Judge John Hodgman - Much Ado About Clothing

Episode Date: July 18, 2018

Jason brings the case against his friend, Francisco. They run a community Shakespeare theatre group together. Jason would like to try doing more contemporary and experimental Shakespeare adaptations, but Francisco is opposed. With Summertime Funtime Bailiff Monte Belmonte! Thank you to Chris Ubben for suggesting this week's case! To suggest a title for a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm summertime, fun-time guest bailiff Monty Belmonte from WRSI 93.9 The River in Northampton, Massachusetts, sitting in for Jesse Thorne. This week, much ado about clothing. Two households, both alike in dignity, in fair internetia where we lay our scene. From ancient grudge break to new mutiny where civil blood makes civil hands unclean. Thank you. to the ancient form so oft done, is now the one or so hours traffic of our podcast stage, the which, if you with patient ears attend, what here shall miss, our toil shall strive to mend. Heaven is above all yet, there sits a judge

that no king can corrupt. Prithee, rise, as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents a gallimaufery. Prithee, rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents a gallimaufery. Holy crud, Summertime Funtime Bailiff Monty Belmonte. You really punched up that intro with some Shakespeare. Yeah, I just asked my kids who love Shakespeare and they helped me. Oh, well, this really makes the cultural reference seem really junky.

But I got nothing else, so here it comes. Piehole, thou protector of this damned strumpet, talkst thou to me of piehole? Thou art a traitor. Off with his head. By St. Paul, I shall not dine until I see the same. Those who love me stand and follow me and shutteth thy piehole. Summertime, fun fun time bailiff,

Monty Belmonte, please swear the litigants in pretty rise and raise the Lord's hand. Tis not the many oaths that make the true, but the plain single vow that it's vowed true. I'll take thy word for faith. Not ask thine oath. Who shuns not to break one? We'll sure crack both.

So help you God or whatever? I. I. Ah, see, they said I and not even I do. I know. I noticed. Do you sweareth to abide Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that there is a devilish mercy in the judge, if you'll implore it, that will free your life, but fetter you till death?

I shall. As shall I. Judge Hodgman, proceedeth. Jason and Francisco, you may be seated. Hello, summertime, fun time bailiff, Monty Belmonte. Hello. Before we go into the challenge of cultural reference, let me also say hello to our producer here in Maine, WERU.org's own

Joel Mann. You got any Shakespeare to drop on us, Joel? Uh, yeah. No. Okay, good. Because I'm beginning to feel really like a dum-dum over here. For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, Jason or Francisco, can you name the cultural reference that I paraphrased as I entered the courtroom? Jason, why don't we start with you? What was I quoting from? The unreleased journals of noted Shakespearean actor and maniac Nicol Williamson. The unreleased journals of Shakespeare maniac and actor, Nicole Williamson, has been engraved. That's quite a guess. And I have engraved it into the golden plates of the guess book.

Francisco, what is your guess? I'm looking at Jason here. He's extremely gleeful. He's got this big smile. So, you know what? I'm just going to say Jason Compton in 2016 in The Play of Macbeth. Jason Compton in 2016 in The Play of Macbeth. Jason Compton, that's an actor? Oh, yeah, he's a really good sexy actor. When you see him on stage, mm, mm-mm. Okay. Hang on, I'm going to look him up for one second. Well, geez, you know, I don't see any photos for the famous Shakespearean actor Jason Compton.

I see a ZocDoc entry for a Dr. Jason Compton optometrist of New York, New York. Is that who you meant, Francisco? Or who did you mean specifically? Oh, I think if you look at the third page of your Google search, you may be able to find him there. I need you to be playing with me now, Francisco. Stop playing mind games with your judge. So I do mean of a local sensation here in Madison, Wisconsin. Oh, you're talking about Jason, your co-litigant? Yes, as a matter of fact, I am. Oh, I see. All right. No. All right. Gotcha. At first, I thought you were going to say

Jason Compson, character from The Sound and the Fury, which obviously takes its title from Shakespeare, one of the Shakespeare movies. But anyway, all guesses are wrong. For two guys who present Shakespeare in Madison, Wisconsin, I am surprised that you did not catch my reference to a Shakespeare play called Richard III. a Shakespeare play called Richard III. Richard III. Specifically, Ian McKellen's Richard III, which was filmed in 1995 and is set in modern dress. It is set in the 1930s with Ian McKellen's villainous, a serpent to the throne, Richard III, essentially presenting as a 1930s British fascist sympathizer and wearing essentially an SS garb. Because that is what this dispute is about. Aside from just confusing me and dropping a lot of Shakespeare on me, Monty,

it's also about whether or not Jason and Francisco's Shakespeare plays should be presented in possibly contemporary clothes and settings, or whether it should all just be puffy shirts all a live long day. I believe that that's a Shakespeare reference, isn't it? All a live long day. Didn't Shakespeare write, I've been working on the railroad? Yes. Yeah. So many words were coined by Shakespeare. Did you know that, Monty? So many words. I did. Like, for example, a mixing board. Like what we're working on here at WERU. WERU was coined by Shakespeare. It was in, WERU was in Twelfth Night, if I remember correctly. I believe as well. It was from the line, thy 30th anniversary of WERU arrives this year. Donate at WERU.org.

Is that correct, Joel? That's correct. Listen, everybody within the sound of my voice, it's summertime. It's fun time. We got summertime fun time. Monty Bailiff. Monty Bailiff. I like that.

Monty Bailiff Monty is perfect. We've got taciturn producer Joel Mann here in the house. So anyway, thanks for all your patience as we all got reacquainted, Jason and Francisco. And then thank you, Francisco, for breaking my mind with your reference to your co-litigant. That's a first in the Judge John Hodgman work. So let's move on to the case. Jason, you bring this case against Francisco? I do.

And what is your contention? Tell us where you are, how you guys know each other, and what you're doing with Shakespeare out there in cheese country in Wisconsin and what you want to do differently. So Francisco and I have been theatrical collaborators since late 2011 when we met doing a live action match game in which I played Stanley Tucci and he played a manic bilingual announcer. And we've collaborated on a number of things since then, including an awful lot of Shakespeare from 2012 to the present.

We've run Madison Shakespeare Company in a nebulous and awkward power sharing arrangement for the past three years. And what I'm pushing for is not specifically modern dress. It's that what I refer to as generic old timey Shakespeare land should be just as much of an outlandish idea as saying, well, let's do King John, but everybody is a sled dog in the Iditarod or let's do all's well that ends well in Atlantis. I want every production to put every one of those concepts under the same microscope. Well, let's do Richard III set in Richard III's time. Well, okay, let's discuss that. Why would we do that?

What would that mean? Rather than taking that as the default, which I believe Francisco does, I want everything to get the same level of scrutiny. I'm just going to say that Joel Mann was just fanning himself the minute you said

all's well that ends well in Atlantis. I think he was like this guy is out of his mind no one knows what you're talking about it's a very bold opening statement jason let me see if i understand it you want to interrogate every production of shakespeare that you do and find a setting and a casting and a costuming that interrogates the play individually rather than just set it in generic old--timey Ren Faire Shakespeare-y land. Is that correct? That is correct, Your Honor.

I do have specific reasons for that, which I will get into when you're ready. We'll get to all your reasons. Francisco? Yes, Your Honor? You are the rival co-head of the Madison Shakespeare Company. That is correct. He describes it as a nebulous power-sharing arrangement. You are rival dukes who fight for your respective visions.

We rule the kingdom in a nice way. And so our arguments are behind closed doors. But after we leave that said room and we have our scars and all that, what everyone sees out there is a good product. So that's what we go with. So Francisco, the Madison Shakespeare Company, I'm going to say it loud and proud. I don't mind buzz marketing a local, presumably not-for-profit theater company. Tell me about your theater company.

How many productions have you put on? How frequently do they go? And what do you have planned for the coming season? So we have done several productions and not just what the argument here, if I may, is about the main stage shows. I don't, I'm not asking you about your argument. I'm asking you for some background. Oh, sure. No problem. Maybe the rival Duke is better to run this Shakespeare company because, you know what, Jason, I'll give you a chance to answer my question since Francisco flubbed it. Thank you, Your Honor.

Madison Shakespeare Company has done seven main stage shows since 2012. Our current schedule calls for one in the summer and one in the winter. Our most recent, which closed yesterday, was Taming of the Shrew. Our next in February 2019 will be Henry IV Part II. We have done some number, about 20, of smaller shows being one-off pop-ups or collections of scenes or staged readings, but it is the seven main stage shows that are under the microscope today, Your Honor. Thank you for your clarity.

Follow-up question, if you will, and I will. How long has the Shakespeare Company existed, the Madison Shakespeare Company? And what is its mission? And how does it get money to put on performances? It has existed since 2012. It did go on hiatus in 2014. And Francisco and I revived it in the summer of 2015. We are self-funded.

I started out when we restarted, assuming all the financial risk. We have been able to sustain our operations through receipts. But that is in the entirety of the money that we have used since 2015 has been either seeded by me or brought in by productions. We do not currently get outside grants. And is it just the two of you guys in one of your living rooms doing the plays alone, or do you go to a theater and show them to the public? No, we have used several venues in Madison, ranging from established theaters to small venues like coffee shops and taverns. But we've played everywhere from a large soccer stadium to several purpose-built theaters to then found spaces as well. What soccer stadium did you play in? Breece Stevens Field, which is on Madison's Isthmus and has recently

been renovated and is bringing in actually a minor league pro soccer team next year. How many people attended your soccer show? The shows that were run there, Drew, the very first show was Julius Caesar in 2012, and that had houses in, I think it averaged about 160, 170 per performance for that first one. How many people can sit in the soccer field? Several thousand. But it was not intended to fill the entire space. No, no, of course not.

So was it all on the field in the round? The audience was in a corner of the stadium, and we were in a corner of the field playing them. So no, it wasn't in the round. They were wedged into a corner corner you were playing soccer against the audience while you were performing yes your honor uh in indoor soccer adapted for the outdoors uh playing off the walls and uh and really getting into it well what what a wonderful venture and thank you for answering my questions clearly and uh clearly you are the guy who needs to be going out there

in the community explaining what this is all about. Francisco, you must be the ideas man. Yeah, I do have a lot of ideas, yes. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join

the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge Johnodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at made in jesse you've heard of tom calicchio the famous chef right yeah from uh the restaurant uh craft and uh did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with made in pots and pans really what's an example the braised short ribs they're made in made-in pots and pans. Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're made in, made in. The Rohan duck, made in, made in. Riders of Rohan, duck!

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learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep. That's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10 minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world and you get to hear the sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird, hyperacademic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while

you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. So what I've heard so far is that you're throwing Shakespeare into coffee houses, into theaters, into soccer pitches, into taverns. You're already doing Shakespeare in unusual contexts. What's the problem with setting All's Well That Ends Well in Atlantis? There is no problem setting All's Well That Ends Well in Atlantis. Good. All right setting all's well that ends well in Atlantis. Good.

All right. I found Jason's favor. Goodbye. You understand what this podcast is about. You're supposed to take a position, defend it. Right, right, right. And I was going to head in that way. The arguments that always fall into whenever we're thinking about these things, and again,

we're thinking about our main stage productions, is that my thought pattern is always leaning first towards the, as we put it, the old-timey Shakespeare clothing. You look at all the settings that we've been to, and we do a lot of shows, not the main stage shows per se, but we do a lot of the other shows in regular modern clothing. As a matter of fact, we did just do Taming of the Shrew in modern clothing. But anyone can do that. You can go ahead and dress anybody in blacks and go out there and go like, okay, great, we're going to go ahead and give them a hat. And you can go right out there and look, now you are Richard III.

Perfect. But for the mainstay shows, again, I'd like to have a bigger vision. There's a lot more people that go see that. And we sometimes do them outside. And there is the beautiful trees. There's the lake right behind that. It's a beautiful setting. And the second you have people coming out in this old-timey clothing, it really transforms everyone.

You can be outside the theater and you can see somebody in modern clothing. But when you enter that theater and you see somebody coming out in chain mail, that's impressive. And it really sets the tone for what people are about to see. So that's a transformational experience that I'd like to give. And that's my first thought. And my first thought is like, okay, if we're going to do Henry IV Part I, let's go ahead and set it in that setting, in that historical setting. And especially since we do have somebody who loves to do armor, loves to do weapons and things like that, and is a great resource, and we have that access, why not take people back in time and go ahead and do this? And I know that oftentimes people say, yeah, we see it in old timey all the time. But unfortunately, in my history, I have seen so many Shakespeare shows and movies that don't do it in old timey. And this is going from the East Coast to the West Coast.

And yes, there are some that are out there. But for the most part, you get all sorts across the gamut. Even in New York, you have, oh, yeah, let's do Shakespeare naked. And that's fine. Even in New York, folks. All right. I take your point, Francisco. Thank you. And I think it's well said. I mean, Jason, Francisco points out, if you're performing out in a soccer field or in an outdoor space, there is a certain pageantry to seeing someone come out in chain mail and in old-timey fantasy-like clothes. And there is a certain showpersonship to it, which putting out people in regular modern-day street clothes, it doesn't draw the eye as greatly furthermore if i'm going to restate francisco's point here uh you guys have someone who can make chain mail for

god's sake forsooth francisco who on your team is making this chain mail and uh and weapons oh she's uh it's funny because she's actually a nurse and a blacksmith so that's uh she's done hang on hang on hang on hang on francisco and jason uh thank you very much for calling this podcast is over you're fired please immediately go and get your woman friend who is a nurse and a blacksmith so that i can talk to her for the rest of my life. What is the name of your friend who is a nurse and a blacksmith? Mariah. So your friend's name is Mariah and she is a nurse and a blacksmith and she is your armorer for productions?

Yes. And she was able to, with her friends, able to provide tons of armor for a lot of individuals and these amazing swords that we were able to rent for our last production of Henry IV Part I. And they sound fabulous on stage when you hear the blades hitting each other, when you hear the chemo coming down. It's just, it's great. And so the production you have coming up is which one? So right now what we have coming up is? It's Henry IV Part II that is in dispute.

Well, the bigger point is that Francisco has planned three more shows all in generic old-timey Shakespeare land. That is what created the conflict that forced me to seek Internet justice, Your Honor. land. That is what created the conflict that forced me to seek internet justice, Your Honor. Well, it would seem that if you've done Henry IV Part I in Mariah's chain mail and with the clangety-clang of swords, to do Henry IV Part II in contemporary times would be a little confusing to your audience, no? Would you- Your Honor, we did Richard II, which is the prequel to Henry IV, Part 1, in a modern dress setting. Francisco changed it. There was a different director for Richard. When Francisco came in to direct the next link, he wanted to take it to Generical Timey Shakespeare Land.

So we've already disrupted that concept. I appreciate that. But this is Part 2 of the same play. Are you going to open Henry IV Part II with a big sign that says, flash forward several hundred years? Because then I might allow it. Even if I were to concede that one, the fact is that Francisco has put two more productions on the docket after that, all of which he intends to put in Generical Timey Shakespeare Lab. Well, isn't that what the people of Wisconsin want? Do you feel that your audience is clamoring for more interpretive and experimental Shakespeare productions?

Your Honor, I believe that we should fight against false nostalgia. And by that, I mean, I believe a lot of the affection for generical timey Shakespeare land is driven by 1970s BBC productions that came over to the US in school films and PBS broadcasts and time-life videos. It's not even our nostalgia, it's England's nostalgia. And it's only their nostalgia because the BBC could only afford one set of costumes and they used it for everything. They used it for Shakespeare. They used it for soap operas. They used it for Doctor Who. Okay, you guys, you're making your points, usually about five minutes into your 25 minute monologues. I appreciate the passion that you both feel. And I also, the court definitely appreciates your pandering ploy of denouncing nostalgia, which I also loathe.

So I hear you. But your defense does suggest, because I said, well, isn't this what the people of Wisconsin want? Or do you feel they're clamoring for more interpretive and experimental Shakespeare productions? feel they're clamoring for more interpretive and experimental Shakespeare productions. You went on this long King Learian rant against people who want to witness Shakespeare produced in the old BBC style, which to me suggests that you do feel that the audience in Madison does expect this kind of BBC generic old-timey Shakespeare land, and you want to stick it to them. Is that not so? I mean, or expand their minds.

They have a place to get that already, Your Honor. And there is a professional theater company about an hour west of Madison with a very large budget, a very large endowment that has established a four-decade-long reputation of doing sterling work in generic old-timey Shakespeare land. Do they have their own nurse blacksmith? I ask you that. They may not have their own nurse blacksmith, but they do have a dedicated year-round staff that will always be able to do better generic old-timey Shakespeare land than we can beg, borrow, and steal. I believe we will do our best work when we push at

those boundaries and do things that a theater company with a $15 million endowment to protect can't do. Francisco, Jason is saying that the market in Wisconsin is saturated with chain mail. I can't say that it is, actually. The theater is an hour away, and we're here in the city. And again, if we have the resources to be able to do this and give this experience to individuals, why not utilize it? We have our, as a matter of fact, our Henry IV. He is a sea captain and used to do a lot of Renaissance and things like that. And he comes in with his own costumes. He comes in with his own musical instruments that are from that era.

And again, it's exciting to see those things. Stand by. You've laid a lot of information on me that I now have to tease out. When you say our Henry IV, you mean your cast member who is playing Henry IV. That is correct, yes. And if I put all the facts that I got from that sentence together, playing Henry IV. That is correct, yes. And if I put all the facts that I got from that sentence together, this person is a sea captain slash musician slash Ren Faire performer who has all of his own costumes. Yeah, he does. Is he really? I believe all of them except sea captain. I mean,

I'm not saying that that's a lie, but I'm trying to clarify. Is he a real sea captain or is he Renfair sea captain? No, he's a real sea captain. He's got his license to captain clipper ships. So the sailboats that go out there. And he's in charge of that. Go out there where, sir? On what body of water? Well, the most he's done from what I've heard in stories, he's a great storyteller, is over in the Great Lakes. Of course, all sea captains are. You got to see you come back with tall tales. Yeah, so he's also done it out at sea. But I think some of the ones that I've enjoyed of his stories were the ones where he talked about the Great Lakes.

Especially when I first came here to the Midwest. The Great what? The Great what? The Great Lakes. What? Which seas are those, sir? He's a lake captain at best. Jason, have you brought specific ideas to Francisco that he has shot down?

Oh, repeatedly, Your Honor. Well, what are some of them? Oh, dear. The usual workflow for us is that I present Francisco with six different plays and six different concepts, and he says, okay, let's do this seventh thing. Okay, but Nate, but again, my Shakespeare quote, specificity is the soul of narrative. I understand your honor. Uh, my frustration is not about a particular pet project. It's about the doing away with the assumption that generic old timey Shakespeare line must be the first project. Francisco directs is the stage director for most of our main stage shows right now.

So and which is indeed where the the awkward power struggle comes into play, because were this a normal theater company, he would either quit or be fired. But because we are trying to preserve our relationship, we need outside help. Oh, snap. To quote another great Shakespeare neologism, Midsummer's Night Dream. Oh, snap, saith Buck. Francisco, Jason just pulleth rank on you. Jason, Francisco is the stage director. Aside from being friends, you have titles. What is your title in the company? Nominally, I am the executive director and Francisco is the artistic director. He also has more often than not been the stage director for the individual productions.

And you're providing the coin purse for these plays? I did initially, and now my job is to produce, to promote, to keep things running on a day-to-day basis to the best of my ability. So your artistic director, Francisco, has an artistic vision that is not entirely aligned with yours. And what you said was, in a normal circumstance, he would have quit or been fired by now. Yes. I'm just reading that out from, I'm just making sure I understand that's in the record.

Yes, it is. I have Joel Mann here on a stenography machine. He's our court stenographer. You getting all this, Joel? Got it, Judge. Thank you. So, Francisco, how do you respond to that pulling of rank? Well, then if this is the direction we're going to go with that, Mr. Executive Director, if you could tell me, we did two productions in modern dress. And I'm sure you have the numbers for that.

Did they outdo the amount of people that came to watch? Macbeth, Julius Caesar, Anthony Cleopatra, and, of course, our sold-out houses where we unfortunately had to turn people away for Henry IV Part I? They did not. Snappeth redux, say the puck. By the way, my Shakespeare pastiche is embarrassing. I just do not know enough. So the fancy dress or the old-timey dress are more popular than the modern dress. Is that what you're saying, Francisco?

The audiences have clamored to come see those shows. All right, look. Here's the thing. Jason, you've done performances in both what we'll call classic billowy shirt garb, chain mail, and swordsies. And then you've done modern day dress interpretations. You've gone back and forth. There's been give and take.

You're asking me to order Francisco to change the default that every production should. What do you want me to do? You want me to change the way he thinks about Shakespeare? me to do? You want me to change the way he thinks about Shakespeare? Well, I understand that would be a bit much to ask, but that every of those artistic decisions needs the same level of scrutiny and justification that All's Well That Ends Well in Atlantis would. Are you going to do All's Well That Ends Well in Atlantis? I mean, we keep talking about it, so I think at some point it's got to happen. Has it ever been said before today? Is that something you've actually been talking about? Is that something you created for the podcast?

No, this was just a concrete example so that we would have something to talk about. Well, I would like a more concrete example. If you have Henry IV Part II coming up and then two more main stage productions, what are those productions, Jason, and what are your visions for them in terms of dress and setting? So the next three things that Francisco has lined up are Henry the fourth part to Mary wives of Windsor and then Henry the fifth Mary wives of Windsor because it carries over the character of Falstaff from the two Henry the fourth plays

and Henry the fifth because it's the it's the sequel to that. But if we produce those all in sequence, then we'll have another two years ahead of us. It's like the goddamn Marvel universe up in here. I know. Shakespeare was the first shared universe. He kind of was. That's some incredible IP that he laid down in the 16th century.

We have kicked around the idea of doing Richard III in space, which was a concept we kind of stumbled into this February, a kind of a gritty Battlestar Galactica-esque. England is actually a fleet on the move. But I'm not sure how comfortable Francisco really is with that. Francisco, how comfortable are you with Richard III in space? I'm comfortable with Richard III in space? I'm comfortable with Richard III in space. That sounds like a really, really fun idea to go ahead and do that, especially in Battlestar Galactica style. So that could be very fun. Which Battlestar are we talking about?

Oh, the original one. Are you sure, Jason? Are you talking about the 70s Battlestar Galactica or the Ron Moore David Icke reimagining? I meant the newer one, which has lots of gritty people being depressed. You guys cannot get along. I knew it was that Jason was going to want the gritty militaristic one. And that, of course, Francisco was going to want with capes and feathered hair. Because that's old timey. Francisco, if I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me rule? I think what I would actually I would love is for Jason to trust and be able to say, hey, if this is the artistic aspect that I'm seeing here,

let's go and talk about that first rather than, because in turn, I believe he's forcing me to rethink and not think about like, let's go old time. Let's go in classical rather. Let's go in this regard. But if I see a show and we're going to do this show, and if we have the finances for it, let's go with this artistic vision, because this is what our audiences are really enjoying. And it's something that I really enjoy to do as well, and bring it out to everyone else. You are obviously the artist of the two, because I didn't understand much of what you said. I'm sorry.

You express yourself in full productions, not simple answers to questions. That is artistic. If I were to interpret what you just said, you want Jason to trust your artistic vision, correct? When you say the artistic vision, you mean your artistic vision, correct? Correct. You feel untrusted in your artistic vision currently that he is undermining you by

suggesting these things? I wouldn't go extreme on undermining, no. But definitely I would love for him to start walking in my shoes for a moment. And I would love for him to, when we discuss, hey, we're going to do this production, I'd love for him to go like, okay, how can we make it happen in classical form? Let's him be the one to bring that up first. And then, of course, if the finances don't allow it, then we'll think about something else. But if we can do it, why not? But when you say you want him to walk in your shoes, I mean, basically, you're asking me to

make him the artistic director. I mean, this is it. But what I take from what you're saying is that you would like his default to be classical productions. And only if finances do not allow the swordsmithing and the chain mail linking and the crown building or whatever it is, that you then go for a different kind of production. Is that correct? Yes. I'll go with that. Thank you. Jason, what would you have me rule if i were to rule in your favor uh if you're looking for something specific uh you know with the the shows ahead uh that these

three that he is locked in that would mean that only two of our 10 uh main stage shows would be not in generic old-timey shakespeare land if we need to set a a quota uh i i would be not in generic old-timey Shakespeare land. If we need to set a quota, I would be prepared to stipulate to that. May I bring up the evidence of costumer burnout that I submitted to the court? Sure. Now, I'm looking here at what you sent, and there are a number of photos here that are going to be available, of course, on the Judge John Hodgman page at MaximumFund.org and on our own Instagram account at Judge John Hodgman, all one word, all small letters. And I see a lot of photos of some very beautiful looking productions in both period garb, Julius Caesar,

you got a lot of Roman garb there. And in contemporary garb, Richard II, 2017, you got some really cool looking sort of semi-fascist uniforms in here. It looks good. Everything looks great. Both the old-timey and the new-timey look very well costumed and very well acted. So nice job. So what is the issue with regard to costumer burnout? So the costumer for Macbeth and As You Like It runs a shop that is dedicated to steampunk and cosplay.

It's fantastic. If you like Mariah, you'd love Raven. But Raven is unable to work with us anymore. Automatic t-shirt. If you like Mariah, you'll love Raven. Go on. I bet I would. Okay.

Awesome. Steampunk costumer Raven is burned out. She can't do it anymore. She ran out of pipe fittings and monocles or what? She prefers to focus on her retail business than supporting low rent Shakespeare as generously as she did. And we totally understand that. And we moved on to Henry IV where we brought in a couple of our collaborators to costume that show. But it was very difficult on those ladies. They were quite burned out at

the end. A lot of what they had to put together was a great struggle, the kind of thing that was only ready right as we were opening. There were tears cried into half-cut bolts of fabric. I believe that was a direct quote. Well, in fact, let me quote from an affidavit submitted by Bridget, your costume designer, on 2018's Henry IV, which was an old-timey garb, and I'll read this directly to you, Francisco. Do you enjoy making costumers weep hysterical, hopeless tears into half-cut bolts

of upholstery fabric at 2 a.m.? No, you don't? Then think about a nice contemporary-themed show with stage blacks and some spiffy props and makeup. Willie Shakes would understand he was a broke actor, too. Do you enjoy making costumers weep? I do not, actually. I don't enjoy that. However, the person you are referring to right now, as far as the affidavit goes, we had a selection of classical theater aspects that we had to our disposal. It was these garments from the Crusades that I would have been just fine utilizing. But that individual— I don't want to relitigate issues that you had with your costumers,

but now reading Marie's affidavit, the theme is the same, that there was miscommunication, high expectations that were difficult to meet in the time presented, and a desire to do more contemporary projects. Are Marie or Bridget working with you in going forward, Jason? Yes, Marie is appearing in actually a couple of our July productions. So she is still collaborating with us. And I believe Francisco even has her thinking about Henry IV Part II. Is that correct, Francisco? That is correct, yeah.

But we didn't see too much of her for a little while there. All right. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I'm going to go to my haunted island and live in dreams for a period of time. And I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jason and Francisco at first seemed like there was going to be little to no argument about this case.

And now it looks like the future of your Shakespeare company may be hanging in the balance. First, Francisco, do you admit to there being costume burnout with Marie and Bridget? Again, given the artistic choices that they made, again, I was willing to go in one direction and they went the other. And if that's the direction they wanted to go, I wasn't going to stop them, especially since the costumes turned out beautiful. Jason, you keep referring to the garb as generic old-timey Shakespeare, which seems a little pejorative, and you are railing against false nostalgia, and yet you are the executive director of a company that does plays that are like 400-plus years old.

Any irony there? Just a touch, but the public domain is a wonderful thing. All right. Well, we'll be back in just a moment with the judge's decision on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, One you have no choice but to embrace because yes,

listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-o-d-c-a-s-t-i hmm are you trying to put the name of the podcast there yeah i'm trying to spell it but it's tricky let me give it a try okay if you need a laugh and you're on the go call s-t-o-p-p-p-a-d-i it'll never fit no it will let me try if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-p-d-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ugh, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom i'm sure there is a shakespeare play that is about or contains within it two rivals that would perfectly mirror francisco and jason i just don't know enough about shakespeare but i do know how collaboration works and how difficult it is just don't know enough about Shakespeare. But I do know how collaboration

works and how difficult it is. And I do know enough about Shakespeare to say, even Shakespeare knew how difficult it was. Because as we all know, Shakespeare was actually 35 different men and women writing at different times. Not one person. How do you make the work of several people fit a singular vision, just like the 35 people who are Shakespeare made it seem to be? And that's a very challenging thing to do that you guys are facing because you have different roles. And in different ways, you're both stepping out of your lanes and on top of each other. Jason, you are the executive director. You are the person who can speak in complete sentences that are clear. You are the funder of the project and the person who has a vision for where the company should go.

And yet you are in conflict with your artistic director because you have a different artistic vision than he does. And Francisco, you are the artistic director. You know, actually, you're not stepping out of your lane. You just have your artistic vision that things should be an old timey garb and you make an artistic case for it. But in reading the affidavits from Marie and Bridget, your timing and demands that they both felt differently were too difficult to meet in your pursuit of classical garb. They felt that their resources, both personal and in terms of what was available to them, were tasked by your requests. And you are not as receptive to contemporary interpretations of Shakespeare, which, you know, you make the case, it's like, that's what people are kind of getting more used

to now. Old time is kind of the rarer thing to see. And maybe that's why you are so dedicated to it. The challenge here is that you are friends. I mean, I think that we get a hint of the war that you may go to if this does not get resolved somehow. In Jason saying, if you guys were merely professional colleagues, the difference of opinion would be such that the artistic director, that is to say you, Francisco, would have quit or been fired by now. You want this to continue, obviously, but you face challenges both in terms of working together as friends and in terms of managing the company, which I'll be honest with you, Francisco, and I'm glad that Jason brought this evidence to my attention, that you should read these affidavits and take them seriously. The concerns that Marie and Bridget have about

leadership in the artistic director's position, whether or not they're justified, and I know you tried to relitigate a little of it, it's something you need to listen to in terms of making sure that you are communicating clearly what time period you want and giving them that direction in time enough to comply and making sure that they have the materials available to them and not having people cry at 2 a.m. I don't want to underestimate the worth of what you are doing, but no Shakespeare production that is done among friends for more or less fun should be provoking tears. It should be provoking fun. How do I rule to preserve the

fairest and most just possible balance between the executive and the artistic director? The demands that have been made upon this court are unfair. That I should instruct Francisco to not consider classical garb as a default position, which is Jason's request. And it was your request at the beginning of this. I heard it, Jason. Or to instruct Jason to only think of classical garb as a default position unless it becomes financially unfeasible. Neither of those is possible for me to enforce or for that matter, order because people like what they like. Francisco is always going to think of puffy shirts and Jason's always going to think of how do we take this to Atlantis. Personally speaking, I think that Jason's point of view that each play should be interrogated for its thematic

content and explored through its costuming and setting is the more aesthetically interesting point of view. But I am also moved by Francisco's point that if you're in a soccer field, you might want to see some chain mail. Because after all, we're still in the midst of the World Cup. Soccer is the world's metaphor for war. I think that the fair thing to do is to alternate, that every third main stage production should be non-classically garbed. I think each play should be discussed and interpreted and collaboratively a decision should be made as to what the garbing and the setting should be,

knowing that Francisco is always going to want to pull it back to 1970s Galactica and Jason's always going to want to pull it forward to 2004 Galactica. But there should be a default understanding as a matter of principle that one out company and also to force both of you to be able to do the thing that's hardest in collaboration, which is to know that your idea is best, but it's the other person's turn this time. It's something that you have to do in collaboration all the time, you know, so that every third time, even though Francisco, you know that this needs to be done, you know, in gladiator garb, this time it's Jason's turn. And two times, because he is the artistic director, two times out of three, even if you know that it should be set on the moon, this time it's set actually in Rome or whatever. That's the hard part of collaboration is knowing when it's the other person's turn. And sometimes it really does

require structural built in, you got to take your hands off at this time because it's my turn, kind of rules. And I'm going to rule that right now. One third out of every three main stage productions will be non-classically garbed default. The other two, you can talk about it, you can make a case, Jason, but the default is they will be classically garbed. But Francisco, I am also ordering you to read the affidavits from Marie and Bridget very carefully, and also non-defensively. They illuminate several problems that happened in these productions that caused tears. And as I say, tears are not necessary in this situation. It will be hard, and this is the challenge of being an artistic director and being a boss. It'll be hard to hear these complaints and not say yes, but. But I want you to just say, I hear you and try to think of

ways in the future, particularly when you do these classically garbed things, you can give them the time period and the direction and especially the time frame for them to do their jobs correctly i wish i had a very pithy shakespeare quote to give but instead i'm going to leave the final world to joel mann joel i love shakespeare this is the sound of a gavel judge john hodgman rules, that is all. A glooming peace this podcast with it brings. For thee rise as Judge John Hodgman exits, pursued by a bear.

Go hence to have more talk of these sad things. Both were pardoned and both punished. For never was a story of more woe than this of Jason and Francisco. What do you think, gentlemen? A fair compromise? It's a clear, fair compromise. I'm satisfied. As am I.

Well done to both of you. One further order from the court. Totally, you've got to do all's well that ends well in Atlantis. Yes. That's got to be on your docket. I don't care when you get it done. You got to do it. Got it.

But really do it underwater. I mean, that would be incredible. Oh yeah, totally. Without a doubt. Do it in the lake. Jason Francisco.

Thank you for joining us on the judge. John Hodgman podcast. Before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank Chris Ubbin for naming this week's episode Much Ado About Clothing. If you'd like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we regularly put out a call for submissions. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets. Hashtag JJ Ho. And check out the Maximum Fun subreddit to discuss this episode. Evidence and photos from the show can be found on the Judge John Hodgman page

on the Maximum Fun website and on our Instagram account, which can be found at Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman. This week's episode was recorded at Wisconsin Public Radio in Madison and by Joel Mann at WERU Radio in Orland, Maine. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Now, let's get to the swift justice where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment. Alexa says, hey Alexa, oh no, that's a different Alexa. My husband found an unclaimed electric toothbrush in the lost and found at work.

He wants to replace the head, clean it, and use it. I know it isn't logical to be grossed out by this, but I'm grossed out. Who is right? Judge John Hodgman. First of all, apologies to our listeners. I'm sure every one of you who has an Amazon Echo has just ordered an electric toothbrush right then. I hope you enjoy it. And I'm glad you're getting a brand new one, because guess what's dumb? Using an old one. Toothbrushes should not be handed down. They are not heirlooms. Even an electric toothbrush, which does have a replaceable head, I can appreciate why a thrifty person might want to order a bunch of extra heads and take advantage of that motor again. I would say that the small amount of thrift, unless you are at great need, the small amount of thrift that you enjoy by taking a toothbrush out of the garbage

and replacing the head does not merit the trash-picking reputation that you will gain. This is similar to one of our oldest and most foundational precedents from the Canadian House of Pizza and Garbage. Yeah, you can maybe get some free pizza and maybe win a motorcycle off of a prize coupon on the back of a pizza tray out of the garbage at Pizza Pizza in Toronto, but it's not worth it to be going through the garbage in front of your girlfriend. If you are completely alone, by all means, Alexa's husband, go in the garbage, just like I told that Canadian dude. If you're by yourself, go in the garbage. But if your wife knows you're going through the garbage and pulling out old toothbrushes, that's not a reputation you

want to live with. It's not worth it. So no. Get out of the garbage, dude. He forgot the age-old adage of just bring that toothbrush home and start using it. Never bring this up as even a question. If you have any doubt about it, you will lose. Yeah, exactly. Don't let anyone know that you're taking old toothbrushes out of the garbage. That's for you to know and enjoy.

It's like that time you adjudicated on the guy who ate the leftover Chinese food at Tahiti in Dedham, Massachusetts. Well, I admired his gumption. It's probably not good to do in front of anyone else. Yes, there are many, many precedents of Judge Sean Hodgman listeners trying to justify eating garbage. And I appreciate that there are people in the world who need to, out of thrift, take in things that other people have disposed of. But as I say, only at great need should you be taking toothbrushes and food and coupons out of the garbage. And if you do not have that great need, do not do it. That's it for this week's episode.

do it. That's it for this week's episode. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho or email Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. No case is too big or too small. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. MaximumFun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Listener supported.