Judge John Hodgman - Me-maw & Order

Episode Date: November 14, 2018

Julia brings the case against her mother, Donna. Growing up, Julia and her sister called their grandmother, "Mucca." But Donna believes it was originally "Monka" and will still refer to her that way. Julia wants Donna to stop saying Monka, but Donna doesn't think she is wrong to say it. Who's right? Who's wrong? Thank you to Raven Peters for naming this week's case! To suggest a title for a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, Meemaw and Order. Julia brings the case against her mother Donna. Growing up, Julia and her sister called their grandmother Mucca. But Donna believes it was originally Monca and will still refer to her that way. Julia wants Donna to stop calling her Monca. But Donna says it's not up to Julia. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman

enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. I think what we are doing as boomers is trying to sort through all of the language, all of the traditions, and all of the possibilities. In doing that, we're sorting through how to be grandparents and what to be called. We don't want to be the matriarch and patriarch of old. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in, please. Julia, Donna, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do.

I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he only very recently became a grandmother himself? Yes. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Donna and Julia, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Donna and Julia, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I quoted as I entered this courtroom? Let's say, Donna, you're the mom.

Why don't you go first? What was I quoting? Doesn't sound familiar. Because you're the mom and I like moms. I'm going to give you both. And I like daughters, too. I like family members of all kinds. I'm going to give you both. And I like daughters too. I like family members of all kinds. I'm going to give you both a big hint. I do. It's just how I am. That's how I was raised, Jesse Thorne. You don't have to laugh at me. Just that kind of guy? Yeah.

Kind of guy who likes family members? I'd hate to be Moses around you, found in a basket in the reeds. Nothing could be further from the truth, honestly, because I was not raised in a family so much as I was raised in a suburban weirdo test tube as an only child by two wonderful human beings that I referred to as mother and father, but really thought of as my older roommates. So I don't know what I'm talking about, but I still will give you both a big hint. John, can I just let you know, you're not the only person here who loves family members. I also love family members. And more than that, I hate orphans. Here's a gift to both of you. I am quoting from a newspaper. That narrows it down a bit, doesn't it, Donna? What's your guess? Oh, the New York Times.

The New York, the failing New York Times. The failing, yes, with the fake news in it. Failing New York Times. That's definitely a major hometown newspaper where I live. Where are you guys, Donna and Julia, in life?

I'm in East Moriches on Long Island. Okay. I'm just north of the city. All right. Northern Westchester. You've heard of the New York Times then, right, Julia? Yes. All right. Well, your mom picked the New York Times, so that's not available to you anymore. What is another newspaper that you could name? I'm going to go Wall Street Journal. Wall Street Journal, another. Jessie, that's another famous newspaper. Yeah, nailed it.

Jessie, you want to guess a newspaper here? I mean, the obvious guess here is Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor out of Boston, Massachusetts, Commonwealth of New England. All guesses are wrong. If you had guessed the December 7th edition, 2013 of USA Today, one of you would be going home with a prize package of turtle wax and justice. But you are wrong. And specifically, it was an article about baby boomer grandparents

not being called granddad or grandma because it makes them feel young. And that's not fair because, as we all know, baby boomers are still the most important and relevant human beings on Earth all the time, forever. And they went on to quote an actor living in Manhattan named Russell Horton, who wrote or he said to the USA Today, the USA Today. Did you get the USA Today today, Jesse? I know you live in a hotel room. Yeah. Russell Horton, an actor, 70, is quoted in USA Today saying, it turns out grandfatherhood is absolutely terrific. Everything is cracked up to be. but this was the first time out. I was a little queasy about being

called Gramps or Grandpa. Horton, an actor in Manhattan, instead picked Grand Dude. Oh no. Russell Horton is still alive, though I wish you were dead for that joke. No, I don't. Of course I don't. Russell Horton, fantastic. I did some research. He has a long IMDB page. He was in the movie, Annie Hall, which was a movie that came out that was good and we saw it. We don't ever need to talk about it again, but he was in the famous scene where he's spouting off about Marshall McLuhan, the media theorist, and Marshall McLuhan walks into the scene and says, you know nothing of my work. That was him. That was Randall Horton, Russell Horton, excuse me,

Russell Horton. He also is in two twilight zones. So Russell Horton, I'm sorry that I wished your death even briefly there, but grand dude, that that's silly. Come on, come on.

I mean, maybe if it's your job to break horses in between visits from your grandkids, that's true. He's the grand dude of the ranch. All right. So this case is all about grandma, grandpa, and other grandparent names. And the dispute is between you, Julia, the daughter, and Donna, your mother, as about what is the appropriate thing to call your grandmother,

Julia. And then this would be your mother, Donna. Is that correct? No, my mother-in-law. Your mother-in-law. Okay. So Julia, what did you grow be your mother, Donna, is that correct? No, my mother-in-law. Your mother-in-law, okay. So, Julia, what did you grow up calling your paternal grandmother? She has always been and always will be Mucca. Mucca. And Donna, you disagree. Yes, it started out as Mucca and then it gradually evolved the way language does, I suppose, into mucca. Especially when being spoken by small children. When did you start calling

mucca mucca? I will use that as a neutral term for now until I determine which is going to be the final designation. Julia, when did you start referring to your grandmother, your paternal grandmother as mucca? So I always have because it's actually my older sister who coined the name and she's four years older. Okay. You obviously have a memory of what you have always called your grandmother. She's still alive, the grandmother? She is. Okay. Why is this dispute even happening? I mean, why is there a difference of opinion? And when did this difference of opinion start and And why does it lead to a conflict?

Julia, you're bringing this case to the court. Tell me a little bit about when your mother first said to you, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's Manka. I guess I've noticed that she has always done it, but it never occurred to me to differ with her, I think, until, I mean, I guess I was a teenager or going. Yes. A sassy teenager. And then when I was in college, I started asking, you know, why do you say Munkah? And then it turned into, well, my mom would always say, because that's what it was originally.

Just like she's just said to me. Correct. She's saying it was originally. Just like she's just said to me. Correct. Yeah, she's saying it all the time. And we said, well, it's Mucca now. You know, can we go forward with Mucca? Do the same response. And I guess it's turned into a bit of a rift where, you know, she'll write an email and she'll have lots of information and thoughts on things. And then she'll mention something about Mucca.

of information and thoughts on things. And then she'll mention something about Munkah. And I can only get myself to respond by saying, oh, I'm sorry, I don't know who you're talking about. Are you talking about Munkah? Okay. Wait a minute. Julia, are you still a teenager? I might be.

Hanging on to that. Look, as someone who has teenagers in his life, and you know I love all family members, Jesse. All family members. Absolutely. But this kind of dispute like, oh, mom, you're saying Mokka's name wrong. You're a terrible person and you need to get out of my life. That would be a teenager-y thing to say. That's fair.

You're not a teenager. No. I am an adult. So why does it bother you when your mother calls your grandmother Monka? I think it's just the sound of it. It sounds like a foot being stuck in the mud, like Monka. Holy moly. I don't like the way it looks written on paper or in an email. And I just like having all things in order as they should be. And having the whole family aligned on a name sounds good to me.

Sounds like a foot being stuck in the mud. Yes. Yeah, munka. Or a fish, yeah. Or a fish being stuck in the mud? Yeah. Munka, munka. Get me out of this mud, says the fish.

That's very poetic. And also does not track with any natural sound that I've ever heard in my life. That's very poetic and also does not track with any natural sound that I've ever heard in my life. That's fair. That's fair. Are you a surrealist poet? Not yet, but maybe. Alright.

And Donna, why is it Munkah to you? How did Munkah start? Julia maintains that it was her older sister who coined the term. Is your daughter a liar? No. Her sister Liz was a small baby just beginning to speak. And I was taking Munkah.

I'll allow it. To drop her off to pick up her car at the repair station. Hold on. Guys, one second. Over there in the remote studio, could you get that fish out of the mud? I heard a fish that was stuck in the mud. It's pretty common in recording studios, that's right. Yeah, in Manhattan. Please continue, Donna.

Okay. Okay. So I dropped her grandmother at the repair station and then drove back to the grandmother's house. You can call the grandmother by your preferred name until I've ruled against you. Okay. So we drove back to Monka's house. Hang on, hang on. My foot just got stuck in the mud. Did you hear that?

Oh, this is going to be a problem. All right. I think we've played that one out as much as we can. Okay. Of course, if my foot was stuck in the mud, I would be saying Munkah. So it wasn't a good joke. That's true. Jesse wins that joke.

Full points for Jesse. Okay. You dropped Munkah off at the repair shop. And she was going to drive her car back. So we drove to Monka's house. And as soon as I took off, Liz started screaming, Monka, Monka. And, you know, I had no idea what in the world she was talking about. And we got to the house, pulled in the driveway, and I took her out of the car seat.

And I said, I don't know what Monka is. And then my mother-in-law pulled into the driveway and got out of her car. Liz threw her arms open and said, Manka. And she was just trying to tell me not to leave Manka somewhere where she couldn't get back, I guess. So ever since then, she's always called her Manka. Well, Julia is clearing her voice in a very perturbed way because Julia would claim that Liz calls her mucka like Julia. Correct, Julia? That is correct. And I did submit a letter from my sister.

I'll have the court note. Yes, I do have that affidavit from your sister. And we'll go to that for a moment. But I just want to clarify, Donna. So let's say for the moment that it is munkah and your memory is not faulty. Whatever this word is, you don't know what the origin is. You don't know why Liz called your mother-in-law Munkah or Munkah. Well, my mother-in-law had been prompting her to call her grandmother.

Right. And she kept saying, I'm your grandmother, I'm your grandmother. And I think it was her attempt to say grandmother. She didn't speak very much at all yet. She was too young. Got it. So Munkah was as close as she could get. This was her dumb, dumb child imitation of grandmother. Yes, it was.

And her name isn't Monica by any chance, is it? No, it isn't. Or is it Muckaka by any chance? That's another common name. No, I've never heard that one. But that's not right either. Well, the person who obviously would solve this is the person who originated the term. I don't know why she's not here. But Elizabeth, your sister, also known as Liz or Mika, did submit an affidavit.

And it's very long. But I'll just read a little bit of it. This letter is to show my support of my sister Julia's suit against my mother Donna. Though I was a mere babe at the time of the naming with limited language skills, I grew up calling my grandmother Mucca, only questioning its origin when I was old enough to realize it was something different from other grandfolk. The story is it stems from me as a baby attempting to pronounce the word grandmother.

I don't remember how the rift began, but I noticed slowly over the years that my mother quite egregiously mispronounced the adorable nickname by saying Munkah. And I would, rather than correct her, I would tend to ignore it. Continue to call her by the correct, and you must admit,

much more pleasing sounding nickname, Munkah. Et cetera, et cetera. Yours very sincerely, Elizabeth, last name redacted. We will redact the last name, but we'll make this affidavit available on the Judge John Hodgman page at MaximumFun.org and maybe do a screenshot up on our Instagram at Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman, if only so that you can see that Liz slash Elizabeth slash Alikaka put in a very ornate computer signature to sign this abdicate. So Donna, this seems pretty much dispositive that you are wrong.

And Liz has been enabling you all these years because she's terrified of correcting you. But Julia does not have that terror. And thus we have this conflict. Do you think that Liz misremembers her own invention of a name? I think so because, you know, I spoke with my husband. He remembers it being Munkah as well and that it gradually changed over to Muckah. Did your husband provide an affidavit with a computer signature? He did not, but he is here as a material witness. What is his name?

Steve. I'm afraid that we cannot accept his testimony because we don't have a microphone for him. And we know what he's going to say. My wife is correct and my daughter is a liar. Yes. Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor. We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join, and you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real-life situations, and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world. And you get to hear the sound.

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I mean, unless your mother is a liar, this is a recollection that she has. I don't disagree that it started as Munkah. That's not an issue at all for me. I just don't like the way it sounds. I don't like the way it looks. I get heebie-jeebies in my belly. I get uncomfortable when I hear Munkah. You know, when you say it, it does sound gross.

I'll give you that. Exactly. What does Munkah Munkka herself feel about this you know grandparents now are choosing all kinds of different names for themselves it came up in my family when we had children neither my father nor my mother-in-law wanted to be called granddad or grandma or whatever for a lot of the same reasons as russell horton the grand dude, what we spoke about earlier. My dad took the Italian, because he is a partially Italian-American, the Italian nono for his name.

And my mother-in-law took her own name, which is Gwen, and turned it into Gwenny rather than Granny. So they're both very affected people. But they had that right to choose. Munka Mucca is still living, right? Am I right? Yes. Yeah. Where is she? Off with Liz having a grand old time not fighting? Yes. Well, I did ask her actually this fall when I saw her earlier. Oh, I know it was the summer. And she, you know, very firmly and fully sided with me and Liz that it's Muckah. Do you have evidence of this conversation?

I did not record the conversation. No did you force her to sign something? I tried. Yeah did you withhold medicine from her? Yes. Until she agreed with you? That's a terrible thing to do. I apologize that I accused you of elder abuse but it is a little suspicious

that you had a private conversation in which she fully affirmed your side of the story and there is no record of it whatsoever, Julia. Come on. Well. Not admissible. Okay. Donna, have you spoken to Munkah Munkah about this?

Yes. And she just remembers Munkah. She doesn't remember Munkah. She is in her 90s. Remember Munkah? She is in her 90s. But she also was quick to point out that we don't choose our grand names. She said the children ultimately choose them, the grandchildren.

Oh, Gwenny and Nana would disagree with you on that one. They might, yeah. And so would Grand Dude. I believe your mom is of a different era. Well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Yeah. But clarify for me, what did Munkah Munkah recall to you? Well, actually, she spoke to my husband, and I was listening in on the conversation. And she said she remembers Munkah, you know, because we had called her about a Christmas ornament I had made when Liz was a baby.

And the Christmas ornament said to Monka and Granddad. And I had embroidered that on it. So we called to see if she still had that, but she doesn't. They moved several times. It got lost. So all of the hard evidence has mysteriously disappeared. Yeah. Yeah, that's right, Julia.

Obviously, the two words are very similar, and I'm finding myself sort of getting a little lost in here. The embroidery said, what was spelled on the embroidery, Donna? M-O-N-K-A. Julia, do you dispute this piece of embroidery? Well, I'm thinking my mom embroidered it, so of course she did Munkah. Right. One thing I keep coming back to in this case is why? Why are you fighting about this?

I mean, Julia, I understand you don't like the sound of it, and both you and Liz feel it should be Munkah. But Donna, why won't you make an adjustment so that your daughter won't be upset. I have tried, but it is so ingrained that it was Munkah. That sometimes without thinking, and I have written Munkah on occasion, but sometimes I forget. And I, you know, if I'm writing a text or something, I just write Munkah because that's how I think of it. And do you have a theory as to why this bothers Julia so much? Does she always need to be right?

Possibly. Well, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that would help me a lot if you agreed with me. She is very stubborn, as Liz will attest. She is very stubborn, but then I guess she comes by it naturally. I'm also stubborn. Now, Julia, you are yourself a mother, is that correct? Yes, that's correct. You have a child?

Yes, he's just turned one years old, about a month ago. You know, now, of course, Donna, you are a grandmother. And have you guys figured out what your son will call your mother, Julia? Well, no, he's not quite speaking yet. So I think she's trying to say grandma to him. His other grandmother is Gaga to her other grandchildren. So I think everything is on the table except that. Well, obviously, Donna, you have to be Goo Goo.

I'm making a note of that. That might be an order. We'll see what happens. Okay. Oh, no. You mentioned, Donna, that your mother-in-law, Munkamucka, believes whatever the children choose should be the name. Yes. It's a very Park Slopean idea that the children should name us and rule us and tell us who

we are and give us our identity. Do you believe in that or do you want to choose a name for yourself? Because I'm leaning heavily on Gugu at this point. I just think of myself as grandma. My husband wants to be called honored grandfather and I can see that that's going to be a problem. Would you be okay with honored grand dude? High honorable grand dude? He might. He might. But we'll have to see when Oliver can speak and tell us what our names are. Now, Julia, your mom just referred to your son as Oliver.

Do you agree that that is that child's name? As far as I know, yes. Do you have an opinion, Julia, on what Donna should be called by your son? No, I think that's up to her and him. They can figure it out. Right. you know her and him they can they can figure it out right now see you know donna if i were you i'd be working on oliver starting now just saying call me monka monka your mother hates this name call me monka i am monka that's a great idea and this other woman is grand monka and that is how

it shall always be oliver and then you give him pieces of Turkish delight to bribe him. That's a great idea. What a nice suggestion. It's a pretty good idea. John, thank you so much for bringing up Turkish delight. I had this Turkish delight. It's a long story, but I was in this snowy forest, and a woman came up on a sleigh, a spectacular-looking woman, gave me a little bit of Turkish Delight. It was so good.

Did she look a little like Tilda Swinton? Yeah, absolutely. And I said, how can I get some more of this Turkish Delight? And anyway, she gave me a whole thing, a set of stuff that I have to do, and I've been working on it. But I can't stop thinking about that Turkish delight. Well, it is a flavorless gelatin.

From England. What child wouldn't do anything? Even I, a fan of family members, would certainly betray all of my brothers and sisters for just a little bit of Turkish delight held out in a bone-white hand in the middle of winter. I'm in a cold sweat thinking about those jelly cubes. This is a reference to the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, Donna and Julia, in case you didn't get it.

No, I got it. All right, good. I don't know what people know these days. You didn't even get my USA Today reference earlier. That was weird. I know. Sorry. Julia, do you agree that you're stubborn?

Yes. Are there any damages that are caused to anyone in your family by your grandmother having two different names that sound a lot alike? Myself aside? Well, I mean, what's the damage? I guess it's just uncomfortable. I guess I just like things to be nice and sweet and tidy. You don't like there being ambiguity in this world? No ambiguity.

That sometimes the cat in the box is named Mucca and sometimes the cat in the box is named Mucca. Yes. All right. Schrodinger's? Oh, it's actually pronounced Monkinger's cat. Got it. It's a different paradox. Right.

It's about what happens if you put a cat in a box and then stick it in the mud with some fish. Right. You know how common it is that fish get stuck in mud and they make a noise?

It's a similar situation. So you would have me rule that your mother, what, must police herself constantly? Yeah, if she could just do that. Oh, okay. Good. So ruled. Or, you know, refer to her as Regina or your grandmother or Mucca. If she could try.

Would you accept she who may not be named? Sure, yeah. So it's not consistency you want. It's really your dislike of the sound of that particular word. Correct. And Donna, why is that? Do you just feel it is unreasonable to be asked to make this change? I do.

I really don't see the point of having to change it. It's how I think of her. It's what I use a lot of the time. I try to be consistent with Julia and say, I'll try to do that. But I often forget. And it just seems so automatic because for years, it was automatically Munker. When did this dispute arise? When she was a teenager? Yes. And why do you think it happened? What changed in Julia's life that she started picking this fight? She became a teenager and argumentative.

I mean, what's interesting to me is that Julia took a stand on this, whereas Liz basically wrote us a letter saying, I long suffered in silence, afraid to contradict my mother. I'm so intimidated I cannot even appear in the courtroom today. Please accept this letter. I'm leaving the country. I mean, does that track with your understanding of your two daughters? That there are different personalities, yes. But I mean, is this reflective of other ways that she is in life? In a way.

An example, we always tried to let Julia feel more empowered because she was the second daughter and the second child. And because she was younger, often things would not go her way. So one of the things that we were remembering the other day was that when she was about eight years old, we went to a restaurant, the four of us, and the waiter came to the table and said, would you like dessert? And we all turned and looked at Julia as if she was going to make that decision. And I think, you know, that's often how it was with her, how we tried to include her and have her be part of the decision making, I guess. And what did Julia choose for dessert for the table? I don't even remember. Turkish delight, perhaps? Maybe Turkish delight.

Turkish delight, perhaps? Maybe Turkish delight. Obviously, you created a monster. Yes, I think that, yeah, looking back on it, I guess we did. So, Julia, do you expect that if I were to order in your favor, that your mom would even adhere to my ruling? She is a grown human being. I hate to say that, you know, she is beyond the reach of my authority once we hang up she could just be munka munka monkeying all day long and you have not prepared a compelling case other than i don't like the sound of that

that would have an emotional appeal such that your mother would uh you. It's just that you want what you want. Well, I want what I want. I have requested it politely, and I've made jokes about it. I think that she wants what she wants, and we want what we want, and I don't have a lot of faith that she'll draw it here, but I'm hopeful that next time it comes up, if I mention the podcast, she'll be like, okay. No, I don't think that's going to happen. I've had just a few dozen minutes worth of very nice conversation with your mom, and I can tell if I order in your favor, she's going to like, no.

You know, she's going to be like, I don't even know what I'm doing. What is a podcast? Why am I here? Who is this stranger? Why did I ever let you order dessert? Donna, if I were to find in your favor, you would ask me to order Julia to just stop being bothered by it. Just to let it go, because it doesn't happen all the time. And don't make

that noise. It doesn't happen all the time. Speaking of noises, for someone who is so attuned to noises, Julia, the drama of your gasp at the simple request to let it go as though that were the most unimaginable thing possible. What? Let it go. I'm going to ask you to explain that in a moment, but please finish your thought, Donna. That was pretty much it. Just to let it go and to let it just slide away. Just forget about it. Julia, do you have trouble letting things go? No. Oops, I lost my headphones. go. Yeah. Oops.

I lost my headphones. Help. Jessie, you gasped so hard that you knocked the headphones off of Donna's head. That's true. That's exactly what happened. Very dramatic. I know. I was gasping because she said it doesn't happen all of the time.

Oh, okay. So you dispute that account? I dispute that. Hmm. Hmm. Okay. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I am going over the river and through these woods to Gugu and Gaga's house, and I'm going to have myself a gingerbread cookie, and I will be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Julia, how are you feeling about your case right now? Not as confident as when I came in.

Why is that? I think he has a point that she won't abide by the ruling. I think my mom made a decent point that, you know, she's just used to it and she thinks of it in her head. And I don't think I made my case as well as I could have. Were you intimidated? A little bit. Donna, how are you feeling about your chances? I have no idea.

I have no idea at all. Have either of you ever actually had Turkish delight? Yes. What did you think of it? It was good. I didn't think it was tasteless. And mine had walnuts in it. Yeah, well, premium varieties consist largely of chopped dates, pistachios, and hazelnuts or walnuts bound by the gel. Yes, that's what I remember.

It's a confection based on a gel of starch and sugar. In the production process, soapwort may be used as an emulsifying additive. I usually check candy wrappers for soapwort. If it's soapwort, it's a go. That's my motto. Did you know that soapwort is also a plant called bouncing bet? No, but that's awesome that you know that. That is infinity percent more soapwort knowledge than I expected you to bring to this podcast.

You're welcome. Well, Juliette, Donna, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say in just a minute. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie,

Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm.

Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. First of all, I did not go to Goo Goo and Gaga's house after all. I took a different route and I forgot all about my ice castle that is full of family members turned to stone.

Because I love family members that much. I want to keep them with me all the time. Love them. The Turkish delight. I'd do anything for it. I am obviously inclined to rule in Donna's favor because she knows that soapboard is also a bouncing bet. That was the most incredible thing I've ever heard in my life. And because this dispute is fairly dumb, I kind of wanted to... And because this dispute is fairly dumb, I kind of wanted to... I would ask Donna to indulge this court and please tell me a little bit more about what Bouncing Bet is and why you know what you know. It's a wildflower. It's in the same family as...

Oh, I forget the name of the other one. Crimson something or other. You can dry it in olden days, in pioneer days. They used to take the dried pods, empty out the seeds, and use them in flower arrangements. So it's pretty. It's pretty. Julia, listen to that. The wisdom of your elder.

She's full of knowledge i was initially going to say how could how dare you accuse your own mother of misremembering her aged mother no i how dare you well i was going to say let me finish i was going to say how dare you accuse your own mother of misremembering the story of how the name of the grandmother came to be and then she couldn't remember what Crimson whatever was called. And then I realized, well, maybe she doesn't remember. I don't know. Hard to tell. She knows what bouncing bed is.

That's pretty cool. Any discussion of grandparent names would be remiss if I did not mention the names of my friend, Jonathan Colton's paternal grandparents Tuffy and BJ for a long time knowing Jonathan that was one of my favorite stories that his grandfather was known as BJ for big jock and his grandmother was known as Tuffy because she was tough. But then I learned later on that I had the story wrong. That in fact, they were called Tuffy and BJ, but by Jonathan's father. The grandchildren did not call them Tuffy and BJ. That was the

grownups, what they called them. The grandchildren called them mom and baba, which makes more sense because children aren't very inventive. And sometimes they don't speak so good. And instead of grandmother, they say munka. And sometimes over time that gets mutated into mucca, which becomes mucca or whatever. But then, you know, the word, like all living languages, it develops and evolves. And it is perfectly understandable and plausible that it might have originally been munka but even misremembered by liz the originator as mucca

because you guys both grew up calling her mucca right we can acknowledge that yes so there is no baseline who is right and who is wrong because all the recollections are perfectly plausible given in the mix of time in the marble mouths of toddlers it's really just a question of going forward you julia do not like the term munka because it sounds like what a fish in the mud or a foot getting stuck in the mud it's one of your little weirdsies as linda holmes occasional guest bailiff might might say, right? You just don't like it. Yes.

I don't understand that, because you know what word sounds terrible to me? Mucca. No. That sounds like Turkish delight being dropped into a puddle. No. And not even that good pistachio Turkish delight, but cut-rate Turkish delight

being dropped into a puddle of cold slush and getting ruined. Sorry, Jesse, I know that you hate this metaphor because you love Turkish Delight so much. Oh, I got to get some more of that Turkish Delight. Don't get so upset. You're about to drop it into that slush puddle, mucka. Mucka sounds like yucca root, which is a terrible name for a root. It's gross.

That's a gross name. Sorry, Julia. Do you disagree? I don't care. I'm right. Mucka is much more pleasing to my ear than Muckah, but ultimately my ear isn't what matters here. Since Munkah Muckah herself seems to be neutral on this topic and really perhaps just wants to be left alone in peace at this time about it. What it comes down to is, I think, ultimately the messiness of these names,

because they are so often bestowed by children. And while grandparents strive hard, according to USA Today and my own experience, to choose names that do not mark them as old, which is understandable. I don't like getting older. And they choose names like grand dude or honorable grandfather. that actually makes them sound pretty awesome that attempt to hold on to or to forge an identity is often thwarted by kids who just call them you know no matter how many times you say i would like to be referred to as instead they call you mum this is the kind of the ambiguity that you dislike julia the switching between munka and mucca is precisely the ambiguity that your life has already been flooded with now having a one-year-old agent of chaos in your house. And all kinds of things are going to get all sorts of strange names. And you may not even know where they come from.

No discussion of children making up strange names would be complete without another story from Jonathan Colton when he was was a toddler, he was walking with his mom and suddenly burst into tears, if I remember the story correctly, and just started saying, down, D'Ambo B, down, D'Ambo B. And she said, what are you talking about? And he said, down, D'Ambo B, you know, you know. But she did not know

and still does not know to this day. Nor does Jonathan recall. you know but she did not know and still does not know to this day nor does jonathan recall it is an eternal mystery because of this i am moved to a rather unusual decision on the one hand i do not wish to be in the position of bossing around a grown woman who knows that soapboard is the same thing who was raised two children who has other things to deal with in her life and does not need to be constantly policing herself to say the word that makes her daughter happy when she has a very clear memory of her own memory of the word as it was originated.

But then again, there is the issue of Julia, you know, who likes what she likes and she simply can't stand hearing that word. It grosses her out, even though it is well established that muck is grosser than monkey. And so luckily there is an arbiter. It is not Liz.

It is not Honorable Grand Dude. It is not even Mucca Mucca herself. Let the wisdom of the child speak. What you're going to do is you're going to get Oliver. You're going to get Oliver to make the final decision. And I'm trying to think of how to do this because I presume he's one years old. He can't read, right? Not yet.

He's almost there. Honorable grandfather. And you and your mom, Julia, are all going to sit with oliver and at one point the neutral party honorable grandfather will say oliver which word do you like better munka or mucka munka or mucka and if he makes a, let that choice be the forever name. Because growing old is surrendering to some degree to the young. And while you are accustomed, Julia, to having your mom surrender to you, or at least desirous of that, now it is your turn to surrender to your own child. own child. The whims, the weirdnesses, the strange words that Oliver doesn't like to hear, the down-diembo bees in his life that will puzzle you forever. All of that is happening now to you. Your mother's already gone through it. You want a clear-cut answer? Oliver shall decide.

And it's a 50-50 that you're going to be hearing munka for the rest of your life. That is a remedy that this court will order. Unless, Julia, you are willing for me now to rule in your mother's favor. And that you will tolerate this ambiguity between munka and mucca. Knowing that your mom is doing her best not to gross you out by saying the wrong word, but will occasionally lapse. Which do you prefer, Julia? Which thing out of your control are you willing to accept?

My ruling in your mother's favor or throwing it to the mad wisdom of children? I think I can get Oliver on my side. I rule in Donna's favor. I was going to go through with that Oliver thing until I realized just what a dessert ordering monster you are. You have to have it your way. Well, it can't happen anymore. You just threw the whole case back over to Donna.

I apologize, Julia, but that's the way it goes. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Julia, how are you feeling right in this moment? I screwed myself. I could have worked at him at night for bedtime routine.

Maka, maka, maka. I was too honest. You could have just hid in the closet, whispering that. Maybe flickering the light a little. Donna, how are you feeling? I'm fine. I just think it's... Donna, how are you feeling? I'm fine. I just think it's just silly, but I'll continue to try to use muck up if she really likes that.

You're a good mom, Donna, to try and to indulge your daughter even in this. And you know what else, Goo Goo? You're going to be a great Goo Goo grandma. Thanks. Donna, Julia, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Another Judge John Hodgman case. Pow pow! In the books.

Before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank Raven Peters for naming this week's episode, Meemaw in Order. If you want to name a future episode, be sure to like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We put out calls for submissions there. Please also follow us on Twitter at Hodgman and at Jesse Thorne. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJHO. And check out the Maximum Fund subreddit at MaximumFund.reddit.com to chat about this week's episode. We're also on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman, where you can catch the visual evidence for episodes of the program. Be sure to follow us there.

This week's episode recorded by Ben Ellman at the studios of the Radio Foundation in New York. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment. Are you ready, Judge? I am ready. Here's something from Jennifer, who is not our producer. Wouldn't that be horrible if that was how I told

Jennifer Marmer that she was fired? Well, you've been doing a great job, Jennifer, but since you submitted this case, unfortunately, you have to recuse yourself from producing for the rest of your career. Every time my husband goes to the grocery store, he buys ketchup. We have three unopened bottles of ketchup in the pantry.

His reasoning is that we'll eventually need it, and it's better not to be caught empty ketchup-handed. I don't think it's necessary to have a strategic ketchup reserve. One backup bottle is enough. What say you, Judge John Hodgman? Well, first of all, points against Jennifer, not our producer, for not using the term being caught unred-handed because ketchup is red. And also, the best way to eat ketchup is to pour it on your hand and lick it off your palm.

Everyone knows that. Yeah. Honestly, I won't even eat a hand that isn't covered with ketchup. Do you ever have mustard and ketchup on a hand? Yeah. You know what? I'm from San Francisco, so I really don't have strong feelings about this. I'll take whatever hand condiments you want to give me.

I also just went to the German Delicatessen. Shout out to Tip Top Meats in Carlsbad, California. And I bought some German ketchup that's very tasty. It's a little curry flavored. Oh, yeah. That's great. That's great on a dog. Do you know a day from Antarctica, our listener who spent some time in Antarctica, who's no longer living in Antarctica, but he took us down there with him in his ears. When he came to an event of mine in the spring and gave me some, I believe it was Austrian or German, dill mayonnaise in a giant toothpaste tube. Wow. Big foil tube of European mayonnaise with a dill flavor.

And it was the most delightful thing I've ever had. I want more, Dave. And if I forgot the name of the country where you got it, please remind me. I'm sure you're listening and I hope you're staying warm. But the main thing is there are certain condiments that I absolutely believe in stocking up on. Dill mayonnaise for one, absolutely. Mayonnaise itself, my favorite condiment is shelf stable. I'll always keep a backup jar. I mean, it really depends on how much ketchup you use, Jennifer, and how much your husband loves ketchup. Will he lick it off his own hand? In which case, you know, his passion for ketchup might be such that he would feel anxious if he didn't have enough ketchup. It's the classic

saying, John, my hand, my rules. Exactly so. And I would also say that one of the determining factors for how much ketchup you stockpile is how close we are to civilization collapsing. And at this moment in history, I'd say we're definitely in a three bottle situation at minimum. up to three bottles of ketchup in reserve if it makes them feel more comfortable and believe that democracy might continue. And also, I do encourage getting those glass bottles of ketchup that we switched over to glass bottles. And I don't think there's anything wrong with the plastic ones, but it just feels very quintessential to have a big old glass bottle of ketchup. In other words, it's not ketchup unless it's very difficult to get onto your food. I would rather go through the extra work of waiting for the ketchup to dribble out of a glass bottle and drip onto your hamburger or whatever with the classic sound of ketchup dripping.

Monka, monka, monka, monka. I think that does sound gross. Then go through the painful experience of having to fart out ketchup from a plastic squeeze bottle. That's it for this week's episode. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO or email Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. No cases too small. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Monk up, monk up.

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