Judge John Hodgman - Live From Seattle 2019

Episode Date: February 20, 2019

This week's episode was recorded LIVE IN SEATTLE! There's the case, "May It Placebo the Court," and Swift Justice cases about making new friends, having tiles shipped to a friend's house, and smart lights. Plus music from Shabazz Palaces! Please note, the music segment of the show contains some strong language. Thank you to Sasha Zucker for naming this week's case! To suggest a title for a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, we're live on stage from Seattle, Washington, in the beautiful Neptune Theater. Let's listen. We sent out a call for disputes and you answered. We're thrilled to bring you some live justice, Seattle style. some live justice, Seattle style. That means... That means with tossed salad and scrambled eggs.

Shall we get into it? Let's bring out our first set of litigants. Please welcome Andy and Avi to the stage. Tonight's case, may it placebo the court. Andy brings the case against his friend Avi. Avi participates in clinical trials

through the Cancer Research Center where he works. Andy is worried about Avi's health and says he should stop being part of these trials. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference. When you're a mother-to-be, the sea of life is often stormy. You can smooth that sea with podcasts. Safe, effective, soothing podcasts

for anyone, anytime that storm clouds threaten. Podcasts. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in. Andy and Avi, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling,

despite the fact that he became a super soldier through a secret government program? I do. Very well, Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Andy and Avi may be seated for an immediate summary judgment. In one of yours favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I half quoted. The podcast

was not in the original quote. But the rest of it should be very plain to you where that came from. Why don't, Andy, you guess first. I'd like to guess the movie Mary and Martha from 2013. Mary and Martha from 2013.

I like it when people come with a guess, then close their ears when John is talking. Or have no idea. I don't want to tip this, but I've never heard of that movie. But nonetheless, did you direct that movie? No, it's a movie about two mothers

who are united in their common bond because their sons die of malaria. Ah, which is another emotional rollercoaster of a sentence. As the context for that comment has not yet been revealed. It's true. Mary and Martha, 2013, feel-good film about malaria. John, it's all just grist for the comedy mill. All right, Avi, what is your guess? My guess is a tonic water commercial.

A tonic water commercial because of the malaria theme. I get it. Tonic water famously contains quinine, which was a deterrent to malaria, and still is, presumably. I don't know. I don't know about that. I'd drink it with gin. All right.

Let me see. So, quinine tonic commercial or Mary and Martha, 2013? And the answer is Mary and Martha, 2013 film. Incredible. No, all guesses are wrong. The quote, of course, was from the David Cronenberg film Scanners. Instead of podcasts, the word that was being said was ephemeral. Ephemeral, which was a drug that was administered, a fictional drug,

a fictional anxiety-soothing drug that was administered as a trial to pregnant women, and that caused them to have telekinetic babies that could make your heads explode. David Cronenberg body horror film. And Avi, you are someone who is into clinical trials, and I'm thinking you might be a scanner. Is that so? That is not. Are you a scanner, sir, or not? Not. No, okay.

Andy, you bring the case. Why don't you tell me what the beef is here? Avi and I have been friends for a long time. We've been reunited here in Seattle. He moved here a couple years ago to work at a cancer institute in the city. Are you a physician or a medical professional or a PhD? A PhD.

Research scientist. A PhD in art history. Very good. Frequently at his place of work, they advertise for requesting participants for clinical trials. And he has signed up for a number of these clinical trials. I see. The most significant of one involved a vaccine for malaria. Right.

And what ended up happening, Avi? I got malaria. Yeah. I will say, though, it was a subclinical level of malaria. So typically if somebody gets malaria... Just a little bit of malaria. Is that what you said when you went on dates? Just subclinical.

All right, so subclinical meaning what? Meaning there's fewer parasites than are typically able to be detected by a normal test. That if somebody in an endemic region got malaria, they would go to the doctor, get tested. It would be a certain parasitic burden. Right. So your parasitic burden was fairly light.

Yes. That's not reassuring. What kind of symptoms did you suffer from your very light parasitic burden, if any? Zero. Zero. So you very technically had malaria, but it was no big. But the mosquito bites had symptoms. The mosquito bites had symptoms? Tell me more. Itchiness. Yeah, redness. So the way they administered the vaccine is by having thousands of... Hundreds. Hundreds of mosquitoes bite you.

Oh. Quick question. Why? There's got to be money involved. Yes. How much money are you paid to go and stand in a mosquito tank until you get subclinical malaria for science? Right now, John, I am just imagining one of those money tanks they have at fairs,

but there's also malaria-bearing mosquitoes in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like the tornado of dollar bills. You're grabbing them, but also grabbing mosquitoes with malaria. What fun. If that is not how the test is administered, I would like to know how. But first, how much? So it was $200 per vaccine administration.

That means per bite? No, that would be about a dollar per bite. Not enough. So it was like a soup, a to-go soup container with a mesh top. Yeah. And all the mosquitoes, about 200 mosquitoes in that container. Right. And you put your

arm over it for 10 minutes. Honestly? That's dumb. I'm not saying you're dumb or smart for doing it or not. I'm saying that technique

seems really dumb. Like, I think a booth is better, right? And just go nude into a booth full of mosquitoes. But, I mean, holding your arm over a bowl for ten minutes seems an excessively dull and tiring way to get a bunch of mosquito bites. There are many more exciting ways to do it. Okay. That's true.

And you get $200 for that. For those. And then there were many, many additional visits with blood draws and screenings. So all said and done, it was about $2,500. $2,000. $1.5,000. Is a side effect of malaria saying numbers funny? Are you doing it for the money,

or are you doing it for the science? I would say 60-40, science and money. Okay. And, John, if you think that doing this was foolhardy, maybe you should talk to his used motorcycle! Good point, Jesse. What'd you buy with your

$2,500? One of the things I got was a pair of skis. So last year, Andy introduced me to skiing. Oh, okay. And we... I'm sorry to snort about skiing in Washington State. That was rude. I apologize.

There's no real skiing to speak of in New England, which is a region in the Northeast United States. I haven't heard of it. The skiers in New England will hate me for saying that, but there's skiing here in Washington, right? There's good skiing, right? I mean, I see these mountains. They're for real.

They're not our bogus, lumpy hills like we got in New Hampshire in junk. That's where I'm from. You're from New Hampshire? Well, I'm not. Sorry that I said what I said. You know I'm right. I grew up near a lumpy hill. Yeah.

So you got some skis, and Andy introduced you to some skiing, so your life was bettered that way because you got to spend more time with your friend. Yep. And how many other types of tests have you done? You mean trials? Well, I said what I meant. I would say there were two. You know what this is? This is a trial.

And you, my friend, are on it. I'm currently writing a journal article entitled The Effects of Sassmouth on Tough Judges. How many other trials had you participated in? There were two others. Two others. So in total, that's three. For a total of $7 five thousand dollars thank you thank

you audience members no those other ones were much less money but also much less involved oh really what were the other ones about just blood draws or nasal swabbing I'd nasal swab for free Is this something that is just convenient to your office? Like, is this at the research center? And they're like, yeah, hey, do you want to come down and get a nasal swab for a honey right now? And you're like, sure, why not? Yeah, a nasal swab for beer money sounded good. Nasal swab for beer money sounds like an incredible T-shirt as well. All right, so Andy, Avi is okay, right? But any lingering results of your subclinical malaria?

None. How's your parasitic burden right now, aside from this guy who's bothering you? It's zero. Zero parasitic burden, and all is well, and you got your skis, and you went on a ski date with your friend. So, Andy, what do you care? I have two complaints. I think one is I think that he's unnecessarily taking a risk.

I think it's not worth it. He has a real job, and I think he doesn't... I mean, I don't want to say he doesn't need the money, but I think it's just the sort of risk-reward calculation is off. And then the other problem. Yeah, but you don't understand. Some people really thrive on risk. Some people don't feel alive unless they have that rush of a cup of noodles cup full of 200 mosquitoes

pushed up against their forearm for 10 sweet minutes. Is that why you do it, Avi? So you can feel something for once? God, I've been chasing the dragon to that first nasal swab for... Unnecessary risk is your point. And then the other thing is that it's just unbelievably time consuming. He has to go in.

For this one, he had to go in. There were these big periods where he had to go in every day to get his blood drawn. And then he wasn't allowed to leave the city for big chunks of time because they were worried about him. And you wanted to take him on a skiing trip and you couldn't do it? Yeah, or do other things. We like to do lots of things together. So yeah, there are all these, we like to go on lots of outdoor adventures together.

But do you have any standing in this case? Are you harmed in any way by his choices of what to do with his own body or do you just care about him? I care about him. No, that's not good enough. Avi, how do you feel about Andy's concerns? I'm appreciative. He's still wrong, but I'm appreciative. Let's explore the wrong

more than the appreciation, just for the sake of fun. So I would say as part of my career and general knowledge of biology, I've mitigated a lot of the, what I would see is excessive risk. Knowing a little bit more, there have certainly been clinical trials I've not done because I didn't understand it or didn't feel comfortable. Like what was one that you chose not to do? So there was another malaria therapy, but it was a pharmacological based one. And I didn't know enough about pharmacology, drugs and what they would do to my body. So I chose not to participate in that one. Well, that seems very prudent of you. What about this argument that you're missing out on trips because you're not allowed to leave Seattle

because your parasitic burden is a danger to the rest of the United States or something? I think there was enough flexibility that I was still able to go on certain trips. I couldn't go on all of the trips, but one of the weekends that I was allowed to leave, we went to a river or lake, a lake upstate. The mosquitoes there were way worse.

You don't even know the difference between a lake and a river. You're delusional. Sorry, you were saying about the mosquitoes at the river or the lake? The mosquitoes at the lake were much worse than the ones at the trial. Oh, really? And you didn't get nothing for that? No. Did they have malaria at all?

That's a good point. Thank you, Bailiff Jesse. On the scale of mosquito worseness, I see it as going from not having malaria to having malaria. What made them worse? They weren't all in a cup? Just much more intense bites and itchy and...

Gotcha. All over, too. Not just localized to one small part of my arm, but... That must have looked so gross on your arm, sir. So aside from simply complaining about the trip that Andy took you on, your point is that nature poses as much risk often as a clinical trial for a malaria vaccine. Or did you have a point at all? Why was I hearing you complain about these mosquitoes?

Just that the mosquitoes, that the actual trial wasn't as bad as real life. Right. So, you know, I was doing some research into this. And in 2016, in France, there was a clinical trial of a medication that was supposed to ease anxiety in Parkinson's patients, and a dude died. You read this story, right? It was a big story in France, and I know Andy's nodding along. He follows Le Monde very carefully.

He follows the French bioclinical news very closely. And six other guys, I think they were all men in this particular study, suffered irreversible brain damage as a result. It was very, very big news. Obviously there are clinical trials all the time. This is an extreme outlier in science. But there are dangers, right? There are risks involved in what you're doing.

Yeah. For sure. So what is the limit? Pharmacology, I don't understand exactly what the pharmacology study was. Was that taking a pill? Is that what that means? Yes. Right.

So you're not going to be taking any pills? Right. As long as you're, well, I just, don't look at me like that, dude. You're the one putting cups of mosquitoes up to your body. I'm just trying to understand your lifestyle. And where your limits are. So that I can rule on whether or not Andy has a right to stop you before you hurt yourself again. Sure.

I say my limits would then be to what extent I understand the science. And how comfortable I am with the kind of physiological processes that would go on. Does he always use these words? Always. Yeah. All the time. that would go on? Does he always use these words?

Always. Yeah, all the time. I would just contend that inherent to the fact that it's a clinical trial is that they don't know what's going to happen. So he may say that he needs to understand what's going to happen, but that's why they're doing the test is because it's sort of this mystery.

They don't know. Andy, you introduced Avi to skiing, right? Yeah, I guess so. Is that true? Do the two of you like to go cross-country or downhill skiing? Both. Those are perfectly safe activities, right? Yeah.

No one has ever died downhill skiing. Certainly not, say, Sonny Bono. We don't play football while we ski, generally. Whoa! Clash of Sonny Bono trivia. Take that, ghost of Congressman Sonny Bono. I was going to say, I really enjoyed your line of questioning there, Bailiff Jesse. Thank you, but youiff Jesse. Thank you. But you just got bono'd.

The bailiff makes a good point, Andy. You are trying to keep Avi from taking minor hypothetical risks so that he can engage in more risky behavior with you. How do you respond to that assertion? I just think that the risk-reward calculation is different. The sort of going skiing down a blue run at a mountain, I don't think... With a friend. With a friend. Is perhaps more rewarding than sitting in a lab with 200 mosquitoes. Yes, that's my contention. Said the guy who's probably never nasal swabbed. is perhaps more rewarding than sitting in a lab with 200 mosquitoes alone.

Except the guy who's probably never nasal swabbed. It's amazing. So if I were to rule in your favor, Avi, obviously it would just be to say to Andy, stay out of my business. You're my friend, not my mom or dad. Correct. All right.

And Andy, what do you want me to rule? That Avi should not ever do this again? Maybe not. Yeah, I'd like to rule that he should refrain from clinical trials, at least ones that have to do with potentially deadly diseases. Do you have something coming up? Is there something on your docket, Avi? So there's an HIV vaccine trial.

But that one does not include a challenge. So... It's sort of an implicit challenge. So a challenge is the term for when the actual pathogen is administered to see if the vaccine is efficacious. Right. Which is what happened with you and your malarial friends. Right. So after three vaccine doses, they then gave me actual malaria mosquitoes. Right. And the vaccine didn't work. Right. So with this HIV vaccine trial, you would be taking the vaccine, but they would not be introducing HIV to see if it works. So what do they learn from this trial?

To see if they can measure certain biomarkers associated with the vaccine. Right. That would indicate if it worked or not. Right. And why is it important for you to do this uh next test i presume andy that you're opposed to him doing this just in general i i worry about the the sort of prevalence of these i don't have i don't know too much about this specific trial but i think that uh there's these come up all the time. Generally, you want this habit to stop. This habit, yes.

Right. And why is it important to you that you consider and maybe do this one? I wouldn't say it's super important, but I'm excited by the idea of being part of something that could potentially be the vaccine or a vaccine. I mean, I think that's really exciting to participate in that kind of a research project, a research trial. Is that part of why you do the work that you do at a cancer research center? I would say partially, yeah. I mean, I'm driven by questions. I would say that's a majority of it is just trying to understand biological mechanisms, but for sure, you know, the greater good of humanity is certainly part of it.

Do you hear that applause when he said that? And I think he's short-selling the role that money plays in the thing here. So I agree that he cares a lot about science, but that's why he is a scientist, and that's why he does the experiments himself. I don't think he needs to be a participant. No, I—that's—yeah, I understand that. But I'm going to do something that I would normally never do in a live case, which is I'm going to manipulate things for the podcast, And you're going to be a part of it.

I hope you'll go along with me on this. So I would like you to just say, and also, there's the money. And then when he says that, I want everyone to give him a standing ovation. This may work into the edit. It may not. It's all about providing options. Yeah.

Just something we need. A little pickup here. And also, there's the money. Woo! Okay, okay. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to render my decision. I'm going to go into my portable Seattle chambers. I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom. Thank you. exits the courtroom. Andy, how are you feeling about your chances? I was feeling better until the applause. I think Avi won over a lot of hearts at the end there, so I'm nervous. I mean, had it occurred to you that maybe these clinical trials would help solve deadly diseases?

That's true, but I think he's doing that with his own research, not, he doesn't need to sign up to... Plus with his carving those sweet slopes. Avi, how are you feeling about your chances? Better now. Andy, do you think you have demonstrated that this has cost to you, that you have standing in this case? I'm not sure. I hope so. I've been friends with Avi a long time, and I hope that he considers his own health in this moving forward. Can we just redo this whole thing? Just be a little more chill.

Kind of uptight. And please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. We've been doing this podcast for eight or nine, eight now yeah about that going into our ninth year and standing is a legal term that I learned five days ago I'm still not even sure I understand it completely but it speaks to a concern that I've had as the podcast has gone on that we're often just hearing people who disagree with each other rather than people who can demonstrate a harm or an injustice or an unfairness. That someone needs to have standing,

a reason to bring the case to me other than to be on perhaps the most popular podcast of our era. Thank you. Now you guys are applause crazy. All right. Anyway. And the fact of the matter is, Andy,

that you're standing here is very hard to establish because you're Avi's friend, right? And you want him to be healthy, but presumably you also want him to be happy. point five gigabit coin to put into a beer and keg stand it and then I'm gonna let them chop off my pinky which is a real transaction you can conduct on the dark web there was exactly chop off my pinky and feed it to a snake and it's totally cool. It's a little something called freedom. Look it up. That's right.

I would be inclined to say that perhaps Avi is being a little carefree with his own existence and well-being in a way that would perhaps require some intervention from a close friend. But mostly the complaint you brought is, sometimes my friend can't go skiing with me because he got bit. Because the requirements of the science he's in means he can't leave town. And that is fairly, it's not, I mean, you are obviously selfless, that you do care about him, but also selfish, you want him around more. And it's hard for friends when they have hobbies and passions that keep them separate.

You know, I appreciate that you want to spend time with him, but his life is his life and his body is his body. And I think that he's demonstrated that his motives are not only fairly noble and integral to who he is, but also that he's fairly responsible with the trials that he undertakes. And, you know, look, it could be that Andy dies in a delusional panic, Andy dies in a delusional panic sick with yellow fever and a parasitic load that is coming out of his ears because he gets one trial wrong I don't think that that's going to happen it's and I any more than I think he's gonna fall off a cliff with you on skis so really you had no business bringing the case to court except as a very

public display of your affection for your friend, which I do believe is true. Now, there have been a lot of emotional outpourings from the audience this evening. Some of them, at least one, was highly manipulated to create podcast magic, but two of them were very genuine. Real applause for Avi and a real awe for you. I think that's the most you're going to get out of this case. You should take it and go home. Judge, I rule in Avi's favor. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules.

That is all. Andy and Avi, ladies and gentlemen. Our thanks to Sasha Zucker for naming this case and our thanks to Andy and Avi for being on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Indeed. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman podcast. Indeed. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you,

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Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick

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And we're very excited. I mean, I dare say we're both a little bit of a flutter. Yeah. That is absolutely true. This is a guest that we were like, they're not going to say yes, are they? And then they did. We are so excited to have them on the show. True music heroes of Seattle and our great nation. Please welcome to the stage, Seattle's own Shabazz Palaces. Thank you. Jesse John Judge

John Judge John Judge John Judge John Judge John, Judge, John, Judge, John, Judge, John, Judge, John, Judge, John, Judge, John, Judge, Welcome, I just bought that justice, Judge, Judge, Judge, Judge, Judge, Judge, Judge, Judge, I'm out. I stood, I stood, I stood, I stood, I stood Lights slice across the set

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legend carried like a killer's nerves one pitch is worth a thousand swerves. These facts stated to enhance what is preload. I dance with the white whale on the Pequod and find my way fast when the road curve y'all. It's a seesaw life, should I go? Should I go? Ah, look at me fall. Did I know?

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What the fuck you think? For whom the angels sing. And my favorite color's brown with pink. I believe to own his each. I'm gonna hold the chrome with a tight grip. Ooh, they might trip, die. Cause the way we talk shit is so fly. They just walking around. They walking around. Always watching down. Always watching down. The way we talk shit is so fly They just walkin' round, they walkin' round Always watchin' down, always watchin' down

Fuck they talkin' bout, what they talkin' bout, die Ain't no coppin' out, no coppin' out Thank you. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. The king of spades laid across the green belt The ace of spades was the next card gonna get dealt I had a black queen under my thumb So I'm looking at the dealer like your time done finally come now. I had slid across all my chips, kissed my queen across her glossy lips. Seen an officer getting his pistol ripped so I said man fuck that bro. This is it. Shit ain't always gotta take brother. Life is rice, it's hopes. Vice is two coatbooks, pistols, and his dough. And some old shit, shit I can't even quote

But I'm giving out my strap and tell him no අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Yeah, I'm in the jam where all my folks go Where the dogs throw money at the girls' hoes That every fucking thing gon' turn up roses And the big bright flash frees all our poses I believe in my TV and buy cake with my rent Party all nasty like it don't make sense I'm in the groove where all my folks move Where the cars get you pussy and the liquor smooth

If you be a little different, then the us is funny And you can even play yourself up this for some money He hate women, but he love money And if you ain't convinced he gonna go get his gun i'm on that trend that all my folks in where the brothers hate love and pray for sin and if you want satisfaction be a star and spin and all my little bros on the street putting the guns in action it's a midnight sharp like the clothes on a pin you gotta kick it like it don't make sense.

I'm in the funk with all my folks. Fly with a crowd. I'll make you sky if you just get rich or die. Hey, never let them see you smile or try or cry. A chain and a video, that's paradise. I believe in my clothes, labels, and in my mirrors of prints. And I'm so conceited but unconvinced. I'm on that spot that all my folks drop. Trying to grind and shine and climb on top.

Hitting licks to strike your rich, but really not. Just like spinners looking like they going when they really stopped. I pop that gun that all my folks run. Shoot for the stars, bitch. Get you some. That eternal hard dance beat ain't never done.

Taking hella chances under the moon and sun. 21. 21. Taking hella chances under the moon and sun 21 21 21 21 Thank y'all very much. Shabazz Palaces, ladies and gentlemen. Shabazz Palaces. Hello, teachers and faculty.

This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I.

It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. We are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go.

Jesse, we have some more justice to dispense. Is that true? There is still injustice in the world, but John, time is starting to run short. I think we're going to have to do these ones fast. We're moving on to swift justice. We're going to hear three cases in 15 minutes, shall we? Let's put 15 minutes on the clock.

That's only five minutes per case, John. Do you think you can do it? Oh, I thought it was 2.5 thousand per case. I apologize. Yes, I think we can do it. Ready, steady, go. Please welcome Jonica and Kyle. Jonica and Kyle. Jonica, and Kyle.

Jonica, you bring this case before me seeking justice. Yes. And I'm gonna tell you, I didn't even read your letter. As soon as I saw your name was Jonica, I'm like, yeah, you're on. Good, good. Greatest name I've ever heard in my life.

Banking on that. Never met a Jonica before. Thank you. I've met plenty of Johns, let me tell you. And they're all dull. So I'm going into this fairly blind. What's the issue? Judge, I would like you to order my husband to make a new friend

to preserve my sanity and the health of our marriage. See? Jonica, I knew I liked you. Because you've been paying attention. Came into here going like, I just want my husband to make a friend. But you saw that last case and you're like, I have to prove standing.

I don't want him to have a friend for him. I want him to have a friend for me. Yeah. Because he's hanging around the house driving me crazy. Yes. Right, okay. Yeah, that's it. Is that true?

That is true. We moved to Seattle about a year and a half ago from Korea. That's where we met. Hey, quick question. This is just something that came up last night in Vancouver. When you were living in Korea, did you ever watch a real television show called Vampire Prosecutor? No. Just trying to determine. That's a real show? Well,ire Prosecutor. No. Just trying to determine. That's a real show? Well, I'm trying to determine whether it's real or the whole internet is gaslighting me.

Never heard of it. Let's get back to your case. I apologize. Oh, that's okay. I lived in Seattle a few years before I moved back here, so I still have friends. So you may have missed the run of Vampire Prosecutor. Probably didn't show in Korea.

So you still have friends here in Seattle. Still have friends here. I also made some new friends through work. But in that year and a half, my husband has not made any new friends. And he's never lived. Maybe because he's so quiet. Kyle, is it? Yes.

Okay. So you guys met in Korea and you moved to Seattle, but you had never lived here before. No, I'm originally from England. so this is my first time in America. Oh, I see. Welcome. Thank you. Yeah. And so living in England, of course, you had no friends. Just mates. Just mates. Well, my defense is that I do have friends. I've got friends around the world.

I literally just have one friend in Seattle. And who's I met you're saying you have a friend in every port who's your one friend in Seattle he's he's my friend Craig met him in South Korea we played on the same football as soccer team sure in South Korea he's from Seattle so when we moved to Seattle, I got back in touch with him. Oh, he lives here in Seattle? Is he here tonight? He isn't, he isn't.

He would be here. Oh, some friend. He's a long-time listener, by the way. He really wants us to say his full name. He wants you to say his full name? Yeah, Craig Batson. We'll just have to sneak it in there. I'll say it too

Craig Batson where the hell are you some friend Craig where's Craig now he's out of town for his work he's a transplant surgeon

do you have difficulty making new friends? I do, yeah. Why? I'm quiet. Yeah. I'm a bit of an introvert. I don't really kind of put myself that forward, making new friends.

And after all, football, a.k.a. soccer, is the most introverted of sports. Yeah. I'm slightly louder on the pitch. That fandom is pretty quiet. Pretty like they just kind of watch it and then go home quietly to think about what they've seen. It's a very polite sport.

Sure, sure. There's no social bonding around that particular sport. I don't often make very many friends when I shower. Are you unhappy with the number of friends you have? Well, one isn't a big number. One is the loneliest number. Very much is. I mean, I would like to make more friends and I think, you know, I should

make more friends. I just don't feel I need as much pressure or the pressure to make friends immediately. What do you do in order to get him to make friends? Just tease him about it and bully him a little bit. She sends me articles

like research has been done that men with a small social group are more likely to be depressed and die younger. This is a way to try and scare me into getting more friends but it kind of just scares me. I don't really read the article

because it's a little bit depressing from the title, to be honest. Kyle, do you participate in any, you know, organised social activities, work, church, clubs, bowling teams? No. Far from soccer. I played soccer once. You're playing soccer, and aren't your teammates your friends? I don't know. I mean, we're friends.

We don't socialize a lot outside of playing soccer. What's wrong with them? It can't be all of you. Surely there's got to be an after-game get-together. Well, I think there's just a large age difference where I'm a little bit older on the team, so they'll go out on the high a lot. You're playing on the soccer team from the movie Ladybugs? They'll text him kind of last minute to go get

drinks and he won't go. Oh, because you're tired. I'm tired, yeah. He's got a date with Craig. Got a date with Craig or you're home with Jonica watching Vampire Prosecutor. What is your age, if I may ask? I'm 38. You're 38 years old. You're too young to be a homebody.

What would you like him to... You'd like him to be out of the house three, four, five times a night? Yeah. No, five nights a week. Or five times a week. He's like, well, I'm back. Okay, gotta go. That wouldn't be the worst. What would be better worst what would be better?

I'd like him to at least have one other friend other than Craig so he's out maybe a couple of nights at least a month what would you do during those nights? I'd go see my own friends without him which is right now I usually feel bad if I don't invite him along

so I bring him along when I go hang out with my friends would you like movies? Yeah, I did a master's in film studies, so I love movies. Oh, no wonder you have no friends. Wait, John, I have an idea. Our friend David Chen from the Slash Filmcast is here. Dave, are you here somewhere? Dave?

Yeah, over here. Dave, where are you? You're a famous film podcaster. Yeah, come here. He's got a master's in film studies. Come here now. Just saying. Come on up. Ladies and gentlemen, from the Slash Filmcast, David Chen.

Have you met Kyle? Yes. Hello. Hi. You live here in Seattle, don't you? That is correct. Yes, I do. Do you need a friend?

Always. Fantastic. All right. I am ordering you two to be friends. Right. It's two friends. Now, look, you're very game to do this. This wasn't planned.

Thank you for coming up on stage. No problem. Look, I think it's very possible that Kyle's a big drip, and if it doesn't work out, no big. But maybe you guys should go see a movie together. You should go see an Aquaman or something. Yeah, sounds great. Sounds great. What movie do you want to see? Any movie together. We should go see an Aquaman or something. Yeah, sounds great. What movie do you want to see?

Any movie you like. It's fine. Well, you really have to take the wheel here. Sounds good. And I'll tell you what, just to make this have some consequence. You two are now friends. And until you guys go and see the movie

and send me a picture of the ticket stub I'm ordering you to break up with Craig because Craig's got his priorities all wrong this is the sound of a gavel Johnica and Kyle and David Chen from the Slash Filmcast thank you David Chen David and Kyle

are friends please welcome and Kyle and David Chen from the Slash Filmcast. Thank you, David Chen. David and Kyle, our friends. Please welcome Kellen and Kara. Kellen and Kara. Welcome to the court of Judge John Hodgman. Who comes before this court to seek justice? Who initiated this case?

I did. And you are? Kellen. Kellen. So what is the nature of your dispute? So Karen and I have been friends for 19 years. Congratulations. Thank you. Fantastic. She lives in Washington. I live in Oregon. Okay. This summer in Oregon, I moved houses across town. Sure. So as part of moving, my wife and I took on a bunch of home renovation projects. Fantastic. Yeah. So do you have a television show on HGTV? You know what, we would have a, it would be really good. I'm already on board. Thank you. Yeah. My wife is a wildland firefighter, so this summer she kept getting called to

go fight fires. Thank her for her service. I will. Yeah. And so it took us a long time to get these projects finished. Right. So the one that was driving me nuts was our backsplash. So we pulled off the old backsplash, put in new countertops and then we were living with drywall, which was driving me bonkers. By the time she finally got around to it, we were... I hate drywall. It's the worst. Drywall. Can't live with it.

Can't live without it. I'll tell you, it's better than wetwall. I tried it. No good. Not as good as Wonderwall. No good. I tried it. No good. Not as good as Wonderwall.

So we were two boxes of tile short of being able to finish. Okay. And big box retailer would only let me order by the pallet, which was entirely too much. That's a lot of tile. That's a lot of tile. So there was a store in Washington that would ship to Kara's house in Washington, but would not ship to me in Oregon. Right. So I ordered... Classic Oregon versus Washington rivalry.

The thing about Oregon is, I know it's a cliche, but a retailer won't ship a pallet of tiles there. Because they think they're too good for pallets. Because they think they're too good for pallets. So I had two boxes shipped to her house, and then I told her after the fact I had two boxes of tiles shipped to your house. How big are the boxes? 65 pounds each. That's disputable.

It's disputable? 65 pounds? Like what? I don't think they were that big. We literally just looked it up. I don't. For Macadam. This big. Kara, I don't mean to make presumptions based on looking at you,

but you're a power lifter, right? Yes, one with child. I did notice. Congratulations. When are you due? April. In April, okay. I was pregnant at the time.

Sure. That the tile arrived. She was less pregnant at the time. Right. See, Kellen, there I'm with you. Because a weight of a growing baby does change. A weight of tiles does not change.

So, within two weeks, I was up and I picked up the tile, took it home, finished the backsplash. End of story. No big. But, alright, let's, hang on. You sent the tile to Caris without getting permission first then you called and informed her

you got two boxes of tile coming don't get angry but she got angry no she didn't get angry can I talk to her about it did you get angry that you got two boxes of tile well I didn't get angry but

I did think about ways to get revenge. Which is why we're here. I cannot wait to get into your plans for revenge. But in evaluating your case, I need to know, was this an inconvenience to you? Why did you feel the need for revenge? Were you hurt emotionally? Was it problematic for your life? In what way? Show me standing. When they delivered the tile, they dropped it right in front of my front door, two 65 pound boxes. I was pregnant and I have a toddler. Right. And no one else, you had to take

it. And I was at home alone, so I had to kind of drag the tile into my entryway and stare at it for two days. That is a legitimate intimacy. She has a double door, Your Honor. She could have opened the other door. Oh, excuse me. She's part of the 1%.

Well, your time is up, Madam Doubledore. If I may be honest, I forgot the other part opened because we haven't ever opened it. You don't even know how wealthy you are. You deserve to be a tile warehouse for your friend from Oregon. Clearly. Her wife's a firefighter. Thank you.

But I appreciate that was an inconvenience. What, and now you're seeking damages in the form of revenge. What is the revenge that you seek? Sand. Go on. I love you, Washington, but Oregon sand is superior for sandboxes

because it is rounder and more soft. What are we even talking about? Of all the Washington versus Oregon debates, You're getting into the roundness of sand? I have a friend who lives in Oregon, and I wanted to deliver some sand to her for a sandbox for my daughter. Now, wait a minute. Have you been living your life going,

I wish I could get some of that sweet Oregon sand up here. Or have you been going, how can I bother Kellen? That's it. And did you retcon your desire for this sand by looking up Oregon sand as an excuse? The sandbox was expedited when the tile arrived to my house. Got it. Okay. What she told me, Your Honor, was it would be hilarious if you came home to a pile of

sand in front of your garage. Because it would. It would be hilarious. So stipulated. So once you hire someone to dump sand in front of Kellen's garage, what do you propose happens next? Her wife very much enjoys driving her truck, and I propose that her wife drive the sand to me.

I'll reimburse for gas. And they won't deliver the Oregon sand to you in Washington? As far as I can tell, no. Well, maybe you didn't go very far to tell. It's probably true. All right. Callan, do you have a reason why you would not want a big pile of sand in front of your garage? I don't think it's comparable.

If she said, hey, I'm having sand delivered and I'll be down in ten days to pick it up, that would be great. But now she's putting the burden on me to take the sand to her. I think it's incredibly comparable. Frankly, ingenious. And the whole thing could have been avoided if you had just called her before you sent the tile to her house. You presumed that she was a pushover, that this weak pregnant lady couldn't stop your scheme. My argument, Your Honor, is that she gave me a key to her house and told me to make myself at home.

I'll tell you what, you're both incredibly delightful. I absolutely think this sand plan is fantastic. Thank you. Turnabout is very fair play. And yet she did give you a key to her house. It seems that this prank could go back and forth for many a year. And I look forward to hearing it. I'm not gonna stop the endless reprisal

that the Sands scheme is about to start up. So I order in Kara's favor, and then I look forward to seeing you guys here next year to find out what else you've done to each other. There's the sound of a gavel. Helen and Kara. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the stage Kate and Brandon. Kate and Brandon, who comes to this court to seek justice?

I do. All right. And you are Kate, I presume. I am the Kate, yes. All right. And what is the nature of your dispute? Over the past year, my husband has purchased six smart speakers and... Oh, boy. More smart bulbs and plugs and accoutrements for said smart speakers than I could probably shake a stick at. Right, now by smart speaker you're talking about, I don't know how to do this without brand names,

like a remote speaker. Like a Sonos? Like a Sonos, like a remote speaker system, or like a device like a. That you talk to like a. The ones that are always listening. A device made by one of the larger retail organizations. Sure.

Across the world. Right. So everyone... A Walmart talks a lot. Talks a lot and listens more. Yes. Like, Alexa, subscribe to the Judge John Houghton podcast. Alexa, play Huey Lewis and the News Sports.

It's my famous catchphrase, ladies and gentlemen. So, you have more than one of these devices in your home. Yes. Okay. And your concern is what? I am no longer able to use my lights like a normal person. You can't turn them on and off. No.

Because they're all programmed. They're all programmed based on... Yeah, no, I see your... For the benefit of the audience at home, Brandon has raised his hand in the universal symbol of, well, actually... Brandon, you will have your say. So just finish your thought.

You can't turn your lights on and off because why? So the bulbs are all connected to the smart speaker. Sure. And they are programmed to turn on and off based on voice commands so you have to not only remember what the voice commands are precisely well what has he my voice is my password verify me it's just like machine turn on the light well you would think it would be that simple, but I have spent many, I'm not going to say hours, minutes,

yelling various combinations of lights on, lights come on, lights, you know, and they just, they don't come on. Did you try turn on the lights? That too. Okay. Brandon, they don't come on. Did you try turn on the lights? That too. Okay. Brandon, I now call on you. Say your words. I have not taken away her ability to manipulate the lights with her hands on the switches

or the pull cords. That ability is still hers. She can, to her heart's content, turn lights on and off, and I will reset them and make my automation system the way that I envision it. So you're saying you grant her the free will to crush your dreams

if she so chooses. Absolutely. Rebuild. More powerful. More powerful than ever. Well, honey, I saw that you turned on the torchiere again with your hand. I hope you got that out of your system. No, no, it's fine.

I just have to go back over and make everything perfect again. Which is why he got covers for the switches. I have in my hand a piece of evidence handed to me by Brandon, a magnetic switch and outlet cover for flat modern switches. What does this do? I've never seen such a thing. So instinct kicks in, right? I'm used to reaching over and touching and turning on and off the lights. You're an old style human. Yeah. Yeah. Old school. I reach over and this is basically to prevent me from inadvertently out of habit using the switches. Brandon, did you ever consider just like taking the switch off

and fraying the wires a little? I did shop around for a collection of smart speaker activated light switches. These are only like $3. So, wait a minute. You said that she can turn the lights on and off with her hands however much she pleases and get your blocking her from doing the with with perhaps a obstacle as difficult as removing a refrigerator magnet but why at all why

why why do that what benefit is it to your system that she not touch a light switch because then you can enjoy the convenience do that? What benefit is it to your system that she not touch a light switch? Because then you can enjoy the convenience of sitting on the couch, speaking to the device and having it do for you and not have the the hassle and the burden of standing up, walking over to the switch, and turning the switch off, I am saving her minutes. All easy. It's not mob justice yet. I'm a monster. I know I'm a monster.

I never claimed I was not a monster. Brandon, you're adorable. I love you. I'm thinking of asking you to marry me. Taken. Because I think, well, I think you might be on the market soon. Quick question. Your automated lights, are they just, you know, like regular light, or do you use colored lights in schemes?

Predominantly, they are... regular standard lights in a couple of select locations. I have the ability to manipulate color, and that allows for some really fun, cool locations, I have the ability to manipulate color, and that allows for some really fun, cool things. I have the ability to manipulate color. Finally, I may make this world perfect. And you cannot stop me, Spider-Man. Spider-Man.

Let the record show that someone in the audience said smart speakers are sexist. They don't listen as well to women. That's interesting. That could be part of my problem. My eight-year-old daughter and I have had many afternoons where we've come home and just frantically tried to get lights to turn on and we give up and we take the the magnetic thing off and we're like forget it we're just we're doing this. Our four-year-old daughter has no problem controlling the lights with her voice. Well here's the here's the thing so I So I have some of these lights, too, these smart lights. And we also have a smart device that we had to rename our electronic friend, because every time we talked about it, it would activate.

And then suddenly we would be listening to Dolly Parton, which is not terrible. Worst things have happened. Yeah, for sure. And it is a confusing transition in human history. You know, there's a futurist named Juan Enriquez who gives a very interesting talk about how Homo sapiens and Neanderthals are not... They lived together for a long, long, long time

before finally Homo sapiens said, enough of you guys, and they ate their brains, and that was it for them. And he said, there's no reason to believe that in the future, given advances in medical science and so forth, that essentially there will be a new species of human that will live alongside us for a long period of time.

It won't just be immediately replaced by Brandon and his ilk. What we're seeing is that stage of human evolution right now. That new species, of course, are called Cylons. Cylons or husbands with schemes. I think that it's important for humanity that you learn to live together. And this Cold War that you are waging, you are waging, Brandon, with your magnetic switch covers. That has to stop right now.

Give that to me. Let the record reflect, by the way, that when John threw that switch cover into the audience, the audience shrunk away, terrified. It's like I was throwing a cup of malarial mosquitoes into the audience. I like this stuff, even though I know that my privacy is completely violated. That it's collecting data on everything that I do and say. And everything I choose. But not her because it doesn't listen to her. I know.

Well, did you tell it not to listen to her to protect her? No, I did not. All right. She has the ability to train it if she opened up the app and have it listen to her voice and go through a number of steps? No, no, no, no, no. the app and have it listen to her voice and go through a number of steps? No, no, no, no, no. You can live together, but in your separate styles. Let her use the...

Let her. She has the human right to use light switches. Don't tell her to talk better to the machine. Do something to the machine so it listens better. What else did you want out of this? Anything other than me yelling at your husband? That was just a bonus.

The bit with the switch plate cover going into the audience was... You're not asking to get rid of all of this technology, are you? No, no. I appreciate the festiveness that he has brought to the house, but I... They go red and green at Christmas time, orange and purple at Halloween, and it plays Monster Mash. It's great. My ruling stands, you're adorable.

You need to make your house livable, not just for your species, but for those of us who will soon be left behind. We're relics. You should treasure us. This is the sound of a gavel.

Thank you, Kate and Brandon. Our thanks to all of the litigants who were part of our show in Seattle, Washington. You all did a wonderful job. Our thanks also to our friends in Shabazz Palaces. Their latest album is on Sub Pop Records. It's called Quasars Born on a Gangster Star. Their music is remarkable. And it was, I have to say, one of the highlights of my career, getting to share a stage with them. And I don't mean that insincerely.

Our show recorded by Matthew Barnhart. Our producer is the ever capable Jennifer Marmer. Matthew Barnard. Our producer is the ever-capable Jennifer Marmer. If you've got a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO and share it with us then. Get ready. The Max Fun Drive is right around the corner. We love you. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. MaximumFun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Listener supported.