Judge John Hodgman - I Pledge a Grievance to the Flag

Episode Date: December 11, 2014

Should a couple install a sports team's flag outside their home?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, I pledge a grievance to the flag. Christian brings the case against his wife, Corinne. They're both big fans of a university sports team, and they aren't afraid to show their spirit. Christian wants to fly their team's flag outside their house on game days, but Corinne says that's one step too far. game days, but Corrine says that's one step too far. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters and presents the obscure cultural reference. I've had years of cramped up city life trapped like a duck in a pen. All I know is it's a pity life can't be simple again. Jesse Thorne, swear I'm in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, Chessie Thorne, swear a man. It was as a non-scholarship Division III player. I do.

I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman? I actually, Jesse, always dreamed that I could be small enough to be the coxswain on a crew ship. Do you know? Because that seemed like if there were any sport that I could be involved in, first of all, it would be one where I would not have to do any physical activity whatsoever. I just love the idea of yelling at the sportsman all day long. Just like, do this, do this.

And I'd get a little thing and I'd get a free ride. I feel like the dream of being a coxswain on a college crew team is like the ultimate dream of the preppy dorkus. Yeah. Well, welcome to my life. And I apologize for mispronouncing it. I should have said Coxwayne. Coxwayne is the correct pronunciation. But now, Christian and Corinne, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment. And one of yours favors.

Christian, I bet you know the piece of culture that I was referencing. I'm just wondering whether you can bring yourself to say it. Oh, it's like big time pressure. I'm going to blame nerves because I could not identify it. No. Few Corinne. Can you. Can I know?

Yeah. Can you, can you name the piece of culture that I quoted as I entered the? Can I? No. Yeah. Can you name the piece of culture that I quoted as I entered the courtroom? I'm sorry. No. What is the final lyric of a song? Oh, is it Sweet Home Alabama? Do you have it now? No, it is absolutely not Sweet Home Alabama.

Okay. That's why I didn't recognize it. All right. And how would you know anyway? you, you are not from Alabama. Is that correct? That is correct. I only went to school there. Graduate school.

Right. All right. Yeah. All right. Very well. We'll get, we'll get to all those details in just a moment. How would you feel if I went on to the, to quote the rest of the song, Rocky top, you'll always be home sweet home to me.

Good old Rocky Top. Rocky Top, Tennessee. Rocky Top, Tennessee. How does that make you feel, fan of the Alabama Crimson Tide? It makes me feel deep disgust. Yeah. I bet it does because that is the running and kicking team that you don't like. That is absolutely correct. In fact, I credit my fandom to Alabama sports, besides my having attended there, to having gone to a Alabama-Tennessee game in Knoxville and the fans in Knoxville having treated me very poorly.

Oh, I'm so sorry. Well, we won. Oh, did they, but did they, oh,

right. Okay. So they were the ones who were crying. You know, guys, here's the thing. I'm just going to premise is by saying, I don't like sports and that's fine.

I like people who like sports there. Sometimes I'll enjoy a sports. You know what I mean? Sometimes I'll enjoy a baseball game or whatever football. I do not understand, but that's fine. I like people who like sports. Sometimes I'll enjoy a sports. You know what I mean? Sometimes I'll enjoy a baseball game or whatever. Football I do not understand, but it's not my thing. I'm not a big fan of concussive sports necessarily. That said, I made a joke about sports on Twitter because some football game was happening one afternoon

and it was just totally taking over my Twitter feed. And I said something on Twitter like, oh, is sports happening? Is the team you love scoring point goals? If they win this game, will they finally bring you peace inside? Or something like that. Just something run-of-the-mill. You know what I mean? And a whole bunch of people were like, oh,

John Hodgman making jokes about sports. Boo-hoo. They were like, oh, John Hodgman is making jokes about sports. Boo-hoo. They're like, people were really upset about it. It's like, yeah, why don't you let us enjoy an enjoyable thing? And a couple of people were like, yeah, John Hodgman was clearly beaten up by jocks as a young nerd. I hope he gets over it someday. It's like, there's nothing wrong. This is, I like sports fine.

day it's like there's nothing wrong this is i like sports fine what i don't like is people saying that i have to have suffered some trauma or in other ways be abnormal to not care about sports it is perfectly normal as i have said in public many a time i don't ask jocks to name their favorite doctor who do you know it's not their thing this isn't my thing sports isn't my thing christian i'm glad it's your thing but But it's very curious because your thing specifically is Alabama football, but you are from Canada. Is that not correct? That is correct. And I'd also like to go on the record as saying that sports was not ever really a big thing for me until I went to the University of Alabama. Right there. You have to love sports or else they're going to murder you. As I

learned, as I learned when I performed with friend of the podcast, Jason Sims in Birmingham, Alabama, and Rocky Top happens to be a song that I close my comedy set with because I tell a story in which that is a factor. And in most states

of the union, this is perfectly fine. But in Alabama, when I said I was going to sing Rocky Top, everyone was like, no, don't do that. Do not do that. Because the Alabama Crimson Tide, I happen to know, has two main rivals, one of which the most dreaded rival, would you not agree, sir, is Auburn University? dreaded rival, would you not agree, sir, is Auburn University? Well, there's a very famous YouTube video I recommend everyone listen to or see where an Alabama student

says that we dislike Auburn, but we hate Tennessee. Oh, okay. I thought Tennessee was sort of second rate in your arbitrary sports hatred to Auburn, but I guess I got it wrong. Well, only because Tennessee's down right now.

Oh, okay. I got you. You want to kick him. I look forward to learning how a night... Where are you from in Canada? What province, sir? I'm from Ontario. From Ontario? Okay. I would like to know how a nice Ontario boy moved to Alabama and became a Crimson Tide fan. Let's get right into that right now. What happened in your life? How did this happen to you, sir? And I'm sorry for it. That's quite all right.

My parents were probably mainly to blame growing up. My parents were obsessed particularly with the Civil War, but kind of the South in general. My mom had gone with the wind four times in a row when she was a teenager. In Ontario. In Ontario. Oh, yeah. She's from Ontario, too. And I, growing up, became very interested in particularly Civil War history.

And I went to undergrad. I majored in history. It was one of my double majors. But I focused mainly on actually Roman history. But then when I got near the end of my studies, my major advisor said that there's really no jobs in that field. And so if I had a second choice, if I wanted to be a historian, what would I be or what would I choose? And I said U.S. history. So I ended up applying to unsurprisingly Southern schools because that had always been the kind of focus in my family.

And there was a professor at Alabama I wanted to work with. Alabama also very generously offered me an assistantship. You're giving me too much information. All it is is that you're an Ontario boy who grew up in a family that fetishized the American South. Correct. And so you moved to Alabama and you became a Crimson Tide fan to get a degree in US history. Corinne? Yes. You're married to this guy? Yes. And you are also ane? Yes. You're married to this guy? Yes. And you are also a Canadian? Yes.

Are you an Ontarian? Yes. And do you care about American football? Yes. Alright, so what is the beef between you two? It has to do with the flag. Is that not right? Correct. Corinne, why don't you explain? Well, I mean, I do enjoy Alabama football. I've been a college sport fan. And since Christian went to the University of Alabama, it was nice to actually finally have a team to root for. However, we just bought our first home finally, which has been a long road for us.

And when we bought the home, all of a sudden I heard about how Christian decided that he wanted a flag out in front of our home to announce. Specifically an Alabama Crimson Tide flag. Specifically announcing his allegiance to Alabama. And where do you live? What part of Alabama do you live in? Well, see, that's the thing. We don't live in Alabama. We live in... Oh, you don't?

No, we live in Illinois. Oh, okay. So we are not even in SEC territory. You're making reference to the Security and Exchange Commission? Yes, absolutely. Sorry, that was definitely not... It's outside of my wheelhouse. Yes, a little bit. Sorry.

That's fine. So he wants to wave this flag, and you do not want to wave the flag because you do not want to be murdered by, I don't know what, what sports team, the Fightin' the Lion Eye? Are they up there? That's correct. Well done. Well done.

Yeah. You know, I grew up in Boston, Massachusetts. They had to pound some stuff into my head. Some sports things were pounded into my poor brain. All right. Well, and my problem is more, I mean, you know, I walk around on game day with my Alabama clothing. I mean, you know, I walk around on game day with my Alabama clothing and I actually, you know, I have a script day, the Alabama logo on my car, which I put on voluntarily. But this is our first home.

And I don't feel that it's necessary to, in our lovely subdivision, put out a flag with allegiance to our sports team. Why is it unnecessary? Or let me put it this way. Why is it inappropriate? Well, I want to use the word tacky. I mean, we have a really nice home, and I just would like to keep it that way. What would you rather be on the flag? Like a beautiful floral arrangement?

Nothing, actually. We don't have like a flagpole. We don't have like one of those brackets that would hold a flag. And I don't feel like we need to go to that effort. I mean, Christian, for example, wouldn't even know how to use the appropriate equipment to put that apparatus into our brick to put the flag on our house. And I feel if he can't use the electrical power tools to attach the flag, it shouldn't even be a discussion. to attach the flag, it shouldn't even be a discussion.

Christian, why do you want to hang an Alabama football flag instead of a nice, proper Canadian flag that just says the word sorry on it? That was my joke, but here's my question. To be fair, it also has a picture of some serum. And the queen. There's a lot that fascinates me here but i want to get to i want to i want to break out the meat of of this case and then we can talk about every all the various issues that surround it uh where do you want to fly this flag do you have a flag in mind how large is it answer those questions go uh i'm envisioning which until i started researching this show i didn't know this is what it was called I'm envisioning, which until I started researching this show, I didn't know this is what it was called,

but I'm envisioning a porch flag, which is kind of a little, you know, hangs on an angle off of the front of the house. I'm thinking either from around the front door. I think Corinne sent you a picture of our house. We don't really have a front porch.

We have a little kind of entranceway. So we either fly there or in the little kind of brick spacing between the two garage doors. I'm envisioning a full-size flag, but I agree that something too kind of splashy would be tacky. So I'm thinking the kind of basic Alabama crimson background with a white script A on it. And how do you respond to Corinne's accusations that you couldn't hang a flag if your life depended on it? Well, it is true that she is the handy one in this relationship. As her mother once said, I'm the thinker and she's the doer, which is kind of a backhanded compliment. But I think, you know, as long as I had,

how hard is it to work a drill? You just need a powerful enough drill to get it into the brick. But we would have to borrow such equipment. We don't actually have a drill that good. You would have this flag up all the time? Yeah, I would think so. You know, because I don't see why you would only fly it on game days.

I think we would, unless it was inclement weather, I would probably have it up there. I think you're lying. I think you're lying. You think I'm lying? No, I think you're lying. Yeah, you don't want to have that flag up all the time. You're trying to stake out a negotiating position of extremity so that I can get you to

compromise down to just game day. No, that's absolutely not true. In fact, how you I know how you Ontarians think. I'm sorry, if there's one thing Canadians do is they stake out an extreme And then gradually come to the middle. No, it's not true. You don't want to have that flag out every day, do you, sir? In reality? Every day? Yeah. You want that to be the distinguishing feature of your home?

Well, I don't think it would be the distinguishing feature. I do think it would add some character to the home, which I would like. And it's kind of a personal sort of thing you can add to the facade of your home. Otherwise, it's just an empty facade. Corinne, how do you respond to your husband saying that your home is an empty, ugly facade? Well, I will be honest that we do need to do some landscaping. However, shrubs and flowers were next on our list for next year and can certainly be executed probably easier than Christian learning how to use the appropriate drill for brick and mortar, which will inevitably result in us needing to hire somebody appropriate to fix the brick. Now you've sent in some evidence, which includes first of all, and this is all available on the website at MaximumFun.org, course. You send in some evidence that first of all

contains a link to this very specific crimson dyed script A banner flag that you are interested in purchasing Christian. It is from a popular sporting goods website. If anyone wants to go buy all of these flags

so that they're out of stock just to make Christian crazy, I encourage you to do it. to go buy all of these flags so that they're out of stock just to make Christian crazy. I encourage you to do it. In fact, I'm going to order 1,000 of them right now. Wow, I can actually order a thousand. No, 100 is the maximum quantity that I can order. This is an officially licensed collegiate product dimension 3x5. Not one, but two brass grommets for hanging.

A team-colored cloth banner flag. And then you also have a picture of the home that you have purchased. By the way, congratulations on the home, Corinne. Thank you very much. And Christian. Why Springfield, Illinois? Corinne? It's just where life and employment has taken us.

So who's working? You guys work at a university? What do you do in your life, Corinne? I'm an artist, and I currently work as a gallery manager. Christian got transferred to Springfield, Illinois, so that's what brought us here. Illinois. So that's what brought us here. Christian, how did it make you feel as a, as a Canadian who grew up in a family obsessed with the American South to have finally found your home in sweet home, Alabama,

to have made, to have made a life for yourself, to have, to have left Canada and, and made a life for yourself in the American South, in that place where you can be a down-home boy who says sorry all the time. To have been transferred to the land of Lincoln. In the interest of full disclosure, we lived in Washington, D.C. between Alabama and here. But that's where my job first put me. But I'm a great –

What is your job? Are you an – you are an historian? Yeah, my job is difficult to explain. But I work for the papers of Abraham Lincoln. It's a nonprofit. Sorry to buzzmark it. And we're collecting everything written to or by Lincoln, and we're transcribing it and annotating it. We're going to publish it for free online.

Oh, okay, cool. So you, and that's what you were, that's what you were doing down in Alabama or that's where you're getting your graduate school. Yeah, I got my, my master's, my PhD in Alabama, and then I got hired at a grad school into this job. All right. Okay. So now, so you literally are, you're working in the land of Lincoln and you're working, uh, collecting the papers of Abraham Lincoln.

Is that correct? Yes, I work in the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library here in town. Oh, this seems pretty sweet. That's pretty cool, yeah. Okay, so now you are in the land of Lincoln, and you want to flag a big of your home, and I'm just trying to picture how this house is going to be, how this house is going to benefit from a big sports flag. And I don't think it will. How about that?

I don't see this being a beautification project. I don't know. Obviously, Corinne and I disagree on this, and obviously I disagree with the judge on this. I've seen houses. There are houses in our neighborhood that are flying, you know, sports banners. What do they fly? Oh, they are?

What sports banners are most commonly flown? Around here, you see a little bit of Illinois, University of Illinois stuff. You also see Cubs, and the Cardinals really own this town. Corinne, would you be open to flying this flag on particular game days or not at all? I would definitely prefer not at all. As I've mentioned, I'm certainly supportive of the team. I'm happy to drive around my car with my Alabama logo. We get roll tides everywhere we go.

The family dresses up in our Alabama gear on game day. And I think that's enough. You come into our house, we've got our little big owl statue. We're, you know, we've got our little setup, but this is our first house. Now see, with respect to your hobby and your love of the sports, I don't see how you could have all

of those things and then claim the addition of a flag is what pushes you over the edge into tacky. I would have called tacky a lot earlier. No offense. I agree. But I mean, you know, I just don't see this as being the bridge too far that you're making it out to be.

Well, I can see how you would say that. And unfortunately, I probably should have maybe submitted a little bit more evidence before stating my case. Do you think I would have been swayed if you showed me more of your Alabama collectibles? Probably you might have, because the logo I speaking of my on the car is is very understated shall i say um is it a permanent fixture on your car no it's removable it's you know it's one of those do you do you have do you remove it no i don't or do you just no and so you you're riding i don't i i i'm afraid i you have no you have no leg to stand on. Well, I guess not. However, my point is…

You understand that you set up a precedent of decorating permanent fixtures of your life with the logo of your sports ball team, and your husband is just now taking the extra step. Well, I mean, I can agree with you. However, we've been married for six and a half years, and we have been together much longer than that. And we have been living in apartments, basement apartments, We have been, you know, living in apartments, basement apartments, small apartments together, you know, in college apartments and when we were not college students. And we finally are living in our first home in a lovely family-oriented subdivision. And we don't, you know,

our sports paraphernalia is not in our living room anymore. It is in our den. It is, you know, in my son's room. And the car is parked in the garage. And so, you know, now the house is not, you know, is not an advertisement to our sports team.

And on a Saturday... You've done a good job disguising your lifestyle and making yourselves appear to be normal. Correct. I mean, who is who is actually normal? I mean, that's, you know, this is, I mean, in reality, come on. Is this the crux of your argument? We all have varying degrees. I mean, you know, I mean, I'm an artist. In reality, how many artists are actually sitting there watching, you know, football on a Saturday? I'm probably one of the few. However, you know, we all have elements and, you know, create, you know, every part of it, you know, parts of us make up who we are. However,

I still don't want a flag, a huge ginormous flag on the front of my house. I just, I don't want it. It's not going to be huge and ginormous. Where did that come from? Three foot by five foot cloth flag, according to the sentiment. Thank you very much, Your Honor. Flag-sized flag.

Does the content of the flag matter? I mean, if it were any other kind of flag, if it were a Canadian flag, if it were an Ontario Canadian football star's flag, it doesn't matter that it's in Alabama. What's the Ontario Canadian football team called? The Toronto Argonauts. The players? The football players?

The Argonauts? The Toronto Aronauts the players the football players the argonauts the toronto i want to see their logo hang on a second toronto argonauts the good old golden fleeces oh it's a blue a. And there they are. Accordingly, they're the 100th Grey Cup champions, whatever that means. All right. I guess they've finished their season. They're 8-10, third in the East Division. They won against the Tiger Cats. Who are they? They're also-10, third in the East Division. They won against the Tiger Cats. Who are they?

They're also from Ontario. They're from Hamilton, which is south of Toronto. The Hamilton Tiger Cats. They lost, unfortunately, on November 2nd to the Alouettes. The Montreal Alouettes. Isn't that great? It's their Canadian football team. There's a song. Alouette, jante alouette.

Fantastic. And then they won, but then they did win against the Ottawa Red Blacks. That's the name of the team? They just smashed two colors together, Red Blacks? Oh, man. I want to become a Canadian football fan so badly now. You could root for legendary Toronto Argonauts like Condridge Holloway and Danny Nickoluk.

Danny Nick? You kidding me? That guy's my hero. The Argonauts literally have a logo, which is a football made out like a Grecian oarship. And so their oar is coming out of the football and a sail on top of it. Oh, Argonauts.

I love you, Toronto Argonauts Football Club. Why don't you have their flag? If you had their flag up, would you feel better, Corinne? Um, no. But, no. All right. Well, I think I already know what my decision is going to be but let's continue to talk a little bit there is as we have established there is canadian football

which is different from american football it's it's it's played very similarly except it's what the the the the gridiron is 10 yards wider and 10 yards longer, right? And it's, what else? It's bilingual, obviously. It rewards mobile quarterbacks, I believe. Yes, there are three downs instead of four. Oh, okay. And what is that?

And how does that do anything? Please understand, I don't know how football goes. That's how many tries you get to make 10 yards, which gets you a first down. So that's you. You have another set of downs to get towards the end zone. Oh, okay. I gotcha. So why American football and not your native football, sir?

Well, two reasons. One, at the risk of being shamed by all my Canadian friends, Canadian football's terrible, but two... Explain to me, someone who doesn't care about any sports games, why Canadian football is terrible compared to American football. Well, I'm not a big fan of the Canadian, the goofy rules, like we said. We tend to get

the players that can't make it into American football. But I'd also like to stipulate that this, we don't watch the NFL. It's just a, it's just a, it's just a smaller, it's not the athletes who play it aren't as good. Yes, but this is also true of college football, which is what we are fans of, but that's, that's kind of the key. I mean, I'm I'm I've always wanted to be an academic. I went to an American university.

I really didn't know anything about college football or college sports at all when I got there. Karim was actually a fan of college sports before I went to school there. I wasn't. And that's kind of what drew me in. I'm it was going to Alabama, becoming a part of that community. I started going to the games and it just became kind of a fun aspect of my time there. What was the most appealing part of college football? How it's essentially a professional league for which the players are not ever paid? Or is it the fact that they get a college degree regardless of never going to class?

Which is your favorite part about college football? Oh, can I say one of the things that I like, and you can tell me if you like this, is how they get paid essentially with a scholarship, but then if they get hurt, they just get kicked to the curb. Yeah. And also, they don't have a career thereafter because they've been hurt. That's a fun part too. Is that your favorite part? Well, I obviously agree with all of that. And I understand that football has its problems. The only defense I can offer for that is I was a fan of lots of college sports in Alabama, not just football.

Oh, okay. But Alabama happens to be best at football, and we have this long tradition of being good at football. And it was just a fun thing to do. And saturdays you know it was the thing to do it just takes over the whole campus and i made most of my it is the whole culture and so yeah i loved it and by the and by the way people who love college football and defend college football send in your emails talk about how angry you are at the things that I said and the things that Jesse said. I get it.

I understand. Look, when you love sports as much as you do, you have to learn to develop a very thin skin. I understand. You go ahead and be offended. I'm sure that it must have been very exciting for a young Canadian man to go into the heart of the American South and experience college football fever at its most feverish, which I think is pretty much what the Crimson Tide is all about. It's overwhelming, isn't it? Isn't it overwhelming?

Oh, absolutely. And we weren't even any good when I was there. But you just get drawn into this culture. And I kind of have this attitude where I try to take myself too seriously. So if everyone's doing this thing and they're all having fun, because a lot of grad students won't get into it because they'll see this kind of beneath them. And I mean, if everyone's doing it, it's a lot of fun.

And, you know, it's really the thing to do on that campus. You know, I decide to get into it and kind of, and I don't regret it. It's been lots of fun. And I got, you know, Corinne got it. She was only there little while and it and it worked on her too it's it's hard to resist we get it i i went to uc santa cruz and i got sucked into the exciting world of fraul for frisbee golf what what's it what's the mascot of uc santa cruz uh the dreadlock go fighting dreads go fighting slugs the lost and found hacky sack sack

but i think you really put your finger on it christian is it the the thing the thing about enjoying uh the crimson tide in tuscaloosa, Alabama, is that you are fully engaging in a fully immersive culture of sports fandom that makes sense within a particular context. Alabama. Now you are in a different state. Not everyone is doing this. state. Not everyone is doing this. This is just you alone on your street flying a flag in front of your grown-up house where all, as your wife points out, all of your other sports paraphernalia have already been exiled, make the case to your wife and to an obviously prejudiced judge

as to why this particular expression of your enjoyment is so important to you. Well, it all ties into, again, me saying it's a lot of fun. You see Alabama fans everywhere. You know what, Christian? to you well it all ties into again be saying it's a lot of fun there's you you see alabama fans everywhere you know what christian christian christian i have to stop you right there because you have really put your finger on what drives me crazy about sports someone who loves sports will say it's a lot of fun instead of making the instead of acknowledging that what they really mean is it's a lot of fun for me the sports fan thinks that what they that their culture

is a lot of fun for everyone and if you're not if you don't find it fun there's something wrong with you so what is wrong with you john i don't understand how football goes i bet you i'd enjoy it a lot if i understood the rules but i've tried so many times to learn and i can't leave that alone that's my own that's my own problem maybe i had brain damage at some point but what I'm saying is I would urge you, Christian, if you want to get me on your side, and it's not impossible, I would urge you to start thinking in the context of not what is fun, period, but what is fun for you. Do you understand what I'm saying? I do, and I think what I was trying to get at is I understand that there's something very irrational about fandom. That's what I meant by fun. It's a real pure pleasure thing. There's no real utility to it. I understand that. Right. community of Alabama fans and we run into them everywhere. And it's why it's,

it's part of the reason why we wear Alabama clothes on game days. I mean, on the one hand, Corinne's saying we relegate this stuff to the, to the den, but you know, there's a farmer's market here every Saturday morning and we wear our Alabama shirts to that farmer's market because it's game day. And occasionally people will come up to us who are Alabama fans and they'll say roll tide and we'll talk about when we were there. And you know, that that's kind of cool for me.

So it's a connection to community. Putting a flag outside your house will mean if there's some lonely Alabama fan who's a hobo who just got off the train and is looking for a piece of pie or to do a little work, he'll see that Alabama flag, and he knows that he can get a good hot meal there. I'm talking about hobos who travel the rails, right? I'm not talking about homeless people, everybody.

I'm talking about hobos of the Great Depression. It's a signal. It's a signal to your community that you live there. Well, no. You think I'm making fun of you, but I'm not. I understand what you live there. Well, no, I do think I'm making fun of you, but I'm not. I understand what you're saying. It's fun to,

it's fun to wear. It's fun to be part of a team. Precisely. And even though, even though you guys don't belong to a team because you don't play the sports, but you, you buy things that makes you part of a team.

That's the pleasure. That's the pleasure of being a geek of any kind. You, you buy things, that makes you part of a team. That's the pleasure of being a geek of any kind. You wear your flag, whether that is an Alabama flag outside your house or a Tom Baker Doctor Who scarf around your neck, and you find your people. Well, the thing I would add, though, is I also went to school there. So it's also kind of membership in a club, too, that if I were to – I never knew Tom Baker, but I did go to Alabama. So having that flag out there shows also my loyalty to the school that I graduated from, and that means a lot to me since my whole career is based around, in large part, my kind of academic background. So it's part of who i am see i think this is sometimes the delusion of the sports fan if i may

say because here you are you're like well i don't even know tom baker so it's my my waving of alabama sports flag is a sign of my loyalty to my alma mater, whereas you wearing your Tom Baker scarf is just a dumb geek delusion. Here's the thing. My eyes are open. I know, first of all, I don't have a Tom Baker scarf, but if I did and I wore it, I would know that Tom Baker doesn't care about me. I'm not in the delusion that Tom Baker and I are friends. Just, I would urge you to not be under the delusion that the university of Alabama and its sports players care about you as much as you care about them. No, I'm under no such delusion. And, and, and if I had a Tom Baker scarf, I'd wear it too. But,

but I don't even know who Tom Baker is, sir. Yes, I do. I'm so why, I, why don't you wait? Why don't you try to get over whatever trauma in your life caused you to not like Doctor Who? I don't know what nerds beat you up when you were a kid, but get over it already and

enjoy something that's fun, that everyone likes. But see, that's why I made the point about Irrational Fans. I'm so sorry I made a joke about your hobby. Why don't you learn to take a joke, Jock? Oh, John. What have I done now, Corinne? Trust me, Jock is not how you need to describe Christian.

No. He cannot use tools, and sports is not something he can play. Sounds like your wife wishes you could hang an Alabama flag on your house. So let's start over and let's just try to take this out of the empirical and keep it in the personal, which is, I am a Canadian man who is fascinated with the culture of the American South and had spent a particularly important period of time in my life immersed in that culture and in that world and in my study of that world as a historian. And I came to think of Tuscaloosa and the University of Alabama as my home. I got excited in ways that I didn't appreciate I ever would be about American football and Alabama football specifically. And now that I am exiled in the land of Lincoln and missing my connection to my people, I would like to express myself by waving this flag every day,

which is a lie, but I will be willing to settle for game day. If you only, you would only rule in my favor judge, because this is important to me personally. That sound about right. That is accurate with everything, but the exile part.

Oh, all right. I apologize. I'm just trying to convince myself to do something that goes against my very nature, which is to allow you to fly a sportsing flag. You're not exiled? No. I mean, that's the thing. I went there for school.

I mean, I don't think I would object to moving back, but the idea is kind of – to use a horrible metaphor, I'm kind of planting the flag somewhere else because I graduated and I moved and I got a job. That's what you want after you go to grad school. So I don't really feel like Alabama – we've moved to so many different places. I don't really know if I really even consider anywhere home now. But it's different than just saying, oh, I wish I was there. So I'm going to fly this flag. It's more like saying I went there. I'm proud. I went there and now I'm here. All right. But you know, it's interesting because most people identify with the sports teams from their home. Do you know what I mean? And you are admittedly homeless. You are itinerant

Canadians. I don't mean to, perhaps I'm belaboring this point needlessly, but it feels a little bit rando for you guys to become such avid Crimson Tide fans, but maybe I just don't understand. I certainly didn't until I went there. So I can't explain it. Corinne, are you concerned that if I allow him to fly this flag, that this is just the beginning of repainting your house red and putting out little various shrines, little football creches in your yard or what? A little bit. I mean, I'm not sure.

I just, for me, this came out of the blue. You know, we were both really excited to get our first home together, and Christian was very excited about the aesthetics of the place. It was really interesting home shopping with him in that aesthetics was something that was very important to him. And then all of a sudden we buy this home and the first thing he talks about

is he can't wait to get a flag out there. And really? This is where this comes from. I totally... Why is the idea of a flag, whether it is an Alabama Crimson Tide flag or any kind of flag, so offensive to you? Because I've been in a lot of suburban subdivisions all over this country, and there are a whole bunch of flags of people. I mean, Christian was talking

about how you have neighbors who fly Cubs flags. There are all kinds of seasonal flags that people fly. Why do you hate flags so much? Is it just because you're Canadian? Well, I am anti-flag on the homestead. I'm going to be very honest. Please, explain to me why. Well, I mean, I am an artist. You seem intent on bringing that up. So I'm going to ask you, I bring it up because obviously aesthetics, therefore, and visuals are important to me. Um, and I'm a bit of a minimalist when it comes to my style and art.

And therefore I think that a flag is going to be too much. And, you know, I mean, again, like why an Alabama flag? I mean, you've brought it up many times. We're Canadians, so he wants an Alabama flag and people are going to go, but you're Canadian. Why, you know, why not a Canadian flag? And then so it's not just an aesthetic principle. It's also it's also you you care about what the neighbors think. I do care a little bit about what the neighbors think. And then he's, you know, he talks a little

bit about community. But at the same time, you know, I was at the store the other day and it was a game day and um my son had on um I ran into somebody wearing Alabama gear and I gave a rule tied and she was like oh yeah this isn't Alabama territory you know like some people wear Alabama clothing because they happen to be number one and so you know they just think that's cool. And so, you know, it's, it's just if we were in Alabama, this might be a different discussion, but we're not. Do you feel that there is a reason to believe that your home would be targeted by pranksters? No, no, I definitely do not. And while I agree in the neighborhood there are some people that are flying flags, in our immediate neighborhood, we live on a bit of an alleyway.

Our neighbors are not, and I don't believe our neighbors would be super excited about it. You know that's not true. Minus one gentleman who is. He would be the exception. Oh, who's the excited gentleman however he's pretty excited about everything so um however i mean he's a he's he's the minority i think everybody else has beautiful landscaping in our area you can take a fairly decent walk around the area and nobody has flags you have to walk much further to to see everyone with the flags. Christian, who's the excitable neighbor who's excited about any flag or any idea?

No, this is our actual neighbor who has friends in Alabama who are University of Alabama fans. And when we told him about this case, he was firmly in favor of me putting up a flag. Does he fly flags of any kind? He does not have a flag in front of me putting up a flag. Does he fly flags at any time? He does not have a flag in front of his house. So he's trying to get you to ruin the aesthetics of your property on his behalf. Correct, correct. And I would like to point out on the community front, they started this discussion about Alabama and their connection there

without the need to have a flag on the front of either of their homes. So they developed this sense of community without the need of a flag. That's just because your husband painted a big red on his face. Well, it was spurred on by his Alabama hat, which seems to be enough. Okay, I gotta, I gotta ask a few very specific questions. Um, do you, is this a, uh, a gated community of any kind, or do you have a owner homeowners association that regulates the kinds of, uh, decorations you can make and alterations you can make to the exterior of

your home? We do have, are there rules? We have a homeowners association. I do not know the full extent of the rules. If I were you and I were in your position, Corinne, I would immediately petition for an amendment to the HOA to prohibit the flying of any flags. That will be next on my list. All right. That would have been something

that could have shut this whole thing down very quickly. What kind of artist are you, Corinne? I went to school for sculpture and installation, and now I mostly do drawing and painting. All right. Since your husband does not understand why flags are tackyy and maybe doesn't understand the concept of tacky at all. Can you explain to him and to our audience why having a flag is tacky in Europe, in your opinion?

I'm not saying I agree with you, but I think, I think your husband doesn't understand what you're talking about. Well, I just think, um, I think your husband doesn't understand what you're talking about. Well, I just think, I think particularly. No, no, no. Say to him, say, husband, I'm sorry, but you don't understand that a house, and in particular when it comes to flying a university sports flag on the front of a house, is tacky. Because the house should be a place that is welcoming to everyone and should not be set up in a sense of creating rivalry with other sports people around. And you do not want a realtor coming around and going, you best take that one down before I attempt to sell your home.

And now, Christian, you respond with your counter argument, which is just yelling roll tide. Roll tide. Okay. I think I've heard everything I need to, in order to come to my decision, I am going to go into my chambers and think this over while listening to the various fight songs of various football teams. And I'll be back in a moment to render my decision. Please rise as judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Christian, how do you feel about your chances in this case? Well, I knew this was going to be a tough fight

going in. I know how the judge feels about sports, and I know the precedence about making someone do something they don't want to do. So I'm not super confident, but I feel like I argued as best I could. What if you had come up with some other cool flags to fly on non-game days? I mean, there's only, what, 12 game days a year, 13 if there's a bowl, right? 12 games in the college football season? 11? Yeah, about that. So, I mean, you know, you could have come up with a bunch of different other cool flags,

but see, then he would have pulled out, um, basketball and baseball and potentially gymnastics and softball. And you could have got yourself a Cardinals flag. Yeah. I haven't quite bought into the whole Cardinals fandom. I'm still a blue Jays fan having,

having come from Toronto. Well, the blue Jays being the home of the great R.A. Dickey, I can understand where you're coming from. Shout out to knuckleballs. Corinne, how are you feeling about your chances? I'm actually a little bit more nervous than I thought I would be. I thought I'd

come further ahead than I want. I'm really not looking forward to a compromise. Well, I got to tell you guys a secret, which is our intern, Julian, who's also running the boards on this week's program. As soon as the words Crimson Tide were uttered in the course of this recording, he just started vibrating with excitement. He's been sitting outside the window, like bouncing up and down, getting excited anytime someone says roll tide

for the last 40 minutes or however long this episode has been. So, Christian, you do have one ally. Well, see, that's what I was talking about, right? No matter where you are in this country, you're going to find Alabama fans, and they're excited about it. It's good stuff. Well, hang out.

I mean, I can give a good roll tide any day, and I have been praised up and down by many of our friends for being a super supportive roll tide kind of girl. This has nothing to do with my allegiance to the team whatsoever. Many a stories have been told about my Roll Tide and my supportiveness of this team. This has to do with the house and the aesthetic and the fact I do not want a tacky flag hanging on the front of my house. fact, I do not want a tacky flag hanging on the front of my house. Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all of this when we come back in just a second. Hook them horns. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you

every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org, and they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast

is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're made in, made in. The Rohan duck, made in, made in.

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And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at Babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at Babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. Please rise as Judge John Hodg re-enters the courtroom this has been a very difficult case for me to decide because um you know i've had to wrestle with a deep uh prejudice against the whole topic and really really sort of investigate my own feelings about sports and fandom and feelings of personal connection

to a thing and how you express your personal connection to a thing. I've thought about whether or not to order Christian to fly the flag, but also fly a great big blue TARDIS flag or something else, you know, to balance it out or to imagine how it would feel if his wife wanted to fly a huge, I don't know, is there something, Corinne, that you're a particularly big fan of that's not sports? You said you're into installation art. Who's your favorite installation artist? I would say Chris So. Yeah, like how would you feel Christian you feel? How would you feel? How would you feel, Christian, if if if Corinne wanted to wrap your house?

I would think that was tacky. Roll, Krista. I was going to say, or I could turn our house and our lawn into a big spiral jetty. I mean, you know, I can take this to the, you know, to the max if he wants us to. That's not a problem. Yeah, I don't know if I want to instigate a war of escalation here. And it's very hard because I think Christian's passion is clear, but Christian also has an opportunity to express his passion in many, many ways.

Wearing a hat, painting his face, painting his chest, yelling roll tide at random cars, yelling roll tide at random people at the farmer's market, until he finds his people, wearing his personal. I mean, you know, I think adorning yourself is and speaking for yourself is one thing but adorning your home permanently is uh is a is is i you know you are you are speaking now for a for a household and i think you need to have full compliance of the entire household to so to so signify uh that home as as a as a part of Alabama territory. So then the question becomes, so there's no way I'm going to let you fly that,

put a permanent Alabama flag outside your house. Thank you. And Christian, I still think you're lying. Because if you don't know, I mean, you are a true diehard Alabama fan, but you're still a Canadian, right? If you don't understand why that kind of flamboyance is distasteful, then you're lying about something. Maybe you're not from Ontario after all. I've thought about whether or not to order you to fly a Ontario or a Toronto Argonauts flag to go with your Alabama flag.

Only because I love this logo. I think it's the old, now that I've looked at it, I've really spent most of this time just observing this logo. Because there's a new Argonauts logo, clearly, which is just another A. It's perfect, right? It's a blue A, not a red A. But the old Argonauts logo, I really did not do it justice when I was explaining it before. This is a football that has been fashioned into a Bronze Age galley like the Argo, right? The ship that Jason and the Argonauts sailed in.

Correct. Like the Argo, right? The ship that Jason and the Argonauts sailed in. It's a football with a sail, and it's got long oars coming out of where the seams are on the football. And the thing that I didn't notice until I stopped talking about it last time is, at the top of the mast of the football boat, there is a big banner. And the big banner is the most Canadian football motto I could possibly imagine. It says, pull together. You, a gentleman who is obsessed with the history of American divisiveness, the Civil War and belligerence, brother against brother. The Canadian football team is pull together. divisiveness, the civil war and belligerence, brother against brother. The Canadian football team is pulled together.

And I am urging you guys to pull together. Pull together. Christian, I want you to be happy and I want you to enjoy your sports ball so much. And if I sensed that Corinne truly was open to even an inch of compromise, I would be inclined to rule in favor of compromise. Every cell in my body wants me to tell you, go enjoy your own thing and don't force this on your house. But because I am so anti sports, I have to,

I have to adjust my position in order to give you a fair hearing and to give you a fair ruling. My ruling is you may fly a flag on Game Day. Yes! This is probably

what you wanted all along, you conniving Canadian negotiator. This flag cannot be larger than three foot by five foot. Oh, no. Which is the flag that you want. It's got two brass grommets on it. Oh. You have to hire someone to professionally install hooks so that you can hang this flag

for the period of time that the game is being played. So that a passing Crimson Tide fan might know that you will give them a piece of pie. You must also display a Toronto Argonauts flag simultaneously to honor your heritage. And I want you to do that the next time. We're out of football season now, right? No.

We're done? No, we're still in? No, we're nearing the end. How many games are left? Alabama has one regular season game this upcoming weekend and then the playoffs. All right. You have to get a canadian football flag you have to get someone to professionally show you how to how to hang this thing you need to hang them side by side together

and you need to and you need to you need to stand outside with your wife on this. And this all has to happen before the game. Right? And then when the game starts, you have to stand outside with your wife. And I want you to really look at your house. And I want you to really look at your wife. And see the look on her face. And see how bad your house looks. look on her face and see how bad your house looks and see how your grown-up house looks like like a frat house look at a ridiculous frat house and i want your son to come out there too

and look at this thing and i want him to see his mother crying i want you I want you to really, really think if this is how you want to live your life. I know you have a right to live your life this way. And I won't deny it you. At least for the hour... How long does

a football game last? Three days? About, yeah. For the time that it's played you may fly you may let your let your non-freak flag fly you can let your conformity flag fly that's what i call sports flags uh and you and and enjoy it but i wonder if you really will be able to. Or maybe when you get this out of your system, you will understand that there are other ways to find your people in the world that do not involve defacing your house.

This was a hard one, you guys. I think the thing that is critical and is non-negotiable is that the means of hanging this flag and also your your old-fashioned toronto argonauts flag you have to find you can't get a new one you have to get the one that has the the football and the ship and the pole together. You have to have them both. You understand? They have to be the same size and displayed with equal prominence so that

everyone in their neighborhood understands what you guys are all about. It all has to happen. You can't hang that Alabama flag until you have both and you have a method of hanging them that does not deface or permanently scar your home. Because this is an investment. This isn't your college. This isn't your graduate school apartment with the zip line for the poutine in it anymore.

You are going to own this for the rest of your life. And I want you to feel that ownership when you look at it. And all of this has to happen before the game, and you can fly it for this game and this game only, and then unless they're going to go, is there a playoff or some kind of World Series of Alabama football that they could go to, or is this the final game and that's it?

No, there's a playoff this year. Are they going to go to it? It looks likely, yes. We're the number one team in the country right now. Bet you're happy. Bet you're happy about your spouse. I am. All right, then you're going to have to watch your wife cry even more.

Think about whether it's worth it. I think she already is. even more. Think about whether it's worth it. I think she already is. Well, at least you have to find the Argos flag first. Yeah, and you can't help him either. I got bad news.

Internet exists now. What's that? I said I got bad news. The internet exists now. You pretty much type in Argos flag. No, I've been looking for it, and I can't find one. I might get one got bad news. The internet exists now. You know, pretty much type in Argos flag. No, I've been looking for it and I can't find one. I might get one for my house. I might get a t-shirt.

Did you know that John Candy and Wayne Gretzky used to be co-owners of the Argos? Isn't that the most Canadian thing you've ever heard? I love it. And you know what? Now that I've said it, you also have to add a Hartford Whalers logo. No, I'll hold the line there. But I want you to go and look at that Hartford Whalers logo so you understand what a real good sports logo looks like. Oh, I know.

I don't even want to say this is the sound of the gavel. I don't want to make this ruling. I think it's the fair one. I think you've got to get this out of your system. I think you've got to see what your grown-up house looks like and how your wife feels about it. And then, you know, then maybe you'll understand. You've got to pull together. It's not brother against brother. Pull together.

This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. How are you feeling, Corinne? I'm feeling better. I mean, I feel like he'll understand later. I feel like he witnessed a little bit of my tears in the room here that he might already know. Christian, how about you?

Yeah, her reaction to the ruling was a little harrowing. I don't know if I'll go the effort or not, but I do really kind of want to put, especially now in Argo's flag up there, just to see what it looks like. Well, we'll see. We'll see how it goes for you two. Thank you very much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Full tide. Thank you. Thank you very much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Full tide. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman,

and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember,

no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-R. Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. We are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org If you need a laugh, and you're on the go. Bula bula, bula bula, bula bula, bula bula You remember that song, Jesse? That's the fight song of Yale's literary theory department.

Judge Hodgman, you know, our senior producer here at MaximumFun.org, Colin Anderson, is a Briton. And a couple of years ago, he lived in the United States for one year. His wife was on a fellowship and they lived in Berkeley, California. And he learned the rules of American football and learned to root for the Oakland Raiders. It was an unfortunate choice. He had the choice between the Raiders and the 49ers. He unfortunately went the wrong direction with that one. Yeah.

But it is possible as a grown adult to learn the rules of a new sport. And in fact, in Colin's case, he was not a sports fan previously, but he took it up because he had been offered a clean slate by the fact that he was in a new country with new sports. And he really enjoys football now. I think you should come over to my house sometime or maybe you and me can go over to our friend al madrigal's house who's a huge uh 49ers fan we'll watch a 49ers game and we'll patiently explain the rules until you can follow the game i know that you know i many many people including some very beautiful women have tried to explain football to me and why, uh,

how it goes and why it is, uh, why it is fun. And I bet you, I could probably get around to liking it. The reality is, and if I may just be, you know,

blunt here, I, I, you know, uh, I, I like all sports. People should enjoy what they like.

Um, I've been to some Superbowl parties and it's fun. You know, football is one where i just you know the the damage that it does to the players is so dramatic and i appreciate that that's kind of the warrior uh appeal of it but it's just it just doesn't have a hold it doesn't have a purchase on me i don't know lots of you know john oliver uh who who you know loves football football came to this country

and fell in love with American football and really loves it and appreciates it. And I just feel like it's one of those things where other people are seeing a kind of deep math or geometry that I just don't see. They're seeing a thing that I don't see. That's how I feel about it.

Well, that's how I feel about Doctor Who. And you know what? That's fine. feel about it. Well, that's how I feel about Doctor Who. And you know what? That's fine. We're great. Really, though, I don't understand why you don't like Doctor Who. I mean, it's just really, on a basic level, it's about everything. No, it's not true. I'm cool with Doctor Who.

The one I don't really get is Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Watch that. I don't understand it at all. Blair, watch that. I don't understand it at all. I was out on the road with David Reese and was hitting the treadmill hard like some kind of caged mammal in the fitness center of the Hanover Inn in Hanover, New Hampshire. We performed in the Lebanon Opera House. It was a great show. And on TV was an episode of Buffy.

And it was the one hush that has almost no dialogue because everyone's voices are taken away. And I thought, this is great television. And you know what? I was right. I got to get into that thing. I've never watched it. I mean, I watched it, but I never watched it. You know what I mean?

Sure. There are too many things that are really good. We can't like all of them. So if you love football, and if you particularly love college football, and you think I've said a lot of unfair things, just know all of culture agrees with you. It doesn't matter if I don't. This week's episode was named by Lisa Minogue White. Thank you so much, Lisa. If you want to name an upcoming episode of Judge John Hodgman, be sure to like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. John is at Hodgman. I am at Jesse Thorne. Julian Burrell was on the boards for this week's program. Hey, Julian, come in here for a second. Come in here. Julian's coming in. He's outside the studio here.

coming in. He's outside the studio here. Julian, there's one thing that I would like you to say. It's thematically appropriate for this week's program. It's something that Alabama fans like yourself like to say ad nauseum. Let's hear it one time. Roll Tide.

There you go. Julian Burrell. Our show is produced by Julia Smith. It's edited by Mark McConville. That was a pretty sort of like obligatory Roll Tide. There was not a lot of enthusiasm there. It was like, Roll Tide. Julian wasn't wearing his headphones, so he didn't hear any of that. Now he's wondering why I'm laughing at him.

Is he a sullen teenager fan of Crimson Tide? Julian is a genial 20-something. Ugh. Jeez, Dad. Roll Tide. Oh, poor Julian. Julian checked in to ask us whether his Roll Tide really sucked.

No, it was a perfectly good Roll Tide. Okay, look, if you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHo. Submit it. No case too big or too small. We reviews them all. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Roll Tide!