Judge John Hodgman - Judicious Minds

Episode Date: October 16, 2024

Karen brings the case against her husband, Ryan. Ryan has a large piece of art that he would love to display in the living room. But Karen says it "stinks" and belongs in the dumpster. Who's right? Who's wrong? We are on TikTok and YouTube! Follow us on both @judgejohnhodgmanpod! Follow us on Instagram @judgejohnhodgman or visit the show page on the Maximum Fun website to look at this week's evidence.Thanks to reddit user u/mishnak for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com! Judge John Hodgman: Road Court is happening NOW! Get your tickets at maximumfun.org/events.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bill of Jesse Thorne. This week, Judicious Minds. Karen brings the case against her husband, Ryan. Ryan has a large piece of art that he loves. He wants it in their living room. But Karen says it should only be displayed in a dumpster because it's trash. Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. My paintings belong in a gin mill, not in a museum. If this modern crap is art, then just call my paintings beautiful. Don't call them art. Jesse Thorne, swear the litigants in. Can I ask what's going on with you, John,

before I swear the litigants in? Yeah, yes. So, oh, this- I'm a little, so people who are watching on YouTube can see this. Right. We're in the same room today. You're in Los Angeles.

That's right. You appear to be dressed as a- Well, here's the thing, Jesse. Yeah. I'm in Los, I came into town for a lovely wedding. And then I was like, well, let me stay over Monday and I can record in person with my friend Jesse Thorne. This is a treat that we don't always get to enjoy.

Right. Unless we're on the road with that Judge John Hodgman Road Court, max.fund.org slash events. And I was like, oh great. And so we set it all up. And then when I arrived in LA, I realized that I forgot my judicial robes at home. Right.

Luckily we're in the season of scary. So I was able to go to a Halloween store and I'm like, I need some judges robes right away. Right. And they said, well, we don't have any. We have two choices for you, death or plague doctor. Uh-huh. Ha ha ha ha ha.

Now death, death is the ultimate judge. Right. You know what I mean? But it's a little grim. Right. And I gotta tell you something, Jesse, I've always wanted a plague doctor mask. Uh-huh.

And it came with the robe for free. Right. So I'm a plague doctor. You can write it off on your taxes. Yeah. I also forgot my gavel. Right. Which I really, amateur hour here at Judge John OJMAN. On my side, not yours.

Yeah. But as I was checking out, at the point of purchase area, the checkout, they had these pop pops. you know these pop pops? Yeah. These are these little- Little snaps that you might buy. Little snappers. A souvenir store in Chinatown.

That's better than a gavel, I guess. I mean, this is gonna be my gavel today. There we go. That's the sound of a gavel, but I guess maybe I'll put on my glasses so I can do the show. Yeah. All right. Why don't you swear them in while I disrobe?

I honestly thought. Well, not disrobe, but just mask. Karen and Ryan, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling,

despite the fact that the only decoration in his office is a big weird poster that Ken Plume gave him. I do. I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Very kitschy poster. It was a very kitschy poster. Kitschy poster. From my friend Ken Plume, producer of We Got This.

Of a Persian knockoff of ET. Body, it's called, look it up, B-A-A-D-I or B-A-D-I. Anyway, Karen and Ryan, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced when I entered the courtroom? Karen, why don't you go first? Sure. Do you want to hear it again?

Yes, please. All right. My paintings belong in a gin mill, not in a museum. If this modern crap is art, then just call my paintings beautiful. Don't call them art. Okay. It's your turn now, Karen.

I spoke, now you do. Sure. Let's say Andy Warhol. Andy Warhol. In an interview with a magazine. Famous art hater, Andy Warhol. Andy Warhol, well, I mean, you know. Who knows, he said different stuff.

I mean, yeah, right, I mean, controversial. Controversial artist. It took some time before he was fully accepted into the art world, because he was just painting, he was just sort of replicating popular culture, right? They're controversial. And filming flies crawling on naked ladies. That's right. Ryan, what's your guess?

Oh, geez. Um... Daniel, when we're editing this video, do a flip and then just put it on a caption here five days later. I think that the quote may actually be from one of Elvis Presley's unreleased tracks. One of Elvis Presley's unreleased tracks. Was Elvis Presley a painter? My paintings belong in a gin mill is how it began. I know he did karate.

He certainly well, I mean, he was a master of karate. Yeah, I mean, I think that his karate was his art. It was his. Okay. It was a physical painting. Yes. You know, Jesse, I can't remember. We just we're just back now from our Midwestern leg

and it was either in Ann Arbor or Madison. I don't think it was in St. Paul. It was either Ann Arbor or Madison, where there is a plaque outside of the site of a former gas station, where Elvis Presley broke up a fight. Yeah. He was being driven by,

and he saw two guys starting to mix it up, and Elvis Presley was like, this cannot stand. And he got out and he did a bunch of karate poses even. Yeah. And they were like, okay, we won't fight anymore. And Elvis Presley was like, that's right because I know karate. And it's like, no, it's not.

Cause you're Elvis Presley and it's just weird. Yeah, it would be weird to defy the anti-fighting orders of Elvis Presley. Yeah. Anyway, Karen and Ryan, you're both wrong. The correct answer was Edward Lieteg, who was the pioneer of a certain style of painting that had difficulty being taken seriously,

even though it was wildly successful in what we call the mid of the last century. He was a German national who moved to French Polynesia and died at the age of 49 in a motorcycle accident in 1953. His works were highly collectible. And I don't wanna get into details of them yet because it's gonna come out in the case. Highly collectible.

And what was the style of painting? Well, let's just say that with all of his money, he bought himself a villa in French Polynesia and named it, truly, Villa Velour. Villa Velour. It'll all make sense once we hear the case. Who seeks justice in my courtroom? I do, Your Honor.

Karen, you have a dispute with your husband, Ryan, about a piece of art that he wants to hang in the home you share, is that correct? That's right. Thank you. Could you please describe in as much detail as possible what this piece of art is? And feel free to go into great detail. It's a velvet Elvis and it stinks.

I guess that's all we need to know. And you sent in a photo of the velvet. And what we're talking about here, a velvet Elvis, it is a painting of Elvis on black velvet, correct? Yes. And obviously I think folks have put it together that Edward Lee Teg pioneered the art of painting on velvet and specifically started painting local scenes

in French Polynesia for bars and hotels on black velvet, and it became a huge phenomenon in the mid-century. And then people started painting Elvis on black velvet, and it was like two forms of kitsch that go great together. It was the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup of kitsch. This is a famous combination here in Southern California as having been Northern Mexican, having been the Tijuana style.

That's right, absolutely. Go to Tijuana for your affordable dentistry, auto glass, and your velvet paintings. Yeah, right. Okay. Can we take a look at it? You obviously sent in a photo, correct? Right, yes. Let's take a look at it? You obviously sent in a photo, correct? Right, yes. Let's take a look at that. This is definitely Elvis painted on black velvet.

It's falling out of its frame. I don't know who's responsible for that, but I'm gonna say it's a higher artistic quality than I expected. Yeah, it's a pretty compelling rendering. Yeah. And obviously you can check out this image on our show page at MaximumFun.org and as well as on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgeman

on Instagram. This is a later period, Elvis. This is a Las Vegas Elvis. Here, let me ask Ryan, because he's the expert. He owns this velvet Elvis. Ryan, are there depictions of young Elvis on black velvet, or is it, it tends to be later period, it feels like to me. Sort of sequined Elvis.

Yeah, you typically find them, like, if you look for them on eBay, if you see them out in the wild, which is kind of rare, I think, at this point. But if you look them up, they are typically later era, you know, Velt... 68 comeback special era Elvis. Right. Okay, that makes sense. And when did you get this velvet Elvis?

How did it come into your life? So I got this, I was in high school. I want to say it was about 96 or 97, I think. Oh boy, young people. So I've had it since then. I grew up in a very small town. The kind of town where twice a year, the entire town will have like garage sales.

Like everybody just has garage sales one day set aside on a Saturday. And I had been hanging out with a friend of mine from high school all day. And it was kind of getting later in the day, early evening, and we went back to her place. And her parents were breaking down their garage sale with things that hadn't sold. Sure.

And they had this painting. And I saw this majestic painting with a price tag on it that said $5. And I went to her mom and I'm like, I will give you $5 for this. And her mom's response was, just take it, I will give you $5 for this. And her mom's response was, just take it. Just get it out of here. Whoa. So I had been to their place. I had never seen it displayed before. I don't remember if they had ever

had it up before. I think this was the first time I saw it, but I immediately I was like, I must, I must have this. So where are the places that has this curse? Because they obviously want to get rid of it because it has a curse. Yes. So I took it home. I hung it in my bedroom in high school. Yeah. I took it with me to college.

It hung in two different dorm rooms. Sexy. It hung in three, oh yeah, no, it was, yeah. Yeah. It was a magnet. Potential romantic partners would just swoon the moment they saw. Well, the problem is they would see it

and they would no longer be interested in me because they would, you know. God damn, they say. So it was a bit of a curse. But then yeah, every apartment, three different apartments in college I had it in. After college I moved to Chicago, lived in the same apartment for 15 years in Chicago

and it hung there and it's so it's... Where in your apartment in Chicago did you display this treasure? Yeah, my apartment in Chicago was in, it was in kind of a little hallway between the living room and kitchen. It's... Transitional piece. Yeah.

But yeah, the kind of thing that you would come into the apartment and you would immediately see it. Like it was always sort of an area of prominence for obvious reasons because it is obviously quite a conversation piece. Aaron Ross Powell Karen is shaking her head. Let me ask you this question, Karen. When I first asked you to describe this piece of art, you said something, something and it stinks.

You mean that literally, right? Karen Molchanow Yes, I do. Aaron Ross Powell It smells bad. Karen Molchanow It smells bad. It smells bad. Ryan is a smoker. And while he does not smoke inside our shared home, but he does smoke. And he smoked in his apartments where it hung for many years. And it smells how you would expect. What do you smoke? You smoke tobacco? Yeah.

Right. Yeah. It looks and smells like the 70s. Ryan, first of all, I got to get out a pop pop here for a snap judgment, a pop pop judgment. I already need to stop smoking immediately. Okay? It's not good for you. That's great.

Stop it. Stop it already. No good. It's no good and it's not cool And also it's it's stunk up your Elvis So you're talking about at least a dozen years of smoke is in that black velvet and it smells bad, right? 15 years. Yeah, 15 years. All right And so when did it come down you when you started dating Karen you guys have been dating for 10 years? When you started dating Karen, you guys have been dating for 10 years, living together for, married for two, living together for four.

That's what I understood from our conversation earlier. Yeah, so in 2020 when I moved in with her, moved into the place that she owned at the time. And it was a small place, you know, pretty small for two people. And a lot of my stuff just, there wasn't room for it. So it was among the many things that just went into a storage unit for four years. Did you, I mean, first of all, good for you

for not imposing a velvet Elvis into a home that you do not own. She had taken you in. Did you propose to hang it initially in that home? Yeah. Oh yeah. And what happened? And she said no. And what did, what happened? And she said no. And I said, well, okay, this is, you know, I, I, you're letting me move in with you.

This is your home. Um, that's, that's understandable. But yeah, I mean, the plan was always for us to eventually move to a bigger place. Pop up judgment. You're a good guy. Oh, well imagine that it went. Thank you, Jesse. Yeah.

Um, yeah, I did not want to impose my things, you know, where there wasn't going to be room for it anyway. And like I said, I was already putting a lot of other stuff in storage. So it sat in storage unit for four years. And we recently bought a bigger place, the two of us together now. So now that this is our home, this is no longer just her place, this is our place. Congratulations.

Oh, thank you. As I was unloading stuff out of the storage unit, I said, oh, let's revisit this. And she said, she said, let's let someone else revisit this. That's how we ended up here. Well, Karen, you say that you want to put this in a dumpster and indeed you sent in some evidence that says, exhibit B, caption, why the Elvis is a quote, good candidate for the dumpster. Let me look at exhibit B here.

Okay, well, it's two photos. One is the frame seems broken. Is that what you're trying to highlight here, Karen? Tell me about these photos. Those look like the stretchers. Yeah, the stretchers are broken in at least two places that I could see. What are the stretchers?

You see, everyone's talking about stretchers like they know, what are you all, framing experts? That's what the velvet is mounted on. So the frame goes around the painting. That's decorative. But the painting is actually mounted on wooden stretchers. The velvet is stretched across an inner wooden frame. That's how it gets taught.

Exactly. Right, OK, gotcha. So the stretchers are broken. Mm-hmm, and the frame is broken. So it's kind of not in good shape. So it's probably a good idea to have it restretched and have a new frame made. You feel that Elvis has left the building as it were.

It's come to the end of its useful life as a piece of art, right? Yes, and I feel like, you know, hearing the origin story that it might have been garbage for a very long time. Might have been garbage the moment that this cursed thing came into Ryan's hands. That's right. Ryan, was the case of the garage sales like every year they would have the garage sale just to sell off this Elvis to someone else? Like, you just hit every garage in town? Not that I know of, but I would not be surprised if they had had it on more than one garage

sale. Yeah. I think it became garbage the moment it was deaccessioned from the collection of the Chicago Institute of Art. I just happened to scroll down here to exhibit C, which is a chair that Ryan likes. A chair that Ryan likes. And there is a cute dog in this photo too, isn't there? Who's this cutie?

His name is Q. What do you want to say about this chair? It looks a little dated, shall I say. Like, both old and dated in style. How would you describe this chair, Karen? Stinks? It doesn't actually stink, because it is, in fact, brand new. Oh.

This is something that Ryan purchased for our new home without telling me. And it arrived one day. And I don't like it. I think it's pretty silly. You maybe can't tell from the photograph, but it is like of a plush material. I was going to say it looked a little veloury, a little velvety, a little furry. It's a metal frame with basically,

it looks like someone killed a stuffed animal and spread it over this metal frame. And it's also got a mushy ottoman that goes with it. Why are you sharing this evidence of this chair? Because I want to demonstrate that I'm not, I haven't refused any other decor that Ryan has decided to display. Well, you didn't have a choice.

He bought it without your knowledge and just put it there. Fair enough, but we're not here to litigate about the chair because I've accepted it. So your point is, I have accepted your ugly chair. It's time to get rid of your stinky Elvis. Basically, yes. You love Ryan. Of course.

You've been dating for 10 years. So this Elvis has been in your life for a while. What did it feel like when you first saw it? I thought it was pretty stupid. Yeah. But it wasn't up to me, you know, it was his and his apartment, so... Well, you're right, the decor of his apartment was not up to you, but your choice to hug and kiss him was up to you.

Yeah, to do it before Elvis. Yeah. I mean, but you could have looked at this thing and said, this guy's not for me. But you didn't, because Ryan has other qualities. Right. He's more than just an Elvis-haver. What other qualities does Ryan have that you love? Oh, he's really funny.

He's really smart. He's very sweet. He's a great guy. Great taste in art. Well. Well. I feel like if this was Reddit, this painting being up on the wall of a prospective boyfriend,

it would just be all the replies would just say, -"Red flag, red flag, red flag." -"Just images of red flags." Flag, flag, flag, flag, flag, flag. But you saw past it, you saw beyond it. I did, yes. Ryan, how had other people reacted to this painting in the 15 years that you'd had it, or decades that you had it before it went into storage? It's the kind of thing that everybody reacts to.

Most people, pretty positively, most people think it's an amusing piece. It's obviously very kitschy. It's the kind of thing that when people see it, they're, people that know me see it, they say, yeah, that seems like something that you would have, if that makes any sense. I'm wondering if your apartment, before you moved in with your partner, was like a B-52's music video set or Cory Doctorow's house.

Yeah. Somewhere where this kind of kitsch would fit in with a bunch of, you know, atomic coffee tables shaped like amoebas and stuff. Right, I mean, I guess we're trying to figure out just how googie were you. Yeah, so in my old apartment, I cannot say that I had a very specific aesthetic.

It was, well, my old apartment, the living room, yeah, where this was kind of over in a hallway, just past that, it was a couple of movie posters. I don't even remember what they, horror movie posters. I had a lot of- Why does that not take me by surprise? Yeah. Not a stunner.

It's a- Yeah, well, let me guess, Evil Dead 2, Dead by Dawn? No, I think I had, what did I have? Friday the 13th, part three, I had Nightmare on Elm Street. In 3D. Part three. With the knife coming forward.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I had Nightmare on Elm Street, part three. What are the Halloweens? I had the original Halloweens. The Halloween three season of The Witch. I did not have that one, no, I just had the original. My daughter was just telling me about

how good Halloween three season of The Witch is. It's wild. Have you ever watched the Halloween three season of The Witch, Ryan? Oh, God, many times. Yeah, obviously. It's a masterpiece. Yeah.

Obviously. No Michael Myers in that one. No, it's a different storyline. They were trying to turn it into an anthology series, different. And then it didn't work, did it? No, yeah, nobody saw it. And then for the fourth one, they just brought Michael Myers back. Aaron, let me ask you this question.

Hearing me and Jesse and Ryan talk about Halloween 3, Season of the Witch, does it get sexier? ALL LAUGHING Three white guys talking about kitschy horror movies? Is it very exciting? I would like to take the Fifth Amendment. I think that's fair. Ryan, it says here that you also have a wall of Taylor Swift.

Yes. So that, the Taylor Swift wall is kind of, it's kind of two separate things, I guess maybe three. One is because at one point she had said, well, can't you just put Elvis up in your room? And I said, well, there's no room because that's where Taylor Swift is gonna go. And I've put all that up now since then.

And by Taylor Swift, you're talking about your collection of Taylor Swift. Well, let me take a look at the photo and we can all take a look together. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, it's a- What I'm seeing, describe, tell me what you're seeing, Jesse.

What I'm seeing here is a display that features about eight Taylor Swift record albums, LPs in frames, surrounding a Taylor Swift poster, sort of Leroy Neiman style Taylor Swift poster, speaking of anti-art artists. Then below that, two needlepoint wall hangings, one of which says,

all's fair in love and poetry, and one of which says, a lot going on at the moment. Those are Taylor Swift parables, right? Aphorisms? I presume the one that says, give me the chocolate and nobody gets hurt is at the dry cleaners. Are those Taylor Swift lyrics, Ryan,

or what's going on there? Okay. Yeah, those are, yeah. Forgive me. Do you love Taylor Swift or do you love Taylor Swift? Is this sincere or ironic? No, this is very sincere. Yeah.

Karen, do you confirm that? I do. Okay. Yeah, the fact that we just bought a home is the only reason that I am not spending $1,500 to go see her on tour because I cannot afford it right now. I would not spend that much money on anybody else that is around right now.

It is a genuine love for her. It is also just sort of, like I said, the other thing about this display here, like I said, it's just sort of, and the way it relates to the Elvis, I think a little bit is, the fact that just music is a very big part of my life. I mean, I go to a lot of live music

that's kind of one of my favorite things to do. I mean, three quarters of my wardrobe is just shirts that I have bought at concerts, at shows. So like I said, the Elvis, the complication of it is that it's not just I, you know, I do like how kitschy it is and kind of how silly and, and, and, and fun it is and how it's kind of, like I said, kind of a fun conversation piece. It is also, you know, I, I like Elvis. Like he's absolutely, he's not my favorite, but, but I like Elvis a lot.

I think he's a really important musician and like, isn't it just music's always been kind of a really big part of my life. You know, my, my You don't just love Elvis. Ironically, you actually love Elvis. Elvis isn't his favorite though. His favorite is Paul Anka. Karen does, does Ryan love Elvis or love Elvis?

Does he sincerely? I mean, here's the thing, Karen, because I have to rely on you, because your beloved is, I'm looking at him here on the screen, and he's got kind of longish hair anyway. I mean, I can't quite tell how long your hair is, but you're wearing chunky glasses, kind of longish hair. You're wearing a T-shirt with, I guess it's a hoodie over it, but it almost looks like a lime green cardigan.

And you know, it's Halloween's coming up. This guy looks like he's dressed as Ghost of the 90s a little bit. And so I'm just trying to figure out. You know. We can't see what's on that t-shirt from this distance, but I presume it says Reservoir Dogs. Yeah. No, it's actually, it's Green Day.

Okay, fair enough. All right. So Karen, you will affirm that when Ryan says that he loves something, he's not being 90s sarcastic loving of bad things, but he actually loves the good things that are Taylor Swift and Elvis. Because I agree with you,

Taylor Swift and Elvis are genuinely good. Yeah. I don't think I've heard him listen to very much Elvis, but he has mentioned outside of the context of the, like when an Elvis song comes on the radio and I'll be like, I don't know. And he'll go, no, what do you mean? The song's great. So I think he does. Does he give you a long monologue about the history of the song and its importance in culture

and where Elvis was in his career at that time? No. Usually no, no. No, no. No. Ryan, Karen owned the home where you first cohabitated. Now you're married and you're living in a home together. And do you co-own that home?

Yes. You each have a financial stake in the home that is equal, right? And as you're fusing your lives together, and your belongings, is there anything of Karen's that belongs in the dumpster? Not that I can think of no. Um, I mean, and like she said before, you know, her first her first home was always supposed to be kind of a starter home, like, there isn't a lot we've actually No, I mean, and like she said before, you know, her first home was always supposed to be

kind of a starter home. Like there isn't a lot. We've actually, I know there's more evidence that we'll get to later, but there, she, I have far more things to put on the walls than she does. No, there isn't anything that belongs in the dumpster, but there also isn't a lot. I would like to get some things.

You would like to contribute some decor to your home. Yeah. And do you feel like that that you're you're locked out because he's got more Taylor Swift stuff to put up or what? Not completely. But I do. We have talked at where he has mentioned things like, oh, I think I want to put some of my posters over here.

And then I think I want to put, you know, some of this stuff over here. And then I feel like, well, wait a minute, I need, I've got some things in mind that I want to get that I don't have yet. Yeah. But when you have brought that up, I've said, oh, okay, cool. Like I have no objection to that. And I cannot think of anything that you would put up just knowing you have an objective.

We have exhibit E here, which are some posters that are not hung. One of them is a poster for, it says North Lake Shore Drive, 1990, like a watercolor. And then there's a picture of a dog wearing a bowler hat with a monocle. May I presume that this dog wearing a bowler hat with a monocle is yours Ryan? No, that is

Wow Holy cow. He also has a pocket watch being worn as a pocket square and he's wearing one of those like Military medals around his neck like some sort of Viennese royalty Yeah, or a wampir Karen Karen, tell me about this dog. Oh, the head of his walking stick is a cat's head. Yeah. Tell me about this guy, Karen. Who is this dog, and what does this piece of art

mean in your life? Yeah. I call it the mystery dog. Yeah. Sure. And why wouldn't you? And it's actually, it was a gift from my brother. There was a tabletop game that has a whole deck of cards that have paintings of really whimsical and fantastical things on them and you know the idea of the game is you put some cards down you have to describe the card without Really and get it getting other people to guess the card you're talking about

and I this was always my favorite card and Yeah, I talked about it for years and how much I liked it and everybody knew that that was the one I picked whenever I played it. Oh so last year for Christmas my brother surprised me with an enormous print of the mystery dog. Wait, forgive me. I have to go back. So how old were you when you were playing this card game?

And what is the name of the card game? I don't mind buzz marketing it. Sure. I don't. It's called Dixit, I think. D-I-X-I-T. Right. Not Dictown on Hulu, co-created by David Reese and John Hodgman. Dixit, I think. D-I-X-I-T. Right.

Not Dictown on Hulu, co-created by David Reese and John Hodgman? Dixit, okay. I misheard for a second, got it. Yeah, and no, this is just in the last, you know, three to five years. You've been playing Dixit, so this is not a teenage obsession,

like Ryan's teenage obsession. How large is this dog wearing formal clothes? teenage obsession like Ryan's teenage obsession. How large is this dog wearing formal clothes? Yeah, how big is your mystery dog? I think it's 24 by 36. Pretty sizable. How big is Velvet Elvis? Bigger than that.

Little bit bigger than that, not much. Oh wow. Yeah, it's real big. Ryan, what do you think about this mystery dog? I think he's great. I, this, this, when her brother got her this, I had, I had, I had seen the picture before because when she was playing this board game

with, with her brother and with her friends, you know, several years before, she had sent me a picture of it. And I was like, oh my God, that's great. Look at this dog. Just look at this dog. Look at, look at it. This is an amazing picture. When, when was like, oh my god, that's great. Look at this dog. Just look at this dog. Look at it, this is an amazing picture. When her brother gave it to her, I was not upset about it at all.

I was like, that's great, we have to hang that. This was a piece of art that enhanced your love for Karen rather than a piece of art that you love Karen in spite of. Oh no, yeah, no, I very much like this thing. John, you're more of a cat guy, but I think I could help explain. So dogs rarely wear any clothes at all. Oh.

Much less formal garb. Oh, really? Yeah. They're rarely invited to state dinners. I always imagined that most bulldogs were bowler hats and smoked cigars. I understand why you would think that. And that they wore tight sweaters with turtlenecks,

and they walked down the street going, yeah, I'm going to go beat up a cat. Yeah, you're thinking of the ones that you've seen depicted in velvet paintings. Oh, OK, my mistaking. Have you considered having the velvet cleaned, Ryan? I mean, it stinks. Oh, absolutely, yeah. I mean, it stinks. Oh, absolutely, yeah.

I mean, the fact that the frame is, it's out of the frame, the stretcher's broken. It's, yeah, I mean, it's been, it was in my apartment for 15 years and it's been in storage for four years now. Yeah, no, if we were gonna, if this does go in my favor, I would definitely wanna have it cleaned,

have it repaired. And where is your proposal for hanging it in the apartment? Well, I think it should go somewhere in the living room. We've got a much bigger living room space now that we did at her old place. Um, I mean, I honestly think I'm looking at Velvet Elvis and I'm looking at the mystery dog here, and I'm thinking, how well do these two things

complement each other? Let's not get ahead of ourselves. You think I haven't thought about that already? You think I haven't thought about that already? You think I haven't thought about that already? Fair point, fair point. They could live together in some sort of nightmare room. Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

I haven't been, Chicago has some sizable apartments. Do you have a nightmare room, Karen, in your condo? No, not exactly. Not yet. Not yet. And you're saying that there's no room in the Taylor Swift, in your office on the Taylor Swift wall for Elvis?

There isn't, no. Like physical room or emotional room? Well, Elvis is four feet long. Yeah, physically there is not the space for it. Just with the layout of the room and where the window is and the closets, there's, there's, the Taylor Swift wall would have been the only wall that had the space and she already had to go there. So if Taylor Swift asked you to get rid of velvet Elvis, what would you say? I think I, I, that would make me look at her a little differently.

Honestly, you would tell Taylor Swift. No. Yeah. Karen, is he telling the truth or is he being the ghost of the nineties irony? I don't know. I think he might be... He would give it some serious thought at least. I think I would say, well, look, Taylor, let's at least talk about this.

Taylor Swift lives in a world far beyond irony. I know. It's a very different... She's dating a football player. Yeah. It's a very different vibe. Ryan, you've lived without Velvetva Delvis for four years. Correct.

Velva Delvis was in storage. Velvis. Velvis, if you will, thank you, and we will. Tell Karen how you felt for those four years when Velvis wasn't in your life. I mean, tell me too, but tell Karen. I mean, it definitely felt like something was missing. You know, there was this thing that had been with me,

my, you know, like I said, my entire adult life. It was, like I said, it's a piece that I really like, that I really was very mean. Well, you've made these arguments already, Ryan. I understand that. I want you to focus on that emotion. Picture Velvus in the storage container, in the dark. It makes me a little sad to think about him sitting there alone in the dark, in isolation.

I tried to get out to the storage unit as often as I could, check on things. We had things to get there. We kept Christmas decorations there. And every time I would see him, I'd think, you're coming home soon, buddy. Thank you. Thank you very much. How does it make you feel to picture Karen, your wife,

gazing through her mind's eye at velvet Elvis in a storage unit saying, we're never ever, ever getting back together? It's hurtful. Has your attitude towards Velvice ever changed, Karen? No. Let me ask you. Picture velvet Elvis in the dark, in the dumpster. With like a can of crushed tomatoes splattered on him.

Maybe the bones of a fish. Maybe the bones of a fish. A banana peel, all the classic trash. Yeah, exactly. Also, I want you to picture mystery dog in his bowler hat with his monocle looking in the dumpster going, I win.

I see you laughing and smiling. How does that make you feel? Another victory for the ruling class. I mean, I wouldn't delight in it being destroyed. I just don't want to look at it all the time. Or smell it. Or smell it, importantly. Would you accept it in Ryan's office,

knowing that it's there? Yes. You would accept it. That's a pretty good compromise being proposed there, Ryan. I have to say, why, I mean, why can't you find room in your office? I'm only seeing one wall of Taylor Swift memorabilia. I would imagine that if it's a full room, unless it's what you call a nightmare closet

or what do you call it, a demon room? Yeah. Anyway, there are probably other walls. Unfortunately, like I said, just the layout of the room where the closet is, where the windows are, there are not. I will say though, again- Does it have a ceiling? Can you put them on the ceiling?

It does have a ceiling. I suppose I could put them on the ceiling. That's, please no. I'm gonna take the mirrors down. Yeah, see, this is gonna be the reaction here. And that Lionel Richie song, Oh, What a Feeling, Velvice on the Ceiling.

Let me ask you, what's the thing you dislike about Velvice the most? Is it, and it's a three-part question. Option one, it stinks. Option two, it literally stinks. Option two, it literally stinks. Option three, it symbolizes Ryan's inability to grow up and put childish things behind him and move on with his dual life together

in a home that you share. I'll remind you you're under Fakos. I know. I have to genuinely say number two, it literally stinks. It literally stinks. Really? That's the thing that most annoys you about Velvice. I have not put very many childish things behind me either. What is your velvet Elvis? What is your velvet Elvis? Text it to Jennifer Marmor. Ryan, you give it some thought. I'm gonna go into my chambers.

I'm gonna consider my verdict. I'll be back in a moment for the answer and my decision. Here's some newlywed gay music. Dun dun dun, dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. He's rise, says Judge John Notchman exits the courtroom. Wow. Ryan just turns a card around and it says, in the butt. Oh my God. turns a card around and it says, in the butt. RYON CERVONE-TRUJILLO Ryan, how are you feeling about your chances in this case?

I feel good about my chances of not having to throw it away. Karen, how are you feeling about your chances? Given that we're discussing techniques for fixing up. Velvice, not feeling too good. Okay, well, have you decided, have you sent something to our producer, Jennifer? I have, yes. Okay, well, we'll see what Judge Hotchman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

(*pounding on door*) Judge Hotchman, we are taking a quick break from the case. Low ticket alert. Low ticket alert. Do you hear that, Jesse? I did. I could tell that you were operating a radio by the fact that you put a finger to your ear.

I'm getting a low ticket alert for our Judge John Hodgman road court tour in Turner's Falls, Massachusetts. That's Western Massachusetts where I spent a lot of my time growing up. You may have read about it in Vacationland. And if you want to see me there and you want to see me there, and you want to see Belmonti, and you want to see Jesse and Jennifer and everybody, you better get your tickets now because it's a low ticket alert. It's about to sell out. You already missed out on Brookline, Massachusetts, everybody. Sold out. But we do have shows coming up as well in Portland, Maine, and Burlington, Vermont.

And where else, Jesse? Well, in January and early February, we are headed to Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Oregon, and of course, Los Angeles, alongside Jordan, Jesse Goh, which is a show I've heard is pretty good. That'll be the last show of this tour. Exactly. All of that information is online at MaximumFun.org slash events. We have been having such an awesome time on the road.

I had such a nice time in Madison, Wisconsin. Yeah. Beautiful day, 78 degrees outside. Gorgeous, gorgeous. I went down to the lake. Blue sunny skies. Went down to the lake, FaceTimed with my family. Yeah.

Took a little bicycle ride, went to some nice vintage shops, bought myself a vintage Chris Mullin t-shirt. Wow, amazing. It was just a, it was the, we had the nicest time. And then of course, in Minnesota, we, I got to pet Cappy Baras. You know, you know where I had a nice time, Jesse, on tour? On stage.

Yeah. Presenting comedy, song, justice, and companionship, and friendship with you and to all of the audience members and all of the wonderful places. Every show is different, every show is a surprise, even to me, and I couldn't be more excited to get back out there and hit Burlington, Massachusetts, my home Commonwealth,

Maine, my adopted state, and then in January, all the other places, the West Coast, Vancouver, Los Angeles, Seattle, Portland, Oregon, and soon to be announced San Francisco ScratchFest, giving you a heads up, Seattle, Portland, Oregon, and soon to be announced San Francisco scratch fest. Giving you a heads up, watch this space, because tickets will go and they are already disappearing at maximumfun.org slash events. So please get on over there.

Do we need disputes? Yeah, we need disputes for all of those places and of course everywhere. But if you are specifically in those northeastern places, which is to say Burlington, Vermont, Portland, Maine, Turner's Falls, Massachusetts, and Brookline, Massachusetts, or environs thereof, please go to maximumfun.org slash JJHO,

submit your cases, and let us know in that submission that you are near one of those places. We always need disputes. Often we need disputes right up to showtime. Yeah. Like, we'll be locking them in a few days in. We'd love to lock them in early, so submit them now at maximumfun.org slash JJHO.

It's a really nice time being on the show. You can come hang out backstage. Again, full access to our crudités. Yeah. And you hang out with Jennifer Marmer. She shows you how to do it. You don't have to be worried about it. It's really fun and easy.

Yeah, we all have a good time together. We have a great time on stage. And no case is too small. So go to maximumfun.org slash JJHO to submit those. And make sure to get your tickets to all of those places. Sincerely, if you like cherry tomatoes, you can have all of my backstage cherry tomatoes because I hate them.

And I want to drop a plug this week. We've been laying off plugs other than for our tour because we've been on tour. Right, we've been on tour. There is an interview right now in the feed of the Bullseye podcast, Bullseye with Jesse Thornwood, Andre 3000 about cast. Incredible conversation.

Of which I'm really proud, he's one of those people that was at the top of the list for literal decades now. And he couldn't have been lovelier or more fascinating. Talking about making flutes and when you're too old to rap and all kinds of, and what kind of art you should make as you get older and how you should appreciate art, new art as you get older, that were profoundly moving to me. And he's just such a charming, fascinating guy.

And we also talked about outfits. If anybody's worried, we didn't talk about outfits. Don't worry, we talked about outfits. If you want to hear Jesse Thorne's dream come true as he talks to Andre 3000 of OutKast, go to Bullseye right away and listen to all of the incredible conversations that you've had.

I mean, I've said it before and I'll say it again. I have been introduced to more artists, creators, musicians, comedians who have thoroughly enriched my life. I've heard them first talking to you on Bullseye. I'll tell you this. We have an interview with the rapper Mavi. M-A-V-I, wonderful, brilliant young rapper.

That might be better than the Andre 3001. It's either just out or just about to come out on the Bullseye feed. Wow. He is one of the most eloquent and fascinating people who has ever been on Bullseye with Jesse Thorne, Mavi, just a really incredible guy. I hope that sometime he will come join us

on Judge John Hodgman. That would be lovely. Because of what a brilliant and interesting man he is. But I would recommend, go search out Bullseye with Jesse Thorne. If you're not an Andre 3000 person, find somebody that you love and hit that subscribe button. Download that episode, see what you think. You will. Very proud of the show.

You will find someone you love. Hey, Jesse, how old is too old to rap according to Andre 3000? It has mixed feelings about it. I'm 53. Am I just under the wire? Great. My name's Judge John and I'm here to say, check out an episode of Bullseye every day. Let's get back to the case. ["Bullseye"]

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. Dog I ride. Monocle and a hat. Do-do-do-do-do-do. Dog I ride, walking still with a cat. Do-do-do-do-do. He's a mystery dog, and I'm in love with that.

That's the song, Mystery Dog, by Elvis Presley. I just assumed it was Velvet Elvis by Weirdo Yankovic. All right, we're back from the break. Before I go into my verdict, we have to finish the game show portion. Ryan, I asked you, what was Karen's equivalent of Velvet Elvis? Do you have an answer?

I do. And I want the answer and Ryan, it has to be one thing. Are you ready to reveal it? Yes. What is it? I think it is her collection of Minnie ears from Disney World.

Minnie Mouse ears from Disney World is on the board. Karen, hang on, Jennifer Marmer. Well, she's not on mic, right? I can be. Okay, Jennifer Marmer, Karen sent you her velvet Elvis. What did she write? She wrote, world of Warcraft, wrath of the Lich King signed poster.

Bum, bum, bum, wow. You got the Lich King signed poster. Boom, boom, boom, wow. Whoa, you got the Lich King's autograph? The man himself. You met the Lich King? Unfortunately, your answers did not match up. You did not get the Ceramic Leopard or the Trip to French Polynesia to visit the manor Villa Velour of the creator of velvet paintings.

But I do have instead some parting gifts for you, which are judgments and orders. All right, here's the thing. I have become convinced in talking to both of you that despite your 90s attire, you do have sincere preferences and affection for each other, obviously, and also for certain things in your life. And what I've become convinced of is that Ryan's affection and connection to Velvet

Elvis is as sincere and heartfelt as Karen's aversion to it is. And Karen did not take option three, which I extended to her, which I thought, I mean, I was, this is what we call forwarding the crux, which is that she thinks that the big problem with Velvus is that it literally stinks as opposed to it symbolizes Ryan's inability to leave childhood behind and in fact, and start to fuse his life in a new way in a new home with you,

which I mean, you know, that's kind of what I thought was going on here. But you didn't choose that. If you had chosen that, my verdict might have been different. I couldn't lie. I couldn't lie to you. I appreciate it. And now, and you know, now that I've gotten the chance to know both of you a little bit more and I know about the weird video games that you both like, but I mean to say, like, I believe that there is,

that your aesthetics are more aligned than not, shall we say. And yet that there is this outlier. There is this Velvus. Was I thinking that Velvus and Mystery Dog should sit side by side in a place of prominence to represent the synthesis of your relationship as it has grown? Yes, I did consider that very seriously.

And I know that that would make Ryan very happy, but I am not convinced of two things. One, that it would make Karen happy at all, and B, that that thing isn't gonna smell. And the smell of it is truly the most compelling element of this case. I doubt very much after 12 to 15 years of smoking in front of this velvet that it's ever gonna smell okay.

I don't think there's enough Febreze in the world to get to a point where Karen's not gonna be able to smell it. And that is because if I may, Ryan, I'll tell you a little story. There is another guy who sort of lived an ironic life in the 90s, another guy who dabbled in kitsch, and another guy who smoked

cigarettes in the nineties because he thought it was cool and that somehow he was invincible and that guy was your judge John Hodgman and I'll tell you what I'm gonna let you keep velvet Elvis in your life on the condition that you freaking give up smoking because that's kids stuff that has got to go away at your age. Sorry. I loved smoking cigarettes. It definitely was cool, but it is the worst. It is a bad, bad thing.

And that is the one childish thing I'm going to ask you to set aside. As you move forward into adulthood. And as far as velvet Elvis is concerned, if you do that and you invest in repair of the stretcher, not to make Karen happy, but to respect Elvis. And what's that? Respelvis. Yeah. Respelvis.

And you get it cleaned so that maybe it'll smell fine. If at some point you are able to get it cleaned to the point where Karen's like, it doesn't smell that bad, maybe he can be next to mystery dog in the den or the living room, that's fine. But if Karen still smells that smoke, it's gotta be in your office.

Taylor and Elvis must find peace together. If it's not Taylor, something's gotta come down in order to put Elvis in there. As far as the rest of your decor, my recommendation is measure the wall space, get the square footage, divide it evenly. Each person gets half of that wall space to do whatever they like.

But velvet Elvis has to be in your special place until such time as Karen decides it doesn't stink anymore. And maybe, maybe on her, it's her choice, but maybe she can, you know, Jesse, in some cultures, when judges pronounce sentence, particularly when it's a harsh one, they cover their heads and they, they put like sunglasses on or they cover their eyes. And so before I pronounce sentence, I'm going to put my plague doctor hat back on and obviously cover my eyes. People can see this on the YouTube that I'm not making it up.

You also probably have my audio is now muffled because I'm talking through a plague plague doctor mask, but here's my, here's my sentence. I order that velvet Elvis be restored and, and, uh, and taken care of and given a place of prominence within somewhere within Ryan's office where it belongs. This is the sound of a gavel. You get up into a girl's face, you know, very close. And you say, yeah. Yeah!

And it blows her hair straight back. You know. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as the plague doctor exits the courtroom. Where was I? I just came. I feel like I've been dreaming. Where am I?

In Los Angeles? How did I get here? Karen, how are you feeling? Pretty good. I think that's good and fair. And I'm excited for Ryan to stop smoking most of all. Ryan, are you ready for this? I mean, I'm ready to quit smoking. I mean, I've ready to quit smoking.

I mean, I've wanted to for years. We actually talked about it recently. Yeah, talked about it very recently about like, look, it is time for me to put a serious concerted effort into this. And yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's costing me a lot of money. I am not getting any younger. Like, yeah, no, it's something I should have, in a world where I can't go back and say

I should have never started. It's definitely something that I, like I said, have thought about a lot recently that I need to put a real serious effort into. Well, Ryan, you'll be glad to know I got a dry cleaner recommendation that's going to clean Elvis right up. Rave Fabricare. real serious effort into. Well, Ryan, you'll be glad to know I got a dry cleaner recommendation that's gonna clean Elvis right up. Rave fabricare.

All right. Unbelievable. Un-breath-taking work at rave fabricare. Karen, Ryan, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. In just a second, we'll have swift justice.

But first, thanks to Redditor Mishnak. Mishnak. Thank you, Mishnak. For naming this week's episode, Judicious Minds. We can go on together with judicious minds. Judicious minds. You know what? I like that song.

That's a great song. You know what? I like Elvis. Wow. There's some Elvis that I like. Oh, boy. Wow. I mean, I'm here with Ryan on this one.

The phantast of praise. No, there is Elvis that I like. For example, I do like that song, Suspicious Minds. Yeah, it's a good one. Mystery Train is good too. If you want to watch this episode, you can do so on YouTube. Just search for Judge John Hodgman.

Smash those like and subscribe buttons. Smash, smash, smash. And I dare say, smash the share button. Smash that share button. Send it to somebody. Leave a comment even. You can also find us on TikTok and YouTube at JudgeJohnHodgemanPod, where there's a lot of fun stuff.

You want to see some videos of me eating animals? All that Capybara footage is over there on the visual social media, the YouTube and the TikTok. And, John? Yeah? If you follow us on Instagram or on TikTok... I do.

...or on YouTube... I do that too. I've got great news for you. Tell me. You're gonna see the video of me meeting Capybaras. Can I tell you something? Yeah. You're talking about when we visited Sensible Safari.

Sustainable Safari. Excuse me, Sustainable Safari, which is a incredible animal encounter area within a mall in Maplewood, it's the Maplewood, it's the Maplewood Mall. Yeah, shockingly margin pleasant. And you went to have the Capybara experience. I did.

I got to enjoy some goats and some Coati Mundis and stuff, but I had to leave before you petted the Capybars. So I haven't seen you burst into tears as you pet those Capybars. I can't wait to see this video. Where do I go? John, there were baby Capybars. I knew that as you pet those capybara. I can't wait to see this video. Where do I go? John, there were baby capybaras. I do know that there are two baby capybaras.

Their names were Potato and Patato. Yeah, and then there was Uno, the dad capybara. The mom capybara was keeping to herself. Her name was Joan. But Uno was a real ham. I can't wait to see that footage. Where can I see it? At Judge John Hodgman Podd on your various social medias.

YouTube, TikTok, you know where to go. I also want to look. We have a five-star rating to thank this week. But I want to thank Quimby Mouse from Reddit. Oh. There was a post on a subreddit that I shan't name. OK. But suffice it to say that this subreddit is a toxic impulse.

Oh. It was about a series of television commercials that starred Justin Long. that I shan't name, but suffice it to say that this subreddit is a toxic impulse. It was about a series of television commercials that starred Justin Long. Oh, my friend. And someone said, in retrospect, the PC guy looks like someone who would actually help you if you had a problem. There's a lot of talk about how the PC guy

was more sympathetic than the other guy. And that person, Quimby Mouse, replied he does and linked to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Wow, thanks Quimby Mouse. Yeah, so thanks to Quimby Mouse and the Mindtaker who replied to Quimby Mouse, among others. And thanks to everyone who recommends the Judge John Hodgman podcast, whether it's on Reddit, on your own social media,

or elsewhere, such as in real life, it means a lot to us. And by the way, Justin Long will help you out in a problem. Yeah, Justin Long seems like a really good guy. He's a really nice guy. He's a really terrific fella. But thank you, Quimby Mouse, and thank you.

I have here a brand new member of the Five Star Club over there on Apple Podcast. Five Stars from Justions, J-S-T-Y-O-N-S, they wrote, I have been listening to this podcast since it first came out. It's the kind of thing you can listen to for over a decade and not get tired of it. Never fails to be funny, and there's a surprising amount of wisdom mixed in. Thank you, Justions. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, why don't you go and leave a review if you care to.

It helps people find the podcast. And go over to Pocket Casts, where you can leave a review now too. If that's where you listen to your podcast, leave a review there. Or simply leave a review by talking to a friend or sharing one of our social medias or leaving a comment. All of this stuff not only gives me something to do and read

and feel better about myself, but also it really does help get the show out there and help people discover the show, which is really, really great. So thank you. Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. This episode engineered by Max Fabian at Tightrope Recording in Chicago, Illinois.

Thank you to Max. Chicago, Illinois. What a to Max. Chicago, Illinois. What a cheerful man Max is. Indeed. Made us feel special. Indeed. Our social media manager is Natti Lopez. The podcast is edited by AJ McKeehan.

Our ever capable producer is Jennifer Marmer. Our video editor is Daniel Spear. Now let's get to Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment. All right. Sock quirky 7056. Now, let's get to Swift Justice where we answer small disputes with quick judgment. Alright. Sock quirky 7056. Well, let's get their last name right.

7056. My sister pronounces the word narrator with four syllables like narrow-rator. Narrow-rator? She insists that this is how it must be pronounced. Please help. Well, I don't know the name of your sister, Suck Quirky 7056. Maybe it's Donna 7056 or Teresa 7056. Sure.

Sally 7056. Sally 7056. All my love goes out to the entire 7056 family, but your sister's wrong. It's narrator. It has three, now I'm saying a weird narrator, narrator, narrator. That's what I say, narrator. I say narrator too.

And I would never say narrarator. Sorry about that, sis. Speaking of words. Oh, great transition. I wanna hear some more disputes about language. We haven't done one of those in a while. Does your loved one use a word or a phrase that you cannot stand?

Does a sibling use a word? You know what phrase I hate? What's that? Use your words. Oh yeah. You know that pops up a lot online. You know what I can't stand? No. When like school administrators or like childcare people call children kiddos. Oh yeah. Right. Oh, I can't bear that. Here you want to, you want to, you want to hear something I can't stand? I'm gonna set the internet on fire right now. Okay. There are a lot of people who like this word, a lot of people who don't.

You give something to someone. You don't gift them something. Oh, yeah. A present, I received this present. It was not gifted to me by whatever. It's awkward and it's wrong. If you have a dispute with me or someone else about that phrase or any other,

obviously send it in maximumfund.org slash JJ HO I will say it again, maximumfund.org slash JJ HO I think we also need some disputes in New England, right, Jesse? Indeed, we are headed on the road court tour to, of course, Burlington, Vermont, Burlington, Vermont, Western Massachusetts. We're headed to, we are headed to Brookline, Massachusetts. My hometown. And we need, and to Portland, Maine as well.

We need your disputes in all of those places or wherever you are in the world. Go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO. And if you're in the Northeast, make sure to let us know if you are within driving distance of one of those places, because we might need to feature you on stage in the Judge John Hodgman Road Court Tour. We might just need to feature you.

And I'll say again, I mentioned this before, big hometown show in Brookline, Massachusetts at the Coolidge Corner Theater, where I worked as a teenager, one of my favorite places in the world, and yet it is sold out. There's no way to get in. No way at all. Unless you have a dispute that we choose to feature on stage,

then you're gonna... Not only do you get into the show, you get VIP treatment. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you're past the velvet rope. Wherever you are, whatever your dispute, it's what makes the show go. MaximumFun.org slash JJHO to submit those disputes. And of course, I have to say MaximumFun.org slash events again to get those tickets for

the last shows of the year in Vermont, Massachusetts, and Maine. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge Sean Hodgman Podcast.