Judge John Hodgman - Mulch and Bison

Episode Date: April 20, 2022

It's time to clear the docket! As we venture out into the world a bit more, how should we be dressing? What makes a men's sandal a "dad sandal?" If one puts sunglasses on the brim of their hat, are they still "wearing" them? Does black go with everything? Should a college graduate's partner wear a tie to the graduation? Judge John Hodgman and Bailiff Jesse Thorn talk all about these fashion and style cases, and more!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. We're in chambers this week clearing the docket. And with me is a man currently dressed as a plainclothes policeman, Judge John Hodgman. No one will know because I've changed my last name Hodgman to Hodge and I've changed my first name John to Undercover. Call me Mr. Underhill. That's what Frodo Baggins called himself at the Prancing Pony. That's exactly the kind of thing all undercover policemen know. Jesse Thorne, today we're going to be talking about dressing up. Yeah. And I want to tell you something.

I almost dressed up the other day. Really? Well, you know, I used to dress up all the time. That was my deal. I would go on that daily show. You'd wear that orange necktie? Wear an orange necktie. Look great. And then I would go around the country dressing up because I had to look like a smarty pants. You know what I mean? A respectable nerd. But then over the past, I mean, decade i was just like who cares and then the past couple of past couple of years i've said it on this show and i'm not going to deny it i've i've waded very deeply into the elastic waistband pool i'm all the way up to my waist in it honestly you wanted to check but i went out to denver Colorado, flew on an airplane to Denver, Colorado to meet with our friend, Jeff Tweedy, the top Wilco of Wilco.

Your friend. I've never met Jeff Tweedy. Oh, you got to meet Jeff Tweedy, nicest guy in the world. You ever interview him? I've never interviewed him. I know Craig Finn from The Hold Steady. How about that? He's our friend.

Pretty much interchangeable is what you're saying. Wow. I'm just talking about rock and roll guys. All white dad rock and roll guys look the same to you is what you're saying? I don't know. I interviewed Michael Stipe the other day, I think. I think it was Michael Stipe. It was one of those rock and roll guys.

I had interviewed Jeff Tweedy on stage in Denver at the lovely Paramount Theater in downtown Denver, Colorado. And when we did the sound check, I realized, uh-oh, I'm dressing exactly like Jeff Tweedy. Just, you know, work clothes. But I can't wear work clothes, Jesse. Why not? I can't wear like, you know, like relaxed pants and a t-shirt and a denim jacket or whatever Jeff Tweedy was wearing because I'm not a rock and roller. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm the interviewer. I have to be respectable. So I had brought along a suit and I put on the

suit there in my hotel room, room 21, excuse me, not 21, 14, 25, 14, 25th floor of the Grand Hyatt in Denver, Colorado. I looked pretty good in that suit. But then I was like, you know what? I looked pretty good in that suit but then I was like you know what I'm 50 years old who cares no one in Colorado is going to care no one in Colorado is going to care no one in the Paramount Theater they're not even going to be looking at me they're going to be looking at Jeff Tweedy

so I put on some nice pants and a gray corduroy button up shirt soft corduroy that I got made to order made to measure for me and I walked made to order, made to measure for me. And I walked down to the lobby and Jeff's assistant who was helping us out that day, who was going to walk us over to the Paramount, says to me, you look good. That's all I needed. All I needed was that gray corduroy shirt. Jesse, let me tell you before we start though,

because we're going to, people are trying to figure out how to dress these days because we're, you know, we're in this stage of the pandemic where we might go outside sometimes. We might actually fly in an airplane as I did. And you know, we got other people are going to see us. What are we going to wear? We're going to talk about it today. But can I just tell you, Jesse, I don't know when the last time you've been to Colorado or Denver was, the Mile High City. I'll tell you the best and worst places to eat in Denver. Jennifer Marm, you ever been to Denver, Colorado? Yeah, I have.

It's a lovely city. It's a lovely city. It's a mile up. Start with the worst place to eat. Worst place to eat isn't even technically in Denver. It's at the Delta Sky Club at LaGuardia Airport in New York. First time I've been in the Sky Club. You know I love me some sky broth.

Anyone who read Medallion Status knows I love the food at the Sky Club. But coming in the most recent phase of a now 24 to 36 month pandemic situation, don't put a nacho bar out. Don't put an open air nacho bar out in the Sky Club. I don't care if you're putting that guacamole in a fake molcajete. No. I'm not going to eat all that stuff. Salad bars have to be over now, right? You would think, but they're not. They're

not, apparently. Salad bars are wide open. Best place to eat in Denver though. You ready for this? This is my high recommendation. Mile high. My mile high recommendation. Room 2514 at the Grand Hyatt in Denver. Really? Yeah. 10, 15 PM having just finished interview Jeff Tweedy in my bed watching Turner Classic movies. I recommend the takeout tacos that, Jesse, this is going to make you mad, but I got tacos from a chain, an Austin chain called Torchy's Tacos

that they have there in Denver. Jennifer Marmer gives me two thumbs up for those. I love Torchy's. They were pretty, look, I'm not, Jesse, I know how you feel about tacos. I know how you feel about burritos. And in no way am I saying that room 2514 at the Grand Hyatt in Denver, Colorado is anywhere near the Mission District of San Francisco for burritos or all of Los Angeles for tacos. But at 1015 at night in my bed watching Peter Cushing as Doctor Who in Invasion of the Daleks or Daleks Invade the Earth 2150

or I can't even remember what it was because it's one of these off-brand Doctor Whos that they made outside of continuity in the 60s. Peter Cushing made two movies as Doctor Who. Doesn't even fit into the time frame of the rest of the Doctor Who series. Best meal. One of the best.

Almost as good as having a chicken Caesar salad and watching Captain America, the first Avenger at the Park Hyatt Hotel in Chicago, which had up to this time been the best meal i'd ever had shall we get into the docket you know what they say there's no greater sauce than loneliness it's yeah i don't know i had a good time solitude let's say solitude don't know. I had a good time. Solitude. Let's say solitude. Don't you enjoy eating in a hotel room, Jesse Thorne? I basically never eat in a hotel room. How come?

I'm eating outside the, I'm eating out in the world. You want to go out in the world? Yeah. Because you want to, you want to, you want to, excuse me, vegetarians, you want to suck the marrow from the bones of that city that you're visiting. Yeah, I want to get out there and- You're going to be a Robert Sietsama kind of guy, just get into the deepest corners of the food culture of Dayton or whatever. I was convinced by my other co-host, Jordan Morris, my co-host on Jordan Jesse Go.

And my co-host on Shooting the Breeze, a biannual cheese podcast that I co-host with him. That's true. I was convinced by Jordan, who for a long time had a peripatetic lifestyle as a correspondent for Fuel TV. Sure. Spent a lot of time on the road of the value of something called the solo fence, which is where you grab a book from out of your carry-on bag. Sure. And you go to the fanciest restaurant within walking distance of where you are and order yourself something fancy and sit there and eat it by yourself while you read a book. And I was terrified to do that before Jordan convinced me of it. And now it's a staple of my travel experience to go and try and find a $30 entree that I can eat by myself while I read a book.

That sounds wonderful too, I have to say. And that is a different kind of solitude. It's true. Now, just imagine that the solo fans in the solo fan situation, like think of the best, what was the best solo fans that you've ever done? I had a nice solo fans in Bakersfield, California. I don't remember what the name of the restaurant was, but I just looked up. You know, it wasn't a distinctive restaurant. It was a subway tile and exposed filament bulb American restaurant, you know? There's a little Brooklyn everywhere.

And I went there and I ordered something fancy. It was a lunch. I ate it while I read my book And it was great Okay, now just imagine that instead of that fake Brooklyn restaurant in Bakersfield It's a king-sized bed on the 25th floor of a hotel in Denver Fair enough And instead of a book, it's multiple episodes of House Hunters on HGTV Okay, now we can really get into the docket

Here's a case from Jacob. I request an injunction against my wife, Jessica, and our friends, Kristen and Susan. Whenever I buy sandals, they all make comments about how I'm buying dad sandals. They say all men's sandals are dad sandals by default. But if that's true, the term dad sandals is redundant. Please rule in my favor. Tell them they should refer to my dad sandals simply as sandals. Jesse, you are an expert in the type of clothing that tends to be gendered menswear and you run a blog on the subject and obviously you run the put this on shop which uh which pedals that's a little bit that's a little bit diminishing isn't it pedals i don't know i kind of like the idea it makes me think of caps for sale definitely it definitely look jesse thorn you are oh you're shaking your i'm shaking my fist

at the monkeys you're shaking your fist monkeys you shaking my fist at the monkeys. You're shaking your fist at the monkeys. You better give me back my caps. I don't need to explain caps for sale. Do I? Everyone knows caps for sale, right? Everybody worth knowing knows it. And if there's anyone that I could imagine wearing a cool cloth cap more than you, Jesse Thorne, nevermind 15 to 20 atop your head, it's you. There's you.

You're the one, you're the expert. So I'm going to ask you your opinion on the style of these questions since they're all about what to wear. And then we'll discuss and I'll weigh in on the principle behind the dispute. But with regard to the style here, I ask you, Jesse Thorne, are all sandals for dudes dad sandals for me connotes a very particular type of sandals. It's the type of sandals that my own very beloved father-in-law favors and in his lifetime was favored by my father, Lee. And I would describe those sandals in the year 20 whatever it is as adventure sandals. The kind of sandals that are – and I'm not talking necessarily about full-on, you know, Teva-style sports sandals. Oh, I thought that's what you were referring to. That seems that's adventure sandals to me. That's sort of the second tier of what I'm talking about. But the first tier is the sandal equivalent of the kind of sneaker style hiking shoes. Right.

That dads love to wear for their practicality and homeliness. Right. In a non-fashion way. And they are beloved because you can do just about anything with them and you can wear them with just about anything. Jesse, I believe you're talking about the men's Targhee 3 sandal from Keen's Footwear. I was going to use the brand name Keen, but I didn't want to buzz market them. Which is the second image that comes up when I Google dad sandals. The first is a Teva, but I agree with you. Teva, I think, skews traditionally younger. to really really disparage one of the uh teenagers that he knew who he believed to be not cool because steve was very cool and he ran with the like the the dirt bike skater crowd right and he wanted to talk about the the kids who would go to the the caribbean over the summer or

whatever he would refer to these kids as and you have to understand he was using a stronger word, Teva wearing dipsticks. No offense to Teva or Keen, but Keen, the Keen Targ Heel 3, made for dad, loved for dads. It is exactly as you described. It's a hiking sneaker with cutouts, basically. Yeah. Merrell is another brand that makes similar style shoes and

if you're wondering jesse the targ heath 3 comes in two different color styles you can get it in gray slash black or my favorite bison slash mulch i don't think it's in in the indefinable sense of dadness, I don't think it gets dadder than a Keens Targi 3 dad sandal in bison slash mulch. Fit predictor, calculate your size. Yes, me. The size is me. I could wear those. I'm a dad. What's interesting about this is that there is no indication that Jacob and his wife, Jessica, have children.

that there is no indication that Jacob and his wife, Jessica, have children. They're just wandering around in whatever footwears they're wearing with their friends, Kristen and Susan, and they're all ganging up on Jacob saying any sandals are dad sandals. What are some sandals that are definitely not dad sandals, Jesse? Well, I mean, I think there are a variety of leather sandals, whether they're Mediterranean or Caribbean or Latin American styles that I wouldn't generally consider dad sandals. Although if your dad is from one of those places, you might consider them dad sandals. But dad indicates a sense of style lessness or almost a contempt for style i would argue that those shoes are substantially designed for people uh who think that style is a sign of weakness uh and practicality is the is the only virtue andicality is the dad of the world. And they are practical.

I mean, from what I understand, they're very comfortable. They are very flexible, both physically and, you know, functionally. You really can step in a river and then hang them up to dry or whatever. Yeah. They do what they're supposed to do.

In Mediterranean countries and in Mexico and Central America, hang them up to dry or whatever. They do what they're supposed to do. In Mediterranean countries and in Mexico and Central America, South America, warmer climes, men wear very fashionable sandals. Yeah. I mean, people in the Caribbean might wear like chancletas. People in Mexico might be wearing huaraches. And all of those sandals can be really good looking. Sort of a Mediterranean fisherman's sandal is very good looking, sort of the kind of shoe that you would imagine Jesus wearing in a painting. All of those can be very good looking. I mean, people have strong feelings about whether men's toes should be visible. Strong feelings about whether men's toes should be visible. Really strong feelings about it. I'm really in the middle on that. I mean, I think there's established there's definitely a non-dad sandal. The non-dad sandal is a sandal that is not contemptuous of

style. But would it be fair to say that if it has a buckle, it's a non-dad sandal, and if it has Velcro, it's a dad sandal? That's an interesting question. I mean, there is an aesthetic that has been ascendant in the last few years that has to do with looking like a Teva dipstick. That you will see, you know, you will see like 21-year-olds on the street in Manhattan who are like urban hipsters who are wearing certain kinds of Velcro sandals. They're not going full, they're not going full, uh, full dad, uh, but certainly you could, you could see them wearing a Tevas or the, the high, there's a Japanese, uh, analog to Tevas called Suikoke, uh, that you, you might find at a fancy boutique these days. So I'm hesitant to say Velcro is the absolute, but maybe a combination of Velcro and suede. But earlier you said something that really shocked me.

It was like, if you're wearing socks with sandals, but not as a fashion statement, is socks with sandals now a thing that these young people do? Yeah. I mean, I think socks with sandals goes along substantially with the revival of Birkenstocks the last five years or so. Yeah. I'll wear a nice pair of socks with sandals from time to time. It's not anathema to me.

Yeah. I think that Jessica and Kristen and Susan all know that there are sandals and then there are dad sandals. There is a distinction between them. I don't know the types of sandals that Jacob is picking for himself. They could be dad sandals. That is to say they could be contemptuous of style or they could simply be sandals.

And Kristen and Susan and Jessica don't know what Jesse Thorne knows, which is that the cool kids are dressing dad core all the time now. And it's very stylish. Those sandals could, Jacob, your sandals could be gross or they could be sweet. Those are the two possibilities. Either you've got gross sandals or sweet sandals. But I agree with you that Jessica and Kristen and Susan are acting in bad faith. Their accusation of dad sandals or sweet sandals. But I agree with you that Jessica and Kristen and Susan are acting in bad faith. Their accusation of dad sandals is not designed to be descriptive, but humiliative. And frankly, unearned, because as far as I know, there are no kids. There is no dadding going on here.

And frankly, as a dad, I take offense of these young people launching dad at this poor dude as though that is necessarily a pejorative. If you are going to be accused of being a dad, you ought to be a dad. Don't rush Jacob along and don't pick on him. He likes sandals. You kids these days calling guys dads when they're not dads. I don't understand any of it. I'm the dad. I'm the one who doesn't understand things. Lay off, Kristen, Jessica, and Susan. Let Jacob wear his sandals. And Jacob, send me a photo of the sandals.

I want to see. I want to show them to Jesse. We can give the final read on this. Well, that's settled. We're now America's number one gorp core podcast. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John HodP core podcast. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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Rules and restrictions apply. Welcome back to Judge John Hodgman. We're settling some fashion disputes this week in the docket. Here's something from Zach. A few weeks ago, a group of us met up for happy hour at a spot downtown with a patio. Because we were sitting outside, I wore my sunglasses. As the night went on, I no longer had any need for them, so I put them on top of my hat. Later, when we moved inside, my girlfriend Hannah asked if she could put on my sunglasses. I responded, don't wear sunglasses inside. It's

a bad look. She argued that I was already wearing them by having them on my hat. Can we really call that wearing, though? Do we wear a hoodie that's slung over our shoulder or wrapped around our waist? Where do we draw the where line? Please order Hannah to stop saying I am wearing sunglasses unless I am actively wearing them over my eyeballs. And we do have some evidence here, Jesse, a photo of the sunglasses propped up on the hat. Do you see this photo?

I do. These are Viper Pit brand sunglasses. I would characterize these sunglasses as the sort you would wear to do motocross. I would characterize them as the sort of sunglasses you would wear if you were a 1983 superhero. Yes, that's very fair. Or if you were a baseball player in 1990. Yeah, maybe that's more the time. If you were DC Comics and you were trying to introduce some new

cool young superheroes to the Justice League and you thought up of Vibe. Do you know the character Vibe, Jesse? I don't know the character Vibe, but I'm getting Vibe's Vibe. Vibe can create vibrations. Now a very vibrant character on the CW's The Flash.

But at the time he was introduced, he was wearing sunglasses like these. Vibe was wearing these sunglasses like, I'm not your daddy's superhero with his dad sandals on. I'm wearing my cool Viper Pit sunglasses. I borrowed these sunglasses from Jose Canseco. I borrowed these sunglasses from a spaceman who came down from space. You can check them out, obviously, on the show page at MaximumFun.org or also at Instagram at Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman. And they're propped up over the brim of a hat that says Portland. Boy, oh boy.

I don't know which Portland this is, but I'm hoping it's not my Portland. You know what I mean? I'm hoping this is Portland, Oregon, not my Portland, because this is a look. This is a look. Space sunglasses on the brim of a baseball hat. That's a look, isn't it, Jesse? That's a saying. That's a look, isn't it? That's saying something, right? Yeah. I mean, it's giving me vibes. What is the vibes it's giving to you? It's giving me 1992 jock. Yeah. I don't know where they were going out to eat, and I guess it doesn't matter whatever you wear, but...

And I'm going to say, I want to be clear, the sunglasses especially I think are fun. I think they're fun sunglasses. I don't want to sound like I'm against them because I'm saying that they're giving me 1992 jock. You know what? Zach is fun. I like Zach. I like his sunglasses. Zach is fun for all I know.

Putting your sunglasses on your hat brim this way. I'm a, I'm a dad. You guys, I'm your daddy. Like to me, this indicates like 1990s jock, but to Zach, who is from Portland, Oregon, which I admit is the coolest Portland, even I, a lover of Portland, Maine, which is pretty cool.

Yeah, Portland, Maine is pretty cool. Yeah, Zach, you might be rocking some kind of 90s jockcore revival that I don't even know about. You probably are the coolest looking guy in the world. But I would say that this is as much of a look as wearing sunglasses inside. Jesse, should you ever wear sunglasses inside? You know, I have worn sunglasses inside. I have some sunglasses that are very lightly tinted and I have worn them in situations where I'm going to be inside a long time in like bad artificial light because I find it wearying and sometimes can lead to migraines. But you know, I did this once at a public radio conference and a rival public radio

host. I won't say this person's name, but I'll say that they hosted a show in Portland, Oregon, and it wasn't my friend, Luke Burbank. This person went on a podcast and talked mess about me for wearing sunglasses inside. Oh no. And I couldn't decide whether to send her an email and explain that I have a disability. Yeah. I mean, I don't even know that you need a disability if you're, you know, it's a strong statement is the thing to wear sunglasses inside. It's a lot. I would say that arguably wearing a Portland baseball hat with your sunglasses on top of the brim even if you are rocking the coolly the stylingest style of the

style times depending on the restaurant you are in that could also be a lot you know typically i have encouraged people over the past to not wear hats inside of restaurants because it to me it just feels like you don't trust the restaurant to keep the rain off your head. It feels ungracious in a way. But obviously, if it's a cool Portland bar, if I were to go into a bar in cool Portland,

I probably would still wear my Ottawa Nationals hat or something like that. I might even put my sunglasses on top of the brim just to keep them handy but i'll tell you one thing i would never do and this is no disrespect to guy fieri who i'm i'm getting i'm getting chatter uh from various sources that he's a nice guy but at least i'm not wearing the sunglasses on the back of my head what's he hiding back there demon eyes on the back of his head yeah that's a real. Okay. I'm going to be descriptive and not prescriptive.

Zach, these are cool sunglasses. Zach, this hat is cool. It's okay that you wore your sunglasses on the patio for sure. You don't want to have the sunshine in your eyes. It's good that you took your sunglasses off inside. It's fine that you put them up on your hat. I'm going to guess that you know your way around cool places in Portland better than I do. And this is probably okay. I think it's reasonable not to let your girlfriend Hannah steal your sunglasses. But I think that that's disingenuous to say that it's a bad look to wear sunglasses inside because we've already established you can do whatever you want. I think you just don't want Hannah to steal your sunglasses and steal your cool Viper Pit Thunder. And you should just be honest with her. It's like, I don't want to,

I don't want you to take my cool flashy sunglasses. They're mine. This is my look. Get your own look. Become your own superhero, Hannah. I'm Jose Canseco. You be Mark McGuire. Yeah, exactly. Bash. Yeah. If your sunglasses are on your hat, are you wearing them? Oh, right. That's the question. Yes, you you are wearing them that's too much of a look that's not like putting them into your backpack or you know or leaving them on the table if you've put them on i would say that if you put them on that hat that's a fashion statement like if you're a chad and you've got a cotton sweater draped over your shoulders yeah or if you're john Kerry, kind of the same. Well, John Kerry is an OG Chad.

The original Chad. Yeah. Wear whatever you want inside. But yeah, if you're wearing the sunglasses on your hat, you're definitely wearing sunglasses. Don't let anyone tell you different, Zach. Here's something from Jacob. Does black go with everything?

My partner Shannon says black clothing goes with every other color of clothing. I think black clothes only go with white or other black clothes. A little background. She works in the fashion industry and has a great sense of style. I have my own sense of style, but I'm more punk rock than put together. So she would know what black goes with. Even so, I'm convinced I'm right. Sorry to offer a Muppet laugh.

Even so, I'm convinced I'm right. What was the first sentence of that paragraph? She works in the fashion industry and has a great sense of style. Last sentence of the paragraph. Even so, I'm convinced I'm right. Okay, Jacob. Is this the Jacob who was being made fun of for his dad's sandals earlier? Do you think he got divorced in between these two cases? And now he's going out with Shannon? Basically, we've established that you can do whatever you want. You can interview Jeff Tweedy on stage wearing a nice shirt and some pants. You can wear sunglasses on top of your Portland hat in Portland, Oregon, or maybe you're being double ironic and you're wearing sunglasses on top of

your Portland hat in Seattle, Washington, inside a place of business. You can do whatever you want. But Jesse, here's my question for you. This is the one that I'm really hung up on because I know that there was once a rule about this and I don't know if the rule exists anymore. Can black and navy blue go together? They can. I mean, you certainly can wear black accessories with navy blue clothes. I think that if you're talking about like, for example, wearing black pants with a navy blue peacoat, classic navy blue item, right? Sure. From the Navy. I think that often that look can get a little muddled. It's not so much that it clashes as that the relationship between, there's not enough contrast for those to feel distinct. And so it's sort of like confuses the eye.

Right. Okay. What about not navy blue? What about a blue suit, a dark blue suit and black shoes? Is that okay? Yes, that's absolutely fine. That's okay. All right.

Good to know. What about blue pants and a black hoodie like the one I'm wearing right now is undercover Hodge? I think that that is generally fine. So the thing about wearing black for men is that the rules, so to speak, which is to say, you know, the rules are kind of a collection of cultural baggage and some kind of aesthetic brain things. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. I think the rules are pretty different for black with men and women. Oh, okay. I think black can be pretty tough to wear for men, especially if you are not wearing a, you know a monochromatic look.

So certainly men can wear all black or a combination of black, gray, and white pretty easily. If it's a suit, you might look like you're going to a funeral or driving a black car. Or you might be the DC Comics supervillain Solomon Grundy. Yeah. But if you're going for a rock and roll aesthetic or an art opening aesthetic, certainly all black or a combination of black, gray, and white is going to be great.

And you could certainly use color as an accent in those things, especially if there's a lot of contrast. But I think that often men think that they could wear black pants with any kind of coat or black shirts with any kind of outfit. And often those looks are very hard to pull off. Whereas I think for women, there are a lot more black basics that are, you know, often the entire body and are being accented with accessories, you know, like classic little black dress type stuff. That's a lot easier, a much easier look for women to pull off. Jennifer Marmer. Yeah.

What do you think? Does black go with everything? Yeah, I think so. I'm wearing black denim pants right now. Right. With brown shoes. Right. Which probably many people might not like,

but I'm wearing like a rust slash burgundy blazer. I think the whole outfit looks great on the Zoom and I bet it looks even better in real life. Jennifer looks fantastic. Jennifer is a very stylish dresser. I try. I try. And black denim pants for me are a basic that I wear most days. I have a couple black jeans that I cycle through and then I have blue jeans that I like, but don't love. So for me, the black is a basic that I don't wear all black often, but. Yeah. Jennifer also has what they call a high contrast look, which is to say she has very dark hair and very light skin. And people who have that kind of complexion or combination of complexion and hair often look good in high contrast clothing like black and white.

I haven't thought about that. I do hear what you're saying, though, Jesse, about the rules and cultural baggage, because I think for men, there is a certain cultural baggage that goes along with wearing black. So like if you're wearing black slacks, first of all, not fun to say. Second of all, that usually indicates a waiter or a maitre d' or a valet.

Or a person who's required to wear slacks but doesn't like to. Like John Hodgman? Somebody that is selling you cell phone service in a mall. Right, exactly. Or someone who is working as a part-time usher at the Hammersmith Odeon concert venue in London in about 1991 where the dress code was black slacks and a red t-shirt with the odian logo on it and also dress shoes not a particularly good look and i had to put a deposit down on the t-shirt i was not allowed a 10 pound sterling deposit

and when i left the job i'm like you know what you can keep the deposit i'm gonna keep this t-shirt as a memento of probably the worst I've ever looked. And I started getting letters saying, please return our property. We will refer this to our solicitors. They were chasing that 10 pounds so hard, the Hammersmith Odeon. But you know what I learned, Jacob? This isn't punk rock. This is just straight up hard rock and roll.

I saw Lemmy Kilmeister play with Motorhead at the Hammersmith Odeon. I worked that show. That dude wore a lot of black. And you know what he didn't care about? What it went with. You're not going to get more punk rock, even though he's not a punk rocker, than Lemmy Kilmeister of Motorhead. If you're so punk rock, what Lemmy Kilmeister of Motorhead.

If you're so punk rock, what do you care, Jacob? Black goes with everything. Forget about it. Get rid of your cultural baggage. If you wear a black shirt under a suit coat or whatever, though, you're going to look like TV's version of a gangster in 1999. That's just the way it goes. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, a case of fashion delayed, fashion denied. Hello, teachers and faculty.

This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-R. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will.

Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. We are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Judge Hodgman, we're taking a break from the docket. You've got some stuff going on, including stuff that people in certain regions will be able to enjoy

and stuff that people in all regions will be able to enjoy. In all regions. Hey, everybody in every region in the world. My name is John Hodgman, and I've got some stuff going on. Wow. Some stuff going on. It's a funny feeling, Jesse Thornton, I've got to tell you. I don't mind it.

First stuff going on. Hey, it's MaxFun Trivia. Yeah, I told you about it before. Now I'm telling you about it for real. April 30th, that's a Saturday, at 5 p.m. Eastern, your friend and mine, Chuck Bryant of Stuff You Should Know, will once again be hosting a pub quiz. It is a virtual pub quiz that will be held on a virtual platform so anyone from any region can join. It's $25 to play. It's $6 to watch, and all of the

proceeds go to CASA slash GAL. That's Court Appointed Special Advocate and Guardian Ad Litem Volunteers. They advocate on behalf of children who have experienced abuse or neglect. This is a great organization. We're going to raise a lot of money for them and we're going to have a lot of fun. So please join us for Max pub trivia with chuck bryant and john hodgman april 30th saturday at 5 p.m eastern you can go to and i did not make this one up jesse this is this this came to me bit.ly slash mfd trivia 22 that's capital m capital f capital d capital t rivia 22 or just Google Max Fun Pub Quiz with Chuck and John won't you?

And join us on April 30th. It's going to be a good time for a great cause. Yeah, 100% of those proceeds 100% of those

you know, look we can't have an infinite number of people participate in this. That's why there's a ticket price and 100%

of that ticket price is going to go to Casas GAL and in addition to that that's a ticket price, and 100% of that ticket price is going to go to CASAS GAL. And in addition to that, that's a $6 suggested donation to watch. Of course, you can play along at home. We're not going to stop you from playing along at home. We can't stop you from playing along at home. And we're not going to stop you from watching if you make a different donation.

Yeah. We're trying to support a great charity. $2 billion, whatever the suggested donation. Yeah. You know what? I'm going to suggest it. $2 billion great charity. $2 billion, whatever the suggested donation. Just six bucks to watch. I'm going to suggest it. $2 billion. I suggest $2 billion. I'm not going to judge you if you don't do $2 billion.

But if you do, thank you for going along with my suggestion. And then people in specific geographical regions, please listen. On May 9th, I will be in Portland, Maine at the State Theater joining the great podcast Love It or Leave It. John Lovett from Pod Save America has a very funny podcast called Love It or Leave It. And I'm going to be on stage with him and his other very special guests on May 9th at the State Theater. Just simply Google Love It or Leave It and Hodgman. You'll probably find that or you'll probably find my rant from December 2019, the last time I was on the show,

talking about how I like The Mandalorian and no one should be mad at me about it. And they all got mad at me anyway. Also, you can join me and many of your dear friends, including Jean Grey, Nagin Farsad, River Butcher, Nick Offerman. Oh my gosh, Nick Offerman, plus new special guest Josh Gondelman and Ayo Adebri at the comedy stage at the Solid Sound Festival. That's Wilco's Solid Sound Festival on Saturday, May 28th. We might even have some more surprises coming up on that stage. The whole festival is bananas good. As good as bananas.

Not as much potassium, but as good as bananas. Plus an incredible lineup, including obviously Wilco, Autumn Defense, Japanese Breakfast, Mike Watt, the Sun Ra Orchestra, and all those comedy people that I talked to you about before. It's a really, really good time out there in North Adams, Massachusetts at Mass MoCA, one of the greatest former electrical parts factories turned into a large scale installation art museum in the world. Top 10 anyway. Top 10 anyway. Solid Sound Festival, use your search engine to find out more information. Jesse, what do you have going on, if you will?

Tell me about it now. Well, I, of course, host the NPR program Bullseye with Jesse Thorne. There is always a great guest on Bullseye. I just had a great conversation with Chloe Sevigny, who is such a great lady. She is so like, you're worried because she's so cool that she's going to be too cool to be a great lady. But actually, she is primarily a great lady. First and foremost, a great lady. lady. First and foremost, a great lady. And the legendary Courtney B. Vance, who just... Wow. Kevin, my producer, just texted me a clip from that interview and said,

can we get Courtney B. Vance to do an ASMR podcast? Yeah. Only if you want all the money. He is an amazing person. If you want to know what it's like to be married to Angela Bassett, we will talk with legendary actor Courtney B. Vance. Or to have your first real professional acting gig be in the production that became the Broadway production of August Wilson's Fences. Yeah. Alongside James Earl Jones. Yeah.

What it's like to get acting advice from James Earl Jones. Courtney B. Vance, one of the great actors. And next week, two of my favorite comedy people, Molly Shannon and Paul Feig. They're both just the best. Bury the lead, as they say in the newspapering biz. Well, here's something, John, that I am very excited

about. May I say I am also excited about it? This is the thrill. I'm going to go ahead and say this is the thrill of a lifetime. Wow. Okay. Yes, I agree. Everything has been building to go ahead and say this is the thrill of a lifetime. Wow. Okay. Yes, I agree. Everything has been building to this. All of this has been prologue to this moment that you were about to discuss.

The birth of my three children. Prologue. My marriage to the beautiful Teresa Thorne. Prologue. The time that I was walking down the street and I was wearing the same 49ers jacket as a guy walking the opposite direction. I said, hey, nice jacket. And he punched me. Prologue. Prologue to this moment. Because chapter one of the story of Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman begins with what? A show at Lincoln Center. Yes, that's right. We are coming to Damrosch Park at Lincoln Center this summer, Wednesday, June 29th at Lincoln Center.

This is going to be incredible. This is such a huge event. I mean, I thought when we started doing live shows again, Jesse Thorne, honestly, I thought that we might be doing like a small show at the Bell House to get limbered up. doing like a small show at the bell house to get limbered up i thought maybe we'd do some uh some busking on the platform of the seventh avenue f train i thought maybe something we'd we'd start small but no we're coming back big yeah bigger than ever let's go lincoln center damrush park at lincoln center this is an outdoor show for outdoor people and indoor types like me. It's going to be a beautiful night of live justice under the stars, which you can't see beyond the light pollution here in Manhattan, New York City.

What a night it's going to be. Wednesday, June 29th. And you can go and find out about how to be there right now by Googling Judge John Hodgman, Lincoln Center. I'm not even making a bitly. This is too big for a bitly, everybody. Judge John Hodgman, Lincoln Center, June 29th. Come one, come all.

Guess what, John? I can't guess. You want to know what people are going to have to pay to get into that? Look, what do you usually have to pay to get into a show at Lincoln Center? $100, $200? You've got to buy a really nice pair of shoes for Wynton Marsalis. Yeah, you can't be going to

see Wynton Marsalis without some cool, shiny shoes. Guess what it costs to see Judge John Hodgman this summer at Lincoln Center in New York City? I don't know. $500 a ticket? Let's knock that down by $500. It's free. Bring your friends. Bring your mom mom bring your auntie bring your cousins this is a free show in the damrosch park amphitheater this is going to be incredible

bring everybody you know i know a nice way you should say to them to spend a summer evening on wednesday june 29th it's free and it's going to be fun. It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast taping. What? You don't know what podcasts are? What? You only listen to that guy from News Radio's podcast? What? The only person you know who does a podcast is Dax Shepard from the movie Without a Paddle?

Doesn't matter. Come to this show. It's free, you'll say to all your friends, we hope. Let's do this. June 29th, free show, Lincoln Center, New York City is gonna be awesome. June 29th, Damarash Park, Lincoln Center. Just Google Judge John Hodgman, Lincoln Center.

You'll get right there and we'll see you under the stars. Let's get back to the show. Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Here's a case from Sebastian who wrote in with a dispute in April 2018. My partner is coming from Texas to Florida for my college graduation this May. They'll be meeting my parents for the first time. This is not only the first person I've ever brought home to my parents, but because I'm the oldest of all my cousins, it's the first romantic partner introduced to my entire family in over 20

years. I managed to get my partner to invest in a button-down shirt, slacks, and dress shoes, but they're arguing with me over whether it's necessary to wear a tie. Please, talk some sense into my partner and say it is obviously necessary. And if you rule in my favor, please award emotional damages in the form of a tasteful vest being added to the required attire. So Jesse, before we discuss the specific situation, what is your opinion on a shirt and a tie and no jacket for a college graduation? And does it make a difference that this is in Florida where a tie is essentially cosplay and pretending that you're in a place with seasons? I think that, well, first of all, a tie is always cosplay. That's true. Good point.

All clothing is cosplay. But I think that a tie without a coat is a look that it is possible to do well, but very difficult to do well. I think generally what will happen if you're wearing a tie and you're not wearing a coat is that it will look like you either lost your coat or were required by some rule to wear a tie and you don't have a coat to wear. Yeah. I mean, I feel like the takeaway from this is a little bit like Sebastian's partner doesn't want to wear a tie because it's too constraining or it's too fancy or whatever. But in fact, I think a nice dress shirt and a nice pair of pants and some nice shoes is usually plenty for a graduation, which is usually an afternoon event anyway. When you're often wearing a gown over everything else, no matter what.

A graduation gown. Yeah. Yeah, right. And I would also say, first of all, Sebastian, I do apologize for taking so long to write back. In 2018, I kind of feel like that may have been the last year you might be able to get away wearing a tie, a shirt, and a vest without. But I think even then you would probably look more like a mixologist than a guest at a wedding or, excuse me, a graduation. It was a look that went along with the growth of the fancy lad in, you know, the late aughts and early teens. And that the growth of that look certainly benefited my popular menswear website, put this on dot com. And I'm grateful for it.

I think that it is a look that is associated with that time. It was not the greatest look even in that time. And maybe is best left to people who are wearing that look for practical reasons, like people who are sitting on hay bales at weddings and plucking banjos and the coat would get in the way, or people who are making, I don't know, what would you say? Shrubs? Mules? Yeah. Mixing up a cocktail of some kind, a shrub or a mule. Yeah.

And again, you know, they're wearing, to the extent that they are wearing tie clips and sleeve garters and not wearing coats, it's because they don't want their clothing to get into the drinks. You don't want to get your tie in your shrub. Exactly. I think that in general, if you're wearing a tie, you should be doing the whole thing or not doing it. And I do think that a dress shirt, a nice pair of pants, a nice pair of shoes is a perfectly acceptable look. Certainly so in Florida, where attire is generally very casual and, you know, people are often not wearing coats simply because it's hot and humid outside. Yeah, it's humidity appropriate. Appropriateness is a fluid concept.

It's situational. And as we have established, you can make anything work pretty much. The rules are cultural baggage. And I can say that you will probably look better if you dress comfortably than if you dress with the anxiety of, am I wearing the right thing? And comfortably is something that is defined inside of you. I would say that, you know, my, there was an instinct that I had where it's like, well, okay, you know, the one person who knows better than anyone else, even me, about what's appropriate for this college graduation is Sebastian. And if the person that you love in your life is saying, please wear a tie,

you should probably wear it. But then I was thinking that this feels a little, well, it feels a little gendered to me in a way, because, you know, I, I was looking at it from the point of view of like, if you have a, a boyfriend, girlfriend, cis couple, and the girlfriend is asking the boyfriend, please wear a tie so you can meet my daddy or whatever, you know, my mom and dad just would let you want to make a good first impression on my mom and dad, please let you want to make a good first impression on my mom and dad, please wear a tie. It's sort of a default that I would go just wear a tie, dude. It's not, it's not always playing video games, wear a tie, but that's, that's gendered because

if the situation were reversed and this were a cis couple, boyfriend, girlfriend, and the boyfriend was saying to the girlfriend, Hey, uh, you're going to meet my parents. So I want you to wear a skirt for once, or I want you to cover up that tattoo you have, or wear something that makes you look more feminine or more traditional that would automatically be gross. So I was thinking about this and ultimately my feeling was, and it's been established over and over again in the set in this episode, you know, you can make anything work. And the truth is you're not falling in love with a person because of what they wear or how they're going to make a first impression on your mom and dad if you have one or two. You're falling in love

with a person for who they are. And while it's important like every human being to be alert to the context in which you are presenting yourself through clothing at the end of the day you have to choose what feels right to you what makes you look good is what makes you feel good and if you are in love with a person you're not in love with how they present themselves in clothes. You're in love with them, not their tie. And if your mom and dad can't hack it, that's too bad. They're not going to be in love with them. They're not the ones who are in love with them. I would say all clothing has some practical value, right? It covers our feet and keeps nails from going into them. It keeps us warm when it's cold. It keeps the sun off our skin and keeps us from

getting sunburned. It has pockets for us to put things in. There are practical values to clothes and there are some absolute aesthetic values. There are things that are baked into our brains by evolution like that we think green and brown go well together because we look at a lot of trees. I think you mean mulch and bison, but okay, I'll allow it. Thank you. So, you know, I think that there are certain things, you know, it appears that it is not a culturally inherited value that we like colors together that are opposite each other on a color wheel.

You know what I mean? That seems to be something about things that are going on inside our brain. But in general, much more than those things, or at least once those things have been satisfied, clothes are an act of communication. And we are making decisions about our clothes and what they communicate in the context of a social situation, a cultural situation, you know, a certain environment. their parents expect of this interaction. And certainly Sebastian can share with their partner that context.

So their partner can make an informed decision about what they would like to choose to wear. And I think that there is truth in the, when in Rome do as the Romans, there is truth in the- Wear sandals. Yes. Yeah. Wear sandals. Yes. Yeah.

When you're a guest in someone else's social situation, there is virtue and value in doing your best to conform to their expectations and their values. That is true in any social situation. Or to use a different word, just to make an adjustment. Yeah. You know? But I wonder from the tone of this note, and it's something that, you know, we would ask follow-up questions about, but I wonder if there's something more to Sebastian's partner's objections. of this conversation that you described covers up a lot of rich feelings and power dynamics and social dynamics. And I think that been four years since Sebastian had written, I thought it only fair to write him back and find out what happened. What did Sebastian's partner wear? Are they still together? What's going on? And Sebastian wrote right back, and I'm very grateful. He wrote, in the end, and this is a quote, in the end, I did manage to get them to wear the tie for graduation.

Though after all this time it was revealed, the hesitation was because they hadn't come to terms with being trans femme slash non-binary yet. There you go, John. They call that the prestige. Prestige. Continuing Sebastian's letter, we moved in together. Hooray. They moved from Texas to Florida, and we are both currently still living in my hometown in Florida in 2019, just a few months before the pandemic. Since then, we've both begun our transition together. I'm a trans man,

and now the collection of ties is exclusive to me. And so far, I have a total of 48 ties, including the two we both wore for my college graduation. Thanks for reaching out to hear the update on the story signed. Sebastian, he slash him and Maddie, they slash she. What a great story. I'm so happy that you two are living together and having a good time. I hope you've been as okay as possible during these challenging times. I hope you're wearing whatever makes you feel good.

And I would like to know how many of those 48 ties are bolo ties. Asking for a friend, parentheses, Lyle Lovett. Yeah, because if you don't have any bolo ties, I can see if we can get Jerome out there in his TARDIS to donate a couple of bolo ties to your collection. I'm going to get to work on that. But yeah, that's great. That's it, Jesse.

That's the docket, I think. It's clear. That's it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman, our producer, the ever-capable Jennifer Marmer. Ever-capable and ever-stylish, Jennifer. Ever-stylish. Look, we got a lot of people in this office that in 15 or 20 years are definitely going to be wearing those keen sandals.

Jennifer Marmer is not one of them. Jennifer Marmer always looks sharp. I used to work at a sneaker store in Santa Cruz when I was in college. A.K.A. a keen sandal store. No, it was a hip sneaker shop. Oh, okay. Got a lot of cool sneakers there. But for some reason, we also sold keen sandals. And my manager always wanted me to, you know, go hard with them. They're so comfortable and blah, blah, blah. And I couldn't never bring myself to do it. Yeah. I haven't even found a way, you know, there's a, there's

ugly shoes are, are a fashion item, you know, with the rise of Birkenstocks and Hoka's and so on and so forth. And I have a pair of shoes that are very homely and bulbous of the kind where you make a tracing of your foot and you send it to some shoe people in Aurora, New York, and they make a shoe for you. But those sandals, I have not even been able to figure out how to wear as a statement. Is it Birkenstocks where you actually make an impression of your foot in some memory foam or some special sand and mail that back to the company? With Birkenstocks, the sole itself is conforming. So they now offer a sole that is naturally soft. It has some kind of foam in it that makes it impressionable, so to speak. But the traditional footbed of Birkenstocks is designed specifically to, over time, conform to the natural form of your foot. conform to the natural form of your foot, which is why traditional Birkenstocks are kind of uncomfortable for a while before they become very comfortable.

I mean, well, look, we could do this all day, but the show's over. Our editor is Valerie Moffitt. Follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. We're on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets. Hashtag JJHO. The Maximum Fun subreddit is at MaximumFun.reddit.com. There's always lively discussion. Before you get into that lively discussion, I'm not judging you. Wear practical shoes. It's great. It's great. All shoes are great.

Anyone who's leaving their house for the first time meaningfully in this part of the pandemic, just wear whatever you want. You are great. Anyone who's leaving their house for the first time meaningfully in this part of the pandemic, just wear whatever you want. You look great. I will say that if you are wearing those toe shoes, I will be uncomfortable. Physically uncomfortable, but it's because they're uncanny. It's not because I'm judging them per se. It's because they seem like a foot, but they're not a foot. You like what you like.

We understand that, everybody. You don't have to write us letters. Hey, prom season is upon us. Do you have a dispute related to prom? Maybe a junior prom or a senior prom? I love this prom. Prompt. Prom prompt. Maybe a junior prom or a senior prom in your past.

Maybe a junior prom or a senior prom in your present or future. It could be related to dancing, to tuxedos, or to gowns. Do you have a dispute regarding corsages or other wearable flowers or posing for photographs or about royalty, prom kings, prom court, prom whatever? Maybe you have a dispute revolving around the movie Carrie, big prom scene, or the musical Carrie, famously closed in two days or something. No one ever went to go see it. Send them in at MaximumFun.org slash JJAjoe.

I thought I went to three proms. Yeah. And I thought I was pretty cool until I met my co-host Jordan Morris, who I think went to four proms. Four proms. Maybe we can get Jordan to guest on this one. I had an older girlfriend for a while. What can I say?

Yeah, I know. I understand. I went to two proms. So two, three, four. How many proms did you go to, Jennifer Marmer? One. One prom. One, two, three, four.

Count it down. Jordan Morris is the prom king. John Hodgman is, no, Jesse Thorne is the prom vice king. Jennifer Marmer, you're the prom queen. By default, I think. I got to be honest with you, John. I didn't engage in that much prom vice. I mean the one thing, but not the other ones.

Hey, this is not Judge John Hodgman after dark. And Judge John Hodgman, I'm your prom judge. Send in your prom disputes at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. And other disputes at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. And other disputes at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. We'll take what you've got. No case too small. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. MaximumFun.org.

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