Judge John Hodgman - Diss Bard

Episode Date: August 16, 2023

Howie brings the case against Mark. The two of them worked at rival summer camps. When the two camps came together for a sports festival at Howie's camp, Howie was tasked with singing a "sit down song" to corral the campers. Mark's campers sat down but Mark didn't. Howie called Mark out in song, embarrassing him in front of everyone. They have since become friends, but they say this incident colors their relationship. Mark says he shouldn't have been embarrassed by a fellow staff member. Howie says that he was simply helping Mark to lead by example. Who's right? Who's wrong?Thanks to reddit user u/Mutant_Friend for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com! Check out evidence from the episode on the Judge John Hodgman page on the Maximum Fun website or at Instagram.com/judgejohnhodgman.Judge John Hodgman’s Van Freaks Roadshow is getting ready to hit the road! Tickets are on sale now! Visit vanfreaksroadshow.com for dates, cities, and more information! And SUBMIT YOUR CASES along the tour route at maximumfun.org/jjho!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, disbarred. Howie brings the case against Mark. Years ago, Howie and Mark were counselors at rival summer camps. When the camps came together for a sports festival at Howie's camp, it was Howie's job to sing a sit-down song to help corral the campers. When they heard the song, Mark's campers sat down, but Mark didn't. Howie called out Mark in song, embarrassing him in front of everyone. Howie and Mark have since become friends, but they say this incident has colored their relationship since. Mark says he shouldn't have been embarrassed by a fellow adult. Howie says he was just helping Mark lead by example. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman

enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. Just like you would to your eyes-odd shirt, be true to four wins now. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in. Howie and Mark, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do.

I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he probably went to the bad kids camp across the lake? I do. I do too. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Howie and Mark, you may be seated, or as I have heard it said, sit down, sit on down.

Everybody, let's sit down. Sit down, you two, for an immediate summary judgment on one of your favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture I referenced when I entered the courtroom? Howie, let's start with you. What is your guess? I'm going to guess Wet Hot American Summer. Wet Hot American Summer, a very, very funny movie about summer camp if you haven't watched it everyone watch it and then watch the sequel that came out what 20 years later or something right jesse yeah something like that really funny stuff really funny stuff great guests howie

great summer camp themed guests what about you mark boy i'm really stumped. I'm trying to place Four Winds and Izod. I don't know. It must be like an 80s camp movie, like Meatballs or something like that. Just like you would to your Izod shirt, be true to Four Winds now. Meatballs is a good guess. That's a good summer camp movie. I'll put both of those guesses in. Any other guesses?

No, because both guesses are wrong all guesses are wrong between the two of you mark was the the least wrong because because it is a reference to a particular summer camp but where you got tripped up and for heaven or whatever's sake why wouldn't you be you presume that i was quoting a piece of popular culture from a movie when in fact i was actually quoting a camp song so only people who had ever gone to this camp the specific camp four winds camp boy would know this song and they are not you because this is a defunct all girls camp that used to grace the shores of walker pond and sergeantville main now i did not go to this

camp either and neither did either of you obviously but one listener of ours mary did and some time ago she sent a letter that i will read after the credits describing her time at four winds camp as well as her larcenous encounter with the actual bad kids camp across the lake the rich kids camp the notorious and incredibly ironically named Robin Hood camp, which we have discussed before on the program. But now let's proceed to this case, the case of your two summer camps at Feud. Who seeks justice in this fake internet court?

I do, Your Honor. That would be Howie? That's right. Howie, please state the nature of your complaint or sing it if you will. So Mark and I have known each other for 20 plus years now, and it feels to me like our very first interaction, which he experienced negatively, has remained in the background of all of our subsequent interactions.

And so I'm here today to clear it up. What happened? It was during a time when I was the song leader at my summer camp, which was a Jewish summer camp in the Laurentian mountains of Quebec. And there are a surprising number of Jewish summer camps in that area. Enough so that every summer, one camp would host a sports festival with all of the other Jewish summer camps in the area,

and each camp would send a delegation, and they'd have a day of sports among the campers. Would this be outside of Montreal? That's right, yes. Well, it's a very historic Jewish population in Montreal. That's right. So did Well, it was a very big, very historic Jewish population in Montreal. That's right. So did your camp have a name, Howie? My camp was called Y Country Camp. Y Country Camp. It's very existential. Y Country Camp. That's right. By the end of the session, you will have an answer. It won't be the same answer as anyone else.

you will have an answer. It won't be the same answer as anyone else. We called it YCC. That was how we, we, we normally referred to it and his name for the, for the Jewish community center in Montreal. Cause that's what it was based out of. Got it. Got it. So you're having a sports fest and, and YCC is hosting the sports fest. That's right. And another camp is joining and that's Mark's camp, correct? Mark's camp and probably three other camps from the region each sent a delegation. Got it. And so Mark was visiting in the capacity of a counselor at this other camp. Is that right, Mark?

Yes, that's right. I was the program director of the other camp. So the peer is sort of questionable technically you know perhaps i was do a little more you outranked you outranked howie it's immaterial but probably yes i don't know it sounds pretty material to me sounds like the first thing you brought up so it must be important yeah i mean i'd like to get the hierarchy clear here uh where does a song leader stand relative to a program director? Yeah, exactly. So who stays on the boat longer when it's sinking?

Well, when somebody has to play while it goes down. Right. Okay. So Mark comes over as a program director of what is the name of your camp, Mark? It was called Camp Kinneret. Camp Kinneret. Okay. And how you noticed that Mark doesn't like to sit down and follow the rules when the song master is singing? Well, so for some reason, every camp activity, in athletic campers from the various camps, they will be forced to sing together at the end of the day in some kind of group song. Sure. Often for points so that the judges can adjust the scores so that everything is a lot closer than it might have been before the end of the day. than it might have been before the end of the day.

Oh, so singing becomes a competition to even out the obvious athletic advantage that, say, Camp Kinear had over YCC, I'm presuming. That's right, except that, as Mark will tell you, in his view, his campers were outmatched at every turn during the sports festival. Mark's camp was much smaller than my camp. So the delegation that he sent was effectively the entire camp. I see. Okay. So let's get to the actual complaint. What I understand is you're wrapping up the day. You as song master in the host camp, Howie,

are singing a little song, which we're going to hear in a minute. Don't worry about it. Everyone's going to be excited. And the song is encouraging people to sit down and Mark isn't sitting down. That's right. So somehow in that summer, in the weeks leading up to that day, the sit down song had become that summer's tradition. And it was totally by accident. I was sound checking to make sure the sound equipment worked one day. And I was trying to get everybody seated. And it just slipped out of my mouth. But as sometimes things do in these small communities of people,

the campers got very excited about this song. And they would ask for it every time we would get together as a group. And I think part of what was fun about it. You don't have to justify singing to me, Howie. I'm pro-singing. You're evading the point of contention here. You're giving a lot of background. Okay. So I didn't know Mark's name, but I knew he was the program director at Camp Kinneret, and I knew he wasn't sitting. So in the context of my sit-down song, I called him out and I said,

Captain Kinneret, sit on down, sit on down on the ground or words to that effect. Yeah, no, we have the song and we're going to listen to it right now. Sit down, sit on down, everybody let's sit down. Sit down, sit on down, everybody let's sit down. everybody let's sit down grab a seat on the floor or else I'm gonna sing some more let's sit down sit on down everybody let's sit down take a seat on your butt then I'm gonna tell you what you gotta sit down sit on down everybody let's sit down Captain Kin Kinera, sit on down. You sit right down upon the ground. You got to sit down, sit on down.

Everybody let's sit down. Yeah. Judge Hodgman, before we continue, we should credit the producer of that recording, legendary ethnomusicologist Alan Lomax. recording legendary ethnomusicologist alan lomax i i'm not sure jesse because i don't think that that's an archival recording is it howie that's something that you worked up in your studio today uh yeah recently yeah yeah recorded on wax cylinder okay it was beautiful but that's not that's not tape from the camp that's a dramatic recreation of the song that you sang yeah that's of years ago.

That's right. I don't remember the exact words I used, but this was something I would do regularly when we didn't have visitors. I would call people out by name if they weren't sitting to sit with their campers because that was the leadership philosophy at the camp. Sure.

No, I mean, every camp has its own sort of vibe and style, and YCC was the camp of Sure. No, I mean, every camp has its own sort of vibe and style, and YCC was the camp of musical bullies. Finally. I think in all situations the man with the acoustic guitar is king, especially with a microphone on top of it.

Yeah, you had a PA system. You sent in, along with that song, some evidence including a photo of you, Howie, really rocking out at YCC camp. This is archival footage, is it not? This is a photo from around this time. That's right. Yeah, and we'll share this, obviously, on our show page at MaximumFun.org, as well as our Instagram account, at JudgeJohnHodgman on Instagram.

I quote, This is me, Howie, performing song leader duties and displaying my questionable late 90s facial hair. Goatee aside, how could anyone deny that punim? Howie, you're hot in this photo. It was a good moment for me. Mark, wouldn't you agree? Hot. Yes, look at those guns.

Look at those guns. You've really, everyone seems to be wearing a white T-shirt in this photo, including the campers or counselors in the background behind you. Was this a theme night, white T-shirt night? On Friday nights, we all would wear white T-shirt to welcome the Sabbath. You rolled up your sleeve and we can see your arm. You rolled up your sleeves to welcome your biceps. Exactly.

Everybody sits down at the gun show but but while this is evidence that you submitted howie of of your incredible style and song leading charisma uh it also is evidence for mark's contention that you were obviously amplified and had the power of amplification. That's true. When you called out Mark, Captain Kinearit, sit on down. Captain Kinearit's a pretty cool name, Mark. Is that something that you went by or is that just an improvisation on Howie's part?

No, that's not something I went by. It was definitely an improvisation on Howie's part and was obviously intended as a bit of a slight. As a bit of a slight. Objection, your honor. Allow it? What's your objection? I don't think Mark can know my intention.

He may argue that was my intention, but really my intention was to lovingly, jokingly ask him to sit so that we could proceed in the way that we were accustomed to at the host camp. Right. Because here at YCC, when I'm singing, you sit down. Well. Or I'm going to roast you musically more that it's my job to get everybody seated and this was the way that had worked all summer so to me i was just and had you had you roasted

anyone else yes this way yes it was it was a fellow counselors or yes campers fellow counselors as well i would only roast the counselors i wouldn't roast the campers? Fellow counselors as well? I would only roast the counselors. I wouldn't roast the campers. Oh, okay. And all of the counselors understood that it was meant as a loving joke and reminder that this is what's expected of them when we're trying to get the camp. Yeah, but I need not point out to you, Song Leader Howie, that Captain Kenear was a guest from a far off land.

That's right. Mark, how far away is Kenear camp? Well, there's two types of far away. There's the distance. Why are all these summer camps in Montreal existential? I think it's worth mentioning, like, I would say perhaps Mary and I would see really eye to eye in some ways. And so, yeah, they weren't far away from each other in terms of a drive. It was about 45 minutes or something like that.

They were far away from each other in that. In their spirit. And size. And, you know, camps like Howie's hosted the sports festival. And, you know, camps like Howie's hosted the sports festival. Our camp couldn't host the sports festival because, like, there was basically like a road running through our sports field. And we didn't really have, you know, those types of facilities or that kind of space to host a camp like that. So you were the one who brought up meatballs. So you were the one who brought up meatballs. In the meatballs scenario, your camp is the small rickety underdog camp.

And YCC is the rich kids camp, the Robin Hood camp across the lake. The ones that have the matching tracksuits. And they travel around Maine in a luxury bus and so forth. That's kind of Robin Hood. Wearing white t-shirts and shaming counselors across the state. In this case, province, you know, we didn't have a budget for a song leader or a PA system for that matter. So, you know, it was all it was all fear and feeling, you know, foreign.

And so that basically what what the other camps would do to prepare for the sports festivals, they would have tryouts where the best athletes would try to make the teams that would compete in the sports festival. We didn't have tryouts because we didn't really even have enough kids, you know, for all the teams. And so that year, basically, if you were that age, you played on that team. And so that year, I advocated to try something different, which was instead of taking, you know, the majority of the camp to the sports festival, we'll just take everybody because nobody's trying out anyway. So we're going to take the entire camp to the to the sports festival. And so it was a it was a bit of a it was a bit of a conversation with the director to convince him that that was reasonable and that I'd be able to keep track of everybody. Right. And that it wouldn't you know, it wouldn't get chaotic and, you know, all that kind of stuff. all that kind of stuff. And so that was weighing sort of heavily on me, I guess, as we were arriving in the sit down situation. Tell me how you felt in that moment when you realized you were being

sung about by Howie. In that exact moment, it was humiliating, humiliation, an embarrassment. I was trying to set an example for my kids who were intimidated, and they're discovering things at this camp that we would never, you know, indoor basketball and all these things, and they're all sitting there. Indoor basketball? Discovering indoor basketball? No, no, no.

This is, they thought it was chutzpah when Columbus suggested he discovered America. But for your kids to have discovered indoor basketball. This is a level of facilities that we were just not familiar with. And so they're all walking in nervous. Because they're about to have their... What's that? Hey, Mr. Mark, what's that? It's like, oh, that's a swimming pool that's full of water, not rocks.

That's right. That's right. This is a rollerblading hockey rink. And they have instructors to show you, you know, those types of things. Wait, hold on. Howie, did your camp have a rollerblading hockey rink? We had a paved asphalt hockey rink.

It was not really well suited to rollerblading because it didn't get repaved that often. So we mostly played ball hockey in the hockey rink. You have to understand. I mean, I know that I felt the same way, Jesse, but then I remembered this is Canada. There's gotta be some form of hockey. Got it. But they had fancier, they had fancier facilities.

You were feeling like a real country mouse at Y country camp. And I was feeling that same thing from the kids who are all wide-eyed and they're ushered into this giant, you know, rec hall with more, you know. Now, did they have white T-shirts too or were they just dressed in rags? That's right. No, we sprung for fresh camp T-shirts, you know, because we had to represent because I had sold this thing to the director as this is going to be great. It's going to be a bonding thing. It's going to be a character building experience. We're going to go there.

We're going to be proud of who we are. We're going to play. They're feeling overmatched. They're feeling intimidated. And so I'm standing up and I'm trying to catch their eyes. And I'm trying also to make sure that I don't lose any of them and, you know, make sure that I have a count of them. But I'm trying to catch their eyes and, you know, roll my eyes or, you know, show them like, this is no big deal. Don't worry about this, guys. It's not, it's nothing. And then so as I'm doing

this, you know, imagine I am, you know, I've caught the eyes of one of the, of one of the Newcomb ball players, right? And what I'm doing is trying to show, yeah, yeah, you got nothing to worry about. Yes, they got tons of people. Sure, there's 500 people here. Yeah, this is, you know, this is no big deal. We got it, right? And I'm trying to, you know, make that connection.

Captain can hear it, sit on down. Captain can hear it, sit on down. Hey, you big dummy, sit on down. We're gonna whoop your butts in Newcomb ball. That's how it felt. Sit on down. Hey, you big dummy. Sit on down. We're going to whoop your butts in nukem ball. That's how it felt. Exactly. Right. So now the looks of the faces of the kids are mouths covered.

Oh, my God. Mouths agape. Did that just happen? And I kind of wheeled around. And looking at this, you could see, obviously obviously what Howie looked like at the time. Hot as hell. Right. Hot as hell in an amplified way.

Yeah. And I was just like, how is this possibly happening right now? And so I guess the other part of the context. Not even, how is this happening how is it happening how is it happening who does that who is howie right from the stage because you didn't you didn't know you didn't you guys didn't know each other at the time we knew i only knew how that's right i knew howie a bit. I knew of Howie because he played. The long bubbling rivalry of the Laurentian Mountains.

Howie V. Mark. That's right. Howie. We both also, we went to college together. We both went to McGill, University of Montreal. And I knew Howie in a kind of like a bit of a removed way. He played in a band, you know, that I would see sometimes, you know, at the famous Yellow Door coffee house. And so I guess that added, you know, to my level of, I don't know,

prejudgment of who I thought, you know, he was. You mean to say he was like a, he was like a, a rock star. Exactly. Has a, has a very high opinion of himself and his talents. And Howie, what was the name of your band? The name of the band at the time was Bear Left. Bear Left. I like it.

Right frog. Wowie zowie. Howie zowie. Wowie, howie zowie. Howie zowie. Wowie, howie zowie. It's true. Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor. We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. dot org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes

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a nice time. And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. So Howie was kind of a rock star to you when he calls you out from the stage. And was there a stage, Howie? Was there a stage?

It's possible. Mark is nodding. It's possible there was a stage. My memory is that this was outside and there wasn't a stage, but it's possible. So the indoor basketball courts that Mark is talking about. Brag, brag, brag about this indoor basketball. It's possible there was a stage. I remember we were at the Grand Coliseum.

Because it was something of an amphitheater. I was in the green room at the time. I can't recall. Yeah. I was in the green room at the time. I can't recall. Yeah. I don't know whether that was before we had the new lighting rig put in or not.

I remember the night before Stevie Nicks had asked to perform in the round. Yeah. It was a revolving. Was that when we had the revolving stage or the stage within the stage? Yeah. Right. Your memory is hazy. I'll defer'll defer to mark mark was there a stage yes or no uh there was a stage yes yeah yeah how it was in an elevated position that's right playing guitar also known as an axe and as they say the tree remembers the axe forgets

if mark remembers being humiliated by a guy named Howie on stage, I believe him. So did the, you say the kids covered their mouths, Mark. Were they laughing at you or were they just astonished? They were astonished. They weren't laughing at me,

but they were maybe embarrassed for me. But they were sitting down. They were sitting down, of course. All the kids sit down. What happened after Captain Kinnear at Sit On Down was issued from the microphone? Did you sit down then? Yeah. I mean, I faced with the choice.

I could have continued to stand in protest and risk another perhaps escalated, you know, shout out from the stage. Well, why were people sitting down in the first place, Howie? What was going to happen? This was going to be the, my memory is this was going to be the musical presentation portion. And so we were trying to get all of the attendees seated so that each delegation could come to the stage right and share their song got it and they were sitting in like it wasn't an amphitheater or was it like were they sitting on logs or were they sitting on well if it's if it's as tables or what if it's as mark remembers they were sitting on the floor of the basketball court. Oh, what kind of basketball court was it? Like, could you see the stars or no?

No. Like if it rained, what would happen in the basketball court? Would you get wet? No, it was an indoor basketball court. Oh, indoor. Wow. Sorry, I forgot about that detail. Pretty fancy.

Did you express your frustration to Hallie after this happened? We have never really talked about it like this until today. I don't think I ever owned up to having actually been embarrassed about it. It's something that I just sort of at first passive-aggressively aggressively dealt with and then we swept it under the rug. But you're friends now, right? Yes or no? Yes. How did you become friends after Howie humiliated you in this way?

Well, Howie was friendly with a lot of the people that I was friendly with. And our paths would continue to cross and continue to cross. He actually was roommates following that summer. He was roommates with a friend of ours, somebody who one of my roommates was also in a band with. And so we found ourselves spending time there. And, you know, the edge sort of began to wear off a little bit. And then there was this kind of moment, I guess. I found myself over there.

Over there at camp now? Excuse me. I'm sorry. Over at Howie and zach's apartment okay we can name people yeah zach you know he'll be fine um uh you know a bunch of people connect with us we're all sort of over there and um there was something you're all hanging around in montreal or where where are you that's right okay we're in much we're in Montreal so you're all you're all in the yellow door scene friends of friends your age is like what early 20s at this point yeah you're you're not doing the

camp thing anymore maybe you are but it's adult life now and and you're over at Zach's because you're drinking beers you're playing roller hockey you're eating bagels you're making out with youpi yeah just young adult Montreal stuff everybody's made that mistake yeah just some just a just a classic uh a classic fete of some kind a house fete exactly yeah exactly because Zach's got the cool apartment or whatever and there's Howie classic fete of some kind, a house fete. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Because Zach's got the cool apartment or whatever, and there's Howie across the room.

And tell me what happened. Right. So Zach and Howie were sharing this apartment. They live in this apartment. And I can't remember exactly what the details were. You know, in Montreal, in what was affectionately at that time known as the student ghetto, Montreal, in what was affectionately at that time known as the student ghetto, you know, there was some kind of sketchy landlord, you know, behavior or whatever. So there was some there was an appliance. It was like a fridge or the freezer stopped working.

And instead of fixing it, the landlord just left it there and then like brought in like a chest freezer basically into this little apartment to be like, yeah, yeah, no, no, no. You still have a freezer. And then so Zach and Howie started using the surface of this freezer with a whiteboard marker to record the results of this contest that Howie would run for people, which was – Is this the premium plus challenge? It is. Oh. Is it appropriate to continue into the Premium Plus Challenge?

I insist. No, I've been told to be on alert for any mention of the Premium Plus Challenge. So I'm very curious to know what it is. Premium Plus was a brand of saltine crackers. I think they have them in the U.S. But they're not called Plus. We just call them premium. Ah, yeah, exactly.

And so in Montreal it would have been plus. Premium plus. Okay. And so, you know, the contest was simple. How quickly can a person eat 10 premium plus saltine crackers?

And, you know, you would be timed and then your score and name would be immortalized in a whiteboard marker on the side of this freezer. So, yes, this is a classic young dudes in their 20s hanging around with each other. Don't want to talk about feelings or more past recrimination, instead of just going to shove their mouths full of saltines, and that's how they bond. Kind of. Kind of. You know, there's a lot of people, mixed company, and how he introduces the game or the contest. And he's, you know, he's cleverly talking about it and offering tips for new people

on how you might be able to come close to his record with his name in big letters at the top. Howie was not only killing it at the yellow door, he was also killing it at Premium Plus. What I'm hearing is that Howie was not only an acoustic guitar bully, he was also a saltine bully. Yeah, you might say. Look, I didn't i didn't

necessarily feel bullied but it was triggering it had the familiar hallmarks of of what had transpired you know a summer ago let me just all right let's pause for a second so this was like a year later is what you're saying that this happened let me go back a year then, Howie, to that fateful evening in the indoor basketball court. You said that when you sang told Mark to sit down, you didn't know his name. So you sang Captain Caneerit. Whereas Mark says from the floor of the indoor basketball court that he already knew you from the Montreal music scene. From Mark's point of view, there's a power differential there.

Did you really not know at all who Mark was? I knew who he was, but I didn't know his name. I knew he was a friend of a friend, but we hadn't yet been introduced. Right. Now, I also felt the power differential. So Mark said earlier that he was a program director at his camp, and I was unaware of the relative size of his camp. I hadn't yet visited it.

And when Mark got off the bus from Camp Kinneret, he was carrying a walkie-talkie, a clipboard, and a set of keys. Those are some pretty big power signifiers, Mark. In the summer camp universe, there is no more powerful trio of symbols. So to my mind, Mark, who was my age or seemed about my age, but had attained this high rank of program director in some speedy fashion. Yeah. He wasn't sitting down because he didn't feel like he had to sit down. He was too good to sit down.

That was your read on Mark. That was my read of the situation. And from my perspective, I have a job to do, which is to get everybody who's in this beautiful indoor basketball court sitting on the dirty basketball floor. And the way that I do that, instead of yelling at them, is singing at them. Yeah, you gently nudge them down with song. I understand. I understand. But now that you know Mark,

song i understand i understand but now that you know mark is your assessment of him as a high status walkie-talkie carrying power figure the same or different no it's different uh how would you describe your friend mark i would describe mark as a kind generous and funny friend mark when did you reveal that you still had feelings about being told to sit down? I think it was when I actually verbalize it, it was actually at Howie's bachelor party. Oh, really? Like, so that's probably even what, 10 years even after that fact, where I actually said, I think I sort of half jokingly said, you know, you were my nemesis for a long time. And, you know, I'm happy to be standing here with you. And so that was the first time that I had ever outwardly, you know, mentioned that, you know, I had been thinking about it or have continued to think about it.

So you had become close enough friends via the Premium Plus Challenge, which we'll talk about in a second. You'd be invited to his bachelor party roughly a decade later. And now here it is. How long has it been since you went to that bachelor party, Howie? Roughly speaking. About 15 years. About 15 years. So when Mark said to you, you were my nemesis. You told me to sit down and made me feel bad. How did you feel at your bachelor party?

Well, I said, you know, I have still carried around the time that you destroyed my record in the premium plus challenge. And I still feel a little bit ashamed about that. Oh, turnabout was fair play. Oh, turnabout was fair play. So now in the saga of Mark and Howie, we roll back another nine years or so to Zach's apartment when Howie is describing the premium plus challenge. He was given some tips because he was the premium plus challenge champ. How many how many premium plus saltines were you able to eat, Howie? What was the record? Well, you had to eat 10 crackers as fast as possible.

As quickly as possible. Okay, so what was your time record? I feel like it was like a minute and a half. A minute and a half. And what were your tips that you were bragging on when you were introducing these noobs to this incredible Zach's Kitchen game? I think it was, you know, don't take it slow because your mouth is going to dry up. So you got to get as much in as you can right away. And so what would that mean? Like you preload five?

You just don't take a break between crackers. Like don't... Do you have to eat them one at a time or can you do like two, four, six, eight? Yeah, I think there were no rules beyond you have to eat them one at a time or can you do like two, four, six, eight? Yeah, I think there were no rules beyond you have to eat 10. Okay, 10. And so it was in a minute and change, right? Is that what you said? Yeah, maybe 90 seconds. All right.

And then Mark stood up and said, I shall take the challenge. Yeah, and he did it in like 26 seconds. It was not close. Mark, do you remember that time when you ate all those crackers in 26 seconds? Sort of. Because I feel like I kind of blacked out when I was

doing it. I felt I'm not competitive, like at all, but I felt I just felt like I saw red, basically. And I was, I just felt like I saw red basically. And I was, I'm going to destroy this guy. I don't know.

I didn't even think about it. I just decided that I was, my name was going to be on the fridge. You hadn't been training for the Premium Plus Challenge or anything. You had no background in fast cracker eating. It was just a moment where you saw Howie again. You felt that wound from Camp YCC. And you're like, I'm going to go. I'm going to do this.

I'm going to get this guy now. Not so much in a vindictive way, but I, yeah. I basically said, you know, who's Captain Kinnarit now? He eats his crackers. Did that, I mean, obviously you became friends after that, such that a decade later you'd be at his bachelor party, correct? Yes. And he was incredibly gracious about having, you know, been destroyed in the challenge. you know, been destroyed in the challenge.

He shook my hand and congratulated me and said how amazing, you know, how he couldn't believe the time. And, you know, it's sort of, I saw a side of him which was, you know, he was happy to put somebody else on the stage or the spotlight. And so I felt a warmth from him that I hadn't. And I guess that was sort of a...

Now we had a shared thing because we were both very good premium plus eaters and we were both former champions. We had never really had a shared thing before other than being humiliated. It evened the uh the polished indoor basketball playing surface in a matter of speaking yeah and you and it set us it set the stage uh it set the stage for a stage that you could share and be friends at that point okay so

why why were you still dwelling on it nine years later? Why are we still talking about it today, Mark? I mean, it seems like why didn't eating 10 saltines as quickly as possible heal your wound? Do you know sometimes when, let's say, you're going to sleep, you're going to bed and you close your eyes, sometimes, right, it flashes into your mind or it flashes into your mind something really embarrassing that you've done or a moment that you have that just makes you cringe. And so, like, you know, being called out in front of 500 people and then, you know, meekly having to, you know, decide, you know, should I protest this or make a scene about it or do I sit down? So all these kids looking at me as an example and then I, you know, have to prostrate myself in front of the rock star and sit down. Do you think that I can give you what you want? If the saltines and the bachelor party conversation

and the 25 years of friendship hasn't been able to heal this wound, how can I help? Well, I think Howie really, truly, in a genuine way, believes that he was right. He was right to do that and that was – and so we've never addressed or talked about how – that was actually super embarrassing. And so that's where I feel like the judgment is important. Like was it in fact –

But there's a culture there's a cultural thing here mark because you're both canadian right yeah by birth so mark you should know how difficult it is for a canadian to say sorry the hardest thing it's just from birth they are trained, never say sorry. Never, ever say sorry. Howie, you're hearing what Mark is saying. Do you still think you were right? And even if you do think you were right in the moment, now that he's explained his feelings, why not say sorry?

I'm happy to say sorry. And I accept that his feelings are real and legitimate. And I can understand now that he's told the story in this way, why he might have had those feelings. But what sits with me is that he still thinks that I intended to humiliate him. That it was my goal to make him feel that way. When it wasn't. it was my goal to make him feel that way when it wasn't. And I feel like that, uh, characterization of, of, you know, who I am and who I was being in that moment has made it so that I don't think he can fully trust me and he, and I can't fully trust him because we still have this thing, this, you

know, this pebble in the shoe of our friendship. And, and Mark, do you maintain that you think that Howie set out to humiliate you? That it wasn't a misunderstanding? I don't think it was a misunderstanding. I don't think he set out to like, you know, grievously humiliate me. But the aim of it was to sort of, right, you're naming someone in front of the whole group and essentially shaming them to comply with the rest of what the rest of the group is doing. So right there, I don't know how else you would describe that. Was there a rivalry between the two camps such that you could presume sort of aggression, good-hearted or not i mean yeah we were we were literally rolling in so that we could participate in a sports festival

against each other right so you felt like there by by definition there had to be a little bit of knife twisting even if it was good-n natured and not meant to truly harm. But like you're the opposition in that case. That's right. Competitive edge. And despite seeing my walkie talkie and my clipboard, he still saw fit to call me out in front of the group, which was not a small group.

That's a five or 600 people. And so, yes, I maintained that. Did anyone refer to you as Captain Kinearit after that? I squashed that pretty quickly. So people did. So the answer is yes. On the bus ride home, some of the kids were trying that out. It's a very catchy tune. Captain can hear it, sit on down. Captain can hear it, sit on down. How do you feel when I sing it? Captain can hear it, sit on down. How do you feel when I roast you?

To be honest, when he played it earlier in the show, I haven't heard that song since the day. But when he played it earlier in the show, I knew every word of it. I sang it in my head along so it's it's with me it's with you how you covered your mouth when mark revealed that he had not heard it since then and it's still still and he remembers every word were you uh covering your mouth uh to yawn because oh this this boring dude or were you stifling a different emotion i'm i was i think i had a a mix a set of mixed emotions the first is

uh a bit of shame on my part that i've i've wounded my friends so badly but also a bit of pride on my part that as a songwriter, I wrote a song that's still in his head 20 years later. Oh, it's a very catchy tune. You're saying you're proud that your bullying is living in his head rent free. Mark, it says here that if I were to rule in your favor, you would like me to compel Howie to acknowledge that you were leading by example, that you did not deserve or need to be singled out and embarrassed musically in front of 500 kids.

And though he has not used those precise words, it does sound like he acknowledges now that he realizes that he hurt your feelings. Is that not sufficient? Yeah, I suppose it's sufficient. I think it just, i don't know it seems like when after you've done something you should own it but by contrast howie in his request for a ruling wants me to order every member of your friend group to call you captain can hear it once per

year in the group chat in the name of quote unquote humility. So he's asking for something pretty specific if I were to find in his favor. So is there, if I were to find in your favor and adjudicate that you were harmed, is there some concrete damages that I could award you? that I could award you? Perhaps by that same group chat and that same friend group, Howie could issue a sincere apology instead of trying to get people to continue to do what he did

in the first place. Howie, when you ask that I order every member of the friend group to call Mark Captain Kinnert once per year in the quote name of humility and quote, Mark seems pretty humble. Do you mean in the name of humility or in the name of re-humiliation? name of re-humiliation. I guess what I meant was I would like him now all these years later to recognize the spirit in which the song was intended, not as bullying, but as just a gentle, hey, we're all friends here. We can all laugh together at ourselves. I see.

Okay. I think I've heard everything I need to. I am going to go sneak into the tuck shop of my chambers and and and eat a lot of whatchamacallit bars and and have some bug juice. And I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Mark, how are you feeling about your chances? Mark, how are you feeling about your chances? Truthfully, pretty good.

I think you could see where the judge was naturally leaning when he asked about humility versus re-humiliation. Howie, how do you feel? You know, I've never been called a bully before, so I'm feeling a little put in my place. We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year.

Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky.

Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close.

Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. The Van Freaks Roadshow is about to get in gear. How many gears does a Mitsubishi Delica uh japanese market only adventure van have six five i'm gonna i'm gonna put it up to eight why not eight yeah eight probably they probably have some extra gears i've only ever driven a subaru sam bar which is what i have but i'm imagining myself i've got my left hand on the gear knob right now, right hand drive vehicle. And I'm putting the Delica up to eight because we're cruising on the freeway to Belfast, Northern Ireland.

We're taking that transatlantic freeway straight to Belfast, Northern Ireland. And following up with Dublin, Edinburgh, London, Copenhagen, then back over to the United States for a whole bunch of wonderful cities in the United States, some of which we've been to before, like Chicago and St. Paul, Austin, Texas, some we've never been to, like Lexington, Kentucky, and Charlottesville, Virginia, plus our nation's capital, Washington, D.C., and of course, the State Theater here in Portland, Maine, as well as, of course, our triumphant return to my hometown, sort of, of Boston, Massachusetts at the Wilbur Theater and our double triumphant return to Brooklyn at the Murmur Opera House, where not only will we be performing live for you, but also live streaming the show to the entire world. entire world we love antiques roadshow we love mitsubishi delica vans we love shows we love the road we love you we want to see you in all of these places and online you can get all the details at vanfreaksroadshow.com we have registered the domain vanfreaksroadshow.com for all your

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Why don't you go get them? Let's get back to the case. Please rise as judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom and presents his verdict. I think for two summers, I did go to camp Burgess and Cape Cod for two weeks. One time with Damon, one time, I think, with John Wolfe. Maybe both times with Damon. Anyway, with my friends. And I did not see the point and I did not like it.

I did not care for it. I saw through that pretty quickly that this is a kind of constant low-level trauma. No one ever bullied me. I'm just talking about having to shower in public no thank you for an only child this was the worst wait the showers at your summer

camp were public well i mean there were stalls you know down at the town square you had to walk through the woods you had to walk through the woods and flip-flops and a towel. This was not for a sensitive child of Brookline, Massachusetts. And I'm talking about, you know, Brookline is suburban, but it ain't the woods. And, you know, tests of strength and physical conflict. The only thing that I, we had a tick problem in our camp too. There was just, nature was just constantly trying to crawl up and into you so when we did our capture the flag uh event our team was called the ticks the fighting ticks that was my idea that's my one happy memory what i remember a lot

was what i remember a lot was spending uh you know nights listening to other kids in my bunk just like cry themselves to sleep because they were so homesick and I was too no number of Bloom County comic strips can ease the homesickness of an only child and yet

for all of this we sent our kids to a classic summer camp too. And I understand that people have a lot of fondness for camp that goes beyond mere Stockholm syndrome. Because I know that our daughter loved her experience of that camp and went on to become a counselor in training. She really lived it up. a counselor in training she really lived it up whereas our son sent home a letter which was i mean truly magnificent in taking the the pain and homesickness he was feeling and and forging it into a weapon to hurt us insofar as he wrote us a letter saying to hurt us insofar as he wrote us a letter saying,

camp is fine. I have two friends. Their names are clown and opera. Those aren't real people. Those are, those are the knots in the pine wood ceiling above my bunk that I talked to at night because I have no actual friends. Signed, your son. Boy.

Hello, mother. Hello, father. Yeah. And, you know, it was like, I don't know that he's ever going to forgive us for going to that camp the second time. We're like, you came to like it at the end. He's like, no, I didn't. Well, you you know people have

different experiences there is something about summer camp and the collision of people at that those ages right ages like let's say you know eight to eight to 12 or even 15 for campers. And then like 16 to 18 or 19 for counselors, like two groups that are very, very big emotional moments of transition and change in their lives. And those collisions can be very memorable and very, very fun and yet also traumatic. Or at least let's say memorable in a less fun way, right? And in particular, you know, when you have kids in charge of other kids,

you know, counselors who are themselves children in charge of children, the understanding of the roles of authority and the responsibilities of authority, it gets very blurry. Now, I believe Howie. I believe that Howie did not understand that Mark felt so vulnerable already. And I believe Howie when he says, I saw the walkie-talkie i saw the clipboard i saw the signifiers of authority and i saw the title and i felt here was a here was here was a figure of authority and who am i if not a goateed bard? A jester, if you will, whose job, nay, responsibility is to upset authority at every turn, if possible, and speak truth to the king.

King Captain Kinearit, sit on down. Tis I, Howie the Bard. Is I Howie the Bard? And plus, I mean, Howie is a natural performer and rock star. He played at the Yellow Door. As a musician and as a performer, and I can say this because I am also the same, Howie probably had difficulty understanding that people in the audience are human beings, that he is not the main character of the universe, that people have feelings besides him, including Mark. You know, when we are on stage, it is power.

even though Howie misunderstood the power differential and thought he was kind of, you know, thumbing his nose at the man to some degree. Still, he was on stage and he was amplified. And that's a power that you have to wield responsibly. When you do crowd work in comedy or whatever, you have to be careful that you are roasting responsibly the people in the audience and that they're enjoying it. And I think that, you know, despite the fact that Howie, I think in good faith, thought that he was just poking at another counselor, the truth is that he made an error of judgment. He didn't appreciate that being on stage gave him a visibility and a kind of power of his own that necessarily made it a little bit more

of a punch down than a punch up. Equally so, I think Howie, and this is a perfectly reasonable error of judgment. I'm not saying that Howie's a bad person. Like Howie, how old were you at this time? 21, 22. Oh, you should have known better. Never mind.

But I would say it's perfectly reasonable even then, because you're just still, you know, your brain's still developing. And, you know, you don't know all of the context of what's going on here. And, you know, roasting and teasing fellow counselors within your own camp environment, your own camp ecosystem of light hazing and torture. You know what you know where to push and where not to push. You know, you know how far to poke until you hit bone. But because this was a guest from a far off land, you didn't necessarily know what their conventions were, right? I don't think you intended to hurt him.

And I'm going to say something, Mark, that you might not like. If I were in your shoes and someone called me Captain Kinear, it, and they, and they, they were roasting me from the stage.

I'd be so happy. I remember the first time I ever saw the video on, you know, MTV raps of hammers. They Put Me in the Mix. And that's the one that goes, hammer, hammer, I am, hammer. And then he goes, they put me in the mix. Like, yeah, dude, you're in the song. Of course they put you in the mix.

It's still thrilling for a hammer to hear his own name. But, you know, that's because Howie and I are emotionally stunted performers who want recognition at all times. Howie didn't know that you weren't going to be flattered by the fact that you got this cool name, Captain Kinearit, which really sounds like a cool Elton John album, actually. I think that you have to acknowledge that Howie acted in good faith given the information that he had and given the level of judgment that he had. One thing that Howie has not said in this, really in this conversation,

he said, I would be happy to say sorry, but I haven't heard him say sorry. You know what I'm saying? So looking back at your ideal rulings for a moment, I'm definitely not going to order your entire friend group to continue to re-haze Mark by calling him Captain Kinnear at once a year in the group chat in the name of humility. Mark is plenty humble. So I am going to rule in Mark's favor in this case, even though I feel that what you did how he was not that bad right that you did it with good intentions and in a way that if mark had been a more extroverted person who liked to to get some attention thrown at him you might have even enjoyed but in this case your your little barb went awry and it and it and it lodged in his heart and it's still working its way out.

You're asking to be taken at face value. Take at face value what Mark has told you, that he was not standing to flout your authority. He was trying to be empathetic towards his kids. And your little song dart was misguided and hit him too hard. And your little song dart was misguided and hit him too hard. I think I do order you to acknowledge that he was in fact leading by example. Do you acknowledge that? I do.

So acknowledged. And I do order you to say, I'm sorry. But in a song. So producer Jennifer Marmer, how long do we have until this podcast hits the air just under a month howie so yeah so howie just write the song in whatever you know mode or tone you want it to be keep it about 30 seconds and send it to us and we'll play it next week this is the sound of a gavel sit down sit, sit on down. Everybody let's sit down. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Mark, how do you feel? I can't wait. I can't wait. Howie, I hope you get some other musicians in on it. Make it big. Howie, how do you feel? I feel good. I feel like I've got a project now

and I can channel my regret into music and hopefully going forward, Mark and I will have smoother seas to sail. Howie, Mark, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. We'll have swift justice in just a second. Our thanks to Redditor Mutant Friend for naming this week's episode, Disbard. Disbard,

because it was a bard who dissed that guy. Yeah. That was a good one. We're asking for those names at MaximumFun.reddit.com, where you can also sneak a peek at upcoming topics of Judge John Hodgman cases. It's a sneaky move. Sneaky. Go sneak on over there. No one ever goes to Reddit to not be sneaky. credit to not be sneaky uh instagram.com slash judge john hodgman is where you can see this picture this picture of uh uh the world's most slash least rockingest man uh ripping out a sweet acoustic guitar solo at summer camp um really looking like you know really looking like

coop from wet hot american summer michael show off his character yeah yeah yeah absolutely really looking like, you know, really looking like Coop from Wet Hot American Summer, Michael Showalter's character. It's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Here, I got a music bed for the rest of the credits. Go ahead. Judge Sean Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. This episode engineered by Max Dewar at Clutch Sound in Madison, Wisconsin. Marie Barty runs our social media. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Episode engineered by Max Dewar at Clutch Sound in Madison, Wisconsin.

Marie Barty runs our social media. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Now Swift Justice. Redditor Medved801 says, My husband drinks my drinks if I don't finish them within 30 minutes. He claims, after 30 minutes, I've given up my right of exclusivity to my drink and it is up for grabs. Yeah, no. I mean, you can't you can't grab you can't steal someone's drink because then they're only having half a drink. And we all know a body needs two drinks.

Right, Jesse? Body needs two drinks. It's true. That's science. It's science. Don't steal people's drinks. So that settles that. But now we need some new disputes.

How about stranger disputes? You know, when Howie and Mark met, they didn't, they didn't, when this all happened, they didn't know each other. This is a grudge that Mark was holding against a stranger until he wandered into Zach's kitchen and saw a chance to redeem himself with the saltine challenge. Maybe you've gotten into a dispute with a stranger, arguments you've had at the airport with a stranger in the subway or online. You remember that person who was going too slow in the passing lane and you couldn't pass those cars because they wouldn't get over? Or remember that person in the grocery store who had 16 items in the 15 item or less line? Remember those teens who guilted your son into switching seats on the airplane such that he had to give up his

nice window seat for a middle seat three rows back oh those teens what did you do about it see like i did or did you get justice probably you didn't get justice it's hard to get justice against strangers in this world but i will give it you. If you have a dispute against a stranger who cannot speak for themselves, send it in to us at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO and Jesse and I will resolve it for you and probably find in your favor. But we're also looking for all disputes, right, Jesse? All disputes and especially disputes in places where we are headed out on tour. So if you were in one of those places, make sure to let us know when you go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Everybody, let's sit down.

Hey, it's a completely unsurprising and totally promised post-credits sequence where I'm going to read that letter from Mary that I alluded to in the cultural reference. So you may recall Camp Robin Hood in Maine, the, let's say, over-resourced camp offering golf and tennis and squash programs, along with its, per its website, 95 years of traditional values. A few months ago, listener Rachel wrote in about being a counselor there, and I read her letter online. And she revealed the instructions that some campers were allowed to ignore all camp rules and do whatever they wanted. The rumor being they were children of the leaders of a drug cartel. Camp Robin Hood.

Anyway, here's a letter from listener Mary, who did not attend Camp Robinin hood but had an interaction with them she went to camp four winds here's what she had to say camp four winds was an all-girls sailing camp and even though it was the early aughts four winds was still very much stuck in the heydays of 1960s prep slash preppy culture so we sang songs dedicated to pink and green polo shirts, including the classic, just like you would to your Izod shirt, be true to four winds now. I had no clue what Izod was. Across the lake was Camp Robin Hood. One night, the girls in my bunk caught up to some mischief. After our counselors fell asleep, we snuck down to the docks. We stole canoes and quietly paddled toward Camp Robin Hood.

It was July, but it was Maine, so it was freezing. I was in the middle of one canoe, a freeloading non-paddler, desperately hoping we wouldn't capsize and drown. At Camp Robin Hood, they had dark green shirts with a jaunty Robin Hood logo embroidered on the chest. They had a practice at the end of the day of leaving them to dry in the docks. We wanted those shirts and we planned to steal them. But as we were docking, a revolving bright light shone out and some kind of alarm started blaring. We grabbed as many shirts as we could and we started panic paddling back and we made it. When we got back, we shoved the Robin Hood shirts deep into the bottom of our camp trunks. I lived with dread every day afterwards that we would be found out and thrown in jail. But we got away with it until days later, one of our group made a mistake

and wore one of the shirts. It was a dead giveaway, especially as the shirts had been reported missing. We got a stern talking to and we were forced to return the shirts to Camp Robin Hood, but I kept one. I wore it a few times once I got home before I felt too guilty and gave it to Goodwill. So she ended up stealing from the rich and giving to the poor. Good job, Mary. She goes on, in a twist of fate and imbalanced budgets. Camp Four Winds closed the year afterwards. I was sad. Camp Four Winds was old and run down, but also genuinely fun. I promptly forgot how to sail, though I think I could still successfully win a game of jacks if the opportunity arose. So Mary sent in a recording of her singing that one bit of the Camp Four Winds song that I quoted when I entered this courtroom. So we'll close out today with that. Just like you would to your eyes, odd shirt, be true to four winds now.