Judge John Hodgman - 12 Angry Birds

Episode Date: September 19, 2013

Is Anna a gaming addict?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, 12 angry birds. Anna brings the case against her boyfriend David. David says Anna is addicted to playing electronic games to her own detriment. Anna says the games are simply recreational and relaxing and that she can quit anytime she wants. Is Anna a gaming addict? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Plunk your magic twanger, Judgey. Hiya, kids. Hiya, hiya, hiya. Now, kiddies, as you know, it's my job as the bailiff to keep order in this court and to occasionally shut pie holes, but it's also my job to... Wear salami on your head. To wear salami on my head, exactly. I have a special bailiff's headdress of salami,

and in fact my badge is made of salami too, and... Hold on. My badge is not made of salami, judgy. It's made of mustard. It's a mustard badge. Exactly. A delicious smear of mustard on my uniform in the shape of a star. And when it's the time for me to swear the litigants in, I go ahead. Kiss them with your sandwich lips. Yes, I get a big, I eat a big old sandwich and I just kiss them on the lips.

It can be any kind of sandwich, but my favorite is head salami and badge mustard. Oh, judgy. Judgy, you're just making mischief. You're making macaroni salad. And the secret is vinegar. You have to let the noodles soak in nice white vinegar and then, and only then, can you... Swear them in, Bailiff Jesse. David and Anna, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?

Yes, absolutely. Yes, I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he prefers, rather than to use a cellular telephone, to use an analog telephone, which he brings with him everywhere? Yes, most certainly. Very well, Judge Hodgman. Yes, most certainly. Very well, Judge Hodgman. You may be seated. Anna and David, for an immediate summary judgment in your favor, can either of you name what I consider to be the extremely esoteric cultural reference that I forced Bailiff Jesse to make with me as I entered the courtroom?

You will not know. I dare you to know. These people are foreigners. I know, that's why. Even if you were, Anna, what country were you born in? Sweden. Well, and did you spend your childhood there? I did.

You will not know the answer. Do you know the answer? I don't. David, what country did you grow up in? Here in the United Kingdom. And you are in the United Kingdom right now, both of you? At this moment, yes. First of all, thank you for taking a moment from your ceaseless travel to speak to us from across the sea.

That's quite all right. And you will not know the answer to this cultural trivia question that I have posed, will you? No, I don't. Well, it reminds me a little bit of something from a computer game that might have made me guess it, which was the beginning of Day of the Tentacle. No. What is that? Day of the Tentacle. No. What is that? Day of the Tentacle? I'm pretty sure it's a real computer game.

Yeah, even I know about that. You know about that one? This is what it's about, isn't it, Anna? I think Day of the Tentacle is one of those adventure games made by the guy who made Escape from Monkey Island. They have a lot of genial, lightweight jokes. Oh, okay. So he could have been, there could be an allusion to this. There could be an allusion to this in the computer game, Maniac Mansion 2, Day of the Tentacle. There may, there could be. I was referring to, quoting, paraphrasing, from a children's television program from 1955 to 1960 called Andy's Gang. Andy's Gang, in which host Andy Devine was frequently plagued by the mischief-making of a character called Froggy the Gremlin.

Whenever Andy said, plunk your magic twanger, Froggy, he would appear... Psychedelic. And he would frequently... And he was just... And he was an... It wasn't even a puppet. It was just a rubber doll shaped like a frog. Why he was a gremlin, I guess, because he was magic.

And he can control minds. So various adult characters would come on to give lectures to the children about what they do. They could be a beekeeper or a police officer or a cowboy or anything. And Froggy would constantly undermine what they were saying by changing their train of thought and suggesting that they should use that honeycomb to comb their hair and the adult would do it and this is hilarious to children and oh they would laugh and laugh now why was i referencing andy's gang this esoteric piece of children's popular culture from the 19 late 1950s you don't know the answer to that either because it was referenced impossibly in a song from the 1970s called Froggy's Lament, which was a song by the novelty song duo Bruckner and Garcia on the album Pac-Man Fever pertaining to Frogger. And when you were a child in the 70s, you would listen to this Frogger-based song and you would

be enjoying all of the references to the video game Frogger-based song, and you would be enjoying all of the references to the video game Frogger. But every now and then, Bruckner or Garcia, I'm not sure which one, would suddenly go, plunk your magic twanger, Froggy, or hiya, kids. And for years, I was like, why are they saying that? Until finally, someone pointed out to me, I don't know what weird teacher I had in elementary school, that that was a reference to this weird TV show from the 50s called Andy's Gang, itself a successor to the radio for the television show Smiling Ed McConnell or Smiling Ed McConnell's Gang, because Smiling Ed McConnell had originated these characters, but then he died of a heart attack and Andy Devine

took over. Now, the whole reason that this happened was that I wanted to use the song Pac-Man Fever to open this case, but I couldn't because we already did that a couple of years ago for another video game related case. And Pac-Man Fever, of course, was Bruckner and Garcia's groundbreaking song about Pac-Man addiction, which is indeed what this case is about. But I couldn't use it because i already used it and then i remembered frogger and then i remembered this weird tv show then i went on the internet to find out about the tv show i watched videos of this weird fat dude wearing a mark twain slash uh colonel sanders tie talking to this uh frog rubber doll I thought I had passed out for a while

because it was so odd that maybe I had dreamed it but then I verified that it was true and then I went on another weird sub-tangent down another rat hole of the internet to discover that Andy Devine also did an act with a live cat named Midnight and a live mouse called Squeaky, where he would force them to play music while they were essentially tied down. Like, Midnight was tied to a bench and forced to play a child's piano by someone off-screen moving his paws around, just like Keyboard Cat from the internet. And suddenly I flashed back to another time when someone sent me a tape of weird public off-screen moving his paws around just like keyboard cat from the internet and suddenly i flashed back to another time when someone sent me a tape of weird public access cable in the in the mid-1990s from california and there was this bit of this fat man torturing these live animals and i

had no idea the context at all and it haunted me forever and i thought it was the most terrifying thing and every now and then at night, I would think of Midnight and Squeaky and become too depressed to fall asleep all throughout the 90s, never making the connection until this very day that they were both derived from the same creepy children's television program.

And the lesson from this is the internet is addictive and distracting. And that indeed is what brings us to the case today. Anna, it is put before this court that you are addicted to casual games. How do you respond to this? Well, actually, I would like to clarify that it is me who has brought this case against David. Excuse me. that it is me who has brought this case against David to... Excuse me.

Yes, exactly. To ask him to stop calling me an addict to these computer games. And it's interesting that you should mention this television program because I think a very important feature of it is the importance of words and their sort of magical power. And if you think about it in sort of the 17th and the 18th century, when people were not yet, a lot of people weren't able to read, for instance, words had a very important quality. If you slandered someone, you could be challenged to a duel, or you could just be killed, so what? And for instance, if someone called you a thief...

Wait, are you challenging David to a duel? I'm pretty sure she said she's going to kill her boyfriend, so what? It sounded like that. I'm pretty sure she said she's going to kill her boyfriend, so what? It sounded like that. Well, I mean, if this had been in the 18th century, I probably would have. So you're saying it's not fair to call Froggy a gremlin just because he's a plastic frog? No, because then Froggy will believe he is a gremlin. And he will take over that.

So if you call someone an addict, perhaps they then start to act as an addict. So you are saying that David has slandered you with the label of casual gaming addict. Exactly. And therefore you

have no recourse but to A, throw down the glove and challenge him to pistols at dawn, or actually become an addict and just become a pallid, pale video game addict who's spent all of her money on video games and now you're forced out into the street to peddle for money so that you can buy more apps. David, why are you doing this to your girlfriend? Well, yeah, I perhaps hadn't thought of my accusation in quite such a profound context of abuse. I think that maybe what Anna is saying would be true if there was a situation whereby she didn't play rather a lot of computer games. And I started out of nowhere calling her an addict. And then she began playing a lot. I appreciate your British dramatic understatement of rather a lot. What does rather a lot describe to me the behavior that I am to deem either addictive or non-addictive? I would say spending a fair bit of time each day playing.

And I think maybe a part of my very anecdotal evidence is the slight kind of behavioral effects of being very absorbed in computer games. kind of behavioral effects of being very absorbed in computer games. But I suppose for the purposes of this case, I'm defining rather a lot by what I think are a kind of, I don't know. It sounds to me like you're defining rather a lot as somewhat of a fair bit. Well, it's rather a lot, I guess, in this case, is an amount backed up by some what to me seems slightly alarming statistics of Anna's play in, I suppose, the various games under consideration here. Well, one of them is a game defined by some kind of malevolent avians that one has to do battle with by flinging other living creatures.

Actually, I think you fling the You fling the avians. The perturbed avians, I think, would be more appropriate. Perturbed avians. And the other one is a game whose workings I'm not really familiar with, but I

called in the short statement i've i prepared for the court i called sweet squash i can't i don't know what that is and i don't want to know but let's get let's get down to hard numbers squeak squeak squash squeak, squash. What, how much time, what, what, what is the behavior that bothers you specifically? Um, well, Anna comes home from work. Do you guys cohabitate? Uh, yes. Yeah. I should say here that in a way it's not the behavior per se, or even it's not playing computer games or not, or not even playing a lot of them that concerns me. It's Anna's refusal to concede that she might be addicted to these games that seems wrong. I see. So you don't care that she sits at home and doesn't pay any attention to you as she plays computer games all night long.

You just want her to admit that she's an addict. Yes, actually, I suppose that's kind of true. I wouldn't begrudge anybody kind of, what I, you know, essentially, relatively speaking, harmless pleasures in comparison to some other addictive things that one might think of. But I think that refusing to say that one is addicted to things which are designed to be so compelling. You don't want to fight a war on drugs. You want to support people's habits by giving them social services and counseling. Exactly, yes. Okay, yeah.

You want to keep them from a life of crime by offering it up freely in cafes. Yeah, the basis of a civilized society. I understand. May I interject? You may. crime by by offering it up freely in cafes yeah the basis of a civilized society i understand may i interject you may do you mind while you make your next point if i play a popular computer uh or it's a popular a popular uh crossword board game that has been made into an application for my iphone not at all because that comes to where my interjection is about. Because... Create a new game. Yes, because what David is saying

is that I can't do... that I'm not listening and interacting with him whilst playing the games. Whereas I have proven that I can repeat back to him exactly what he has told me whilst playing. Repeat back to him. Yeah, exactly. what he has told me while playing. Repeat back to him?

Yeah, exactly. Exactly what he told you while playing. Yeah, I think it's possible that that might be the kind of defense mechanism one can train oneself in. Could even be seen as a kind of, I don't know, like a grotesque replica of conversation. A grotesque replica of conversation? Go on. You know, kind of developing the ability to... Oh! Specific techniques or strategies to appear normal.

Buxomer. Can you believe that? That I could have gotten Buxomer. B-U-X-O-M-E-R for 76 points. What were we talking about? You see, I'm not like that. Anna, do you really, do you really, so, all right, Anna, talk to me. You, you, when you wrote in, you mentioned that you, you multitask in your, in your daily

life anyway. You are a translator, a PhD student. Yes. A part-time antiquetime assistant antique dealer, a detective, a spy, a Zeppelin pilot? No. So what are you getting your PhD in? Buzz marketing of games?

No, it is a joint PhD in the Scandinavian department and the translation department. So it's a literary translation type PhD. Oh, okay. In English, can you describe that for me? Good night forever. Good night. All right. And you also work in the antique biz? Yes. You sell old Atari 2600s? No, not necessarily. Does the antique business mean that you pawn all of your old jewelry so that you can buy more apps? Is that what that means?

I wish, perhaps. I hadn't thought of that. I mean, I could get some serious money if I pawn the stuff we sell. What do you sell? Well, we sell Chinese and Japanese porcelain from the 18th century and earlier. Old stuff. Old stuff. That's the product that's okay to buzz market, I suppose. Yeah, well, that stuff sells itself. It doesn't need buzz marketing.

Exactly. I hear Ming is merciless. Good night forever. It's good to have you back, Bailiff Jesse. Sort of. So, and then you get home and you fire up a

solitaire or a spider solitaire or another one of these popular casual games on a device? Yes. Like on a laptop computer or a tablet solitaire or another one of these popular casual games on a device? Yes. Like on a laptop computer or a tablet-type computer or a phone? Both a phone and a computer. All right. And then David is there attempting to make some imitation of food for you,

and you're just, you go, I can't talk right now. I've got to play this game. No, I would say that I do talk to him, but he perhaps would say that I don't. I mean, he will continue talking for a long time, and maybe one doesn't take anything. And you'll just repeat words that he said automatically in order to give the impression of having a conversation, when in fact it's just you playing the game.

Repeating back sort of, you know, enough words to give the appearance of having listened. No, I disagree strongly with that. I can make conclusions. I can make interjections, additions to whatever conversation is being had. Here's where I kind of am surprised by this case, because I predicted that Anna would be incredibly defensive

about the use of the word addict to the point that she would start making completely specious arguments about slander in medieval times. And that is true. And that is true. But here's where, i'm not sure if you guys are familiar with the the the united states pastime called bases ball but in bases ball four strikes and you're out and here's my fourth strike no excuse me that doesn't make any sense at all i had three hits and a and then a strike so i go so i go immediately to the hoop, which is to say, I mispredicted this.

I figured we'd be coming in here and David would be, that Anna would be defensive about the word addict. And David would say, I have no, I don't care about the word addict. I'm just trying to point out

that Anna is playing computer games when we're, when we're supposedly having some time together, which is frankly, David, I am in your court to use another video gaming sports metaphor, right? But you are saying that you don't care whether or not you have a conversation with her at all.

You want her to admit that she is addicted. All right. Give me the evidence. How is she addicted to these past times? I think that in answer to that, we have some kind of numerical, I mean, some numerical record of time. Sorry, I'm just finding this on a computer screen. Oh, now who's the addict? I'm right here, David.

Talk to me. Get your eyes out of your phone and talk to me. Okay. Well, I'm now looking at a screen grab from a couple of days ago. So the numbers might have got rather worse since then. And this is recording the arachnid card game. And so this is in the last sort of six months or so, I suppose. And so the statistics here tell me, this is from Anna's computer,

that games played, 564. Games won, 33. Win percentage, 5.85%. Total moves, so total card drags, 38,194. And this is the number that seems slightly alarming, I suppose, arguably whether this is too much time spent playing on a computer or not, but which I think would certainly classify an addict perhaps which is total time um six days one hour 40 minutes and five seconds before we go on david what is your profession are you a a statistician a liar or a

damn liar because you're just throwing numbers at me 38,194. Six days total playtime out of how many days? Well, this is over approximately... Does six days mean that she's played one game every... Like, she's logged at least one game that day? No, no, no. Or her total accrued playing time amounts to six days? Her total accrued playing time over the approximately six months that Anna has had the particular computer.

Six days over six months? Yeah. And so, if I can read just one or two more numbers, that means the... No. No. I don't need you to read any more. Okay. Unless you're going to analyze these numbers now. I just don't want to hear more numbers.

Six days out of six months. Have you done the calculations of how many hours per day that is? No, I haven't calculated that, no. Anna, I know you're from Sweden, but are you a normal human being who sleeps? Yes. You're not a Swedish let the right one in vampire, are you? No. Was that from Sweden or was that also from Finland?

No, it is from Sweden. Oh, I got one right! But have you seen the Swedish version? Of course. I haven't seen the American version. I've only seen the Swedish version. And it's fantastic. It's really good.

But I'll tell you something. That kid lived in that uh in that uh that uh apartment complex right if i lived in that apartment complex in the winter i would become a video game addict for sure exactly but that's how we live in sweden that's how we live in stockholm right in stockholm but now but now but now you're in the mediterranean paradise of London. Yeah, much further south. Where are you in the UK, actually? London? Yes, in East London, yes. To be specific.

All right, to be specific, how many hours a night do you sleep? Six to seven. Right, so six hours. So let's say in six months there are an average of 180 days. Well, it would be one 24-hour, 24 hours worth of gaming in each month. Continuous playing time. No, not 24 hours. You're not giving me the information that I want. I want to know the average hours that she plays per day. Right.

So 24. So six times 24, we got to do this because someone yelled at me for, for, for turning, for turning away from math and disgust in a, in a, in an earlier podcast.

So, so it's 144 hours, 180 days. And let's say, let's say a wake time, right? So 24 minus six is 18. I think I got it right.

I got it right. So three, 3,240 hours of awake time per month, 144 divided by 3,240. So that's point, did I do that right? Wait a minute. 180 days times 18, 3,240 hours. times 18, 3,240 hours. 144 divided by 3,240.

So that's a percentage of 4%. 4% of your waking day. So that's 4% of Anna's waking time spent playing one of the three games that we're... That's nothing. games that she plays. That seems to be a relatively high percentage. But would you say that the 4% of her waking hours that she spends playing the generic games, Spider Solitaire, is one third that she spends three times that amount of time factoring in the other games. Spider Solitaire is one third that she

spends three times that amount of time factoring in the other games? That's a good question. I don't have the precise numbers for that. I would say that that's perhaps a little bit less per day than the time spent playing the

perturbed avian game. The perturbed dinosaur descendants. Yes. It goes in ebbs and flows right yeah i think so i think anna would concede that there are perhaps certain moments of of real exuberance with the with the avian throwing game when a new a new set of levels of levels is released. Yeah. And that kind of thing. So, so, so that one is perhaps represents a slightly less consistent,

um, charts than the, than the card game. Anna, would you say that you, based on my, what would you, what would you estimate would be the amount of hours per day you spend on

games, playing games. Maybe one hour. One hours per day. That's about, that's basically, that's a little bit more than 4% of your waking hours. Do you dispute one hour per day? No.

Well, of course you don't dispute your own finding david do you dispute one hour per day no i would i had a guess that would sound about right yeah on average and this was and this was the number that you were going to use to shock me exactly an hour per day do you have children no are. Are you married? No. What are your ages? Three, three. I'm 31. Three, three? Yes.

What are you trying? Are you gaslighting me? Three, three. 33. Is that how it's said in Swedish? Yes. How do you say your age in Swedish? 33.

Not tria tria? No, that's true, actually. Yeah, right. Three, three. You know how confused I am about numbers right now to begin with? Now you're going to start saying three, three to me? Yeah, no, I'm sorry about that. So Anna, well, David, does Anna, does Anna, let me ask you these questions.

Does Anna fail to feed and clothe herself properly because of her addiction? No, exactly no. That would be an exaggeration. Does she disappear for weeks at a time to go to underground casual gaming parlors in Hong Kong? No. Maybe something similar happens virtually. Do you ever catch her hiding gaming from you? No. No. Does she ever lie about gaming to you?

Well, not that I know of. By default, I haven't sort of tested. I mean, I haven't tested these numbers against my own observations. You've never caught her in one of her many lies about her casual gaming? Not yet, no. And what time of day does she usually game? Well, I think to an extent before bed, so before sleeping. In the evening time? Anna, do you ever casually game in the morning? Yes, I usually like to take one game in when I wake up. Oh, really?

Like a pipe by the bedside. Do you ever go to work with casual gaming on your breath? I would say that I do, yes. Maybe David is right. Do you have any evidence to present that you are

not a casual gaming addict? Yes, I do. Please present it. Well, for example, I have undertaken an internet addiction test. Is that a questionnaire? It's a questionnaire. And what is the provenance of this Internet Addictive Test? Now, let me...

It is a study. It's by a woman who... Now, let me just see. Where is it here? Is it sponsored by the gaming industry in some way? No, I don't think it's sponsored by the gaming industry as such. Let me just say. But it is she has written a book apparently which is featured on the page this is the name of the website.com the center for internet addiction

your source since 1995 oh it's someone who offers counseling services exactly yeah to internet Yeah. To internet addicts. All right, let's go. Where is it? Assessments? This is a terrible website. I'll tell you, this will cure me of my internet addiction in five seconds. What? Facts? No.

Self-tests. All right, let's go. Cybersexual addiction quiz. Internet addiction test. It's rather a addiction test. It's rather a long test. I know it is because you know what? I've already been to this website and I've taken the test. Do you know what? I can't

stop taking it. I'm just looking for an opportunity to take it again. What time did you do? I did 2.07. It was timed? Yeah. I didn't see my stats. What?

That's the kind of statistic an addict accrues from computer activity, I would say. It's true. You want constant new and fresh stats. A target to aim for next time. A thrill of fresh stats. However, I would like to point out... So the internet, but to give our listeners a sense of what the internet addiction test measures, it's questions along the lines of how often do you find that you stay online longer than you intended? How often do your grades or schoolwork suffer because of the amount of time you spend online?

How often do you check your email before something else you need to do? How often do you fear that life without the internet would be boring, empty, and joyless? Exactly. And what did you score on this test? I scored a measly 35 out of 100. A 3.5? A 3.5. You scored 3.5? I did, yeah. 30 plus 5. What does 3. 5 indicate? 35%. It goes into the bracket of 20 to 49 points. Yeah, I know what 35 out of 100 is. I'm not a complete... I'm not a complete...

I know what 3, 5 out of 100 is, but what does that mean? What is the doctor who shall remain unnamed? Dr. Internet Addict, I'll cure you. Dr. Surfgood. What does Dr. Surfgood say? Well, if you're within the 20 to the 49 point bracket, it says you're an average online user.

You may surf the web a bit too long at times, but you have control over your usage. But if I may say something, these answers seem to relate to the use of the internet in general. Right. As opposed to using particular applications, these games, which also maintain a constant online connection for the counting up of their statistics and everything and the placement of one in leaderboards. So you're saying that there's a distinction? I'd say there's definitely a distinction between, I don't know,

reading literary websites and playing the perturbed avian games. All right. Well, I'll adjust some of these questions then to specifically simple, reward-heavy, reward-heavy, stat-heavy casual gaming games, such as Dissident Winged Things. Dissident, that doesn't make any sense. Not Very Happy Avians.

That's an elegant way of putting it. Not Very Happy winged things. Yes. Vengeful Quetzalcoatls. Yeah. David, I'm going to ask you these questions about Anna. Okay. Okay?

Yes. How often would you say that Anna's work suffers because of the amount of time she spends playing these games? Rarely, occasionally, frequently, often, or always? From what I know, I think I would have to say occasionally. Describe a situation where her work has suffered because of the amount of time she spends playing these games. Well, I mean, there are two things here. First of all, as far as I know, I don't think it's unknown that Anna occasionally plays these games during her day job at certain moments. Guess what?

You just got Anna fired. Now she has all day to play these games. Yes. Good job. Yeah, well, except... Is that true, Anna? Do you play at work? I occasionally do, yes. Well, I don't think anyone has ever played Solitaire at work before.

No, I don't play that one at work. How often does Anna lose sleep due to late-night game playing? Anna has mentioned occasionally in the past that she has had kind of dream images of the birds flying around, and they're impacting on the pigs. And the other one as well. And the other game too. How often does Anna snap, yell, or act annoyed if you bother her while she's playing the game? Rarely, occasionally, frequently, often, or always?

Occasionally, I think I'd have to answer that. Occasionally? I think he's being very polite. Oh, would you answer that question differently, Anna? Perhaps one step up from occasionally. Not with real... You snap and yell and act annoyed if he bothers you while you're playing the game? Perhaps one step up from occasionally. You snap and yell and act annoyed if he bothers you while you're playing the game? I may do, yes.

Would you like to reduce the amount of time that you play these games, Anna? No. All right. Would you like to increase the amount of time that you play? Well, if there was more fun levels, then I would. You know you can buy more levels. Yeah, but this is my point. I don't go across that step.

I don't go across that bridge. Oh, really? Yeah. But you have three different games to play. You just snort them, you don't shoot them that bridge. Oh, really? Yeah. But you have three different main games to play. You just snort them, you don't shoot them? Exactly, yeah. But this is, in a way, this sort of leads to my, well, an aspect of my point, which is, you know, none of this proves that Anna is not addicted. If you are somebody who sort of, who had a plentiful supply of a narcotic and they were able to sort of service it and go about their daily life then they wouldn't necessarily wish to have less it's kind of the enforced scarcity exactly it's it's the kind of imposed scarcity that causes a problem and in a way this this was

precisely what led to some of the conversations regarding this case which is in the the more recent game that anna has in my estimation become addicted to which is in the more recent game that Anna has, in my estimation, become addicted to, which is the one involving Sweet Squash, exactly. And that game has a built-in limiter in the game system, as I understand it, where once you've played a certain amount or once you've lost all of your lives, you have to wait a while before you can play again. And when Anna first encountered this limitation, then she was really quite annoyed. And when Anna first encountered this limitation, then she was really quite annoyed. And how did her annoyance express itself? She said how annoying it was that she couldn't play for a while. And then I dare say went back to one of the other games for a little while in order to pass the time until the sweet squashing

was made available again. How long a delay is it before you're able to respawn? Well, I have now reached a certain level in this game, which means that I have to wait a full 24 hours, which I would say is in my... It's like your veins are collapsing. Exactly. You walk back and forth, you walk back and forth, chewing your thumb, going, come on, come on, come on, come on.

Come on, time, come on. This is my point in my favor, because I think this particular game is a good game in that sense, because it allows me to have strict limits on the gaming. It enforces that upon me, which I don't actually necessarily think is such a bad thing. And then it becomes exciting and new and fun when I do get the limit. limit and i haven't done any sneaky things like um changing the clock on the phone which i've heard that you can do uh to reset the lives etc etc although when you did hear about that technique you expressed some interest in it i've got control i have got control sure you can stop

anytime you want that's right and this no problem that's not something that's really been tested however um you know i don't think any you've you've never consciously sort of decided to spend a certain amount of time without without the computer games no that is true so what are you proposing david? Are you proposing that Anna simply accept the designation as addict, register with her local council office, start receiving methadone, and go under supervised treatment? I'm not even sure I would really wish for her to seek treatment just to accept the term addict. Oh, so she's just going to start getting her games from the government and play legally? Yes. But just under the stigma of being an addict?

Yeah, playing legally, yeah. It sounds like you really just want her to feel bad about doing it. Right, you just want her to feel shame. legally, yeah. It sounds like you really just want her to feel bad about doing it. Right, you just want her to feel shame. Exactly, yeah. And I think that's got a lot to do with this perceived idea that I'm not listening to him. Do you want her to reduce the amount of time that she plays? That's, I think Anna's somebody who, you know, works very hard in her daily life, and I wouldn't wish for the sake of it for her to reduce any kind of pleasures, or indeed pleasurable vices, which I don't think is such a terrible thing. However, the numbers... So, you don't want to stop doing it with her?

The numbers do seem like rather a lot. Do you seek, or do you currently enjoy compensatory non-game marred time together yes uh yeah yes yes we do you do enjoy such time yes so for the hour that she is gaming there is a there is a compensatory hour where she where you guys are spending time together and not gaming? Yes, I suppose that's true. I mean, not on those days when the, you know, because perhaps there is one day when I'm not gaming at all due to certain things. Yeah, because the game is preventing you from playing.

And you're mad. Yeah. But then there is also days when I do game for more than one hour. And those days are a little bit different, I suppose. When a day is lost to gaming. A whole day is lost to gaming? Like a lost weekend? Yeah, they can happen sometimes.

A bender. Anna, do you really wake up in the morning and the first thing you do is play a game? Yes. I like to take one in, either by the breakfast or before getting up. Well, that's a continental breakfast, basically. Yeah, exactly. I think I've heard everything that I need to hear in order to make my decision. I'm going to go into my sweet new chambers, which is outfitted with an original cabinet Donkey Kong console. And I will be back in about 17 days. See you, dudes. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. David, I'm curious as to why it is that all you want is for your girlfriend to admit addiction. If you're concerned about her addiction, why don't you want her to get help or want to help her? Well, I suppose because, I mean, you know, in reality, I don't think that the amount of gaming Anna does has a completely sort of disastrous effect on her life or on our life. But I think it would be unfair or untruthful to have it on record that it doesn't form an addiction. So you're just doing this for the record? Well, in a way, I'm the, I think, technically speaking, I'm the sort of defendant in this case. Anna brings the case to say that my calling her addicted is not really fair. It's, you know, as if I'm forced into the position of counter-suing.

Yeah, you are. Exactly. Okay, well, you can leave it at that. Anna, where does your boyfriend keep this permanent record that he's so fond of? Does he have a filing cabinet, perhaps somewhere in the kitchen where he keeps all his grievances? I think he keeps them very neatly stored in his brain, which is why it's very difficult to get at. Did you do any gaming, Anna, during the course of this case? No. No. No.

Okay, you're lying. Okay, you're lying. What happened is she was gaming while she answered that question. Then she thought about it, tried to make sure that she had answered the right answer, answered it again, panicked, and then answered a third time. David, what do you think your chances are in this case? I'm worried that the nature of my countersuit might kind of sound a little pedantic and pointless, dare I say. But I think truth is on my side, if nothing else.

Do you really think truth is what's important in a relationship dispute? And when I say truth, I mean capital T truth, like ancient Greek philosopher truth. Socratic truth. Ideal truth, yes. Anna, how are you feeling about your chances? Well, I have no regrets. I think that this is a close cut case in my favor, because, you know, I'm just simply having a relaxed time and having fun. That's awesome. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

Benjamin re-enters the courtroom. So, first of all, without ruling just yet on whether or not Anna is an addict, I would like to put in the record that computer games, indeed the internet itself, but computer games, and I dare say especially the new generation of casual games, such as Vengeful Quetzalcoatl's Sweet Squash and Solitaire. Well, Solitaire is old school. But Sweet Squash, which I've now figured out what you were actually talking about. but sweet squash which I've now figured out what you were actually talking about and and due to the uh the two different language that are are similar cultures that are separated only by a language only now have I figured out what it was I had a completely different idea of what it was I thought it had something to do with vegetables oh yeah okay. Oh, I see, I see, yeah. But now I understand it has something to do with candy.

And a sweet for candy, as opposed to an adjective describing candy. Now I get it. But these kinds of games, whether or not Anna is an addict, they are addictive. I mean, almost the definition of neurologically and chemically addictive, because these are dopamine pumps. That's what they are. Dopamine is the neurotransmitter that's emitted in the brain when it anticipates pleasure. It is the key to the pleasure center of the medial forebrain. It has an evolutionary function. The brain triggers for pleasure when we eat food that we

like, and especially sweets and fatty food, when we drink or when we have sex, because that's what we need to do to survive in general and especially in starvation situations. Now, obviously, these all become addictive behaviors because overactive dopamine heightened by stimulants like cocaine, for example, they over-trigger our desire to seek out the same pleasure over and over and over again. That's how they become sort of life-altering addictive behaviors. A study at Stanford University showed that even though playing video games is arbitrary and serves no evolutionary function, like throwing the thing at the thing or smashing the candies or whatever it is, the action of a simple reward-based video game still triggered the same pleasure centers like the nucleus accumbens and the amygdala. And casual gaming is particularly efficient in this triggering because the gameplay is so simple, it's essentially-Man or a, I can't name the terrible game that I was tricked into buzz marketing before. But it is one of these games where you just run through a maze. It's like subtext becomes text. And according to psychology today, it's not the

destruction that a vengeful Quetzalcoatl causes that triggers the dopamine response, but it's wanting to know precisely what form the destruction will take. In other words, it's not the pleasure itself. It's the seeking of pleasure that becomes addictive. What's around the next corner? What's around the next corner? What's around the next corner? That's dopamine.

It's the artificial triggering of the desire, or that's the dopamine effect of these games, the artificial triggering of the desire to seek reward after reward after reward after reward. Now, you might describe this as fun, and it is fun because you are triggering literal pleasure in your brain. But please don't fool yourself into thinking that this is not like clinically addictive stuff. I mean, this is dangerous stuff. Anyone who has an eight-year-old or a four-year-old in the house using your iPad will soon have statistics made very clear for you. Just how many games are played and how easy it is to hijack your Twitter account. and how easy it is to hijack your Twitter account.

And then how quickly the dependency becomes on the games to fill up time because you desire that dopamine response when you don't have it. Do you know? And you desire it so badly that the rest of the life around you can get to seem very joyless and uninteresting and kind of milk toasty like David, your boyfriend. No, I'm just kidding. You're nice. But, and I say all of this not to suggest that these games are bad because it's not just these games. I think these games are particularly potent and indeed, you know, studies are being done about the specific actions of vengeful Quetzalcoatls on the brain, because it seems to be one of the most sort of like compellingly

addictive of these games. And to the point that I believe the company that owns it now is so successful that it is as successful as a major airline, which I guess isn't saying it's very successful at all. Actually, it's doing terribly. But, you know, it's a creatively successful game, and I don't mean to besmirch any particular game, but some are definitely more addictive than others. And the proof is Sweet Squash, right?

Because Sweet Squash wouldn't put in the play restriction if it didn't know it was going to drive you crazy it's very addictiveness becomes not a bug but a feature of the game bringing you back for more and i am not saying this to say that these games are bad they are no worse than anything that triggers that kind of pleasure response, whether it is fatty food or sweet food or alcohol or cigarettes, which, let's face it, are pretty bad. Or more life-promoting activities like intercourse or social media or email or crossword puzzles or jigsaws or knitting, especially knitting. Boy, knitting. Try telling me that's not an addictive habit. Because with all those things, even with a jigsaw puzzle, which is as wholesome as it gets, it's dopamine. You need to put in the next piece to see how this thing turns out.

The promise of pleasure is there all the time. But with knitting, at least as much as I loathe it, you do get a scarf. And with popular word board games, you get to make words like buxomer, which is important. So whatever you want to say, Annana this is happening in your brain to suggest otherwise would be to deny that alcohol is intoxicating or the pizza is delicious or that consensual sex is awesome or that the third man is the best movie ever made to what degree you are addicted though not speaking chemically brain wise of course relies on your own behavior. Does your dopamine-seeking interfere with ordinary life? And I have to say that even though you admit that you game first thing when you wake up in the morning, I'd be lying if I didn't say I check my Twitter first thing when I wake up in the morning.

You know, there's a reason why Twitter is so popular as well, because it's incredibly twitchy. It's incredibly dopamine responsive, or I should say dopamine provocative, right? But even so, I would say I'm also someone who enjoys a martini. I am also someone who encourages people not to smoke cigarettes, but it happens that people do. I am also someone who encourages people not to smoke cigarettes, but it happens that people do. I am someone who encourages people to enjoy the enjoyable things in life in moderation and in balance with the rest. And if you can do that without it seriously harming your health or seriously harming your relationships, then I see no problem with it. I do see, well, but I want you to understand that you're dealing with something that is habit-forming, to say the very least. And on balance, do either of you smoke cigarettes?

No. No. I like that long N on that no, Anna. And I don't do any other, I don't drink very much, and I don't take any other drugs. And do you smoke cigarettes? No. Why do you keep pausing before you answer?

No, it's just I need to get to the microphone. And wishing to be absolutely clear, I think. Yes. David, does she occasionally smoke cigarettes, like at a bar? Very, very, very occasionally. All right. That is about the only... I mean, here's the thing.

Just to be clear about how I feel about cigarettes, compared cigarettes to casual gaming, they may be equally brain-chemically addictive, but you can do some casual gaming... I think there's... The point at which casual gaming becomes a threat to your physical health is almost impossible to contemplate unless you're doing it while you're driving, for example. I don't have a driver's license. for example i don't have a driver's license but but the point and i hope you never get one but the point at which smoking cigarettes becomes a threat to your physical health is almost immediately do you know what i mean but i i certainly know people who enjoy an occasional

cigarette that's just and i wouldn't call and truly i wouldn't call them addicts if they are having a cigarette once or twice a month or something. Do you know what I mean? So given that you only enjoy cigarettes very occasionally, but you are willing to lie about it on a podcast, you are addicted to cigarettes. But given that you use internet casual gamings, I'll call them as an old person, every day for an hour or more a day, including when you first wake up, but you are able to speak frankly about it and not hide it from me or your boyfriend, means to me that though both are addictive behaviors, you are not addicted to casual gaming. Come back to me when you weigh 35 pounds and you haven't eaten for days and your teeth are falling out because you're waiting for sweet squash to reboot.

Until then, this is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Anna, how do you feel about the result? I feel very, very happy about this result. Tell me why. Well, because now I can have that as a sort of, I can tell him that every time he sees me play. Well, now, wait a minute. Wait a minute.

I haven't left the courtroom, and I've got to say this right now. I'm talking about your status, and I'm saying status because I'm speaking to foreigners, right now. Right. But that doesn't mean that this precedent doesn't last forever. If your behavior changes, this is addictive stuff. If you become addicted and can't control and it's starting to harm your livelihood and your relationship with David. I mean, the only reason I'm not yelling at you right now is that David seems to have no problem with the fact that you disappear into your weird gaming world for an hour every day.

And you guys clearly love each other and have enough time together where you're not gaming. But be warned. My ruling here is based on your day-to-day behavior. Okay. If you start going crazy, I'll call you an addict all day long. You can't hold this precedent over David for the rest of your life. You know what I mean?

Yeah. After you've painted your windows black. So be happy now, but do not. You know what I mean? Sorry, go ahead, Jesse. Now you can continue your post-interrogation. David, how do you feel? Well, a little disappointed.

I suppose, though, the question was a semantic one, so it was always bound to be left open to interpretation. It was semantic on your part, but it was not semantic on my part. She was going to have to live with the slander of a misapplied word. Words are magical, as we learned earlier.

With the scarlet letter of A for addiction. That's true. So maybe the judgment has sort of saved us from a greater evil. You understand, David, that if you had come to me at any point during this and just say, I wish my girlfriend would pay more attention to me instead of gaming all the time, I would have found in your favor in a second. Yeah, I...

But you did. But you came to me with a semantic argument and you paid the price. Oh, well. David, Anna, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you very much. Thank you very, very much. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to

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You kids get all set, man. Gang, today Midnight and Squeaky are going to play three blind mice for us. Oh, my god. Don't do that. Oh, that poor cat. No. Oh, this is unbearable. Judge Hodgman. Oh my god. Oh, Jesse.

Oh, I can't take it. It's just too depressing. The cat is strapped down to a toy piano bench and is being forced to play the piano. And the mouse. Look at this, Jesse. Look at this mouse. Judge Hodgman. No, turn it off, Judge Hodgman.

Turn it off, Judge Hodgman. The mouse is being forced to play the harmonica. Judge, turn it off. I can't. I can't. turn it off. I can't. I can't. I can't. I'm all right. I'm okay.

Look, I can control myself. I can turn it off at any time. You can't. I've brought all your family and friends. I just want to watch a little bit more. I just want to watch a little bit more. No, turn it off, Judge Hodgman. Judge Hodgman, this is not a joke.

This is real. This is your life. Is this an intervention? Yes. I'm addicted to watching Midnight and Squeaky playing three blind mice. I've brought all your friends here. Me. Oh.

All right. I guess I've got to take this seriously. Listen. You've got two choices. Listen, you've got two choices. The first is an intervention where I tell you all the different ways that your addiction to Internet videos of creepy 1950s children's television programs has affected my life. The alternative is we can just clear the docket and say nothing more of it. Clear the docket, please.

Okay, here's something from Christopher. My wife and I differ on what's appropriate listening material while on road trips. I would like a mix of music and relatively short periods of talk, such as NPR five-minute daily news summaries, Smothers Brothers comedy albums, or the occasional podcast, depending on the length of the trip. My wife prefers a music-only playlist, as she finds talk boring. Her complaints over NPR have influenced our five-year-old son, who now reflexively says, oh, not NPR, that's so boring, as soon as he hears talking over the radio. Judge Hodgman, please order my wife to honor my listening preferences at least part of the time and prohibit her complaints during talk radio. Well, this is a Judge John Hodgman staple.

I mean, this is basic principles. Whoever is driving chooses, period. If you're the one driving, you go ahead and you rock that NPR. You rock that bullseye. You rock that ask me another. Take it easy on the Prairie Home Companion and And really take it easy on the Smothers Brothers. And that's not NPR. And obviously the Smothers Brothers are comedic geniuses.

But you have to, that's hardcore. You know what I mean? You don't want your kid growing up telling his wife or husband that you made him listen to the Smothers Brothers in the car. That's going to make you look bad. That may be private for yourself. But I definitely say, if you're driving, go for it. And I certainly am against anyone who would poison a child against public radio. Because that's going to hurt all of us.

And specifically, Jesse and me. That said, if she's the one driving, she can choose whatever she wants to listen to. It can be music all the time. And if she's the one driving, then you have to shut up about it. You cannot put Smothers Brothers on when someone else is driving, unless you want to get into an accident. Can I just say that I am so charmed by the idea

of him listening to the Smothers Brothers in his private time? He goes down to his den. The kids are away at school. His wife is at her mother's. And he just lights his pipe, sits back in his Barka lounger. He listens to Mom Always Liked You Best. That's exactly what I was about to say.

You took the reference out of my mouth. I'm sorry sorry i knew it's the only reference that could be made and i just wanted to share that with you because i'm addicted to cultural references i apologize jesse that was awful of me that was monstrous of me but do you disagree i mean smothers brothers that's like that's hardcore twee and it's not to say that Dick and Tommy Smothers are not comedic legends and comedic geniuses. And Mom Always Liked You Best. Tommy Smothers is, you know, I think that guy, that guy is sung. He's not an unsung hero of comedy, but he's not sung enough. Yeah. And they, for something from 50 years ago, are still pretty funny based on the sort of timelessness of smart guy, dumb guy. Yeah.

I mean, and Dick Smothers is one of the greatest straight persons in the world. But again, like, you might as well, you know, it's just, you might as well be playing Froggy the Gremlin for your family. But you know what? That's weird stuff. That's weird stuff for late nights alone with a little marijuana. You know what's in that vein that I think would play well with a family audience? Perhaps even his wife. And, you know, isn't far off that target is the 1960s albums of Bill Cosby.

No question. Hold up exceptionally well. Perfect for all audiences. There's nobody that doesn't like Bill Cosby. You question. Hold up exceptionally well. Perfect for all audiences. There's nobody that doesn't like Bill Cosby. You know what, Jesse? You should put together a series of comedy recording mixtapes for different situations. You think I should get the cause on the phone and ask him about his licensing arrangements? Yeah.

You should become a... No, just make the playlist. You don't have to actually release the tapes. Well, folks can always listen to Bullseye from National Public Radio and MaximumFun.org's annual Best Comedy of the Year special

for an actual comedy mixtape actually made by me once a year. And obviously people can listen to any of my audiobooks, since we're doing some buzz marketing. If you're going on a long 17-hour drive, why not download the That Is All audiobook? But let me say this.

You know how much I support public radio. And I love Billy Collins, former poet laureate of the United States. And I have nothing against Writer's Almanac. But please, public radio, listen to me. If Garrison Keillor takes another break, would you please consider John Darnielle as interim Writer's Almanac dude? Because that's something I'd like to hear. I think he'd be great

at it. Hey, if you get the chance, review Judge John Hodgman in iTunes and tell a friend about it. It's a free, easy way to make us rich, powerful men. And may I say thank you to everyone who came out to the show in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. It was an incredibly fun, lively crowd and a very gracious crowd. And I'm very grateful to you all for coming. It was a real delight to perform for you. I'm going to be touring more throughout the fall on my own. And with Kristen Schaal and Eugene Merman, you can check it all out at johnhodgman.com slash tour.

Jesse, who came up with the name for this week's episode? This week's episode was named by Kate Powers. If you'd like to take a crack at naming a future episode of the show, like us on Facebook or follow us on Twitter. I'm at Jesse Thorne, J-E-S-S-E-T-H-O-R-N. I'm at Hodgman, H-O-D-G-M-A-N. No E in Hodgman. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman, H-O-D-G-M-A-N. No E in Hodgman. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Let's try it again. Stop it, you monster. Stop hectoring that cat. I love this.

I hate it. Come on. Ah, I love this. I hate it. Oh, my God. This is the most depressing thing I've ever seen. Goodbye. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at GoSuperEgo.com.

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