Judge John Hodgman - Live From Lexington

Episode Date: February 14, 2024

An unopened Christmas present from 1999 and a case about haunted houses with Expert Witness Travis McElroy! LIVE at the Lexington Opera House! First up is "Wrap Sheet!" Kathy gave her mom, Carol, a Christmas gift in 1999. Carol has still not opened it! Will she open it during this show? Then, "Working Pro Boo-No!" Adam wants his wife, Amanda, to come with him and the kids to a local haunted house. She says, "Absolutely not." We are on TikTok and YouTube! Follow us on both @judgejohnhodgmanpod! Follow us on Instagram @judgejohnhodgman.Thanks to reddit users u/wilcoxchatham and u/drewcifer27 for naming this week’s cases! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne here with John Hodgman. This week's episode was recorded live at the Lexington Opera House in Lexington, Kentucky. That's bluegrass country, Jesse. It was the very start of our tour of this great nation, the Van Freaks Roadshow. Let's go to the stage for our very first case. Freaks Roadshow. Let's go to the stage for our very first case. Kentucky, you came to us seeking justice, and we're ready to deliver it right here at the Lexington Opera House. The court of Judge John Hodgman is now in session.

Please welcome our first set of litigants, Kathy and Carol. welcome our first set of litigants, Kathy and Carol. Tonight's case, rap sheet. Kathy brings the case against her mother, Carol. 30 years ago, Kathy gave her mom a Christmas present, a small sculpture that Kathy wrapped herself. Mom, Carol, loved Kathy's wrapping job so much, she didn't want to open it. It's still wrapped to this day. Kathy wants Carol to open her present already. Carol says, no. Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference. I'll take the spokes from your wheelchair and a magpie's wings. Is this more of this? And I'll tie them to your shoulders and your feet. I'll steal a hacksaw from my dad, cut the braces off your legs, and we'll bury them tonight out in the cornfield. Just put a church key in your pocket. I'll hop the freight train down the hall.

We'll slide all the way down the drain to Lexington, Kentucky in the fall. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Starting to wonder if you're just going to be doing that voice permanently. Let's see what happens. Kathy and Carol, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or

whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's doing that voice again? I do. I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Bailiff Jessie, thank you for not revealing the voice, for after all, that is the subject of the Obscure Cultural Reference. Kathy and Carol,

please be seated. For immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can you guess the obscure cultural reference that I made just a few moments ago here in the Lexington Opera House? People love this opera house. I don't know what it is. It's really good. Kathy, let's start with you. Is it Tom Waits? Is it Tom Waits? Is it Tom Waits? Is it Tom Waits? Can you be more specific?

I have no idea. All right. I'll just put down, is it Tom Waits, question mark, as your guess. It's a good guess. Carol, what's your guess? I have no idea. Who do you think the singer is? Tell her.

Tell your mother. Don't let her suffer. Oh, Tom Waits. Tom Waits. And what state are we in kentucky and what's the next word that comes to your mind as the name of the song by tom waits kentucky what our statue yeah pollen what did you say pollen Pollen. Pollen? People listening at home, these are references to the things that happened immediately preceding the start of this case. That's right.

Bourbon or bluegrass? That sounds very good for Kentucky, Kentucky. Unfortunately, the song is Kentucky Avenue, named for an avenue in Whittier, California, where Tom Waits grew up. Off of his album, Blue Valentine, 1978, Tom Waits. In any case, we'll have to hear the case. I'm sorry, neither of you got the cultural reference correctly, so we have to hear the case. Who seeks justice in my fake court? I do.

Kathy, what is the nature of your complaint? I made a present. I wrapped a present for my mom, and I gave it to her for Christmas, and she hasn't opened it yet. And she has not opened it yet. And Carol, where is this gift now? Right there. Right there.

Let the record show she indicated on the floor. I will pick it up. Inside of some sort of apricot box. Yes, in a former Harry and David box, I believe. Oh, excuse me, Hale Groves. Very nice. Which one of you will show me the wrapped present? I'll do it.

Kathy is showing me the wrapped present? I'll do it. Kathy is showing me the wrapped present. Aha. May I examine it? Yes. Let me take a picture of this so that we can share it and illuminate our listeners who are listening after the fact. That will be on our Instagram page, at JudgeJohnHodgman, our show page at MaximumFun.org. Jesse Thorne, any guesses as to what this present might be? I believe you said in the intro it was a sculpture of some kind. My first thought is Tom Waits, but... Right.

My second thought was horse statue, maybe? Yeah. But I'm not sure about that. Kathy, without revealing the nature of the present, tell us a little bit about it. Did you make it? What inspired you? Again, don't reveal what it is because the whole surprise of this case revolves around this. I was shopping with my mom prior to Christmas and I think it was 1999 because I would have been 17 and able to drive myself, which comes in later. We were shopping at Pier 1 and she picked up that sculpture and laughed at

it and said, oh, it's so cute. And so then later I went out by myself and bought it. And then Christmas Eve, I went to go wrap it. And my dad is an avid box collector, but this is before Amazon was delivering boxes. Let's just go back to my dad is an avid box collector, but this is before Amazon was delivering boxes. Let's just go back to my dad is an avid box collector. Like all dads. Is everything okay in your home, Carol? What kind of boxes does your dad collect? Shirt boxes, curio boxes, ornament boxes. Plastic, cardboard.

All the best boxes. Frankincense, myrrh. So probably your dad was like, I've got just the box for this statue of an unnamed creature exactly we were in the basement looking through boxes to wrap the presents and i could not find a box for it it wouldn't fit in anything fortunately we did today well right now with the advent of science we have boxes that will fit this thing. And I didn't know what to do. Back in 1999, we had nothing. So we didn't have gift bags or anything. And I thought since she had already seen it at the store, it would be funny to wrap it in the way you see now,

which is as close to the surface of the sculpture as possible. It is. It is a perfect surface map of the object. And it must have taken you some time to get it done. And it's been kept in remarkable good shape by your mother, I have to say. Kathy, how did you feel when you spent your hard-earned money on this gift for your mom

and then she didn't even bother to open it? I thought it was funny on Christmas Day as we went around unwrapping presents. She'd pick it up and look at it and go, no, I'll open this one instead and put it back down. And then that just kept going. Just over and over again, Carol, you refused to open the present. Why?

I didn't wanna. I didn't wanna. Let the record reflect that she didn't wanna. She didn't wanna. Why didn't you wanna? You need more detail? I don't need, but I'd like. Okay. I come from a family of engineers. All right. Three brothers. This was not how I expected this

to go. I'm absolutely enwrapped. Please continue. By the way, I find in your favor. No, hang on. I'll hold my piece. Three brothers, a dad, an uncle, grandfather, engineers. And around the dinner table, we didn't talk about our feelings, how we felt about things. We talked about what kind of camshaft is good for a racing car and carburetor linkages. and carburetor linkages. And so when asked during the pregame interview why I didn't want it opened, I was caught off guard. Why? What? Feelings? All right, so just spur of the moment,

I said, well, it was because my daughter gave it to me and that was really sweet and she's a kid and didn't have that much money and blah blah blah. Let me see if I understand what you're saying. Your daughter was younger she didn't have much money it was very cute the thing that she gave you and then she wrapped it in such a cute way and you had been to Pier 1 Imports so you knew exactly what this piece of junk was. The magic was in the wrapping you didn't want to destroy it because that was the true gift. Fair? I mean I don't want to destroy it because that was the true gift. Fair? I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but fair? My answer about, because she was so, it was a child's gift to her mother, really did not answer the question. So if I look over

and I see it wrapped, I think of my daughter's brain and her essence and how proud I am of her. Wow. If it's unwrapped, it's an identified thing that my daughter gave me. And it's just so much better for me if I can think of my daughter when I see it. Kathy, I think you're losing this one. Kathy, why do you hate your specialness?

I know. For a person who comes from a long line of engineers, an emotionless automaton like your mom, she seems to have engineered a response that has truly made us think she is human. It's true. She passes the Turing test. It took several days. I hope the journey wasn't too painful.

So how do you respond to that, Kathy? My response is that I would like it to be either unwrapped. The other issue is I have children, and if you look closely, you can see parts of the wrapping paper that are not as sun-bleached as others. And I think little bitty hands have been trying to peel off the paper because it's been sitting just in the window where anybody can get to it. And my six-year-old is very sneaky. Oh, you have children. I thought maybe there were gnomes or something in the house. And I don't want it to be unwrapped

without or by some children. And or I don't want it to be unwrapped um without or by some children um and or i don't want it you're saying you don't have control of your children and then unwrap it and then it's right there right um and then uh or i don't want it to continue to disintegrate until it falls apart and then is weird um or so either unwrapped or preserved. Intentionality would be my request. Intentionality. You don't appreciate the fact that in a way your mother is unwrapping it, but very slowly. Yes, by default. So you don't have a strong opinion as to whether this unknown animal gets wrapped or unwrapped. You want it to either get encased in plastic in its current state. What's your suggestion for preservation of the artifact?

There's like Mod Podge, they could coat it in a clear coat. It could be wrapped again in different paper. It could be wrapped again every year in different paper, which is my husband's suggestion. Either unwrapped and rewrapped or continuing to build it out until it is just like completely unrecognizable. These are some of the-

It feels like you want to take this present back and give it to yourself. No, that's not my idea. My idea is either a display case or unwrapping together with the kids. What do you think about those options, Carol? As far as the grandchildren go, you've heard of the marshmallow test? I have heard of the marshmallow test.

This is, you give a child a marshmallow and you say, you can eat this now or you can wait, I don't know, what is it, like 25 years? Yeah. You give a child a marshmallow in 1999, you can eat this marshmallow now or wait until 2023, and then you get two marshmallows. And then the child says, I'm just going to eat the marshmallow now, thanks. Why? I'm not, I'm your child, not a test subject. What is going on? Do you love me or are you an engineer? I don't understand. Do I remember it correctly?

Yes. Okay. So in terms of the grandchildren, how does the marshmallow test apply? Well, they can wait. Until when, madam? Until when? When will this be unwrapped? I think the paper is sort of turning to dust. So I think it's unwrapping itself.

I think it's unwrapping itself. Entropy is doing it. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Oh, wait. Are you saying that entropy is doing it? Or are you saying that it possesses free will? Because I heard the latter. No, no, no. No free will here.

Do either of you have a clear memory of what this thing looked like before it was wrapped? I have an inkling, because in the intervening time, I found a Christmas ornament that is shaped similar to that object, but is a lot smaller and has a curly tail and it hangs on the tree. I wrapped that in a regular box and wrote gotcha on it and gave it to her for Christmas. So we do have that one. Okay.

And that is my last sort of inkling as to what it might have looked like. Are you worried that you might be disappointed that your memory won't serve? That maybe it will lose preciousness once it is unwrapped? I don't know. I don't know. You just want that dang marshmallow. I do. Very hungry.

You want it both ways. Yeah. Either of both ways. Either preserve forever or just tear off the wrapping, tear off the band-aid and look at this thing once and for all. Why does this middle ground make you uncomfortable? Because it's left up to chance things. Just apathy. Imagine for a moment you don't come from a long line of engineers. That's really hard. Your mom worked very, very hard to connect with her emotions. Yes, she did.

I can see that this makes you uncomfortable even now as you look at it. Here, let me turn it around so it's facing you. Just to maximize. We're guessing that it's facing you. We don't know what's in there. Here we go. Just imagine it leaping towards you. Imagine it saying meow among many other possible sounds.

What are you talking about? How do we even know? We don't know. Just one sound of many it could possibly make. What about your mother not unwrapping it? How does that make you feel? I thought it was funny. It is funny.

It's funny. That I think leaving it just to the whims of time is kind of sad. But it feels a little sad. Yeah. The wrapping is getting a little bit

run down you should see our house there may be wallpaper from when i was born taped together at the scenes and the rooms in their house so and it is currently kept where on a windowsill someplace? Windowsill. In full sunlight. Yeah, so it won't be long. It won't be long for any of us. Kathy, if I were to rule in your favor, you would have me

which, you have to pick one. Either preserve it forever or unwrap it with your kids. Oh, that's hard to pick. I would say preserve it better so that it doesn't disintegrate over time. Hmm. Carol, if I were to rule in your favor,

what would you have me rule? Entropy? Inertia? Status quo? It's all about the wrapping. I just think of her when I see her. It was so funny that we gave our son a guitar later, and my husband rapped it like that.

He didn't have a box for it? No. Falling down on the job, Dad. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I'm going to retire to my chambers for a moment. I'll be back with my verdict in just a moment. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel.

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Kathy, how are you feeling about your chances here? I am feeling okay. I have no idea how this is going to go. You know, when I used to go to the Columbia Park Boys Club after school, in the shop class, we had this thing called plastics. And one of the things, I mean, I'm not suggesting you don't know what plastic is. This activity called plastics. And one of the things we did was you could bring something to the shop teacher

and they would encase it in clear plastic like a, you know, like a bug specimen or something like that. I'm just saying, I know it's in the Mission District of San Francisco, so you'd have to buy a plane ticket. But it's available. It's available to you. Carol, how are you feeling about your chances? I mean, I'm right. I mean. Carol, how are you feeling about your chances?

I mean, I'm right. I mean... Well... Well... Well, please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and delivers his verdict. Well, I'm right. The daughter, sister of engineers. You're not an engineer yourself. It says here that you are a retired

protein scientist. Is that correct? Chemist, yeah. Chemist, excuse me. Scientific mind, all the same. I really wanted to unwrap this thing on stage. I know, I know you did. I really wanted to get my little, on stage. I know, I know you did. I really wanted to get my little, it's how I say, paws in this thing

and bat it around mischievously. It's a cat! All right, everyone listening? We can't be sure. Everyone, well, you're absolutely right because what you convinced me of, Carol, is that we know that it's a cat, because you saw it before, and it looks like a cat. But now it is wrapped in a kind of ambiguity.

And I am convinced that if you unwrap this cat, the magic of this gift will die. But remaining inside the Schrodinger's wrapping, this cat is alive and dead at the same time. Very good. I was so mad when I read in the notes that, Kathy, you did not want to unwrap this cat outside of the presence of your children who are not here tonight, and therefore I would not get to unwrap it on stage. You understand, to a show person, that's death. Like, you don't understand Chekhov's law of wrapped cats.

I have this wrapped cat up here this entire time. I can't unwrap it in front of the audience. I want my present now. How about two marshmallows down the road? I'll see you in 23 years. But I now understand this cat can never be unwrapped. Yeah. Never, ever. Not even by time and the windowsill. This cat must remain encased in this beautiful wrapping forever. Now, I do think that it would be interesting to encase it in Lucite or something and to truly mount it and make it a work of art.

But I don't think this cat, this cat is not a Lucite cat. It's a wrapping cat. You know what I mean? Like the cat in the, what's the song? Opposites Attract. Opposites Attract. MC Scat Cat.

Talking about MC Scat Cat. He's good friends with Paula Abdul. Paula Abdul and MC Scat Cat. He's a rapping cat. He's not a loose side cat. You know what I mean? Wow. I'm sorry. Did you say wow or meow? Two steps forward and two steps back.

Something, something. Opposites attract attract that's not me jesse all right we're gonna learn that for the next show the point is this cat must remain wrapped and honestly i liked your idea kathy which is you wrap it again you're good at this right yes this is the first time i've seen you smile all night. You want to wrap this thing up again. One more time around the wrapping table for this wrapped cat, and then that will be it. Then that cat can be wherever you want it, but you just bought yourself another few years. And the fact of the matter is, when this thing, when it finally comes, both layers of wrapping come undone, it's going to be disappointing. Keep it wrapped.

I think more than two layers, though, overkill. Okay. One more turn through the wrapping paper. That's a phrase, right? Yes, definitely. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all.

Thank you, Kathy and Carol, for being on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you so much. Lexington, believe it or not, we've got more justice on the way. Let's bring out our next set of litigants. Please welcome to the stage Amanda and Adam. Our case, working pro bono. Amanda brings the case against her husband, Adam. Adam wants to take Amanda to a local haunted house.

He says, it'll be fun. She says, absolutely not. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference. There's a house on my block that's abandoned and cold. Folks moved out of it a long time ago.

And they took all their things. They never came back. It looks like it's haunted with the windows all cracked. Everyone calls it the house where nobody lives. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Amanda, Adam, please raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?

I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he is haunted? I do. I do. I absolutely am haunted. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. We just delivered our youngest child to college, and I am completely haunted.

Thank you very much. Just wander around my house like a ghost, going, I remember when there was life here. Shaking the chains that used to bind you to something. That's right. Yeah, then I go bother my old business partner. That's why I'm showing up in your bedroom every time I chase your chains. Anyway, where was I?

Oh, I'm on stage in Lexington. I forgot. I apologize. I apologize. I apologize. Amanda apologize. I apologize. Amanda and Adam, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment

in one of yours favors. Can you guess the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom? Amanda, why don't you guess first? I cannot. Ooh, Adam's got a big grin on his face. I think he knows it.

Guess a song. What's your favorite song? Oh, Opposites Attract by Paula Abdul, MC's captain. Great guess. I love it. Hang on, let me write it down. Where's my pen? Okay. Go ahead. Adam, what's your guess? His guess is Be Somebody or Be Somebody's Fool by Mr. T.

I'll put that in as your guess. I was thinking House of the Rising Sun, but I'm pretty sure that is way off. The House of the rising sun with its famous its famous chorus the house where nobody lives right there is a house there is a house and it goes by two names right house of the rising sun and the house where nobody lives in the songwriting workshop that would be called a hat on a hat. Too many things.

All guesses are wrong. Shall I sing it the right way? No. There's a house on the hill. No! It's abandoned. No, he's back. He's back.

The man from my nightmare. Folks moved out of it a long time ago. Make him stop. The house where nobody lived by Tom Waits. I don't even like... From the album Mule Variations. I don't even like real Tom Waits.

How dare you? Oh, Amanda. Amanda and Adam, who comes to seek justice before me in this fake court of law? I do. And what is the nature of your complaint, Amanda? Every Halloween since we have been together, we dispute if I have to go to a haunted house with him or not. A haunted house with him

tomorrow night, did you say? No, or not. Or not. Sorry. Adam, is the haunted house that you want to go to open tomorrow night? Because that may affect my... It is, as a matter of fact. It is, as a matter of fact. All right, well, let's just put down tomorrow night. Question mark in the calendar. Haunted house. What is this haunted house that you're interested in? The one that I have in mind is called the Dent Schoolhouse. It's in Cincinnati. It's in Cincinnati.

Many spirits are frightened by the name of the Dent Schoolhouse. They gave some very weak woos. They must be old spirits indeed. 1870s on the side. What is the Dent Schoolhouse in Cincinnati? So I believe it's a late 1800s schoolhouse. And the lore of it is that some children were going missing at that time. And the town couldn't figure out exactly what was happening if they were runaways or whatever the case may be and as it turns out it was the custodian of the school oh one frederick kruger i believe yeah what's his name you know that i i'm not sure on i think it it was Charlie, maybe? Uh-huh, okay.

I could be wrong. Charlie Krueger, his cousin? Yeah. But this is an entertainment purposes haunted house at this point. I mean, is this legend genuine, or is this made up for the... I think the origin story is real, from whatever end. But one experiences it now by going to it, and what happens inside the house? Or are we not allowed to know?

We've not been able to go. You've never been allowed to go. Have you been to haunted houses together before? We've been to a haunted trail a couple years ago. With our children. A haunted trail? Haunted by the ghost of Davy Crockett? Yes.

Yeah. Huh. What was on the haunted trail, Amanda? It was a trail through a little park in a wooded area, and there was, like, volunteer actors, but they were all dressed up. I'll give you a little secret. All actors are volunteer actors.

We all agreed to this. We didn't have to do this. And there would be, like, little vignettes along the way of different scenes scary stuff like what kind of scary thing would happen I remember clowns most distinctively they like to get in my face

I did not appreciate it I had a child attached to my side right strange and so instead of like lunging at us it was like a slow very intimidating stare down and it scared you i did not appreciate that any more than a surprise attack right you didn't enjoy it adam you had a great time though watching your wife squirm. Oh, it was great. What is it about this house do you think that Amanda would actually enjoy? So there is an option where there are lights on and no actors.

In other words, that's where it's... Right. So you're just left with the lore and not the uh-huh the folks attacking you no jump scares that sort of thing right and i thought that that might be a good enough middle ground and it's even supposed to be kid friendly and our kids are wanting to to start going to haunted houses and that sort of thing so i thought i thought that this could be you're using the kids against her yes i see adam is there a history of of Amanda asking you to do things that you don't like to do? Yes, every year, as a matter of fact.

Every year, what is it that you do that you don't want to do that Amanda wants to do? So I'm not real good with crowds. I don't like to be in them. They make me uneasy. Thank you. So thank you so much. With that being said, bring it in. I get dragged along to the yearly Cincinnati Fireworks celebration.

Oh. And that brings about 500,000 or so people. But I do it. And you get into a crowd because Amanda wants it. And this you're not enjoying. This I am. Let the record show that Adam pointed at Jesse Thorne, essentially merging mustaches with Adam,

whereas I'm just standing beside him with my arm on his shoulder like a pal. This is true. arm on his shoulder like a pal. This is true. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-R. Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there?

Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Well, we have some exciting news, Judge Hodgman. We have added a whole new dimension to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. That's right, Jesse. We are a little bit behind the time, but now we are right on time. Judge John Hodgman is live on TikTok and on YouTube.

On TikTok, you're going to see little Swift Justice segments where I hear a little Swift case and I adjudicate it real quick because that's the TikTok way. It's a little bit of a quick talk. But the YouTube, we've got whole episodes up there on video now. Me wearing judges robes, you wearing a bailiff outfit.

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those new short videos. And our thanks to our new video editor, Daniel Spear, to Valerie here at MaxFun, who helped us set up this equipment. And I will mention, not for nothing, Judge Hodgman, but the MaxFun drive is around the corner. Oh, sure. Video producers don't work for free.

So if you love seeing this stuff, we hope that you'll take the opportunity to become a member of Maximum Fun. But in the meantime, just enjoy them. It's fun. Look, we're wearing our little outfits and everything. Yeah, don't just enjoy them, Jesse. Like them. Yeah. Subscribe to them.

Smash the patriarchy. Share them. Smash the patriarchy. Social media. We finally got it right right let's get back to the case how would you feel you're not excited by the idea of people sneaking up on you like you would not enjoy an actor dressed up as a werewolf sneaking up up on you on stage, for example. That sounds awful. Sorry, Travis, she's not into it. Yeah, I'm sorry.

She doesn't want it. Sorry. Sorry, Trav. I mean, no, don't go away. Come on, let's get him back to the stage. Expert witness, Travis McElroy. Travis McElroy, back to the stage. Hi, everybody.

If you please. Hi, it's me, Travis McElroy. Let's get Travis set up with a microphone and even a stool if he can sit down. A stool and everything? Yes, right, exactly. Hi, everybody. Travis McElroy, of course, from My Brother and My Brother and Me, Schmanners, The Adventure Zone.

Travis, thank you so much for being here. You are also from Cincinnati. Correct. You traveled down here to be with us today. The Queen City. I'm sure you all have a warm place in your heart for Cincinnati. I actually don't know. Is there a rivalry?

No. Cool. I love that. Well, there is tonight. Oh, man. What do you know about haunted houses in Cincinnati? Do you know the Dent Schoolhouse? I do, I know of it.

Yeah. That is one of the few haunted houses in America I have not worked at. Oh my god. Too terrifying even for you. Yeah, no. I just know too many theater kids who work there. Travis, you have worked haunted houses. Many, many haunted houses professionally.

If there is one thing that binds the McElroy family together, it is volunteer acting. Yeah, that's true. I worked several haunted houses in college. I worked at a company in Los Angeles that set up haunted houses in rich people's garages during the Halloween season, where I was struck in the face by a seven-year-old girl.

And I was 31 at the time, and I said, "'Excuse me, young lady." Did she crawl out of the television? No, she was dressed as a ballerina at the time. And I was sitting in a fake- So she was just in character then? Yes. Yeah. I was sitting in a fake... So she was just in character then? Yes. I was sitting in a fake electric chair as a scarecrow.

It wasn't real. And I was sitting there completely still and I went, and she looked at me, smacked me. So it wasn't even, there was a definite decision

of I'm going to smack this person. Travis, is it possible that you, dressed as a scarecrow, sitting in a fake electric chair were smacked for mixing metaphors? Perhaps. What part of it was set up in a person's garage where you're like,

there was deep backstory for every character? And I mean, also, to be fair, like, I know that we right now only have capital punishment in this country, and some places for murder. You wanted to kill that little girl, Jesse. I would also, I would be willing to consider capital punishment in this country and some places for murder. You wanted to kill that little girl, Jesse. I would also... I would be willing to consider capital punishment for living scarecrows.

They would mostly just catch on fire. Yeah, that's true. Horrible. It's the only way to deal with them. Anyway. I also once fell asleep in a coffin during a haunted house. Sorry, go on. They're surprisingly comfortable.

Have you had an opportunity? Ah, ah, ah. Have you had an opportunity? Wait, hold on. Dracula's can take any nap. Pass without comment. Have you had the opportunity to hear the testimony

offered by Adam and Amanda? I have. Do you have any opinions so far or questions you would like to ask? I did miss the part explicitly where your problem was going through a lights-on, no actors haunted house. What's your problem there?

Yeah, that seems like a pretty good compromise, Amanda. I don't think it'll satisfy the kids. You don't think it will satisfy the kids? No. I think that would be underwhelming for them. I think I would be fine with that. Is the twist of the story that there are no kids?

Okay, so here's what I want to drill down. If I may, as an expert witness, what is it? That certainly is the role of the expert witness to interrogate. Permission to treat the witness is hostile. Permission granted. Please

pace back and forth while you're asking. Travis is what a simple country lawyer is. No, I'm just a simple country podcaster. But I am curious. No, I'm wondering, what is your, if you were to follow your worry and fear to a logical conclusion,

what are you worried is going to happen, right, that makes it so like i don't want to do that because what if blank um i don't know that's a worry of what's gonna happen it's where my imagination takes me when i see people in those situations that my imaginations are pretty vivid i can pre-imagine these ideas and then you give them to me and my imagine just sticks to them well can i tell you what's happening in that situation is they're thinking, I'm going to have enough money to buy Pokemon cards later. And they're very excited about that.

That's fair. Finally get that Funko Pop. Oh, yeah. I can't wait to go home and drink a lot of Mountain Dew before going to bed. You don't think that the lights on will satisfy the kids? That seems like an excuse. Because, honestly, who cares what the kids want? Who cares if the kids are satisfied?

They're just going to grow up and leave you and go to college. Yeah, teach them to fear now so they stay with you. You think you spend your whole life thinking about what they want. They never for once think about what you want. And then they're whole human beings in their own right. And they just go away and you realize that's the way it was supposed to be the whole time. I should have taken them to that lights on haunted house. Who cares what they want?

I'm so glad that mine and Jesse's kids are still young enough. They'll never grow old. This is starting to sound like a very scary story indeed. Here's what I will say. having worked in many haunted houses. There is a lot of, especially Dent. Dent is one that happens every year. It's worked by a lot of theater people, as I said.

There's a lot of care and thought that goes into the design, and you know they're going to follow the rules as far as touching. Some of these fly-by-night haunted houses you think oh they're not allowed to touch me but they don't care right dent is a repeated it happens every year travis you know they're strict about it travis i was a theater kid all we did was touch

just touch touch touch touch that's why we became theater kids so we could touch. Well, each other, but you didn't get off the stage during Cats and pet the audience. As much as you might want to. Or did you? As an actor, you kept your cat wrapped up on Cats. True. Oh, you're still here. Surprise.

Do you have anything to say about Adam's feeling of discomfort going to the fireworks and feeling forced to do that, and therefore his revenge as a vengeful ghost should be to make you walk through this haunted house? Does that carry any water with you? I have offered to let him stay home. You have offered to let him stay home. Sir, how do you respond to that?

Yes, she has offered to let me stay home, but it's a family event where I feel like there's an obligation to go. So even though the offer's there, it's implied that I should still go. Also, it wouldn't satisfy the kids. Also that, yes. And neither of you want to be sent into the cornfield by your demonic children. That's right. May I ask a question, Judge? You may.

Now let me grill the other guy. I don't think I can stop you anyway. Let me ask you this question, sir. You don't invite Travis on your show to tell him not to talk. Yeah, that's true. Could it possibly be that you would like your wife to go with you to the haunted house because you enjoy haunted houses, and so you think

if I enjoy them, she will too if she just gives it a chance. Yeah it's I've... But could it also be possible that she has drawn a boundary saying I would not enjoy it and I support that you enjoy it and that's beautiful. Do I have to answer only yes or no? You can yes, no, or plead the fifth. Yeah you say whatever you want.

Then I plead the fifth. Okay. Does the prosecution the fifth. Okay. Does the prosecution rest? For now. Well argued. I don't know. The prosecution naps. You're the most restless prosecution I've ever met.

I think I'm prosecuting and defending. I'm not sure where I'm at. No, I understand. You're getting to the truth of it, which I think is this. You would like your wife, Amanda, to enjoy haunted houses. She's never going to enjoy it true don't you agree Amanda you will never enjoy it ever it's impossible you were cursed by a monkey's paw to never enjoy a haunted house absolutely you're not even willing to give the

walkthrough no actor I mean there's going to be no clowns right it's just what is the idea of walking through the haunted house that has a legend attached to it scarier than weirdos attacking you without touching? I guess not. I guess it would be fine. Is there an actor you really like? Because maybe you could do lights on one actor. And it's like, Credo Pascal is there, and he's like,

Hi. Come on in. This is my house. Let me show you around. This is MTV's haunted cribs. This is where the literal magic happens. I feel like it's going to be like, I'll go to this and they're going to get older. And then they're going to be like, well, now we're going to do this.

And there's going to be no like, when do I get to just hop back out? It's a slippery slope. Yes. Thank you. That's a slippery slope. Yes, thank you. That's the words. Okay. Travis, have you ever seen someone really upset at one of these haunted houses?

Yes, Jesse, but I've seen people really upset at a lot of things. I've seen people really upset at comic book conventions. So I've seen people really upset at arcades. In your ideal ruling, Amanda, you say you'd like me to rule that you never have to go to a haunted house ever, ever, ever, forever. Adam, yours is interesting.

To find a haunted house for her to go to with you that might be family-friendly and not super gory. Gore has not entered the conversation until now. Gore enters the chat. Is the Dent School haunted house gory? I don't know. May I offer a suggestion king's island also located in cincinnati does like horror nights but it's still like a family amusement park with lights and stuff and rides and stuff so i did read about that and they do have a disclaimer that says 13 and under it's not recommended it's not damn suitable

Amanda suggests that your demonic ghost kids would not be satisfied with lights on and then there would curse you to live forever in a painting or something uh do you think that you might not be satisfied with lights on um at this point i just want to see it at this point right um i think she is right we do have our our one kid is pretty into halloween and it might be underwhelming for him but i think this is a good test of the water how you have kids or one kid two two and what are their ages if i may ask nine and seven and does this house have a rating for age appropriateness that you're aware of? For that particular event, I believe that one is kid-friendly. The light's on?

Yes. Okay. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I'm going to retire to my haunted chambers. Can't think of anything better. Sorry. Sorry, Lexington. I'm going to retire to my chambers.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge Sean Hshman exits the courtroom. Amanda, how are you feeling about your chances here? Not great. Why is that? I think that lights on options really going to get me in trouble. What do you think, Adam? How are you feeling? I think it's 50-50. I think there is the inducing somebody

to come out of their comfort zone aspect of things that I think that that could be a factor. But I also think that sometimes that's encouraged as well. So we'll just have to wait and see. Do you think it's possible that lights on, no actors just means only real ghosts? It could very well mean that. We'll have to find out.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. I don't believe in ghosts. And I'm coming to you, Adam, to say you cannot make your wife love a haunted house. You cannot trick her into liking a thing that makes her scared. Because the most scared I have ever been was in, well, Universal Studios used to do a really scary one. What was it called?

Halloween Horror Nights. Though I do not believe in any ghost spirits, haunts, or haints, I was more scared than I ever have been in my life walking through that controlled environment where I knew that it would be very illegal for any of those people to touch me with their chainsaws and manacles and whatever it was. And yet, I could not handle it at all. It really scared me.

And then I went on Haunted Hayride in Los Angeles. They do it up right there in Halloween time in Los Angeles. They really scare John Hodgman a lot. Even then, I know it's all make-believe, but it's very, very scary. Someone got up onto the hayride and had a chainsaw. It was fake, but it scared me a lot. Amanda, I was scared. I'm sorry that I loomed near you. It's scary. Scary stuff. Some people just makes their skin curl, curdle, whatever it is. You know what I mean? Scary. She's not going to do it. She's not going to enjoy this. I don't think, right? And I understand you tried to play every card you had in your haunted deck of cards. She makes me go to the fireworks,

boo-hoo. My children are going to be disappointed. They have a father who will take them to the haunted house. Take them to the haunted house. Leave her behind. You can stay home on the fireworks. Your children won't think less of you. They're not going to curse you to live inside a jar or something

for the rest of your life. If it's really uncomfortable, you should just say, I don't feel like it because of the crowds. Maybe you'll enjoy being crowded in by evil clowns and mummies and stuff and this weird thing that you're going to go to. I don't think you should go to lights on.

I think you go to lights off. I think you should go to one where you tell them, turn all the lights off and blindfold, man. I'll walk through by myself. I think you got to go through it alone. I think you got to go through it alone. I think you got to go through it alone. Lights on once, lights out once,

so you can figure out whether your kids not only are satisfied, but can handle it. And then I think you can decide whether or not you bring your kids and you can make your case to your wife. Again, it really wasn't that bad. Here's what you're going to do. When you go through the lights out one,

Amanda, don't listen to this because it's going to be fun for you. When you go through the lights out one, say, here's what I'm because it's going to be fun for you. When you go through the lights out one, say, here's what I'm going to do, honey. I'm going to FaceTime you the entire time. And then you like walk her through it. And you're like, see, it's nothing. It's nothing at all.

And then you just go into a corner and then you just collapse. That's perfect. Yeah. And then just have someone else pick up the camera and point to you and you're just standing in the corner Blair Witch style.

And then the camera goes black. Okay? That'll be a great Halloween. That's perfect. Otherwise, Amanda gets to stay at home. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all.

Amanda, Adam, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. And our thanks to our pal Travis McElroy. That's it for this episode of the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thanks to Reddit users Wilcox Chatham and Drucifer27 for naming the cases in this episode. And our very special thanks to our friend Travis McElroy for participating in this episode. He made the drive from Cincinnati. We could not have been more grateful to see our pal Travis McElroy for participating in this episode. He made the drive from Cincinnati. We could not have been more grateful to see our pal Travis backstage.

We were tired from our own travel. Travis is perhaps never tired. Hard to say. No, right, exactly. He really injected some life into us. It was just- He's a human shot of adrenaline to the heart. It was really great to see him.

He was so, so hilarious on the show. We were really, really happy to have Trav there. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast, created by John Hodgman and Jesse Thorne. Our touring producer was the great Laura Valk. This episode recorded by our pal Stephen Colon. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman and on TikTok at Judge John Hodgman Pod. And get over to YouTube at Judge John Hodgman Pod on YouTube and smash that like,

smash that subscribe and go gently on the notifications. But hit them all if you don't mind and spread the word. We're really happy to be posting full episodes live up there on YouTube and you can check them out at Judge John Hodgman Pod at YouTube. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.