Judge John Hodgman - Forge Majeure

Episode Date: March 15, 2023

Jordan brings the case against his friend Jacob. Jordan and Jacob are both blacksmiths. Jacob has been Jordan’s apprentice for the past few years, and he says it’s time he gets a new title, like ���journeyman.” Jordan says Jacob is still learning and needs more experience first! Who’s right? Who’s wrong?Thanks to reddit user u/Beejtronic for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, Forge Majeure. Jordan brings the case against his friend Jacob. Jordan and Jacob are both blacksmiths. Jacob has been Jordan's apprentice for the past few years and says it's time he gets a new title like Journeyman. Jordan says Jacob is still learning and needs more experience first. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. I've never seen a steel butt forge weld like that in a single hit, and it wasn't hot enough. And if you ever put wood next to something that hot, it would disintegrate. But you don't hold it to such a high accountability

because it's not real. It's a tree dude giving his arm for a handle. I mean, you can't take it too seriously. Bill, if Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Jordan and Jacob, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he hasn't leveled up to the point where he can make elven or orcish armor?

I do. Yes. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. I can also make chitin armor. I think it's some kind of bug metal. Yeah, chitinous armor. Chitinous armor. Right. It's a bug armor.

For bugs. Stall rim armor is another kind I can make. For what's them called from the Dark Crystal, the Garthrim, you might say they had chitinous armor, but they were just bugs. Right. But it's not fair, Jesse. Why would you put orcish armor and elvish armor on the same level? I mean... Well, you have to level up. This is Skyrim

talk, John. Gather some lavender and call me back. But I have a feeling that both the Master and the Apprentice, Blacksmith in this case, are going to back me up, that there's no comparison between elvish and orcish armor. But before we talk to them about that, and maybe only that for the next hour or so, Jordan andacob you may be seated for immediate summary judgment in one of

yours favors can either of you name the piece of culture that i referenced as i entered this fake courtroom uh jacob uh why don't you guess first you're the apprentice what do you got it uh come off a marvel movie i can tell you that. Oh. For sure. I feel like we're talking to someone in maybe in Gainesville, Florida. Yeah, maybe. It'd definitely come off a Marvel movie though. It does reference a Marvel movie. And I'm going to go ahead and put your guess in as it'd come off a Marvel movie though.

All right? Yeah. That's fine. I'm really curious if he knows. Yeah, Jordan, you want to get a little bit more, a little bit more specific? Well, I was hoping it was going to be a Conan reference.

Conan, Conan the Barbarian? That's right, yeah. Because that movie opens with the forging of a sword, correct? Yeah. And how do you feel about that scene's veracity as a master blacksmith?

How do you feel about Conan pouring that molten steel into a mold and then dipping it in snow? Is that how you make a sword? No, not at all. No. What's wrong with it? All of it.

Uh, I mean, that's how you make a bronze sword. Yeah. Bronze sword. Yeah. Yeah. Come on. No. you gotta smite the steel that's you gotta hit it with a hammer right um that's how you do it

if you were going to mold a sword using steel would you just do an open face like that like or would it be yeah no it'd be flat on top wouldn't it it'd be would it be an enclosed mold? Yeah, no, it'd be flat on top, wouldn't it? It'd be flat on top. Yeah, it'd be an enclosed mold, because you're going to be molding it on both sides of the sword. And it would be cast iron, which is brittle. And that's not, you don't want that. If you ever broke a cast iron skillet, the handles sometimes break off.

But it's naturally nonstick. Yeah, that's true. Once it's seasoned, you can cook an egg on it pretty good. That's a good point. I learned a lot about blacksmithing today from today's cultural reference. Uh, so far you haven't made a guess though. No, I'm sorry. No. Um, you want to guess Conan? That's a good guess. Yeah. I think, I think Conan the barbarian said that. Um, that's my guess. The truth is you both win and you both lose. All guesses are wrong, The truth is you both win and you both lose.

All guesses are wrong. But you both made reference to movies that were being commented upon in a YouTube video that I found this morning called Blacksmith rates nine forging scenes from movie and TV. How real is it? I know exactly who that come from. Yeah. Who is it? Alex Steel? No, it isn't actually. But I love your youthful stabs.

Appropriate for a knife maker, taking some youthful stabs. Yeah. Young Jacob. You're not that young. I'm just being silly with you. No, the blacksmith was commenting, and this is for some YouTube channel called Insider. I don't know what it's all about. But this guy was cool.

Neil Kamimura. Oh yeah. Are you familiar with him? Neil, okay. Of T. Kamimura oh yeah familiar with him okay of t kamimura blacksmith from in hilo hawaii and he commented on he commented on the the blacksmithing scenes in conan the blacksmithing scenes in avengers uh endgame which is the one that you were thinking of jacob and then a bunch of other movies, including some Mark Wahlberg movie. And he had this quote that I was going to give you as a second hint.

For all his muscles, and I love Mark Wahlberg, but the rate he's swinging, it would take him three f***ing days to draw that steel out without any breaks. It's blacksmith humor. Okay. I just learned something cool, um, that Conan the Barbarian wrote the monorail episode of the Simpsons. So who comes to seek justice in this fake internet court? Who brings the case? Uh, I do. Okay. That would be you, Jordan. Yes. Jordan does. What is the nature of the justice that you seek well uh my apprentice

jacob is insisting that you really love saying my apprentice jacob well there's a long pause after that one just like my i mean i'm a little bit nervous here i'm trying to pick my words you're doing correctly you're doing a great job. Thank you. But yeah, my apprentice Jacob does not want to be called my apprentice anymore. And I think he's always going to be my apprentice. Whoa. The student shall never become the master? I mean, and to be honest, I'm not a master. I will not call myself a master. It is something that I'm good. I know what I'm doing, but I don't know. A lot of times the folk I see who call themselves master are maybe jumping the gun a little bit. Okay. And most of the actual masters I have met't they don't call themselves that so in a trade such

as blacksmithing an ancient trade you might say going all the way back to hefistus in the in the european canon and ogun in the europa canon and many many other ancient uh legendary blacksmiths you would there were three basically three titles that emerged out of the Western European tradition. If you were an apprentice blacksmith or any other trade similar to this, you would live with a master learning from them for seven years, and you would work for them in return for room and board and education. And then if that master said, okay, you're pretty good. And the guild would admit you as a journeyman, Jacob, that's what you would like to be called, right? Yes, sir. Journeyman Jake. Yes, sir. It's pretty good. It sounds like a t-shirt to me.

Yeah, that sounds good. And a journeyman would have the rights to work as a blacksmith for money, be hired essentially to be, to work as a blacksmith for money, be hired essentially to work as a blacksmith for money, but would not be allowed to take on an apprentice or an employee. And if I get some of this wrong, don't write me blacksmith Twitter. Until the journeyman became a master, and that would be applying to the guild and creating a work of mastery, a masterpiece to be reviewed by the guild and be called a master now in northern florida is there a blacksmithing guild jordan that you belong to there is actually yeah it's called the florida artist blacksmith association okay um and and it is it is not so stringently organized as the guilds of old right um it's really kind of just a lot of

old dudes sitting around you know talking and farting and swinging a hammer occasionally yeah i was gonna say i think there's a little bit more to blacksmithing than talking and farting yeah yeah there is there's quite a bit honestly i don't know that much about physics but if i were a blacksmith i would be worried about farting it's true it's a good point that would be occupational hazard no there's talking and farting and drawing and shrinking and bending and upsetting and swaging and punching and forge welding and butt welding i looked at wikipedia today you got it there's no handing out of mastery certificates or anything or what so there are some um there is a journeyman certificate you

can get through the guild okay um and uh and actually neither of us have gotten one uh oh you two are rogues yeah we are a little bit um and a lot of folk in the club are just because you you tend to specialize in things and some of the skills you have to do to get the the certificate of journeyman there's some skills that you just don't ever use because i'm over here making say knives or axes and some of the skills you need to get the journeyman are skills to make, uh, double gates for, you know,

giant driveways and things. Right. And you're mostly focusing on swords and knives. I, yeah, I like to say I make tools cause I do enjoy making anything. That's a tool. Right.

Um, uh, but anything from a knife to a hammer to, uh, Because I do enjoy making anything that's a tool. Right. Anything from a knife to a hammer to a stick that you would use to gather ants to eat. That's a popular one. Yeah. And you sent in some evidence, though, and the evidence is mostly knives. There's one cool cast iron pan. We'll talk about that in a second. Okay.

What's the name of this club again? It's the Florida Artist Blacksmith Association. The Florida Artist Blacksmith Association. You know, I think there's one skill that you also have to master with that particular club in order to, to get the journeyman's certificate and the mastery certificate. You know, that skill is? Greasing of palms. You know what I'm talking about? I wouldn't know. Yeah, you got to start making some coins. Start making some coins, some money,

putting it into the gloved hands. Jimmy Hoffa III running the guild. That's right. Jesse Thorne, do you know what I learned while watching that video about how movies get blacksmithing wrong all the time? What did you learn? Well, first of all, you would never wear a glove on your hammer hand.

Why, Jordan? Well, you know what, Jordan? Let's see what the kid knows. Journeyman Jake. Yes, sir. Why is it wrong for Mark Wahlberg to be holding a glove, be wearing a glove in his hammer hand in that movie where he's making a samurai sword. There's really no reason to have the glove on. All it does is create a more wear item. You're having to hold the hammer harder to keep it from flying across the room. It's dangerous.

You just end up tiring yourself out. You have to squeeze harder to hold it. And the gloves aren't tight gloves, are they? Those leather gloves, those fireproof gloves, they're not tight, are they? No, not at all. They're hard to hold anything. Why are they loose? So if it catches fire, you can get rid of them quick? Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. He's good, Jordan. You trained him well. You can throw them across the yard and catch something else on fire with them. Yeah. Neil Kamimura said, if that glove gets too hot, it'll cook your hand in an instant. So you got to throw it off your hand right quick. Oh goodness. I know. It'll cook your hand. He said,

this is a fun hobby that you both have. Sometimes. Jordan and Jacob, is this your career or is this something you do for fun? Well, I'll let you start. All right. Uh, yeah, uh, it is, this is my full-time profession. It didn't aim to be that way. It just sort of happened. It was my hobby for, you know, almost 10 years. And then the last five years it's, it's been my full-time gig. And it says here that you, prior to becoming a professional blacksmith, that you held employment at a, at a pizza parlor in Gainesville, right? In Gainesville, yes. Called Satchel's Pizza.

That's the one. Satchel, the owner of Satchel's Pizza, probably being the most famous listener to election profit makers, David Reese and John Kimball. I heard there was something about that. Yeah. There was a big old shindig there not too long ago. That's right, on March the 7th. Okay. Yeah. about that yeah there was a big old shindig there not too long ago march the 7th okay yeah so you gave up you gave up uh throwing pies and ovens and you started putting steel in ovens yeah what

drew you to it um i i needed something to do with my life that was more than just working minimum wage jobs and and playing video games Not that there's anything wrong with, you know, crafting your orc armor and picking lavender, but. You just described a perfect life for many of our listeners. I mean, and there honestly isn't. But for myself, I needed something more. And I mean, I don't, I read a lot of Conan the Barbarian books as a kid. I played Dungeons and Dragons and I felt like I had been pretending to do these things for a while.

And I thought maybe I ought to try to do it for real. And, um, that kind of made me head in that direction. And then I started seeking out education and taking classes. And where does one go to get a blacksmithing education in Florida? So in Florida, I'm probably your best bet. Most of, I'm sorry. I know. I love it. You know, uh, I, I, it's what I do is 90% of what I do is teach classes. And so there's, there's a few other folks who are great at it. Uh, but I am one of the few that kind of zeros in on that. And that's where, you know, the, just the bulk of my work is, is, is in teaching. And I'll go ahead and buzz market it. Crooked path forge.org is the name of your,

is your website describing your work and your, and your classes and everything else. But when you were coming up before there was you, was you, there had to be, there's only two, a master and apprentice. Who was your master? So a gentleman by the name of Yao Owusu Shangofemi. And he's, he actually, you mentioned Ogun. He was part of the Yoruba religion. Yeah. And he introduced me to Ogun.

He had a shrine there in his shop. And yeah, he taught me quite a bit of what I know. I apprenticed with him for about a year, going over there on the weekends and when I could after work. How did you find him? Met him at a grocery store. I was working at a grocery store. All right. He happened to be carrying an enormous sword.

And two gates for a giant driveway. There you go. It was love at first sight. And you studied with him for about a year. Not seven years. No, no. And I've picked up learning, of course, since then. There are different craft schools that are around the country where you can take workshops, you know, week long, weekend long, different things like that.

And the Florida Blacksmith Association also puts on a conference every year, monthly meetings. And there's mentorships, like informal mentorships all over. And I don't know what you call it when two, I guess, collaboration, right? When two people of roughly equal skill teach each other or share knowledge with each other. It's like, I didn't expect to find it. I thought there was going to be a bunch of miserly dwarves, like secreting their knowledge away. And it wasn't that. It was, oh man, you do this too? Come on over. Let's learn from each other. Let's show each other something. You're saying it's a generous community.

It really is. Yeah, it really is. So like you've taught someone for a while and they're like, I think I'm doing well. I think you should call me journeyman. The community goes, oh, no way. You haven't done enough yet. Well.

Get back to the fire. Get back to your bellows, bellows boy. Well, I don't know. I well i i don't i don't know i mean when you've when i don't have children so i may not understand it all the way right but i know i know some of you have children yeah and when they grow up to be adults maybe they graduate high school do you do you call them these are my adults or do you still refer to them as i call them my little bitty babies yeah and i refuse to let them leave the house i tie them to the nest so they might not possibly fly oh i have one question for you jordan crooked path forge what is the meaning of crooked path to you so part of it is uh it was a crooked path to get

to the thing that i was really meant to do so to speak being a blacksmith uh i worked at uh satchel's pizza um total coincidence but i also worked at the luby bat conservancy for a little while which you guys referenced. I was there for about five years as a zookeeper. So you were handling those big old fox bats? Yeah, yeah. I laughed out loud when you mentioned it. I was like, no way.

You remember them, Jesse, from our bat house episode a couple of weeks back. Yeah, I mean, it was part of our natural progression towards becoming an all bat podcast. On your website, you have, and I'm going to go ahead and plug something else for you here, Jordan. Okay. You have a very, very provocative link called the riddle of steel. I'll let that go unanswered. It seems to link to your events page.

I'll let that go unanswered. It seems to link to your events page. And I believe that by the time this episode comes out, there will still be a chance for people to attend the last blade standing to event, a live competition and blade testing event, Saturday, March 26th. You'll be there,

Jordan. So that one, that was, that's how often I update my website. That's from last year? That was last year. Yeah. All right. Sorry.

No, that's fine. You can still watch it on YouTube though. Yeah. Yeah. We were just at the third one, which was this weekend. Oh, okay. Here's my question, Jacob, maybe you can answer. Yes, sir.

What is blade testing? Here's my question, Jacob, maybe you can answer. Yes, sir. What is blade testing? And why should anyone get anywhere near a blade testing at an event where there is also free beer? Why not? I mean, that sounds like a great time. Here, let's have a couple of drinks and just beat the crap out of this until something happens. I mean, it sounds great.

A lot of things could happen though. Yeah, that's the fun. Remember how we were just talking about the story of how your hand could cook in a glove? Exactly. Jordan, what's the difference between what you do or what you and Jacob

do and what the guys in the metal shop across the street from me do when they make, you know, they make a lot of those food holders with sneeze guards for grocery stores and like custom stainless steel kitchen things and fences. They make fences sometimes. They're fabricating. So they're taking sheets of metal and welding them together, which is sort of a fancy hot glue, essentially. And what I'm doing is taking, you know, sort of raw chunks and pieces of steel and you heat it up in a fire and you hit it with a hammer. you heat it up in a fire and you hit it with a hammer,

the smith and blacksmith, that's implying that you're forging the metal or hitting the metal with a hammer to change its shape. So you do have coppersmiths and silversmiths and things like that as well. And they would be hitting things with a hammer. And iron and steel was known as black metal, whereas gold and silver were known as white metal. Yep.

Right. So that's where the term blacksmith comes from. I told you I read the Wikipedia page. Man. Did a little research. I did. You want to be an apprentice? Well, you're handing it out pretty easily.

Sure. Hey, it's easy to start. Hey, you heard all the research I did reading Wikipedia and watching one video. Can I become a journeyman? Wow. I just got a text message. Travis McElroy just moved to Florida. Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor. We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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How did you come to this craft and how did you and Jordan meet? Well, I spent a lot of time in the woods growing up and always buying the Walmart knives and the flea market knives and stuff. And they just always broke. Never done anything I wanted to do. Hold on. What did you want them to do? I was going to say maybe we should let that pass. Well, they would never hold the edge that I wanted it to hold.

I was very destructive as a kid, you know, always trying to chop down limbs and see how hard I can throw it. Tree limbs. Sure. If that's what you want to go with. Um, see how far I could stab it into a tree. Um, you know, just normal kid stuff. And then, um, could never have one that met my needs, never done what I wanted. So had a buddy who said he knew how to do it. Uh, went to his house. We started blacksmithing a knife there out of rebar. Turns out he didn't know what he was doing. So we got to playing around on YouTube and, uh, just kind of progressed from there. Turns out it was one of the few things I'd ever been good at in my life. I was never really good at anything. Sucked in school. Welding was the only thing I was good at.

So this kind of just fell into something that I understood. And then I started playing around with Cable Damascus, way too far advanced for what I was doing, but it was fun. What is that? So you take steel cable, like out of an elevator or something like that. And you pretty much make a knife out of it. Or, you know, you get a really hot forge welding temperature and then you forge weld everything together and shape it into the form of a knife. Turns out it's way harder than it looks. Um, turns out it's way harder than it looks. And, uh, I had made one that somehow somewhat stuck together, had a bunch of, uh, mess ups down the blade, cold shuts and stuff is what we call it where it just don't fuse, but I was so proud of it, you know? So I went to the Hogtown Medieval

Fair back in 2018 and that's where I met Jordan there. He was demonstrating and he treated it like the macaroni art your kid gives you you know like oh wow that looks so good yeah i'm gonna put it right here on the fridge you know but um he gave me his number and i just kept bugging him till he finally let me over at the house to just hold something for like five minutes while he hit it and then it was like all right get out of here uh jacob you sent in some evidence or you both sent in some evidence of the work that you've done and all these photos of these really cool knives will be available on on the judge john hodgman show page at maximumfund.org as well as our instagram account at judge john hodgman on instagram jacob let's turn to your knives first here i see some two beautiful knives tell me

about them um well the first one there is, you're looking at the big one, right? There's one that's sort of like on a tree, and then there's one that's propped up against what looks like a charred black cow skull. Yes. Okay. Am I getting that right? Yeah, that's a cow skull. Okay. So the one that's propped up against a tree is what's called a gomai. It is five layers of steel. You have mild steel, 15 and 20, then 80 CRV2, and some desert ironwood handles with copper pins. Looks beautiful. I was going to say all that, except I thought maybe it was 75 CRT2. A common mistake.

Yeah, so close. So close. That one there was a really proud moment in my career that really made me feel like I accomplished something. Because that's one of the first ones I had come out that clean. I mean, everything was spot on on it. And do you own this knife currently or is it in the home or the back of someone else at this time? Well, he done with it when he bought it is on him. Okay. But I did sell it, yes.

And then, Jordan, you have some knives that you sent some photos of that you've made here. Yeah. And these are not on any kind of skull. They're just arrayed on a tree trunk with some artfully placed autumn leaves. Tell me about these knives. So that's a, uh, a kitchen set that I did. Um, and it's, I just, I just loved how they came out, you know, um, getting them to kind of match in a way that you can look at it and go, Oh, that's a set. They, you know, they know they belong together looks like a chef's knife and uh

a smaller chef's knife and a paring knife and like a big old cleaver yeah um and and at least with with what i've been learning and how i'm i'm the direction i'm going with my work uh there's a there's a lot of people who want chef's knives in in the gainesville area there's a pretty good foodie scene around here not just pizzas and cutting a vegetable especially a hard vegetable like a a carrot or a potato if the blade is too thick yeah then it will split the potato before it cuts all the way through right and getting that blade thin while still keeping it straight is one of the sort of like little projects I'm working on and the challenges I've given myself is to really zero in on those attributes that will really let that blade function well. And I noticed near the handle there is a kind, there's some runes, kind of maker's mark.

That's exactly it. What do those runes signify? Are those your initials or are they something in some ancient language that I do not know? I mean, it's an Anglo-Saxon runes and it is as close as I could get without being a scholar to saying crooked path, you know, in Viking for lack lot of our turn okay um it was also easy when i was first starting to have a maker's mark that was just straight lines right i didn't have to make a fancy stamp so the runes really worked out for that honestly jordan you don't seem like a fancy stamp kind of guy i'm not straightforward straight runes up and down runes kind of guy i mean when we're talking about runes here here both of you at the hog town medieval fair i pronounce it that way because it's

h-o-g-g-e-t-o-w-n-e medieval fair and i guess this this is where you first met that's you and jacob together yes sir and jacob you went there because when you want to find a knife maker you know there's no more wretched hive of scum and villainy than the hogtown medieval fair that's that's where you go 100 jacob went there to eat one of those giant turkey legs and drink mead and he happened to find a knife guy there well if you want the truth i was actually planning on going to the trampoline park with a kid. Okay. But the wife really wanted to go.

All right, those are separate things then. The Hogtown Medieval Fair doesn't have a trampoline, a ye olde trampolini park? Well, you know. Does the Hogtown Medieval Fair attract a lot of blacksmiths and sort of artisans of this kind? It's picking up actually, uh, the first, first couple of years that no, there was just really us. Um, I just happened to go there cause the wife wanted to go there and I met him. And then a whole new, a whole new career was started. Is this something you want to do as your career? That, that is the goal. That is the eventual dream at the end of the tunnel is to leave where I'm working now and just be a bladesmith for my career.

I mean, you know, it's something I really enjoy and is good at. Jacob, you already have a trade and it's a pretty good job. What do you do now and why make tree stabbing swords instead? And why make tree stabbing swords instead? Well, right now I'm a plumber with the Department of Corrections out of Lake Butler, Florida, Reception and Medical Center. So right now I'm just fixing toilets and sinks and drains. Yeah, I got to agree with Jesse there. I can't see why making beautiful knives would be more attractive than fixing sinks and toilets for the prison industry.

Now that I say it that way, I actually support your career change. I think this sounds like a good idea. I think you made some beautiful knives here. I mean, I don't know whether these light up when a goblin is around or not, but they look really cool. Jordan, what's wrong with these knives? Why can't he be a journeyman? Um, look, I'm not here to say that he's not a talented and skilled maker. He a hundred percent is. Um, and you know, I'll be proud the day that he surpasses me. I'll be tickled because I'm sure it'll happen, but he's still not going to not be my apprentice. Uh, you know, it, it, these knives look very sharp to me. Yes.

To the point that my feeling is that when he surpasses you, you won't even feel it. That might be the case right now where does he need to improve so he does need to improve with his uh his grinds um his ollies his 360s uh when you're when you're shaping the metal you can either hit it with a hammer and it moves around like Play-Doh, you know, it's, it gets soft and you can move it. But once that process is done and the blade has been heat treated, you can no longer hit it with a hammer. It will, it will break. You can't heat it up anymore. And so then you have to rely on a stock removal, right? So a belt sander, a grinder, something like that. And that's where things can get a little more finicky

because a slip, an unsteady hand, once the material's removed, there's no putting it back. And he's trying to pursue a journeyman certification through a national guild called the American Bladesmith Society. So it's a little tricky to call him an apprentice that's a, or a journeyman that's a knife maker because people may get confused with this official certification organization. And they have very stringent guidelines and he's working towards that. I'm not, by the way. Um,

and he's working towards that. I'm not, by the way. I'm happy where my grind lines are at. And, you know, I like swinging a hammer. I do not enjoy grinding. You don't need a piece of paper from the ABS to find joy in your life is what you're saying. That is basically it. You don't play their game.

No. How many more years, Jacob, do you have? You're pursuing this journeyman certificate from the ABS. I have one year left before I can take the test to become a journeyman. And when you take it, you intend to pass it, correct? That's the goal. So it sounds to me like Jordan can't even technically provide you with a journeyman title. Why is it important to you that he stopped calling you his apprentice? Well, I end up at his

shop all the time, helping him during his classes and stuff that he does on the weekends. And we used to have an open forge program where people would come in and just pretty much pay for the shop. And then I would supervise the shop for him. And that's really where the problem lies is, uh, you know, depending on the situation, I don't really mind it, but when I'm at the shop and I'm working at the shop, his shop, um, and there's people coming in asking questions and, you know, he, he's given me the supervisor title where, uh, position where I'm watching the shop for him while he's doing whatever he wants to do.

When somebody comes up and says, hey, man, what about this? Oh, go talk to the apprentice. You kind of get a little wishy-washy on it. You don't love that. Right. Let's say you go to the tattoo shop, right? And you go to get a tattoo. And the guy's like, oh, yeah, go talk to the apprentice. He knows everything. It kind of stirs you off. He's only been there a year and you're calling an apprentice. But, you know, if he says, oh, yeah, go talk to the shop guy. What's the word I'm looking for there? Shop guy is good. Yeah.

Yeah. Foreman. Foreman. Right. It says that he knows more. He has, he at least has experience and knows what's going on. He's kind of running the shop while the boss is away. How long have you been the shop while the boss is away.

How long have you been the supervisor during the open forge sessions and other things like that, would you say? About a year and a half. Yeah. About a year and a half. I think we're running it for about a year and a half. And this is, you're keeping an eye on people. You're not just handing out free beer next to the fire and the knives. No. There's no beer in my shop until the fire is put out.

Okay. Fair enough. There's a lot afterwards. Yeah, I know. I understand. You don't even need to tell me what happens after hours at the Hogtown Medieval Fair. On a typical day, Jordan's not in the shop at all for the open forge. I show up with the keys.

I open the door. I set up the forge. I set up the shop. People show up. I help them with the projects. They ask me questions. I answer the questions. I guide them to what they're trying to do for the day.

And then I make sure nobody injures themselves. Make sure I don't get injured. Make sure the shop don't burn down. You feel apprentice is not an appropriate title for the level of skill and responsibility that you have. Yes. Would you be happy with assistant to the regional manager? That's great. That's workable.

Speaking of beer in the shop after the fire goes out, Jordan, did you accidentally promote Jacob during a drunken party and then try to walk it back? I don't know why I asked that question. I just had an intuition to ask it. That's strange. That may have happened. That may have not. By the way, your support for Judge John Hodgman in the Maximum Fun Drive supports Judge Hodgman's intuition, Valerie.

Thank you, Valerie, for teeing up that important question. Now that you've waited for the translation, will you answer the question, sir? Did you or did you not at a drunken party promote Jacob and then try to walk it back? Yes or no, sir? I very probably did. Very probably did. Jacob, do you know what I'm talking about? I 100% do.

Can you tell me the story? Well, we were at a party. We were actually at a meeting itself. It was a formal meeting for the club at first. And then after hours, you know, we all sat around, started having beers, having a good time. And this was not a FABBA meeting. No, no. This was a BBB meeting.

They might want to know about that. That's the Better Business Bureau. Yeah, yeah. So we started a club. Jordan, Chris, and some friends of ours started a club called the Bearded Brotherhood of Blacksmiths. Yeah, I know, right? You don't have to have a beard or be a brother. We have sisters in the club as well. The main goal for that club, though, is really to get together and help people, right? as well. The main goal for that club though, is to really to get together and help people, right? We look out for each other. My shop is your shop. Shop's always open. You have questions,

come to me. My knowledge is your knowledge. And we strive to push each other, learn new skills, you know, push yourself. Don't just get in that little comfy spot and stay there, Jordan. Oh, wow. Oh, but knives are out. It seems to me. At this meeting we was having for the BBB, we, you know, we, we did our formal stuff. We sat down to have a project. We completed the project, you know, just, I think we were making sign brackets or something like that. But at the end, you know, we were sitting around a fire, having a good time. brackets or something like that. But, uh, at the end, you know, we were sitting around a fire, having a good time. Everybody started drinking and, um, I don't know where Jordan just got up and wanted to make a speech about how good I'd been doing and my progress and everything. And then he kind of promoted me, you know, saying, you know, I'm sorry for calling you

the apprentice all the time. I'm gonna promote you to shop foreman, you know? And I was like, oh, is that a promotion like journeyman? He, yes, is pretty much what he'd done. And then later. Two days later, you know, at the shop when I made a joke. When he woke up in the middle of Gainesville. Yeah. I don't know enough about Gainesville to make a joke about Gainesville topography. When he woke up in the dining room at Satchel's Pizza.

When he woke up in the dining room at Satchel's Pizza. Thanks, Valerie. In a pile of sign brackets. He's like, whoa, did I accidentally promote Jacob last night? Oh, I've got to take that back. Is that what happened? Kind of. Two days later, we were at somewhere, and I made a little pun about it, you know, like, hey, I appreciate that promotion, you know, looking out for me and everything. And it was like, well, I may have had a little bit too much to drink.

I don't remember that part of it. Wow, Jordan. Wow. In the words of Judge John Hodgman, wow. Wow. Jordan, what does the term apprentice mean to you? And why should Jacob not feel so bad about being one? So how do I mean, it's, it's hard to, it's hard to articulate it. And it's a, it's a, I take it very seriously, partially because I was an apprentice to somebody and it's a point of pride that I apprenticed under Yao.

And, you know, it's, it's in my, um, you know, it's, it's in a bio. If I write up a bio, it's on the website. It's something that, uh, especially because blacksmiths have been so generous in sharing their knowledge with me, I want to be really open with who I learned from. And I want that sort of chain of knowledge to remain unbroken as well, because it really is. Yao himself was apprenticed to a man named Philip Simmons. And Philip Simmons' grandfather, who was also a blacksmith, was born a slave. And the tradition went far back after that.

And so there's knowledge there that came from a piece of history in the past. And I don't want to be the one to let that chain break. Yeah, blacksmiths make chains. They don't break to be the one to let that chain break yeah blacksmiths make chains they don't break them that's right do you still call yourself an apprentice to y'all that's that's the sticking point right because i wouldn't sticking point is another thing that blacksmiths make this is very good everything's literally on point all right um but if we went to a party and he said you know this was my apprentice this is my you know this if he said this is my apprentice how would you feel i wouldn't correct him but i'm not actively working with him or under him anymore so it

would i suppose technically be wrong. But if he said this guy apprenticed under me, that would be fine. I would be proud. In fact, do you understand why Jacob feels that it might be, it feels a little demeaning when you say, go talk to apprentice about that. I try not to use that tone. Um, you seem like a very nice person. But yeah, I totally understand. I totally understand. Yeah.

And yeah. Well, you know, I had to go through it. Not that that's a great excuse, but. Let me just get the timeline perfectly straight. How long would you say you apprenticed with your teacher, Yao? So I worked with him for. No, no, no. Say it. you apprenticed with your teacher, Yao? So I worked with him for... No, no, no. Say it. I apprenticed with him.

I apprenticed with him for a year. One year. And that was weekends and sometimes when you could go after work? Correct. Yeah. It wasn't that much. And we're talking about a standard Florida year, right? Yeah.

Okay. It wasn't that much. And we're talking about a standard Florida year, right? Yeah. Okay. He moved out of state, so it would have been longer. And did you apprentice with anyone else after him? No. And how long has Jacob been apprenticing with you?

Remind me. Well, it would have been shortly after the fair of 2018. Right. And based on standard Florida years, 1920, 21, 22, we're in the fifth year. Is that right? Yeah. Wow. Time passes even in Florida.

Hmm. Interesting. Jacob, how do you feel? Does it feel like Jordan's trying to keep you down? In some cases, yes. In some cases, yeah. He's trying to downgrade me a little bit in the shop. It's what it feels like. A little. Do you think that he actually is? Do you think he actually is or it just feels that way? Downgrade wasn't the right word. I'm sorry there. Downgrade definitely wasn't the right word. If you could find some word that I could make a blacksmithing joke around, I'd

really appreciate it. I'm trying to upset him? Yeah. It's upsetting, right? Because upsetting is a blacksmith term, right? I think we all knew that. You know what he's doing? He's punching down. Another blacksmith term? Probably. It definitely

stokes the fire every time he says that. Cutting remark, to be frank. Jacob just punched it up. Sorry. You're trying to express your feelings and Jesse and I are just making jokes. I apologize. Go ahead. I promise we'll be quiet.

He does have a couple other people that do apprentice under him a little bit. Not as full time as I am. They just show up kind of every once in a while. Typically when I'm just not available, they'll come over and help him and stuff. And, you know, when we're all in the shop together and he just says, go talk to the apprentice and he points at me, it's kind of putting me in the same category as the other ones. And that's where I have the problem is I don't want to sound cocky when I say I'm better than them, but I have a little bit more knowledge than them and everything, and when it's around them people, I would like to be not put on that level. Okay. Jacob, are you ready to strike out on your own?

I feel like it. It's ready to leave the nest. So what's holding you back? Nothing really, I guess. I just feel guilty for him. Abandoning Jordan? What? Yeah, you know.

He needs you. Yeah, who's going to help him out? You know, who's going to be gonna help him out you know who's gonna be there when who's gonna be there when he's overbooked or or you know somebody's gotta help him keep track i do need a lot of help jordan how would you feel if jacob was like uh enough of this already i'm gonna go off and and hang my own anvil shingle or something blacksmithy i mean he's he's skill-wise definitely ready for it and and i would not he's good at what he does um do you want him out of the shop you like what's the what's the culmination of this uh master and apprentice relationship that he goes and starts his own shop

i i mean theoretically that would be the traditional way to do it um but as as a journeyman in the old sense, you would have journeyed somewhere away from the master. So you're not taking his work. Um, in the modern world, I don't think that matters as much. A lot of this is on the internet and physical meat space is not as big of an issue. I would miss him in my shop just cause we're friends. And, uh, you know, I think of him as a brother um and I think we would still work together I would hope we'd still work together collaborate on things um I would have to find somebody new to take his place and that would be very hard to do

and I there was a time where I thought I could maybe have him as a full-time and like official employee, you know, and it just, when I looked into that on the nuts and bolts side of things, that's a lot more expensive than just paying him an hourly wage that I didn't realize there's going into that sort of thing. And right now, what are you providing us aside from instruction right now what are you providing us aside from instruction materials hours in the shop so yeah he has access to some equipment that he doesn't have at home uh particularly a power hammer which is a a mechanical hammer that hits much harder than a person that's a plus 19 elvish hammer jesse that he can it was forged by the knoll door in the ancient age okay um so that yeah there's some equipment uh not materials or anything like that people can

source those pretty easy there's there's there's knowledge experience um but you're not paying him currently to supervise these open forge sessions uh no and when you considered hiring him officially yeah you realize that it might not make sense in your business that you couldn't afford to i couldn't afford to pay him i couldn't afford to okay yeah you know eventually he's going to be a journeyman he's going to apply to the what is it the american button down bureaucratic blade association he nailed it and get there another another blacksmith reference there nailed it thank you these guys have a real rod up their rear wow whoa then you're gonna have

to call him a journeyman i you know he would still be my apprentice i mean oh wow jordan i mean i don't mean it like that i mean you just mean that you're not an apprentice anymore, but he will be forever? That's how it feels. All right. Maybe I am the jerk. No, no one's calling you a jerk. Just trying to get to the bottom of what's going on here so that I can make it a proper ruling. We're trying to learn about your feelings.

Where our feelings should be, only jokes reside. We're trying to learn about your feelings. Where our feelings should be, only jokes reside. We're trying to learn what it's like to be a real human being with an interesting hobby and a friendship where you openly express affection for one another. It's really wonderful for us to see. That's not true. Jesse and I express affection for one another all the time. And Valerie, too.

Valerie, I have affection for you. I'm expressing it it let the record reflect that valerie made a symbol of a heart with her fingers i appreciate what you do valerie and the point is uh what would you have me rule then jordan is he going to be an apprentice forever you're gonna keep him down in the in the mines no no um and and when he is officially a journeyman i'm happy to refer to him as a journeyman and that won't be a problem uh until then even if he's still supervising your open forge days or whatever well i'm i'm open to the judge's ruling on what would be a proper title how's that like like and and i'm i'm happy to hear that because i think jacob's right but i don't have a better answer for the title for him

because to my mind we can't quite go with journeyman until he's gone through this process with the abs but at the same time he's's right. He's not really an apprentice. He's, he's, he is better than that. He is striking out on his own. He's getting his own gigs. He's, you know, this past medieval fair, we went halfsies on our table and he was, uh, you know, essentially an equal member of the event. And he had his own knives on his side of the table. And I had mine on mine and, um, he did did very well i think you sold all of your knives i sold it i even sold the one i was wearing yeah so uh kind of why we're here because i don't know the right word and we've come to somebody wiser and you know judgier yeah well that's very fine i know i fine. I know how people get ahead in blacksmithing.

It's by palm greasing and judge flattering. I know what you're trying to do. Really stuck in the fire there. You already did that one, Jacob. Did I? Yeah. Jacob, congratulations on selling all your knives at the Medieval Fair. Thank you. Do you feel that you could have made those knives without access to the materials and workshop

that your current master provides you? Yes, I feel like I could. You could build your own shop and strike out on your own? Well, I already do have my own shop at the house. He's just got some equipment that I can't purchase at the moment. He's got the power hammer and a couple other fancier little jigs that really helps it get done. But I have the primitive needs to get it done at the house. And do you have a title in mind? I mean, you will be a journeyman. You're going to apply for this, the ABS. You're going to get it. Then Jordan's going to have no choice. Right. I mean, but what, what in the meantime, just to shop and shop foreman would make me

happy just at the shop where we're working, you know, and people are asking for this or that, you know, Hey, can you, uh, um, how much would this cost or how much would that cost? Or, you know, what do you think about making this? Just go talk to the shop foreman would sound great to me. You know, when, when there's others in the shop, you know, calling me the apprentice kind of knocks me down when that's really not what I am. I'm there. I feel like the shop foreman. And obviously you're not asking for a raise because he doesn't pay you anyway. Yeah, I don't get paid at all. Every once in a while I get a slice of pizza, but that's about it. You know, he's getting that for free from satchels anyway.

Exactly. That's the worst. He made all their sign brackets. It's not even hot. It's cold pizza. Yeah, from last month's pizza. All right. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go bellows the fire of my thinking machine called my brain, and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jordan, how are you feeling about your chances here? Oh, pretty terrible. Yeah. But I'm happy for that. We're going to get an answer we needed a solution to.

And this is a good way to do it. Yeah, you're definitely the jerk. Everyone can tell. Jacob, how are you feeling about your chances? Pretty good. Yeah, I think I was greased the palm pretty good. I'm feeling pretty good about it. Jordan, Jacob, we'll find out what the judge has to say when we come back in just a moment. Jordan, Jacob, we'll find out what the judge has to say when we come back in just a moment. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year.

for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice

but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.

And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go call s-t-o-p p-p-a-d-i it'll never fit no it will let me try if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p

p-p-d-c-o-o ah we are so close stop podcasting yourself a podcast from from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Judge Hodgman, we're taking a break from the case and you have a television program coming up soon. Yes, Jesse, that's true. And I have a message not for our listeners so much as for their smart speakers. So this is for the smart speakers out there. their smart speakers. So this is for the smart speakers out there.

Alexa, remind me to watch Up Here on Hulu on March 24th, 2023. Hey Siri, remind me to watch the new romantic musical comedy by Bobby Lopez and Kristen Anderson Lopez directed by Thomas Kael and written by Steven Levinson and starring Mae Whitman and Carlos Valdez plus John Hodgman on Hulu,

March 24th, 2023. How you doing Google? I think that's how you get a Google thing to respond. How you doing Google up here? Premieres on March 24th. It's a really, really funny,

really, really toe tapping and, and, really toe-tapping and heartwarming comedy about love in New York City in 1999 starring Mae Whitman and Carlos Valdez. Also, I'm in it, but you should still watch it anyway. Remind me to watch it on March 24th

on Hulu. That's it. Are there any other smart speakers out there so far? Honestly, I couldn't tell you. Hey, Sonos. Sonos. How you doing, Sonos?

All right, Samsung. Let's do this. What's up, LG? Hey, General Electric. Want to go? Yo, Roku. Remind me to watch up here on Hulu March 24th. Now, Jesse Thorne. only actively solicit your memberships for this one less than two week period a year, the MaxFunDrive. We're going to have a couple of episodes of Judge John Hodgman that will be very special. And we hope that you will take the opportunity to join Maximum Fun if you love

this show, because that is really what keeps this show floating. And we mean that very, very sincerely. So watch out for the MaxFunDrive. There's going to be all kinds of fun stuff and there's going to be a really exciting bit of news about Maximum Fun itself that I think you're going to be really excited about. you should please please participate if you can by joining or upgrading your membership i just want to reiterate what jesse said for the new listeners because i know that we've had a lot of new listeners join us and we're very grateful for you around the world but maximum fun as a network is listener supported this has not been an easy time for podcasts we're very lucky that our network has been listener supported from the get-go. It's allowed us to weather some hard times in the podcasting landscape. It's what keeps everything going. We're counting on your support. You've been very generous in the past. And if

you've just started listening, just want to reiterate this to you. You're the ones who keep us going. And MaxFunDrive is the time to do it. We'll see you March 20th for the Max Fund Drive and let's get back to the case. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. First of all, I just want to establish that the final authority in this courtroom is me and not the American Blade Society.

They're a bunch of pencil necks and bean counters, and I don't care what they have to say. It is obvious to me that these two blacksmiths are masters at their craft of different level and different experience points, but in a normal everyday English viewpoint, we're both masters of their craft these knives go check them out on the website of the instagram these knives are are incredible looking i bet they cut real good and they're beautiful works of art and they have if i dare say forged a beautiful friendship in this shop that and now they have high-fived. I wish I had screenshot that. Please do it again. Please do it again and hold it.

Thank you. So yes, in the plain English sense, you are both highly skilled, I dare say masters at this craft, and you have forged an incredible friendship. Albeit one that is, you know, reaching a new stage. Jordan, you have helped shape Jacob's career with your wisdom and

your power hammers and your tools and the stuff that you learned from the person you apprenticed with and from the many apprentices before him. And now it has reached a white, hot, intense moment where I'm going really hard trying to lean into a blacksmith metaphor here but the point is with blacksmithing you're not trying to break things apart you're trying to make things stronger trying to make the steel stronger and indeed though you you know you you're not doing arc welding where you're using a torch to weld two pieces together you can do uh what we referred to at the beginning of this butt welding where you first of all it's got button in the phrase so i like that second of all you take two pieces of strong iron and you you weld them

together manually because they're they're hot at both ends i don't want to see this thing break up over such a simple thing as the term. And you have to consider the term. In craftspersonship, these terms are terms that have meaning and are not diminishing. Saying that you are an apprentice to someone who is very skilled at something or have apprenticed is a point of honor. But in the broader sense, Jordan, you must acknowledge that most people understand apprentice as the lower in the pecking order member of a sith duo who's going to get chopped in half by obi-wan kenobi darth maul was so much better than darth sidious he's the best darth maul was the best

we got chopped in half people tend to think that apprentice means a young child who's sleeping in a hayloft and working for free as a servant. It's not that it's a completely diminishing term, but it is one that Jacob has clearly outgrown in his skill, which you acknowledge. And the other element of it is that you got drunk and said that he wasn't an apprentice anymore. You got drunk and promoted him. A wise person once said to me that one of the things about grinding a blade is that once you take off the material, you can't put it back on.

And let's face it, you got drunk, you gave him that promotion to, I guess, shop foreman, you ground that bit of the blade off, and now it's nice and sharp and Jacob is ready to move forward in this new position. And if you don't let him, he's going to get sharp with you, cut your bond, go off, leave you without a pal, nevermind an apprentice. That's right. Jacob was just waving goodbye to Jordan. It could happen right now. I think that it's pretty clear that you both acknowledge that Jacob has outgrown the title of apprentice.

It has come to the point where it does not accurately reflect his skill level. He's certainly been an apprentice for a lot longer than you ever were officially, Jordan. And it's come to the point where it's harming your relationship. So what, why not? I mean, you're not paying him, give him a better title. That's what every, that's what every company does when they don't have money to pay somebody. It's the easiest thing in the world to do. And I think that, you know, as much as I'd like, and we'll order that once Jacob becomes a journeyman in a year, according to the ABS, that you have to refer to him as Journeyman Jake instead of Bella's Boy. When this happens, and it is inevitable that you will become a journeyman,

you will have a title that Jordan never sought, an official journeyman status from the ABS. Is that right, Jordan? Yes, yeah. How are you going to feel once he gets this piece of paper? Oh, super proud. Yeah. Very proud. I mean, somebody else's gain is not my loss. I'm happy for that. In the meantime, I think shop foreman sounds about right. Jacob, you're obviously comfortable with that, right? Yeah. I'm very happy with that. You can say shop foreman, but

when someone comes to you and it's a question that Jacob is better suited to answer for whatever reason, you can always just say, why don't you just go ask my good friend Jacob over there? He's a very skilled blacksmith. You can say that. I will. Okay. I'm sorry. Kind of a pause there. Are you all right?

Yeah. I just was not wanting to talk over anybody for that one. Yeah. You can also refer to him as the power hammer if you want. That would be great. It's got a nice ring to it. It does. A ring.

That's another blacksmith. I got you. Thank you very much. So this is the sound of a gavel. Ting, ting, ting. Make sure that that's the sound effect. Even with me laughing through it. Congratulations, Chop Foreman Jacob.

And thank you very much, Master Jordan, for sharing your skills with us, both of you today. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jacob, you seem happy about this verdict. Yeah, I'm very pleased with it. I think it suits me. Yeah, I'm happy with it.

It's suited for me. You could get like a t-shirt made. Yeah, I plan on getting a t-shirt, hat. Anything you could put flocked lettering on. Jordan, how do you feel? I feel good about it. I think it's the right decision. It's the right word.

And, you know, I'm proud of him. I just needed the push to have someone tell me, hey, stop being weird about this. And God, I'll call him what he deserves. Yeah. Well, Jacob, Jordan, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. We'll have swift justice in just a moment.

Our thanks to Reddit user Beagetronic for naming this week's episode Forge Majeure. The Maximum Fun Reddit is at MaximumFun.reddit.com. A lot of fun to be had there. That's where we're asking for case names these days. Evidence and photos from the show are both on our Instagram account, which is at Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman, and at the MaximumFun.org episode page for this episode. Follow us on Instagram. You can get all kinds of cool stuff, including photos from episodes. Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. Our producer is Valerie Moffitt. This episode recorded by Lily Ruckstuhl at Pulp Arts in Gainesville, Florida. Now Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment. Wesley writes,

where we answer small disputes with quick judgment. Wesley writes, when there's a lane closure due to construction on the road, at some point, two lanes merge into one. Zipper merge. I see that... Is that enough for you? Yeah. Okay, keep going.

I see that most people stay in the lane that's going to remain open, myself included. You're right, zipper merge. I see... Keep going. I see others drive to the front of the closed lane, merge, then get to wherever they're going a few minutes faster than I do. Yeah, that's the zipper merge. That's the correct thing to do.

Is there more? I think it would be more efficient if everyone did this. Please rule that I can drive to the front of zipper lanes despite the hateful stares and honks of the patiently waiting motorists. I'm so glad you brought this up, Wesley. And thank you, Valerie Moffat, for dropping this in to Swift Justice, because it just came over the transom like the other day. And my feeling was, are we still talking about this? Zipper merge, zipper merge, zipper merge. It is the way you're supposed to do it. People are lining up in the right-hand lane, if the left-hand lane is closing, and waiting their turn, and then getting huffy while people drive along the left-hand

lane and zipper merge in. Don't be huffy. They're wrong. Use all lanes available and merge at the last second. Take turns. It's just been shown over and over and over again. It's much more efficient. So we've talked about it on the podcast before. I'll bring it on the podcast again. Be safe. Be considerate. Zipper merge. Spread this gospel through your behavior. Zipper merge. Meanwhile, Jesse, you know that the max fun drive is coming up right yeah and towards the end of march i'd be surprised if you didn't because after all the max fun drive is the one time each year when we come to you asking you to join or upgrade your membership as listener supporters of this very network it's what keeps

our lights on and our microphones going. It's not just a squirrel running on a treadmill. We use electricity now. Yeah, in addition to the squirrel on the treadmill. Well, that's just for fun. That's just Nutsy having fun. And as always, we're going to have bonus content for you and lots of fun surprises if we reach certain benchmarks of new and upgrading members.

And one of those benchmarks, of course, is the annual cheese podcast that your friend and mine, Jordan Morris and I host every year after Max Fun Drive called, what's it called, Jesse? Shooting the Breeze, B-R-I-E-S. Shooting the Breeze, B-R-I-E-S. Jesse Thorne came to me a few years ago and said you want to do a cheese podcast a one-off cheese podcast with jordan called shooting the breeze b-r-i-e-s i said no i don't want to do a one-off i want to do it once a year after max fun drive to mark the changing of the seasons because jordan was a cheese monger and I was a cheese monger. I did

my monging in London. He did his in, was it Silver Lake? Yeah, in Silver Lake by the Trader Joe's. In our very first episode of Shooting the Breeze, however many years ago, we determined. What's that? I bought cheese from Jordan in that cheese shop. Holy cow. And you know what else about holy cows their milk makes cheeses holy cow holy cow holy sheep holy goat cheese so i'm asking you i'm asking you to start thinking positively we'll have a benchmark of new and upgrading members to reach before this triggers this cheese podcast. Let's think positively and presume we're going to meet that benchmark. Start sending me your disputes about cheese, your questions about cheese, your concerns

about cheese, your thoughts about cheese, cheese challenges. Let me know if there's a cheese that you've tried that I never have. Maybe Jordan and I will eat it on the air we're looking for cheese content we're looking for it now because we know when that max fun drive comes around you all who are listening now if you're not a member you're going to consider becoming one if you are a member and you have the means you're going to consider upgrading it's going to be great max Max Fund Drive is always fun. So get your cheese together and send it to me at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. And of course, no matter what your dispute is about, we want to hear about it at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. No case too big, no case too small. We adjudicate many of them. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

them. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.