Judge John Hodgman - Hostile Fitness

Episode Date: November 2, 2016

Heather brings the case against her husband, Joe. Joe is too competitive with Heather’s mother when she initiates challenges with him through a fitness tracking app they both use. Because of this, he has chosen to opt out of her challenges. Heather thinks these fitness challenges are a good way for them to be in touch and wants him to play along. Thank you to Jon Barr for suggesting this week's title! To suggest a title for a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put a call for submissions.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, hostile fitness. Heather brings the case against her husband, Joe. Joe is too competitive with Heather's mother when she initiates challenges with him through a fitness tracking app they both use. Because of this, he's chosen to opt out of her challenges. Heather thinks these fitness challenges are a good way for them to engage and wants him to play along. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural

reference. And they took off their bracelets? I suppose they did, Bob said. Bracelets wouldn't have been much use to them in places like that, would they, with no scanners to put them to? Jesus said they did something called fighting. Bob looked away and then back again. Acting aggressively is a nicer way of putting it, he said. Yes, they did that. Chip looked up at him. But they're dead now, he said. Yes, said Bob, all dead. Every last one of them. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he has people who exercise for him? I do. I do. Very well, Judge Hodgman. Thank you, Bailiff Jesse. Heather and Joe, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can either of you please name the piece of culture that I quoted from as I entered the courtroom. Joe, you have been brought to this court by Heather against your will. So you may

either guess first or decide that Heather should guess first. What is your choice? I'll decide that Heather should guess first. Ah, the coward's way out, Joe. But perhaps you'll get some information that will help you make a correct guess. Heather, what is your guess? I have absolutely no idea, but I'll go with Born to Run. Born? A book about running.

To run? I think that's a song about New Jersey. Well, that too. I'll take both. Okay. We'll put a rare double guess into the guess book. You know what? I don't know if I'm authorized to do this, but I'm going to throw in Born to Add, the Sesame Street parody of Born to Run. Sure. Absolutely. Triple guesses.

Yeah, it's a three for one. Only guess book. It's a three for. Joe, it is now time for you to guess. You may put it off no longer. What is your guess, sir? Joe, it is now time for you to guess. You may put it off no longer. What is your guess, sir? I have no idea either, but it sounds post-apocalyptic and Cormac McCarthy-esque. Okay, so your guess is... That's all I got.

So you've decided not to guess? Yeah, I'd prefer not to. Guessing is futile in a society in which we eat babies? Exactly. Sorry if that triggered anybody. One of the most disturbing aspects of the road. A disturbing novel. Really beautifully written.

But really... It's a more disturbing movie. I did not see the movie. Why would I put myself through that? I don't know. It's very disturbing. Did you read the book? No, I only saw the movie and then I couldn't go anywhere near the book. I won't even let it be in the same room as me.

The book, I have to say, Heather, is remarkable. And I mean, he's an incredible writer. Joe loves it. And so, Joe, you've read the book. My experience with it was, and I may have mentioned this on the podcast before, for the first 80 pages or so, I was constantly screaming at the book, often on the subway, going, why are you doing this to me? Why? I don't have to read this, go through this intense emotional pain. But then I think it's part of the aspect of the book.

pain. But then I think it's part of the aspect of the book. So if you don't know, the book is about a father and son moving through a world that has gone through some huge ecological catastrophe, such that society has broken down and people live sort of in wandering gangs. And the son and father are incredibly vulnerable throughout the book. And it's really hard, especially if you are vulnerable throughout the book. And it's really hard, especially if you are a father. And after a while, the horror, and I think it's designed this way, you get inured to the horror as I imagine you would get inured to the horror if you were actually living through something like that. And then you're reading along and it gets worse and worse and worse, but you don't feel it as much. It's a very weird literary experience. And I ended up really loving the book until I learned that Cormac McCarthy wrote it after going on vacation with his son in Ireland. His son, who at the time was 12, and Cormac McCarthy was 75 years old.

who at the time was 12, and Cormac McCarthy was 75 years old. I'm like, oh, this isn't a universal story about father-child affection and terror at mortality. It's a very specific story about the apocalypse that Cormac McCarthy is facing, that he's putting into all of our heads to make himself feel better, I guess. I hope you feel better, Cormac McCarthy. You made me sad. The good news is that for a price, we'll also write your term papers for you. Cormac McCarthy will? You and I will.

Oh, yeah, right. I wouldn't have Cormac McCarthy write my term papers. I would get an F for bad punctuation. That guy doesn't put in an apostrophe in nothing. And he would write nothing and not put an apostrophe at the end of it. Anyway, all guesses are wrong. You're Carmen McCarthy's, you're born stads, you're borns to run or you're borns to run all wrong. Although I have to say, Joe, you got close because I was reading from a lesser known work of Ira Levin, who wrote Rosemary's Baby and the Stepford Wives.

This was his second, or I don't know if it was his second novel, I think A Kiss Before Dying was first, but it was the first novel that came out after Rosemary's Baby. And it's called This Perfect Day. It was recommended to me by the great singer-songwriter and friend of the show, Amy Mann, and it's a terrific read. It is about a future utopian society, which of course is a dystopia, where everyone is exactly the same and they are drugged to a level of complicity and their movements are constantly tracked by a bracelet that they get when they come to maturity and they wear that bracelet all the time. And it monitors them constantly

and tells them when they can eat and sleep. Much like the bracelets we're all wearing today, everybody, it's happening. Because a bracelet of a kind is at the heart of this dispute. Is that not right, Heather? That is true. So what's going on? Joe's got a monitoring dystopia bracelet on, and so does your mom. Yeah, as well as many of our friends. It's something that we participate in with several different individuals.

Do you guys live in a dystopian community? A little bit. Not too much. If you go outside of Louisville, it's live in a dystopian community? A little bit. Not too much. If you go outside of Louisville, it's a little bit dystopian. Louisville itself is good. Louisville, Kentucky? Oh, I see. Yeah. So within the geodesic dome of Louisville, you are all members of the family and you're all equals, but everyone outside the dome is a mutant and an enemy? Yeah, that's exactly correct. Got it. Sounds about post-apocalyptic as I'd like it. I've never been to Louisville and I hear it's a wonderful town. You should come. You should do a show here. It's fantastic. Sure. Will you and Joe be there? We will. Absolutely. Oh, good. You haven't come anywhere even close to us, so we haven't been able to come see you,

but we would love to. Well, I'll come do a living room show in your living room. That would be fantastic. We have a nice wood stove. Do I have to wear one of your bracelets? Yeah, we have an extra. We could lend it to you. One of us. All right. Anyway, let's stop talking about your wood stove and start talking about your problems. What's the problem with Joe? problems. What's the problem with Joe? Well, Joe is a wonderful husband in many ways, but we purchased these bands. I actually got one. My mom bought it for me for my birthday in April. And then Joe really was a little bit jealous of my band. And so I got one for him shortly

thereafter. And they're fantastic. We participate in weekly challenges with a lot of our friends, and it's really motivating to get up and make sure you're moving enough. But most of the people in the challenges, like myself, work office jobs where we certain days cannot get that many steps. Joe is an English professor, and my mom owns a B&B, so neither of them are tied to a desk all day. So they will frequently have three times as many steps as anyone else in the challenge. Um, so they are really the only competition for each other. Um, and Joe doesn't like that my mom is so competitive because he is so competitive. So, um, frequently he will refuse to be in challenges with her because he feels like he

can't win. And if he can't win, then he shouldn't play. And I think that's ridiculous. Okay. So just for people listening at home who may not know about this, there's a technology called a conformity band, or I call it a dystopia band, or a watch, a techno watch, a number of very popular brands. And you connect them to your body, and they monitor your heart rate and your motion through the 3D simulation we all inhabit called Earth. And you count your steps. Or it counts your steps and keeps a log of your every movement so that you can see how well you are scoring in life. And we won't call it what it is because we don't buzz market on the show. But there are actually a lot of different brands of it now.

And it's for exercise and fitness purposes. When you say that you guys do challenges, you set this up across the family, like you, Joe, your mom, who else is involved in one of the challenges? There's a lot of our friends involved too. There's actually an app that syncs with the band. So you just like your friends on the app. And so you just invite them to the challenges and it's all logged through your phone. Like you can go and check and see who is, you know, who's doing what.

So it's paired with the phone. And that way. So like how many people will be involved in a challenge in an ideal world for you? I would say on average, it's about five upwards, anywhere between three and eight, usually around five. Yeah, but who's involved? You, your mom, Joe, who else? A couple of my co-workers, a couple of our friends from back, we used to live on the East Coast. We live in Kentucky now, but so some of our friends from there, a couple of our friends from here, just basically anyone we know that has a band will invite them to the challenges and to be our friends. I take it you don't want to use any of their names because

within your dystopian cult, you all have the same name, which is Louie, and that's why you live in Louisville? Exactly. I see. Okay. So Uncle Louie and Coworker Louie and Coworker Louie B. And Louisa. And Louisa. Right. okay. And so how long will a challenge last? There's different types. So there is the weekly challenge where it's called like the work week hustle. It goes from Monday to Friday. But there's also a weekend challenge

that is just Saturday and Sunday. And then there's a daily challenge, which is just for that single day. And what's being measured is how many steps? Yeah, so how many steps do you get within the time of the challenge? And so what happens is at the end of the week, the person who wins the challenge, all of that data goes to the central supercomputer and it evaluates your

comparative fitnesses and then it eliminates the least performing human. Yeah. I mean, you basically just get a medal, but that might be happening in the background. The winner gets a medal and the person who loses is pulped for food? Yeah, exactly. I mean, it depends what time of year it is. Sometimes they're fed to the lions in the Coliseum. Right. Well, entertainment is a basic human need and supercomputer will serve all of you in its own way. And Joe, you're dropping out of these challenges. Why? Well, there's a few reasons. I mean, Heather rightfully points to, um, the fact that it's very hard for me to win. What, one of these things that these step tracking devices do is to, um,

tell you how many average steps you have per day. And my average is somewhere around 16,000 and her mother's is somewhere around 21,000. So entering these challenges. It's not that it's difficult for you to win. It's that your mother-in-law is creaming you. She's yeah. With like no kind of. I object to that. Thoughts about my feelings. Well, how can you object to what is objectively true, Heather? I should have submitted some evidence

because that's not true. They are usually, like, the challenges usually end with them being in a thousand steps of each other, which is less than half a mile. It's a very close competition, generally. I'm not sure I agree with that. Well, one of you is lying. The community

cannot stand for a liar. Which one of you shall be eliminated by a supercomputer? What I'll say is that there are definitely days where I get more and then there are even there are sometimes where I do win. The real issue is that, like she said, her mom owns a bed and breakfast. She's obviously cleaning this, doing a lot of stuff around there. So sometimes she'll get 30,000, 35,000 steps a day. My top end is somewhere around 26,000 if we go for a long run on a Sunday or something like that. So you don't want to play a game that you can't win? Well, that's part of it. I would say the other part of it is that when I almost invariably lose, another thing that Heather has a problem with is that I'm not allowed to then complain about it.

So she wants me to kind of carte blanche, do these challenges and accept them. Another thing that Heather has a problem with is that I'm not allowed to then complain about it. So I have to, she wants me to kind of carte blanche, do these challenges and accept them, knowing that I'll probably lose and then not being able to complain about it. And that's not even, that's kind of like half my issue. And the other issue being the social aspect of it. I'm not on any social media. I don't enjoy social media. I don't enjoy the, the, the part of it that, um, the challenge parts of it. That's not why I have the device. And, um, yeah, so it's those kinds of three things altogether is what is, is why I don't

want to do them. Well, what does social media have to do with it? Other than you, you just want to be braggy, like a hipster who says he doesn't have a TV. Other than you just want to be braggy like a hipster who says he doesn't have a TV. Right. So in these challenges, the device through your phone constantly reminds you of who's on top or who's not. People say things and it tells you what they say and then they cheer each other. And it's a lot of... But you can turn those off. You can turn the notifications off.

In your view, Joe, this is an equivalent of a kind of social media. Exactly. You're getting pinged and buzzed and poked and up-thumbed and all kinds of things all the live long day while you're trying to profess some English. Well, I'm just trying to, you know, catch up on the reading you've obviously done that I haven't. I'm not very well read. I read that Ira Levin crazy apocalypse book book but that's it got one up on me

it's not a competition so long as I win Heather what do you care if Joe is involved in these competitions or not well I care because I do think that Joe enjoys it I think that sometimes he really likes the competitions maybe not as much as he did we've had these for about six enjoys it. I think that sometimes he really likes the competitions. Maybe not as much as he did. We've had these for about six months now. So I think maybe he liked it a little bit more when we first got them than he does necessarily now. But I do know my mom continues to very much enjoy it. And she enjoys beating her son-in-law.

Yeah, she does. But she also just enjoys having the competition because she really doesn't know anyone else who gets anywhere near as steps with her. Like I always do the challenges with her, but she just she actually does cream me like I can't compete because I work in an office all day. Heather, you're 100 percent loser in these things. Yeah, I really am. Sometimes I beat other office workers, but not other non-office workers. Is it important to you, Heather, to beat your mom such that if you can't do it, someone in your household has to? No, I'm fine with my mom winning and I think it's good for her. I think it encourages her and she makes her really happy. So I'm fine with that. Would you say

that it's something for her to live for? I do think she gets a lot of joy out of it. I mean, my mom is a very competitive person. She always has been. I think that's Joe's problem as well. So it's not that you want Joe to beat your mom. You want Joe to offer himself as a sacrifice to your mom every week so that she can feel good about herself. So she won't lie down in one of her bed and breakfast rooms and fall asleep forever. A little bit. A little bit.

I also think that, you know, my mom, so we live in Kentucky and we lived in Delaware before this. And my mom has always lived in Arizona. So my mom and Joe have never had a chance to live in the same state or be very close to each other. So I think this is a good way for them to, you know, work on building their relationship when they don't get to connect in a lot of other ways. Through active internet-enabled hostility? Yeah. I didn't realize that this was a long-distance steps. Yeah, very long distance.

So you're in Kentucky. Your mom's, where in Arizona is she? She's in Cave Creek. It's a little outside of Phoenix, about 45 minutes outside Phoenix. Okay, I'll take your word for it. I'm not going to look it up right now. It's a very nice little town it's by sedona it's it's it's quite nice not in tucson no very about three hours north of tucson she should take a ride down to tucson

and stay in the hotel congress and go see a show at the rialto theater and see if that mural thy painting of me is still on the side of the theater. Oh, she should go see that. She really should. I don't know why your mom's so lazy. She's probably busy looking at the Grand Canyon or some other dumb thing. Yeah, right. No, she's like four hours south of the Grand Canyon.

She's between the two. You know what? She picked a terrible place to live because those are the two good things in Arizona that I know of. And she's, well, I guess she's right in the middle. Yeah, I think probably the real estate agent sold her on being halfway between the Grand Canyon, the world's greatest natural wonder, and then painting that someone

did one time of John Hodgman. Those are the two things in Arizona, as far as I know, that are worth seeing. I think there's also Ho Ho Cam Park. That's where the Cubs play their spring training games. Oh, yeah. Go Cubs. So, Joe, there is a time difference between you and your mother-in-law. There is. And that's part of your issue as well. Right.

So, it's a three-hour difference. And you have to sync your phone with the device, and then it updates how many steps you have. And a lot of the times I'll update it and then miraculously pull into the lead for a moment. And then I feel it actually uses that time difference to then catapult past me. Right, because she's three hours in your past. Right.

She's gaming the rotation of the Earth to win. Right, and if I could somehow do a kind of... Right. She's gaming the rotation of the Earth to win. Right. And if I could somehow do a kind of... Reversal of the rotation of the Earth like Superman. Like Superman. Right, exactly. Heather, how do you respond to the fact that your husband says your mother is a cheater? I don't think...

I mean, I think that he's right. I think she definitely does use the time advantage um or the time difference to her advantage um I think that it's just it doesn't matter quite as much who wins I think it's just a fun challenge like they're not you know supposed to be you don't actually get a medal it's just a picture of a medal you don't get anything from it um so I think that he should just enjoy you know the motivation to be a little bit more active, even though he's already very active. But just, you know, just enjoy the motivation. Enjoy talking to my mom. Enjoy, you know, being a little bit social, even though he doesn't like. I would disagree that it's like social media because there's only like between three and eight people there.

It's not like Facebook where you're posting it to everyone or anything like that. It's a very small contained. You say that he should enjoy a thing, but he's saying he doesn't enjoy it. Well, I wish that he would enjoy it. I understand that's not a reasonable thing to ask of him. So I do understand that this is something I'm asking him to do that he does not enjoy. But I also feel like it's a very, very, very small thing to ask him to do. I don't, my whole family lives out in Arizona, so we don't ever have any interaction with him. So it's not like I'm asking him to do all this family stuff. This is the only family related thing I've ever asked him to do. And what interaction is there

other than getting the number of steps recorded to you? So there's like a chat feature on the app too. There's trash talk? A little bit, sometimes. Not really. Most people are really encouraging on it. It's more of like, oh, good job. You got your step goal or something along those lines. There's not too much like, there is actually, I think a booing button or something where you can like boo other people.

But for the most part, oh no, it's taunting. Yeah, you can taunt other people. But for the most part, it's very positive and not too much trash talking. We're actually getting a taunting button installed on Judge John Hodgman. Technicians coming in next week. Taunt, taunt, taunt. Joe, are you getting online bullied by your mother-in-law? No, but she is very nice about winning, which makes me suspicious that it's actually meant good faith.

That's a joke. I mean, she's a very warm person. Heather's absolutely right. Part of the problem may be that I've only actually met my mother-in-law maybe three times. I think four. Really? Maybe four. Yeah, so we met, as Heather said, in Delaware in grad school.

And we've been married now for two and a half years. Congratulations. Right. So the first time I actually met her was at the wedding or a few days before. And so I definitely don't have a very strong relationship with my mother-in-law. And that's part of what compelled me to come on the show was to say that, yeah, I don't have a strong relationship with my mother-in-law, and I should, and this is one way I might do that.

I totally see Heather's point there. I think, I guess, when I got married, I realized that part of that agreement is to put the family, the community before the self. And, you know, is this one of those moments where I should be doing more of that is something I'm. Was that really in your vows to put, to put, to put the dystopian community above yourself? No, but I think it's tacitly in everyone's vows. I don't think, I don't think marriage is about utter self-abnegation to the dystopian

will of the whole. I think it's about balancing your needs as an individual while widening your circle of familial obligation, contact, and duty. Joe, how much is your objection to this about having this ongoing relationship with your mother-in-law? How much of it is about the fact that it's an adversarial relationship? And how much of it is about the fact that it's an adversarial relationship and how much of it is about the fact that the relationship happens in this social media like form that beeps and boops in a way that you don't like and how much of it is about you not wanting to lose i i think definitely the second part of it it's uh it's it's totally virtual uh, it's, it's totally virtual and, um, it's, uh, it's, it's not to me in my mind, an authentic way to spend more time with my mother-in-law and get to know her. Um, it, it is, and like you said, it is adversarial. I don't, I mean, I, I guess I'm competitive,

like Heather says, but I don't enjoy competition. It doesn't make me, it makes me anxious in certain ways. Um, and I don't, I don't like that. That's maybe, I mean, maybe you gave me a way to express that, but it's, it's that my, the relationship I'm forming with my other than law perhaps is predicated on this adversarial thing. Um, is part of the problem. Do you have an alternative in mind? I mean, I guess I could call her once in a while or be a human. I don't know. That would be your preference. I think so let me understand the communication that's going on on the social aspect of these competitions are you texting each other heather are you forming words from your brain or are you just pressing various prompts such as taunt thumbs up medium thumbs up

there is like a cheer and a taunt button but most of it is like texting like it's like a there's like a text a texting thing and your mom is obviously too busy to come on this podcast what else does she have going on in her life um Mostly just running the bed and breakfast. She's in Alaska right now, helping some friends renovate their house. But that's mostly, I mean, she runs the bed and breakfast mostly by herself. So that takes up all of her time, but it's just not time station. Sounds like a remarkable busy woman who's got a lot of interaction with other humans all the time. Bed and breakfast guests coming in and out, going up to Alaska to help renovate a house.

Why do you think she needs to hear more from her dumb son-in-law? Well, I think that she really has enjoyed the time that she has spent with Joe and she does want to get to know more. And I think also she really doesn't just enjoy having the competition. I think if there was another person that we were friends with that got anywhere close to those amount of steps, it wouldn't be that Joe's presence or absence would be so noted. I think it's because he is the only one that gets anywhere close to her that she cares about it more. You're talking about getting someone else, like a steps husband,

a secret steps spouse who can give your mom a run for her money. Heather, I need you to be real with me for a second here. Sure. I'm sure that Joe loves you and the two of you have a happy marriage, so I'm going to stipulate to that. Does Joe like interacting with anyone else socially in any other context? In other words, is his claim that this is about not wanting to have his phone go beep real and he actually is a social and gregarious guy in real life? Or does he just not want to talk to anybody? No. So he talks to like there are multiple people that he

either texts with or like chats with through a popular email service that has a chat feature. There's multiple people that do not live here from friends from grad school mostly that he communicates with on a very regular basis i would say um if not every day every other day at least and there's probably about three or four people like that um and then he's he's a social guy generally i mean he's um not some sort of you know like, like antisocial person. He is a very kind of, I wouldn't say gregarious, but definitely not antisocial. So I think I understand why he doesn't like social media, but he's definitely still a social person. So you're saying he keeps in touch with his friends.

So why doesn't he talk to my mom all the time? Yeah, a little bit. Do you have any sisters or brothers, Heather? I do. I have three brothers. And are they nearby? They all live out in Arizona as well. Oh, I see.

And Joe, do you have sisters or brothers? I have two younger sisters. And where are they in the world? One is in New York and one is in Baltimore. Where are you from? I'm from Baltimore. You you're from baltimore all right um so joe if i were to find in your favor are you offering to call your mother-in-law like what once a week get to know her better um i don't think my mom would actually like that. I don't think she would like that. Oh, okay. I think I'd be more likely to text her.

Yeah. She would prefer that. Yeah. I actually don't have a problem with doing the challenges. I just want to be able to not do it if I don't want to. to not do it if I don't want to. I would be happy with doing 75% of the challenges or something, but Heather wants me to do 100%. How many challenges come up in your life, say, in a week?

So many. So usually, like Heather said, there's the week-long one. We normally do that. We normally do the weekend, and then sometimes daily challenges so two per week sometimes three or four who sets these things up who initiates the challenges oftentimes heather and she'll invite both of us got it heather what why don't you just let everyone have their lives and not be fighting all the time for steps? So if I don't set the challenges up, my mom will frequently set them up.

And then I feel like it's more noticed that Joe doesn't join it when she sets them up. So a lot of times I'll try to circumvent that by setting them up myself. I think that Joe is maybe a little bit more inclined to join them if I set them up, or at least if he doesn't, it's not as quite as obvious that he didn't join her challenge. So your answer is you will, you will use every manipulative opportunity to trick Joe into being a part of this thing. Oh yeah, basically. Okay. basically. Okay.

She's honest. All right. You know that people lived for a long time without having virtual video games on their wrists all the time. Yeah. Right. I actually said that. I was like, why don't I just get rid of the thing?

No, you must be part of the group. You must be part of the group. You might as well stop taking your sedatives. You might as well grow out your hair again and stop wearing the jumpsuits. I do think he really enjoys them, though. But why? Why do you think that when the words coming out of his mouth are, I don't enjoy this?

Well, so I don't think he enjoys the challenges with my mom. But I do think he enjoys having the bracelet generally. So I don't think he enjoys the challenges with my mom, but I do think he enjoys having the bracelet generally. I mean, we went we were going on a walk the other day and it was just like down the street, like just to a store, like a couple blocks away. And he didn't have his bracelet on. And he stopped and said, oh, wait, I have to go back and get my bracelet for just to log. Like it was maybe 300 steps like and this was just last week. He just didn't want to be taken by the drones that patrol you guys for behavioral anomalies. Joe, let me ask you this question.

Okay. Do you want this thing on your wrist? I mean, I honestly do enjoy it on my own terms. It doesn't bother me. Since when are you allowed to have your own terms mutant get out of the dome right I do enjoy it

the part that I don't enjoy is like you said being in the dome I'd like to be able to die if I don't want to or not go on a challenge if I don't want to there are aspects of it I do like because when you get a new step goal or it it tracks how fast you run a mile that's part of those uh it's like you know you i beat my old best life there's evidence of improvement i enjoy that aspect of it you know i'm an avid runner and

weightlifter of those what solitary pursuits of personal perfection um Oh, you took my words away from me. Exactly. So I enjoy having reflected back at me some evidence that something's changed or, you know, I think in some ways that's why I became an academic too, because the CV is kind of the same kind of thing. So when you look at this interface and like, oh, well, it also tells you if you've walked a thousand miles or something, it's that you've walked the length of New Zealand. I enjoy those aspects, but those are largely personal. Right. What is your field of study in English? I'm a medievalist,

so I study anything from Augustine through Chaucer. Right, so you're bent over your illuminated manuscripts by yourself all the time. I'm a philistine. Yeah, I got you. All right, Heather, if I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me order, Joe? Well, so when Joe says he enjoys it so much, like to actually accept the challenge, like you just hit the button and you can turn off all the notifications. So you

really don't have to ever look at it again. It's not something that he has to really interact with. So I would want you to rule that, you know, maybe not for my challenges, but whenever my mom invites him to a challenge that he accepted, because I think it's a small token just to make my mom happy and it's not too much to ask of him. All right. I think I've heard everything I need to. I'm going to go deep into my underground bunker where those of us who are allowed free will continue to party and enjoy the luxuries of real food and water and air. And in a moment, I'll be back with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Heather, do you really think this is the best way for your husband to interact with your mom?

I don't think it's the best way. I think that it's, you know, one of what should be several ways. But I do think it's something that, you know, they interact a lot more than they did before having these bands. So I think it's moving in the right direction. they interact a lot more than they did before having these bands. So I think it's moving in the right direction. Joe, would you rather interact with your mother-in-law, perhaps, in a silent, cloistered room in a library,

both of you sitting next to each other, reading manuscripts silently while wearing white gloves? Could separately chant how we feel. How do you feel about your chances, Joe? I came into this kind of thinking I would lose. You seem like such an optimistic guy. No, I mean, I think Heather is right that I should make more of an effort to be close with my mother-in-law

and this is one way I could do it. So, yeah. Heather, are you as optimistic as Joe is pessimistic? No, I feel like pretty pessimistic as well. I don't think that went as well for me as I thought it was going to go. I thought that I was completely right. I still think I'm completely right, but I don't know if I made my case as strongly as I could have. So I feel a little pessimistic.

We'll find out in just a moment whether we've met our Judge John Hodgman goal for everyone to lose. We'll be back with more Judge John Hodgman in just a second. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In.

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Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks.

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babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. Utopias are formed when someone believes they are absolutely right and have figured out the absolute right way to live and believe that deviation from absolute rightness is deviance and an error that needs to be corrected by persuasion, force, or regular transdermal mood-altering drug treatments.

I don't know what's going on in your house, Heather. I don't know what's going on in your house, Heather, but what began as a joke reference to dystopian societies has now become very real for me in this courtroom. that if your loving and beloved husband has only met your mother half a half a dozen times or whatever it is, that he should get to know her. And it probably gives her pleasure to get to know this person who is such a big part of her daughter's life when she's not too busy having fun with her friends in Alaska and actually remembers you for a moment. I'm sure she enjoys remembering that she has a son-in-law too. And I absolutely agree that when she initiates a challenge on your family conformity bracelet ring, that the polite thing to do is to go, yes, mom, and let her have her fun destroying you all

with her incredible vibrancy of life and active lifestyle. But what really touched me as we were speaking about this was Joe's expression that marriage is about the destruction of self and the giving over of all identity to the family, which truly sounds like a cult. I'm not saying, Heather, that you are the charismatic personality that has brainwashed Joe into thinking this. Although you do seem wonderful.

And I am ready to join at any moment. Please give me my new name. But I must correct you, not because I know what is absolutely right, but I offer only my experience, having been in a marriage for longer than you, and having known a lot of married people for whom it has worked or it hasn't worked, marriage is not about giving over your own preferences, your own desires, your own interests, your own introversions to live in service of the marriage and the extended family. You are an individual within a community.

You are not a number within a system that demands complete subservience. Just because you're all wearing bracelets does not mean you don't still have your own names. And I feel now that this has become, even though I was inclined to rule like, come on, Joe, if your mother-in-law says, let's have a run, you got to say yes, because that's a filial and law duty. But now that I understand that this is a simple plea for personal freedom from a brainwashed slave. I have to step in and put an end to this before it leads to cannibalism or any of the other excesses of any utopian experiment, which invariably leads to dystopian discord. And so I am not going to rule in your favor, Heather. I'm sorry.

It's okay. I mean, and the reason is that, yes, in life, among friends and among spouses, there are absolutely things that people should enjoy. My wife should enjoy the novel, A Game of Thrones. That's a truism, but she doesn't. And even though she can't explain why she doesn't enjoy it, I can't deny that she doesn't enjoy it. And I can't force her. I mean, this is the bedrock principle of the Judge John Hodgman podcast, which is people like what they like. And indeed, that is why the Judge John Hodgman podcast, it's been acknowledged by many publications, is the last bulwark against autocracy on this earth.

autocracy on this earth. It is a human right of Joe's that when his bracelet goes beep boop sometimes if he feels like it he can go beep. Sometimes if he feels like it he can go boop. He still has free will.

He expresses what he enjoys and what he does not enjoy. He knows what he enjoys and what he does not enjoy. He knows what he enjoys and what he does not enjoy. It is his right to enjoy the things he enjoys and to not enjoy the things he doesn't enjoy, even if you think he should enjoy them. So while I encourage you, Joe, to be mindful of politeness and maybe every now and then give your mother-in-law a thrill by letting her kick

your teeth in steps wise once again i still find in your favor i also encourage you to start texting her and develop a close relationship uh with your uh mother-in-law, learn about her adventures, learn about her B&B people, you know, make human contact. And then you will have a real human connection with your mother-in-law, probably better than your wife's connection with her, because she's just chasing her through a bracelet contest. And then you'll really win. That'll be the ultimate victory.

So Heather, you're adorable, but you're a tyrant. You must be stopped. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge Sean Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Heather, this is near total defeat. How do you feel?

I'm okay with it. I do want Joe to have free will. So I think that he will be mindful and try to be polite to my mom despite the ruling. But I do think he should be able to do what he wants. Maybe you should design some kind of special clothes that everyone in your family wears. I think we should. I'll send you guys a pair. Okay, great. Joe, how are you feeling in victory? I feel good.

I mean, I think that the judge and what Heather just said is right, that I should make more of an effort. And I think there are ways to do it much more authentically than through a conformity bracelet. What are you planning on? I have to get her phone number first, but I'll give her a call when she gets back from Alaska. If only someone you knew had her phone number.

Had it, right. Well, I wish the two of you the best of luck. Thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Well, another... Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney,

is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. Thank you.

And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I.

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Thrilling case comes to its conclusion, Judge Hodgman. Jesse, may I offer you a perfect food disc? It's a wafer. Oh, thank you very much. And look at this. It complements perfectly my flowing robes. It's food to match your rank in society. You know, we're both increasing our ranks in society by traveling the roads of this great nation, entertaining its good people.

Jesse Thorne, where are you going to and how can I see you? Well, I am going to be, along with a couple of other MaxFun podcasts, at the Chicago Podcast Festival. It's the weekend of November 17th at a variety of theaters in the Chicagoland area. November 17th, I will be appearing along, doing Bullseye, along with our friends at Lady to Lady, another Maximum Fun podcast. And on the show, I will be interviewing Andre Royo, the wonderful actor from Empire, and also, legendarily, he was Bubbles on The Wire. Oh, uh, from, uh, Empire and also, uh, legendarily he was, uh, Bubbles on the Wire.

Um, and he's- Oh yeah, Bubbs. Bubbs. And, and he's such a fun, cool guy.

Like he's just a delightful guy. And one of my absolute favorite standup comedians in the entire world is going to be doing a set. A guy named Dwayne Kennedy. Um, he's not the most famous standup comedian in the entire world, though he's, you know, he's been on Letterman and all these different things. But man, is he funny. Like really genuinely one of my favorites in the entire world.

I always enjoy learning about a new stand-up with whose work I am not familiar and I will check him out. Unfortunately, I cannot join you that weekend at the Chicago Podcast Festival because I will be performing on the 17th in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, as part of the ArtsQuest Music and Arts Festival there in the Lehigh Valley area. I'm really looking forward to it. for that, of course, at johnhodgman.com slash tour, where you can also get tickets for my performance on November 11th when I'm bringing Vacationland, my one-man storytelling ha-ha show, to Seattle, one of my favorite cities on the earth. And you can also learn about an appearance that I'll be making at MIT the night before, November 10th, where I'll be in conversation with Seth Mnookin, just talking about comedy and stuff. All those details are available, of course, at johnhodgman.com slash tour.

I hope you will check it out and maybe attend one of them because it is better when you are there. Yeah, this is going to be a couple of fun things. And I'm also just going to mention here, just on the DL. And I'm going to ask Judge John Hodgman listeners, you know, keep this close to the vest. Okay. But if you live in the Chicagoland area, we got something coming up for you. I know what you're saying. Jesse, is it going to happen in February?

Yeah, sure. It's going to happen in February. And I know what you're saying. Usually in February in Chicago, you like to be outdoors enjoying the wide open spaces. Yeah. Like your frozen lakes and your frozen noses, your frozen horses. That's it.

What we're doing, you guys, it's going to be the John and Jesse Outdoor Chicago Sopping Wet 5K Barefoot Fun Run. Exactly. But yeah, keep your eyes open for that. We're about to announce it. And of course, MaxFunCon and MaxFunCon East tickets are going to go on sale on Black Friday, the day after Thanksgiving. So get ready for that.

All kinds of exciting stuff coming up. Yeah. And I look forward, let's just say I look forward to being in Chicago in the cold. And I also want to say our producer is Jennifer Marmer, the newly married Jennifer Marmer. I went along with some of my colleagues here at MaximumFun.org to Jennifer's wedding here in Los Angeles. And her husband, Shane, is a wonderful, lovely, charming, very funny and talented guy. He's just a delight. And the two of them are just a wonderful pair. And we couldn't be more happy for her. So congratulations to the happy couple.

Congratulations to them both. And I'm so glad they were able to give up their own personalities and merge and give themselves over to the Commodore 64 that's going to run their lives forever after. Speaking of landmarks in the Maximum Fun family, I got a text that Travis and Teresa just had a baby girl. Yeah. Congratulations, you guys. We're working on developing her new podcast. Her name is Barbara Lee. It's already more popular than this one. Yes, exactly. Congratulations to Travis and Teresa.

And our thanks this week to Lindsay Pavlis, who's been running the boards, and Christian Duenas, who helped set things up while Jennifer's on her honeymoon. If you've got a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. Big or small, we looks at them all. We're looking for cases, Judge Hodgman. We need cases.

Yeah, the case bank is getting a little low. If you don't have a fight, start one. Yeah, well, don't start a fight just to get on a podcast, but think about the fights you're having now and whether they'd work for a podcast. I bet you they would. Go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO and tell us about it. We'll decide. Don't worry, oh, is this too small?

Is this too big? Is this too whatever? Tell us about it, and we'll call and chat, and we'll figure it out. I like getting your mail, so please write on in. Hashtag at JJHO on Twitter. Go to MaximumFun.reddit.com to talk about this case on Reddit, and

like Judge John Hodgman and join the Maximum Fun group on Facebook to talk about it on Facebook. All of that said, I think we're done. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. Goodbye. Goodbye. maximum fun.org comedy and culture artist owned listener supported