, any group of people that say, look, this is what we do,

but it's not the only way to do it. Immediately you have my attention. I'm like, ah, okay. Well, that seems reasonable to me. Yeah. Let's start with the reasonability and what we do, but it's not the only way to do it. Immediately you have my attention. I'm like, okay, well that seems reasonable to me. Yeah. Let's start with the reasonability and then we'll get to inspiration. Then I'll try to get you to be inspired because the, the invitation is like wherever you are, whatever path you are on is a path where you can awaken. Even like the atheists are talking about, if you're inspired by poetry

and music and humanity, you can, whatever tools that you have, can be a tool to awaken, to transcend, to taste, to wonder, to become a sage. And then from that, because the underlying at all is our connection that in the Sikh tradition the belief is that the core problem to all of our crises, social, economic, political, is disconnection. Disconnection from the earth, disconnection from each other, disconnection from ourselves. And so whatever path that gets you to return to a sense of connectedness in your body, in your heart, in your spirit,

will return you to the ability, the capacity to love. Okay. So let me ask you this because you're a human being. You're, uh, you're on a book tour. You're tired. I know what a book tour is like and it is hard and you are tired. I'm, I'm sure you're tired and you have young children.

You're tired. and that you are tired. I'm sure you're tired and you have young children, you're tired. Is there ever a point in your life where you think this is, do you get discouraged? If not necessarily like doubt, but discouraged. Do you think this hell is insurmountable? Yeah. This goes back to why I reacted so strongly when you said the word positive early. Right.

It's interesting to me. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, oh, okay. Because my, sometimes I feel deeply hopeless. Right. You know, I put my babies to sleep, I pick up my phone and I'm scrolling and I'm, my algorithm delivers me to the front lines of Gaza where I'm looking into the shut eyes

of children who look like my own. And I just, the despair, I mean, last 10 months, the despair has been so deep, so deep. And the hopelessness, for me, hope has become like a feeling that ebbs and flows, that waxes and wanes. Sometimes it's really big and bright and luminous, like a full moon. And you would say that's really positive. And then sometimes it's a crescent,

and sometimes it's just not there at all. And I have come to understand that what matters is the work that my hands do in the dark. Can I keep myself going? Can I wake up in the morning. Can I keep myself going? Can I wake up in the morning and still give my kids breakfast, even when I... And what animates me to keep doing that is joy.

Your podcast, Joy. In the Sikh tradition, joy is translated as Jardhikala, which literally means ever rising spirits, even in darkness, ever rising joy. It's not about the past, the future at all. It's about the present, now, here, now, can I show up with a buoyant energy in my body to keep moving my hands, to keep moving my voice, to keep moving my body in the world, to play my role in the sacred labor that is before me, whatever it is. I think that's beautiful.

I think it's a wonderful, embraceable philosophy. It's interesting though that it has echoes of so many, like you say, so many other. I know so little about the Sikh tradition. I know so little about Eastern religion. My background is in Western, mostly Judeo-Christian religions and I'm fascinated by them, but the more mysterious they are when you look at them. And what I mean by that is if you look at the, you know, Moses on Mount Sinai or the origin of Alexandria, uh, then early Christianity

and the Christian mystics, basically it's the mysticism that I find fascinating. And there was a, there's something you said about, about the, uh, the origin story, which I found fascinating, which is about the, the silence and the quiet that the, uh, I saw it's something on YouTube years ago. When one of my kids was very small, it was just, uh, we're looking at this thing about the planets and it was, you know, outer space and the planets. And it was, you know, some, uh, science program from Canada or something. And, um, but basically it said the universe is made up mostly of black holes and mostly black and black holes, mostly it's silence and most of the universe is

quiet and nothing is happening and that is the, uh, that, and it is in the silence, it's in the silence. It's in the silence. It seems to tie in to the mysticism of the religions I know. And I know nothing about yours, but, but the, the idea that, that God is in the silence, that the, like the, like the mysticism and the, the peace is in that feeling of, like nothingness even, if if you like almost like oblivion and a personal level I saw that when I was drinking you know when I when I was alcoholically drinking I was seeking oblivion I was seeking nothingness and I wonder if that wonder first of all if

that's my wound but also where does that, that nothingness come from? That just that quiet, peaceful, nothing's really going on. You know that feeling you get when your kids are asleep and the house is asleep? Yeah. Everybody's asleep and you're awake, but you're nearly asleep and the children are sleeping. That quietness. I love that. That quietness.

I love that. I love that. And that, I think, is the. That's the center of the universe for me. Is that in any way related to what you're talking about? Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I feel I'm beginning to understand it a little now. No I'm fascinated by it because when I said the word positive and you did react quite

unexpectedly for me, I was like, oh, I didn't expect you to say, no, I don't see it like that. I expected you to say, yes, I am very positive, but that's good. You know, that's good for me. How would you describe it then if you don't describe it as positive? Hmm. Joyful, powerful, yes. Fierce, alive, wise. And maybe let me go back to that compass for a moment.

This compass, you might appreciate this actually, because all of these wisdom traditions call us to love. We've heard it for thousands of years, but why aren't we practicing it? Why hasn't it transformed the world already? And so I was obsessed with this question of how, how, how do we put it into practice as ordinary people? And we got together with a team of researchers

in neuroscience and ethics and history and psychology and identify these 10 core practices, which I began to see as points on a compass. So this compass is actually an evidence-based tool. And this is gonna come back to you because we realized, I realized realized that the problem in this culture is that people think about love as a feeling. Like you fall in love. And certainly when my child was placed on my arms, my son the first time, I was shaking and sobbing. And I was like, this is love. I'm falling in love. I'm falling in love. And I was, I was falling.

But my mother then opened up her bag, took out her doll and Joel and began to feed me. Like, you just saw her do, like feeding her baby while I'm feeding my baby. Like she's never stopped laboring for me. My mother has known what took me a long time to get, that love is sweet labor. It's fierce, it's demanding, it's imperfect,

it's life-giving. And that if love is labor, then love contains the whole range of human emotions. Joy is the gift of love. Grief is the price of love. Rage is the force we harness to protect that which we love. And when we feel like we've reached our limit, wonder is what returns us to love. All of these emotions, would you grieve, rage, you know, to push, to listen? People might not think of them as positive emotions. Sometimes they don't feel good, right? They don't feel good. And that's why we like try to numb ourselves. I don't know if that's part of why you reach for the bottle. Like it's hard to feel, it's

hard to feel all parts of ourselves. It takes courage, right? But can we tend parts of ourselves like we would our own beloved child and say, oh my love, this grief is welcome. This rage is welcome. Let me accompany you. Let me wonder about you. You are a part of me. I do not yet know. And that wondering, accompanying is the process of alchemizing that energy into courageous action and into how we respond. And so that's what I'm inviting people into. Revolutionary love is like a way, it's a framework for being human together, fully alive together, fully in community together with all parts of ourselves, in here and out there. I'm very intrigued and delighted to have spent some time with you.

I wish you so much luck with this. I don't think you need luck. I think you're doing the right thing. It's not that you need my permission or even my endorsement, but it's, but I, I'm fascinated by it and I, I feel like at the risk of offending you, I feel like it is a force for good than it is positive. And I, I am- I'll take force for good.

I'll take that. I'll take that all the way. It is though. It is a force for good, but I, in my own, I'm just kind of, I try to wrap this up a little bit, but in my own kind of cynicism, I fear for you a little bit because when you start, it's like that thing that you said earlier, you know, when, when you go out there, spreading the message of love, it's going to make a lot of people angry. Yeah.

A lot of people angry. Uh, especially cause they will not believe you. Yeah. I know that. I know you do. Uh, I guess I'm just, I'm just saying it to hear myself say it. I think. No, I had to go back into my deep into my own ancestors wisdom about this.

And we're getting on a bus to 45 cities in the middle of this election season where there have been assassination attempts, where people are marching the streets hoods off, you know, with the Nazi bit. Why am I going into the hot winds? I'm going into the storm with this message, with this medicine, with this antidote. And it's never been safe. And every night for centuries, our sick ancestors have sung a song called Sohila. And in Sohila, we sing of death as a wedding day, as a return to the beloved.

I hope I live to be a very old woman. Craig, we'll both be old on our rocking chairs. You're not that much older than me, are you? Oh, I think I'm shockingly older than you. But I moisturize deeply. There you go. Keep doing that. I want, I do. I'm seemingly older than you, but I moisturize deeply. There you go. Keep doing that.

I want, I do. I want to live as old as my grandparents. And even if I don't get to, even if this message puts me in harm's way, I know that when I leave this earth, I'll be returning to the oneness that always is the silence that you speak of. And there is joy in that too whenever that day comes. It should be so. It's lovely to spend some time with you, Valerie. I wish you have a good time on that.

Don't forget to have a good time. I'll have a good time. You'll have a good time. Thank you, brother. And please, I feel terrible because your mom made your breakfast and you haven't eaten it yet. So go and eat your breakfast and say hi to your mom and I'll wish you luck and I'll speak to you soon. Thank you. Love you.

Bye. We're just days away from our 2024 iHeartRadio Music Festival, presided by Capital One. The biggest headliners in live music will be taking over T-Mobile Arena, Las Vegas. Plus, some special surprises and moments you are not going to want to miss. Stream only on Hulu. The iHeartRadio Music Festival. And listen on iHeartRadio. The most anticipated live music event of the year. This Friday and Saturday, starting at 10.30 PM Eastern, 7.30 Pacific.

We think of Franklin as the dodging dude flying a kite in the rain. Benjamin Franklin is our subject for a new season with Walter Isaacson. He's the most successful self-made business person in America. A printer, a scientist, founding father, but maybe not the guy we think we know. Franklin casts his lot on the side of revolution and it's another thing that splits the family apart. Listen to On Benjamin Franklin with Walter Isaacson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey everyone, Jake Storielli here from John Boy Media. I want to tell you about my podcast, Wake and Jake. I've been a sports nut my whole life and there's nothing I love more than talking about it. If you're a sports fan, Wake and Jake is the place for you covering all the hot topics from the sports world. A lot of baseball, a lot of postseason coverage, mock drafts, awards, guest interviews, all of it. New episodes every Monday and Wednesday. Come watch along on the Wake and Jake

YouTube channel or listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.