Judge John Hodgman - Away With the Manger

Episode Date: December 19, 2012

Marisa brings the case against her husband Jay. They've blended atheist, Jewish and Catholic traditions for their household, but they've reached an impasse on holiday decorations. They both agreed to a Christmas tree, but Jay objects to a nativity scene for both religious and aesthetic reasons. Should Marisa be allowed to display a traditional nativity scene?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, away with the manger. Marisa brings the case against her husband Jay. They've blended atheist, Jewish, and Catholic traditions for their household, but they've reached an impasse on holiday decorations. They both agree to a Christmas tree, but Jay objects to a nativity scene for both religious and aesthetic reasons. Should Marisa be allowed to display a traditional nativity scene? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. I'm dreaming of some internet justice.

With every justice card I write. I'm actually a little behind in my justice cards this year. May your days be merry and bright. Be merry and bright. And may all your pie holes be shut. Shut up. Jesse, swear the venn. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?

I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that 365 days of the year you can find a tableau in his home entitled The Birth of the Hodge? Thank you. Very well. Judge Hodgman? Thank you very much, guys. How are you? Merry Atheist War on Christmas, first of all. Thank you.

Thank you, likewise. Thank you. Thank you. Likewise. Thank you very much. Hail Satan. Will you not join me in saying Hail Satan? I saved that for my altar. That's what I'm talking about. This is what I'm talking about. The podcast war on Satan's mess.

These people won't say Hail Satan with me, Bailiff Jesse. I doubted you before, but I believe you now. on Satan's mess. These people won't say hail Satan with me. Bailiff Jesse. Yeah. I doubted you before, but I believe you now. And, and when you doubted me, what did I do? I cursed you to a terrible cold.

It's true. And listen to my voice using the magic, using, using a magic poultice given to me by Anton LeVay himself when I was seven years old. Hello for an immediate summary judgment in your favor, I know that you can both name the piece of culture that I sung when I entered the courtroom. Correct?

Yes. Yes. And I'm usually bad on culture, so that's a help for me. It's a classic. Who wrote it? Marisa? Oh, thank you. It's a classic. Who wrote it? Marisa? Oh, thank you. It is Marisa.

I don't know who wrote it. No, Marisa did not write it. Incorrect answer. Jay, do you know who wrote it? I don't. Really? The answer, so neither of you get justice, at least not summary justice. The answer is Irving Berlin. Oh. at least not summary justice the answer is uh irving berlin oh and do you know why it is interesting that irving berlin wrote that song among many reasons well he was he was jewish he

was jewish that is correct he also wrote uh happy holidays uh which was the original salvo in the war on christmas apparently because it was not quite Christmassy enough. But no, Irving Berlin, a Jewish guy who wrote one of the most famous Christmas songs, White Christmas, for the movie, 1954 Bing Crosby movie, White Christmas. But also one of not only the most Christmassy of Christmas songs, but arguably the whitest of Christmas songs. Insofar as it bracketed an idea of Christmas which is not only ethnographically very narrow, but geographically very narrow as well. I mean, basically we're talking about, uh, the, the Caucasian, uh, Northeast, uh,

of this country and, and, and throughout the, throughout the West and Midwest. But, you know, there are large, large,

large parts of this world that celebrate Christmas. Um, that, that no, no white Christmas in either sense of the word, but there you go. Irving Berlin. Now you guys live in a blended household, religiously speaking.

Is that correct? Yes. And Marisa, do you bring this case before the court for justice? I do. And what is the problem? Well, we do live in a blended household. And I am Catholic by upbringing. I am sort of spiritual.

I'm not certain. I'm sorry. What did you say? I said I'm spiritual. I'm not certain that Catholicism is the religion. I am open to many different religions, but we have a daughter now. Pardon me for one moment, please. Bailiff Jesse?

Yes, sir. Could you go back on the record and tell me if Marisa said that she was spiritual? Marisa did say that she was spiritual. Was that a code word I shouldn't be using? Summary judgment in favor of Jay. Thank you very much. It was great talking to both of you. This is the sound of a gavel.

I can do my homework. This is the sound of a snap judgment gavel. I'm being very judgy right now. So, no, let me understand. You were raised Catholic. Yes. When was the last time you went to Mass? Well, last Sunday, but I've actually, because I'm looking for – we just recently moved. I'm looking for a new church, but I've been apart from the Catholic church for a while because I have issues with it politically. But so I went to not a Catholic mass.

It was a sort of multi-denominational Christian church. So in the eyes of – This is taking me a little further. But the point is further but the point is no no no wait a minute now wait a minute now now wait a minute wait a minute just for a second just because just because i am mean about people saying that they are spiritual does not mean that i do not recognize multi multi-faith or or multi-denominational churches as being valuable in people's lives, I think it's great. But you understand, when I asked when was the last time you were in Mass, I was speaking as a double-lapsed Catholic myself. My parents were Catholics who left the Church or who left regular service in the Church, and I was raised in the godless atmosphere of Brookline, Massachusetts, I may as well have been raised by Anton LaVey, basically. So I've very rarely been to mass.

But when I say when were you last at mass, you know, I'm talking about RC mass, because I have no problem with your multi denominational church. But as far as the the Roman Catholic Church is, that is a that is a Canadian house of pizza and garbage. You may as well be going to. Right. So the last time I was at a Catholic mass was actually last Christmas Eve, probably. I think it was. And it will be this Christmas Eve as well.

And so, but the reason, the case is about, we do celebrate Christmas in my family, but also now with our family, with our daughter. And if we are going to celebrate it, I want the meaning of the holiday to be present. And so therefore, I want to have a nativity, even if it's just, you know, the Mary and the Joseph and the baby Jesus, but just to have that present in addition to the Christmas tree and presents and all of that. Just for those few listeners for whom the war on Christmas has been so successful, they may not know what you are talking about. Because joyless atheists have removed nativities from the public square. Basically, we're talking about Jesus, Mary and Joseph action figures,

right? Yes. Okay. I didn't know if you wanted me to describe our specific nativity. No, but- When I believe Jay has sent in images of- Yes, we have Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. We have an entire farm, including six sheep, three people holding sheep, wise men, and I think, yes, the entire town of Bethlehem. Okay. Stand by for a second, because I can really sense your anger about this nativity coming off you. And I do want a moment to explore it.

Sorry. No, that's okay. Marisa, is Jay, your husband, describing the actual nativity that was given to you by your grandmother? That's correct. All right. Right. And so, generally speaking, nativity is a small scene with Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, action figures, and maybe some wise men, and maybe some three kings, barons, some frankincense, and myrrh, and so forth. And maybe some animals, maybe like an ass, right? Or what? What are the animals involved? Maybe some camels, right? Aren't there some camels sometimes you see them? Donkey.

Donkey. That's what I call an ass, because I i can because it's my podcast you know what i mean and uh and it's a and it's a and it's a scene that that that may be interpreted very realistically or or interpretively and you would display it where typically speaking like in your living room that's where we would display it we have a kind of joint living dining room area, so probably there. Next to, by the way, the menorah that came yesterday in the mail from Jay's mother, to which Jay responded, oh, no, you're going to use that against me. But anyway, we have a menorah, so I would envision putting it next to that in celebration of multiple. menorah. So I would envision putting it next to that, you know, in celebration of multiple. I also, having grown up in Brookline, Massachusetts, I've attended many Hanukkah evenings. So I know what a menorah is. And I don't really know how you could use it against

someone. It would make a terrible weapon, frankly. Jay, I'll turn to you now. You described already this nativity scene in great and angry detail. How old, first of all, is your daughter? May I presume her name is Godlessa? Yes. Alessia is 19 months old. Oh, okay. Alessia, excuse me. I must have misheard. 19 months old. So really, she's completely unaware of anything that's going on around her at this time, right? Other than her affection for mom and dad, right? That's true. Yeah. And her love of biscuits. I'd say by next year, though, she'll have a sense. Okay. And so this will be her second Christmas? Yes. All right. So Jay, you celebrate Christmas in your house. You observe Hanukkah as well?

Well, to say we celebrate, I guess it depends what you mean by celebrate. I mean, this is the first year we've had a menorah because one had been given to me by my mother just yesterday. In previous years, we've had a Christmas tree, which I enjoy having. The celebration of Christmas, both Christmas Eve and Christmas, has been done with her parents and her families, where she grew up, the house where she grew up, and with her relatives. So we haven't done any major celebrating of religious events in our house. So would it be better to say instead of celebrate these holidays, bitterly endure them? No, I enjoy.

No, no, that's not the case. And Jay's brother comes to these celebrations and yeah. Yeah, I do not dislike the holidays. I really enjoy having a Christmas tree. I enjoy celebrating Christmas with her family. I find, you know, the joy and the giving of gifts and I can take and I can even experience the joy that other people have in celebrating the birth of their God. I've got no issue with that. It's a question of what happens inside my own house and what is sort of, you know, just runs contrary to my own beliefs.

What are your beliefs? Are you a spiritual person? No. No, I am not. So what are your beliefs, if I may ask? I believe we live in a universe without any extraordinary deity or any deity of any kind that, you know, our time here on earth is our own. And then when it's done, it's done. So, you know, just put it simply, I don't have a, you know, I don't have a deep intellectual, you know, background in atheist literature. You know, I don't spend a lot of time reading about it or studying it. Suffice it to say that you're not spiritual.

I am not. In fact, one of the, uh, at our wedding, somebody described me as spiritual in one of the toasts and it just, it just eats at me a little to this day. I don't, I don't, I don't know how anyone could have described you as spiritual. I've known you exactly 15 minutes. And you are atheist and a spiritual, as far as I can tell. Yes, I am. Okay. But you do not believe in or practice any religion, right?

Right. You're an atheist, yes? Yes. Okay. Just so I am clear here and can figure out the best way to pit you guys against each other in a way that amuses me personally, Marcia, excuse me, Marisa, you would not describe yourself as an atheist? No. You would describe yourself as a spiritual person? I have a belief that there's something, yes, I would describe myself as a spiritual person? No, I have to say I have to believe that there's something. Yes. I would describe myself as a spiritual person.

I stand by that. You believe that there is something else? If you were not going to say spiritual. The reason that I take issue with spiritual is that it is so inclusive as to become meaningless. And I think that when you are a person of faith, and I would say that I am not strongly or not at all, but I respect people of faith. And I respect people of faith because they are putting their flag of belief down in a particular territory to say, this is what I believe. Whereas spiritualism encompasses everything from a belief in a monotheist to God to seances.

Do you know what I mean? Easy, Jay. I don't need you backing me up here, pal. Do you know what I mean? Well, easy, Jay. I don't need you backing me up here, pal. I got it. I got this one, okay? I actually said right, and that was me. That was Marisa. Oh, excuse me.

Well, thank you, Marisa. No, I understand what you're saying. Judge Hodgman, I would like you to know I'm not the angry person you seem to believe I am. Whoa, cool out, Jay. I don't get that attitude from you. know what bailiff jesse i think jay may need to be restrained for the first time and judge john hodgman listen listen to his maniacal laughter i don't know i don't control i don't feel very so so you know spiritualism allows people to say that they believe in God or something else without actually having to state what it is that they – to stake a claim in what they're believing in and then to have people either agree with them or disagree with them.

Do you know what I mean? And I think it's a difficult thing to defend faith. That's why it's called faith. Do you know what I think it's a difficult thing to defend faith. That's why it's called faith. Do you know what I mean? And I think, you know, to just say I'm spiritual is a way to try to evade difficult conversations. But, you know, it's real stuff. I can go deeper. Let's do it.

Let's go deeper. I believe that there is something greater than humans at play in the universe. And I don't know that it is the Roman Catholic God as much as whether I know if it's the Buddha or Allah or whoever. So or if it's a God at all, a monotheistic God at all. or if it's a God at all, a monotheistic God at all. Specifically, in part because of my Catholic upbringing, I do find some faith in thinking about Jesus Christ, who, in part because of his human qualities, right?

But, you know, the part of faith that is about thinking about how you want to live your life and sort of the the like values of compassion and all that, which are not only things you can do through faith, you can do it through other things as well. But that's something that I access through faith as well. And even just, you know, I don't know, the other morning walking through the Forest Hill Cemetery near our house, I just felt like, oh, I had a moment where I felt like a presence of something greater than myself. So I don't know what to call that. But that's kind of some of what is at play for me. And is someone playing the saw in the background? Oh, goodness. We have opera singers next door. Oh, goodness. We have opera singers next door. Oh, delightful.

We're in a little apartment. It's an angelic choir. Do you hear how they sing, Jay, when she describes the feeling of a presence of something else? Yeah, she has no idea who's singing is the problem. As I get older, since you honored my request to be very specific, I will become equally vulnerable in a way that Jay never will be. Sorry, I'm just being a jerk. instinct tends to lean much more, and frankly, sadly, to Jay's position that what we perceive is what there is, and therefore we must not waste our time being distracted from it. That is an atheist position. I also have felt moments of presence, typically when I was younger, and i think probably high on oreos

but i but i appreciate what a powerful feeling it can be and why that and i don't think the two things are necessarily in conflict with each other which is to say the idea of what what you perceive is what there is and also there are maybe things we don't perceive, right? I just don't think they're necessarily... Well, I describe myself as agnostic, which is to say, I am open to the idea that there is something beyond my perception. I don't think any rational person could ever not say that. What that is, I do not know. And that it is something that will provide me everlasting life after I die and decay seems almost hopelessly optimistic. And I don't necessarily know that either.

That's not central to my belief system either. So I guess the question I'm asking, Marisa, is would you marry me? No, no, no, no. Excuse me. We're both already married. But we had a moment there, I think. We had a moment of presence. No, but here's the thing I'm going to say before I recuse myself. Sweetie, Judge John Hodgman asked if I'd marry him. That's so exciting.

Yeah, you don't mind, Jay. You're an atheist, right? What do you care? Well, you know, you've called me an angry person and you're trying to steal my wife. I don't know. This isn't going the way I thought it would go. Jay, you're an atheist. Go marry a dog. Yeah, come on. Come on. Let's go. Go marry a dog. Let's go. Yeah, let's go. Let's all go. You know, let's let's sacrifice some some some some some oxen and dance around a golden calf. Yeah. Like in the movie Dragnet.

I'm sorry, you guys jesse jesse i've lost the thread here entirely no no i understand it's a little confusing jesse and i are trying to form our own syncretic religion a kind of multi-denominational church based on the movie dragnet and also my vague memories of of the ten commandmentsments starring Charlton Heston. And the rituals are a little confusing, but let's just say it's going to be a good time. But now to get back to serious stuff here, let's talk about this nativity scene. Marisa, you want it. Jay, you do not want it. And I will give you a chance to explain yourself in a moment, sir. Marisa, here's the question that I have. Do you believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ? I believe that it's possible. So unknown. So unknown. Okay. What does the nativity scene specifically mean to you such that you want to have it in your house?

have it in your house? It represents that there was a person who had great impact and that such that we celebrate every year his birth and that that is the source, spiritual and otherwise, is the source of our celebration. And so I want that represented and central in our presence, including physically, as we, you know, have our Christmas tree and next year have Santa Claus and so forth. May I just say you appreciate that it is very unlikely that Jesus Christ was born on December 25th. Yes. Right? It's basically Washington's birthday. But this is when we celebrate it, right? Yeah.

I also just want to say, because I know you're going to go to Jay, but I just want to say, like, I get that there's different belief systems at play here. And my general feeling is to embrace the expression of multiple belief systems, which is so having a minority and antivity next to each other. And if there's other, you know, that totally works for me. And so it's hard here. And why I chose to bring this case forward is that the belief system of atheism, there isn't like an expression to represent it, except to say, don't put that up. Right. And so that's what that's the challenge that we seek your judgment on. Well, but Jay, would you say that it's your position that there should that there should be no symbol of religious holiday in your home?

of religious holiday in your home? For me, it's important that there's a way to interpret what we have in a way that's not religious. So a Christmas tree, I can look at something that's just seasonally, you know, it's a seasonal, lovely thing. It smells nice, it looks good, you put lights on it, it's pretty, it's got, I know it's got a heritage that predates Christianity.

A menorah can be appreciated for the lighting and for the beauty of just having candles. For the lighting and its use as a weapon. For its use as a weapon, yes. It's the Jewish throwing star. It's used as a weapon, yes. It's the Jewish throwing star. But, you know, a nativity, my difficulty is that in a nativity, there's just no other way to interpret, you know, this statuary, you've got, you know, a representation of what is supposed to be, you know, the holiest day in history with the son and the son of God himself there in a cradle

surrounded by, you know, wise men and angels. my house that's really very contrary to what I believe. In what ways is it contrary to what you believe? I mean, specifically. There is divinity. There is, you know, that there is a God, you know, and moreover that God was the specific person who lived at this specific time. Right. But the menorah, is not the menorah a representation of a divine act. And a Christmas tree is, you know, clearly got a Christian, you know.

Oh, no, you love the Christmas tree because that is purely godless. Oh, yeah, the Christmas tree is utterly pagan in its origin. It was part of a trans-Germanic druidic yule ritual. Right. reason that we celebrate Christmas in December when it is very unlikely that Jesus Christ was actually born was so that it would coincide with a variety of midwinter pagan, which is to say, non-Christian ritual observance, such as Yule, such as Saturnalia, such as Anton Levamus, which is curiously an ancient Roman holiday that I made up. The Christmas tree was not a part of a symbol of Christmas throughout the world, except in the German and Bavarian areas until the 19th century when Prince Albert,

the German consort to Queen Victoria, brought a German Christmas tree to Osborne House in England, and then a bunch of postcards were made. And then suddenly everyone thought that's what Christmas was. But it was always a really curious symbol of Christmas because it is so aggressively anti-Christian. But it has been co-opted, right? I mean, you put an angel on top of it, you put a star, which is supposed to be, you know, the star of Bethlehem. And in our current culture, you know, it is a religious symbol to Christians. But it does, because of the heritage, it does give me another way of viewing it. Right.

But these things get synthesized into new interpretations, obviously. Right. Right, but these things get synthesized into new interpretations, obviously. Right, but how is there to be an interpretation of a manger? Well, do you deny that Jesus Christ lived historically as a historical figure? No. Right. So there, there's your interpretation. This dude was born. Surrounded by angels? With three wise men coming and giving him gold, frankincense, and myrrh? I am playing, to some degree, the Christ's advocate here. The opposite of the devil's advocate, I suppose.

But, you know, yes, I think that you could interpret it as an artistic interpretation of the birth of a profoundly influential baby? Can I respond to that? Yeah, of course you may. Did you see the evidence that I submitted earlier today? Let's take a look at it right now. Indeed, I received the evidence, but it looked so angry to me that I... Yeah, I understand. so angry to me that I... Yeah, I understand. So as far as an artistic interpretation,

the specifics here are important. These are, I mean, just take a look. These are plastic, molded, kind of, I don't know. They don't look so good. They look kind of cheesy. I see where you're going. There is an aesthetic issue here, correct? Yeah, there is. All right. So now I'm looking at the images themselves. And it's very old-timey, very RC, Catholic, very much the sort of thing that I might have seen, little porcelain figurines of the baby Jesus, a couple of angels, Mary and Joseph. There's definitely a camel there. There's a weirdly vaguely dusky ethnic king from afar bearing a sensor full of frankincense or whatever. This is what I would have seen near the Christmas tree at my aunt Ines and Yolanda's house in

Fitchburg, Massachusetts at Christmastime. Not my cup of tea. Let me see now. You also sent in a menorah. When I say not my cup of tea, I say not my cup of tea like I wouldn't buy it today, however. Nor would I. I appreciate that if it were given down to me by my Aunt Ines in Yolanda, I might not put it out, but I would keep it very carefully. And here is the menorah that was sent to you, Jay, by your mom, did you say?

My mom, yeah, received yesterday. Received yesterday. And what do you think of this? Because I am going to tell you this court finds that to be an ugly menorah. I'm sorry, mom. My mom's going to listen to this. I know. I know.

So be careful. The court knows exactly what it's doing here. Well, it looks more lovely lit up. I don't know. No, I don't know. Yeah. I think I think you might have taken the photo better if you left the flash off. It is a it is a it is a sort of pottery pottery sculpture menorah with with your candles in the base and then growing out of the base.

Is it pottery? Is it clay? Is that the material there? It was formed out of a 55-gallon drum by a Haitian artist and purchased at the Jewish Museum. So it's got the – as fundraising for works in Haiti. What is the material? Because I just presumed that it was fired clay that had been made into,

into sort of entwined branches with some blue flowers and some birds all over it. And to me, it had a very, a very sort of, I don't know why I want to say this, but kind of like overwrought sort of liberal New Mexico feel to it. Do you know what I mean?

That's pretty close. Yeah, that's a good description. It is iron. It is molded iron from a 55-gallon drum. And Haitians, I presume Haitian Jews made this? A Haitian artisan made it. A Haitian artisan made it. A Haitian artisan? Whose background is unknown.

There's just a card attached to the menorah. We don't have a great history on it, but to describe this artist's work. Well, here's the thing that I'm going to say, Jay. It's not something that I would choose to necessarily have in my home, but it has an interesting story behind it, to be sure. It has an interesting story behind it, to be sure. And more importantly, your mom gave it to you, which has a sense of family generosity and continuity to it, does it not? Indeed. Okay.

I think you see the point that I'm making here is that when it comes to these kinds of artifacts, they don't always have as much to do with our personal tastes as they do with a sense of community, continuity, and heritage. I think you could say the same about religion as well, right? You and I, Marisa, we don't have a lot in common with some of the political positions of the Catholic Church. But if you're like me, there's a big cultural heritage there that we feel a part of in the sense that I eat a lot of olive oil and feel guilty all the time. No need for guilt about the olive oil. I don't feel guilty about that. I feel guilty and terrified all the time. Okay, so Jay, your argument is that this nativity scene is not to your liking.

Would you feel better about a nativity scene that looked a little cooler? You know, perhaps. I got to say that my feelings on this have evolved and, you know, both the notion of being an atheist and then my reaction, you know, then my feelings towards the nativity have really come in moments where I've been confronted with it. I don't know if I would have expected to have as strong a reaction, uh, to the nativity until I saw it. Um, so it's definitely, I don't know, it's, it's possible that something that's, you know, looks a little better in our place. It doesn't look so, um, I don't know, just kind of tacky. So it was just one of those things where it was like, almost in concept,

you kind of were more or less open to it. But then when you saw it, it really kind of set you back a little bit. It did. I had a reaction to it that I really wasn't expecting. Could that be because you are a vampire or a demon? Not that I'm aware of. Okay. You may be possessed. You might want to look into that. Okay. That kind of revulsion to images of Christ tend to fall into the vampire and demon camp.

You may explain the anger as well. I'm being very antagonistic with you, Jay, but I am truly just being the devil's advocate of Christ, because I feel you. But I just wanted to verify, first of all, whether or not a cooler-looking nativity would be acceptable to you, or the nativity alone itself is so repellent to you that you have to outlaw it in your house altogether? Yeah, I don't know if repellent is the word I'd use. There's just a discomfort that comes from having it there. There's something that's so specific about having an image of God, you know, a statue of God in your house that is, you know, at odds with my beliefs, that is just very difficult to reconcile. You know, I can work with other, you know, with other emblems of religion, I think. But something that that's specific,

I don't know, it's a little difficult to describe why that hits me at such a deep level. What about it? Because it's figurative? Like, oh, sorry, a minute. No, no, please. I think it's a good point. Because it's like actually figurative, like a literal representation versus like a candle or something.

Yeah, exactly. Oh, there he is. She believes, you know, somebody here believes in a God and there he is right there on the floor. feel comfortable? I'm presuming that you would feel uncomfortable, for example, with a crucifix in your house that featured the withered, dying form of Jesus himself on the cross, because everyone feels uncomfortable looking at that. Yeah, those are grisly. Would you feel comfortable with a more interpretive, non-body displaying crucifix? I don't know. Honestly, the answer to that is I'm not sure.

And you have heard that your wife feels that this is special to her because it is a gift from your grandmother. Is that right, Marisa? Yes. Was it passed down to you by your grandmother? Is she still living or no? No. Does that mean, what does that mean to you, Jay? I mean, now that you know. Yeah. No, I appreciate that. I appreciate that it has a special meaning.

know, a special meaning. There is, in this family, there is a lot of significance given to objects. So this isn't exactly the only thing that's being handed down. And, you know, I appreciate that this has got a meaning in the family. But as much as I, you know, I'm not spiritual, I'm not sentimental. family. But as much as I'm not spiritual, I'm not sentimental. I think that this was something that was bought at a time for a time. I don't know if it was intended when it was bought to be this multi-generational thing, the thing that would be handed down as an heirloom. It's just not, you know, this is molded plastic, you know, that's like a, you know, look at Mary's face in the images, it's kind of coming apart. And so if I were to find in your favor, would you want me to find in the favor of your smashing this in front of your daughter to teach her a lesson about idolatry? No, your honor.

What would you like me to do if I find in your favor? What would you like me to order? I would like in order that a nativity need not be displayed. That is what I would be most comfortable with. You would like this to be put, to be taken out of your home forever or put in a box and never revealed? Yeah. Uh, or displayed. I don't know. I guess I could be open to it being displayed very limitedly, um, in a, you know, and not in the center of our house or shown to our daughter for a day or something. I mean, you know, displayed. So the center of our house or shown to our daughter for a day or

something. I mean, you know, displayed. So she, if Marisa feels it's important for her, Alessia, to see this for it to be, you know, for a confined time in a confined space. Okay. And Marisa, you would obviously like me to order your husband to stop giving you trouble and just let you show this thing around not show it around but display it throughout the Christmas season yeah I mean for for you know it's only like a couple of weeks like let's say starting now you know until Christmas um you know not tucked away in some random corner you know I mean it doesn't have to be front and center you know but like a place that feels appropriate.

And that, you know, for a couple of weeks of the Christmas season. And Jay, before I return to my Church of Satan chapel in my chambers, you have expressed doubt. doubt, or one of the reasons that you are not a fan of this nativity is that you feel that it without question represents the divinity of Jesus Christ, which you do not believe in. You have heard your wife express some, let's say, probational belief in possible divinity of Jesus Christ. How does that make you feel? I got to say, actually, the way she described her spirituality and her relationship with Christianity was a little surprising to me. So I'm not entirely sure how I feel about that.

I think there are probably some discussions to be had going forward. I'm curious to hear more. I presume you mean it was not surprising to you in a yay kind of way, but a oh kind of way. Or just more in a huh kind of way. Huh, okay, yeah. No, I think that probably you guys could enjoy and literally enjoy some time to meditate together and in discussion with each other about what all this stuff means to you guys individually and as a couple, particularly in relation to raising your child, Godlessa.

And that might take some time. Would you say 35 seconds will do? Because that's how long I'm going to be in my chambers. We have had some conversations, actually, and we've both enjoyed them a lot, but it's an ongoing process for sure. Well, I'm going to go in my chambers now and make up my own mind. Why don't you sort out what you two believe and how you're going to talk to your child about God, and then when I come back, we'll have it all figured out.

Okay. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Marisa, how are you feeling? I'm feeling good. That was, that was interesting. I don't know which way the judgment will go, but I feel kind of engaged with that conversation. Jay, did we just suck you into just a really big conversation about what spirituality really is, man? Uh, yeah, I don't smoke pot anymore. So it's a little, little extra work there. I will say that we've had with our daughter, we have had some very, uh, in-depth discussions around spirituality and took a long time to figure out about her right it was

it took some it took a little bit of time to figure out how we were going to deal with church and issues like that um but you know i think we we did a good job of coming to uh you know coming to some ground that we could both agree upon how are you feeling about your chances in the case i you know i i really think this could go either way. I really don't know. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. So I've been reflecting a lot on my own faith and seeking the counsel

of Anton LaVey in my heart. And as well, the teachings of Dan Aykroyd and Tom Hanks in the movie Dragnet. One of the things that I wanted to explore with you guys today in this interface was when I said that something that is true, but may have sounded provocative to the listeners and maybe even to you, Marisa,

when I said that even though I did not find that menorah to necessarily be to my taste, generally speaking, I did not feel the same kind of, I think I use the term repellent, but I don't mean it quite that way, the same problematic feelings that I feel about any nativity that I see. And this is as someone who has grown up with, you know, grew up in the son of two lapsed Catholics, certainly have seen a lot of religious art, certainly have seen a lot of nativity scenes and a lot of pictures of Jesus bleeding out of every orifice. is that I share with Jay a sense that unlike the menorah, there is not a tradition of the secularization of this particular imagery that exists certainly while the Christmas tree was never a Christian image to begin with. It got appropriated as you pointed out, Jay.

But that exists with certain other, and certainly with the menorah, where there is a long tradition of secular observance of Hanukkah, certainly in my experience growing up in Brookline, Massachusetts, whereas there isn't a lot of a tradition of secular nativity scenes or nativity scenes being appreciated in a secular way. This is why the war on Christmas that is dredged up every year by Fox News centers so much around nativity scenes. Because unlike Christmas trees, this is a very specifically religious object. religious object. But, and as someone who is typically a religious and who, like I think all Catholics, you know,

grow up finding Jesus to be equally fascinating and creepy, the images of Jesus in the Catholic Church tend to be very haunting. Do you know what I mean? And often gory, right? Yes. very haunting do you know what i mean and often gory right uh and and the reverence for this baby um feels uh i think tied up with my own uh ambivalence about religion growing up and again my experience of only seeing these things in the in the cluttered homes of my of my widowed and spinster aunts in Fitchburg, Massachusetts, in a place where I already felt about out of my element as I ever would be,

and therefore felt a little uncomfortable. So I think all of those reasons combine in me to feel this ambiguity, but the most potent one, I think, is the fact that this is an image that has not been secularized in our history before, and therefore it causes Jay, who is an avowed, so to speak, atheist, a certain amount of discomfort. But that said, there is no question that the menorah, for example, is a religious symbol. It represents a miracle. It represents divine intervention of the kind that, Jay, you do not believe. And it is easy for you to say that it represents a continuity of Jewish culture, perhaps, or even simply a continuity of culture with your own mom or your own fascination with seal drums and Haiti and all

those things would be true but it doesn't change the fact that that is what it is and I imagine myself if the situations were reversed here and the iconography were on the different sides of the argument my finding in favor of someone saying I don't mind there being a menorah in the house, but only if it's kept in a special secret box and it's displayed to my daughter in a limited way so that she has some basic understanding of this wacko religion that my wife has. But it's really not going to be a part of our life at all. I mean, that would not sit well with any podcast listener or with me, you know?

And I think that the fact is that you guys have obviously complementary views and that they sort of fit together in a commonsensical way about the big questions of life. You obviously get along very well and have a happy marriage and you have, I presume, a lovely daughter. I don't think she's a monster or a demon, but we'll see. I guess we'll find out. She's not right. When she touches the baby

Jesus, does her hand burn? No? Probably it's okay. But you guys have big you there is a gulf between your beliefs that this and this nativity scene sits on the floor in that gulf and i would say if only for that reason and also for the reason of equitability between the two religious cultures that you come from, if not necessarily belief systems, that you should include that nativity in your observance of the winter holidays. Because having that thing out there, by that thing I mean our Lord Jesus Christ as a baby, as a topic of discussion, is only going to enhance the feeling that these are subjects for open conversation that you and your wife and your husband and your daughter

can all have together and express your different points of view. More information, I think, is always better. That is perhaps the opposite of every world religion, that viewpoint. And at the same time, you need to appreciate that, Jay, that whether you like the looks of this thing or not, that is part of not only your wife's cultural background, not only your wife's literally family background as an heirloom, but also it speaks to something in your wife as a spiritual person, a term that I will not use snarkily at this moment. Isn't this a levamus miracle of me to not make fun of someone for being spiritual? But I think it's there. conversation, heritage, equanimity, well, equitability and equanimity as well.

I have to find in favor of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as a baby, as a magic baby lying in a manger surrounded by mom and virgin dad and camels on this, the most very spiritual episode of Judge John Hodgman ever. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Marisa, you've won the right to display Baby J. How are you feeling?

Baby J. I'm feeling great. That was great. And the more information is better, I feel like that's something we can all get behind. So yay, I feel good. How are you feeling, J? I feel fine. I think the reasons for the ruling are strong. And I can strong. And, uh, as I do, I can really get behind that, that message. More information is better. Well, Jay, Marisa, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Thanks so much. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your

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If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Well, happy holiday justice, Judge Hodgman. Come forward, Jesse, and let Dan Aykroyd and Tom Hanks walk with you. Let our Hollywood black mass begin. We have some cases on the docket. We could clear those out as part of our religious right. Just let me take off all my clothes and oil my body. And I will wear this horse skull mask that I borrowed from Marcus from that weird basement studio where we were recording last time.

And everything should be perfect. Here's something from Robert. He writes, Every year, my wife and I have an argument about the official end of the Christmas holiday season. Even though we are atheists and our celebration is entirely secular, I insist that Christmas is a 12-day feast.

Christmas tide that begins on December 25th and ends on January 5th, in time for the Feast of the Epiphany, January 6th. Only on the 6th will I consent to removing the Christmas tree, wreaths, and other decorations from our home. I believe it's generally more festive and enjoy an extended holiday. Also, my appreciation of the 12 days also stems from the song and my Episcopalian upbringing that celebrated the Epiphany. also stems from the song and my Episcopalian upbringing that celebrated the Epiphany.

My wife says that Christmas is a single day and decorations are taken down on December 26th. She usually has them struck by New Year's Day. So, for our purposes, when is the last day of secular Christmas? This guy thinks he's going to out Jason Sims, Jason Sims, with all his religious talk about the 12 days and the Epiphany and everything else. We already went through this with Sadvent. Boy, oh boy, this guy thinks he's so smart. Yeah, I get it. The 12 days of Christmas, that's the song too. I get it, smarty pants. Secular Christmas smarty pants. Here's what I think. If you are taking down your Christmas ornaments, trees, decorations, etc. on January 5th, you are already doing it much, much, much earlier

than most humans in the United States of America and Canada and Mexico and the world. Most people will leave their decorations up well into Easter time. So, not for any elaborate esoteric religious reason, but because of laziness. I admire the fact that your wife is not lazy and wants to get this stuff out of there.

But I think it's, if you enjoy the Christmas decorations well into January or specifically to January 5th, I think that's perfectly reasonable. You don't have to come up with a whole bunch of fancy pants explanations regarding the Feast of the Epiphany. Just say, I want to leave them up a little bit longer. I think leaving them up until the 5th compared to the 1st is utterly reasonable,

and I find in your favor. Here's something from Laura May. My boyfriend Chris believes that the way my family gives gifts is devoid of meaning, and I find this assessment unfair. My family tends to make lists around Christmas time of items we'd like to receive that year. It makes gift giving a simpler process that guarantees the recipient something they will enjoy and find useful. In Chris's family, they give gifts based on conjecture about what the recipient would enjoy the most. While we do this for birthdays,

it's simpler to use lists at Christmas because of the sheer number of gifts given. I don't think this is any less meaningful, but Chris disagrees. Who's right? Well, it is less meaningful to give someone a gift which is exactly what they have requested on a piece of paper or an email. I mean, that is empirically less meaningful. on a piece of paper or an email, I mean, that is empirically less meaningful. The best kind of gift is the one that you give to another person that they do not know they want or want so much but cannot bring to buy for themselves. But you cannot do that for every person in your life, or else you would be planning Christmas or secular Anton Levesmus or whatever it is that you, whatever gift giving celebration that you celebrate for the entire year.

Therefore, I find in your favor, woman who writes this letter, it is absolutely fine for your family to request specific things and for you to give specific things. Every family, every office, every small cohort of humans has a different way that they handle this kind of gift-giving strategy. And your husband has the right idea, but it is impractical and unnecessary to force upon the rest of your relations, and he should shut up with his opinions. Leave that special kind of magical, intuitive gift-giving

between the two of you. I just got the best idea for a gift for you, Jesse. What's that, Judge Hodgman? I'm not going to tell you, because I want it to be a surprise. Oh, fair enough. But it has something to do with your still sadly creaky, sicky voice

and your favorite home remedy, hot Dr. Pepper. Oh man, I hope it's singing lessons. I want to sing like a beautiful angel. How did you figure it out? Well, I just put two and two together. Yes. And came up with singing lessons.

Well, I know that you requested singing lessons, but I'm not giving you singing lessons because I've got a better idea for you. Oh, did you even look at my list? No. I looked at it, and I looked at it derisively, like Chris would do. The guy who wanted to tell his wife's family how to celebrate Christmas the right way,

his name is Chris, right? Yes, I believe so. Right. So I just want to remind him it's Christmas, not Chris's-mas. Now, as part of the Dragnet Levamus ritual, I am now going to shoot myself in the face with a crossbow. But you were going to suggest a gift, Jesse? I think everyone out there in the Judge John Hodgman audience might benefit from subscribing to our MaximumFun.org brother podcast, The Memory Palace.

Oh, yes. This is a monthly short podcast on the subject of history. I was about to call it a history podcast, but that seems reductivist. It's more of a storytelling podcast. I find it hilarious and moving and beautiful. And it's just, I think it's really something special. And it's only, you know, five or 10 minutes of your time every month. And it's really spectacular. So look for it in iTunes or on MaximumFun.org. It's called the Memory Palace.

And if you want something more physical, why not go to MaxFunStore.com and buy one of the John Hodgman deranged millionaire t-shirts? Ooh, I might buy one for myself. That would beman deranged millionaire t-shirts. Ooh, I might buy one for myself. That would be extra deranged. It would be even better if you, if you like built a house out of them or something.

You know what I'm going to do is I'm going to sew them together into a giant hot air balloon in the shape of my head. How about a seaplane? Oh. The world's largest seaplane. The world's largest t-shirt seaplane? Of course. Now you're onto something. OK, we'll talk to you, everybody. Next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Mary Darkin Grimm Anton Levitsimus to you. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of Maximum Fun dot org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at maximum fun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, super ego in iTunes or online at go super ego.com.

You can find John Hodgman online at areas of my expertise.com. If you have a case for judge John Hodgman, go to maximum fund.org slash JJ H O. If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum at forum.maximumfund.org and our Facebook group at facebook.com slash judge John Hodgman. We'll see you online and next time right here on the judge John Hodgman podcast.