Judge John Hodgman - Contempt of Carport

Episode Date: January 23, 2019

Gilly brings the case against her husband Steve. Gilly believes that the neighborhood they live in is in the suburbs, but Steve disagrees! Who's right? Who's wrong? Thank you to Jane Hartung for naming this week's case! To suggest a title for a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, contempt of carport. Gilly brings the case against her husband, Steve. Gilly believes the neighborhood they live in is in the suburbs. Steve disagrees. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. My husband, Pat, has a theory about watering our newly seeded lawn. The water has to trinkle from heaven and fall like tender little raindrops. Otherwise, the lawn won't grow properly. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in. tender little raindrops. Otherwise, the lawn won't grow properly. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in. Gilly, Steve, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,

and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his home is neither urban nor suburban, but rather subaquatic? I do. Judge Hodgman? Now, wait a minute.

I would say that my submarine in the Gowanus Canal, it's pretty cosmopolitan. It's pretty urban. And it's awfully comfy. It's all mid-century modern, you know. John, just because your submarine is cosmopolitan and urbane doesn't make it urban. Yeah, well, your neighbors are narwhals. Yes, that's right. The Gowanus Canal is full of narwhals because they're whales, and therefore they do not need oxygenated water in order to live.

Otherwise, all creatures under the sea die in the guanus canal because there's no they can't it doesn't oxygenate properly jesse did you know that that's the problem oh that's why it smells so bad there's not appropriate tidal influx and outflux to get oxygen into that stagnant grody hell stream anyway, the submarine was cheap. James Cameron just called you one day and said, have I got a deal for you? Yeah. Well, you know, I got my Google Alert set for cheap submarines

in a 25 mile radius. Gilly and Steve, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment. Can either of you name a piece of culture that I quoted directly from, did not paraphrase, did not change a word, as I entered this fake internet courtroom? Gilly, you can go first. I'll take a guess and say it was from an episode of House Hunters where they were giving gardening preferences while looking for a house in the suburbs. Gilly, is your guess House Hunters or House Hunters International?

Definitely House Hunters Regular. I see. All right. The lesser House Hunters. I will make a note of that in the guest book. Now, Steve, it falls to you. What is your guess? Is it House Hunters International by any chance?

It is not. It's some sort of dystopia described by Malvina Reynolds. Some sort of dystopia described by Malvina Reynolds? Wow. What an alarming combination of vagueness and specificity. What an intriguingly show-offy guess. I don't know who Malvina Reynolds is. Who is that person?

She sang the song Little Boxes full of ticky-tacky. Right. Can you sing it for me? Little boxes, little boxes, little boxes full of ticky-tacky. Good job. You know what? That's beautiful.

You get a lot of credit for just going ahead with that. I feel like I'm Mary Louise Parker And I'm living weeds Oh right Was that the theme song for the TV show Weeds as well? Yeah I believe it was I liked Steve how you started that out To the tune of Silver Bells

The Christmas Carol Little boxes, little boxes Full of holiday cheer Endless streets Are lined with ticky tacky That is an interesting and apt guess Because of course that song is about suburbia And it is not veiled in its contempt For life in a tract home

But all guesses are wrong Steve, before I reveal the answer, before we started the recording, the engineer there at Colorado Public Radio did a very common microphone test by asking you both what you had for breakfast. And you said something that I wanted to hear again, because I missed it. What did you say? I said for breakfast, I had a mug full of oatmeal and I use one packet of oatmeal and I take it over to the Keurig machine and I hit the four ounce button there and I get the perfect consistency of oatmeal. That's guys with systems, ladies and gentlemen. One of our favorite things on the

podcast is that guys tend to have a need to come up with new systems to get things perfect. Like for example, making your wife water the lawn by holding the sprayer above her head so that the lawn is tricked into thinking that there are tender little drops from heaven, which is what I quoted as we came into the courtroom. And I was quoting from Bill Owens' great book of photographs, Suburbia. And Suburbia, I don't know if you have this book, Jesse, but I need to get you a copy, and everyone should put their hands on a copy. But in 1968, David Owens, a photographer in Northern California, and found that a lot of the countryside there was being built upon,

that suburbs, this was the boom. This was like the height of the boom of building suburban communities. And he started taking photographs of the people who were moving into these homes and who had made their lives in suburbia. And the book was a huge cultural moment because there had not been really a documentation of suburbia. If you read the quotes on the back from like the New York Times and all those East Coast elitist newspapers like the Boston Globe, you know, they pointed out like, you know, it's loving and scathing, rouses pity, contempt, laughter, and self-recognition because the book was really taken to be an indictment of suburbia. But in fact, when you look at the photos, to be an indictment of suburbia. But in fact, when you look at the photos, he turns a very loving lens upon the many different kinds of people who are making a new life for themselves in suburbia.

And he quotes them and these little elliptical quotes about their lives, some of which are really funny, some of which are quite moving, and some of which confirm that in heteronormative married couples, a guy's tendency to form systems, to think that he knows better and to come up with new systems for doing things stretches back at least to 1968. We have evidence here in this book of this poor woman who's being made to hold this hose in a ridiculous manner because her husband has a theory. to hold this hose in a ridiculous manner because her husband has a theory. There's also a photograph of a son complaining about his dad because his dad makes him climb up in the trees as fall approaches and pick off all the leaves so they can rake them all off at once instead of having to do it more than once.

Incredible photo of it. Steve is nodding like he understands the logic behind picking all of the leaves off the tree at once. Yeah. It's a tremendous book, and whoever wins this case, I will get you a copy. Make sure that you guys give me an address for your suburban or maybe not suburban home in Denver, Colorado. Isn't that where you guys live? It is. Right. And your contention, Gilly, is what? That you live in the suburbs or no? Correct. I believe we live in

the suburbs and Steve believes that we live in the city. Okay. And what do you do there in Denver? I work for the city and county of Denver. I'm a property manager and airline affairs manager for Denver International Airport. Okay, I'm still here. I'm just speechless. Do you know how terrified I am of that airport, don't you? I do. To clarify for our listeners who do not know about my obsession, and by the way, it is not my solo obsession, with the Denver International Airport. Some years ago, the airport that was close to Denver was closed so they could build a new airport, which they built it how many miles outside of town, would you say, Gilly?

About 20. About 20 miles in the middle of an enormous patch of gated off land. It's like this weird castle in the middle of a barren field. And there are a lot of conspiracy theories about this airport because of where it's located, how much land was appropriated for it that was not used, the length of construction, the incredibly terrifying statue of a blue horse that spits fire in front of it. There's an incredibly weird dedication marker in the airport that is inscribed with the square and compass of the Freemasons, which are an international fraternal order that some people ascribe a lot of weird conspiracy theories to. And then also it's dedicated by the New World

Airport Commission, which is not only overtones of New World Order, which a lot of conspiracy theorists worry about, but the commission doesn't seem to exist. There's no record of it ever existing. There's a lot of mysterious stuff going on. So are you here? Are you a member of the secret world government that's growing aliens in the basement or sub-basement of this airport? I can't confirm or deny anything. I do work for the non-shadow government, but it is a very big building with a lot of offices where a shadow government could be operating. Let me ask you this. Are you working for the federal government? No. No, I work for

the city government. Okay. So you're still being paid as of this recording. That's correct. I'm glad to hear that. All right. So you work at the airport. You're a property manager. And Steve, what do you do? I'm a paramedic for Denver Health Hospital in Denver, and we cover the city and county of Denver. So you have some familiarity with the city of Denver. Yes. All right. So you're saying that one of you works for the city and county of Denver and the other works for the city and county of Denver. Different emphasis, yes.

That is exactly what we say. You contend that you do not live in the suburbs. What is the neighborhood in which you live, Steve? We live in a neighborhood called University Hills. And is that within the city limits of Denver? It is indeed. So why would that not be the city of Denver? Why would that be a suburb, Gilly? So when I think of the suburbs, our neighborhood is very much

historically suburban. It was built in the 1950s to accommodate the World War II veterans who were coming home who needed cheap housing to raise their families. Those box homes that you see that were built in the 50s and built en masse in the suburbs. And that is our neighborhood right now. The developer built four models of the same house repeating in tracks. One of those models was called the Suburban. Okay. So it really has that historically suburban feel. And even though it's expanded and has changed in the last 50, 60 years,

people have come in and torn down some of the old houses and built up more of the McMansion, builder special, very large houses. But it still maintains that outside of the city kind of feel. So, you know, Steve, I mean, what Gilly describes is essentially the definition of the American post-war suburb. Development after the war when GIs were coming home, people had more disposable income, more people were entering the middle class. They had cars so they could get out of the central business areas of the city, even if there wasn't mass transit. And entrepreneurs building cookie cutter homes all in a row. Little boxes, little boxes, little boxes, Steve. So why do you think you don't live in the suburbs? Well, I agree that when the neighborhood was built, it was a suburb, much like many of

the neighborhoods within a couple of miles of downtown were at one point a suburb. But as the urban area has sprawled out it has become part of the city how how so like what you got a you got a chipotle there now we do that's is that a marker of a city i don't know about that when i think of like markers of the city i think of being able to walk places. I think of a little bit less homogenous kind of areas. And I do have that picture when when the neighborhood was built, it was this kind of like little boxes full of ticky tacky sort of homogenous area. But since then, in the 50 years since the neighborhood was built, there's been enough.

But since then, in the 50 years since the neighborhood was built, there's been enough. Oh, well, so give me some examples of the kind of crazy downtown nightlife that's been coming up in University Hills. Where's the main drag? We're going to go to that cool coffee house and that bar with the guy with the mustache and everything else. So we have, within about a 10-minute walk, we have two grocery stores. We have a movie theater that's been there for a long time called the Chez Artiste. There are a number of different kinds of restaurants, most of them sort of chain restaurants. We can walk down to the bike path, walk over to the light rail station and everything that we need is within a 10 minute walk well it sounds

like a lovely place to live is there a university nearby are there hills yeah or those both invented there's a university maybe less of the hills depending on your definition i don't know is colorado famous for hills of any kind i think colorado is famous for being entirely flat right yeah that's my understanding. I don't know, Steve. It just seems to me like you don't want to live in a suburb and therefore you're going to say that the suburb that you live in is not a suburb. Well, I think that the definition of suburb and the definition of city might not necessarily be mutually exclusive, of city might not necessarily be mutually exclusive nor really even on the same the same idea is there another part of town where you'd like to live no no well no oh no well what there are there are many parts of denver that are great places to live including university hills of course yes some of the best parts may be a

little out of our budget yeah i think is what he's getting at i understand you're getting paid illuminati dollars you can't spend those everywhere people ask questions can't have that yeah exactly so and then you have to you know know, disappear them and the whole thing. Windowless vans have to come and take them. You have to feed them to the giant scary blue horse statue. It's a big deal. I get it. But if money were no object, Steve, where would you where would you live in Denver, if not the world? Oh, because I'm going to give you I'm going to I'm going to make this interesting. Whoever wins this case gets a copy of Suburbia by Bill Owens. And you know what I'm putting inside there?

What? A check for $5 million. Yes. If it's me, I will send you an Illuminati thank you card. Oh, don't think I haven't gotten them. Tell those guys I've moved. Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor. We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone

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Court is back in session. Let's return to the courtroom for more justice. I had this Instagram contest on my Instagram, John Hodgman. And I was putting Thinking Putty, which is like silly putty but fancy, on top of things and letting it sort of melt over them and then make people guess on Instagram what they were, like a lemon or half a lime or whatever. And I put Thinking Putty over this novelty star wars tiki mug that i got of an obscure character called salacious crumb who was jabba the hutt's

little weird cackling pet and i said who was that that was steve steve i find in steve's favor this is the sound of a gavel well Well, that was what I was not expecting, Steve, was how much salacious crumb has gotten into the minds of people, at least who subscribe to my Instagram. I imagine it's a self-selected population of nerds, so I should have known. Salacious crumb also reminds us of our cat. Well, wait a minute.

Where is the evidence of your cat that looks like salacious crumb? I didn't see that in the evidence that you submitted. yeah okay what's your cat's name crumb mabel screech what you changed the name of the cat just then she has a nickname and it is screech all right that's another episode of judge john hodgman for sure let's try to stay on this one but the point i'm trying to say is in this other long digression that I'm doing, and I apologize, you guys, but I said, whoever can guess this, I'll pay cash Mo value, you know, internet you a hundred dollars. I thought I was in the clear. Five people guessed. Now I only promised it to one. The second person I felt bad for, because she's a follower of my Instagram,

and I said, well, why don't I send you the mug? And she said, great. And then I left Maine, and I left the mug behind. I felt bad. I'm like, I've got to get her this mug. Maybe I'll just buy one online and send it to her directly. And you know what? They don't make them anymore,

and now that salacious crumb tiki mug is worth $450. So now I'm in a real bind, whether I honor my agreement or not, because I don't want to give away $450 worth of salacious creme tiki mug. Sorry, Moscow is burning on Instagram. I'll make up my mind soon. But if I gave you $5 million, Steve, this is the point.

If I gave you $5 million, where would you want to live? Oh, man. You know, Denver really is a great place to live sure not only do we both have family here but it's a great it's a great place where there's a city where that has everything you need but mountains nearby and you don't have to drive for more than an hour to be all by yourself that may be what i order you to do if you don't win go be by yourself someplace yeah no i get i get a chamber of commerce you're gonna stay in denver what what part of denver are you gonna move to and why i would love to live in the montclair or or park hill neighborhoods that are older than our current neighborhood, full of sturdy brick houses that kind of give you that quiet neighborhood feel

but are still very much right there in the city. So are the brick houses attached to one another? Are they row homes or are they freestanding? They're kind of like craftsman Victorian-style homes okay all right all right i got you and they're closer to what's the what's downtown in denver what's that called downtown denver i think the central business district is really the heart of downtown cbd does anyone live there or is it just like a dead zone that people only go to during the daytime to work on their jobs they have high-rise condo buildings, but mostly where people go to work.

Right. High-rise condos, though, I mean, that's the city, right? Mm-hmm. That's city living. I'm not sure I would want to live in the CBD, but Montclair sounds pretty nice. What do you think of that, Gilly? Where would you live if I gave you guys $5 million and it were your choice? In Denver or in the world.

Oh, all right see this is interesting now somebody just got an email from james cameron because because uh steve immediately started defending denver but you're ready to to jump off these mountains and go someplace else well I'll let you answer both questions for yourself, in Denver or the world. Sure. Denver is great. And I agree with Steve in his choice of neighborhoods,

Montclair or Park Hill. Cranmer Park is another one that's very nice and very similar to how Steve described the other neighborhoods. But in the whole world, I would definitely move to Toronto where $5 million could buy you half a studio apartment. Are you from Toronto?

I am. Okay, phew. I have never heard someone want to move to Toronto. I've often thought about moving to that hotel in the Sky Dome. For a while, John, Toronto Blue Jays star Roberto Alomar lived in that hotel. I believe at the time it might have been a Hard Rock Hotel, something like that. But there was a hotel in the Sky Dome. And as a 12 year old, I could not imagine anything better in the world than to be a superstar baseball player who lives in the baseball stadium. It's pretty awesome. And I'm going to get letters from people in Toronto. I

love you, Torontonians. I'm not saying your city isn't great. It is great. You gave us the gift of Ennis Esmer. But I also, I just had never heard someone go, if I could live anywhere in the world, it would be Toronto. But now that I know it's your home and you love it, wonderful. And Toronto is a city. That's a city, right, Gilly? Oh, very much so. Yeah. So let's focus on Denver, because guess what?

I'm not giving either of you $5 million. And Toronto shall forever be but a dream for you, Gilly. I apologize. Now that we've identified that, what was the neighborhood again? Montclair? Oh, sure. Montclair. Montclair.

Montclair. Now that we've identified that, what was the neighborhood again? Montclair? Oh, sure. Montclair. Montclair. Would you say that that is substantively different, less, more suburban than University Hills? You know, it's funny. If we exist in a city-suburb gray area, then Montclair, to me, also exists in a similar gray area in the sense that it's very much more historic to Denver. It was part of the original city boundaries, I believe, which is really neat. And the architecture is much less suburban, but it has similar, like things are walkable, but not super local. It's not super dense. So even though it's houses, it's older. Yes. Okay. I would say compared to our neighborhood, it is more city, but not aggressively so. Right. Okay. Gotcha. In my

mind. Yeah. Because there are really only a few real cities in the world. And I'm sorry, Denver isn't one of them. We're talking about New York City. That's a city. Toronto, obviously. Paris, We're talking about New York City. That's a city. Toronto, obviously. Paris. London. San Diego.

Buenos Aires. San Diego. Oxford, Mississippi. Columbus, Ohio. That's it. Those are the cities. Hong Kong. Shanghai.

If you are interested, listener, in all of the different neighborhoods of Denver, Gilly submitted some evidence, including a wonderful map of Denver neighborhoods, which is available for my perusal right here in front of me and for your later perusal or perusal right now if you're not driving, over the Judge John Hodgman show page and also at the Judge John Hodgman Instagram account. And here I am looking at a map, and I see that the CBD has been outlined and I see University Hills has been outlined and you're this is to show how far away you are from CBD is that right Gilly yeah and where is Montclair in this map a couple miles north of University Hills so a couple miles closer to uh the CBD yeah got it it is a little more east of University Hills. And Gilly, you

mentioned the architecture of the homes in your neighborhood and you sent some photos. So here I'm looking at one, two, three, four, five, six photos. And I would say the ones on the left are some pretty traditional boxy suburban looking homes they kind of look like you know when you're playing sim city and you and you've only put down low density roads you know what i mean like a sim like a sim starter home are these other homes on the right hand side this is these really do look like once once your sims some money. What's going on here? Tell me, Gilly. Yeah.

So these are all houses that are currently on the market in our neighborhood. So I just took pictures from the realtor website. And on the left are those box homes, the original ones to the neighborhood. Our house looks very similar to those. And then on the right are the homes that people come in and they will tear down those box homes and then build these very, very large homes on those lots that look very trendy, very suburban to me. And then they sell them for quite a bit more money. Yeah, I think we can go ahead and stipulate that the examples you've given in the right-hand column, the column of newer homes built on the lots of the older homes are characterized by their profound distastefulness. Their trendies are ugly, ugly homes.

They're trendy in the sense that the trend is severely downward. I wasn't being choosy about the homes that I picked. I picked very randomly on the website. So I wasn't trying to make them super ugly. But yes, that is how they look. Yeah, I mean, I'm stunned that none of these are what the architectural style they call Italianate, which is to say supposed to look like, I guess, like a Tuscan villa in 1994. Like a Tuscan villa in 1994? No, this one on the top right is like they, it's, it, it looks like an AI fell down the stairs.

And got about 15 different home models mashed up in its brain and tried to imagine what a human would want to live in because it's like it it features differently slanting roofs and one two three four different front facing surfaces there seems to be wood there seems to be brick there seems to be stucco and then there seems to be sort of gray siding it is a real mishmash. It really looks like a computer designed home. That's actually from a pretty well-developed architectural school, John. Pointy garbage? Well, I'm glad you guys live in one of these other homes, these little cute boxes. They're adorable. And they are in their own way historic, right? They're adorable.

And they are in their own way historic, right? Definitely. And it's as much space as we need. And it's really neat to kind of see how people have put their mark on the house in the 60 years since it's been built. It's been expanded a little. People have torn down some walls, painted some different things. It's really cool to see how everyone has made it their home while they've lived there. And then you also sent in an appraisal report from your official home appraisal when you purchased the property and you say the appraiser noted this neighborhood as suburban as opposed to urban.

Correct. Including the zoning code SU, which is Denver code for suburban. Steve, this is a preponderance of evidence. And it's really hard. I mean, there is a preponderance of evidence. And it's really hard. I mean, there is a zoning code here from Denver, your favorite city in the world. Why is it so important to you that this not be a suburb? You know, when I think of the suburbs, I think of sort of like beige, homogenous people storage with a lot of chain restaurants and yeah like where you live it yeah yeah yeah and and chain chain well no we also have we also have non-chain

restaurants no i think of polo shirts and cable tv and man caves and just kind of polo shirts and cable TV and man caves and just kind of homogeny. And I've always lived in this city of Denver, and I've always liked how even for maybe not, like you say, a real city, it might be there is a little bit of everything. Denver's a real city. I was just being silly. I mean, I think we were being serious when we said it's no San Diego.

It's definitely no San Diego. I also work for Denver Health, the hospital that was a part of the city for 20 years ago. I've been there for 10 years and I really enjoy the work that I do there and I really enjoy, you know, kind of representing the city and in that way

and it feels it feels wrong to to be associated with the suburbs or the not city well you're within the city limits but your idea of repping for the city is going on a podcast saying my neighborhood is a suburban hellhole full of fake people in polo shirts no offense to anybody from the suburbs well wait a minute is that too late full of fake people in polo shirts. No offense to anybody from the suburbs. Well, wait a minute. Is that too late? Are those, but you claim that this is not a suburb.

So may I presume that you, that your neighbors are not what you fear the suburbs contain? That they're nice people who don't just wear polo shirts or they have different sorts of lives? Yeah, I think that our, the neighbors that are very close to us are very different. And there's enough variety in the neighborhood that it doesn't feel like the beige suburbs. Is there diversity in your neighborhood? Economic, cultural, ethnic, racial?

Yes. All right. And is there a neighborhood in the city of Denver, within the city borders, that you would point at, Steve, and say, no, that is a suburb. That is everything I fear and love. That is exactly what I, as a 32-year-old man, am terrified of becoming. And therefore, I must claim that I live in a city and not in a suburb. Yes, there's a neighborhood called Green Valley Ranch. Of course there is. That is a suburb, right? You don't even have to say another word.

Green Valley Ranch. It's on the way to the airport. And there is a suburb, right? You don't even have to say another word. Green Valley Ranch. No, so it's on the way to the airport, and there is a corridor. The 56th and Piccadilly, you stand on the corner, and on one corner is beige, homogenous, cookie-cutter housing, and on the other corridor is, I think that's actually the Kansas border. It's just a field. I actually have a major development going up there. The self-parody at Green Valley Ranch. Maybe you've heard of it. Have you talked to any of your neighbors about their thoughts on this subject, Steve? Like, do people agree with you

or disagree with you? I have not. Some of Gilly's co-workers live in the neighborhood. I can't believe I'm about to say this. We actually asked our next door neighbor. Oh, yes. And she sided with Steve. She did. That's very interesting for a number of reasons. All right.

If I were to find in your favor, Gilly, what would you have me order? That Steve stop talking about this? He would absolutely have to admit that we live in the suburbs. And then he would also have to, we like to grill in our backyard, two very suburban things over the summer. And I would have him purchase a apron that says something suburban akin to kiss the cook, just to emphasize how suburban we are. You like being suburban, Kelly.

I am neither here nor there. I love our house and I love our neighborhood, so I'm okay with whatever it is. Do you think Steve doesn't love the neighborhood? I think he likes it. I think maybe he has higher aspirations in the future for a more historical neighborhood like the one that he grew up in, Park Hill, but I think he likes it. I think maybe he has higher aspirations in the future for a more historical neighborhood like the one that he grew up in, Park Hill. But I think he likes it. Is Park Hill in Denver as well? It is, yes. Steve, what would you have me order if I were to find in your favor? Well, certainly I would ask that Gilly admit to everybody that she knows that she lives in the city secondly i would like for us to

have no activities outside of the city of denver for one month and spend no money outside of the city for one month and thirdly some sort of city oriented tattoo for me or for you for you well that's not on the table i do this court does not order order people to modify their bodies you can modify your own body what would your dream denver tattoo be in my capacity as bailiff i hereby order that you both get the following city-oriented tattoo a san diego style burrito with French fries sticking out of it. You know, a couple of Halloweens ago, Gilly dressed up as Blucifer, the horse out there at DIA. That's right. I forgot that that terrifying, fire-breathing, blue, huge stallion sculpture is called Blucifer.

How is it possible that we don't have a picture of that in our evidence blucifer doesn't allow photographs so tattoo of blucifer well we'll see if i ruled in that way all right it's time for me to go into my very downtown submarine chambers here beneath the Gowanus Canal. And I'll be back in a moment with my ruling. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Gilly, how are you feeling about your chances? I'm not sure. I felt pretty good when I came in, and now I really don't know.

It seems as gray as ever. Steve, how are you feeling? I think I'm looking uphill. How far do the two of you live from Sweet Action Ice Cream? We would have to get into the car to drive there, but it's about four or five miles. It's close to my work. I was going to say three miles. Pretty close. You know, my co-host Jordan and I once went and bought a thousand ice cream cones for strangers there. I bet you guys weren't there. No, but I wish we were. I find in favor of none of you. We'll see what the judge has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. And remember, no running in the halls.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. You may be seated. So, you know, Gilly said that this is a gray area, and it really is. I mean, this is, Denver is one of those cities that has spread out. Los Angeles is a world-class city, but it is really a collection of suburbs, right? Downtown Los Angeles, the thing that looks like a city is also the place people are least likely to go to unless they're going to go listen to a podcast

at the theater at the Ace Hotel or whatever. And this is the quality of the city of Denver itself. You are within the city limits. You are not outside of the city. You commute to work, which is a classic element of the suburbs. But at the same time, you have discovered and developed a walking distance life that is more common to the non-suburbs, to the city. It is obviously a historic suburb in the classic definition of suburb. And yet it has grown and changed with the time, both with the incursion of these horrible McMansions and the erasure of what is now historic quality of the neighborhood. It's not quite the same fancy pants, older history of the arts and crafts neighborhood that Steve would prefer to move into. But you are

living in a historic home that is representative of a certain kind of architecture that we would call suburban. But on the other hand, Gilly went over to her neighbor's house to ask her a question in person. And that's not a thing that happens in the suburbs. Normally, at least in our idea of what the suburbs are the suburbs are exactly what steve fears homogenous tiny fortresses where no one leaves their home they all wear polo shirts for some reason and gradually age into sameness and death it is why people fear the suburbs but here's the thing everything's a thing. Everything's a gray area. Everything's a gray area. This is what is driving Steve so crazy. Because Steve is living amidst the markers, the clear markers of suburban life. You look at these photos, folks,

on our Instagram page, Judge Sean Hodgman, or on the show page at MaximumFun.org, you're going to be like, yeah, these are the suburbs. These are suburban houses. He doesn't want to live in a suburb because he has seen Green Valley Ranch. He has seen that place that is neither green nor a valley nor a ranch. And he detests the phoniness

with an almost Holden Caulfield-like way. Steve, you're a snob. You're a snob about the suburbs because not even the suburbs are the suburbs that you imagine them to be. Not all of them anyway. And this book, Suburbia, as I said, when I came into the courtroom,

what is the revelation is that while almost everyone in this book is white, for sure, they were the dominant members of this suburban middle class. They're not exclusively white. You have a more diverse neighborhood, it sounds like, than exists in suburbia. But the diversity of point of view and way of life that is represented in this one community is astonishing. On the one hand, you have dads telling their kids

to pull the leaves off the trees and the most typical suburban family sitting around a TV, everything that would probably make you scream inside, Steve. But then you have young couples who are like, we just love having sex. It's incredible. And in every one, there are families that have found a place where they can build a home and a life and a world, particularly in 1968, where their moms and dads and families maybe never owned a thing in their lives.

it before the show, was that the myth of the suburbs of being this place of no imagination, no fun, no young people hugging and kissing, no cool people, no life, is a myth that is started by us snobs in the big cities of New York City and Toronto and stuff. It is a sniffy way, as David Halberstam points out in his introduction to the book, the people who turn their noses up at the suburbs are the cultural critics usually are coming from generations of middle and upper middle class life. These people, this was the entrance to the middle class. The suburbs are noble and honorable, despite a lot of problems that they also cause. But there's nothing intrinsically wrong with them. You like your neighborhood. You like your neighborhood so much

that you don't want to call it a suburb. The gray area that you're also facing, of course, is that you're getting older and you don't, you're 32, 30s is a hard transition. You don't want to become that dad who wears a kiss the cook apron because it's such a cliche. No one wants to be a cliche.

They want to be interesting for the rest of their lives. That's why the idea of identical houses makes certain people really, really nervous because they're just like, I don't want to be like everyone else. I don't want to become a cliche the way my parents did. But guess what? Your parents weren't cliches. I'm not saying anything about your parents, but, you know, the people who live in suburbs aren't cliches. They're real human beings, too.

So, look, I can't help but say this is a suburb. Historically, it's a suburb. By looks, it's a suburb. But I am glad to say that suburbs, now as they were then, are not the horror shows that you imagine them to be. That one house is terrifying. But culturally, the suburbs that you hate is more in your mind than it is in the world that you live in. So I have to find, as you might have guessed, in Gilly's favor here. And I would ask you only to embrace the grayness of the fact you live in a suburb, in a traditional suburban home, and appreciate the history, not just the arts and crafts history that everyone wants to get their hands on over there in Montclair, but the history of what the suburbs were and what they allowed people to do, what they allowed generations of people to do, which was to create a life for themselves back when a middle class really existed and there wasn't the same kind of wealth inequality that we have today.

Enjoy your neighborhood. Your neighborhood is University Hills and no way am I going to make you wear a kiss the cook apron because that would be mean but I do find in Gilly's favor. You live in a suburb that is changing and a neighborhood that you like

and that should be good enough. And I'm going to send you guys this book, but I'm not sending anyone any more tiki mugs because they're too valuable. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge Sean Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom. Steve, how do you feel? Well, he made some very good points. I think the fact that it is a gray area is very much appreciated,

and I'm glad it's a gray area and not a beige area. When you get the tattoo, don't write San Diego burrito underneath it, because in San Diego they don't call it a San Diego burrito. They call it a California burrito because San Diego is the greatest city in California. Okay. Gilly, how do you feel? I am kind of surprised, actually. I thought for sure, because it's within the city limits, that the judge would rule that it was in the city and that because of that gray area. But I am surprised and delighted and I will keep his advice to Steve in mind for myself as well. Gilly, since you won the case, if you want, you can just get carne asada fries

instead of the burrito. It's your choice. Thank you both for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I.

Ah, it'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah! We are so close.

Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Hi, I am Laurie Kilmartin and I'm Jackie Kish. Together we host a podcast called The Jackie and Lori Show. We're both stand-up comics. We recently met each other because women weren't allowed to work together on the road or in gigs for a long, long time. And so our friendship has been unfolding on this podcast for a couple of years. Jackie constantly works the road. I write for Conan and then I worked the road in

between. We do a lot of standup comedy. And so we celebrate standup and we also bitch about it. We keep it to an hour. We don't have any guests. We somehow find enough to talk about every single week. So find us, you can subscribe to the Jackie and Lori show at MaximumFun.org or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, bye. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. We've got Swift Justice coming up in just a second. But first, our thanks to Jane Hartung for naming this week's episode, Contempt of Carport. If you'd like to name a future episode, be sure to like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman, hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJHO, and check out the Max Funds subreddit to discuss this week's episode. We're on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. You can see the evidence

from this week's case, including those distasteful houses there. This week's episode recorded by Joe Pestovich at Colorado Public Radio, our producer, the ever capable Ms. Jennifer Marmer. Now, swift justice, us answering your small disputes with quick judgment. Kristen asks, do you put lettuce on hot submarine sandwiches like a Philly cheesesteak? I say no. Husband says yes. Husband is not totally incorrect this time. Wow. Yeah, he's not totally correct either. You can put lettuce on a Philly cheesesteak, but when you do it, two things happen. One, people in Philadelphia are going to write articles about what a monster you are. And two, it will become a cheesesteak hoagie. Even though people in Philadelphia are going to write articles for alternative weeklies

about what a monster you are, based on my internet research just now about this, to confirm my own memory, if you order a cheesesteak hoagie, that is a Philly cheesesteak with lettuce, tomato, onion, or just lettuce or whatever, there is still a thing called a cheesesteak hoagie, and it is a real sandwich. And it is its own kind of thing. It is not exactly a Philly cheesesteak. So in this sense, Kristen is correct. But a cheesesteak hoagie is a real legitimate sandwich. I've had one, and it's delightful.

No sandwich should become a totem. Put whatever you want on a thing. Obviously, a cheesesteak is a sandwich because you can cut it in half. You know, John, as a native San Franciscan, I don't have strong feelings about Hoagie's submarine sandwiches and the like, but I do have a corollary strong feeling. Yes. And that is that you can put lettuce in a burrito,

but you will achieve two things. Number one, you will make it a hot salad, which as we know is only of interest to Nick Weiger from the Doughboys. And number two, you will stop being friends with me. I would never do such a thing to you. Never, ever, ever. Thank you. So there you have it.

For once, the husband is correct. That's about it for this week's episode. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO or email Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. No case is too small. We will see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. Podcast!