Judge John Hodgman - An Appeel-ate Case Decision

Episode Date: April 14, 2011

Friends (and Canadian barristers) Nick and Phil bring their fruit-based case before the Judge: which gentleman's technique for peeling a banana is correct?

It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week on the show, an appeal-it case decision. Nick is our complainant. He says that his dispute with his friend Phil revolves around the proper technique for opening a banana. Phil begins at the nub. Nick begins at the stem, like most people. Phil says that his way is easier and more efficient and that peeling from the nub peels away those weird vein things that run along the side of the banana. He also says that monkeys peel from the nub. Nick, our complainant, says that it's just not the best way to peel a banana. So who is right? Who is wrong? Who is a man?

Who is a beast? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman enters the courtroom. Hey, everybody, and welcome to another episode of Fruit Court. The craziest court about fruits and the ways to eat them. Most courts about fruits are incredibly sober and dull. That's what makes this one so much more fun. No tomatoes here.

Oh, no, they aren't fruits. Those are fruits. Yes. First decision. Jesse, would you swear these guys in? Nick, Phil, please rise and raise your right hands do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth

so help you God or whatever I do do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that his aversion to fruit has led him to suffer from scurvy on multiple occasions.

I do. I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman? Make them say, God save the queen. Okay, now say, God save the queen. God save the queen. Now say, and her fascist regime.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Jesse, come on. A little respect, a little diplomacy. This is our first international edition of Judge John Hodgman. There are now two courts that hear international cases of this merit, the Hague and this podcast. I want to say, first of all, I would not normally hear this case about banana peeling because it is trivial and it is also essentially and literally a matter of taste for which there is usually no accounting,

though plenty of judgment. But I am told that you are both Canadian attorneys. Is that correct? Well, we're Canadian lawyers. We don't call ourselves attorneys. Oh, this is why I'm so excited to talk to you. All the little crazy regional differences. What do you call yourselves, solicitors or whatever?

For our purposes today, I believe we'd be barristers. All right. Well, I'll ask you more questions about that in a moment. But since you guys are Canadian barristers, I wanted to hear you guys argue this trivial case about bananas, especially since because you are Canadians, I'm sure you've never seen a banana before in your life. So let's go. Nick, you are the complainant in this case, and your complaint is about bananas.

It is. Go on. By way of background, this all began when we were in law school together in Kingston, Ontario. Barrister University, I think is what you mean. We call it Queen's University, which is also a Canadian phrase that you can mock. Well, I'm not mocking. Oh, we mocked it a lot.

Oh, okay. I have a question. Was your major wigs and such? We don't have wigs, but we do have robes. I'm currently wearing my gown and tabs. And that is some sort of marital aid? Judicial robes. You have to wear it. The robes, I understand. What are tabs? The things that go around your neck instead of a tie. Oh, your barrister's cravat. Sure. Okay, I gotcha. It's worn because it makes orgasms more powerful. Yeah, that's why

it's called a barrister's cravat. Anyway, moving on. Nick, for the complaint. Right. So Kingston, people are drinking, which is what people do in Kingston. There's nine prisons in that city and a couple of universities and only, I think, 100,000 people. Right. So I wasn't there, but Phil was disputing bananas with some friends. And then the next day, he posted on Facebook that he, quote, peels his bananas the correct way. Now, Phil, to his credit, is not a big Facebook guy. So the fact that he actually went to the trouble of doing this talks to how important this issue is to him. So I asked him about it, and he explained that, as Jesse said, he peels from the nub, and he really believes it's the best way to go. And he jumps at any opportunity to say it's the correct way,

it's more efficient, and I would submit that this is obnoxious, even if he's right. But it's much worse, given the fact that he's factually wrong. The most efficient way to peel is the classic from the stem, peel down the banana, no worries, no problems. Okay, Nick, I'm going to ask you

to hold there for a moment. I'm going to give Phil an opportunity. You claim that Phil will jump at any opportunity to defend his banana peeling practices. I did not hear him jump at it, although maybe jumping at things means something different in Canada. Maybe that means waiting five days and writing a well-thought-out letter. But Phil, would you jump at this opportunity, please, to defend

your banana peeling practices? I would disagree with the statement that I'd jump at any opportunity to defend my practices. I only defend my practices when other people point out that what I'm doing is weird when I peel from the tip of the banana. So I take issue with the assertion that I jump at any opportunity to bring up banana peeling. Now just to clarify, most

people that I know in my life peel a banana by holding the banana and grabbing the elongated stem part and pulling down by the tip. You mean the other end? That's right. Okay. And why is this better?

Well, first, by leaving the stem, which most people use to peel, intact, you have a handle which you can hold on to while you enjoy your banana. As opposed to the rest of the banana? Holding the stem is a more luxurious and sophisticated way of holding it. Right. It's not a handle that you're devouring as you eat. Precisely. It's something that you can hold while you eat the rest of the banana. And nor are you denaturing the flavor of the banana by warming it with your hand.

Exactly. Much as you would not grasp, as you put it, a champagne flute by the vessel holding the champagne, because that will warm the champagne. You hold it by the stem. Precisely. I see your point. Okay. And how long have you been doing this?

I've been doing this my entire life. Your entire life? Yes. It's a family tradition to peel the banana from the nub. Oh, I see. And is your family feral? No, it is not. Was it raised in society? Was it raised in civilization?

Yes. See, I presume that you had heard about it from the Slate magazine article from 2002, where they really went into great depth about this very debate, and then you were just recycling that in order to get on the podcast and get a little fame for yourself. But this is a real thing for you, isn't it? No, I was well ahead of the curve of that Slate article. So to speak. Because bananas are curved.

They're the only curved fruit, if you think about it. Maybe plantain. All right, listen. You guys have both produced some evidence for me. And in fact, Nick, you put forward a video. I did. I'm going to play this video now. All right, Nick, this is you.

Here we have a banana. Nub, stem, easier way to open it is from the stem. I wrap my hand around. Notice I don't need to use my nails at all. I have a good distance from the fruit. I can use the stem and leverage it creates to pull it apart and the peel comes down. My friend would have you start at the other end. Notice the structural integrity of this peel is already decimated. And still, to open it, I would have to literally at the other end. Notice the structural integrity of this peel is already decimated. And still, to open it, I would have to literally pinch the fruit. It's ludicrous.

So you pinched the fruit and then you kind of pulled it open and it was kind of mushed up there. And you said, yeah, that's a banana you want to eat. I presume you're using Canadian sarcasm there? I was attempting to channel the ShamWow guy for the purposes of that video. And he always seems to have a slight disdain for the audience.

I see. And a ridiculous amount of confidence and a kind of robotic voice. So I think that's a persuasive way to do a 45-second spot. Let me just ask you a question since we're talking about it. When you pinched the tip of the banana – boy, everything in this thing sounds like a euphemism. When you pitched the tip of the banana and you crushed it into an unappetizing mess, do you think that was a reasonable banana tip pinch or were you exerting a little extra force to make a point there? I have done this before.

As I said, I've tried it and there are definitely times where it works fine. It's kind of like opening a bag of chips. Sometimes it comes apart right away. Sometimes it takes a little extra force. I think an engineer would look at a banana and say that the stem is a great lever, and it gives you that distance, and then the end of the stem acts as a fulcrum, and you pull it down, and it's the best way to do it. An engineer, indeed.

Indeed. What about the great engineer in the sky? That's above my pay grade. Well, we'll get into that in a moment. Let's just watch the rest of this. I always told myself I wouldn't be the guy who does that thing with banana on the internet. But now here we are. All right.

Now I'm going to stop there. You said, I always told myself I wasn't going to be that guy who does that thing with the banana on the internet. What are you talking about? Are you okay? I, I am. Uh, I am, I'm concerned about what's going to happen when my family hears there's a webcam video of me circulating involving something and a banana. But what do you – when you say – I'm always worried that I would be that kind of guy who does that thing with the banana on the internet.

What are you referring to? I don't know. Anything involving internet and webcams is a little suspect to me. So I was apprehensive going into that one. There are a lot of videos of people doing things with bananas on the internet, you realize. Phil, do you want to talk about that? Well, I want to bring into question Nick's video here because, like

you pointed out, it seems like he's intentionally messing up when he peels from the nub. And additionally, the quality of the video is grainy and leaves open the possibility that the footage was altered. I think you're looking at it from the quality of the video is grainy and leaves open the possibility that the footage was altered. I think you're looking at it from the point of view of a Canadian Internet user because this is actually so much better than the JPEGs and videos that we get from American Internet users. It puts everyone else to shame.

It looks fantastic, and it has not been altered in any way. Here's a YouTube video that I found doing a little research on my own called How to Peel a Banana Like a Monkey. This is great for podcasts. I learned a new trick yesterday, and it really blew my mind because I've been eating bananas forever, and I would always try to open it from the stem, like dig my finger in, bite it, get that nice taste of banana in your mouth. But then a friend of mine, Brittany, saw me like struggling with it yesterday and showed me how monkeys open a banana. And you don't open it from the stem.

Just kind of pinch of pinch the tip. It'll split, and you peel it out like that. All right, now I'm going to stop there. I don't know how you do it, Phil, but this guy pinched the tip. It opened right up. It looks fantastic. I don't do it quite the same way that the video you're looking at does it, but I do it in a similar way. Are you familiar with this particular video?

I am, yes. How would you describe, in the most euphemistic terms possible, please, the method by which you eat a banana that is different from this video? Well, in pinching, I just use my thumb a little more, and I kind of like pop the top off a little bit, and then peel

down the side. I see. And did you provide any evidence as well? Some images of you? I did provide some photos, yes. Okay. Here you are in your Canadian apartment with the stem side down. Here you are mangling the tip of the banana. And now you're peeling down from, like, this does not look as good as the other guys, I got to tell you. Like, I'm removing the nub at the tip because I prefer not to consume the nub. You're not a nub eater, Phil? That's right. I prefer not to eat the nub. This looks like a lot more work than the guy on the

video. Does this go easily for you every time or do you mangle? How many bananas do you mangle to get an okay edible one without the nub? I eat a banana every morning for breakfast and I can't remember the last time I mangled one. I't remember the last time I mangled one. I can remember the last time you mangled one, when you took that picture. If you look at his evidence, the picture marked 003, he's tearing off the top of the banana. His thumb is in the fruit. That is not an efficient, effective, or clean way to peel the fruit. The fact that this method requires a guide on YouTube speaks against its easiness.

There's no YouTube video of how to peel a banana from the stem because everybody knows how. You don't need a guide for something that's so easy. Have you ever heard the term the atheist's nightmare? I have not. Okay. There is a very popular, maybe even more popular than How to Peel a Banana Like a Monkey, a video of the actor and born-again Christian Kirk Cameron and the creationist, I believe his name is Ray Comfort, using the banana to disprove evolution.

Specifically, by saying that they are perfectly suited to be held by the human hand, and that the stem is perfect for pulling down to peel the banana, making it very easy to eat. And there is no way that this could have possibly emerged through natural selection. It had to have been designed by an incredible fruit engineer in the sky. Now, that is why monkeys eat them Phil's way, to remind them that they will never be human, because only humans are gifted by God with the intelligence to use tools. So, Phil, why would you deny God's plan by eating bananas this way? Why would you deny God's plan by eating bananas this way?

I think that monkeys eat it from, or peel from the tip is evidence supporting my point. And I think the argument contrary to that is ridiculous. And similar to humans, monkeys have opposable thumbs, so they're able to undertake the same methods that humans can. Okay, that all sounds very logical. So Nick, why are you denying God's plan to give us this perfect banana handle in the form of the stem? I, first off, would like to note that I'm not associated with the people you were referencing. One of you guys is against God. That's what I know.

And for me, it's just a question of figuring out who. I haven't researched how monkeys open bananas. If I picture a monkey opening banana, it's probably using all four of its extremities and its teeth and consuming a lot of the peel. But I'll concede for our purposes today that a monkey opens a banana Phil's way. I'll allow it. I don't think that matters. We all know that an appeal to popularity is a fallacy. What Phil and others are doing – Is that the crux of your whole argument? No. Because everybody does it this way, it must be right?

No, no, it's not at all. As a matter of fact, everybody does it this way, but I would put a lot of reasons that it's right. But if we're going to go with an appeal to popularity, we should at least go with humans. An appeal to popularity among monkeys is that much worse of a fallacy. Human beings are better at opening things than monkeys. Monkeys are great animals, but I can open, I don't know, an egg without making a mess, a milk carton, or a bag of milk here in Canada. Do you have any video proof of this? Bet you can't get termites out of a mound. Phil, do you have any evidence that monkeys eat bananas this way? I've seen videos opening bananas this way, yes. Uh-huh. I've seen videos of monkeys eating bananas this way.

I've seen videos of monkeys taking a big bite out of the center of the banana and peeling outward from there. I've seen monkeys eating the peel. I've seen apes eating the peel. Phil, do you eat the peel? I do not eat the peel, no. I have to say that I agree with Nick to some degree here that saying that monkeys eat things a certain way, even if that were provable, is not necessarily how we should be doing things. Are you saying that it's more natural to eat a banana this way?

Yeah, that's right. I think it's the way the banana was made to be open. Oh, designed by the banana engineer in the sky? That's right. I see. God save the queen. I'm going to pause here for a moment. There was a, in the original complaint, Nick suggested that

Phil, you are something of a contrarian. Would you say that's true? To an extent that is true, yes. You said that you did not actually see Titanic until the year 2009. That's right. And that you, according to Nick, got off on being different. That sounds a little strong. I would say I got off on it, but sometimes I would take pride in being contrary to the public norm. That's right. Is that what's happening here?

No, that's not what's happening here. All right. Let me ask you a couple of questions about your work as barristers in Canada. What is the legal system like there? Do you do it over Skype like we do? Not typically. Okay. Are you wearing wigs? No. Okay. Can I take my wig off then? That's up to you. Do you have judges? Yes, We do. What would a Canadian judge do in this situation? Well, it depends. I mean the kumbaya Canadian thing to do would be to send us out into the hallway to settle this privately and come up with some – Do you settle lawsuits that way? Yes.

I've been sent out of court. Almost all of them. Really? Yeah. Yes. What do you mean? We have consequences here. If you

make something go to court and you lose, you have to pay for the trial and pay for the other guy's lawyer. Oh, no, we have that here. Certainly in my court. I would hope so. You realize that if you lose this case, Nick, you owe me $10,000.

See, in Canada, if I was to lose this case, I don't fill $10,000. Oh, no, you owe me $10,000. Well, see, in Canada, if I was to lose this case, I owe Phil $10,000. Oh, no, you owe him $10,000 already. That's just court costs. This is getting expensive. Well, and Phil, you owe us both $20,000. Sweet. Canadian. And bananas.

Well, Canadian, it's even more then. So do you guys want to settle this out in the hallway? No. We've been waiting for this for years. For years, really? Well, since 2008, basically, this has been something that comes up regularly. And I think the thing about Titanic, which, by the way, is unpatriotic because James Cameron is a great Canadian, is absolutely – But Celine Dion is a terrible Canadian, and I take pride in not supporting her.

Let's just say the good Canadians and bad Canadians even each other out in that movie. Okay. It's still a fine film. I still like it. A lot of people, it's in vogue to hate it, but I think it's pretty good. It's got its moments.

It's the most realistic computer boat I've ever seen. So what would you want to come out of this, Nick? If I rule in your favor, you want me to ban this guy from eating bananas? No. I think he should keep eating bananas. I think he should keep opening bananas however he sees fit. I just think he should acknowledge that the stem is the efficient, right, correct, to use his term, way to open a banana. And if he wants to keep opening it by the nub, he's free to do so, but he can't keep arguing that it's the best way to do it.

Phil, how do you respond to that? What would you like to come out of this ruling? If I rule in your favor, you want me to ban Nick from eating bananas? No, he could still eat bananas. I support eating bananas even if you eat them incorrectly. I just would want him to admit that he mangles his bananas when he eats them and that he's not eating it properly. Okay, I think I'm ready to make my ruling. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

I'm not sure that they do that in Canada. I think they just spin around in their chairs as I leave. Nick, Phil, one quick question. Should I not have worn this wig? And also, what about these pumps? I think we should get a picture of that, put it on the website. And it sounds good to me. Nick, how do you feel about your prospects in this case? I think they're good. He's going to have to face and his family, although I have nothing

for respect for them, are going to have to face that this isn't the right way to open a banana. And again, I don't want to offend anybody, but I would note that Phil and his family are Mennonites. And I don't mean to be prejudiced, but they're the group who gave us the Amish. So I don't think they're an authority on the easiest way to do things. Phil, how do you feel about your chances? I think that Nick kind of overplays how passionate I am about this. And I think he might be the one who's more passionate about it because he mentioned this Facebook update.

So it seems odd for him to complain about the level of passion I have when he's the one who has a catalog of information in his memory regarding every comment I make. To be fair, Mennonites are known for blackout drinking. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom. known for blackout drinking. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. Well, I haven't given this very much thought because I was too busy enjoying some bananas and as well enjoying a little Mellow Yellow. Do you have ideas about how to make Mellow Yellow, you guys? No idea. You know what I'm talking about, right? I'm talking about banana peels turned into marijuana cigarettes. Come on, Mennonite, you know what I'm talking about banana peels turned into marijuana cigarettes. Come on, Mennonite, you know what I'm talking about. Unless you are a creationist, there is no correct way to peel a banana.

I don't care if you are a Canadian attorney or barrister or solicitor or tab wearer. Neither of you is God. And while there may be some advantages to either method, and they mean a lot to me, believe me, I resent that one of them clearly deals in the logical fallacy that it is somehow more natural and monkey-like to eat a banana from the tip. That is simply not proved to me by any of the many, many amusing monkey videos that I saw on YouTube. to me by any of the many, many amusing monkey videos that I saw on YouTube. I also do not believe that while I think it is more efficient and more to my liking, that the peeling from the stem is nothing more than maybe just a social convention that maybe Phil's way of eating

bananas is just something that hasn't caught on yet because people tend to enjoy eating bananas that aren't, that don't start out as a big pile of mush that you've put your thumb into. But maybe that's just me. What I'd like is for you guys to go out there in the hallway and settle this like Amish Canadian Mennonites and agree to live separately where, you know, Nick, where, you know, Nick, you can pull down your banana in the proud English way using the stem and the various buttons and hooks and eyes and machines that you're used to. And, Phil, you can go into your weird other world of anti-technology and not use any leverage at all and mash up your banana before you eat it and get horrible infections because you're not washing your hands properly. And everyone can be happy like they are in Canada.

But you are both asking me for a ruling one way or the other. And since you are asking me for it, I will provide it for you. All of the advantages that Phil suggests are nothing compared to the very simple advantage of leverage that the stem provides. It is simply the easiest way to break the seal of the peel of the banana. And while I will acknowledge neither way as being the only way to eat a banana, I must conclude that leverage and the use of the scientific principle of the lever trumps any other consideration when it comes to opening a banana. This is the sound of me peeling a banana. Judge John Hodgman rules.

That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Nick, how do you feel? I feel great. This is a victory for non-Mennonite Canadians everywhere. Phil, I know you're a polite Mennonite Canadian, but how do you feel about the fact that your friend Nick has defeated you in your chosen profession?

It's terribly disappointing, and I'm going to have to take a long look in the mirror tonight, I guess. I just want to clarify here. I'm not saying saying the way you're eating the banana is wrong i do hope you're washing your hands for sure but you know what nick you should be washing your hands as well and frankly nick i don't like your attitude i think you brought a lot of aggro canadian aggression to the court and uh and i and i feel like you ought to go easy on your friend with his weird banana eccentricities. But you did make a stronger case. When you said this thing provides leverage, I was like, yep, there you go.

I appreciate that. I will respect Phil more in the future. It's not a personal victory for you, my friend. It's a victory for science and the banana engineer who is our god up in the sky. God save the queen. Nick, Phil, thank you for joining us thank you thank you now having retired to chambers uh judge hodgman shall we perhaps clear the docket let's get some judgment done here's something from connor he says my wife and i just got married in sept, and she took my last name. She set up a new email address, since her email was her first and last name,

at a popular free email provider, and she has alerted her friends and colleagues to this change. They are, as might be expected, slow to react, and she still regularly gets emails at the old address. My friend Derek believes that the onus of the change is on her, and she should simply forward all her emails from the old

account to the new one. How did Derek get in this? Is this a polygamist colony or something? One can only assume. Okay. So, in the event of a change of email address, should one set up one's old email to forward to the new account and let people update or not as they wish? Or should you simply send out an email from the new account requesting that friends update their contacts? I think that, quote unquote, Derek is an invented person that Connor has made up because he knows my longstanding precedent

that when a husband takes issue with a wife, that the husband is wrong, typically. And he doesn't want me to be prejudiced in that way. And this time it worked because Connor and Derek are both correct. And unfortunately, Connor slash Derek's wife is not correct. She cannot expect everyone to automatically change their contacts right away.

She should expect and anticipate getting some overflow email to the wrong address for a period of time until her name change catches on. One thing that we need to understand about life is that insisting on perfection among others is never a solution to our problems. But do you know what? Whatever her name is, I'm always going to call her Derek.

Here's one from a longtime MaximumFun.org supporter, Rhett. He says, The question that has plagued us for ages must finally be put to rest. Are zebras white with black stripes or black with white stripes? I'm going to defer to our friends at HowStuffWorks.com and the podcast Stuff You Should Know to tell you that the answer is zebras are black with white stripes. The reason the stripes are formed is because zebras have a pigment-suppressing gene that suppresses the natural black pigmentation selectively, such that it forms stripes.

Therefore, they are black first, with white areas where the pigment has been suppressed, and indeed, their skin is also a dark brown, blackish color. But Dalmatians, on the other hand, are a little bit different. Did you know that, Jesse? I had no idea. They do not have spots. What do they have? Nothing. It is an optical illusion.

People only ever look at Dalmatians after they have been staring at bright lights. That's why they look that way. That's why Dalmatians are known as the runway stars of the dog world. See, now it makes sense, doesn't it? You wondered why, now you know. Thank you, Judge Hodgman, for helping us clear the docket. I'm glad that that's over with because I have some more brandy snifting to do. I'm glad that that's over with because I have some more brandy sniffing to do.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support this show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Matt Gourley. His great podcast, by the way, is called Super Ego. You can find it in iTunes or online at gosuperego.com. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, email us and be sure and include your telephone number. The email address is hodgman MaximumFun.org. If you have thoughts

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