Judge John Hodgman - Justice Abhors a Vacuum

Episode Date: March 20, 2013

Friends quarrel over a borrowed (and broken) shop vac and its more expensive replacement.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, justice abhors a vacuum. Matt brings the case against his good friend, Jeremy. Matt borrowed a shop vac from Jeremy to do some grease trap cleaning at work, but he accidentally ruined it in the process. The friends finally settled on a replacement appliance, but Matt thinks he got a raw deal since the replacement is more expensive than the original. How should he have reimbursed his friend? Are they even now? Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. If you need me, I'll be downstairs. If you need me, I'll be downstairs with the shop vac. You can call, but I probably won't hear you, cause I'll put the shop vac on. But you'll be okay, cause we'll be upstairs with the TV.

You can cry, and I probably won't hear you, cause I'll put the shop vac on. Jesse Thorne, Swear the Men. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's never needed

a shop vac, he sucks plenty well enough on his own? I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman? Oh, thank you very much, Bailiff Jesse Thorne. You're welcome, Judge Hodgman. Thank you. Hello, Matt and Jeremy. Let me remind you, first of all, to speak when you are spoken to as much as possible. as much as possible.

And let me offer you an immediate summary judgment in your favor if you are able to identify the particular piece of culture that was referenced as I entered the courtroom. Jeremy? I have no idea. All right. And Matt? Yeah, I don't either. Really?

Okay. That song is the famous song about shop vacs called Shop Vac by famed musician superstar and one of my very dearest friends, Mr. Jonathan Colton. And it was performed by himself, Jonathan Colton. Hello, Jonathan. Hello, everybody. Hi, Jonathan. Hi. Jonathan. Hello, everybody. Hi, Jonathan. Well, so you are not familiar with the ShopVax song genre, of which Jonathan Colton is the king? Currently, no. Well, you must then take it on

faith that Jonathan Colton is an expert witness on the subject of ShopVax, and therefore will be sitting in and helping me to judge you. I thought it sounded like Bob Dylan myself. It was great. All right. Who spoke then? It was Matt. All right. I fall in favor of Jeremy.

This is the sound of a gavel. Matt, which one are you, the ShopVac borrower or the ShopVac lender? For Polonius tells us, neither a ShopVac borrower nor a ShopVac lender be. I was the borrower. You were the borrower. You're the one who was bringing this complaint. Correct. Because you think you are owed some money for breaking your friend's stuff.

Not necessarily owed money, but I think at the very least an acknowledgement that Jeremy came out ahead in this. Well, let's start at the beginning. You borrowed this shop vac from your friend Jeremy, because you needed something to clean out a grease trap? Correct. A grease trap at a diner do you work at, or what? It's a coffee shop. You're making fried espresso? No, believe it or not, it's just city code that we have to have one.

And so it's completely unnecessary, but occasionally it does need to be cleaned out. Right. Well, you wait long enough, that'll break a shop vac. Exactly. So where are you generating grease and how is it being trapped? Because when I think of a grease trap, I think of like a griddle, like a big griddle at a diner where you make, what, Jonathan, like hamburgers and hot dogs and pigs in blankets, right? Yeah, maybe a grilled cheese or an omelet. Yeah, something like that.

Flat food generally. Home fries also. Well, you just sort of push those on the back. And then there's a trough at the front of it, and you scrape that stuff, scrape the residue and the extra grease into the trough, and it goes down into a grease trap. And then you have a nice, clean griddle to start all over again. I know how this system works because I lovingly admire them every time I go to the diner because I want one in my house. And then you use that grease and you put it into hippie cars and

make them drive and they smell like French fries. But you had a different plan. First of all, how are you making the grease? So this is, it's basically just a big giant metal box that sits underneath our sinks. And so when we clean our dishes and our equipment, it will occasionally collect coffee grounds in there. So we don't have grease. It's more coffee grounds and just other mess that will drain down the sink. All right. And then you wanted to clean it out. So you had an idea. Tell me your idea. So I've got a good friend of mine who's a licensed plumber who suggested that one way to do this was to get a shop vac and just clean out the mess that was in there and then dump it into a grease dumpster. So perfectly legal.

And he said, so just find somebody that has a shop vac and ask them if we can borrow it for a morning. So that's where I asked Jeremy for his. So just without buzz marketing, where in the world is this coffee shop? Where do you guys live? Carbondale, Illinois. Okay. And Jeremy is not a licensed plumber, but he does own a shop vac because presumably he is 50 years old? Correct. Jeremy, you had a shop vac that was borrowed by Matt, correct?

That is correct. And what do you do with the shop vac? Why borrowed by Matt, correct? That is correct. And, and what, what do you do with the shop vac? Why do you have one? I have a shop vac, uh, because I was on my second home remodel project. Were you, are you a real estate flipper? Are you a 20, are you a 23 year old real estate flipper? No, I am not. What is your age?

I'm 35. 35. All right. Well, you're getting there. You're definitely getting older. I like that. You're getting into shop-back-owning territory for sure. So you were remodeling your own home or another human's home?

My own home. Okay. For the second time? For the second time. Second house. Are you incredibly picky? I don't like the way I remodeled this. No. home my own home okay for the second time for the second time are you in second house are you incredibly picky i don't like the way i remodeled this no i'm gonna tell myself it's all wrong tear it down self oh boy no this is the second remodel project in a second home oh all right and and then you just flip these homes because you're a scuzzbag and you want to make a lot of money?

More or less. Is that true? Do you flip these homes or are these homes that you use for your personal use? These are homes that I use for my personal use. All right. So your friend comes to you and says, I want to use your shop vac because I got a so-called licensed plumber who tells me that I can suck out the coffee grounds and make my life easier. And then I guess, what was your plan, Matt? Once you sucked out all the coffee grounds in two seconds and they all went into the shop vac, that's when you were going to drive it back over to your friend and go, here you go, deal with it, buddy. Well, no, the plan was we would take the shop vac down to the grease dumpster and dump it in there.

And he never told me the enormous mess that comes with cleaning a grease trap. And I'd never done it. And I don't do stuff like that normally. So I didn't know what I was in for. How full was the grease trap? Basically, the grounds rise to the top and the water sits underneath it. So the plan was just to get rid of the grounds, which he thought would just take one trip and then be done with it. And did it take more than one trip to suck up those grounds? I think it took three or four, if I remember right. Wait a minute. How big is this thing? What is this, an underground tank?

It's probably just about... If you're going to describe it in terms of... I don't know what. It sits under a sink, right? What is it, the size of an air conditioner? It's probably a little bit close to that size. Is it the size of, it's bigger than a gallon of milk? Correct. It's smaller than a Great Dane? It's probably around 40 gallons is what it holds.

40 gallons. Jonathan, you know math, right? Yeah, sure. What would be the size of a 40-gallon container in the gallon of milk Great Dane measuring system that I use? It's about 40 times as big as one gallon of milk. Okay. But what would that be?

Is that as big as a car? Is that as big as the moon? Is that as big as a thimble? What? No, think about it. Think about it. You're talking about volume. So it's, let's see.

It's two times – two times two is four times – so think gallon of milk, a row of two, two rows that are two gallons high and 10 gallons long. That's 40 gallons. This is what it's been like since college with this guy. I asked him a simple question about how big a thing is using a real-world example, and he gives me a math problem. Like, no, you do the math. I don't want to do the math problem. Just tell me a thing that's as big as. You work on that.

40 gallons of milk. Oh. All right. So that's big. That's a big thing. It's probably about as big as, like, an old 32-inch tube TV. All right. With the depth of that.

Thank you, Matt. You see, Jonathan? Yeah, 40 gallons of milk. That's what I said. Thank you. That's how they, when they still had console TVs, that's how they sold them. How many gallons is that? Like a 10-gallon hat.

Yeah, exactly so. All right. So you've got to suck all the grounds out of this cathode ray monstrosity. How long have you worked at this coffee shop? I've been there. I worked there some during my undergrad and then so all told probably about five years. And may I presume that the last day of your last year was the day you used a shop vac to suck the grounds out of the thing? Nope, still there. Oh, okay. You're still working there. All right. I am. And had the coffee, had the, had the grease trap ever been cleaned out before? It had, yes. This was the first time that I was doing it myself. How frequently does it need

to be cleaned up? It gets cleaned probably every nine to 12 months. All right. So you have done it since then. Yes, correct. And once you realized that shop vaccing it was a terrible method, what method do you use now? I call a guy who comes with a giant truck, and he does it. Well, why didn't you do that the other time? Because obviously you don't like to do anything. That would have saved everything. My thought was I was going to try to save a little bit of money by doing it myself. Is it your coffee shop? No, I'm just the manager. You have to pay for

the grease trap cleaning out of your own pocket? No, I'm just, I try to treat the business as though it is mine, though, so I spend money the way I would if it was mine. That's that Carbondale, Illinois spirit. I like it. That's right. Well, here's a quick question. When you were first instructed to clean out the grease trap, who gave you the instructions and what did they tell you to do? The owner wanted me to do it the way he used to do it, which was a far more complicated and messy manner. Give me a little example. So basically he wanted to detach the whole thing from where it was connected underneath the sink, attach it to a device he uses to move it around, and then take it somewhere and dump it.

And you were like, no way, old man. This is my time. This is the 2000s. I'm going to use technology. I'm going to show you how it's done, and then I'm going to hook you up for DSL. Then we're going to start a website for your coffee shop. Exactly. I was that guy once too.

But I didn't borrow a ShopVac. So what went wrong with the ShopVac? I'm going to ask Jeremy. The ShopVac went out. You agreed to this. That's correct. The ShopVac went out in condition – how old was it when it went out? Probably five years.

Was it 100%? Would you say it was 100% working? Absolutely. It worked as good the day he took it as the day I bought it. I presume you have an affidavit from a qualified shop vac assessor? Or do I have to take your word for it? Did you dispute that the shop vac was working in reasonably good order when you received it matt i it was working i'll give him that but it was clearly five years old do you dispute do you dispute that it was in reasonably good order when you received it matt yes or no no you do not dispute that. Good. All right. I do not. And then when it was returned to you, in what condition was it returned to you, Jeremy? Well, it was never returned to me.

It went from dumping the last bit of coffee grounds and grease into the grease dumpster. It went from that place into the normal trash dumpster. I never saw my shop back again. into the normal trash dumpster. I never saw my shop vac again. Oh, so Matt, you dumped out the grounds, and you're like, I have obviously turned this thing from a reasonably operating shop vac of five years old into total garbage that cannot be salvaged,

and you just dumped that in as well? Exactly. We knew it could not ever be used again. I'll give you this. You're decisive. Jonathan? You've used a shop vac before, right? I have relatively recently, as a matter of fact. So what did you use to clean it up? Coffee grounds and grease? No, rat feces. All right.

And that seems like a dry, friable material that could be easily vacuumed up, right? It's very friable. Yes, that's true. And the shop vac is also acceptable for use on liquids? As far as I understand it, yeah. And I have used it in the past to vacuum up wet leaves and mud and sticks and stuff that is not dry and friable. And I haven't, haven't had any problems. But let me throw this over to Jeremy with the shop vac. If you were to, if you had a puddle in the middle of your garage, like a three inch puddle that was about, I don't know,

let's say the size of a kiddie pool in circumference or I mean in, in diameter. Sure. Right. Cause I'm using real world examples. so you understand what I'm saying. Exactly. I'm not saying like it would be the size of a three ounce puddle times 100. I know you're talking about me. What? Oh, you're still here, Jonathan.

I'm sorry. Can you vac up standing water in the shop vac? Is that acceptable use for the shop vac? It is acceptable use for a shop vac. Is shop vac, by the way, a trademark name? Have I been tricked into buzz marketing shop vac for 15 minutes now? It actually is a name of a certain brand. However, generally, that's what any brand is referred to as shop vac. It's a generic name. Correct.

Like aspirin or heroin. A trademark name that has become generic. Exactly like those two. Yeah. What do you mean exactly? Is that what you're using your shop vac for to get high?

How do you even get the shop vac in the syringe? So just to quickly go over what a shop vac is, for those who don't know at home, it's something you keep in your garage. It has various sizes. It is a heavy-duty vacuum that has a large diameter hose that can suck up mud and leaves and rat feces and wood shavings, as well as standing water. And it can also, it doesn't just suck, but it also blows, as they say on The Simpsons, right? You can reverse the engine, can you not? Not on my particular model, though.

Not on the late lamented model that went into the dumpster? Correct. So what happened when you tried it? At one point, what was going on such that you determined that shop vac was dead? Matt? What I didn't realize was that the mess in the grease trap also has quite a strong smell to it. And so after cleaning it out a couple of times, we realized that that smell would then enter his house if he were to try to use it in his house. What was the smell?

What was going on in your coffee shop? I don't know that it can ever be explained. To this day, I can't eat burnt cheese because it still tastes like what I smelled. Suffice it to say that it smells like wasted liberal arts degrees. And I have one, so I know, yes. Jesse, will you alert our store over at Topatico that we need a design-approved stat for a new T-shirt featuring the logo of the Bad Smell Grease Trap Cafe? So it was the smell, not the functioning functioning that caused you to throw it away correct uh jeremy do you do you agree even though you were not there when matt came back empty-handed

to say i couldn't give you your shop vac because it smelled bad and therefore i threw it away what was your reaction uh i was disappointed at first, but he did come bearing a gift of a new shop vac, different model and manufacturer. And I expected that it would probably do the same things that my previous shop vac would do. And what did you need the shop vac to do? Pick up dust and debris from remodeling the house. Right. Okay. And mainly we're talking about rat feces.

And aspirin and heroin. Right. And so, Matt, knowing that you had done your bro an anti-solid. Would that be done your bro a liquid? No, you had done, no, you had done your bro an anti-solid. You had returned his solid with an anti-solid.

You immediately went and replaced it without consulting with him. Correct. Same morning. As soon as we dumped it, me and the plumber jumped in the car and drove to the hardware store and bought another one. All right. And what was the difference? What was the price of that shop vac that you paid for? The new one that I got was, I believe, $70. $70? All right. And you have receipts that you can fax me immediately?

I can definitely come up with them, yes. Well, you didn't come to court prepared, I see. All right, $70. And what was the difference between the two models? I'll go to the ShopVac owner himself, Jeremy. Well, on paper, the models were very comparable. But once I started using that particular, the new ShopVac, it was evident that it did not work um half as good as my previous model um in addition to a did you mean to say did you mean to say half as well yes that is what i meant to say i just had a little problem with Skype there, and I thought you said something else. It did not work half as well as my previous model. In addition to... So that means that the rat feces and marijuana smoke that you're smoking only got halfway up the pipe?

Something like that, yes. I don't know what you kids are doing out there in Carbondale, Illinois. The first ShopVax performance could be rated at 100% satisfactory performance. This was 50% or less? That is correct. Because it couldn't pick up a bolt or a nut? It couldn't do its job? That's correct.

It couldn't pick up something like that at all? That is absolutely correct. At the very end of its life, I couldn't even pick up drywall dust with the shop vac. How long did you have this new shop vac? Probably six to seven months. So in six to seven months, it went, it went South. Uh, well, it never, it always worked at least 50% as well as the original shop vac, but it just continued to get worse. Well, it always worked at least 50% as well as the original shop vac, but it just continued to get worse. Well, when did you bring this to the attention of your friend Matt? I brought it to his attention probably three to four weeks after he initially dropped it off at my house.

Why didn't you just, the two of you go over and have a nice day and return it and get a better one? over and have a nice day and return it and get a better one. Because he said that he would have to clean the grease trap out again at some point. He's obsessed with that grease trap. It's like his whole life is ordered around this grease trap. It is. It is, actually. And at that point,

when he needed to clean the grease trap again, he would take the malfunctioning shop back off of my hands and purchase the model of my choice. Wait a minute. Matt, let me tell you what I just heard. And then you can let me know if I've got it right or wrong.

So after about four weeks, Jeremy called up and said, this shop vac you got me is bogus. It is not working as well as the other shop vac. You got me an offus. It is not working as well as the other shop vac. You got me an off brand shop vac. You, you got me a shop vac, but it's spelled S H O P P E. So they, that's how they trick you.

A mock buster shoppy vac. How much did you, first of all, wait a minute, hang on. I'll come right back to that. Jeremy, how much did,

did your, did your all, wait a minute, hang on, I'll come right back to that. Jeremy, how much did your original shop vac cost new? It was probably somewhere around $60. Around $60? That's correct. So it's not that Matt is a thief, it's just he doesn't know quality in shop vacs when he sees it. He doesn't know how to get a bargain. Let me see if I understand this. You borrowed Jeremy's five-year-old sixty dollar

shop vac ruined it with a bad smell rather than try to get it prepared or repaired or cleaned you threw it away knowing you had done wrong appropriately you went with your so-called licensed plumber friend who still remains unnamed and is very mysterious you go to some weird shop vac pop-up store in your town and you say, give me something like this. They sell you garbage because they see a rube. They see a guy who knows a grease trap better than a shop vac. You go back. You give it to your friend.

He's like, all right, I'll give it a try. He gives it a try for four weeks, knows that it is having been a shop vac connoisseur for a long period of time, he's kind of a vac head, you know what I mean? I thought about writing a song myself, so. Well, why don't you work, because this little monologue is going to take about three hours, so you have time to work up and we'll listen to it at the end of the show. So after he complains to you, saying this vac is not satisfactory,

it's not satisfactory. You're laughing, Jesse. Makes me hate myself just a little bit less, but not much for saying that. You then say, this is what you don't say. You don't say, oh, geez, I'm sorry. Well, it's only been three or four weeks. Why don't we return it and we'll get the one you want? You say, oh, you know what?

Hang on to it. Hang on to it because I know in the not too distant future, I'm going to need to ruin another shop vac. So why don't you have something for an indefinite period of time that doesn't work for you so that I can use it to turn it into garbage again in the future? Is that correct? Yes or no? I have to be honest.

Yes or no? That doesn't sound like me at all. No. I'm not talking about my impersonation of your voice. I do not. Those are the facts of the case. Did you tell him when he said, I don't think this works very well, did you tell him to hang on to it because you were going to clean out a grease

trap in the future? I do not recall having that conversation. Jeremy, is your friend a liar? I think that Matt's memory of the events are foggy, much like the country of Germany. It sounds like you guys had a, you guys are playing a trick on me. Like you guys set this whole thing up. This is totally bogus. And it wasn't to buzz market shop vac. It was to see if you could get on my podcast and say foggy, much like the countries of Germany. And now you're going to just hop on a buoy and hang up.

This dispute has been going on so long. I cannot wait for it to be done. When did this all go down? This was probably, I think, maybe a year and a half or two years ago. So why are you still fighting about it? You bought him a bum shop vac. You owe him a shop vac. Well, there's more to the story. We haven't reached the end yet. Well, let's get to that quickly. Would you like me to tell the rest? Yeah. Well, wait, first of all,

wait, wait, wait, wait. You don't recall that you told him to hang on to it. I do not. I don't remember him ever coming back to me and saying that it wasn't working. You don't remember him ever coming back to you and saying it wasn't working? No. So which one of you is lying? All right, guys, I want you to both

to look into Jonathan Colton's eyes. He's not there with you, but close your eyes and picture his eyes. Okay. Jonathan, are you ready to do your truth-telling? I'm ready. Your truth-detecting? All right. The issue right now, I'm going to ask each of them a question.

And, Jonathan, you're going to analyze cause you're, cause you are a professional musician and you work with sound professionally. You're going to analyze their voice waves and tell me which one is a liar. Cause someone's lying. Okay. Someone is certainly not telling the whole truth. Jeremy. Yes. When did you contact Matt for the first time about your bogus off-brand shop vac not working properly? Three to four weeks after he initially brought it to my house.

Are you lying? I am not lying. What did Matt tell you? Matt tell you. He said, whenever I need to clean out the grease trap again, I will take this one off of your hands and I'll buy you the model of your choice. You sound like you're in a trance.

I like it. Matt. Yes, sir. You're very sleepy. Close your eyes and picture the eyes of Jonathan Colton. When I count to three, you will tell only the truth. A, B, C. You're under a trance.

Matt, how long after you gave Jeremy this bogus shop vac, did he contact you about it not being good? Approximately eight months. Are you lying? No. Did you say to him at any time that he should hold on to the malfunctioning shop vac until you needed to clean a grease trap again? No. Are you lying?

No. You you lying? No. You may awaken. Jonathan, this is not admissible in a court of even fake law. My particular truth detector. But what's your instinct? This is weird. This is a weird dispute over the facts of the case.

Yeah, it's obvious to me that Matt is lying. Just from listening to their voices, it's clear that Matt is lying. Wow. So noted in the record. I am going to have to go with Jonathan's assumption here and presume that Jeremy is telling the truth. Because there's such a diversion of memory here. One of you is misremembering or lying. And because of the Bob Dylan comment, I'm going to say it was Matt.

nonetheless you don't neither of you dispute that some months after that jeremy complained again and at that time matt did you say hang on until the grease trap is full or did you say let's get you a new one no at that point i said we'll get a new one uh all right and then what happened so he told me that that it wasn't working. So I said, okay, let's try to take that one back to the original store. And I said, you know, it had been so long, I can't imagine them taking it back. But we took it back. They gave us store credit for the amount of the original shot back. Even eight months later?

Correct. They did give us store credit for it. Oh. Was this the store you bought the bogus one from in the first place? Yes. All right. Can you say off the air what that store was? I'll just say it is a reputable housewares store, a big reputable chain store in the United States. Not housewares, but home improvement store.

Correct. And Jeremy, you wanted a new kind of shop back then? That's correct. And what was the difference between you didn't want the same shop back again, you wanted a new one? Right. I wanted the same manufactured brand that was ruined initially. All right. And that cost more? At the time, he told me it wouldn't. He said, if we return this to the original store and we drive 25 minutes to another store, the cost will be the same, which I agreed to. Well, wait a minute. So the initial store

gave you store credit. Right. But you did not buy the new shop vac, the new new shop vac at that store. Right. What he did, since he was repairing his home, he wrote me a check for that amount, and I gave him the store credit so that he could use it there. So the two of you go over to home store that sold you bogus shop vac. They take it back, even though it's eight months old and been used, and they give you store credit. And then Jeremy doesn't want to use that store credit there to get another bogus shop vac. He wants to go half an hour away to another store to get the kind that he really likes.

That is correct. All right. And so how did you make Matt whole? You wrote him a check? Yes, I wrote a check for the amount of the store credit. For the amount of the store credit. So now you have the store credit to use as you see fit. For other home.

That's correct. And then you, and then, all right. So then I will deem that now you are zeroed out. And then you went and then, all right, so then I will deem that now you are zeroed out. And then you went over to this other place and you picked out the top of the line, super duper shop vac. Like, you know, filigreed in gold. The Rick Ross model. And you put Matt on the hook for how much money for this now we went to the other reputable home improvement store and um i told matt and actually i had already previously addressed another issue

not only was the vacuum ruined but i had also bought a longer upgraded hose with my original shop vac. So it was a different hose that didn't actually come with the original shop vac that cost approximately $37. And when we got to the other home improvement store, I said, Matt, I can either get a vacuum and the same hose, which would have been around $100, or I can get this $100 shop vac without the additional hose. So basically, Matt bought you a $70 shop vac to replace a five-year-old $60 shop vac that had a 37-year-old hose on it, you found the shop vac's performance to be unacceptable. Also, its hose was not to your liking. It didn't have the psychedelic picture of a wizard on it that you like.

Exactly. Right? You've seen it? Yeah, right? Exactly. again because I'd have to buy the hose again or else it gets the hose again. And then you drove him over to the other place to buy a rep, a complete replica of shop vac alpha with the correct hose for a hundred dollars, which is, which is what Matt should have bought you from the beginning. That's correct. All right. Jonathan, do you have any further questions?

In the process of having shop vacs that were failing, did either of you notice that there were filters in the shop vac that could be changed? And did either of you attempt to change the filters? That is a very good question. And yes, I replaced several filters on the shop vac, hoping that that would change the performance, and it did not. And Matt, when you – it was just about the smell or was it about the function of the original shop vac that made you throw it in the garbage?

It was really just because I knew he would never be able to use it again. Well, you made that call. The licensed plumber, Darren, is actually – he's the one that said you won't even be able to clean that out. Oh, so now the licensed plumber has a name, Darren. Correct. Right. Have you finally figured out what height he is and what he had for breakfast as you're sketching out this fictional character? I actually did submit for evidence a text conversation where Darren had admitted that as a professional plumber, he believed that the shop vac that we replaced originally was the same quality as the one that we ruined.

Let me see. One is from Jeremy to you, Matt. Correct. And in this case, Matt's last name is blurred out. And then there is one from Darren to you, Matt. And in this case, Darren's last name is clearly spelled out. Right. And so this text that you got from Darren would have been around. Oh, okay. So this is, hey, this is you saying to Darren.

Hey, remember the great shop vac fiasco of last year when we ruined Jeremy's and went and got a replacement? And Darren writes back, simply, yep. Classic Darren. To the best of your knowledge, did we get a comparable replacement for the one we ruined? I know it wasn't exact, but wasn't it basically the same one? And Darren writes back, I never used the new one, but I know when you bought it, it was assumed to have been comparable. That is not a professional opinion. That is a CYA if I've ever heard one. When you bought it, it was assured

to have been comparable. That's not, he was not saying, yes, it's the exact same thing. But more to the point, this is evidence from Matt. This is when he writes, can't take it anymore. The shop vac can't cut it. Might I suggest returning it to name brand home supply store? Won't even pick up a screw. Brand new filter. See, Jonathan, he changed it. He did. And hardly any suction. And then Matt writes, I'd be up for returning it, but I would be shocked if their return policy goes this long. It's been

like four or five months. Interesting. Five months. And this was on December 31st, 2011. And then even more interesting, Matt, you have blurred out the next message. That was actually Jeremy that did that. Jeremy, you blurred it out?

That's correct. What are you hiding? That's a fair question. Well, you think on whether you want to tell me the truth, Jeremy, for once in your life. But listen, when did the grease trap thing go down? Do you have a date, anybody? My best guess would be August of 2011. August of 2011? Yes.

What would be your best guess, Jeremy? I would agree with that best guess. Right. So, Matt, Jonathan Colton was correct. You're a liar. You told me that you didn't hear from Jeremy until eight months this. me until eight months this. And we have a record here of a conversation from December 31st, four months after the August date that this went down, where he says, this shop vac don't work. And you said, I'd be up for returning it, but I would be shocked if the return policy goes this

long. It's been like four or five months, you wrote, lying. It was four months. To be honest, with this much time passing, I don't recall lengths of time, but I do know. Well, no, there was no time for you to go back through your files and put together a clean timeline to go on my podcast to get judgment. I'm sorry about that. I know, I realize that it's been probably eight or nine years since I agreed to hear this case. Matt, what do you want out of this? What do you want me to do? To be honest with you, all I want is one for Jeremy to stop bringing it up and to an acknowledgement that he in the, came out ahead from us wasting or ruining his five-year-old

job vac and buying him a brand new, top-of-the-line Rick Ross model. Is the model different from the model you originally had? I mean, obviously, it was brand new compared to five years old, Jeremy, but was it the same model? No, it is not. Is it a same model? No, it is not. Is it a better model? It is, yes. It is a larger, more powerful model. All right.

And does it work all right for you? Yes, it works great. And what do you want out of this dispute? If I rule in your favor, what would you like me to order? I would like a public apology at Matt's upcoming wedding for the frivolous accusations against me. In what venue is he making these accusations? The Judge John Hodgman podcast. But this is a dispute that even Matt acknowledged to Darren the plumber.

It was a fiasco that's been going on for years now. That's correct. How does this fight affect your daily lives? When are you making accusations of Matt, and when is Matt making accusations of you? When you're in the garage huffing rat feces out of the Rick Ross shop vacs? I would say it comes up about once a month. And I will say to this day, since it's happened, I've never once brought it up. Is it always you, Jeremy, who's bringing it up?

I do not remember it that way. I do. If I were you, Jeremy, the smart play now would be say, I'm afraid that's another lie, Your Honor. I'm afraid that's another lie, Your Honor. I'm afraid that's another lie, Your Honor. Mm-hmm. All right. I can see you're easily influenced. All right. I think I have everything I need. Oh, wait, Matt, when are you getting married? May 31st. Congratulations.

Thank you very much. If I find in Jeremy's favor the wedding is off, I'll be right back. I'm going to go inhale some scented oils out of a Dustbuster, which is totally legal in this state, and come to my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Matt, shouldn't you have just gone to the home superstore and rented a shop vac? I do wish that I had originally realized that doing it myself was going to be a disaster. So you think you should have hired someone to operate the shop vac? Well, no, I mean a professional grease trap cleaner,

which is what we do now. How do you feel about your chances in the case? I feel good, even though everyone's called me a liar. Jeremy, how are you feeling in your case against this inveterate liar? I just want my friend Matt back. And to be fair, a working shop vac. True. Well, I actually do have a working shop vac. Yeah, you're welcome. Let's take a quick break. We'll be back in a moment with Judge John Hodgman's decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom. that I went to an accredited four-year college where I could meet a man like Jonathan Colton, not only an extremely talented singer-songwriter, but a man who can gaze across the Internet into the very souls of other humans. Because, Matt, this is one of the rare cases that I've heard in this courtroom where someone has told a fact that is completely out of line with the other person's story and that that person be accused a liar and that person defend his statement and then to present his own evidence that contradicts his own statement. Not only did I have Jonathan Colton here to tell me you were a liar, you told me yourself with your evidence. Or maybe Jeremy sent that evidence.

I don't know, in which case it's forged. this it really it really is very satisfying to me to be able to say matt you don't have your story straight four months four months now we all know what you should have done and i believe that you are really that you are reasonably penitent in that you should not borrow friends tools to do a job that you don't know how to do. And you have learned your lesson. And not only that, without prompting realizing that this shop vac, according to the plumber,

Darren did no longer pass the smell test. You did precisely the right thing. Although I would, I would say you might want to, you want to call your friend and say, Hey, look, I don't think this shop vac is going to do it.

I don't think you, I don't think you want this thing back. I'm going to get you a new one. I apologize because that would have at least given Jeremy a chance to say, let me smell that shop vac. Who knows? Maybe he gets off on that kind of thing. Maybe he would have said to you, no, I like that shop vac shop vac if it's working i don't care what it smells like but you out of

shame i think did the right thing but almost overcompensated because out of shame you immediately went to the store and bought another shop vac when you admit you don't know what a shop vac is. You took it upon yourself to pick out a new shop vac for your friend, knowing that you don't know what he wants. And then you got it at a reasonable price and presented it to him. And if that shop vac had worked, no problem. No one would have known that you're a liar, that you're an opportunist, and that

when faced with the cataclysmic consequences of your own dumb decision-making, you will operate first out of shame to hide and lie by omission what you did in order to not get in trouble. Now, unfortunately, it did not work. And the question is, once James realized it didn't work, were you then under obligation to make good again? I mean, obviously, the answer is yes. But a reasonable argument could be made that if James waited four months, which is what we know from the record he waited, he says he called you earlier. We have no way to verify that.

You say he didn't contact you. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound.

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That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. For another four months, we know that that's bull feces. We do know that he waited four months, that he gave that shop back the benefit of the doubt for four months. four months that he gave that shot back the benefit of the doubt for four months and at that point you said well i don't know if they'll return it because you're you're a creep and a liar and you and you don't know what you're talking about obviously because they did take it back you tried to get out of it again you even went over to you even went over to your buddy, Darren the plumber, tried to get him on your side. And I realize now that Jeremy giving that shop vac the benefit of the doubt for four months, I think probably is representative

of how he deals with your friendship. Like this is clearly not working, but I'm going to give it a lot more time before I finally say anything. And I can only imagine this just comes up again and again and again. Then you get into this whole thing about, oh, then we went to the place, but they did return it. If they didn't take it back, then it would be a different story. But they did take it back.

He did the right thing in buying out your store credit. Now he's out 70 bucks for the BS shop vac. It didn't work. And he expects you to replace his shop vac. And he even asked you for a little bit more. That hose is not a plus because that was what he originally had on his original shop vac. And,

but it is a plus that he went to a, to a upgraded model, slightly better model. Now your argument to me, Matt, is that you should not be responsible for paying him more than I guess the $70 that you spent on the original bogus shop vac. And that if he wants anything else, uh, the third, the $37 or the $40 difference to get the better hose and the better shop vac, that that's on him. First of all, just raid the tip jar, dude. Forty bucks isn't that much. But you're saying that that's on him. And I understand that argument, but that argument is wrong.

I understand that argument, but that argument is wrong. Because, first of all, you should have replaced his original shop vac with the exact same model. Then he would have had the exact same hose. And even then, a good dude might have offered to upgrade him one. Because that five years and that upgrade, that's the damages you pay for messing up his tools. Never mind the four months that he's got to work with a, with a, with a bad tool because you passed off shoddy goods on him. So you're, you're out, you're out the 70 bucks. No, excuse me. Yeah, that's right.

You're at the 70 bucks that you bought for that bogus shop vac. And now you're coming to me complaining that he got 30 bucks out of you more because you ruined his tool and made him wait four months to make good on it? No, it does not fly. I absolutely find in Jeremy's favor, and I absolutely order you to make a public apology at your wedding on May 31st. I absolutely order you, I absolutely order Jeremy to video it, audio and video it, and make that available to this podcast so that we may post the evidence of your penitence and to make sure that you don't just sneak into the bathroom at your wedding, take a couple puffs off the dust buster,

throw down some stock wedding background sounds and make it out like you're making a public apology. I need to see that it's public. And I also so order you to make a public apology at this very moment. This is the sound of a gavel. And I also so order you to make a public apology at this very moment. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge Sean Hodgman rules. I await the apology.

Please, sir, apologize according to the orders of the court. I will reluctantly apologize. No, it must be an the court. I will reluctantly apologize. No, it must be an unconditional apology. I will unconditionally apologize. For not replacing repeat after me. Because this is what you're going to have to say at your wedding as well. I. I.

Matt. Matt. Do unconditionally apologize. Do unconditionally apologize. Do unconditionally apologize. To my friend Jeremy. To my friend Jeremy. For not immediately replacing. For not immediately replacing.

His shop vac. His shop vac. With the same model. With the same model. As the one I ruined. As the one I ruined. On the day I ruined it. On the day I ruined it. On the day I ruined it.

I also apologize. I also apologize. For refusing to take responsibility for my actions. For refusing to take responsibility for my actions. For refusing to take responsibility for my actions. For refusing to take responsibility for my actions. And I also apologize. And I also apologize. For misleading the court of Judge John Hodgman.

For misleading the court of Judge John Hodgman. This apology was not coerced in any way. This apology was not coerced in any way. Sympology was not coerced in any way. I make it under my own free will. I make it under my own free will. Signed. Signed. Matt. Matt.

Last name obscured. Don't wait for the translation. Say, last name obscured. Last name obscured. That is all. Wait, wait. Judge Hodgman. What, last name obscure. Last name obscure. That is all. Wait, wait. Judge Hodgman. What? Make him quack like a duck.

With great power comes great responsibility. Matt, how are you feeling right now? Well, I feel like I've been misrepresented. Not surprisingly. And I also feel like... You realize you represented yourself. No, no, no, no. I also feel like Jeremy's gone from being a groomsman to the janitor at my wedding.

So he's out. I hope you're okay with that. Jeremy, how are you feeling? I'm pleased with the judge's decision. Jeremy, Matt, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We look forward to that video. You'll get it. Thanks. I bet we will get it.

And Jeremy, if I hear that there have been any reprisals for your coming to this court and telling the truth today, the court will take action. Thank you. I appreciate that take action. Thank you. I appreciate that, Judge. Thank you. Well, I want to say thank you to our expert witness, Jonathan Colton. Thank you, Jonathan. You're very welcome. I'm sorry that I couldn't tell you an easy way to know how big 40 gallons was.

That's okay. And you know what? I'm sorry that I once again asked you to be my carnival sideshow when I needed to know the truth about something. That's all right. With great power comes great responsibility, and I understand that. This is how old friends get along. Yeah.

All right. Thank you very much. We'll talk to you later. Okay. Another exciting case, eh, Judge Hodgman? What's that? What's that? I was just hanging over here by the Dyson. Judge Hodgman, we need your judgment unimpaired so that we can clear the docket. Okay, okay. I'll put it down. Here, have some black coffee. Thank you.

Here's our first case. Much better. Here's our first case. It's from Aaron. I've got to say the foley on this show has gotten much better. He writes, my wife and I recently moved to a condo. Our newly discovered issue with the condo is the footfall noise from above. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney.

I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because, yes, listening is mandatory.

The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go. I think we should ask our upstairs neighbor if she wouldn't mind putting down area rugs, maybe even at our expense, or not wearing shoes indoors. My wife disagrees. She says walking in one's own apartment is not unreasonable. Soundproofing options for our ceiling are extremely expensive and they may not work. I think we should also inquire as to whether, if she ever wanted to put down new floor, we could pay for additional soundproofing measures at that point. I've been used to apartment noise before, but I'm finding the footfall noise intolerable. On a personal note, you arbitrated my dispute over the sandwich maker slash warmer last

May during the docket clearing. Oh, yeah. That was episode 62, My Dinner with Henri. You may remember it as the case of the defaced panini press. Oh, right. What was the case of the defaced panini press. Oh, right. What was the case? Nick?

Aaron said his friend Nick defaced the panini press by writing sandwich warmer on it. Oh, right, right. And how did I rule on that? Gosh, I don't remember. Okay. Well, let's see what else Aaron had to say. Hopefully you ruled that putting it into a panini maker makes almost every sandwich better. It certainly makes it warmer. That's what the case hinges on.

So here's another note from Aaron about that case. Oh, okay. He writes, I'd like to note that basically everything Nick wrote about that was incorrect. I begged him not to mention the episode in his best man speech, but he did anyway, despite the fact that you forbade it. Internet justice demands he be reprimanded in some way. Had we only made the podcast, I could have fully explained my side of the story. Well, first of all, there was no way you were going to make the podcast with your fight over whether or not a panini maker was also a sandwich warmer. You should feel lucky this court even turned its eye of justice upon you, however briefly.

And I don't even remember what the case was about or which way I ruled. But if you're telling me that Nick Lloyd, and I'll say his last name, defied a direct order from this court and mentioned defied the court's gag order with regard to his best man speech at your wedding. I find him in utter contempt. And I feel required to issue not only a stern rebuke, but also to order a confession. I guess you can't get married again, so it can't be a marriage-based confession like Matt and Jeremy have going. But I require you to go over to Nick's house and record this confession. I, Nick, last name obscured, hereby confess that I held the court of Judge John Hodgman in contempt.

contempt. I am wholly at fault. And as penance, I shall not eat a warm sandwich for six to eight months. Is that fair enough punishment, Jesse? Or should there be something more? That seems almost unimaginable to me. I don't know what I would do without. I mean, even if you ruled that I could not eat a semita poblana for six to eight months, my life would fall apart. At least a part of my life between 11 a.m. and 1.30 p.m. Now you know why you should not cross me. Now, as for your footfall dispute, Aaron, people upstairs are making some noise by walking around. They don't have carpets. There is an urban legend in New York City, the only place where urban legends come from because it's the only place sufficiently urban, that when you rent an apartment in New York City, you are required by law to put down carpets on the floor, covering no less than 80% of the floor space in order to avoid this terrible problem that you endure.

Now, that is an urban legend. That is not an actual law. Although in a condominium, that very well could be a rule. And I would encourage you, since you said you moved into a condom, to check and see in your condo bylaws if that is a rule. But if it is a rule, do not go brandishing it in front of your upstairs neighbor. I've had downstairs neighbors in my time here in New York who were real jerks about this sort of thing, and it only made me want to put on my hobnail boots and do more stomp dancing.

The thing is that whether or not it is enforceable by your condo rules, your first approach should always be the human one. Go up, knock on the door, and say, I know you might not be aware of this, but you're making a lot of noise, and it's very disruptive, and I wonder if you would consider getting carpets. And hopefully you can work it out between the two of you nicely. I would not offer to buy any carpets, because that is actually that person's responsibility, part of being a good neighbor and being aware that there are people beneath you and maybe he or she does not even know or appreciate it.

And I hope that by bringing it to light, it'll be solved very quickly. And if not, then you will have in your hand the condo rules, which you can then gently use to nudge this person to do the right thing. rules, which you can then gently use to nudge this person to do the right thing. And if they aren't rules in the condo, then unfortunately, there's not a lot you can do other than try to be good neighbors. And as Paul F. Duncan says, don't get drunk and fight everybody. Here's a case from David. I'm a Manhattan resident, and my inclinations are such that riding a bike is the only exercise I can fool myself into doing, as for some reason, I actually kind of enjoy it. I'd like to commend you for your admonition to use the numerous bike George Washington Bridge in its own lane, separated from cars by guardrails and grass, unimpeded by traffic lights with beautiful views of the river. I ride there, sans helmet, very frequently. I have yet to be hit. Also,

riding across the Brooklyn Bridge is very safe and lovely. I love how he says, I have yet to be hit, as though he appreciates that it is inevitable. What I like is that he seems to be of the opinion that you only wear a bicycle helmet in case you get hit by a car. Right. Well, if you're not planning to get hit by a car, why would you wear a helmet? That's a good point. No point taken. And why would you plan to be hit by a car if you're riding along the Hudson River Greenway above 96th Street or so, or I should say above 125th Street or so, where the bike path is separate, as he says, from one of the busiest and fastest and most irresponsible roads in Manhattan by a patch of grass? Well, I don't know.

Have you ever seen a car try to drive through grass? It's impossible. It's true. It's true. But I would say, no, that is a lovely bike path. Totally safe. Well, no, I will say it's a lovely bike path. I would say as someone who races down at the speed limit and sees other people go very quickly racing down the west side highway

with that path just feet away from the road with barely a barrier separating it, that you should, as always, when riding a bike in a city, use caution and wear a helmet. And by the way, riding a bike on a Brooklyn Bridge is pretty safe for people on bikes. Not as safe for pedestrians when you're getting constantly clipped by bikes going fast. Everyone just take care of each other. Whereas Paula Tonkins actually says, when I'm not messing up the quote, don't get drunk and fight one another. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at gosuperego.com. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum at forum.maximumfund.org and our Facebook group at facebook.com slash judgejohnhodgman.

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