Judge John Hodgman - Criminal In Tent

Episode Date: October 25, 2013

How will these two young would-be homesteaders live? In a small wooden house, or a yurt?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, criminal intent. April and her boyfriend Walter have grand plans for the future to buy a patch of land and build their homestead, but they disagree on what to build. April says a small wooden house. Walter longs for yurt living. Can Judge John Hodgman help them solve their housing dispute? Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Len is an uptight, rude, and overbearing individual, and this is quite sad. Why anyone would bother purchasing a book penned by him, let alone actually read it, is beyond me. He can't even bother to correct typos in his own practice department report forms,

so I'm at a loss to explain how he managed to get something published, other than that he knew someone on the inside who owned the press or helped him out. Not only that, he can't seem to tell the difference between where education ends and practice begins. This book is a very clear example of that. Jesse, swear a man. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do.

I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he himself lives in a vast underground cavern? Well, technically a system of caverns? I do. I do. Very well, Judge Hodgman. Oh, we're at only true bailiff, Jesse. Hey, did you guys see that thing on the Internet from a couple of months ago?

The underground home outside of Las Vegas that was being sold? Some 80s millionaire, back when being a millionaire meant being a billionaire, decided to dig out a huge hole in the desert outside of Las Vegas because he was convinced that the Russians were going to bomb us. And he built a home underground, and he built this home underground such that it was a giant underground cavern. And then he built a regular home inside the cavern. And then he painted the walls of the cavern with nature scenes so that he could be inside his underground home and look through the windows at the nature scenes. And he had a fake lawn and a fake barbecue, which I hope he had a hood for because otherwise you were all going to choke on carbon dioxide. Did you guys see that on the Internet? Sounds like something Walter would like.

I did not see that. Oh, Walter, you should take a look at it and see if you like it because it's probably better than living in a yurt. But now, Walter and April, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in your favor. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced or in this case quoted directly as I entered the courtroom? No. No, unfortunately. Of course you cannot. How could you know?

was the one star review on Amazon by Amazon user calorie restricted. That's the name of the Amazon. And that user was reviewing the book, build a yurt, the low cost Mongolian roundhouse by author Len Charney. There were two reviews, one of them five star, the other one four star, excuse me, the other one one star. And of course, this one star review was clearly written by an office mate of the author's who hated him so badly that he had to trash his book on Amazon and did not at all comment on the book's abilities to describe the practice and necessity of building a yurt. That is what I'm relying on you for, Walter.

What can you tell us that Len Charney can't? You guys want to go out into the woods or I guess not. What state are you in are you in a state or commonwealth of the united states we are in a state which state can you say uh oregon oregon yes there's a lot of places to get lost out in oregon are there not yeah there are indeed so you guys are going to drop out of civilization. You're buying up some land. Yeah. April, you want to build a little house. Walter, you want to build a yurt.

April, you don't want a yurt. Walter, you do. Let's start by defining what a yurt is for the curious audience of this Radio Justice podcast. Walter. So a yurt is essentially just a round structure with a canvas around it. A tent. Yeah, a tent, but a little more permanent than a tent. And would you say that it is the traditional, the traditional dwelling of the

ancient Mongolian nomadic tribes? Uh, yes. Would you describe it as a low cost Mongolian roundhouse? Uh, uh, sure. Yeah. Low cost Mongolian roundhouse. I like it. I've done some reading on this. Yeah. Low cost Mongolian roundhouse. I like it. I've done some reading on this. Did you read Len's book? The reason that I paused there was because I don't know how I missed this, but I, I failed to read the five-star review of Len's book, which is by Jay Hopkins, who says, okay, five stars is a bit high. It really is a four-star item,

but I'm trying to balance out calorie-restricted reviews. Not sure what's going on there. It sounds like you ditched them at the prom. Anyway, the book offers information on the construction of hard and soft yurts and is fairly well covered. I would really like to see this book come back into print. As far as calorie-restricted goes, eat a bran muffin or cut back on the coffee.

All right. So Walter, you have told me almost nothing about yurts that I did not learn from a one-star review of how to build a yurt. So tell me more about this proposed home. First of all, is this to be a home to live in or a getaway, a retreat from your otherwise twee and comfortable existence in Portland, Oregon? A home. A home. You are going to move there forever. We will move there. For the foreseeable future.

For the foreseeable future, correct. Right. And you will own no other home. Correct. All right. And you are not married, is that correct? Yes. And what ages are you, if I may ask? And I may. I am 30. I'm 25. All right. April? Yeah. I want you to leave Walter immediately. I want you to leave this 30-year-old creep before he kidnaps you and puts you in his yurt.

You have a lot of living to do. As they say, as Conrad Birdie said, you have a lot of living to do. Five years is a big gap of time between 25 and 30. And you want to live with a guy who wants to build a yurt? I don't know. An uncivilized Oregon? I don't know if it's that big of an age difference. He acts like a child, so.

Clearly he does. That is what we call a red flag of warning. Not a, I don't know what color flag of excitement would be, or happiness, or goodness goodness or reassurance. Guys my age are overrated and too young at heart. I mean, men just, you've said this before, men mature a lot slower than women. So, yeah. Yeah.

So, April, do you want to go, what do you do now and where do you live currently? Well, currently I live in Portland with Walter and I, what kind of living situation do you guys have? Like a house, an apartment? It's a little bit of both. A teepee, a lean-to. Oh man, a teepee would be awesome. But no, we live in a combination of like a – we live in a house, but we live in – Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Are you one of those Portlanders who believes that an urban teepee would be awesome but a rural yurt is terrible? Okay. Okay. Teepee, awesome, but not in reality. I totally do a teepee. If it were in the middle of downtown. That would be cool. You live in a house.

So we live in a house in the top most duplex of the house. So we just live in that apartment kind of. But nobody lives in the lower half of the house. So it's kind of our house. But we only really are sectioned off to one part of it.

Look, you're living in one of the most livable cities in the world. Great food. I believe that Portland now has running water and electricity. Whose idea is it to leave for the country? April, I'm asking you this question. I want you to answer honestly. Whose idea was it? Regardless of how anyone feels about it. Whose idea was it? It's really both of our idea. I mean, we...

Wrong. Answer, try again. Whose idea was it? Yeah, unless you met at a yurt lovers club or something. Well, ever since I was a little kid, I imagined I would, you know, move out to the middle of nowhere and just kind of enjoy myself and my garden and maybe have a dog., I imagined I would, you know, move out to the middle of nowhere and just kind of enjoy myself and my garden and maybe have a dog. And I'm just not really, I'm not into clutter, but, um, it is. Was it your, was it your idea, April? No, I really think it was both. It was both of our idea. I mean, we talk about it a lot. So you say you're not into clutter. You imagine sort of a sleek, modernist farmhouse.

I guess. I think that she's picturing kind of like one of those mid-century modern yurts. Sure. Or she were. That would be no problem. But, you know, and I used to work in a, in a rural area and there was just like vast land, you know, and it was amazing to me how cheap it was compared to Southern California, where I grew up, everything was a lot more expensive. There's cars everywhere. I grew up

in, in, in a city and I just, I I've always wanted something more clear and in nature, but yeah. I'm sorry. I wasn't listening to you because I was trying to refine my joke from earlier and now, and now I can do it. No, Jesse, what she's thinking of is one of those sleek mid-century modern Kwaku to long houses of the Pacific Northwest. All right. Drop that one in Mark McConville or, or, or you may just leave it in as it is and reveal that I'm a monster who

doesn't listen to the people while I think of my lines. You know, that was a gift to the listeners of this. That was a gift to the listeners of this podcast. As if we had all been invited to a potlatch in their honor. Potlatch. So you guys are going to have a potlatch party in the woods and it's your mutual idea and do you have a piece of property in mind walter uh no okay uh do you have a general area

that you want to move to uh outside of portland it's i still think if we live within an hour hour and a half of Portland. Uh-huh. So you're not going to do some rural homesteading in Pioneer Square. That would be a possibility. No, I think they'd kick us out of there pretty quickly. Monster fascists. I know.

All right. But an hour and a half outside of Portland, you get into some into some rugged territory, no? Certainly. And you have an idea of what kind of land you want to live on on top of a mountain, in a dell, by a river, in a tree. What what's what tell me reveal to me how much you know about the rural landscape surrounding Portland, Oregon, before I let you kids go off into the woods and eat each other? Um, I was picturing more of a, uh, you know, rolling Hills. Okay. Do you know, I understand what you're picturing. I understand that you both have dreams. Have you looked at a map? Uh, yes. Look, I understand that Oregon, particularly Eastern Oregon and northwestern Idaho, that's a place where people go to drop out to get off the grid. And I respect that decision that it seems to be that you are mutually making. I am not trying to pinpoint your exact location so I can turn you guys over to the NSA.

Can you give me an idea of the, of where you want to live and how you are going to sustain yourselves? Um, uh, I could somewhat answer that. I mean, like I said earlier, I worked in a rural area and I really liked, you know, Scappoose and Vernonia. There's a lot of places in like northern Oregon that are really nice. I mean, anything more east of the Cascades is kind of out of out of the question because it's like a desert territory and it's really dry. And we want to live in a place where it's more forest like. So east of the Cascades. Now I am reassured. I am I'm willing to go into the wilderness with you, April. And we want to live in a place where it's more forest-like, so east of the Cascades. All right.

Now I am reassured. I am willing to go into the wilderness with you, April. Walter and his yurt dreams right now are not offering me a lot of reassurance. You say you have experience, April, in living in rural areas? I worked in a rural area and commuted to Portland. What was your work in the rural area? I was in a rural area and commuted to Portland. What was your work in the rural area? I was an AmeriCorps VISTA. So I was doing a year of service in a nonprofit organization.

She worked as a logger. Yeah, were you a logger? No, I just helped the low-income seniors get home repairs. bears. Did you, did you, did you grease, did you grease Paul Bunyan's flapjack griddle by strapping back bacon to your feet and then ice skating over it? Sounds like fun, but no, I didn't do that. Does sound like fun. So, but do you have, so I'm sorry, because I was working on that Paul Bunyan riff, So I'm sorry, because I was working on that Paul Bunyan riff. I totally missed what it is that you did.

I was an AmeriCorps VISTA stationed in a nonprofit organization for a year, and I was helping low-income seniors get home repairs. Oh, okay. Do you have any practical skills out of this? Some home repair skills, some handy person skills, some house building skills? Yeah, yeah. You know, just basic stuff. And my dad was a construction worker. So I just kind of have some basic knowledge about that.

And what about, it sounds like you want to become, you want to have a garden or even a farm. You want to raise your own food. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the reason why we want to get a small house. So we can focus on what's outside of the house, you know, with farm animals or gardens and being self-sustainable in general. And you, do you guys intend when you move out there to have no other occupation? I mean, aside from contemplation of solitude and, and playing,

playing a flute by a flute by a little stream? That's a difficult question because the job market is so weird right now. But Walter has a dream of being a country lawyer. He just passed the bar recently. So he's working on that. Yeah. And I work in nonprofits, nonprofit management, but I wouldn't mind, you know, staying at home and working as a seamstress. That's kind of what I'm working on right now, too. Right. So your goal, your goal, though, is for you at least to have the sole occupation of working your land and drawing sustenance from it. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. And you're going to burn all your money and throw away all your credit cards. Yeah. And tell everyone, not tell anyone where you're going, not even your internet judge. No. To what degree do you intend to be cut off from society completely? Will you have electricity?

No, it doesn't sound like it. Oh, no, we totally will have electricity and plumbing. I mean, we both grew up in the city environment. And I think realistically, I mean, romantically, we would like to live without those things. But I think realistically, I would get sick of it after like five years. So there's a certain level of comfort I might need. And that's why you're arguing for a house as opposed to a tent. Yeah.

Yeah. All right, Walter. Yeah. All right, Walter. You're the young woman that you have gulled into coming off into the wild with you, into the wilderness that you describe as woods or a hill or rolling, beautiful rolling hillsides to become a country lawyer in a place that you do not know. Seems to be very practical and assured and someone that I have a lot of confidence can take care of herself. And yet you want her to live in a tent. Now is your time to explain the allure, romantic allure of the yurt and the practical allure of the yurt.

Let's start. Well, you start wherever you see fit. I'm going to start with the practical allure of the yurt. Let's start. Well, you start wherever you see fit. I'm going to start with the practical allure of the yurt. I think when we're moving into the country, cost is going to be an issue and a yurt is going to be substantially less expensive than building a log house or cabin. We can still run plumbing and electricity and all these sorts of, you know, amenities into the yurt. So I think it's really just a cost issue. A yurt is going to be less expensive to build and maintain than a log house. a log house. So you're presupposing that should you not build a yurt, you would live in a log cabin, Abraham Lincoln style. I guess my concern here is that you may not have looked too much into what building a house is in 2013. Like you seem to be picturing 19th century home and earlier in the case of the art home building

technologies uh i yeah i am i am uh that's i guess the the term april used at one point was a lumber shed yeah or so we'll get. I was being generous with log cabin. Obviously, you're going to need somewhere to keep your lumber when you're out there logging. We'll get to April's proposal in a moment. Walter, your argument that it is

less expensive to erect a tent than a house is very compelling. Have you done some, have you done some real investigation as to how much a year round yurt costs? Uh, yes, I have.

Tell me about it now. Okay. Um, so, uh, a yurt of about 325 square feet would come out to about $18,000. $18,000. And how much yurt does 18 grand get you? It gets you a, let's see, I think it was a 20 foot yurt, which is about 314 square feet. 20 feet in diameter? Correct. All right. 20 feet in diameter.

And is this just the tent alone? Yes. Is it insulated? Yes, it is. Well, this is what I'm talking about. You understand a tent is a piece of fabric over some sticks. Yeah. $18,000 is expensive for a tent. So what are you paying for, Walter? You're paying for the... Jeez, and you want to be my country lawyer. I kind of feel like you're just talking about like buying a decommissioned tent from a party rental company that does, you know, rural quinceañeras. If it came with a pinata, I would definitely look into that. Walter, how much yurt does 18 grand get you? What do you get for your money? It gets you the structure, the insulation.

It gets you everything you need except for the platform on which to build the yurt. How much is that? $35,000? I'm estimating $2,000 to $4,000. Okay. Including construction costs. And are you constructing this or is someone else getting it? He's constructing it and then he's hiring someone to reconstruct it.

In all reality, probably April will construct it. And the end result will be... And you've gotten this detail from a website, right? You submitted some information here, submitted some evidence, some breakdown of costs from a website. Normally I would say no buzz marketing, but I feel pretty confident that it's okay

to put out the name of yurts.com. I mean, you know, I got to give them credit. You really dove deep on this one, Walter. Credit goes to you. I got to give this company credit for getting in there early and getting in there before they had to use my e-yurts.com or whatever. Yurts123go.com. So according to you, all right,

18 grand gets you a yurt of 20 feet in diameter with an additional and that would include the cost of your of your platforming and it's what and so on what so describe for me in in physical detail what your dream yurt looks like to a human who doesn't know what a yurt is what i picture is a mongolian roundhouse uh in the woods uh you know basic basic you know color beige canvas over it it's it's simple it's just a structure. Doesn't leave a lot of footprint on the land. It's just there in the woods. Insulated, warm. Why is it warm? It's warm because it will be heated and insulated. What is heating it?

Well, there's various options we can do. We could go with electric, electric heat or a wood stove or pellet stove. Okay. And how is that vented? Where, what is that going to look like inside the house, inside the house? You're working and walking into a, or excuse me,

inside the yurt, walking into a 20 foot diameter room. Correct. Without walls. I mean, there are, there are the exterior walls of the yurt, but inside. Walter, don't play games with me. Without walls. I mean, there are the exterior walls of the yurt, but inside. Walter, don't play games with me.

All right. You know, this is simple stuff. I am asking you to paint a word picture that could be convincing, but at least is accurate, as to what a human who doesn't know what a yurt is will see when they see your home. Are there windows in the yurt? Can you look out through the walls? Yes.

Imagine that you're a country lawyer trying to convince a country judge that your client should be allowed to kill as many spotted owls as is necessary to complete his logging operation. And imagine that that judge is a little baby who doesn't understand anything. Imagine he's the kind of dumbbell who wants to go out into the woods and live in a yurt. Paint a picture for that guy. Now, listen, here's what I'm listening for here, Walter, okay?

Because I'm asking you some very simple, specific questions. And so far, the answers you've given me have been awfully vague. And these questions revolve around, where do you want to live? How are you going to support yourself? What is it going to be like to live in the yurt? How is it going to be warm? Will it be warm year-round? What is the insulation going to be like?

Does it have windows? And all of your answers are sort of like, um, it's a yurt. And it's just not, you know, when I ask April questions, she's got specific answers for me. And these are answers that your life may depend on. April, what do you want to build? Well, I just want to build something out of wood, mostly because, you know, it's going to be a permanent structure and we're going to live in

it for the rest of our lives. You can also... April, April, it's amazing to me how you guys are coming from such completely divergent frames of reference. This guy is talking to me like, I just want to live in a yurt, like I'm supposed to know what a yurt is. Right. Meanwhile, you're starting from the point of view is like, I'm thinking about building something out of wood as if that is not the default building material for centuries. Well, you know, the argument that Walter has is that it, it's expensive, which is, which is true. What is expensive?

But there's a reason why it's expensive. It's because it's sturdy and you can add to it. You can customize it. Whereas a year is you get what you buy. You just get the circular thing. You can't really add to it. It's hard to customize it. There's no walls inside of it. So, you know, what if we have a bathroom? Like, how are we going to use the toilet without, you know, like I don't feel comfortable using the toilet in the middle of a giant room. It just doesn't make any sense. Yeah, Walter, what if you have a bathroom? What if that contingency comes to pass?

If we were to have a bathroom, we could put walls up inside the earth. Okay. Are you going to have a bathroom or not? We will have a bathroom. Okay. What kind of bathroom are you going to have? Is it going to go, you're going to have a septic system? Uh, it would, it would kind of depend on the, I guess the area where we build it, what kind of system we would have if, if close. Could you give me a vaguer answer? I probably could.

But if we were able to be hooked up to a sewage system, I would opt for that. April, are you going to be near a sewage system? Preferably, only because it costs a lot of money to get plumbing hooked up to a city's main plumbing. But yeah, I can't see myself living without plumbing. It's just not something I can do. No, no, no. I'm not suggesting you live without plumbing, but typically in rural areas, and this is true about Massachusetts, I don't know about where you are going, but you have the option to dig a well.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Pump water out of the ground, and then you would give your waste over to a buried septic system. I have talked about that, actually, but I don't have enough knowledge to really know how successful that is as a method. Oh, it's successful. Well, if it is, and if it's viable, I'm all for it. But I haven't done any research on the well system. All right. So it does sound as though both of you are in agreement that you want electricity and plumbing. But it also sounds as though neither of you have really done real-world investigation as to what that's going to cost or entail, given the area that you're looking at.

Well. Is that correct? Somewhat. I mean, I do know that most of the rural areas out here already have plumbing. So it would actually be difficult to find a piece of property that didn't already have something built on it. I mean, we have a lot of empty space here, but it's not as empty as like the middle of the United States.

You know, it's still a coastal state. Right. But I mean, when you say like the middle of the United States. You know, it's still a coastal state. Right. But I mean, when you say that the homes in the area where you're considering buying have plumbing, do you know if they're hooked up to a city sewer system and a city pipe system? Or are they self-contained well and septic tank systems? Or do you not know? For the most part, they are. I had a client last year. I had to help get connected to the main city line. And I think they even have laws that are enforcing the residents to hook up to the main city line. And those residents have to pay that price.

Okay, gotcha. So you've done a measure of research in this area. Yeah. And I think we've lived here long enough. We just have basic knowledge, but I think we're primarily focusing on the structure itself. The property, there's just so many variables. We don't know where to start until we have the money and they can go look for the property and then consider those variables. But you're saying that most properties out there already have a structure on them. Why not just buy a home? Or if you buy a property with a home on it, what are you going to do? Tear it down? Well, yeah, that's actually something I think is probably more realistic, too, is to just find something that already has property on it. But, you know, there's always the risk of getting a piece of property that is run down or maybe there's a meth lab in it. There's just a lot of houses out there with asbestos. And, you know, there is a possibility that we might not be able to

live on whatever that building is. And that's kind of where we bring in, well, we can just build our own and it could be small, and it'll be cheaper to take care of in the long run. So are you saying that this build your own is a contingency if you are unable to find a home that you want to live in? Or do you actively want to build your own is a contingency if you are unable to find a home that you want to live in or do you actively want to build your own little house or your it's a it's a means of saving money um we want to live cheaply so let's talk about that you say so so you are you're proposing the rather revolutionary idea of building with wood a small structure that some would describe as a home tell me about your dream home what its advantages are, and how much it would cost.

A standard A-frame home made out of whatever cheap wood we can find, you know, is fine by me. I would like to have separate rooms, like, you know, the kitchen and the main room could all be one room, but I would like to have a bedroom and a bathroom. And then I would like to have some room for adding more bedrooms, uh, for, you know, children, if we decide to have children and for certain they're going to want their own bedrooms eventually. So that is what I would like. Um, as far as Costco, I called a man, uh, who builds small homes in Oregon and, um, just the cost of lumber alone would cost, uh, for,000 square foot home, like $10,000. He said he spent on a 400 square foot home, like nearly $20,000 once before. But I think his standards are really high and our standards are not so high right now.

So you called a home builder, right? Yeah. Someone who's built homes. Right. Yeah. Someone who's built homes. Right. Yeah. And the comparable, because Walter's talking about a yurt that's about 314 square feet for a 400 square foot home, which is small, right? This guy gave you a ballpark of about 20 grand. Yeah, just for lumber.

Oh, just for lumber. Yeah. I thought you said 1,000 square foot. It was $10,000. Well, that was a home I just found on the internet. It has nothing to do with that designer who builds homes in Oregon. April is saying that she's willing to settle for lower quality wood, like maybe scratch and dent wood or fell off the back of the truck wood. Oh, yeah. Or just log it herself.

Oh, yeah. Sure. Okay. What you want to live in is like the Our Gang clubhouse. Yeah. I mean, I think insulation, though, is probably key here because that's where we're going to save our money. Oh, do you think so? Yeah. What does the temperature drop down to in this part of Oregon in the wintertime? 30s. Maybe it'll dip into the 20s a little bit when it gets really cold. But I would say the coldest is generally in the 30s. And how are you going to heat your home?

I would like it to be heated by a wood burner just because it makes more sense. We can gather wood. We won't have to rely on electricity or gas, which can be really expensive. So, yeah. So like a wood burning stove? Yeah. So, yeah. So like a wood-burning stove?

Yeah. And you're going to gather that wood and you're going to cut it yourself and stack it yourself? Yeah. All right. So tell me about how much is your house going to cost, your dream home? You're the one who's proposing that this be built. Tell me the cost. My price limit would be $50,000. The one I'm looking at right now is probably like 30,

35,000. But if there's any thing that goes wrong or we have to buy extra things, I would say 50 is my limit. And what is that buying? The lumber? Everything, the excavation, the foundation, the wood, the windows, the electricity, the plumbing. The foundation, the wood, the windows, the electricity, the plumbing. And the construction? No, no, the labor costs are not considered in that. That's an interesting omission. Well, the thing is, I assume we would build it or my dad would help us build it.

Your dad builds, is in construction, right? Yeah. All right. That is the only reason that I'm letting you get away with what you were saying. And then just last question for you, Walter, your yurt, your 18K yurt, that's buying insulation, right? Is that buying the stove itself? No. No, that does not include the stove itself. It does include the flashing for the stove.

Yeah, I love flashing. All right. And I'm looking here at yurts.com, also known as Pacific Yurts Inc. And I got some very pretty, pretty pictures here of the yurt. Let me ask you this. And I got some very pretty, pretty pictures here of the yurt. Let me ask you this. Does this 18K buy you the yurt installation? No, it does not include installation.

It seems pretty easy to set up. So between the two of us and some friends. I've heard everything I need to hear. I'm going into my underground bunker chamber now, and I'll render my decision in a moment. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. April, it sounds like you're going to be holding down the homestead while Walter is, you know, arguing in favor of mineral rights holders in rural Oregon before country judges. At what point in your life have you had the most manual labor as part of your day-to-day life?

And how much manual labor was it? That would be right now. And it mostly is, you know, I've built like a table for our house and I do garden work. And then I do a lot of jarring and canning and basic home sustainability things. What proportion of your time would you estimate you spend on that? How many hours? A good like four, three to four hours a day. I mean, it's not that much because I have to work a lot. But on the weekends, I could say eight hours.

Walter, how about you? Yeah, I've had some manual labor jobs growing up, you know, when I was 18, 19, you know, doing wire installation and that sort of stuff. Currently, yeah, so, you know, take care of the garden and I don't really can. April's really the canner. But yeah, I'd say, you know, one to two hours a day.

You ready to chop some wood? I guess that's what this boils down to. Are you guys ready to chop wood? Yeah. And not with one of those ornamental Brooklyn Portland type axes where they paint something on it and then upcharge you $250.

Like a hardware store axe? Oh, yeah. Hardware store axe, fiberglass handle. Let's chop some wood. How are you feeling about your chances, Walter? Not very good. I'm a little nervous, so I wasn't able to answer some of the judges' questions as I would hope to have. But I think you might see the practicality of the yurt.

April, how are you feeling about your chances? I don't know. I'm a little nervous. I feel like the judge doesn't really like either of us. Well, I mean, you seem to be making some sort of ill-considered life decisions. Yeah, they're more like plans than decisions at this point. But yeah, I see where you're coming from. Like what's the number one thing you're going to can? Oh, probably beans, you know, protein. And it's what we eat.

We eat a lot of beans. I was going to guess loneliness. Maybe some of that. A lot of loneliness and despair. Well, we'll see what the judge has to say in just a second. We'll be back on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join, and you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel.

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They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom. So, you know, normally I listen in as you guys are having your conversation with Bailiff Jesse. But in this case, I didn't because I realized that my line was really bad as I went into my chambers. I said, I'm going to my underground bunker.

I was like, oh, I really should have done some more tent research before doing this because underground bunker that is so hack at this point. I could have said bell tent. I could have said I was going into my chum chambers, my fly chambers, my cotate chambers, my nomadic tent chambers, my pond doll, my tarp tent, my two peak, my wigwam or my yurt chambers. All of that would have been better. The thing is, when you make decisions, you can't always go back and fix them. Life is not a podcast. And some decisions lead to correcting a joke after the fact, and some decisions lead to you freezing to death in a tent. Here's the thing.

I am cautioning both of you extremely strongly. I like you both. I overheard that part about me of you extremely strongly. I like you both. I overheard that part about me not liking you guys. I like you both. I think you're great. And I want you to continue to live. But it is an adjustment. You have worked in a rural area and your dad, April, is a, is a instructor of homes. So you have some knowledge base to work off of. But have either of you ever lived in the woods meaningfully for a long period of time? No. No. Okay. It's different. And I barely know what it's like having

received from my family, a home in Western Massachusetts, that my wife and I were completely, even as even as job holding adults, completely unqualified to take care of. Because we had grown up essentially as overgrown, prolonged adolescents in New York City. This is what cities do to people. You live in an apartment, which is just an extension of dorm life. You tend to rent, so you don't really have a lot of sense of responsibility for the physical workings of the place where you were living. And you come to have the opinion that, well, there's no one living downstairs. So it's kind of like, it's all our house. None of it is your house. If that house

burns down, you guys go get another house. You don't deal with the consequences of owning a house, even in a city, nevermind out in the country where nature wants to kill you. We went out there, we went out there to that house. We didn't know what we were doing. I think within the first year of ownership, I had let the, uh, the, the propane gas, which heated the house completely run dry because it never occurred to me that I had to pay a bill to get more of it. I thought it came from magic. We showed up one night in the middle of the night to go to our country home and there was no heat, nor was there cooking fuel. And the place smelled like garbage because that's how the propane gas tank tells you, I need help. I'm almost out of gas.

Within the same year, my wife had decided to get rid of, the reason that we had the home was that my mom passed away. And there was a lot of food left over for years after my mom passed away in this house, old boxes of old canned goods, old boxes of Cheerios. And my wife, who had never encountered a garbage disposal in the previous 10 years of her life because we lived in New York City, decided the right thing to do, and frankly, for her, the exciting thing to do was to send all of it down the garbage disposal. You know what happens when you put three boxes of Cheerios down a garbage disposal? No. The Cheerios get stuck. They expand. They become a Cheerio clog.

All of the water backs up and you destroy your septic system. And this is a home that had existed for years. We just didn't know how things worked. And we learned over time through experience. And we also learned from our neighbor across the street who is a home builder who had built his own home. Because this is a rural part of Massachusetts, okay? We don't have a city plumbing line, right? We don't have garbage collection. And we don't have city water. And we also didn't have internet for the longest time. And we still don't. We have DSL, if you can call it that. And our neighbor across

the road had built his own house. And it was a revelation to go over there and to see a home that had built correctly, as opposed to our house, which was designed by an engineer who didn't believe he needed an architect. And therefore, like every house that is ever designed by an engineer, looking forward to your letters of therefore, like every house that is ever designed by an engineer, looking forward to your letters of engineers, like every house that was designed by an engineer, the bathroom opens directly into the living room. So that if you are using the bathroom, you can kick open the door and let everyone see you.

Plus, it was built on a shady bog that never got any sunlight. Whereas our neighbor picked land after building many homes, picked land on top of the hill at his house face southward, insulated the living heck out of it, put windows, massive windows on the southerly side, but almost zero windows on any other face of the house and put a single wood burning stove in the living room and has no furnace. And that thing is hot all year long. And we live in Massachusetts. Now, it would never have occurred to me to do that. It seems like you have the idea, April, of having a wood-burning stove, which is terrific.

But, you know, without insulation, all that heat and wood gets thrown away. I also know that this guy, you know, cuts a lot of wood. The guy also raises chickens. Chickens that my daughter got as chicks but could not be bothered to raise to life and death went over across the street, and they eat the eggs and kill the chickens for us city folk. It's a lot that goes on. A lot of knowledge base that goes on for living in the country in homes that are professionally built and existing or pre-existing. So that's my big word of caution. And I doubt, uh, that your dad would say any different. He gave me this lecture earlier. Yeah. I'm sure he's got a lot of ideas about his 25 year old

daughter moving to the woods with a 30 year old who wants to live in a tent. I think that the adjustment that you are going to make is going to be dramatic and also grand. Like, I think that you at least have an idea of what you're getting into and are excited about it. And you already know how to can. And that's great. I think that you guys should absolutely do this. I think it'll be exciting, fun, wonderful. But I think that you need to acknowledge, first of all, that you don't know

what you're getting into. Never mind about nature and rural community and rural life, but just about building homes. Your dad, I'm sure, is a great home builder. But my advice to you would be to take the $30,000 to $50,000 that you seem to feel you can afford to spend and buy a small home. I bet you you can find one in rural Oregon, even one that didn't have a meth lab in it. can find one in rural Oregon, even one that didn't have a meth lab in it. Get to know the rhythms of life. Get to know what you need to do to have in a home. Get to develop preferences for what kind of heating you want, what kind of insulation is good for you, whether you can, you know, what areas are serviced by the city, what areas aren't. Look around. Spend a year or two just getting into the swing of things, developing some clients for your country law practice, being mindful that most people who

get into trouble on the law don't want to come over and talk to their lawyer in a tent. But that's not the choice that's been given to me. It's not whether or not we build a home or whether we buy a home. The choice that's been given to me. It's not whether or not we build a home or whether we buy a home. The choice has been given to me is whether we build a home or we build a tent. And I think you're going to be surprised when I say, I think you should build that tent. Neither option is very good. Both of them are going to leave you guys utterly reeling, right? With all of the misconceptions and unplanned force and unforeseen hazards that you clearly have not thought through because neither of you, neither of you, when outlining your your living situation told me how you were going to heat your home until I asked you. This is number one, number one,

heating and insulation is number one, number one. And if you subscribe up to that dwell magazine, not to buzz market, all you're going to do is see ads for incredibly cool looking prefab homes. And believe me, about 30 to 90% of them are in Oregon already. And these are like space age modular homes that are designed to fit together perfectly, be foolproof and provide you with a lot of sustainable heat, a lot of sustainable lifestyle because they retain heat and they're well designed and they're

tight as a tick as opposed to you throwing together a house of your own design out of scrap lumber with the with the bathroom looking directly into the living room and the closest thing to a prefab home that is on offer here is this yurt company one of many competing yurt companies just so no one thinks that i'm in the is this yurt company. One of many competing yurt companies, just so no one thinks that I'm in the bag for yurts.com. And I looked at their website and I looked at some other websites and there's some pretty sweet yurts you can get. Pretty sweet, pretty sweet yurts. And at 18 grand plus installation and, you know, and, and construction, which I think you should splurge for

rather than just sort of look at it yourselves. Yet someone at least who's put one of these things up before to work with you, you will have an adventure, which is commensurate with the adventure that you were undertaking overall. You will have something that you can live in. You will realize how wrong you

were. You will, at that point, after a couple of years of living and pooping in a tent, you will realize you will, I hope, have built up enough of a client base that you will be able to now construct or find someplace more permanent to live. And you will have some stories to tell. And if you maintain the property, then you'll have a guest yurt for your better place. But for the time being, if money is tight, and if adventure is what you're after, at least you know that these yurts are designed to fit together properly.

You will know their limitations and I hope you will not freeze to death in them. You can put up walls inside the yurt according to the website that I looked into. You should. And I highly recommend that until you know better, put a outhouse, a chemical toilet outside of your yurt, follow the instructions of your nomadic ancestors, and do not put feces where you live. To clarify, this is not a good idea. Thank you. That's all I want. I would much rather you spend $30,000 on a house you can live in than $20,000 on a fantasy tent. But if money is the object, I think this is the more affordable. more safeguarded bet than building a home from scratch on a very limited budget with no experience,

personally. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the court. April, how are you feeling right now? I got mixed emotions. I feel glad that Judge John Hodgman emphasized what a bad idea yours is. Judge John Hodgman emphasized what a bad idea your is. And I feel like maybe we can pursue the plan of looking for a prefab home or just a home that already is a structure rather than a tent.

Walter, it sounds like you've got a good shot at building your dream tent. Yeah. With this woman you've kidnapped. How are you feeling? Pretty good. Pretty good. This woman you've kidnapped. How are you feeling? Pretty good. Pretty good. I'm feeling vindicated. I recognize the limitations of the yurt and take the judge's warning seriously. But I think I am vindicated in that the yurt is a better idea than trying to build a small

home ourselves. April Walter, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Good luck, guys. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club

with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-R. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will.

Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Judge, I like what you've done with your chambers. Thanks.

Yeah, I put in a small makeshift gin distiller in here and I put a sign outside that says, welcome to the swamp. You know, I was just impressed that you built a wall around your toilet. Well, I figured it was about time. Sure. You want to clear the docket? I do. First of all, before you guys, everyone sends me letters.

I clearly made a mistake. You are not going to be able to buy a home for $30,000 even in rural Oregon. There are some homes that I saw online for $60,000 to $90,000, under $100,000. And maybe those were used as meth labs.

So I guess I'm rethinking the entire... I really do hope that they buy a home. I think that that's the right call. But I really hope they pick a good yurt. Here's a letter from Jake. I do not agree with your ruling on the English pronunciation of the word Bo, which is as you pronounce it,

because a proper pronunciation has long been established. The rest of the country is just late in hearing about it. I live in Garden Grove, California, home to nearly 50,000 Vietnamese Americans. There is a pho restaurant on literally every block. No one here, Vietnamese speaking or English, pronounces pho with a long O. Everyone pronounces the soup with a pho sound. Pho has long been popular in Orange County, so I say that the precedent of pho being correct is already established. This pronunciation is consistent with words like jalapeno.

We recognize that in Spanish you pronounce a J with an H sound, but do not say it with a Spanish accent. Kind of do. Jalapeno? Jalapeno. Jalapeno? Jalapeno. Jalapeno? That's what the trailer park boys say. Is that what they say?

Yeah, they do. It's really great when they say that. P.S. If you're ever near Garden Grove, California, I recommend Baloo on the corner of Brookhurst and Westminster. Well, first of all, I was not listening at all because I was rethinking my lines from the actual case. And I'm going to do this unprecedented, Jesse, unprecedented.

I'm reversing my decision. I really thought this through. I realize now that for the past couple of cases, I've been listening to husbands and wives or boyfriends and girlfriends, and I've been reflexively finding on the side of the boyfriend, because so many people are yelling at me all the time, for always finding on the side of the girlfriend or wife. And I think that happened in this case. I think I had bias. Going through my notes again, I realized that I had bias because now that I know that you can't buy a home in Oregon for $50,000, even in rural Oregon, that year, it just seems dumber and dumber.

I'm taking it back. I'm reversing my decision, Jesse. Don't get them back on the phone. Just send them a missive. They should build a home under the strict guidance and oversight of her dad. Her dad's got to agree to build that home for them. Her dad's got to agree to build that home for them for no more than $50,000, as small as it needs to be, a safe, practical, lovely home for $50,000

that her dad builds as a licensed contractor and oversees every decision and instructs them on how to run that home and how to keep that home and why he built it the way he did. And if he doesn't agree to do it, then she can tell him that I'm going to let her boyfriend build her a yurt. And that ought to get everything done. Oh, I feel much better about that decision. I thought there was something wrong there. I thought you were reversing yourself on foe versus fuck. Oh, no. To the you were reversing yourself on faux versus pho. Oh, no. To the faux dude, I say pho.

Beginning with his very first sentence. Well, it's long been settled in this part of the country that you say pho. Yeah, that's the point. It's a regionalism. It's long been settled in that particular part of the country that you can wear flip-flops to a wedding. And it's long been settled in Vietnam that it's pronounced pho, or however you pronounce it. I understand that. I never said that pho was the correct pronunciation.

However, I think, based on my talkabouts here in the city of New York, that that's more or less how it's called. And I bet you that's going to change within a couple of years and I will change with it. I think you're wrong. You don't think it'll change or I'm just plain wrong? I think you're just plain wrong. I think it'll probably change eventually, but it'll mostly change because you're wrong. You and your fellow New Yorkers. Look, New York's on the cutting edge of most things.

You're way behind the curve on pronouncing P-H-O as pho. Yeah, well, that's because we're, I mean, weirdly, we're way behind the curve on Vietnamese food in general. Best Vietnamese food in North America is on the western coast of the United States and Canada. No doubt about that. Yeah. All right, what's the next one?

Here's something from Tony. Sure, Tony, go. Judge Hodgman, I noticed that you've referenced Jonathan Richman on your podcast recently. Yes. I thought you'd be interested to know about this important piece of legislation pending before the 188th General Court of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Yes. It would name Roadrunner the official rock song of the Commonwealth.

I feel that with your support, we can get this bill out of committee and signed into law. And here's a note. As of July, the bill was referred to the Joint Secretary on State Administration and Regulatory Oversight. It has not been scheduled for a hearing, but there has been a competing bill introduced to name Dream On by Aerosmith as the official rock song of the Commonwealth. Oh, oh my goodness.

Massachusettsians, oh Commonwealthies, my Commonwealthies, do not allow this to happen. Please, everyone, write your state representative. Write everyone you know in power. Write every roast beef house and clam shack and mediocre pizza place in your Commonwealth. and mediocre pizza place in your commonwealth. And let them know, Dream On by Aerosmith, as fine an anthem as that is, must not become the official rock song of my commonwealth.

Dream On has nothing to do with Massachusetts. Roadrunner has everything to do with Massachusetts. They name check stop and shop in Roadrunner. Do the right thing, people of Massachusetts. And when I get home, I'm gonna write a letter too. Don't let them

slow walk this. Don't let Steven Tyler win another one. This one's for Jonathan Richman, everybody. Let's make this happen. The bill in question is Bill H3573, sponsored by Representative Martin J. Walsh of Boston and Senator Robert L. Hedlund. So, you know, write your representative.

Robert L. Hedlund, assistant minority leader, Republican of Weymouth. This isn't about party. Martin J. Walsh, representative, a Democrat of Dorchester. This is about believing in something. These guys, they're working across the aisle for you. I'm writing Martin Walsh a note right now. Here we go. Roadrunner. Dear Representative Walsh, my name is John Hodgman. I am from Brookline, Massachusetts, and I host a podcast with several tens of millions of listeners.

We'll say that, right? Okay. Fair. Fair. It's a rough estimate. It's a ballpark. It's a ballpark. And we have heard of your bill to nominate Roadrunner as the official state song of Massachusetts. to nominate Roadrunner as the official state song of Massachusetts. We would like to help in your efforts.

Apart from mailing every roast beef sandwich shop in Massachusetts, how can we offer practical aid to your cause? Sincerely, John Hodgman from television and internet radio. All right. Sent. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. No dispute too big, too small. We especially love to hear from people who aren't married to each other.

That's like one of our top. I mean, look, if you're married to each other, don't let that stop you from submitting a case. But I'm just saying, if you're out there, you got to dispute with your best friend, a co-worker, your boss, a local legislator, a local mob boss. Anyone who would be willing to appear with you on the show. Yeah.

Go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHo and submit your case. And you know what? If you happen to overhear a dispute between a couple of friends of yours, suggest it to them. It's easy. MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. And no funny business, okay? If I'm in the middle of a

case and I realize that these two people who are claiming to be friends are actually spouses, I'm going to shut it right down. Judge Hodgman is still touring our great nation. You can find his tour dates online at johnhodgman.com and you can discuss our cases in our delightful forum at forum.maximumfun.org. And we encourage you to come in there. Tell us why we're wrong. I mean, you'll come in there. Tell us why we're wrong. I mean, you'll be wrong if you tell us that we're wrong. But, you know, come in there and speak your piece.

And Jesse, I'm not just touring our great country. I'm also touring my great Commonwealth. I'll be at the Wilbur Theater in Boston on Saturday night, November 2nd. Late night show, 945 p.m. I'm not going to lie to you. I'm coming on after that Colin Mochrie doing a great show there. If you're seeing that show, stick around. Come see me. If you're not seeing that show, come on out late at night. It's a brand new comedy. November 2nd, you can check out the ticket sales are at johnhodgman.com forward slash tour, or I think it's bit.ly slash jhlatenights. Check it out.

And remember, the Judge John Hodgman podcast is sponsored by Hulu Plus, where you can binge on thousands of hit shows. Get an extended free trial of Hulu Plus at HuluPlus.com slash Judge John. Elizabeth Loring named this week's case. Our thanks to Elizabeth. Like us on Facebook. Just search for Judge John Hodgman. Or follow us on Twitter. I'm at Jesse Thorne, J-E-S-S-E-T-H-O-R-N.

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