Judge John Hodgman - Live from Portland, OR

Episode Date: February 22, 2023

This week’s episode was recorded live in front of an audience at Revolution Hall in Portland, OR! Our first case is BROCCO-LEADING THE WITNESS: Alan brings the case against his wife Christy. Alan wants to introduce broccoli into their 14-month-old daughter’s diet. Christy has a phobia of broccoli, and doesn’t want any in the house unless she’s out of town. But Alan wants to serve it to their daughter more frequently! PLUS: Swift Justice featuring the legendary Corin Tucker of Sleater-Kinney!Thanks to reddit user u/MagicApe for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. This episode was recorded live at Revolution Hall in Portland, Oregon. It was another stop on our Frontier Justice Tour of the West, and it featured the great Corin Tucker of Slater Kinney. So let's go to the stage at Revolution Hall. Portland, Oregon, you've come to us desperate for justice, and we're here at Revolution Hall to deliver it. Let's bring out our first set of litigants. Please welcome Alan and Christy. Tonight's case, Brocco leading the witness.

Alan brings the case against his wife Christy. Alan wants to introduce broccoli into the diet of their 14-month-old daughter. Christy has a phobia of broccoli and doesn't want any in the house unless she's out of town. Alan wants to serve it to their daughter more frequently. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference. Well, you know, in the Dark Phoenix saga, Jean Grey destroyed a whole planet in the guise of Dark Phoenix in order to power herself, leading to her execution by the Shire Empire. And the people who lived on that planet,

they were never named, but are commonly known among comic book fans as the Shire Empire. And the people who lived on that planet, they were never named, but are commonly known among comic book fans as the Broccoli People. But I'm not sure that anyone else is going to get that one. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Alan and Christy, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God or whatever? I do. I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that earlier on he

not only made a there's a lot of food trucks in Portland joke, but he also immediately undercut it? Absolutely. I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Alan and Christy, you may be seated for an immediate summary of judgments in one of yours favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced while I entered the courtroom? Alan, why don't you go first?

Alan, have you seen the Star Wars show Andor? I have not seen the Star Wars show Andor. No, really? Christy, have you seen it? I have not. Okay. Well, never mind. Anyway. Do you have a guess? It sounds like a Patton Oswalt monologue from a show I have not seen. It sounds like a Patton Oswalt monologue from a show Alan has never seen. I'm writing that down now.

Christy? What is your guess, if I may ask? I have no idea, but I'm gonna go with what I know right now with the 14-month-old. So I'm gonna say Tag from Go Dog Go, season three. Oh, sounds more like first season before they really dialed in the character, but... All guesses are wrong. I was quoting from my friend and fellow Maximum Fun podcaster, Elliot Kalin, from a telephone call I had with him today as I walked back from the laundromat here in Portland, Oregon, saying, I need a cultural reference for broccoli.

If I quote Albert Cubby Broccoli, the producer of the James Bond movies, am I going to be canceled? And Elliot said, I don't know about that, but, and then he said that long sentence, do you know what comic book the Dark Phoenix Saga was in? I do not. Wow. Christy? I do not. All right. I'm frankly a little alarmed by the lack of gasping, but that's fine.

You can look it up when you get home. Let's get to the case in the meantime. Needless to say that when we broadcast this podcast, there are going to be men screaming at their phones. And luckily they shall never be heard. Anyway, who seeks justice in this court before me? I do. Alan, what is the nature of the justice you seek? You want to feed this broccoli to your child?

I do. So we try to introduce a couple new vegetables a week into her diet in different preparations. Okay. Most she doesn't like. Souffle, omelet. Yeah, saute, roast. Okay. Whatever works.

And one week I brought home some broccoli. Right. And we never have it because I know that Christy does not like broccoli. and we never have it because I know that Christy does not like broccoli. Does not like broccoli or has a stronger adverse relationship with broccoli? I'm asking Christy.

Much stronger than distaste. Much stronger than distaste. Phobia level. Phobia level. Describe how you feel when broccoli is around you i mean i don't mean maybe that's too no i okay i thought i was triggering you i apologize no uh so there's definitely some physical anxiety symptoms like my heart races a little bit tightens up in my chest so that's part of. But mainly it's like strong disgust. Like I need to get away from it.

Has that always been the case for you? As long as I can remember. Really? Yeah. And did your parents try to make you eat broccoli? You know, they never, they probably asked me to try it. They never forced anything. But I remember it being in our house a lot. My dad really liked broccoli. It was always steamed. And so this like smell was so strong. It's gross. It's disgusting.

It's gross. Yeah. You never believe a vegetable could fart. But now you realize. You weren't expecting it from broccoli. Of course. May I ask what do you do for a living? I am a clinical psychologist.

And I specialize in cognitive behavioral therapy for people with anxiety and traumatic stress disorders. So it would be fair to say that you know whereof you speak. But you don't toss around phobic level lightly. I don't. Can you describe what it is about broccoli? I mean, the

smell we've established is farting. Can you describe what it is about broccoli that just gets you the wrong way? I have a phobia, and I didn't know about it until they closed the 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea ride at Walt Disney World, which I had been in once as a kid, and I remember leaving with a very disquieted feeling, because robots should not be underwater. That's not where they belong.

robots should not be underwater. That's not where they belong. And when they closed it, everyone started posting videos of their ride on that fake submarine through that lagoon of Westworld androids. And I felt my heart racing and I felt every hair on my arms and neck stand up. And I had to turn, I closed the thing.

And to this day, I still feel I might fall into that lagoon full of robots at any moment. If I take a wrong step on this stage, I just would know that they're down there reaching for me. That's how I describe my phobia.

How would you describe your phobia of broccoli? And let the record show,'s still here, too. I think, so the odor is a big part of it, but the visual is as much of the disgust and, like, anxiety response for me. Like, there's just something about those tiny, green little flecks.

Yeah. And they're bunched up and they get everywhere. They're like little polyps even. They are. Little growths. Yeah. Like I remember as a kid, if they used the same knife to cut the broccoli and then slice my apple and there was one of those little green pieces on it, it was done.

Like I couldn't eat it. Yeah. This is probably why your parents didn't allow you to read the dark phoenix saga potentially like they were doing you a service doctor has thou ever considered healing thyself not in this area no what would it take for you if you were counseling someone who wanted to eat broccoli or be around broccoli while their daughter was being nourished? What counsel would you offer? I feel like I want to disagree with the dispute a little bit because I am willing to work on this. Okay.

So what Alan submitted was that I was unwilling, and I'm open to this. I'm open to facing this fear. Oh, your husband spoke for you and interpreted your feelings for you? Well, this is a very unusual case, Jesse Clemson. I think we're charting some new legal territory. So I do want to say I am open to working on this, but my disagreement with him is how he went about this. Okay. Which was monstrous.

You're saying that the way... He told her it was an airplane, goddammit! She couldn't let those people die. You're saying the way that Alan introduced Broccoli was monstrous. Yes. Alan, how did you introduce... Here's my guess. You dressed up as Broccoli

and hid in a closet until she came home, feeling that you would shock her out of her phobia. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org, and they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning,

causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real-life situations, and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world, and you get to hear this sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world. And you get to hear the sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird, hyperacademic chore.

It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear the sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft.

And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're made in, made in. The Rohan duck, made in, made in. Riders of Rohan, duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop? You got it. Made in, made in. Made in has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years. They make the stuff that chefs need. Their carbon steel cookware is the best of cast iron, the best of stainless clad.

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Yeah. If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit MadeInCookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N Cookware.com. How did you actually introduce broccoli, Alan? You're not a monster, are you? I purchased a head of broccoli at the Fred Meyer. Oh, you're an expert! And I put it in the refrigerator. I believe you have some evidence that you shared with us,

some photographic evidence. An artist depiction. How did you get my friend Dan from college's phone number? I contend that this representation is inaccurate, and that I only purchased one head of broccoli. I remember

more heads of broccoli. Let the record show that this manipulated image shows a crisper drawer in a refrigerator entirely full of broccoli. I will also, for those of you listening at home, you can see this photo on MaximumFun.org

on our Instagram page at Judge John Hodgman, where you will get to see the exact brand of refrigerator I have. This is uncanny. So this is an artist representation. You had one head of broccoli in the refrigerator. And then you said to Christy, go open the refrigerator. I got you a surprise. At the time, I did not know this was a phobia-level situation.

How long have you been married? How long have you been married? 11 and a half years. Oh, I see. Had this subject ever come up before in your life? I knew she didn't like it, so I never brought it home. That's very kind of you. Until you had a daughter, and then you're like,

f*** it, I'm bringing that broccoli back. It's been more than a decade. I'm finally going to bring that broccoli back into the house and put it in the refrigerator. Tired of being controlled. After the fifth sweet potato preparation, I was ready to stretch. You have another piece of evidence that you submitted. Let me see that, please. Oh. This is Ada.

Does the city of Portland give your children these hats? No, but it's a great idea. It's a perfect black watch cap in the Oregon style. You should give her a fake beard. That would be fun. All right.

Take the cuteness away. I'm tired of it. Can I have some charcuterie? She does love cheese. So, tell me how you felt when you saw the broccoli in the refrigerator. Christy. It was not good. So Alan didn't give me any warning, any notice.

I remember more than one head of broccoli. It filled the crisper, like, all the way. So I got home. It was the end of the day. It was a long day. Sure. And I go into the kitchen, and I open the fridge, and there it is, like, staring at me. Sure.

With its many, many tiny green eyes. It was terrible. It was terrible. And it felt, I think, especially intrusive in my home. Because it's true. We've been like a broccoli-free family for 15 years. There's never been broccoli in my house.

And so it totally caught me off guard to see it for one. I was like shocked. Right. Totally disgusted. Did you feel betrayed? A little bit. I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but would you say that? You know, Alan is usually a very thoughtful guy,

and I was shocked that he would do this without telling me. What do you think about Alan's argument that he didn't realize exactly how repulsed you were by Brockley? Do you think that that's possible, that he didn't know? I think it is unlikely. I don't think this is something that I hide. Was it in your vows? It was not a part of our vows. Because if you felt really strongly about it,

you might have, I mean, I don't want to critique, look, you seem happily married, but if you could do it all over again, I would advise, yes, Jesse, what were you saying? No one reads the licensing agreement. Alan, how do you feel hearing Christy describe her reaction this way? Proud of yourself? I obviously never would have done it this way

if I had known that this was such a strong and yet here you sit what way then do you propose you do do it going forward from here by whatever terms you and her would like to establish this isn't you and her would like to establish.

This isn't... This isn't apology hour with your therapist. Although, I accept your apology. Well, I know there is a way to approach phobias, but I'm not the expert in doing so. I was waiting for you to say that. What do you do for a living, if I may ask? I'm a software developer.

I see. So, Christy, I would presume you would like there to be no broccoli. That would be the easiest option. That would be the ideal. Yeah. How are you with the other vegetables in the brassica family? no broccoli? That would be the easiest. That would be the ideal. Yeah. How are you with the other vegetables in the brassica family? How do you feel about cauliflower?

Not great, but not as disgusting as broccoli. It looks like a pale brain. It's gross. What about Brussels sprouts? They smell bad. They do.

I can have them on my plate. I can eat maybe one or two, and that's it. As long as you don't have to eat an apple that was sliced for the same night. What about broccolini? It's too close. Too close. It's anything with those green florets. Yes.

Do you eat vegetables otherwise? I do. What's your favorite other vegetable? Don't wait for the translation. Answer the question. I like asparagus. Asparagus? That's one of the stinkiest.

Depending on if you have that gene. Sorry, John. I am totally hung up on the fact that in Portland, asparagus is an applause line. These are all wonderful vegetables, some of which Christy is more tolerant of than others. None of them are broccoli. Why not just not do broccoli?

I mean, it's a superfood. We all get it. But so is kale. You okay with kale? Yes, but I prefer it raw, not cooked or steamed. Well, okay, but for your child. Kale is okay in the house. That would be okay? Yes. If you open your refrigerator and you saw some kale in there? No problem. Okay. So what is it about the broccoli that, why don't you just say no broccoli? I guess we could, but I feel like I really want to make the rounds of vegetables to see what she likes. And if she really likes it, then it'd be one more vegetable in the arsenal.

All right. You know what? That's a reasonable answer to my surprise. No, no. you're fine. Christy, you said that you are willing to work on this. In what way are you willing to work on this? I am willing to work on this with me being the one that gets to decide how I go about this. So I get to choose the exposure practices.

I get to choose the exposure practices. I get to choose the timeline. And if you had a patient whom you were advising, what would you advise? What would the practice be? I mean, I think I would first work on sort of the why. Why is it important for you to do this so we can have that in front of us the whole time? Because it's hard and uncomfortable. And then we would come together on sort of what their ultimate goal is and come up with lots of little steps to create a fear hierarchy, basically. Let me follow up with a question. Why? Why is it important for you to do this? To work on this? Yeah. Why is it important for you to work on? To work on this? Yeah, why is it important for you to work on this?

Thank you. Great phrasing. I should have thought of that. I mean, I think there's a little bit of embarrassment for this for me. And so I would like to do this so I don't have to feel that way. And also I feel bad blocking Ada from food that she might like. You know, and Alan is wanting to do this, and I want to support him in that. He's been great with getting all of Ada's food together. He's the cook in our house,

and I don't want to block him from doing that either. So that's part of my willingness to work on it. And what are the steps that you foresee taking to get to where you want to be? I mean, I'd probably have to... Does it make you uncomfortable to even think about it? A little bit. Yeah. Let's go there anyway, together. This is the work.

Imagining a first step on this fear ladder. This is a perfect environment for a therapeutic encounter. I agree. I feel very safe here. I mean, I would imagine that this is something like your own office. Pretty much, yeah. Right, exactly. You know, it may be going to the grocery store and just looking at the broccoli, honestly.

Right. That might be my first step. That would be the first step. Yeah. And if I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me rule? Start with looking at broccoli in the grocery store and then... Buying it it uh-huh looking at it at my house in my refrigerator right um practice cutting it but not having

to do anything else with it because the like the steamed part is way worse so i think starting with raw would be easier for me sure um i don't know i think my ultimate goal is feeling comfortable enough buying it chopping it and giving it to ada but i don't think i want to work towards ever eating it and what do you think is the time frame like roughly how old is ada again 14 months so um that's a little bit more than a year. So like 21 years? I could probably achieve it in that timeline. Maybe three to six months. Three to six months?

I think that's fairly fast. It might be. You can hear people are excited. Alan, this all sounds perfectly reasonable. It is. Okay, then. Then what are we doing here? I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision,

given that there has been legal surrender on stage. Do you have anything that you would like to say before I go into my chambers, which, by the way, contains broccoli? It's part of our rider. We asked for cut up vegetables with some hummus and some, I mean, it's, you know, green room garbage. But the point is, I want you to know that I will be with broccoli for a period of time, for a little while, but I'm not going to touch it or anything. I'm not going to like bring it out here and go, woo! I appreciate that. Yeah, no, I appreciate you. Hey, Christy, want some apple slices? Is there anything you would like to say to me or to Christy before I go into my broccoli-laden chambers to make my decision?

I think I appreciate her openness here. Oh, that's so sweet. All right. I'll be back in a moment to destroy you. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Christy, how are you feeling about your chances here? I'm feeling pretty good. Are you really ready for this? I think I am.

Even with all those nasty little florets? I think I am. Even with all those nasty little florets? I think I am. Even all those stinky steams? Sorry, I don't mean to. I did mean to. Alan, have you ever heard the expression, if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything? Sorry, I mean, how do you feel about your chances here?

She's been telling me she's going to crush me all day. And I'm fairly certain it's happened. You're like, ha-ha, not if I crush her myself. happened. You're like, ha ha, not if I crush him myself. Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say when he returns. Please rise as

Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and delivers his verdict. First of all, I just want to say thank you, Christy, for being here and to talk so openly about something that scares you so much. It's very brave, and you did a great job.

And I also want to say, Alan, you're not a monster. I mean, you clearly are someone who, there could have been a partner, a spouse, I dare say a husband, come on here and say, but broccoli is really good and I really want it to be a part of the, I think it should be on my terms, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you obviously have listened to your partner

and respect her and her boundaries in a very kind way, to the point that I feel like there's been some witness tampering. I feel like someone got to you. Bailiff, Jesse, I think we need to increase our security measures with our litigants, because, I mean, you were in our basement all day I feel like separated that's our that's our procedure but I guess maybe you talk to each other because obviously come to some agreement without my help but I

will I will say this I think that three to six months is a very ambitious timeframe. As you know, I am a clinical psychologist. Dealing with behavioral issues, cognitive behavioral therapy and so forth. I'm not trying to tell you your business, but I'm certainly saying give yourself as much time as you need. In this regard, I'm obviously finding it in your favor, and when I bang the scabble, I will say so. In the meantime, I want to commend you, Alan, for being a good partner and listening and understanding.

Do you have any phobias? Oh, wait a minute. Just the usual existential things sure it's not a phobia you are going to die it's going to happen. But in the meantime, I hope you enjoy your lives together with broccoli in moderation.

And I just, you know, I do have to say, Christy, the one place I disagree with you is when you said, I don't want to deny my daughter broccoli. said, I don't want to deny my daughter broccoli. There are going to be many things that your child speaks to with their clinical psychologist later on about everything you did wrong. And ultimately, if you decide you can't have broccoli in the house, you tried and it didn't work, and you enforce my ban on broccoli in the house, which you have preclearance for, should you not get to where you want to be? I hope that you do, but should you not? Don't worry, you won't be damaging your daughter.

You'll be doing her a favor. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge Sean Hodgman rules. That is all. Alan Christie, thanks for joining us on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast. Thank you. us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney,

is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-H. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit.

No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. We are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Please welcome Caleb and Kate. Caleb brings the case against his friend Kate. Kate hates NASA and space exploration. And she isn't shy about saying so.

Caleb says space exploration is good and worthwhile. And he's tired of Kate's constant NASA bashing. It's pretty on point, actually. I mean, yeah, fair. Well, which of you seeks justice in this courtroom who brings the case actually that's my husband who's in the third row who has somehow gotten

he manipulated both of you up here absolutely 100,000% to talk about this and is it Kate that I am speaking to now yes I'm Kate Kate why do you dislike NASA I take it back why do you hate NASA a couple reasons

you got time no that's the whole point here take all the time you need why do you hate NASA? A couple reasons. Please. You got time? No. That's the whole point here. Okay. No, take all the time you need. Okay. So primarily,

every time I see a headline like NASA awards a $57 million contract to build roads on the moon, I wonder things like, aren't there people who haven't eaten today? And don't most Americans read at a sixth grade level or lower? So that's a big part of it. How do you think we're going to get the moon cheese to market? That's a supply chain issue.

Sorry, I don't know a lot about this. I read at a sixth grade level. Well, and then the second part is, you know we have these beautiful telescope images and we learn from a really young age to reach for the stars right? Sure. Like literally and you know. We're really lucky that we just have those telescopes floating around up there. Yeah. There are telescopes floating around up there. Yeah.

Look, everyone. Kate's right. You know, like, I understand what she, I'm not disagreeing with her. Telescopes get up there somehow, though. Yeah. Are you saying that Reach for the stars is the wrong message? Yeah, exactly.

Fair enough. Like, if we were like, why don't we explore the rest of the world that we have? Maybe we'd figured out how to, like, you know, get garbage bags out of the Mariana Trench or something. Right. Reach for the trenches. Yes. That's fair. Yeah.

That makes a lot of sense. Right. Caleb. Yes. You are in favor of space exploration. Is that right? I makes a lot of sense. Caleb. Yes. You are in favor of space exploration, is that right? I'm in favor of space... Because you love Elon Musk, isn't that true, sir? Don't wait for the translation! You love Musk, and you hate the trench!

Who doesn't hate a trench, though? Business they have. I mean, what is your argument for pro-space exploration? Kate makes a lot of great points about all the things that we need to fix here on Earth. There's tons of them. But NASA has developed so many technologies that have helped us. Light-emitting diodes are a huge one that have helped save electricity in our environment. And things like artificial limbs

for amputees, smoke detectors, fireproof clothing. The phrase failure is not an option. That haunts me every time I fail. So, yeah, there's just so many different inventions.

Arguably, we only have ed harris because of nasa yeah and tom hanks as well i hadn't even thought about so um yeah all of our points are really great but i think it's just maybe a little misguided considering the budget that we spend for other things in our government, such as our military and things like that, to hate on NASA so much when it's so small. Sure. What about the pay that goes to those clowns in Congress? Am I right? I didn't say it.

Oh, they're always lining their pockets, those clowns in Congress. Buying more seltzer bottles. Kate, NASA is being, does not have the funding or public support that it used to have. I mean, truthfully, aren't you kind of kicking a government agency while it's down? I really do think that

they should be protecting us from missiles, or like, not missiles, but like... Asteroids. Thank you. Yeah. Sometimes two come at once. You might have an armageddon and a deep impact yes exactly and so that that makes a lot of sense to me you know but just like you know they're trying to like i don't know make all sorts of equipment for people who are at the prime of their health and then you know we find ancillary benefits

that get pushed out to the public. But if they had spent at least a fraction of the budget solving problems that we all have here, it would be... Should there be no space exploration at all? Not that taxpayers pay for. Oh, you love Elon Musk. No, I don't. for. Oh, you love Elon Musk.

Corrine Tucker, what do you think of this case? I think that we have to take into account the amount of movies, the great movies that are made about space exploration. Good point. Hey, have you seen that Star Wars show, Andor? About space?

It's part of the Space Wars. You haven't seen it? No, but I have seen Apollo 13. Okay. I've seen, you know. So we need space exploration for the sheer drama. I think so. All right. I understand.

Actually, can I take that answer back and supplement it? Sure. That happens in law all the time um so it was in the magna carta backseas maybe maybe yes it's called an amendment um but um man don't sass the bailiff shut your pie hole there there's there's so many like space germs out there, too. What if we bring something back? Who knows? Wait, what did you just say?

Space germs. She's completely ignoring the pressing issue of trench germs. What we genuinely do have a problem with trench germs is the permafrost melts, we're going to be exposed to a whole bunch of sleeping, dormant, hibernating germs. But there is also space germs. I have a new phobia now. Caleb, I have a prompt here on this piece of paper that I was given to ask this question.

In your opinion, sir, is this actually about NASA or is it about Kate hassling you? Well, it's been a longstanding tradition in our friendship to hassle each other. So I'm okay with that. Yeah. So, but is she hassling you because you love NASA so much? I think there's some give and take. I definitely hassle her for her hate of NASA. It's all in good fun. Kate, what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor? I thought about this.

I would like you to rule that Caleb and my husband Chris, who submitted this debate, who is sitting in the third row back there, Chris in the third row. That they wear... Let in the audience pointing at other people he knows who he is

but if you could rule that they would wear t-shirts that they either buy or design that say, there is no planet B out in public at least once a month for a year, I think that would be justice. Sure. All right, I'll enter that into my consideration. Jesse, do you think your friend from college could maybe throw a T-shirt together?

I mean, he'd have to get a little time off his job at PayPal, but yeah. Okay. Corinne, what do you think about there is no Planet B solution? I think that's a good point. That's a good point. That's a fair...

What would you have me rule, Caleb, then? Well, I like this clothing idea, but I want Kate's loungewear, her Sunday pajamas, to be NASA pajamas. Just for when she's relaxed and she can think about it. That sounds like torture. Yeah. That seems unfair.

I don't know, John. A lot of those pajamas glow in the dark. That seems unfair. I don't know, John. A lot of those pajamas glow in the dark. That's pretty cool. What other technologies do we have? Do we have Velcro because of NASA? Everyone out here the whole time was just going, say Tang. Say Tang. Say Tang. Say Tang.

I know. I was going to say Tang, but I haven't seen Tang anywhere. Do they still make it? So here's the thing. They didn't develop Tang for the space program, and that's why they wanted him to say Tang, but I haven't seen Tang anywhere. Do they still make it? So here's the thing. They didn't develop Tang for the space program, and that's why they wanted him to say it, so they could correct him. That's what they get off on. Corin Tucker, did you ever have Tang growing up?

Oh, yes. I loved it. I know, me too. You know what I liked? Just eating the powder. We all did it. Right? I don't even think they make it anymore. Oh, you're still here.

Hello. Kate and Caleb. Have either of you seen the Star Wars TV show called Andor? Yeah. Because it's called Andor. But I have this idea for a tagline or a motto for the show that is also my ruling. Why not both?

Massive pajamas and there is no Planet B. I love it. We as a planet should be able to do both. Take care of the trenches and explore the stars. We may need them. So that's my ruling. I split the baby in half. Tang.

Caleb and Kate, please welcome Greg and Whitney. Greg brings the case against his wife, Whitney. Their family has a shared Google calendar. When Whitney adds events to the calendar, she often sets an early start time to accommodate travel. Hmm. Fair enough. Sometimes she does, and sometimes she doesn't. Oh.

Whitney says this practice keeps the family punctual. Greg says it's confusing. Greg, Whitney, welcome to the program. Which one of you seeks justice? Greg, it's you. It is I. Whitney sometimes puts things in the calendar with travel time included. Yes. Is it marked as travel time?

No. Aha. What sort of things? For instance, if we're going to go to a movie, maybe that movie starts at 7.15, it would just be in the calendar as maybe 6.30. Now, she will tell you that she will also put the starting time in the notes. Correct. So you can look and see, okay, 6.30, that's when we're going to leave. Movie starts at 7.15.

Fine. But she's not consistent. Not consistent. Sometimes you just don't know. Whitney, how come you schedule things early for travel time sometimes and sometimes you don't? I would say that it depends on the

type of activity that we're going to do. I am interested in hearing your theories about this. So, a movie, right? Sure, I've heard of them. Starts at a specific time. He was just talking about them. I know.

What movie did you see? Oh, interesting. It's been a while. You've never seen a movie in your life, sir. Don't wait for the translation. Answer the question. It's been quite a while since we've seen a movie. I think it was Star Wars.

Wasn't it an episode of... No. Sir, that movie came out in 1977. We've been married a long time. They didn't... They didn't have Google then. That's true. They had public funding for school lunches and NASA.

What time did you set the calendar for this event? The Judge John Hodgman Live Justice at Revolution Hall in Portland, Oregon. It started doors at 7 p.m. Showtime, 8 p.m. 5 o'clock. 5 p'clock. 5pm. Where do you

live? The moon? We live 30 minutes away. To be fair, John, the roads on the moon are really bad. That's right. We need to do something about that. I know. We need to requisition some money for those roads. And I would say that because I knew that we would be on the show,

there needed to be, like, we were here early and, you know. A little extra time. Buffer time. Because apparently my family thinks that they can teleport to places in which, if the movie starts at 7, they don't need to leave the house until 6.59. And I'm like, we need to get popcorn. We got to get...

Wait, they have popcorn here? No, at the movies. Oh, at the movies. Right, okay. I got excited for a second. Corin, what goes on in your family? Do you share a calendar? Does this happen?

We have not successfully, we've been married a very long time, and we have not successfully shared a Google calendar. Why not? I put things in it all the time, and my partner is unable to read it. And we text back and forth, and I'm like, I put it in there.

He's like, nope, nope. You mean he's unable to read it or he's unable to subscribe to it? I think he's very distrustful of Google. He even told me he bought a special phone just for Google and that that's where

he was going to read the calendar. I know you and your husband love each other very much. I don't think this is a red flag that your husband's buying a second phone and saying he needs it to read the Google Calendar. Well, honey, you leave me no choice. I need a burner a week. Well, honey, leave me no choice.

I need a burner a week. That's not who your husband is. I know that. We hope not. But I'm impressed that you follow the Google calendar and that's a good way to communicate. I think maybe there's just a 10 a 10 minute ahead of time kind of general rule i'd be happy with any kind of rule i mean it is an issue there is this issue of do you deny that you are inconsistent and how you apply nope so why agreed i submitted evidence

oh okay let's take a look at the evidence. Thank you. Hang on. I'll do this family feud style. Show me evidence. Oh, that should be the last one. Excuse me. We'll go back in time.

That's the last straw. We can just go with that one if you like. I think this is the one that we have. This is the one. This is the last straw. So the evidence showed. First of all, thanks for sharing all these email addresses. Well, you know, it says **** at GM.

Who knows what that is? Could be anything. Thanks, by the way, for sharing it with the at-home audience now. We'll bleep it out and redact it when we post it online. Let the record show my submittals were blacked out. Well, I hope that we'll take a look at those in a moment. What are you trying to prove here with this? There are some entries that show a starting time and nothing. There are some entries that show a starting time on the entry

and the starting time of the event. This one was a brunch we were invited to, which said 11.30, and that's all it said. When we got to their porch at 11.30 and knocked on the door, I realized, I found out that the brunch was at noon. And they were not ready for us. They were not dressed. What had they been up to to prepare for this brunch yeah I mean

what were they serving sir one of them is a midwife was this one of those sex brunches one of them was a midwife did you say one of them is a midwife and her husband was helping

and so they'd been up all night and we're just recovering from that and trying to get ready for our brunch as they weren't dressed and they were resting around getting ready and here we are on their front porch knocking a half hour early for a social engagement which was very embarrassing for me and i had no idea because of this ambiguous calendar entry how do you how do you respond to

this evidence whitney It happened. Yep. I would also say. But when you're walking up to the porch at that point you can take Craig aside and say I have to tell you something. We're technically half an hour early. It was unclear because of the chat. There was a lot of like

should we start 11.45, 12, 12.15, 12.30, right? There was back and forth. Was the chat with you and the midwife? You were calling the midwife? And the other attendees of the brunch. Yes. PBS. You ever see the show All Creatures Great and Small? Yeah.

I don't have a joke for that one. I just really like the remake. So, all right. Nightmare Before Christmas movie with Callens? What's that? That was later the same day. Those are the kids going. I don't understand how this came.

Oh, I see. It's overlap. Yeah, it's on top of. Right. Who directed that movie? That's Tim Burton. No, it wasn't Tim Burton. He worked on the movie, but it was not the director.

I think I know. All right. I'm finding Whitney's favorite. Whitney, I'm going to say this right now. You've got to make it consistent. The whole point of this thing is to be clear. You've got to make it consistent so that there's a rule that can be followed. Now, Greg, before I completely dismiss you,

I neglected to ask this question. Greg, tell me about your, quote, illogical temporal optimism, end quote. ITO, as it's put here. ITO is a term that I invented after talking to my brother. No, you invented it. I did, yes. Oh, I see. After talking to my brother when he first had a child

and they were trying to get several things done during the day and he would say, we're going to get up and we're going to go to the park for a little while, and then we're going to go out and get some brunch, and then we're going to go out to the library for reading time, and then we're going to go out and do a little hike up a nearby mountain, and then we're going to go to the... And you just can't do that many things in one day, especially with a small child. Don't tell me what I can't do, Greg. It was a figurative, figurative person. So you can sometimes be too optimistic about what you can get done.

I walked to the laundromat today. A mile and one half a mile. Did my laundry and then came back and then I had lunch with Tony. And then I came here and sound checked and did a show. It's possible. Then you are not suffering from ITO, but some people do.

I see. It's thinking you can do too much during a day. Yes, illogically you can. Or in a short period of time. Right. And Whitney, are you accusing Whitney of having this disorder? Yeah, if we're going to talk. No, no, no.

What? She uses it against me. No. No. I invented the term, but it's used against me. I say, we can leave at this time. It'll be fine. And she says, oh, you've got ITO.

Yeah. That's what she sounds like. He doesn't have the realistic expectation of all the things that you have to do to get to the place in which. Right. Right. To get to the place very early. Hey.

So that we can relax. Early is on time. On time is late, and late is unacceptable. So that is my mantra. Look, I absolutely agree with you, Whitney, but you shouldn't be knocking on the door half an hour before the brunch starts. You knew what you were doing, and you need to be consistent. Every part of me wants to rule against you, and I do order you. I do order you to be consistent. Every part of me wants to rule against you, and I do order you, I do order you to be consistent

going forward, because the whole point of this is clarity of communication. But I can't rule against you because you didn't do what Greg did, which was say that Tim Burton directed A Nightmare Before Christmas, which was directed by Henry Selick, the director of Coraline. I find in favor of Whitney and everyone. Reprogram your brains to know that. Let's now welcome Ariel and Adriana. Ariel brings the case against her wife, Adriana. When the two of them decompress after the workday, Ariel likes to putter. Adriana likes to lounge. When Ariel asks her wife to get up to do something or help

out, Adriana will often reply she can't because there's a pet on her. Ariel wants to know, is I have a pet on me an acceptable excuse? Who comes seeking justice before me in this court? I do. And you are Ariel. I am Ariel. And what is the justice that you seek? I would like to set parameters around the concept of whether I have a pet on me is an appropriate excuse for not helping around the house. Because the state of our life is such that we have three very human-focused pets, and the moment anyone sits down, there will be a pet on them. And so if we were to accept that as an excuse for everything, nothing would get done.

How do you respond, Adriana? Adriana, excuse me. So there's an element of risk here for me because one of our pets is very violent. We have a cat that, like, she doesn't, like, lay on you. She'll sit with her face on your face, and she's bitten me in the face when I move before. So, like, I need to know, like, I totally understand. Can we help you find a safe space?

Oh no, she's, you know, she's violent, but she's otherwise perfect. She's a cat. That's what they do. That's what they tell you. That's what they tell you at the shelter. Like take this one. That's what the cats tell you. Yes.

I'm violent, but I'm perfect. I'm perfect. So what's a mortgage? Serve me. That's, that's the shelter. Like, take this one. That's what the cats tell you. Yes. I'm violent, but I'm perfect. I'm perfect. So what's a mortgage? Serve me. That's the cat. So, like, I need to have a parameter where it's like, I'll be laying down more. That's what I do. I'm a lounger.

She's a putterer. So, like, at what point is it worth me risking my face to get up and, like, help around the house? When, like, sometimes you're just puttering to putter um and so like you're doing your thing a big accusation it is a big accusation but it's true like sometimes you're just like doing your thing and i might not necessarily need to like risk my life to get up to be hyperbolic hyperbolic um and And then other times, like, you need help. Like, you need someone to open a door for you. I get it.

I just need framework. Okay. Does this only happen with the cat that's a face biter? No. Well, I need to know more. Like, you have a cat named Face Bitey. And then what other animals do you have? So the facebiting cat is named Opal.

She's a tortie for cat owners out there that might frame it up. Then we have a little tiger stripe cat. His name is Hugo. He's too smart for his own good. And he's also very clingy. And then we have like a 50-pound hound named Helen who will also just pile on there. Ariel, did you know that these were the names of your pets? Oh, I named them all.

Oh, you did? Okay. Well, everyone but Opal. Opal came with her name. Oh, okay. But you like these pets. You engage with them. I adore them. This is not an issue of jealousy.

They will cuddle with you as well. There is a little jealousy because in the evening, because Adriana has been sitting for longer, the pets will gravitate to her. And then I sit down 20 minutes later, all three of them are already clinging to her, and I get no pet cuddles. Right. Okay. Does Adriana have a second phone for the pets? Do you?

No. You're the only one with two phones. Yeah, I do. Work phone. Oh, okay. Ariel, tell me about the puttering what does puttering involve yeah so I'm a tidying shark so at the end of the work day I've had I like this so at the end of the work day I'm often like sitting down locked in virtual meetings most of the work day I work from home about 60 percent of the time so if I'm in a virtual meeting for 80 percent of the workday for an hour or so after the workday I want to grab little things from this room start the what's cooking for dinner tidy up a little bit to release that energy from what are all day. What are the things you want to grab from the room

and move around? It's just like, I just love hearing people talk about tidying. I love it so much. Like maybe there's a magazine on a coffee table. It's a family podcast, John. There's a magazine on a coffee table that's a little askew. You just want to square it off.

Square it off. All ages. Well, there will be a series of cups throughout the house because Adriana leaves cups everywhere. The mail will make it into the house on the dining table but will not be open, so it needs to be opened and sorted and recycled most often. Or there will be a series of coats on the dining room table

where they don't belong. And so all of those things need to go away. Did you say coats on the dining room? Coats on the dining room table. Corinne, I need you to take over. Ask whatever questions you want.

That's serious. I think it's a little bit serious. Is there something routinely that Adriana, you like to do that could help out with something routinely that adriana you like to do that could help out with the routine at night do you like to cook at all or yeah like i we split the cooking like 50 50 typically um i am a huge yard putterer so i spend a lot of my time that i'm not prone outside fixing up our yard cleaning up, cleaning up like all the dog poop that gets left out. Um, like doing all of that exterior maintenance and I'll clean the floors. Like I, I do chores. I am messy and well hydrated. I have a lot of cups that I leave around, but like,

I, I like to think I pull my weight. It's just, it's like more like I do it all and I will like go and go and go and go and like forget to eat and like do my work and just like plow through. And then when I stop, I stop. Like I am an object at rest and I am on the couch. Right. And if I'm covered in pets. And then you become a cat head.

Yeah, and then I become just a warming element for whatever lives in the house. Yes, but coats on the dining room table. Do you deny it? I don't. We often eat on the couch, though. It's like not often a used space. That's not helping for me.

It's a flat space. No, I eat on the couch all the time. Absolutely. When you say we, you mean you and the cats? Me. There's a dog usually right here watching me. Like, what are you doing?

Like, sometimes like trying to get in there. Yeah, it sounds a little dangerous. Yeah, it's, you know, there's every creature in the house, including the humans, aren't a cat. I believe that you sent in some evidence of the animals on top of you. We did, yeah. So in the style of Family Feud, show me the pets. Oh. We did, yes. So in the style of Family Feud, show me the pets.

So Ariel, there is you with a cat on top of your lap. Yes, that is Opal. That is Opal. So the principle is if there is a person sitting, there will be a pet there with them. Sure. So it's just a matter of who is sitting first. What I love about this photo,

obviously they'll all be available. What I love about this photo, so there's also a photo of you, Ariana, with this is which dog? That is Helen, our dog. Yeah, Helen. Helen is snuggling with you, expressing not only love,

but in her eyes, a deep sense of comfort that she is there with you expressing not only love but in her eyes a deep sense of comfort that she is there with you whereas what's this cat's name again that's opal this is opal opal is just sitting there going like what am i even doing here why did i i can't even get i wish i was biting a face right now i got this paw dangling off the leg. I can't even get a good... I just feel like it's compelled to do this. And yet Opal will not move. Opal will not move. And you're trying to eat your food right there. Or are you trying to eat the cat?

It's not clear to me. Is this an elf situation? Answer the question. Not an elf situation. Is there more evidence, Richard Robey? Okay, let's see the next slide please oh now look at that so that's the face biting position right like that's perilous so let the record show that ariel has two cats on her lap now and helen is over there feeling

neglected and left out on the left left we have Adriana with Opal in face-biting position and Helen saying, what are you doing here? Yeah, this is tough. How could you ever get up? Also there's that Polish seltzer can just left behind. Wonder how long that's been there. Is there another slide?

Oh, this gets better and better. So this is the other cat. That's Hugo. And here's Helen. Looks like getting a piece of both of you there. Or no? Yep. Right. Fantastic.

These are all very cute pets. Any more? Keep them coming. I could do this all night. Is there another one? Oh, that's it. Okay. Round of applause for those cute animals.

Adriana, what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor? I would just like to have a grace period where if I have a pet or series of pets, it could be stratified by number of pets or time they've been on me. If Ariel asks for something that's not critical, move your cup. What kind of thing does she ask you for? Can you pick up your cups? I'll pick up my cups. Can you taste the sauce? Yeah, can i taste the sauce like i i trust you you're a very good cook right the cups will get picked up i swear it's like hand to god i will do it but right now i'm laying down with a pet on me potentially like pet might bite me if i

get up like what what are the parameters like is it i've been laying there for an hour you tell me the parameters oh you're oh this is your ideal ruling i mean my ideal ruling would be like if it is not a critical ask right and like i'm gonna get to it by the end of the evening let sleeping person with covered in pets lie very well if it's critical like hey babe i like i cannot physically get through this door. I'm up. I'm there. That's fine. I'll concede to that because that's just the proper thing to do. But I would like my rest.

Right. Ariel, why can't you get through doors? Too many coats? They're filled with coats? No, no. We have a series of baby gates because of the pets. Oh, no. And so if your hands are full, you can't get through the baby gate or the regular door,

and so I need help sometimes. To bring the sauce to the couch for your evening meal, for example? To feed your wife? Yeah, or I have my arms full of recycling or Amazon boxes, and I need the baby gate open because I don't have two hands to do it. All right. Now you know the terms of the argument Corinne what do you think what should what should I roll what's your opinion I think that um

definitely Adriana should help maybe there should be a like a a code red code red baby gate you know like some kind of tip off that this mass. Right. Baby gate needs to go up. Right. But I agree you know that there's a time when you just need to chill out in the evening and you know the cat's right there. You don't want to get him in the face. Yeah no. So if there's a resting time

You're leaning Adriana here. I am a little bit. Yeah. Right. With an exception of Code Red. The Code Red beating Baby Gates, for example. Yeah. That's interesting. Well, here's what I think. I have to walk over here to think.

I'm inclined to agree with Corin Tucker on this one. I think that if you are covered in animals, certainly in our house, we have a stupid cat. I mean a really dumb cat. I don't talk about my private life very often, but I will tell you this, our cat is dumb. I have seen the cat sitting underneath a coffee table

and then stand up and hit its head. I have looked into the cat's eyes and I have seen galaxies very far away. And there is a rule in the house that when this cat has some very particular places that she likes to be, if you are sitting on the couch with your legs on the couch and she gets up in between your knees and settles in there, then that is being called having legs.

And if you have legs, you can't do anything. You can't get up. If the dumb cat has legs and they're your legs, that's it. You're down until she moves, And sometimes she forgets to move for days. So Ariel, I really, I really feel for you because I am by nature a putterer and a tidier, and it does sound like your place is a mess, thanks to your wife. And these lazy animals that use her as a bed. They're all conspiring against you to avoid doing the work in this house. They won't even just stay in a room.

You need to have gates. And yet, I have a pet on me as a pretty good rule. It's one that I tend to believe in, as I've noted. I use it in my own house. Ultimately, though, I think I have to agree with Cora and Tucker, which is, Adriana, you get to claim I've got a pet on me unless Ariel really needs you. And Ariel can decide when that is.

And she will have a code word. And that will be code baby gate. So whether it involves a baby gate or not, if she really needs you to get up and help her, she'll just go code baby gate. And then you just take the bite. You take the bite for your wife. This is the sound of a gavel.

We'll put it in post. We'll fix it in post. of a gavel. We'll put it in post. We'll fix it in post. That's it for this week's episode. Thank you to all the litigants who joined us on stage at Revolution Hall in Portland, Oregon. Maine, we're coming for you one of these days. Evidence and photos from the show are posted on our Instagram account at instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman. Make sure to go over there, follow us, save the post, send the post, get into the comments. It's fun. It gets us into the algorithm. It's good. Also join the conversation about this week's episode on the Maximum Fun subreddit, which is over at maximumfun.reddit.com. Judge John Hodgman

was created by Jesse Thorne and me, John Hodgman. This episode was recorded by Matthew Barnhart and produced by Valerie Moffitt, Richard Robey, and Jennifer Marmer. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.