Judge John Hodgman - Judge, Jury, And Extra-Cushions-For-Her

Episode Date: December 1, 2021

Myles files suit against his wife, Isabel. Myles says that Isabel’s graduate school work takes up too much space in the living room. But, Isabel says that her setup is the most comfortable way to do her work. The living room is her space too! Who’s right? Who’s wrong?Thank you to Twitter User @BenjaminWalkup for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, follow us on Twitter for naming opportunities: @JesseThorn & @Hodgman. Or keep track using the Twitter hashtag #JJHoCaseNames.Get your tickets for our return to San Francisco Sketchfest! We'll be bringing LIVE JUSTICE to the Bay Area on 1/22/22 at 7:30pm, at the Sydney Goldstein Theater! Tickets are available here!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bill of Jesse Thorne. This week, judge, jury and extra cushions for her. Miles files suit against his wife, Isabel. Miles says that Isabel's graduate school work takes up too much space in the living room. Her setup is the most comfortable way to do her work. The living room is her space, too. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. Judge, jury, and extra cushions for her. All right, here comes the obscure cultural reference. Pay attention, Miles and Isabel.

All right, here comes the obscure cultural reference. Pay attention, Miles and Isabel. It's like you get to be a certain age and you stop being an actor who has a podcast and instead you become a podcaster with a hobby. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Miles and Isabel, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that the best home space was not invented by him, but rather by our friend Julia Klausner? It's called a snack nest, and you make it in your bed. I do. Absolutely. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. All right, Miles and Isabel, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can either of you guess the piece of recent popular culture that I paraphrased? I changed. It's not about podcasting. I'll put it that way. I'll read it. It's short, so I'll give it to you again. It's like you get to be a certain age and you stop being an actor who has a podcast, and instead you become a podcaster with a hobby. Can you name what that comes from, Isabel? I cannot. I can give the answer I had prepared.

Please do. Thank you very much. Personal belongings. The play by Diana Raznovich. That's a great guess. I've never heard of that playwright or that play. I'm going to say that you're correct, though, because that's so specific. I really want to honor that. I want to learn more about that play.

But we'll first go to Miles for a second and see if Miles has a guess I definitely don't have it I was going to go with Alice's Restaurant Massacre by Arlo Guthrie sure and I notice you have looks like a banjo on your wall behind you so I can see you're a real

Guthrie Guthrie head or whatever he's ready to guthry at any time yeah right exactly uh all guesses are wrong and i can see you both because you're very kindly joining us by teleconference from bloomington illinois is that correct yes all right uh you tell me about your thing first isabel what was that play and then i You tell me about your thing first, Isabel. What was that play? And then I'll tell you about my thing. It's a playwright from Argentina who, and the play is in response to her being exiled. Oh. To the regime.

And it's a one woman play. I'm in a Latin American theater class, but it's personal belonging. So it's about all the baggage you take when you're exiled from your home. But like it's represented on's about all the baggage you take um when you're exiled from your home but like it's represented on stage by all these boxes say the name of the the playwright again diana resnovich diana resnovich you are talking my language because you know i studied uh the latin american literature specifically the works of jorge luis borges a famous argentine who self-exiled to switzerland because he could but he also fell out of favor with and is which regime was she out of favor there are a lot of them the dirty war dirty wars right the the so

like the 70s 80s yeah yeah okay he fell out of favor with the um the Peron regime and got demoted from being the head of the National Library of Argentina to the National Poultry Inspector. True story. John, my sister-in-law is Argentine-American. Yeah. And her grandpa is a professional tango dancer and a former con man. Wow. He's like 90. 90 man he is really cool i know we're gonna go to mexico city jesse but after mexico city can we just head straight down to ba to buenos aires done done and done isabel you can come with miles we'll see about you but your study i know that you're studying theater and miles.

You, you, you are not working currently, but when you are working, you are working in the theater as a theatrical carpenter. Is that correct? Yeah. I,

I, does that just mean hammering with flare? I, yeah. Doing backflips, cartwheels and all that. no, I,

I'm a master carpenter at a theater back in Massachusetts. Oh, which theater? North Shore Music Theater. The North Shore Music Theater in Massachusetts. In Beverly, Massachusetts. In Beverly. Wow. So I chose this quote for you because it comes from a movie which is based on a musical play performance

that just came out called Tick, Tick, Boom, which was written by Jonathan Larson, the creator of Rent. It is what is called an autobiographical rock monologue. And the movie was just directed by Lin-Manuel Miranda. And I went to go see the movie, and it was really, really good. And it really made me think you know because the the actual quote is it's it's like you get to a certain age and you stop being a writer who waits tables and you become a waiter with a hobby there's a lot of anxiety that comes

with choosing a life of the arts in particular theater which is not the best paid of the performing arts. Yeah. I mean, I trust you're in a union miles. I hope. Well, that's a whole story. We,

we organized over the pandemic. Oh, good for you. Well, and it's, and hard is still to be someone studying the theater or working in the theater during a pandemic when you can't gather in close proximity in rooms, which is kind of the point of live theater.

And this movie is really about like, if you choose this path, don't let anyone talk you out of it because there's something very, very magical about it. And I, I, I applaud you for staying in your field, even when you can't be in Beverly, Massachusetts, but instead exiled, much like a certain Argentinian playwright that I learned all about just a moment ago to Bloomington, Illinois. Why are you there, Isabel? It was the grad school I chose chose i really wanted to go to a grad school that had a focus on teaching okay so you're gonna become a by my third year i get to

teach a lighting class which i'm super pumped about you get to teach a lighting class well i love what i love about the theater and all all and filmed entertainment too is that it's not just artsy fartsy it's also like the kick-ass trades you're building stuff you're lighting stuff you're connecting like wires into things it's dangerous it's fun it's terrific i mean building a set like what what kind of set would you build there at the new at the north shore uh theater in beverly Most interesting, at least, is we built a 11-foot tall, 26-foot across bridge that sat itself on a turntable. So the whole thing could spin.

You could access it from offstage. There's a bridge that we built separate over the audience. Actors could walk on. People could walk up. The thing could all spin around. People were on it dancing and singing while it was spinning. Was it Hamilton?

Was it Hamilton? Because that's got a Lazy Susan in it. It was Jersey Boys. Kind of the same. Two sides of the same coin. Yeah, absolutely. And so, Miles, you are married, correct? The two of you are married to one another?

And you're just hanging out until things open up again. And then when you're done your program, will you move back to Boston? Or will you seek new fortunes elsewhere? Or do you just not know yet? We're going back to Boston. It says here you met working on one of the worst shows you've ever done. Yes. What is that story, Isabel? It was a student production in college and our main stage theater had shut down.

So the theater, the university was using our only theater space. So the student group got exiled to the basement of our student services building, which used to be a bowling alley and was now a conference room. And we were trying to do the show in there. Yeah. And it was just, everything about it was bad. I think like half of my conversations with the director like ended with me in tears. We were, I like, I don't think I ate anything

other than cold pizza and coffee for the entire week. Well, wait a minute. What was the did the show happen to be the famous musical conference in a bowling alley? Because then that could have fit. It could have fit. What was the name of this institution again? This was Salem State University. Salem State University.

Shame on you. I'm going to burn you at the stake, Salem State. That's what you do traditionally with theaters. going to burn you at the stake, Salem State. That's what you do traditionally with theaters. Not only that treat the student productions poorly, but also you had a bowling alley and you turned it into a conference room. Get out of town, Salem State. Give me a break. That's the worst thing you could do to a bowling alley. All right. Well, you both seem like lovely people who don't really have any genuine fights and you're just here to be on a podcast. But supposedly we have some conflict here. Miles, you seek justice.

What is the justice you seek? Izzy will use the living room area as a setup for laptop and various paperwork for classes and shows. Right. Which consume kind of the whole sofa and small little table area that we have in front of said sofa which the the bigger

problem or thing that i i have issue with is we have a desk for her uh and it just generally lays empty not used and then all the sitting area is taken up and it is for me at least a a just a general like point of like this whole room is cluttered and and then that that whole room goes into the kitchen which is the kitchen and dining area your living space is uh is uh compromised it's a it's what you have a dining living kitchen kind of combo which everyone the open plan concept which every property brother in the world says is great but when you live in it long enough you realize no i'd prefer to have a dining room thanks sorry drew and jonathan i love you but no people need doors to close

uh yes i see you sitting at a desk right now miles that is your desk or is this is the desk you're talking about we have a two-bedroom house or apartment and uh this second room i am in right now is my office space right so you took over the second bedroom and turned it into your your podcasting obviously you got a nice mic there also, it's a banjo storage room. This is your Miles den, correct? Den of Miles? Yeah, generally speaking. And Isabel, also known as Izzy, affectionately by you, which is a fantastic nickname, has a desk sort of set up in the corner of the living kitchen dining area and occasionally sits on the sofa and you get mad about it while you sit in your own room by yourself you're thinking about it

yeah don't worry i'm not prejudging you i know there's evidence to come that i have reviewed yes it is a fair point that i have a uh you know a whole office setup and the the you know the desk that izzy has is set up in the sort of combo living kitchen dining area right next to the cat tree you know what let's look at the evidence because it's here in front of me and you're already talking about the most explosive bit of evidence in this entire case which is the incredibly elaborate kitty condo that you have next to your desk i've i'm look i'm a fan of these things you obviously i hope you have a cat because this would be weird if you didn't yeah yes we have two cats you have two cats and what are their names uh liliana and soren liliana and soren and i presume

soren is named after the character i played in minecraft story mode we'll just take that as sure yeah yeah totally good idea good idea john you know my kids like to watch that show minecraft story mode yeah and then i'll hear your voice and i run in and I say, that's Hodgman. That's John Hodgman. And then my son, Oscar, rolls his eyes at me and says, Daddy, why do you always say when you have friends in shows? Well, I don't. Look, it's not my fault you live in Los Angeleseles yeah to the rest of us that's amazing trust me our kids have a name dropping daddy too that's the name of our swing band jesse name dropping so here is that all the well you know i'm gonna give you the opportunity to say you do not wish for these photos to be on the show page at maximumfund.org or on an

instagram account at judge john hodgman on instagram because this is a peek into your private life you've shared with me are you comfortable with sharing this with the public i am yes great so you everyone should go check out this incredible kitty condo because this is not just a kitty condo this is like a metropolis this is like a fritz langs a carpeted fritz langs metropolis for your cats to climb up on and around i've never seen anything quite like it it's taller than i am yeah it's approximately a 12 footer maybe an 18 footer wow wow this is a pretty good desk who's this this photo of this person on this desk here, Isabel? It's Alice Ripley.

She did a show at North Shore Music Theater, and part of the set design was there were, I think, over 100, right, Miles? 100 photos of her. 112. It was for Sunset Boulevard. She played... Norma Desmond. Norma Desmond.

Right. Okay, Alice Ripley is an actor. So you stole this. This is a piece of set design. Yes. That the props master gifted. Or stole and then gifted. There were so many that weren't used.

No one's getting in trouble here. No one except for Salem State University for messing up their bowling alley. Was this just a little funny token or do you have a particular fondness for Alice Ripley? Because she's probably a listener to the podcast. I do have a fondness for her. She was really lovely to work with. Great.

Good answer. And then the desk has just like a light and a little, you know, there are a couple of buckets underneath, I suppose, one for each cat. I don't know what's going on. Why don't you like to work at this desk? Why do you prefer to work at the nice ergonomic chair and some, you know, it's like a desk. How come you don't like to work at it? Some of it's the amount of time. some of it's the amount of time just like especially when i was over zoom it's like eight hours of zoom in a row right and being able to like sit on a couch and lounge is nice

with the couch i can put things like next to me on the couch and on the table right with the desk so much of it's taken up with the laptop and the monitor required to Zoom. Right. That there's now not that much. And like when Miles leaves his office and graces me with his presence, it is nice to sit together with him in the armchair and me on the couch or both on the couch and spend time together. Well, both on the couch seems a little bit problematic, right? Because I'm looking now at some photos of your couch-based workstation and i'm going to say that that you spread out a little bit i'm not blaming but i'm going to say like there are two photos here one is you and one of your cats doing having some productive time on the couch with your laptop open and an incredible copy of bubble by jordan

morris and sarah morgan just happens to be laying out on the, on the coffee table. Very nicely done. Well pandered to this courtroom. Duly noted. And then there's another photo here where the, the spread has, has spread even more.

Now you've got like a, what do you call this? Jesse, this kind of pillow that has a little arms coming off of it. Oh yeah. Like a little, like a little chair pillow kind of pillow that has little arms coming off of it? Oh, yeah. Like a little chair pillow kind of thing. Like a little chair pillow.

Jennifer Marmer, does that pillow have a name? That's not a husband, right? A husband is a long pillow. Really? Yeah. I hate calling it that. But I think that's what I refer to as a husband or boyfriend pillow. Partner pillow. Partner pillow.

Yeah, that's right. It's a partner pillow. Partner pillow. Yeah, that's right. It's a husband pillow, which is weird because, you know, I've been in a marriage for a long time and I've met a lot of spouses. Very rarely would you lean against your husband in this way. Yeah. Unless the husband was like, if it was a high seating area and the husband was standing behind it because if you're both on the same level the husband could potentially have areas of their body that would be compromised by this sitting position yeah it's like this would be you would

be leaning if you were sitting in a field sitting between your husband's legs and leaning back and putting your elbows on his legs or her legs or their legs it kind of reminds me of like on sitcoms when they would show a couple at a lamaze class that's always how the husband was sitting yeah that's right this is your husband this is your husband if they are helping coaching you through natural childbirth or you've fallen down and they're helping you get up. Yeah. I'm going to be honest. Oh, you're doing the breathing.

John, did you know that they don't teach you Lamaze anymore? That was like the number one thing I was excited about, about having a child, was Lamaze class because I'd seen it on so many sitcoms. And I went in there. They don't teach you Lamaze anymore. They don't teach you that patterned breathing. They teach you other stuff. We must have gotten in just under the wire because we learned Lamaze from the most incredibly vibrant and wildly physically flexible 95-year-old woman on the Upper West Side who also coached, I believe,

both of Calvin Trillin's daughters, which is very exciting. Now we're talking. Wow. Not to violate their privacy. I apologize, Calvin Trillin's daughters. Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor. We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also

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great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. So, Isabel, Izzy, if I may, this is no longer a workspace. This is more of what we call a snack nest or a person nest in the second photo. What's going on in this photo? This is over Thanksgiving break, which I'm on right now. And I will admit that I have not done any work since leaving school on Friday. And we've been sitting and each playing on our own switch while watching videos on the TV. So that is how this has devolved. And I think I got up so Lily the cat has claimed the entire couch

for herself well lily the cat is in both of these photos of the couch area and i'm i'm wondering miles whether you have a a partner problem or a cat problem when it comes comes to claiming this furniture seems like lily's in charge here uh that that would be an accurate way to describe it there is an office chair just off camera here that is specifically the cat's office chair wait a minute you mean the office chair that is supposed to be associated with isabel's desk no no there's a third one you have three you three office chairs. And one is just for the cat. Okay. Well, now, all right.

Before we get to your office chair collection, you submitted this evidence. Is that right, Miles? Yes. All right. So in the second photo where the couch is a nice, it's a short sort of chess long couch combo. It is definitely wholly colonized at this point by throw pillows, a husband that is not you, but a pillow, some gaming equipment and a cat. What are you trying to show this court? just that the amount of clutter that is that aggregates there is generally a constant unless i really make a push for like hey i like this this needs to be cleaned off but like what's not

shown in this picture is that table thing is actually a chest with stuff in it well i had a sight out of mind right are you are you such a tidy person that you're nervous about the clutter inside that chest as well no no okay then why did you bring it up i mean the stuff that's in that chest is like games and like board games and some other you know stuff for having people over when that is a viable option and getting at that stuff when there is all the all the clutter on top is a bit much and it is the first thing that you see sort of when you walk in the house right a mountain of clutter and if i go to this wide shot here i can see basically your whole oh that incredible kitty condo is there and then over on the other side of the room this is the full room now i'm also seeing a cat carrier i'm seeing a cat scratching post i'm

seeing some cat toys end of an umbrella stuff on the floor i'm only counting where's the third office chair in this third office chair is in is in my office you also have a bicycle that is um making sure there's no way you're going to get through that door in case of a fire good that that is no longer there oh okay good because i fear for your safety and what's that round thing underneath the bicycle it's another cat toy another cat toy it's a cat scratcher with like a hole in it so they can go in and then pop out at each other. Right. And you have this armchair, which is your chair, I would guess, Miles. That's where you're allowed to sit. This plaid armchair. Generally speaking, yes.

Unless I specifically ask, hey, can I sit on the sofa? Can you make a spot for me? Well, there's no spot on the sofa right now because there's stuff all over it for sure. Correct. on this sofa right now because there's stuff all over it for sure correct what fun youth theater kids are having out there in bloomington illinois this is incredible like just well you know what you're a couple of you're a couple of uh uh you're living the life as a couple of ninks you know what i'm talking about? No income, no kids. But two cats and a lot of games and a good time together.

But a little bit of a mess. A little bit of a mess. Now, I'm a tidy person. Miles, are you a tidy person? Not until relatively recently. What changed in your life that turned you into this um into mr tidy police uh honestly i have no idea it's probably some if i had to if i had to put a finger on it it's probably the voice in the back of my head of my mom telling me that the house needs to be cleaned constantly as if nobody lives in it um

right but it being clean is is one is one less at least for me mental like weight if the if the place is clean it frees up some mental thought in my mind of like all right that's something that doesn't need to be taken care of or miles i want to set you at ease because it's not you're the way you're talking sounds like you feel like you're talking about a very exotic feeling that someone should be apologetic for. But the fact of the matter is that, you know, people have different levels of tidiness and clutter tolerance. out a pandemic in an open plan kitty condo apartment in bloomington illinois and you're on top of your beloved all the time and and they on top of you and not just the fun way these things it adds a level of of extra mental load to to not be able to get at the magic the gathering cards because there's three strata of

other stuff on top of the game chest or whatever so that's okay it's okay that you feel that way the reason or one of the reasons i submitted the case when i did is this is something that i you know the the clutter has been kind of a constant through the first bit of grad school Izzy has done. And I figured, you know what, it's the pandemic. It's, you know, we'll give everybody a pass on this and sort of be more mindful of it all. Izzy went away for the summer to work a a job uh and the house was basically just me and the cats i i was like all right maybe when she comes back and she's more back at school and not doing less work from home you know she has an office and you know a graduate student office and

all all that maybe the clutter will be you manageable and I can deal with it reasonably. But the clutter has not really stopped. She went away to work a show and you had the place to yourself for a while. I see what happened. And you actually sent in some evidence of what the house looked like when you were there by yourself.

And it involves these weird three bridges and a giant revolving platform. You had to tear all that down. Yeah, pyrotechnics and everything. You didn't send in a photo of the house when you had it to yourself. But when you had it to yourself, how did you like it? How did you have it? How did you keep it tidy? Pretty much.

Or as tidy as somebody living in a place will keep things. So, you know, maybe. Miles reorganized all the furniture when I was gone. Here we go. Why am I talking to Miles? Izzy, speak the truth. What happened when you were away? What did you come back to?

You couldn't believe the non-mess you came back to? It feels normal to me like i think that's part of my problem is this amount of mess feels normal and like the house felt lived in when i came back it wasn't pristine all the furniture moved because miles had his brother over and they rearranged everything is it did they move it into the configuration i see now or yes oh okay so what was it where where were things before and did you like it better before I think I liked it the same before before the couch was perpendicular to the wall with the door in it along the line where the door was so it felt more like oh this

is the living room and this is the kitchen right where now it's more open concept so it's really more how much are we diluting ourselves into believing we have two rooms. The only transition between living room and kitchen is the edge of this wall-to-wall brown carpeting. Yeah, that's the other thing that reminds me of the Property Brothers. You know how they always open the plan and add brown wall-to-wall shag? Yeah, I'm going to just tell you both i love you but uh i'm not a fan of this carpeting but i guess you didn't probably wasn't your choice probably

wasn't your choice just not i mean it basically makes your whole living room into a kitty condo it's the same kind of carpeting that they have on a kitty condo. I'm looking at the cat now and yes, she is blending in. The camouflage is working. So how do you feel when, when Miles is, you know, attempting to talk candidly and openly about his emotions of feeling just, how would you describe it, Miles? How does it make you feel? Let me talk to Miles again for a second. When the, when, when you, when you go over to that couch and you see all that stuff on it what does it feel like to you it feels

as if i cannot use the space at all like like you feel shut out you feel shut out of couch time shut out is yeah i guess is is a good way to describe it it's it's just like it feels as if i cannot move everything because izzy will nest with all her work. And it's like, well, you have important graduate school work to do. I don't want to put something where you don't find it or what have you. Do you feel emotionally shut out of that space by Izzy? I don't think so. Yeah, you do. Okay, got it. You you do put it down as i do yeah so noted you got to get

in touch with your emotions here miles let the record show that he is forcing himself to not i'm sorry yes i can tell it makes you uncomfortable is he when you witness me badgering miles to be in touch with his emotions and he says that he feels shut out of the couch literally or more emotionally, I mean, what are you feeling about all of this? I feel guilty and bad like he has a point, but then I also feel defensive. Like, I just want to come home after being at school for literally like 15 hours in a row some days and just sit down on the couch. Right. Do you ever use that desk? I use it sometimes, usually when Miles encourages me.

It's not your go-to? No. Right, okay. Miles, you're a theatrical carpenter. Why do you have your own office? Why do you have your own office? Well, during the pandemic, not having work and moving, you know, midway through the country, it's I use my office and computer set up for hanging out with friends online as well as online organizing. I was using this as a space to do meetings for organizing you know the union organizing stuff yeah yeah well that's valuable work for sure but i mean is he's in grad school

why don't you use the desk that's out in the middle of the kitchen to do your organizing and give her the privacy of that room to do her grad school work that is a valid argument i don't know that that would prevent the sofa from being co-opted as a place to nest is he kind of always has been like this with nesting and just setting up a place like this so is your camera attached to your computer mine no can you give me a little a little view of what's going on in that room so i got uh there's window nice second kitty condo yeah what's another kitty condo there's another kitty condo yeah all right you people have more problems than i realized this one's a 14 footer and you got and you got lily's office chair behind you is he where would you want to

work do you want to take over miles's banjo cave no i just want to work on the couch when it's convenient for me that's what i want i have an office at school but it's grad school so it's probably about the size of this desk and has the worst lighting you've ever seen in it oh you're at the desk now you're at the desk that miles wants to exile you to yes right so okay now i'm seeing another boy this place isn't very large you guys that's your that's your kitchen right behind you yes right okay so you know miles obviously you would like izzy to use the desk that she has if i or if i rule in your favor that's your request correct? That or like, I am not opposed to getting a desk set up or whatever that is conducive to her working in that space

or in a different kind of desk, you know, different kind of chair. I am like, if the work can get done at a desk. Izzy, if you had a different kind of desk, would that make a difference? No. Right, okay. Nice try, Miles. Yeah. Izzy if you had a different kind of desk would that make a difference no right okay nice try miles yeah in his defense miles has spent time and effort making it as nice as possible it's just not a couch it's just not a couch and Izzy when you finish your

grad program you're gonna go move anyway so how far away is that in your future a year I'm in the middle of my second year so in a year and a half a year and a half so you've got 18 months to figure this out to get this sorted so if I were to rule in your favor Izzy what would you have rule? I would prefer that Miles just lets me know when he's feeling stressed about the clutter and we can work on just like cleaning it together. Is that a problem that happens? It feels like I notice that he's tense and then we need to clean. And I feel even though this has happened multiple times, it still feels to me like it comes out of nowhere. I'm not as attuned. And I also just experience paranoia

every day. So it's hard to tell what's in my head and what's... I'm sorry, that's not a fun thing to experience. No, it got better once I could name it. So instead of saying, are you mad at me over and over again? I could just say, I'm feeling paranoid. Are you mad at me? That's a huge improvement. And Miles, are you mad at Izzy? No, it is. This is entirely a, I like, I feel like I cannot use pretty much like 70% of the apartment when it gets that cluttered. Right. And here, I'm just going to ask you one more time. I understand that you feel you cannot use it,

but that feeling of not being able to use it, how does that make you feel, Miles? Not good. Okay, but I mean, give me more, give me more. It feels like a weight. It honestly feels like a mental weight that is like, all right, I am now relegated to the office that I'm in. Yes.

Like, I absolutely cannot go into the rest of the house. How often do the two of you just tidy up your room? The apartment in general? I mean, I try to do a bit of cleaning every day. I'm not talking about cleaning, but tidying. And I noticed you just said I. Izzy, do you ever tidy up yes but less often since being in school gotcha so being in school it tends to be

if Saturdays are free which is an if but if Saturdays are free I'll try to take the whole day and like tidy up and like deep clean the kitchen and vacuum although we got a robot vacuum which has been life-changing. Okay. I think I'm going to go into the kitty condo of my mind, ponder this for a moment. I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Izzy, how are you feeling about your chances? Oh, very poorly. Oh, really? Yeah. I think I always feel like Miles has a point and then I feel guilty for not using the desk more. Like he has put in this time and effort to set it up for me. And I feel like my only counter argument is, but I want it this way. Do your cats always use all the cat furniture that you set up in your apartment?

Yes. all the cat furniture that you've set up in your apartment? Yes. Right now, Soren's on the top, although Lily right now is on the floor because that's where the sun is. We have organized this apartment around the cats. I will admit that. Miles, how are you feeling about your chances?

Not the greatest. I feel as if the argument for, you know, live and let live a little bit is definitely a valid one, especially seeing as I have co-opted a room as an office as well as, you know, our apartment is not terribly large. So the space that would be designated as a desk spot would be not ideal. Miles, Isabel, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests

as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky.

Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close.

Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Judge Hodgman, while we're taking a break from the case, I, I don't know how you feel, I would like to highlight the fact that we're headed to San Francisco. I feel very, very excited about that. It has been a long time since we've done a live show. Truly, one of the jewels in the crown of our touring year has always been our return to Sketch Fest year after year.

always been our return to sketch fest year after year one of the funnest funniest bestest comedy festivals on this planet and this planet is the only one we have judge hodgman sketch fest just celebrated its 20th anniversary i think i have been in every sketch fest since the third one oh my god oh my gosh you're a 17-year-er? Yeah, I think that is actually true. I don't think I'm making that up. I used to work at SketchFest, John. I know. I think we need to get you a special sash.

Do you remember when we were in San Francisco and we were adjudicating a case between two women who were friends and it was about their hairstyle or something and then we learned that one of the women lived lived with a man who liked to form secret societies and everyone in the in the household wore a special sash yeah whenever someone came over they gave them a sash to wear raya get thee to goat manor to make jesse thorn a 17 year Sketchfest sash for him to wear on stage when we appear at the Sidney Goldstein Theater on January 22nd, 2022. Yeah, Sidney Goldstein Theater, 7.30 p.m., January 22nd. Tickets at sfsketchfest.com. And by the way, we need Bay Area cases right now.

So if you're in the Bay Area and you have a case, no case too small, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. And if you're not vaccinated, get vaccinated so you can come to that show, baby. Yeah, it's going to be a lot of fun. Vaxxed up. Other than that, Jesse, I've got nothing going on. David Reese and I are continuing to work on our super

duper secret project. I just, during the break, I told Jennifer Marmor what it was. Oh, wow. And she was very impressed. She was very impressed. And I hope to have some news to share with you all soon, but right now it's still a secret. So I will say that someone who is doing something in this super secret project, a little thing, a little favor, a paid favor is a, is a person named Jonathanathan colton and jonathan colton as you know is one of my dearest friends and collaborators um i've known him since i was 18 years old and uh today is his birthday the date of this of this release is his birthday so i would just like to

say happy birthday jonathan i hope you have a good day i will refuse to call you, text you, or speak to you on this day. I'm sure to forget. But I love you. Anything going on over at the Put This On shop? Oh, gosh. We just had an enormous drop of new items in the Put This On shop, including quite a few pairs of shoes, some cold-painted bronzes of dogs from the turn of the 20th century. You know those kind of Austrian cold-painted bronzes? Of course the turn of the 20th century. You know, those kind of Austrian cold painted bronzes.

Of course I do. Everyone knows. Yeah. You know what we're talking about. I just created a stocking stuffers section and a Jesse's picks section. You can also just click on our latest treasures and you will find all of this new stuff. I mean, there are like several pages of new items that we just got into the store for the holiday season. There's no excuse to shop anywhere else for your holiday gifts than

the PutThisOnShop. PutThisOnShop.com. And you can use the code Vintage Justice. Almost anything ships for free in the United States. So go to PutThisOnShop.com. Let's get back to the case. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict so you know i've talked in the podcast before about how couples often or very rarely have the exact same level of clutter tolerance there's usually you, and upbringing and habit and what clutter you see and what clutter you don't see is very different for everybody. And when you move in together in a small space in Illinois, those things will often come into conflict. And I'm not talking about cleanliness here.

I'm talking about tidiness. I'm talking about clutter, right? Izzy, you say, well, you know, you go in and you do a deep clean of the kitchen and you vacuum or you have your robot vacuum for you. That's great, but that's not tidiness. That's clean, right? And in my home, I have a very low clutter tolerance.

And the person with whom I share my life, she has an extremely high clutter tolerance. And I will often find myself staring at a pair of shoes in the middle of the hallway going, what are those shoes doing there? There's a place for shoes. Now, what we have done is we have over time worked together to identify what are the high priorities and the lower priorities because clutter is a mental stressor for me, as it is obviously for Miles. And Izzy, I know I don't need to tell you about mental stressors because you deal with them yourself. The kind of emotional clutter that surrounds you that makes your mind work overtime and wonder if someone is mad at you. I am not mad at you, Izzy, Miles. I am not mad at you, but I am going to say your house is a mess. I love you, but your house is a mess. At least to me, right? You are living in a clutter situation

that is above my tolerance level. And that is not a judgment, right? Even though this is Judge John Hodgman, that is just, for me, the fact that you have an office chair with wheels on a shag carpet has been basically raising my heart rate for the past 40 minutes like that thing cannot roll around that thing can't roll around i admire you for your kitty condos

because i dream of having one for my cat our cat but i know that if one were in my house i wouldn't be able to tolerate it because i i hate that kind of carpeting and it would be pointless because our cat can't jump can't do anything when i look at your coffee table and when i look at your spread on the on the sofa on the cheslong whatever you want to call it what do you call it is he a couch or a sofa this has always been an issue too between me and the person who i share my life with i call it a couch we call it a couch like when i look at that spread i i can understand why miles walks by that and goes my butt is not welcome on that couch and not only does it offend my my internal sense of tidiness but also i don't feel like I can sit and play switch with my wife.

Because there's a cat or a computer or a husband, another husband. She's having an affair with that pillow. Even though you have a perfectly clean plaid armchair, Miles, that is your chair. And a whole room to yourself. Now, I'm going to say right now, the spatial arrangement in your home, the allotment of space is not fair. It's not fair that you should have your own office, Miles. And then you exile Izzy, who is going to graduate school.

Izzy, who was going to graduate school. So it's unfair because, you know, I thank you for unionizing your peers, Miles. That's really important. But, you know, you're lucky because Izzy's like, I don't want that room. I don't want that room with the banjo in it. Because if she said, yeah, I really could use it, then I would be bound by fairness to say, give that room up, dude. 100%.

But she doesn't want it. She wants that couch. She wants that couch more than anything. She doesn't want that dumb desk that straddles. There's shag carpeting on one side and hardwood on the other side of the desk. You're sitting between two worlds, shoved in between the door and the window and the kiddie condo.

That's not a good place to work. You know, where you work is very personal and where you are productive is very personal. This couch is where it gets done. This is where the learning gets done. This couch is where it gets done. This is where the learning gets done. And my advice to you, and I think this will help both with the tidiness issue that you're facing and will respect what Isabel's workflow is get rid of that desk. It's never going to get used.

Sell it, give it away, get rid of it. I might keep, there was, in one of the photos, things are constantly moving in this home. It makes me nervous. Because in one of the photos of the desk, there was some kind of like productivity caddy next to it, like a file caddy or something. And now that's gone from this other photo.

I don't know if it's there or not. It's there. It was not there and then moved from one room to another. And there's that thing on wheels as well? Oh, yes. And you roll that over that shag carpet. Ugh. Ba-dum-ba-dum-ba-dum-ba-dum.

The wheels go. Ugh. Ugh. Don't know. Don't care for it. I would say whether that's the item or not, get rid of the desk, but put in some kind of separate work chest or productivity chest or, you know, like file, some kind of cabinet for all of Isabel's grad school stuff. Because I don't believe you, Miles. I think you are thinking about what's inside that chest,

that coffee table chest. I think you're thinking about all those games in there. I think that you feel tidiness from the other room, like me. I respect you, but we have to find a compromise here. And I think the compromise is that, Isabel, I think you can have that couch as your workspace, but you need to be sensitive to the fact that the clutter gets on Miles's nerves silently. And you can work to make it less cluttered.

You can work together to tidy the house on a on a saturday morning or a sunday morning and if this is going to be your workspace this couch then i order you to pick it up a little bit and there should be a time when work can be put away somewhere out of sight so you already got all those games in that game chest. So some kind of cabinet, some kind of nice piece of, and I don't want you to go to the Salvation Army. You guys, I'm not trying to trick you into buying a lot of expensive furniture here,

but something that you can close so you could put your stuff away at the end of the workday and have a demarcation between work and sit on the couch and play switch time. Because what's lacking in this room is demarcation. You just have this flow of emptiness. It's not a living room. It's not a dining room. It's not a kitchen. It's just shag carpet, then wood, and then nothing. I'm ordering in Izzy's favor in that the couch is in her workspace.

The desk is going to go away. You're going to declutter to a degree just by getting rid of that desk. It's going to feel like a nicer room to be in. And I am also ruling in her favor in her request that, Miles, you know, express yourself when you're feeling like, hmm. And don't, you got to find a language that is not judgmental and not punitive or anything. Do you know what I mean? Just like, I've got to let you know this visual static is getting to me. Do you mind if I just tidy up a little bit here or whatever?

And understand Izzy. I hope you understand that he's dealing with stuff that he doesn't completely have control over in the same way that your mind is something sometimes races away with you, too. And be respectful of that. So I am ruling in your favor and all of your points, Izzy, but I am also ordering you, as your friend who is not mad at you, you should try to be a little bit tidier and be sensitive to the fact that it's getting on Miles's nerves. You don't have to wait for him to express himself. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Miles, how do you feel? I feel good. It's a fair ruling. And in all regards, that desk is definitely a bit of an afterthought in terms of the layout of the house.

Izzy, how do you feel? I feel good about it. I think getting rid of the desk will allow us to rearrange stuff. And I think the idea of having furniture to put work into will work really well. And now that I have a judge order, it'll be easier to clean up at the end of every day. Izzy, have you ever thought about getting one of those rolling work surfaces like my grandparents used to have over their recliner chairs, where it's sort of like a C shape with a flat table part. And then on the table part, there's big rubber bands. And then underneath the rubber bands are the TV channel guide and some crossword puzzles.

No, but that sounds awesome. Yeah, it would be pretty cool. Miles, Isabel, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Video games. Video podcast. Video games. Video games. Video games. You like them? Maybe you wish you had more time for them.

Maybe you want to know the best ones to play. Maybe you want to know what happens to Mario when he dies. In that case, you should check out TripleClick. It's a podcast about video games. A podcast about video games? But I don't have time for that. Sure you do. Once a week, kickback as three video game experts give you everything from critical takes on the hottest new releases Bye. me, Maddie Myers. You can find TripleClick wherever you get your podcasts and listen at MaximumFun.org.

Bye! That's another Judge John Hodgman case in the books. In just a second, we'll have swift justice. First, our thanks to Twitter user BenjaminWalkup for naming this week's episode. Judge, jury, and extra cushions for

her. Honestly, I like that one, John. I like it too. Yeah. I like it too. It really pushes. I love it. If you want to name a future episode, follow us on Twitter for the opportunity to do so,

at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. While you're there, tweet about the show and hashtag it JJHO. We're also on Reddit at MaximumFun.reddit.com. While you're there, tweet about the show and hashtag it JJHO. We're also on Reddit at MaximumFun.reddit.com. Evidence and photos from this show, including photos of those 75-foot cat condos, are on our Instagram account at Instagram.com slash JudgeJohnHodgman. So follow us there. I don't really have condo.

If I had a cat that could leap, I would probably get one. Yeah. If there was such a thing as a Kitty Marie condo, you would get it. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Okay, here's Swift Justice. Andrew says, my friend doesn't believe in locking the door of a public solo bathroom. Help. What is there not to believe? Does he believe it's not possible? Spare everyone pain and embarrassment.

Lock the door, Andrew's friend. That's it for this week's episode. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org or email Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. No case is too small. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. MaximumFun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Audience supported.