Judge John Hodgman - Badgering the Waitress

Episode Date: December 11, 2013

Max says if he needs a server's attention, he's within his rights to flag someone down - but his friend Andy says he's going about it all wrong. Who's right?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, battering the waitress. Max brings the case against his good friend Andy with a dispute about customer service. If Max is at a bar or restaurant and needs something, he feels comfortable flagging down a server for assistance. Andy says Max's behavior is rude and that he's making the waitstaff angry with his actions. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Bah humbug. No, that's too strong. Because it is my favorite holiday. But all this year has been a busy blur.

Don't think I have the energy to add to my already mad rush. Just cause it's tis the season. The perfect gift for me would be completions and connections left from last year. Ski shopping. Encounter. Most interesting. Had his number, but never the time. Most of 81 passed along those lines. So deck the halls, trim those trees, raise up a cup of sadvent cheer. I just need to catch my breath. Sadvent by myself this year. Merry sadvent, merry sadvent, but I think I'll miss this one this year. Merry sadvent, merry sadvent, but I couldn't miss this one this year. Bailiff Jesse, please swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's only dined alone since the mid-1970s? I do. I do. Very well, Judge Hodgman. Max, Andy, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in your favor. Can either one of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom? Max?

Kind of a shot in the dark here, but is it something David Starris wrote? No, it is not. You are completely wrong. Andy? I am swinging and missing like Adam Dunn. That is a sportsman's reference. That it is. Then there is an immediate summary judgment in Max's

favor. You win, Max, go home. Yes. Thank you, Judge. Just so I know for future reference, I presume that that's a baseball reference. Swinging and missing. It's not a cricket reference, is it? Or a golf reference? It would be terrible if there was a professional

golfer famous for swinging and missing. I suppose that would be the worst. When he gets it, I mean, he really does a nice job. Who's Andy Dunn, Jesse? Adam Dunn is a famous baseball player who's best known for, as Rob Deere before him, doing what baseball statistics nerds call the three true outcomes, which is the only three things that only have to do with the relationship between the batter and the pitcher, walking, striking out, or hitting a home run.

The three true outcomes. Yeah. Doesn't that sound like something you'd be into? I'm really into that. That is profound. Yeah. It would be the name of a band that I would be really interested in till I realized that they got their name from baseball, and then I would be like disgusted with myself and the world. Is that why you won't listen to Yaz anymore?

That's true. And Yolotango? What about Yolotango? You won't listen to them anymore since you found that out. Oh, that's a baseball reference? It is. I always wondered why. I just thought it was a dumb world music name that they chose and had to stick with.

No, there's a famous story about the New York Mets that involves it. It's too involved to get into, but it involves the phrase Yolotango, and I think it's what they're named after. That means, I've got it, I've got it. Exactly. Presumably a Latino baseball player wanted to catch the ball in his, in his, in his catching mitt. Precisely. Well, what did I know?

Hey, George. And I mean, Georgia and Ira and James, and now I understand your band name. Well, it's been sports. His talk with John and Jesse and guys. See you next time, guys. No, you're all wrong. Add Andy and Max.

First of all, it could not be David Sedaris because of the reference to 1981, which is some years before David Sedaris contributed the Santa Land Diaries to This American Life, the biggest breakout success in public radio history. To be fair, his big breakout success was not on This American Life, the biggest breakout success in public radio history. To be fair, his big breakout success was not on This American Life. I think it was on All Things Considered or Morning Edition. All Things. I think it was All Things Considered, but I'm not sure. But I think that Ira, I love how he segued so nicely between sports history to public radio history. That's pretty much the two poles. Ira did produce the Santa Land Diaries for whichever one of public radio's flagship

news and information programs he produced it for. In the nerdy playground game of running bases, public radio and baseball are the two things that we are constantly running back and forth to and away from. In any case, gentlemen, no, you're wrong. It is a song that I was referring to. I was not going to try to sing it because apparently Doug Benson did that for comedic effect already, which I found when I was searching up the song. It is a song by a post-punk new wave band from the early 80s called The Waitresses. Get it?

Ooh. Get it? Get it. Ah. To paraphrase Gary the Squirrel, get it? Get it? And the band and the song itself is called Christmas Wrapping, where wrapping is spelled W-R-A-P-P-I-N-G. It follows in the short tradition of new wave bands

trying on rap artistry and with medium success. The other person in that tradition, of course, is Blondie, which is actually good. That's a good song. And so is Christmas Rapping. It's also a good song, though the rapping in it is actually good. That's a good song. And so is Christmas Wrapping. It's also a good song, though the rapping in it is pretty awkward. And of course, I did not, and that song does not reference Christmas, which by the way, Judge John Hodgman listeners, at the time of this recording, we are heading like a freight train into Black Friday as we record this. Thanks for joining us on Thanksgiving Eve, guys.

But also, we made a reference to Sadvent, which is the alternative morose Christmas that is celebrated, to the best of my knowledge, by one family in Alabama, Jason and Brandy Sims of Huntsville, Alabama, who were guests on this program a long time ago. So how old are you two guys? 27 and 26. All right. I'm the old one. Max is the oldest. Right. So you were born after this song came out. At the later 80s.

The later 80s. So there's no way you could have known this, and that is why I chose it. In the height of Reagan times. Max, you bring the case, even though there is no question at first read that you are the criminal. Andy is slandering your character by going around town. And what town do you live in, guys? Madison, Wisconsin. Going around Madison, Wisconsin, claiming that you, Max, are rude to waiters and waitresses and servers in bars.

Tell me what's going on, Max. That is exactly what he's doing. Running my good name through the mud, Judge. Hang on, Max. That is exactly what he's doing, running my good name through the mud, Judge. Like every time – like sometimes when we're at a – like the industry that these people are in, which I respect. These people, right? These people.

These people. I'm sorry. These human garbage. Go on. These people work in an industry where they do not deserve basic human dignity. Is that what you're going to say? No, not – I wouldn't phrase it exactly like that. But either way, they work in an industry like where it's their job to provide good customer nervous to customers. I'm always trying to – a good waiter or bartender will frequently check up on their customers and try not to be ignored. Like if someone has an empty drink at a bar, they should kind of notice and say, hey, would you like a refill? I shouldn't have to flag them down. But sometimes when it gets to that point, we say like, wow, I need a refill here? Look, I appreciate that you're immediately on the defense. But a polite gentleman should have nothing to apologize for.

Because you're not wrong. There are times when you require some attention in a bar or a restaurant. And are we talking about bars or restaurants mostly here, Andy? Both. We are talking about each instance, I guess, typically, you answered my question. Stand by, please, sir. Sure. I will have order. There are times in bars and restaurants, both when you require a little attention. And there are some techniques for catching the waiter or waitress's eye. Well, let's just say waiter. Let's just say there was a time in the go-go politically correct 1990s when we were all supposed to start saying waitron, but I hope you don't mind if I gender splice it and refer to waiters or waitresses.

Is that all right, or surface personnel? Sure. Can we please use Waitron specifically for cyborg waiter and waitresses? That's fine. Thank you. That's perfectly reasonable. I don't want to forget our fellow citizens in the singularity. But Max, how do you get a Waitron's attention? in the singularity. But, Max, how do you get a Waitron's attention? Well, I guess my typical technique to start off with is if I see someone walking by and she's like not, and I haven't noticed her, him or her, I should say,

yeah, like going by doing something else or whether you're just like washing dishes, I'll like put my hand up a little in there, hey, excuse me? It'll be, see which Andy just finds hysterical. All right, Andy. It's a tone issue. So how does he – Andy, give me your impression of how Max says excuse me when he says it.

Okay, he says it leaned over the bar with a hand oftentimes very far in the air. He'd snap if he could, I'm concerned. I'm pretty sure. But he says, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me. And then he garners the attention of the perhaps bartender that is helping maybe somebody else with a couple of drinks or perhaps tending to something with his back turned. Oh, I see. Now, Andy, do I detect an accent in your voice of some kind? I'm catching a little, I don't know, Mid-Atlantic Higgins or Thurston Howell III? What's going on? You're bringing me right back to my Yale days. But what accounts for your accent, if you were to say? That's a loaded question. I think it's college. I grew up in Milwaukee and transferred my way all the way to Madison.

That's a big trip west. I should have known. That is a Milwaukee accent if I've ever heard one, sir. Yes, well, people tend to start putting on airs once they hit Madison. Pardon me, but I am from Milwaukee, and this does not comport to my standards. Exactly. No, but I don't mean to make fun of the way you talk, sir. I mean, I guess I did mean to because I was, but seriously.

So you're from Milwaukee, and you moved to Madison to go to the university there? Yep, correct. We've known each other since fifth grade. So, yeah, since Andy and I met when I actually moved, spent the first 10 years of my life living in Charleston, South Carolina, then moved up to the Milwaukee area when I was 10, where I met Andy in the fifth grade. Okay. We've been good friends ever since. Were the two of you in the same fraternity? Neither of us are in fraternities, actually, which is the best part.

We are just caretakers, curators of fraternities. It's way different. Andy, you work at a real estate firm that manages fraternity houses and other student housing. Is that correct? That is correct. And that is your profession? Yes. Yes, indeed.

This is what I'm doing with my life. Okay. That's what you get money for, right? Yeah. I mean, obviously, you've got a lot of other hobbies. Naturally. You've got some sartorial eccentricities that I can tell you're champing at the bit to talk about. And you've got,

and you've got a love of language, but, but you are, you're paid to do this real estate stuff for the time being, right? This is the, this is the case. Yes.

And you have recruited from childhood, your friend, Max, your ill-mannered friend, Max, and you have sent, you sent him into these fraternities as a mole, as a spy. Do they know that he works for you?

Yes, they're well aware. He's not very well disguised. No, they know I'm there. It's not like he's hiding in a secret chamber in the house. He's not like Gary Busey in Hider in the House. Hat tip to Tom Sharpling. I am somewhat secluded in the top floor, to truth be told, in the pent. Hat tip to Tom Sharpling. I am somewhat secluded in the top floor, to truth be told. The penthouse, as I call it, they know I'm there.

Right. And so it's your job to... They're not very threatened. If you observe through the eye holes of the paintings on the wall, hazing that goes a little bit beyond the norm or some undue behavior, untoward behavior. You try to put a cap on it.

And that's technically above my pay grade. I'm not around to really enforce that. So what is your job exactly? To soak up the vomit and blood with a big sponge and then crawl up to the attic and fall asleep under a thin blanket while shuddering at the humanity that you have witnessed? I've seen some things, Your Honor. All right. I've seen some things.

Andy, is Max your employee or are you just co-employed? Are you both – are you colleagues? Technically, he would be an employee, but since we are such good friends, he gets jumped right up to the colleague status, if you will. All right, that's fine. But you have an interest in making sure that he is being a good role model for the young monsters who live in this frat and that he treats other humans with respect and dignity.

Is that not correct? That is true. That is correct, and he's proved fairly functional in that regard because they're likely just not members of the waitstaff. Right. So what other infractions is Max guilty of? This is your moment to jut your chin out above your ascot and say, j'accuse, but specifically with regard to handling of waitstaff and barstaff.

Aside from leaning over the bar and obnoxiously yelling, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, over and over again to someone who has their back turned to him and is busy. Is there anything else that you need to draw attention to that Max has done wrong? Sure. He has garnered us some more than questionable service while we've been eating food for taking the bartender away from other people at a barbecue restaurant that we were at. And then we proceeded to get poor service throughout the Packer game,

and who knows what happened to our food. He has also kind of confronted waitresses that are carrying perhaps empty plates back. They might not even be our waitress. And then asked them for a condiment, a beer, something to that effect. He just doesn't have – he thinks that the waitresses and the wait staff, the wait people, the waitrons are there for his benefit. To serve him specifically and not the entire establishment. And it doesn't quite work that way in my opinion. I don't know if it's relating to if it's why he can't get their attention, if he's looking like he's not making eye contact or what have you,

but it should just take a slight raise of the finger, if anything, and some eye contact, whereas Max requires a hand in the air, some voices to be said, offered, some excuse-mes, which are polite in theory, but the tone, again, I come back to the tone. I'm going to rest my case there. Andy, where did you learn your manners? Your restaurant manners specifically?

By parents and grandparents and people around me, social cues. Max has generated cringes. In posh Milwaukee. But Max grew up on the mean streets of Charleston, South Carolina. You know what I mean? You wear red pants, but that guy wore seersucker until he was nine years old. He doesn't know how the world works. There are no gentle people in Charleston, South Carolina.

That's obviously not true, Max. There are plenty of gentle people, are there not? There are gentle men, some would argue. And no women. Right. So let me, Max, where did you learn your restaurant manners? My restaurant manners came from my mother who by the way is a very big fan of this program but hi mom hi mom you should have taught your son better

well let's get to the achievement she also has a kind of similar aggressive idea that hey like it's been a while since we've interacted with our server to say, hey, excuse me, hey, can we get another Bloomin' Onion or something like that. Now, why are you ordering Blooming Onions? Oh, down in some parts of South Carolina, there's a few restaurants that are famous for making them. Okay. And I like that corporate-y way, but really nicely fried. Good stuff. Yeah, yeah.

No, okay. But you're not eating that food now, are you? No, they're hard to come by up in Madison here. Cheese curds. I guess what I'm saying is like – Cheese curds. I guess what I'm saying is like – Cheese curds. Blooming Onion, of course, is – I don't want to – we're already on the verge of buzz marketing, but that is a registered trademark of a certain chain restaurant. Oh, no. Did you grow up going to corporate chain restaurants?

No, I did not. I remember those – like, I don't know. What's the regular term for it? I know that it has been used in that ad campaign, but I was unaware that it had other origins. Proper nomenclature. Proper nomenclature, sure. I'm glad you got in nomenclature there, Andy. Name is fine.

Easy. Name is fine. Great. Yep, that's fine. So far I've heard about a barbecue restaurant, and clearly you guys are going to bars. Are you going to any fine or medium dining? I mean, because here's the thing. Madison, Wisconsin has some great restaurants.

Yeah, we do some medium dining, but we don't dine fine, really. We're going to, you know, maybe like the, we don't want to name names, but establishments off the square. Nothing over $20 an entree, because we're not, we don't want to name names, but establishments off the square. Nothing over $20 an entree because we don't class like that. So, yeah, it's not... But we tip well. At least I do. You're just a posh Milwaukeean slumming

it in the beer halls of Madison, Wisconsin, I understand. It's rough. Do you ever go to the tornado room? I've been there once. We pass by it pretty regularly. On the way to the Paradise. Why don't you guys go to the Tornado Room?

Does that have a reputation? For steaks? It has a reputation for steaks, and apparently it's a good deal after 10 p.m. Are you vegetarians? Oh, no. We're burger guys. Mostly.

Yeah. All right. Yeah. Then you can treat. Then you don't have to have any manners at all. Good day, sirs. Let me ask you this, Max. Do you think that one thing that I've heard from Andy amidst all of the

fancy words that he's thrown around is that you will sometimes approach a server, maybe who's clearing another table and bringing glasses back to the bar to the kitchen and you'll say, hey, can I get another beer? Is that more or less true i will not get out of my seat and i've approached someone who's clearly bussing a table or taking another another table's order but if they're walking back like towards the kitchen it's like hey a refill of coke would be great and you're always like oh sure that's as far as i'll go there i'm not but but is this some do you do believe – are you a sociopath? Are you able to discern the different faces of the people who are serving you at a restaurant, or do you think that they all share the same hive mind?

That he or she will telepathically alert your server that you need another Coke the moment you say it to them. Do you think they all share the same set of eyes? I kind of doubt it. They all seem like say it to them. Do you think they all share the same set of eyes? I kind of doubt it. They all seem like different people to me. Each of them working very hard. Andy, do your imitation. That's the point. Excuse me?

Excuse me? I'm sorry. No, no. All right. I can see why you find that to be unnerving. I don't do anything. He's exaggerating that. Andy, you're under fake oath.

Are you exaggerating it or not? I'm not. It makes me cringe. He's exaggerating. Put him in fake contempt. My ultimate trump card is it's not like people go bartend or are waiters or waitresses just because they love hanging out at their restaurant. It is a job that they are getting paid for and tipped for. I'm happy to provide tips for good service. These are people who have stressful jobs. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute.

I don't like the way you emphasized for good service when you said I'm happy to tip. I'm happy to provide tips for good service. I didn't like your tone when you said this is a job they're getting paid for. Do you feel it's only appropriate to treat slaves well? Maybe you came off a little passionately there. It's a southern thing. It's part of my soutoutherness, you know. Oh, that's not good either.

Well, there's nothing about you that reads Southern right now. You seem like a scrappy young man from the Bowery circa 1932. I'm never intentionally disrespectful. When you tip him, do you bite on a nickel and then fling it at him? Well, when I throw a clip, I usually just tell him to go to community college. But otherwise, 15% to 20% I think is perfectly reasonable. Have you ever gotten a barkeep's attention by snapping your suspenders? Actually, I did once.

May I ask you to roll back? There was some comment that you made about community college. What was that? I missed that. That could be my tip to a waiter. But that's, yeah, see, that would be kind of a mean joke, that course of joke. Yeah, I know. But you said it, and I didn't hear it.

So your tip to a waiter would be what? Go back to community college. Go back to community college? You never say that to someone, do you? Oh, no, absolutely not. That would be so mean. That's the kind of thing you'd save for a podcast that your parents are probably going to listen to. Oh, they sure will.

Where were you educated, Max? Oh, I was educated at the University of Wisconsin in Whitewater. Okay. What's the difference between that campus and Madison? Oh, that's a subject, Andy. Well, it's a small... I'd like to hear what Thurston Howell has to say about that. Andy? Andy. What's the difference between the Whitewater campus and the Madison campus? Whitewater is more of a commuter campus. They actually tailor to, they've got a great wheelchair basketball team and a wonderful football team that wins division three titles each year.

But it's about maybe roughly less than a fifth the size, I want to say, of UW's campus. It is in a much smaller town. They have a great supper club. What's that spot called? Randy's Fun Hunters Club? No buzz marketing. Okay, no buzz marketing. It's a different kind of community. It's about 45 minutes southeast of Madison and about 50 minutes southwest of Milwaukee, making it a choice spot for many of Wisconsin's aspiring young businessmen

and political scientists and the like. But Madison's much better. I have a question. Sorry to interject here, but did the two of you guys have a discussion before you came on the show about wanting to seem like the worst people in the world? Or does that just come naturally to you? I hold order, order, order. Abhominem attacks are not allowed in this courtroom, Jesse.

What about passive aggressive remarks about wheelchair basketball teams and Division III? They're number one in the nation. Number one wheelchair basketball program in the country i'm not saying any many years in a row that's something that max lauds it's a something to hang the hat on you don't have as many things to hang the cap on when you're in whitewater and when you're a warhawk i just have i just have a couple i what was that last thing a warthog what warhawk they've got a purple eagle as their mascot. It's majestic.

That's in Whitewater? A warhawk? Yeah. All right. They're not badgers, too? No, they should be. But why aren't they? Not everyone can be badgers.

Now, may I presume, Andy, that you were educated at the University of Wisconsin at Madison? Yes. I am a badger. And just a quick question, Max, before I retire to my chambers. You said, aside from making a joke about encouraging people to go back to community college, you would normally tip how much? I'd say 15 to 20 percent. And how often do you not tip a month? I never not tip. Andy, do you have a specific accusation of non-tipping? I know for a fact that Max is non-tipped, but it would be on a drink or two. I mean, he's not

just totally non, not in an eating setting. If he's going in for a beer, sometimes he will not tip, but I don't know exactly how many dollars he tips. He doesn't tip as much as I do, but it doesn't, that's not really the point. He does tip, per se. That's not the issue at hand. A Whitewater boy may simply not have the means that a Madison man has. True, true. If it weren't for me, distinguished alumni. He doesn't have that scholarship since he's in Division III and not Division I. That's tough. What do you tip?

Andy, you're setting the standard here for your friend, Max. What do you tip on a restaurant check, and what do you tip per drink at the bar? What do you tip on a restaurant check and what do you tip per drink at the bar? I tip one to two dollars per drink at the bar at the least. And then at a restaurant tip, I usually go 20 to 25 percent. And it can go more if they're really bad. Sometimes they get 15 percent, but I can only count two or three times that that's ever happened. And finally, Max, I have one final question for you.

Why does Andy talk that way, Max? You know, as many... You've known him since you were 10 years old. And Andy, I want to say this plainly. Like, I dig it. I dig the way you're talking. You've got a really cool voice. But it's not something I associate with Milwaukee necessarily, though I could be wrong.

Does it come from a – have you always spoken this way? Is it your family way of talking? Is there a school thing that happened? What's the explanation? Can either of you provide me an explanation? Well, i could probably get a little insight for you there john like andy is andy much like many other university of wisconsin students are very very proud of themselves and like throwing big words into conversations where you don't really need to throw in big words then often referencing their alma mater and looking down upon anyone who didn't go to that same Buckeye

school. Or no, that's the Badgers. That's my bad there. Buckeye is Ohio State. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. You know where you are at any given moment? All right.

Well, Axel grinded, Max. Andy, am I off base here? All right. Well, Axel grinded, Max. Andy, am I off base here? You've got a very cool, and it's not just the words you choose, but a very somewhat, I would say, stylized sort of cadence of speaking, very sophisticated sounding. Is this something that I'm picking up on wrongly? I'll accept it. I've got it many times before. It keeps me in rhythm. My family's full of euphemisms, so I speak kind of like somebody that might speak in a weird

cadence. What do you mean your family is full of euphemisms? We've got many euphemisms. Do you mean that they're full of malapropisms? It's because if I were to guess that one of you came from Charleston, South Carolina, it would not be you, Max.

You sound like human garbage. But Andy, you've got the talk of a sophisticate. And you even said something that your family is full of euphemisms. I am totally at a loss, sir. What does that mean? I think it's just a way of speaking to people with talking about any number of sort of different situations and then tossing into a nice euphemism that doesn't totally fit for a comedic relief. And that's, I guess, the best way that I can describe it.

It's like the chicken and the pig and the ham and egg breakfast or something like that. The chicken and the pig and the ham and egg breakfast, something like that. The chicken and the pig and the ham and egg breakfast. It's where the chicken is involved and the pig is committed. The chicken gives an egg, but the pig gives a leg. Oh, give me a break, man. Really? Say more of these crazy nonsense words. This is my favorite part part so far i'm fairly sure one of us is having a stroke and whoever is the person who's having a stroke started out talking in cockney cockney rhyming slang andy did you go to private school? No, public school. Max and I were public school. Do your mom and dad talk this way? No, probably not.

Andy's dad talks exactly like him. Okay. And where's your dad from, Andy? He is also from Milwaukee. Born in Boston. Grew up in Milwaukee, Wauwatosa. He's been there ever since. A fine gentleman.

Oh, I don't doubt it. How old was he when he moved from Boston to Milwaukee? Because now I'm starting to, this little Boston Brahmin accent sort of makes a little bit of a sense. How old was he when he moved to Milwaukee? A little too young. I think three or four. My grandfather was at Tufts Dental School, as I understand it. Well, that's what it is. That's a classic Tufts Dental School accent. I know. I used to DJ at WMFO. All right. Now I think I've heard everything I need to hear. And I understand about 30% of it. I'm going back to the tornado room that is my chambers. and I will render my verdict in a moment.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Max, how do you feel about your chances in this case? You know what? I feel that Andy really misled Judge Hodgman in me saying that I can – that I mess with stuff or – also his instance that I snap at waitresses. If you could. If I could. But the thing is I have a million abilities in my life, but snapping my fingers just isn't one of them.

Never been able to do it, yet they accuse me that's how I get attention to them. That's not true. There's all sorts of misleading that went on here by Andy. If you could snap... I'm not disinclined. Because of the tone of your defense, I feel like, Max, maybe if you could snap at waitresses, you would.

I don't think so. I'm inclined to believe that's the case. Andy, how do you feel about your chances? I feel pretty confident. I can see a curveball coming, but I feel like I've set forth a pretty cut and dry argument here. And Max's actions are indeed cringeworthy. So I think we need to bring a stop to this. And this should help because this is an impassioned debate that we have very regularly.

And because we do a lot of socializing, we're social beings. So this happens quite a bit. Andy, is it fair to say that you're confident about a lot of different stuff in your life? That would probably be misguided confidence if that is the case. But, yeah, probably we can go with that. We'll be back with the decision in just a second on Judge John Hodgman. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne.

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that is available online directly to you the consumer at a very reasonable price yeah if you want to take your cooking to the next level remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common they're made in made in save up to 25 this memorial day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. I have been searching very carefully through my dictionary of Caucasian slang terms for some illumination of the chicken and the pig's leg

or whatever it was you were saying. I think that may be a complete neologism. And I am fascinated. You know, one of the reasons that our president, Barack Obama, is so unnerving to people is that he represents a new kind of America, one where traditional power and racial and class and demographic structures are breaking down, where those lines are blurred. are breaking down, where those lines are blurred. And people, particularly those who are disempowered in the real American economy, but come from a tradition of empowerment due to their family class and background, really find it to be unnerving to see this biracial president who's

lived in 17 different states and countries and represents a kind of future of America that is unrecognizable to a lot of people. And I feel that way talking to you guys. You guys represent some form of Caucasian that I have no idea what you are. I got Thurston Howell the third over here talking like the worst guy in Nantucket, but he's from a long line of Milwaukeeans. And then we got Max over here, the man from Charleston, South Carolina, who sounds, if anything, like Ginsburg from Mad Men, who is willing to tell people that they that they ought to go back to community college, even as a joke on a popular semi pop listened to podcast. But meanwhile, this guy who's who's who's who's flagging who's treating service personnel,

Service personnel, waitrons, as though they are literally cyborgs who have been built to serve him, lives in the eaves of a frat house cleaning up vomit of younger people. I don't know what's going on. You guys, and like the levels, I think this is what happens when white people are just isolated too much by themselves. They just turn on each other for the smallest thing. You're having a fight over campuses of the University of Wisconsin. What's it called? Whitewater versus Madison. Warhawks versus Badgers. It's like these are meaningless distinctions to anyone but you two. And there's

so much class stuff that is going on in this case. At first, I was going to be like, well, here's another couple of young people who don't know how to treat other people well. But there's more. There's more at work here. And I don't understand. It's profoundly unnerving, you guys. Profoundly unnerving to me. Somebody who went to Yale and thought he understood white America, but I guess I don't anymore. I want my country back. So I don't know what you're playing at, Andy, with your nomenclature and your euphemisms and your red pants and your diction and your social beings. But I do appreciate, even though I'm not sure I appreciate your snob, your sort of your nose up, Thurston Howell dismissal of the lesser of the University of Madison, University of Wisconsin campuses. I do appreciate that you tip correctly. A dollar or two dollars on every drink, that is reasonable, particularly in Madison,

Wisconsin, in the Middle West, where tips of any kind, I think are really appreciated and not always a hundred percent given. Uh, but I could be wrong. Uh, and, uh, 20 to 25% on a restaurant check 15% if service is really bad, you know, I, I think that you're, you're tipping in the right zone, uh, and you, for the year 2013. And I also think that despite your treating Max as a subhuman for having gone to the University of Wisconsin at Whitewater, you do seem committed to, at least in your shame around your friend,

to treating waitstaff and barstaff as fellow human beings who deserve a modicum of respect. Max, I don't think you intend to be the monster that you are. You clearly know to tip. I don't think, you know, I would like to make it clear that it is the opinion of this court that stiffing on a tip under any circumstances is not allowed, not allowable, not on a restaurant check and oversight with a, when, when you're, uh, when you're buying a drink, drink by drink to miss a tip around of tips in there is fine.

So long as you compensate later on or get the person at the end of the night. Easy, Max. I don't, I don't think you intend to be the monster that you are. And I don't even think you are the monster that you are. I think that you just have a little bit, a little bit of refinement that you need to your approach to wait and bar staff, so that you can make sure that the tips you are giving are serving the purpose that you need them to serve, which is to say thank you for decent service, and more importantly, to invest in better service the next time you come in. Your behavior in a restaurant, and particularly your tips in a restaurant, but even more so, I would say your behavior in a restaurant is an investment in the kinds of service that you wish to receive the next time you come into a place. And that is why I think it's important to tip appropriately generously, even if you're going into a place the first time, but to tip with reckless generosity

if you intend to make the place a regular place that you want to go to. And it is equally important, and I would say more important, to establish personal relationships with the people who are bringing your food, not because they're somehow a special class of humans, but because you want them to be nice to you in future. And people, if you are nice to them, will be nice to you back, and you will all have a great time. It is true what you say, Max them, will be nice to you back and you will all have a great time.

It is true what you say, Max. They are being paid to be there. But that does not mean that you have a license to treat them callously. And while I don't think that you're being a real jerk, and I would say that Andy's suspicion that you would snap or yell garcon or say i need service over here or any of the other things that he suspects of you have been proven in any way that might just be the the fugue state fantasy of his own red slacked mind he's projecting onto you the low class slob that he wants you to be but that said there are a couple things you need to understand. When you are seated at a restaurant where you are receiving service, there is one person who is assigned to you to give you service. The people who are busing your table are not there to take orders. They are helping the person who is coming to you to help you. If you need service, it is appropriate to say to another waiter or waitress or waitron or even

the bus person, could you please send our waiter or waitress or waitron over so I can order something else? That would be okay. Second, you must never yell at someone, excuse me, because that's rude, and particularly if their back is turned to you. That is a surefire way to make sure that you never get service, good service, ever, ever again. The key to all of human interaction, and critically in a restaurant or bar, of human interaction and critically in a restaurant or bar, which is a place where the professional world and the personal world, much like Obama's America, have very fluid boundaries. The key is to treat people with respect and to make eye contact. Wait for eye contact, get eye contact, Make your request politely. Tip furiously. And I swear to you, you will never be in a position where someone's back is turned to you again.

I find in favor of Thurston Howell III. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Andy, how do you feel right now? I feel great, validated. I think that Max and I are about to embark on a whole new journey of having our food not spit in and having great service. I think it's going to be really a great change of pace now that I've garnered the decision here. How are you feeling, Max? Looks like I've been thinking about my life all wrong up to this point.

Yeah, I really do not see the condemnation Judge John Hodgman brought down upon me here. That I really do need to reconsider how I interact with the service industry. Great words to hear. Yeah. I think you guys should just take this as a teaching moment, honestly, to rethink everything about humanity. All of your assumptions about humanity are about half right. And I, and I think you're good guys, but you need to be a little less judgmental and a little bit more open-minded

of the people who, of each other and the people around you. Perhaps. You could be onto something there well gentlemen thank you so much for joining us on the judge john hodgman podcast thank you it was a pleasure so chargement uh uh excuse me bailiff jesse excuse me i need some i need to do the docket over here hey excuse me i need to do the docket are are you doing the same thing oh i forgot i was just trying to i forgot i forgot i forgot the class differential in our relationship are we equals i guess we are whoops yeah Sorry. We're both getting paid, I guess. Why aren't we treating each other more poorly

if we're both getting paid? Hey, Bailiff Jesse, thanks for your service. Here's a nickel. Hey, before we go on to the docket, can I just say, the title of this verdict, Badgering the Waitress, was submitted by our own great Julia Smith. Not only is that a great title, and I hate puns normally, but I had no idea going into this that at least one of these guys was actually

a badger, a student or an alum of the University of Wisconsin. That's amazing. A three-way pun. Three-way pun. Which is the greatest accomplishment in the world of puns. No one's ever done it before. Well done, Julia. And no one will ever do it again, if I have my say.

No, please. Here's a case from Tim. He writes, I'm writing to the court on the matter of holiday travel plans. My girlfriend, Ms. Ledoux, and I are U.S. citizens who moved to London two years ago. Two years ago, she spent Christmas with me and my parents in my childhood home in Boston, Massachusetts. Last year, she couldn't travel for visa reasons and remained

alone in London while I spent Christmas in Beantown. This year, with frequent reminders that I had abandoned Ms. Ledoux last year, I agreed to spend Christmas with her family in Washington, D.C. The dispute I bring before your lordship, I don't know, do you need to be addressed by your lordship by expatriates living in the Commonwealth? Only if you're a...

Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.

And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I.

It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-o-p-p-p-d-c-o-o ah we are so close stop podcasting yourself a podcast from maximumfun.org if you need a laugh and you're on the go a man named andy from milwaukee would i would i accept such frippery well why are you wearing that wig though that's the second question i meant to ask you that at named Andy from Milwaukee. Would I accept such frippery? Why are you wearing that wig, though?

That's the second question. I meant to ask you that at the top, but it is a real lordship-y horsehair wig you're wearing. That's how I get good service in restaurants. The dispute I bring before your lordship arose as Ms. Ledoux began to contemplate the cost and difficulty of travel across the pond. As she and I will both be flying in and out of Boston, Ms. Ledoux has begun to argue my original position, that I should spend Christmas in Boston.

I, in turn, have taken up Ms. Ledoux's old position, i.e. that I should spend Christmas with her family in D.C. Now we're both arguing for positions internally, which we do not hold. The debate has become profoundly confusing. which we do not hold, the debate has become profoundly confusing. I beseech the court of your lordship, Judge John Hodgman, to either disentangle or cut this Gordian knot. Furthermore, I ask that your lordship uphold the decision Ms. Ledoux and I made together, that we both go to Washington, D.C.,

before she balked at the price. All right. First of all, why are you calling your girlfriend Ms. Ledoux? Is she a spy? Is she like a member of the Thunderbirds? Is she a marionette who's driving around in a white Rolls Royce convertible that turns into a rocket? Ms. Ledoux? In London? What?

And why is she having visa problems? What is going on? What is wrong with your girlfriend? What is she? Is she an international criminal? A cat burglaress? Or burglar-tron? To be non-gender specific.

First of all, my first ruling is you should call your girlfriend by a regular name. Although Ms. Led. Sounds pretty sexy. Next. You know what? I don't. If you are going to have all kinds of problems about affording being able to do things that you need to do, like family obligations.

Why are you living in London, the most expensive city in the world? That's something I also do not understand. But I guess you're not being paid to be there. I don't get it. Why is the... Here's the question. My question is, why is the breaking point not the flight from London to America, but the flight from Boston to Washington, D.C.? Couldn't you just rent a car? Or the Acela. You could take the Acela. Yeah, I don't know how cheap the Acela is. The Acela's not that cheap, is it? There are a lot of holes in this story. I think we both agree,

Bailiff Jesse. Yeah, I'm not buying it. This sounds like a cover story from some sort of Eastern European spy. Yeah, and I think the cover story is she realizes that you're both be flying to Boston and then traveling on to D.C. and now she's saying I and then traveling on to D.C.

And now she's saying, I want to just go to D.C. by myself. You should stay in Boston. You're not taking the hint, right? Yeah, I think she's breaking up with you. Yeah, she's not balking at the price of the trip. She's balking at you coming along with her. Maybe she doesn't want you to meet her parents. Maybe she's just not ready to take that step.

Maybe she just wants Christmas by herself. But yeah, I rule in her favor. Even for just calling Boston Beantown, I was going to rule against you. So there you go. I rule to take a shower once in a while so it's not so embarrassing. That's right. I forgot that you had that supernatural sense of smell you can you can smell the litigants off of their electronic mails to the docket i can smell him avoiding trying to take a shower by overwriting that question good point jacob writes my friend

matthew and i have a disagreement with his friend jill jill says it's acceptable to refer to ll cool Wrong. Keep going. Believe me, there's a lot more about this that's wrong, so I can just keep going on the wrongs. You just keep going on the thing. Correct. And if you must refer to him, I would describe it as his given first name rather than his real first name. And if you must refer to him by a single letter, J is therefore the appropriate letter. Wrong. I agree with Matthew, and I make the following argument. If LL Cool were a title like Captain...

Not. It isn't. It would be fine to call him L, much as one might refer to Captain America as Cap. No, it would not be fine. Go on. But as we all know, LL Cool J stands for Ladies Love Cool James. This makes LL Cool a descriptor like The Amazing and The Amazing Spider-Man. I suggest that all hip-hop references should be understood through elaborate comic book metaphors, by the way. And nobody would ever refer to Spidey as Amazey. Only if they were awesome.

Jill is unconvinced. We therefore seek guidance from T.H. Judge J.H. and his distinguished bailiff LL Cool JT. First of all, none of you are entitled to refer to LL Cool J by his first name because of every word that you wrote in that docket. Beyond that, beyond that, I don't know what you're arguing about. L is incredibly vague and would not be an appropriate nickname slash casual reference. LL, if you, would be okay to my ear, at least.

Yeah, LL is what people call him, so call him that. Oh, is that what they call him? See, I don't know, Jesse. Honestly, my deep familiarity with rap music ended at about the time I was driving around to my mom's Subaru, listening to mama says, knock you out. And then after that,

I don't know anymore. So I'll defer to you. Plenty of people call LL Cool J LL, including LL Cool J. So call him LL. LL. That's it, right?

The end? Done. Problem solved. Solved. Now, now you can watch NCIS Los Angeles in peace. Is that the show he's on? That is the show.

I think that's the show he's on. With Robin. Yeah, with Robin from Batman and Robin. Yep. They both have very high Q scores. When do you think is the last time Robin watched Batman and Robin? Do you think it's a Christmas tradition at his house? No, I just think it's like, you know, I'm sure that he wishes it never existed.

You think so? Do you think that Robin is on Chris O'Donnell? Chris O'Donnell, sorry. Chris Evans is Captain America. Cap, as we say. Do you think that he is on NCIS Los Angeles if he was never Robin? If he was just the promising guy? I mean, obviously, maybe if he was never Robin, he would have taken another choice that would have taken his considerable charisma and good looks and talent into a thing that would have made him the movie star that some thought he would continue to be for longer than he turned out to be. But if we presume that that didn't happen,

that the only thing that he didn't do is not become Robin in Batman and Robin, do you think that he would now, today, 15 years later, be NCIS Los Angeles guy? Let me tell you this right now, Jesse. As an occasional on-camera personality, I would be the other guy on NCIS any day of the week. I would love that job. Yeah, well, it's a great job. It's a great job.

That's what I'm saying. Well, on the one hand, it is an artistic nadir in Chris O'Donnell's career in that that is a universally reviled film. It is probably the famousest film he ever made, and it was the thing that said, hey, this guy is definitely a famous person for keeps, right? Yeah, well, I think that that's, I mean, I think that this guy

is a famous person for keeps is the part that maybe got arguable about five or six years after Batman and Robin came out, where people, where he was more of a curiosity. Well, that's why they're looking for a Mark Paul Gosselaar is a star of one of those shows, too, I think. And these guys are both very handsome, likable, charismatic, talented guys.

But I wonder if Batman and Robin isn't the thing that puts Chris O'Donnell over the top even now into getting to be on NCIS LA. Here's what I think about. Here's what I hope for Chris O'Donnell. First of all, loved you in Kit Kittredge and American Girl. Very moving performance and a movie that is actually good. good. Chris O'Donnell, I like your work, and I hope that he is happy that Batman and Robin occurred and enjoyed it for the experience that it was and for the opportunities that it opened, and I hope he is happy where he is now because it's a great job. And I hope that he is not unhappy

for all the reasons that I hope anyone is unhappy. But if he is unhappy, I hope that he does not look and obsess over Batman and Robin as the thing that should have sent him on One Direction but didn't. That's all I hope. I hope that too for Chris O'Donnell. I hope it for everyone. I hope that LL Cool J is happy. And if he's not happy, I hope he doesn't blame toys, although he'd certainly be willing to reason he'd certainly be in his rights to. How often do you think LL Cool J listens to his album Goat, greatest of all time? Twice a week.

Probably about twice a week. That sounds about right. Like if he needs to get pumped for something. Yeah, exactly. Like a really intense scene on NCIS Los Angeles. Oh. Now I'm concerned that if I've said this, I'm never going to get a chance to be third or fourth or fifth lead on any of those long-running shows. The problem is they

all shoot in Los Angeles. I would love to be there. You know where NCIS Los Angeles always shoots is immediately outside our office. They're here like every other month shooting something. I would love to have that job. What a great job. shooting something. I would love to have that job. What a great job. The greatest. I would love to be as

just to have the sheer watchability of a Chris O'Donnell or an LL Cool J. Like I like to watch LL Cool J do stuff. That's what it comes down to. When people say, how do you get on television?

It's just humans got to like to watch it. Yeah. Well, anyway, I'm on the radio. They got to not be disgusted by your mustache. All right, moving on. Okay. That's all we've got this week. Our case name this week came from our producer, Julia Smith.

But if you want to suggest a name for a case, like us on Facebook. Just search for Judge John Hodgman or follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne at Judge John Hodgman. You can also follow MaximumFun.org on Twitter, by the way, at MaxFunHQ. And guess what? We just put MaxFunCon tickets on sale. So come to the mountains of Southern California for a weekend. Hang out with me and the judge and our celebrity and pseudo-celebrity friends and your new best pals from the MaxFun community. And it's a really special, amazing thing.

MaxFunCon.com. I'll second all of that, but do all of those things once you have bought tickets. Don't do it without buying tickets. Don't just show up. Or I will personally escort you from the premises, which may be your thing. If this is LL Cool J or Chris O'Donnell listening, I extend you an invitation.

Please come on up. You have to email me. You don't have to buy tickets, but you do have to email me so I know you're coming. So I can get a bed ready for you. Chris O'Donnell's going to come up there to kick me to death, but that's fine. He's not. We clearly like Chris O'Donnell's going to come up there to kick me to death, but that's fine. I take it. He's not.

We clearly like Chris O'Donnell. Yeah, that's true. Chris O'Donnell is a talented, handsome... There's nothing wrong with Chris O'Donnell. We have no beef with that man. You know who I like? I love all of the Judd Sean Hodgman listeners and non-Judge Sean Hodgman listeners who came to see my shows

in Seattle and San Francisco this past weekend and all the shows that I did this fall. It was truly an amazing experience. The first work that I'd ever written specifically for performing on stage without having written it for any other purpose than to give it to you as comedy in a standing up condition. And it was an amazing experience. And I'm grateful to you all. I'll let you know if I have any more shows coming up. Just keep an eye on johnhodgman.com, specifically johnhodgman.com slash tour. And remember, the Judge John Hodgman podcast is supported in part by Rick and Morty, the new Adult Swim animated comedy from Justin Roiland and Dan Harmon of Community. Rick, a sociopathic scientist, drags grandson Morty on dangerous adventures

full of robot dogs, alien sex offenders, and rectal smuggling through interdimensional customs. Voiced by Chris Parnell, Sarah Chalk, Spencer Grammer, Justin Roiland, and more celebrities. Rick and Morty, Monday nights at 10.30 on Adult Swim. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. Thanks, bye. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast is Thanks, bye. The Judge John Hodgman podcast

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