Judge John Hodgman - Coq Au Ban

Episode Date: December 27, 2017

Gideon brings the case against his wife, Cynthia. He wants their family's chickens to be free range, but Cynthia says they have destroyed her garden. Who's right? Who's wrong? Thank you to Jesse Madsen for suggesting this week's title! To suggest a title for a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, cock on ban. Gideon brings the case against his wife, Cynthia. He and their son have been raising chickens in the backyard. Cynthia's upset that the chickens have destroyed her garden. She says they need to be better contained. Gideon wants them to remain free range. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. At the time, my experience with farm animal killing had been limited to chickens. Together with two other families, I've killed hundreds of them. limited to chickens. Together with two other families, I've killed hundreds of them. Killing any animal is not something to be taken lightly, but I've found that I have no real conflict with

chicken killing. After 12 weeks of voracious consumption, meat birds are ready to go, their purpose served. At least that's the story I prefer to tell myself. With pigs, that story starts to fall apart. End quote. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help your God or whatever? Yes, I do. I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that ain't nobody can fence him in? Yes. Yes. Very well. Judge Hodgman? Give me land, lots of land,

and the starry skies above. Don't fence me in. I know that song. Thanks, Jesse. You're welcome. Now it's stuck in my head. My little holiday gift to you, friend.

Gideon and Cynthia, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can either of you guess the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom? Cynthia, let may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can either of you guess the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom? Cynthia, let's start with you.

I cannot. I know, but you have to make a guess. That's part of the fun for me. Probably exclusively for me. Chicken Run. Chicken Run. Oh, I wish I had thought of that one. That is a great movie by the Ardmore Studio,

unfortunately featuring the voice of Mel Gibson. But he's a very genial voice actor. We didn't know what we knew then. Chicken Run. Rocky. That's right, yeah. But you can't guess that one also, Gideon. Oh, no, sir.

You have to guess another piece of chicken culture. There's so many options. You know what? That's not what it seemed like to me this afternoon, so I'm. You have to guess another piece of chicken culture. There's so many options. You know what? That's not what it seemed like to me this afternoon, so I'm looking forward to your guess. It has definitely a Charlotte's Web feel to it, but I think maybe James Harriot, All Creatures Great and Small. I'll go with that. Whoa. First of all, obviously, all guesses are wrong.

The reason why that guess is wrong, of course, is that All Creatures Great and Small by James Harriot is the memoir of a British country veterinarian, not chicken killer. And the reason that Cynthia's guess was wrong is it was wrong. Cynthia's guess was wrong is it was wrong. But in this case, you were very, very close, I have to say, Gideon, when you guessed sounded like Charlotte's Web. It's not by E.B. White, but it is from Maine. It is from Yard Pig, which is the blog of a neighbor of mine in Maine that he was keeping over the summer about the problem he had by accidentally buying 14 pigs. Michael Sheehan is a year round neighbor of ours up on the peninsula where we have a home in Maine. He and his wife are amazing people.

They have two amazing daughters. They are both bakers. He is also a home builder. They're incredibly self-reliant people. Obviously they're noted chicken killers. And yet, some time ago, at the beginning of last summer, he got tricked into buying 14 guinea hogs, thinking that they would resurface his yard, not realizing that he was going to come to love these animals very deeply, and had already gone through one traumatic experience of having some tamworth pigs

and having to send them to slaughter and going through a deep depression so now the blog begins with him explaining i have these 14 very very uh intelligent and eccentric and idiosyncratic and lovable pigs including mona the one that he loves the most. And a full quarter of them are already marked to be slaughtered because someone else bought them for him to raise. And he has to decide what he's going to do with them because 14 guinea hogs, American guinea hogs, are very, very disruptive to property. After a while, they get big and they eat a lot and they're expensive. And there's a really interesting read, and I you to read it. And the very best part is the very first entry, which is from July of this past year, talking about Mona, the pig he loves the best. And there are only three comments on the blog.

One is from his wife saying, I think you're thinking about pigs too much again. The next one is from his daughter saying, I agree with mom.. The next one is from his daughter saying, I agree with mom. And the third one is from his daughter, Chloe, saying these pigs aren't going to last. Don't make it like last time. Meaning don't get yourself into an emotional tiz about these pigs.

And by the way, the decision ultimately of what to do with these pigs was made. And it's an amazing piece of writing. And it just came out a couple of days ago as of this recording. So go check it out, yardpig.com. And now we go on to this fake court case, which is not about pigs, but about chickens. Cynthia and Gideon, you live outside of Austin, Texas. Do I understand that correctly?

Yes. Yes. All right. So tell me a little bit about your life and your chickens and your age and what you do all day. And paint a word picture for me about what's going on down there. Who's first? Cynthia, why don't you give us a shot? Okay.

I am 45 years old. I'm a wife, mother. I'm a speech-language pathologist, and I'm an aspiring guitarist and singer. And I love our home, and I love our dog, and I think I sent you pictures of our house, and it's my sanctuary. My backyard is pretty much my favorite place in the world. And maybe I'm a crazy plant lady or a hoarder, but the garden in our house is a huge part of my life. And we've been in our house for eight years, and we've slowly transformed the backyard, replacing a lot of the grass with crushed granite and walkways and native plants and

succulents. And I collect pottery from Mexico and terracotta pots. And I love to take cuttings from succulents. And anyway, that's pretty much me in a nutshell. Now, hold on. When you say you take cuttings from succulents, not just in the atria of local shopping malls, right? No, from family and friends. Good, because there's established law around mall atria foliage. Well, Cynthia, that was a wonderful piece of testimony, the likes of which I've never heard. And I appreciate and adore your utopia that you've created in your backyard

outside of Austin. And the problem is, I guess, Gideon, is you want to destroy it with chickens. What's happening? Yes, I'm the monster. And I, you know, tried to be a supportive father. Actually, we had had chickens before in San Antonio when our kids were younger. And I think we didn't have as much time for, you know, when you have young kids, you don't have as much time for creating a utopia in your backyard. But we had chickens then and we had four Rhode Island wrens. And my son at the time, who was probably four or five, really enjoyed them. So when we moved up to Austin and we've been here for a while, we finally got to the point where my son had been kind of asking me for

chickens. And I had told him, you know, if you write a business plan and can prove to me that, you know, you'll do some due diligence here and be responsible for them, you know, we can consider getting some more. So we did, and I had forgotten how destructive for, you know, two pound birds can be to a backyard. But yeah, so, you know, one of the conditions is for me was in order to get these chickens that I really did not want them to be kept in a small enclosure. I wanted them, part of what I really love about having chickens, especially in this utopia of a backyard, I include the chickens in that landscape. To me, they bring a lot of joy and calm and peacefulness in watching them do their chicken business.

Not that business. Doing chicken stuff. Sorry. In the backyard. You have strange proclivities. Oh, it's all coming out. And so. Cynthia's definition of utopia is growing succulents and cultivating peace.

And your definition of utopia is watching a chicken poop. Yeah. No, I misspoke. But just do their typical chicken type of behavior, scratching, pecking, running around, getting scared over absolutely nothing. And I also enjoy watching my kids be out there with them. And this day and age, I feel like they become more closed off to the world every day and watching them until you've watched your 13 year old, 14 year old son run around and try to catch a chicken. You really haven't lived as far as I can, I can tell. All right. How many chickens, I have a lot of questions. And one of the things

I want to get to is the business plan that you made your son right to get these chickens into his life? Because I don't know what kind of business you have with chickens. But let's just talk about how many you have. You mentioned you have four? We used to have four. There's been a recent raccoon encounter that reduced our flock by one quarter. Yeah, why mince words?

Raccoons wouldn't. Raccoon killed the heck out of your chicken. Yes, sir. wouldn't raccoon killed the heck out of your chicken yes sir it turns out that they uh only want to get um partially digested food out of the crop of the chicken which is located sort of below the neck and above the chest and so they just rip that part off of the bird and leave the rest of the bird intact just when i thought raccoons couldn't get more despicable oh they're the worst they have human-like hands and can open the latch of the coop that we purchased. Yeah, I mean, despicable or not, you got to admit those little thumbs are cute.

Yeah, they're great for pulling out undigested food out of a dead chicken crop and shoving it into your raccoon maw. Gross. I used to be somewhat, you know, along the lines that just, you know, partially that, you know, these mapaches are cute. But I was recently camping by myself for a weekend and had about seven of them descend on my campground at night and surround me at my camping area and chased me into my tent. So ever since then, I've been a little wary of these things. They wanted to get their little raccoon hands into your sweet crop and eat some of your

undigested food. You know, say what you will about raccoons. It's pretty cute when they team up on you, A-team style. I love it when a plan comes together. Well, I have been reviewing the evidence, the photos of both your yard and your chickens. And I could look at this all day long because it's a beautiful yard. And these are some beautiful chickens. But they are obviously working against each other since the chickens are destructive to your plants. Is that correct, Cynthia? Yes, but I enjoy the chickens. I like having the chickens. And the problem isn't the chickens themselves and we're raising them for eggs

Not meat neither of us or our family. We don't eat any meat But the problem is is that they're not properly secured I think my husband and my son which they're kind of one in the same We we have a saying we have a saying, a Mexican-American saying that goes, de tal palo, tal astilla. And a palo is like a branch and astilla is a splinter. It's kind of like from the branch comes the splinter. And so the two of them are like a chip off the old block, I guess would be the equivalent. You're calling your son a splinter.

But they they don't I think my husband finds it distasteful to clip them properly. I have a close friend who's raised chickens in the country and says that you have to repeatedly clip them because they grow back and they will jump over. So you're talking about clipping their wings. So their wings are supposed to be restricted to the side yard. And I have no problem with them being free ranged, but no more than an hour a day, unless the kids are out there with them. And also when we go to work or when I come home from work, one or two have jumped over the side yard that has a, it has a little gate and a fence. I think I sent some pictures and the solution has been kind of jerry-rigging, like putting sawhorses on top of it. Or

my husband bought these strings of bamboo beads that he's dangling from the arbor. And yeah, I see these bamboo beads. So let me make sure I understand this. And all these photos are on the show page at MaximumFun.org. And also on our Instagram account. Our Instagram handle is JudgeJohnHodgman, all one word. And you guys will want to check this out because these are some great photos of a beautiful yard and some weird makeshift bamboo barriers and some really lovely chickens. There are three of them. What are the names of these chickens?

Bailey, Mocha, and Lacey. And Latte or Fluffy Feet was the one that we lost recently. This chicken had two names, Latte and Fluffy Feet. That's the one that got decropped? Yes. Yes, sir. And so if I understand this correctly, let me just clarify a couple points for my own deliberation.

They are supposed to be living in the side yard, which is separate from your backyard, Cynthia, correct? Yes. But their wings aren't clipped frequently enough to prevent them from flapping up and over and getting into all kinds of mischief in your backyard. Is that right? Yes. And we've built a raised bed for them out there with about $100 worth of plants that they destroyed in about two weeks. And so if the kids were out there, they could just kind of steer them off the patio. And I know they do benefit the garden. They're absolutely beautiful and they eat bugs and they aerate everything, but they're just out there for too long. So those of you who are listening who may not have raised chickens in an urban or semi-urban environment or a rural environment,

chicken scratch. They scratch up the dirt to get up bugs and worms and other bits of food for them. And that's how they aerate the soil. And that's good for the soil. Same reason why you might want to have 14 American guinea hogs on a large field that you're trying to turn over the soil on, because they'll root up all that soil. They'll turn it over, obviously, on a much larger scale. And by the way, if you guys are interested in about five to six American guinea hogs from Maine, we can send them down to you. Cynthia?

Let's take a quick break and hear about one of our sister shows here at MaximumFun.org. And when we come back, we'll hear more about these Texas chickens. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join, and you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen?

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Let's get back into the courtroom and hear more about Gideon, Cynthia, and their crazy, crazy chickens. Well, look, these photos of these chickens, these are magnificent birds. They are and were all hens, I presume? Yes, sir. We obviously don't know for sure, so it's a waiting game. But I think by now we are pretty sure that there's no – none of them is going to become a rooster. They started to produce eggs. That's usually a tip-off as to their gender. Yes, yes. The darkest one is Bailey, and she's a Jersey Giant.

Jersey Giant. Mocha is the kind of brown one that is a well summer, and Lacey is a lace wine dot. And so that's why her name is Lacey and not named after other types of beverages. And poor Fluffy Feet Latte was what? Fluffy Feet Bantam. And that's why she, Bantams grow feathers all down on their ankles to cover their feet. These are handsome birds. And I'll tell you, you know, we've spent some time in non-urban areas and our neighbors have had chickens. We've spent some time in non-urban areas and our neighbors have had

chickens. We've raised some chicks before. They are beautifully dumb and hilarious animals to have around. And they are gorgeous to look at. And they are funny to watch when they get confused, which is a lot of the time. They're also, you can pick them up and you can pat them. They're nice. They're nice lap animals. And if you enjoy watching something poop, they do that too. That's one that's for you, Gideon. But they are destructive. And there are some heartbreaking before and after pictures here of planters that once were thriving and now are just a blasted Mad Max wasteland. He also came home one day with the chickens.

I had no idea. I mean, I knew they talked about it, but they sometimes like to talk about their big plans, and sometimes they're outlandish. So I didn't know that that was really going to happen. Were you given an opportunity to review the business plans? view the business plans? Well, I knew that he was working on them, but Gideon is a lot like Pa or Charles Ingalls from the Laura Ingalls Wilder books, except that we live in the suburbs in modern times. But he can do almost anything, and he likes to build, and he can repair, and fix, and plant, and up. And like pa like in those books i never

i wondered when i was a little girl why they got up and moved so much and i think that gideon's a lot like pa and maybe a little bit like chip gains and the fixer-upper when you watch those episodes and he's always showing up at the house with some new random pet except ours was on a smaller scale. You know why Pa's always moving around in those books, Cynthia? He's wanted by the federal government for murder. Uh-oh. You never caught that subtext?

I don't think that's true. It was suspicious, though. You were too busy listening to those nice songs he plays on the fiddle. Judge John Hodgman, I will say that it was a surprise to both of us that this business plan ever was completed. What is the business plan for having four, now three backyard chickens? What's the biz?

How many eggs can you possibly be selling? I don't know what it is, and I don't know quite why it's called Eggs for the Homeless. Like, I don't think there's... Oh. We do some... We have's called Eggs for the Homeless. Like, I don't think there's... Oh. We do some... We have done volunteer work for the homeless, but these were just for us to have our own eggs

instead of having to purchase them just to supplement what we eat at home. You're just scared that your relationship with the grocery store is getting disrupted. Your relationship with the grocery store is getting disrupted. Gideon, did you submit your son's business plan for these chickens into evidence? Yes, sir. And he's, just to clarify, he was 13 when he wrote the plan.

And how old is he now? 14. All right. Well, Doogie Howser was a teenager when he went to medical school. Good point. Business plan by Gustavo. he went to medical school. Good point. Business plan by Gustavo. Last name redacted. Very good.

I am Gustavo, and I go by Goose. That's his nickname? Yes, sir. I love it. Oh, man, that's a really cool nickname. That is totally cool. He wanted to call it Goose Eggs for a while. Oh. Yeah.

And I made him watch the first scene of Mad Max with Goose in it. Now you're joking on me. Never, sir. The original Mad Max? Yes, sir. The opening scene where he's chasing the Knight Rider. I know. I haven't seen it for a long time.

But Goose is his post-apocalyptic policeman partner, right? Yes. When he crashes in at the end, says they say how are you and he says nothing a day in the tropics can't fix i want to start a business where i sell chicken eggs this will also be posted on the show page i want to start this business because i want pet chickens and i want to earn money these chickens will be free range it's right there in the business plan, Cynthia. They'll be raised on non-GMO feed with no pesticides, and they will produce organic eggs. Well, you can't say that because you would need to get a federal government

or state approval for that. So you're not allowed to use that term organic. Yeah, organic style at best. Yeah, these eggs are guilt-free. I love animals. I will be very grateful if you donate. Thank you. Wowee. I want to. I will be very grateful if you donate. Thank you. Wowee! I want to market to

stores that would want to sell my product, specifically H-E-B, a local grocery store in Texas, and Whole Foods because they love to sell local products. My second sales point would be friends and family because I know they love local fresh and guilt-free eggs. Goose is killing it! Egg prices have gone up recently.

Oh my God, identifying trends. So I think I can charge a competitive rate for my eggs. Goose is killing it. Egg prices have gone up recently. Oh my God, identifying trends. So I think I can charge a competitive rate for my eggs. Below are the prices for large eggs from producers who keep their chickens confined and kill them if they do not lay eggs. And they got an annual egg prices bar graph. All right, financial plan, incentives for donating. Okay, so you donate.

And this is to raise money to purchase the chickens. Was this the idea? And the coop and the feed that is a monthly expense. I told him I would front half of the money for the business and I would front the rest of it until he paid me back with the... 35% interest. Yeah, right. The money that he got from donations, that would go to me first until he paid off, and then the rest would be his. Has he paid off his debt to the Lord Humongous? I think we sold a dozen and just one, and it was to one of my good friends at work, a teacher friend.

I see. But I also, the eggs that the family uses, which keeps me from having to buy them at the store, then that gets deducted from the cost it owes me because that's money I would spend on eggs for the family. Oh, okay. So when you sent your son Gustavo out to ask for donations using this business plan, sent your son Gustavo out to ask for donations using this business plan, did you disclose to the donors that all of the money being donated was going directly to lining your pockets? Well, he hasn't actually asked anybody for donations yet. That business plan has not been mailed out to anybody. He tried to do a Kickstarter, but the clientele, the people that

he was asking for money, I don't think know how to use Kickstarter or what's the – I didn't mean to buzz market the other. Right. So he didn't – that went nowhere. He was supposed to mail out physically copies of this business plan, but I refused to get out the address book for him. And so it's dead in the water. He's going to have to get his own leads. He can't have the Glengarry leads. Always be selling. You know, here's the water. He's going to have to get his own leads. He can't have the Glengarry leads. Always be

selling. You know, here's the thing. Between Utopian Garden, between sons with awesome nicknames. I'm sure your daughter is amazing as well. She is. This incredible business plan. Your beautiful chickens. And

some of these sweet movie references that Gideon is dropping. I'm going to say this is the number one family on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast. Oh, I was just going to say it's obvious that you're trying to run some kind of scam on us. Well, that could be too, maybe. You trust human beings more than I do. I'm just going to say, Jesse, number one family on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast. And I'm writing a check right now for some eggs.

$1,000. So you guys are obviously killing it, but here's the thing. How can there be a dispute here? Obviously, the chickens, for all the good work that Goose did in putting this business plan together, and all the medium good work that you, Gideon, put into creating a kind of bead curtain barrier. The chickens are getting into a place where they shouldn't be, and they're causing destruction that is causing distress to your wife.

Gideon, how can you argue that these chickens should be given free reign in the backyard? I think that, yeah, I haven't had a chance to make my case really, but I think there's a compromise here in that we plant certain types of plants in the backyard that the chickens are less likely to get into, or maybe I build some makeshift additional barricades. No, I'm just kidding. But, you know But I think there's a way for the chickens to have free range in the backyard and maybe we plant... They tend to be after, I think, after my wife's portulacas, which are very important to them and they will go through great lengths and great fences to get to. I've tried clipping their wings, even though I don't

like doing it. And I've done it to I think pretty good standards and often enough. Not good enough. No. I don't think that any more clipping is going to. I don't think that the way they're getting into the yard is by their wings. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. How are they getting into the yard?

Tunneling? Well How are they getting over that fence? You've seen chicken runs there, right no so i think they're squeezing through or just hopping up i mean these chickens i'm not sure if you've seen these jersey giants are a good 18 inches tall why they're they're good hopping birds some chickens are for eggs some are for meat and some are for meat, and some are for pure hopping. And so maybe just squeezing through, I'm not quite sure. I would like to get some video footage of how this is occurring. We'll have Goose commission a study.

But why is it important to you? I mean, I've seen the photos of the side yard. It's pretty spacious. Why is it important to you that they have free run of the big backyard, which is such a special place to your wife? Why not accede to her wishes and just have them have supervised time back there? Texas also is, for a good nine months of the year, too hot for me and also too filled with mosquitoes. And so it's for my kids and I to be out there for a good bulk of the year is difficult. Is the side yard too constraining for your chickens? I believe so. I love to see them in the grass.

They love it. They love to dig around the plants. They can build up a lot of waste, just these three chickens very quickly. And so the less room they have to wander freely, the more all of that mess can be confined. And so I would like to spread that out as much as possible. But I do understand.

I mean, I don't like them doing that on like the patio and I don't like to see them knock over pots and plants either. So I'm just thinking, you know, with some with some family teamwork, we could rearrange what types of plants we plant and where to give them more access, but also protect protect some of these plants that we do not want them to ruin. They have also jumped the front fence and a neighbor rang the doorbell to bring one of them home. And then the next door neighbor fence that have two dogs that maybe might not be as friendly as our own to chickens. So by not consistently clipping the wings, I think he's putting the chicken's life in danger. Well, that would solve your chicken problem,

though, wouldn't it, if the dogs took care of those chickens? And I don't want to see that happen. You want to see those chickens dead. No. No, I love the chickens. And I love that my son and daughter are very excited. They treat them like pets. They actually, they pick them up and hug them and they want to make them chicken sweaters and decorate with a Christmas tree and lights out in their area. And it's, it's very cute to watch. And I love how compassionate they are with animals. And as far as planting different kinds of plants, they definitely prefer some over the others. Like they love purslane and portulaca and succulents, but they'll eat anything. Just ask your neighbor with the pigs. It's not like there's any kind of plant that is fully chicken proof. First of all, what are portulacas? They call them in South Texas cheese mess, which is like a gossip because they open and close as the sun goes up and the sun goes down,

like a gossiping mouth. And they're just a beautiful succulent that blooms in orange, coral, yellow, red, really bright colors. And they're incredible even in triple-digit temperatures. They require very little water. And they open and close like an oxalis plant according to the time of day? Yes. And that's why they're called gossipmouths? Yes.

Holy moly. Chismos. Botany is amazing. Chismosas. Right. And they're beautiful. And you can, I have many of them because I just buy a few or collect a few and then they can, I just grow them from cuttings. That's one of my hobbies. Cynthia, it's fair to say that despite all of these challenges, if these chickens were to wear custom-made chicken sweaters, they would deserve to live in the house and eat caviar or whatever they wanted, right? the whole losing fuzzy feet. And we were on a trip and our house center would send us pictures day by day of pieces of the chicken coop coming apart because the raccoon was trying to take off piece by piece of these predator-proof coops that like the one that we bought. But he built a small, it looks like a little shelf. He just completed it about two days ago. And so now at night they sleep in the garage in this sort of long shelf encased closure and the garage,

we have a dog door, but we close it off so that they're safe from the raccoons. And also I just wanted to mention that- That's currently now. Yes. They've stopped, the chickens have stopped laying either because it's cold. And I'll say that it's cold for Texas standards. It isn't that cold. Or they were just terrified of the raccoon. So the whole purpose of this or one of the main purposes was for the eggs. And they stopped laying eggs anyway.

But they also are pets as well. There goes your omelet dividend, Gideon. So what's the thing in your garage now? Where is that connected to the side yard? We have dog doors, but we have like a double layer of dog doors. So the dog doesn't just go out straight into the yard. She has to go through the dog door. So the dog doesn't just go out straight into the yard. He has to go, she has to go through the dog door into the garage and then through another dog door into

the side yard. And then there's a fence that separates the side yard from the backyard. So that door we close off because one night- And then there's a ball pit and then there's the slime dumper. Yeah. And then there's the corkscrew slide i anyway long story i built uh basically a roosting right i i built a um roosting box for them and it's it's basically just a mini coop they don't do anything once they go to roost and when the sun goes down they don't lay eggs they don't eat or drink or anything like that. And so I just built a small enclosure, just like, I mean, like you would a bed. And so the chickens come in at night.

We go get them and put them up to roost inside the garage. Well, here's my question. You have to move them into this chicken safe house, this raccoon fruit box. They will learn. I'm sure they'll learn. They are more routine than than anybody and they'll let you know once it starts getting a limited amount of light in the day they go to roost so when they start learning where they want to go to roost um just like in the wild you

know they pheasants will go into a tree and they'll go into their coop on themselves but yeah we would have to close the door behind them after they learned. Okay, got it. Isn't there a way to predator-proof the side yard? I mean, I'm going to tell you right now, a bead curtain isn't going to do it. Like, could you do something more? Could you use some chicken wire to put over that side yard and really, you know, make it safe?

No, I believe that they, that chicken wire is not really raccoon or predator proof. You have to use much higher strength and smaller mesh. Like a raccoon wire, for example. It's a big enough area that it wouldn't be feasible to close it off unless it would be like building an addition to your house. Yeah, I got you. All right. right well maybe that's what you need to do build a chicken barn south on me so if i'm going to rule in your favor just to clarify cynthia you you want the chickens to be in the main backyard only under a human supervision. Or they can be free range, but an hour at the most. And not with us having to prompt them to go,

for them to be responsible to time the hour. Because I don't think... The chickens? I think our children. Oh, okay. To time and to put them back without prompting before they've eaten everything down to the roots, you know, just leaving a few little stalks and a whole pot upended. And just for Gideon to

kind of get over it and consistently clip their wings more than he thinks he should to keep them not only from just free ranging, but from jumping into the front yard in the street or into the neighbor's yard. Okay. And you obviously, Gideon, you want status quo. Chickens can jump and leap and frolic, squeeze through and hang out in that backyard. And you're going to offer some distraction plants that you hope will keep them from going for the main gossip mouths and otherwise just let them roam free. Correct?

Yes, sir. We also have a very large front yard where the chickens don't have access to at all. I live in Brooklyn, New York. I'm tired of hearing about all your side yards and your garages and your front yards and your backyards. And your access to barbecue restaurants. Right. What is your front yard solution now? Well, that we can plant as many plants as we want.

And I'm happy to help with that and make that area also a chicken-free utopia for Cynthia. And then the backyard can be more just sort of needed. We already know that the chickens can get into that front yard. They've already done it. The chickens have already busted through your security system over there. And also, I like to spend a lot of time with the plants. And in the front yard, there's no privacy. In the backyard, we have a fence and we have a seating area and we have a raised bed where we grow vegetables in the backyard. We have a fence and we have a seating area and we have a raised bed where we grow vegetables in the summer. And we have a little conversation area and a chiminea. And it's not the same to just move. Gideon, there's a chiminea back there. A chiminea, Gideon,

a chiminea. Really, I would just be happy being absolved. My number one thing would be absolved from any discussion or forcing me into clipping any more wings. They grow once a year. I've done the wing clipping, I believe, satisfactorily. The proof is in the flapping, sir. A ruling from the judge, I believe, would go a long way in ensuring my son followed through on his chores to be with them more in the backyard and escorting them around. But independently, without us, if we have to prompt them or tell them to go out there, He's 14 years old.

It's more work for us or for me. Yeah, having chickens is more work for everybody. So that I understand, Gideon, because I don't know, and I'm tired of pretending that I do know. Before I go into my chambers, what is the process of clipping the wings mean? What do you do? And why do you not like to do it? And why doesn't Goose do it? It's a multiple person job. When some of those people are kids, it's a multiple person job um when when those some of those people are kids it's a three person job but um what happens is the chickens have primary feathers primary feathers are main flying feathers on birds they're the ones that um actually like look like wing feathers that are the longest so when you pull those wings out they stick out to the side the longest and so

um just like you would get a haircut you don't't feel that you don't feel the hairs being cut, but you can feel sort of that your head feels weird after you get a haircut. And so when you cut the you just cut the last maybe inch or two off of those primary feathers, it's enough for them not to get into flight. But it doesn't prevent them from jumping or just using their base muscles. And I would never cut their muscles because that would obviously be very painful. No, obviously not. And dangerous. No.

But so it will keep them from flying, but it doesn't necessarily keep them from getting over the fence that prevents them from getting into the backyard. And my quote was from Nacho Libre. I just had to say some movie quotes. Oh, this is the greatest number one family. I'll buy some eggs. All right.

I've got everything I need in order to make my decision. I'm going to crawl through this dog door into a protected garage where I will sit for a moment in darkness, free from raccoon predation, come up with my decision. I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Cynthia, how do you feel about your chances in the case? I don't know. I think they're pretty good. I don't think I'm asking for too much, I hope. How do you feel about your chiminea? I hope. How do you feel about your Chiminea?

I like it. We've only used it a few times, but now that it's winter-ish in Texas, we might use it more. Gideon, how do you feel about your chances in the case? Not very good. I mean, despite being absolutely beautiful, my wife is also very intelligent and amazingly level-headed and practical. So very intelligent and amazingly level-headed and practical. So in anything, when it comes to really making the right decision, I usually defer to her. Yeah, and I hear you're quite the old block. Yes, sir. How do you feel about your chiminea?

I like the chiminea. you feel about your chiminea? I like the chiminea. You know, I bought it because I had decided to take my son camping and not made proper reservations for the camping spot one night. And so by the time we drove out there, they sent us home. And so my compromise to him was on the way back would buy the chiminea so he could make his s'mores in the backyard. And we've used it for s'mores a couple times. So we'll look now that it's winter time and I can't wait to get out there, maybe make some s'mores with the chickens during the day. I am thankful that I maybe I'm level headed and practical, but so is my husband and he brings adventure and fun. And, you know, over the course of our marriage, I really appreciate that he is spontaneous and is the kind of person who would just bring home chickens.

You know what? I can't deal with this conflict anymore. The two of you have been at each other's throats for an hour now. I cannot handle it. I got to get out of here. We'll be back in just a second with Judge John Hodgman's ruling. Handle it. I got to get out of here. We'll be back in just a second with Judge John Hodgman's ruling. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney.

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If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will.

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So I'm going to keep my verdict brief because you, Gideon and Cynthia, wasted so much time up top being adorable. And the decision is fairly obvious here. First of all, let me commend you for having chickens and, uh, to the natural world in both its profound and sublime and hilarious beauty, AKA fluffy feet, the chicken and its harsher aspects as well, AKA a raccoon killing fluffy feet to get to its sweet crop and leaving its mauled body, uh, there out amongst the porchalottas or whatever they're called. I think it's really a lot of fun. And I don't want to hear any more about eggs. Eggs are a side product.

They are the excuse to make your son write a business plan to provide proof of some level of responsibility for having pet chickens. And they are a little, as I say, omelet dividend at the end of the day. But these, you know, chickens only lay eggs for a certain period of time in their life. Sometimes when they get raccoon spooked or too cold, they won't lay them at all. That's not the point.

You like to have these chickens around because they're weird and dumb and crazy and you hold them and they're nice. That said, you know what also is beautiful? Succulents, gardens, all the work that Cynthia is putting in to this oasis that she has created for herself in the backyard. That's worth protecting. And you have, as it's been established, many, many different kinds of yards. Front yards, side yards, back yards, under yards, top yards, garage yards. I get it.

You guys are yard rich. There is no reason why this oasis that Cynthia has created for herself and Tens so carefully should be destroyed by these lovable but dumb and destructive pet chickens, other than someone is too lazy to put them back where they belong, which is the side yard and or the garage, when the time comes for them to get back into their own world. own world. That side yard is plenty of room for those chickens to spend most of their time. And I'm telling you, between clipping their wings and using your paw angle skills to secure that area, there's no reason they should be able to escape from there. They are dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb animals. They're not clever Rhode Island Reds with the voice of Mel Gibson figuring stuff out. So, Pa Ingalls, you've got to get back in there in that side yard and you've got to secure that stuff with something other than bead curtains, not only for your backyard's protection, but for your chickens' protection. It would be great if your children took full care of the chickens and did so without prompting.

And frankly, I think you're going to have a lot more success with your kids than I would have with my kids doing this, because I don't think either my son or daughter could ever put a bar graph into a business plan in order to get chickens. They would be like, too much work, forget it. They're on their way, but they are still kids. They're still going to need prompting. They're going to still need pushing along. And ultimately it's going to, the responsibility for these pets, as with every pet ever owned by every family in the world is going to fall to

the parents. And specifically in this case, sorry, Gideon, it's going to fall to you because you show up at a house with chickens one day unannounced. It's on you to make sure that those chickens don't destroy your wife's garden.

So I think my order is clear. Enjoy your chickens in your backyard when you're there. Otherwise, get them into their many, many other living situations that are perfectly wonderful for them. And until then, don't get any more birds. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Gideon, are you prepared to genuinely paw angles this thing? You know, I swore to abide by the ruling of the court, so I will definitely try my best. I think you can do this, Gideon. I apologize for all the Mel Gibson references. That really was not planned. Cynthia, how do you feel about the decision? Then afterwards, if you want, you can tell us how you feel about Mel Gibson. I feel very relieved. I really was sad to see just bit by bit

this whole, just my garden and fall apart and see plants toppled over and pots broken. And I kind of felt that Gideon and the kids were a little bit indifferent and just telling me that I needed to chill and get over it. And it's just pots and, you know, plant something else. So I feel a little, I feel, I wouldn't say vindicated because I really love my husband and my kids and I'm not that upset. But I feel satisfied and relieved and grateful. Well, Cynthia Gideon, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books. In just a minute, we'll dispense some swift

justice, but we want to thank Jesse Madsen for naming this week's episode, Cook au Bain. If you'd like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, that's where we ask for your submissions. You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets. Hashtag JJHO. And check out the Maximum Fun subreddit to discuss this episode. You'll find that at MaximumFun.reddit.com. This week's episode was recorded by Marty Lester

at Tequila Mockingbird Studios in Austin, Texas. Our brilliant producer is Jennifer Marmer. Thanks, Jennifer. Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment. Here's one from Amber. I refuse to accept my husband's friend request on Instagram because he never posts anything. Am I right to accept my husband's friend request on Instagram because he never posts anything. Am I right to deny him? Yeah, of course you are, Amber. You should never feel compelled to accept a friend request of any kind, and especially from a lurker, even if that lurker is your husband.

Tell him to get with the game and post some pictures, and then maybe you'll be his friend. Tell him to get with the game and post some pictures. Then maybe you'll be his friend. I like that icing she's doing to her own husband. Yeah. That's about it for this week's episode. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO or email Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. Remember, no case is too small. All right. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.umFun.org. Remember, no case is too small.

All right. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Mock, mock.