Judge John Hodgman - Pleat Bargain

Episode Date: May 4, 2022

Ann-Elizabeth files suit against her wife, Tiffany. Ann-Elizabeth says that she doesn’t cook because she finds it too overwhelming. Tiffany says that because Ann-Elizabeth is such a talented seamstress, it’s surprising that she would have trouble with cooking. To Tiffany, the skills should be transferable. But Ann-Elizabeth says that’s not how it works! Who's right? Who's wrong?Make sure to check out Ann-Elizabeth and Tiffany's web show PHOOLE AND THE GANG for more from this delightful couple! 

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, pleat bargain. Anne Elizabeth files suit against her wife, Tiffany. Anne Elizabeth says she doesn't cook because she finds it too overwhelming. Tiffany says that because Anne Elizabeth is such a talented seamstress, it's surprising she would have trouble with cooking. To Tiffany, those skills should be transferable. But Anne Elizabeth says that's not how it works. Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Well, Banner wants to show everybody he can lead this thing, but he can't lead poop. And he's gonna pay. They're all gonna pay. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Anne Elizabeth and Tiffany, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? Yes. Yep. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? Yes. Yep. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that the only sewing he's ever done is his wrestling costume that he made after he was bitten by a radioactive spider? Yes. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

I hope I got the order of events right. I didn't actually end up sewing anything elliot calen just texted me he's mad that i messed something up no you got it you got it right except uh i don't know that peter parker sewed that wrestling costume i think at least in the movie he just wears like a ski mask oh but then later he makes his own costume. Okay. In the Sam Raimi Spider Mans. And then later an alien turns into a costume for him. An alien says, hey, let me wrap myself around your

body. This can't go wrong. He says, way to go. Sounds great. Wrap yourself around me, alien. Anne Elizabeth and Tiffany, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment. One of your favorites can either be named the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom. This is a tough one. I'm going to give you another quote from this thing.

I'm going to give you another quote. Lord Keldar, it is your hypocrisy that has been a noose around the realm for so long. Lord Keldar. Yeah. And Elizabeth, why don't you go ahead and guess first? Judge Hodgman? Yes, it's me. I have no idea. So I am going to randomly guess that these are quotes from background dialogue in, I'm going to just guess Dune because I honestly... It's always a fair guess.

Right? Which filmed production of Dune are we talking about here? I'll guess the 1984. The David Lynch Dune. Okay, I'll put that in the guest book. Tiffany, do you have a guess? Well, the first quote, you started with Banner. And so that makes me think of Banner Publishing.

Sure. Where Peter Parker works. But your second quote stymies me, and I'm not. But how could you be stymied when I am the one who is stymied? Peter Parker works at Banner Publishing. Banner, not banner. No, Banner Publishing is from Down With Love. It's run by Tony.

It's the classic confusion. We've all been there, Tiffany. So you can tell that I know exactly what this is. I had complete confidence that you are a much more up-to-date comic book reader than I am. Darn it. But okay. Just the other day, I said something. I thought it was from Game of Thrones, and it turned out to be from the Hugh Grant film, Music and Lyrics.

Wow. Yeah. Thank you, Jesse. I don't feel so bad now. to be from the Hugh Grant film Music and Lyrics. Wow. Yeah. Thank you, Jesse. I don't feel so bad now. All right, here, I'll give you, you know what, I'm going to change it now in the spirit of this. This is the new quote.

This is a new quote, completely different property. You shall not pass. Well, that's Lord of the Rings, Judd. Incorrect. That's Love Actually. Love Actually. Oh, that's Lord of the Rings, Judge. Incorrect. That's Love Actually. Love Actually. Oh, that scene. So instead of Tony Randall.

Instead of Tony Randall. Who was the head of Banner Publishing. Right. Right. Yeah. Tony Randall is not in this. Right. A final hint.

It's a movie. Everybody wants to be a hero. And in everyday life, most of the time, you don't get to be the hero. That's the last quote I'm going to give you. I don't. Wow. I think all guesses are wrong. I think all guesses are wrong.

Yes, they're all wrong. The only superhero movie I know at all is Mystery Men. It's not a superhero movie. Hang on. I was talking before I took in what you said. Mystery Men is the only superhero movie that you've seen? Well, I've seen some of those, but I haven't retained them. The only one I've memorized is Mystery Men. With Janine Garofalo with that bowling ball with the skull in it? Yes.

She said something about graduate school. That was funny. And of course, our friend friend paul rubens was in it yes the the spleen yep the spleen yeah sorry not the farter well in any case all guesses are wrong it is not a superhero movie it is a documentary from the year i want to say 2006 yes called dark on d-a-r-k-o-n a documentary about live action role-playing gamers that was to be adapted into a scripted fiction film called dark on by me but after many drafts of the script it was put on hold where it has stayed ever since. Ah, well, Darkon, you shall rise again. And I looked to Darkon because I see here in the brief that was prepared that you two met at a Renaissance fair. And I know that LARPing is not Ren Faire.

I don't want to cross the streams. I apologize if that's offensive. Not at all. Okay. But it was the closest piece of culture to Ren Faire that I was willing to reference. Thank you. While also seeding, I hope, the producers of Darkon out there to rethink, maybe restart that old script again. I still got it.

I still got it, everybody. It's in an accordion folder somewhere in this office. It's in an accordion folder somewhere in this office. The Venn diagram of the LARP world and the Ren Faire world is almost one complete circle. So definitely. Okay, good. I'm glad to hear it. There were definitely some Ren Faire scenes in the script for Darkon that I wrote, which I cannot share with anybody, but now I've talked about it enough.

Let's move on. The point is, when your dispute crossed my desk, the only words I saw on it, aside from your wonderful names, Anne Elizabeth and Tiffany, was Renaissance and fair. And I'm like, yeah, we got to get them on. I don't know what your dispute is. I don't understand your dispute. I honestly don't care. I want to talk about the Ren Faire, but let's go ahead and try this case. Who seeks justice before Lord British himself? I do, Your Honor. All right, Anne Elizabeth, what is the justice that you seek?

So Tiffany equates cooking and sewing. And while Tiffany herself is also a seamstress and has made many beautiful garments in her time i've made more garments not that it's a race because it's not we're not competing um but uh the two processes i maintain are you have made more garments in this marriage? I have wrought the majority. But Tiffany maintains that the process of cooking is identical to the process of sewing and therefore should not intimidate me. Whereas I maintain that in sewing, the materials while being attached to each other are not catalyzing one another and converting one another into a new substance.

Whereas in cooking, you're creating a new chemical substance out of other chemicals. And so you can't just fix it. You have to throw it away and start over. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. By cooking, it's very simple. Anne Elizabeth, cooking is very simple you roast the turkey leg you sell the turkey leg you have to salt it heavily first okay there is some seasoning yes to turn it into a turkey ham but yes i mean when you when you want to when you want to

celebrate history of medieval europe you call it the the Renaissance, even though that's a different time period. Correct. And you roast a New World food that was never seen in Europe until. And you sell it alongside pizza. And what you tell people is shepherd's pie, but it's really just mashed potatoes with some beef in it. Huzzah. Huzzah. Huzzah to the tipper.

Yes. It's been a long time since I've been to the Ren Faire and I miss it a lot. Well, it's been a long time since I've been to the Ren Faire and I miss it a lot. Well, it's been a long time since we've been to the Ren Faire as well. That's true. That's a long time ago. The mead is just cream soda and Everclear. And the absinthe is really just melted licorice. That's what the blacksmith is doing.

That's right. that's what the blacksmith is doing that's right ann elizabeth charges that you that you you would like ann elizabeth to cook more then she does she not cook enough what's going on i don't i don't want her to cook more but i want to um i want to help her get past her hesitance to cook. I see. I think that the processes, while not identical, are similar. And they both have instructions. And sure, you can take a garment that's sewn wrong and you can pull the seams apart and correct it. But Anne Elizabeth, what about the blue dress?

The one that I absolutely failed on and had to throw away instead of... What about the blue dress? So I did have one garment that turned out like many of my cooking experiments, garment that turned out like many of my cooking experiments, where I made so many mistakes on it that I wore it once and had to throw it away and start over. Which is what you do in cooking. Let me understand this metaphor. The metaphor is that when you are making a dress, in this case, one that is blue, and it doesn't come together the way you want it to, you can try to fix it, but sometimes it's unfixable, and then you throw it away. Is that right? That you make mistakes in cooking, it's no big deal because you can just

wear it once and throw it away. Your Honor, I'd like to argue that the inclusion of the blue dress as an argument is flawed, because in that instance, that was just my own rage at having made many mistakes. I could have shortened the gown, made many adjustments, but I was very angry at it, and so I disposed of it. But I could have gone back and fixed it. But if you make a casserole and you don't add the onion soup or whatever ingredient at a specific time and you get to the end, you can't just add it in at the end and go and assume that it will taste good. Let the record show that Anne Elizabeth raised two thumbs up. My apologies. Let the record further reflect that Ann Elizabeth and Tiffany are speaking to us from Milwaukee, where it makes perfect sense that the example for cooking is you forgot to add the onion soup to the casserole. Yeah, I was just about to say, where are we speaking to you from? Milwaukee, I see. Yeah, North Coast.

The home of the bronze fawns. Yeah. Milwaukee upon the shores of Lake Michigan. Lake Michigan. One of the Great Lakes. One of the Great Lakes, indeed. It's hydrologically identical to Lake Huron. Apologies to bailiff Jesse Thorne for delving into Great Lakes material.

Just saw it, by the way. I just saw that Great Lake of Michigan. I was in Chicago briefly for an unrelated side quest, and boy, did it look great. Really liked it. Sorry that I haven't been to Milwaukee lately. Love that onion soup casserole. It's funny, though, because a casserole is truly one of the most forgiving of cooking endeavors.

But you are intimidated. Let me just make sure I understand this. You are intimidated by cooking. You don't like to do it. It gives you no pleasure. Tiffany, your argument is that, uh, and Elizabeth, if she did more of it and got better at it, she would enjoy life more, or you just want more casserole than you have time to make yourself? Well, I think that I grew up in a household where my mother started cooking at age 15. She started helping a neighbor in their household, and that was her job. And I grew up with a really great positive role model. In fact, all of my siblings, I'm one of seven. And no matter what our gender identities, we all learn to cook, clean, sew, do laundry, make food. And I think that cooking together can be a pleasurable

activity. And one that you do not currently enjoy in your partnership, your marriage with your wife. I wouldn't say that. I think that we— I don't mean to say that you don't enjoy it, but that you don't enjoy it as often as you would like because of—there has to be a reason you're here. I do flip out when I try to cook. Okay. Here we go. Thank you.

Tiffany is being too kind. She is. It's true. I admit it. Yeah, you do flip out. I don't come from as happy a family background and cooking was weaponized during my youth. Oh. Yes. So it was made, first of all, because I was a girl person growing up and the only girl person in my household.

I have one brother, an older brother. My mother, who lived with various mental illnesses and addictions, she viewed me as a threat, which no one can understand. I mean, it's not a thing to be understood. I can only understand that that is horrible and I'm sorry. Oh, thank you. So, um, so I was not included in the teaching of any domestic skills. I wasn't, I wasn't taught how to do any sewing, any cooking. I had to figure out cleaning on my own. sewing, any cooking. I had to figure out cleaning on my own. My brother learned everything from my mom, but I was excluded. You weren't allowed to do chores. Correct. Okay. Most would celebrate

at this. I'm not trying to spin that as a good thing. I find it so, you know, a lot of the time on this podcast, we try to scratch the surface a little bit and get to the crux of what's going on. In this case, I'm pretty good with the surface. It sounds like it was awful. It was bad. It was bad. I think anything that's serious enough to make a child wish they could do more chores is something that we can just take, we can just accept, we can stipulate was real bad.

That was bad. Yeah. So now cooking carries that extra weight of me having, I immediately flash back to times when my mother was trying to cook but was inebriated. And so everything went wrong, and it resulted in a huge family fight. And so I know that that's something that I have to work on, and I have been working on it. But cooking for me carries that extra little flavor of terror. Sure. Because I feel like if I do it wrong and of course i'm just a little

just a little soup song of trauma mary on petit and elizabeth is that true for other domestic activities um no just cooking really well it can't be jesse thorne because have you seen this evidence that they've sent in let's see this evidence we have some evidence from from both parties submitted by anne elizabeth we have photos and this is you in these in these outfits correct these are and i'm going to guess you're at a renaissance fair in these photos okay because it's very it's a very specific look most of them were taken at renaissance fair Most of them were taken at Renaissance Fairs. Some of them were taken at Moncaster Castle in England's beautiful Lake District, the home of the original Tom Fool. Oh, what is the original Tom Fool?

I mean, we're all familiar with Tom Fool's imitators. Yeah, I know. Tomfoolery. So, you know, Tom Fool 2 was actually his brother. Right. He followed him around. Exactly. Tom Fool's dad got together. Tom Fool, too, was actually his brother. Right. He followed him around. Exactly. Tom Fool's dad got together.

Tom Fool cred all over the place. Right. Who's Tom Fool? So Thomas Skelton was a fool to the Pennington family in the late 15, early 1600s. And the Pennington family has possessed Moncaster Castle since 1066. So it's been handed down matrilineally, which is unusual. Oh, interesting. That's cool.

Right? It's neat. So Thomas Skelton was their fool. And he was less of a ha-ha fool and more of an uh-oh fool when somebody tried to discredit the reputation of the family's daughter. Somebody tried to discredit the reputation of the family's daughter. He went into town and beheaded them and brought their head home and put it on the newel post of the grand staircase. Classic tomfoolery. What a wacky tomfool.

So, yeah. So every year they do an international festival of fools in the springtime. And I was invited in 2007. And once I went once, they they said you can just come back whenever you want so we've got so yeah well first when you first I thought you were going to say the Tom Fool was less of a ha ha fool more of a oh I get it fool right no way uh in the style of John Hodgman comedy. Not so much laughter. No, he was more of a, oh, no, fool. Yeah, oh, no. But to these outfits and these extraordinary outfits that you have created for yourself, I say, oh, yes.

Thank you. They're great. Thank you. I enjoyed them. Everyone should go check this out on the Judge John Hodgman Instagram page, also on the show page at MaximumFun.org. How would you describe, because I'm at a loss for words, pick one of the outfits that you are proudest of and describe it.

Certainly. So I'll just pick the bright blue one. I call that one the pastoral motley. These are all jesters motleys that are a combination of a silhouette that is historically appropriate to the 16th century. And what I know the audience is going to expect when they see a jester. I know that the audience is not going to be used to the idea of a historically appropriate female jester. But the character that I'm portraying in these instances is Jane the Fool, who was fool to Elizabeth I, one of Elizabeth's many fools. She had both female and male fools and like 17 at a time. Sure.

And so... It's good to be the queen. No fooling. Right? Exactly. You can just have all these pet humans around to entertain you and um so jane the fool in real life i'm sorry i'm sorry i have to interrupt you for one second jesse thorn yeah how dare you am i fired you can never be fired. I did create this show. I'm lucky I still got a job. Oh, no. I missed it.

How dare you? How dare you? I dared. Oh, fooling. As the wife of Noah from Noah's Arcade in Wayne's World said, I just opened my mouth and out it came. That's fooling. I mean opened my mouth and out it came. That's foolin'. I mean, that was Jane the Fool style. That was pure foolin'.

That's what she was known for was blurting out the first thing that came into her mind all the time. So you say this is the silhouette of a traditional fool's costume of the time. Describe what that is and how it is different from what maybe people expect a fool's motley to be. Certainly. So a 16th century noble lady's gown would include, from the bottom up, there's a hooped farthingale, which is a, it's a hooped petticoat. That looks like a hooped farthingale to me. It's funny. I knew it was a farthingale, but I couldn't put my finger on whether it was hooped or. Yeah. Yeah.

Your farthingale cred is established. I apologize. I fire myself. I'm fired. So. I shall be quiet. So there's a petticoat that's stiffened with steel hoops. In the time period, it would have been stiffened with whalebone or reeds, but those don't go in the laundry well or get imported well or involve too much cruelty.

So mine are made of steel. And then over that are a series of petticoats and an overskirt and a padded roll called a bum roll that is really more appropriate to the very end of the 16th century but it's too funny say anything i'm not gonna say anything about it thank you it's very kind yeah it's it's the predecessor to the bustle and to that um bum roll right the bum roll i understand what it's called But mine's so big that I've named it bum rollio because it's like my Shakespearean friend that's always got my back. Wow. You're also fired, so. Nope.

That was a justified hot chat. Fair enough. If you're going to be a fool at a Renaissance fair, you're going to need some bum equipment. It's true. It's true it's true and it it provides not only a lot of comedy material but it gives people a place to leave stuff people frequently leave like dogs and babies and beers and all kinds of stuff back there wow so yeah so um the bum roll that i wear is comically large they would never have been that large in the time period but the audience likes it too much for me to give it up so i got a giant bum roll

the audience likes big bum rolls they cannot lie they cannot feign deceive us that's no i like that there we go only the renfair could save a shop-worn Sir Mix-a-Lot joke. Amazing. You're wearing a lot of really intensely bold colors, but very carefully coordinated. And you're also wearing a lot of details on this gown or outfit that recall the ring-a-ding flap hat that we associate with the fool. same sort of jester that you would see on a playing card or that you would see in a pastiche of medieval life, but also have a link to the era. When you say a pastiche of medieval life, for example, the Renaissance fair. Exactly. But these tassels with the bells on the end that we associate with the court jester, that would not necessarily be what a lady's fool of the 16th century would be wearing.

That is correct. There is one portrait of Jane the Fool that is at Hampton Court Palace. It's part of a triptych that is an allegory of the family of Henry VIII. And she's just wearing a dress, just a kind of a wool, nothing dress. She's actually wearing a little black dress.

She originated with a little black dress. Exactly. Very simple. And she has this hat. It's just a simple shift. Right? It's so, you would hardly notice her up in the corner with the spaced out look on her face. No, because you know what?

Being a fool isn't about dressing up funny. It's about saying the first thing that comes to your mind. No fooling. Let's take a quick recess. We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh, boy, that would be fantastic.

Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So

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Tell me about how you met Tiffany. Oh. No, excuse me. Tiffany, tell me about how you met Anne Elizabeth. We both started at a specific Renaissance fair in Wisconsin. We started in 1990, and we actually didn't meet until 1998. That's right. We both sort of had our separate...

You worked different zones. Exactly. Of the fair. Different cliques. Yes. What was your world of the Ren Faire, Tiffany, compared to Anne Elizabeth's? Tiffany was a jet, Anne Elizabeth was a shark.

Correct. Yeah, pretty much. Well, uh, uh, I'm transgender. And at the time I was still living as my, uh, natal male self. Uh, and I was in the Queens court. I was one of the knights. And I followed kind of a path that was more male-centered. I started a military group with one of my best friends that was a slice of what the town militia would look like. of what the town militia would look like. And we both, I think, we both were involved in unhealthy relationships, partnerships. And we broke up with our significant others and we both moved away. I moved to San Francisco and Elizabeth moved to Los Angeles.

And we both kind of had a little sabbatical for a year. Without really knowing each other. Yeah, we didn't know each other. But did you not know each other at all? No. Or just sort of... We knew of each other, Your Honor. Bustles passing in the night. Right, right.

Just that other person over there. Bustles passing by the night, as it were. Correct. Nice. Look, I'm trying tiffany was um literally my night in shining armor but before that she um was part of this group of these four super uh physically attractive dudes who the rest of us in the cast just wrote off as decorative. Like we couldn't imagine. It was bad. We were very biased against how pretty they were.

I admit that it was bad. That's a big problem at the Renaissance Fair is anti-pretty bias. It was bad. We were like, they couldn't possibly be functional. How can they be both decorative and functional? Surely decorative. What a Ren Faire diss. It was terrible. Incredible. And yet we got together. Purely decorative. What a Ren Faire diss. It was terrible.

Incredible. And yet we got together. Right? Yeah. There was one night at a restaurant where somebody else was making everyone in the restaurant laugh. And I was like, who dares? This is my territory. Who dareth? Tis I am the fool

at this Shoney's. It was a Shoney's. No, it wasn't. It was down Highway 50 from the Shoney's. It was the Phoenix. Oh, how appropriate. So Tiffany was stealing. Tiffany was getting laughed.

She was hilarious. And I was like, she's funny and smart and adorable. This is not possible. all in one human. This was after we had moved back to the area and... Come back to the show. Came back to the show and met and got married. And then you got married. I have to say...

What an incredible romance. I can't attest to how good at Renaissance fairing Tiffany was. But looking at this picture of Tiffany in her outfit, I can confirm that no one has looked so good in a leather hat since the prime days of the rap group Houdini. Wow. Confirmed. And both in Houdini, from what I've heard, both in Houdini and at the Renaissance Fair, the freaks come out at night. I've heard that the freaks come out at night. I've heard.

Oh, that's actually. I've heard with adults at the Renaissance Fair. When you all are working the Ren Fair, you were working the fair. You weren't purely decorative. You were functional. We were. We were there for the audience. And so did you live on site?

Did the freaks come out at night at the Ren Faire or what? So I did live on site for a while. And I know that on some weekends, Tiffany also lived on site. But the gig is so exhausting that maybe there was some freakiness somewhere on the periphery, maybe out on the weird campground, but most people are just so tired after a gig and so filthy and just pass out. I guess I'm just more curious if people live in like tents and caravans. They do. Like at a state fair or something, or if they go home.

Yep. You were living on site. There are a certain number of people who are local and just go home afterwards. But there's a large number of people who live on the circuit and make an RV park out in the parking lot. I get it though. If you're hauling around those hoops of steel all day, you're going to be tired at the end. Bum rollio is a burden. In any case, well, that's a wonderful story.

And Tiffany, I mean, you also have submitted some photos of food. Yes. These are your photos of your food. Right. All very appetizing. Tell me what I'm seeing here. First, some scrambled eggs on toast with lox. Yeah.

Some scrambled eggs with smoked salmon on toast. I believe there's a picture of like an apple crisp, but it's crustless to keep it low carb. And then some perfectly poached eggs, no vinegar, no grape nuts. Some perfectly poached eggs, no vinegar, no grape nuts. I have to say those eggs are perfectly poached. And Kenji Lopez Alt would be proud. They look delicious. And I want to eat this whole photo, frankly, because it's out. I spent a good portion of lockdown learning how to make perfectly poached

eggs. Well, you did a great job, it would seem to me. And since you know how to do it, who cares if Anne Elizabeth knows how to do it? My point exactly. That's true. Why make that redundant? I love to cook. I'm not saying that. Oh, and one moment. Our giant cat is attacking the course. Oh, how could this episode get better? Let me see that cat. Pay the tax. Uh-oh, uh-oh.

Payeth the cat tax. Retrieve him. Shall I? I'll retrieve him. I wonder what the cat's name is. Tony. Tony the cat. Oh.

Tony the cat. Oh. Tony the cat. Classic beefy buddy. That's good. That's a good cat. So, Anne Elizabeth, we have to settle this dispute. As much as I would love to talk Ren Faire with you both and look at your cat some more and everything else. and look at your cat some more and everything else. How does Tiffany encourage you to cook more such that you would come to me,

but a stranger on a podcast, to ask your loving wife to leave you alone about it. So, Tiffany, when I will ask about the finer points of a particular recipe, she'll say, you just do this, and then you just do this, and just do this, and just do this. But each of those justs are infinitely expandable, because they include fine measurements that many cookers and people who frequently cook food are very casual about. But as it turns out, there's a very big difference between a teaspoon and a tablespoon. And also when a person says teaspoon or tablespoon, they may mean a different implement than the one that you have in your drawer. And there's just so many things that can go wrong that it's not, to me, it doesn't seem

like it's just a follow the instructions as they are written very explicitly. And Elizabeth, is your objection that when a recipe says to use a teaspoon of something, you don't use the spoon that you would use for tea. I think you can figure this one out, Aunt Elizabeth. I believe in you. I'm beginning to sway over to Tiffany's side here. No, no. I simply.

No, if you were going to say a dry cup measure versus a liquid cup measure, of course, you'd be absolutely right. There is a difference there and it is very confusing. It is. And I just made that mistake the other day when I, what was I trying to make? Pancakes. I was trying to make pancakes. That didn't work. But didn't we fix it? Well, we did fix it. We did fix it. And then we had twice as many pancakes. Right. Which we ended up throwing some away because we had far too many pancakes. And they got bad. Too many pancakes. Yeah.

But what you lost, what you wasted in pancakes, and of course, wasted food is always a sad thing. You gained an experience. Next time you'll know. The dry measure cup is different from a liquid measure cup. That's true. This is true. Why would you describe how you felt when you messed up those pancakes? This is a nexus of anxiety. Yes. Yeah, heart racing panic. I mean, you know, admittedly, I was mainly making pancakes for me. So it wasn't as crucial an issue as if I were

making food for the both of us. Tiffany lives with type one diabetes, which means that mealtime has sort of an added urgency to it. So if Tiffany has counted for carbohydrates that are anticipated and those carbohydrates are not delivered in the food in a certain amount of time, it could be a crisis. Not that Tiffany would ever, you know, say to me, you are responsible for my sugar crash. But I don't, I fear it. So there's that as well. Does she often talk in that voice? No. That villain voice?

That's entirely me making a cartoon out of everything. You are responsible. I am the one who lives in the tree. That's entirely me. That's me all the tree. That's entirely me. That's me all the time. Answer three riddles. You shall not cook. You shall not pass.

It is I, your primary care physician. It is I, Andrew Lincoln, in love actually saying, you shall not pass. I can't believe I remembered Andrew Lincoln of all the people in that movie. The creepiest one. The deep cut there. Tiffany, this is what I'm struggling to understand.

Why do you think that anyone who can follow any kinds of instructions is capable of cooking? Do you think that anyone who can follow any kinds of instructions is capable of cooking? Do you think that people who make, all people who make model rocket chips can cook? I really don't know. That's not kind of in my mind. I just think that I see that Anne Elizabeth has fear about this process that is required for all of us to gain sustenance. And she is the smartest person I know.

This is how smart she is. She says that she— how smart is she well her ask her what her current hobby is i will what's your current hobby what do you what on earth do you mean what are you learning oh norwegian but i mean she's learning norwegian every day she goes onto her app and she learns Norwegian and then she tells me about it. I know so many languages, not because I wanted to, but because I'm around her. So I don't know. I just feel like, I feel that there are some fears that one has that one can overcome by doing the task. What do you think Anne Elizabeth will gain by overcoming this fear? I think she will gain more confidence in making a meal and enjoying having a meal. Does she have this kind of anxiety surrounding anything else?

this kind of anxiety surrounding anything else? I don't really perceive that. I don't think so. How do you feel when she refuses to cook with you? I feel sad. And hungry. And hungry. But that is not the only food you have to live on. You are capable of feeding yourself. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's not that you ask for Anna Elizabeth's participation for your sustenance, your physical sustenance. It's emotional sustenance. Yes. I think that we can have an enjoyable time making a meal.

We've never had an argument. We've been together 22 years. We. We've never had an argument. We've been together 22 years. We've never, ever had an argument. This is our sole dispute in all of that time. Yeah, I was going to say, you can barely manage to have one on this podcast, which is supposed to be about arguments. Well, I'm sorry. We're frustratingly agreeable. See? Tiffany, in my family, I'm the, as Anne Elizabeth so eloquently put it, the cooker. Primarily.

And I feel that were I to teach my perfect and wonderful wife to cook, it would be a disaster. Not because of anything about my wife, but because of me. I'm incapable of having, I get uncomfortable when someone else is in the room while I'm cooking,

much less trying to help someone cook. Do you think you're the kind of person who could help your wife through this anxiety in a way that would support her enough that she could overcome it? Or do you think you would contribute to it? I think I can help her overcome it. Is that true, Anne Elizabeth? I think possibly to an extent, but we're just going to have to work very hard on a shared glossary of what it means when you say, just flip it over. That's not a simple thing to do. Tiffany, is it that you want Anne Elizabeth to learn to cook or is it that you want to teach Anne Elizabeth to cook? That had never occurred to me. That idea had never occurred to me. I love her so much. And we just enjoy so much of life. We sit around laughing quite a bit and we comfort each other. And I just want to share

with her and teach her so that we have another enjoyable activity to engage with each other in. Did I say that right? Yeah, no, it makes sense. Do you think that the sharing and teaching is a little one-sided in your relationship? That you don't get to share and teach as much? I don't think so. Do you know what I mean? I don't know. I'm asking Tiffany and Elizabeth because what I'm accusing you of is getting to be the sharer and the teacher more than Tiffany gets to be the sharer and the teacher of you.

This may not be true. Do you see what i'm saying but i'm just trying i'm just wondering if that may be part of why like tiffany has taught herself how to make perfect poached eggs she has she makes food for herself you have um a complicated relationship with cooking and it may be that tiffany wants to share these skills with you because she wants to help you. And also she wants to be able to share something with you. And maybe you're doing more sharing than she gets to do in the relationship, more teaching than she gets to do in the relationship. This may not be true. Does any of that sound true to you, Tiffany? Yes or no? Or maybe?

Yes or no. And maybe. Two of you have been so supportive to each other, and you would like to have the opportunity to support her through this difficult growth opportunity? Absolutely. I see how her upbringing has shaped her ability to cope with certain things, and I always try and be a cushion or a comfort to her in those things. And I think perhaps this is yet another activity where she has, you know, a lot more fight or flight. And by being a guiding presence, I think that it can become something that is less anxiety-provoking for her, whether I'm here or not. Let the record reflect that Anne Elizabeth is offering Tiffany a gaze that can only be described as parodically loving. I consider it to be merely decorative. But not functional. But actually functional.

That was a functional loving gaze, not merely decorative at all, of course. And Jesse Thorne, may I functionally gaze lovingly at you for asking a question that really was what I was trying to get at, but couldn't, got tripped over all my own words. So thank you for that. This is a good partnership. You're unfired and so am I. We're rehired. Oh, that's good. I'm going to come make a mess in your kitchen and see how that goes. Jesse Thorne. I'm going to unorder your refrigerator. Yeah. You know, we need you to come over and make that macaroni and cheese again, because it's been quite a few years since you came and made macaroni and cheese in our kitchen.

And boy, oh boy, did you know how to sport an apron. So, Anne Elizabeth, you've heard all of Tiffany's words. Yes. these words. Yes. It says here that if I were to rule in your favor, you would want me to order Tiffany to cease false comparison slash equivalence between cooking and sewing. Yes.

And to acknowledge cooking involves chemical changes that are not similar to constructing a 16th century costume. Correct. Your honor. All right. I will consider that order, century costume. Correct, Your Honor. All right. I will consider that order, but you have not asked me to order Tiffany to knock it off and cease trying to get you to cook with her. That, Your Honor, may have been a lack of foresight on my part in considering what I

wished Your Honor to order. But that being said, I do acknowledge that. Why hath we most all of us speaketh like Ren Faire when there is, isn't there is overlap between Ren Faire and fake legal speaketh? Yes. I doth not speak like Renaissance Faire. I speaketh as a guy at colonial williamsburg you guys really gotta work on your verb conjugations if i may speak entirely out of turn hey hey sorry we don't speak norwegian okay i'm only learning indonesian the favorite foreign language of the yale football would if you like me to order that tiffany knocketh it off

uh mary i would and yet i would feign um i i am at sixes and sevens with myself your honor because i from this conversation i have learned that this is all of this is simply a quarrel with myself about being bad at something and like your honor often expresses in your honors books and comedies I really like to be good at stuff yeah you like to be good at stuff and you don't like being not so good I hate being bad at stuff I can't't abide it. Abideth it not. Tiffany, you request that Anne Elizabeth work with you once a month to find some type of a recipe that

you both can make together. Correct. So once a month, you're asking for just some cooking time. Yeah. Like a date night. Right. A date night with literal dates. Well, we'd have to buy a walk to make some poached eggs right the kenji lopez altway right what would be that what would be the first the first thing you would tackle in the food department on date night um i would request a lasagna with spinach.

Oh, boy. Now I'm getting nervous. And either ground turkey or some other good animal protein or plant protein. It doesn't even have to have any animal product in it. But like a lasagna. product in it but like a lasagna as as tiffany describes this she is offering a pure a functional gaze of pleading at ann elizabeth with each with each option for the recipe looking at ann elizabeth and and and and hoping that ann el will not, I don't know, feel what? When I say, let's make a lasagna to you, Anne Elizabeth, or when I should say,

when Tiffany says, let's make a lasagna, how does it make you feel? I am less frightened, Your Honor, of a lasagna than I am of other dishes. I once coveted- What could be more terrifying than a lasagna? It's notoriously one of the hardest things to make of all the casseroles. A lasagna, it takes a long time. So you have time to- It's labor intensive. But you have time to consider your failures while the lasagna noodles soften and soak over many hours.

You have time to panic. many hours you have time to to panic there's there's not a lot happening in a very small space of time with micro amounts of of ingredients that if you err by one grain one direction or the other it will imperil the meal you did a very good job of making tiffany's argument for her i think i have heard everything i need to i am'm going to go to the, what's a good Ren Faire thing? Tell me what's a... You're going to retire to the Star Chamber Court, Your Honor? Yeah, thank you very much. Did you hear that, Jesse? I'm going to retire to the Star Chamber Court. I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Anne Elizabeth Tiffany. Yes. There's something I need to get to in a second, but first I'm obliged by the format of the program to ask you how you feel about your chances here in the case. So, Anne Elizabeth, how do you feel you might come out of this? I know I'm going to be ordered to cook once a month, but once a month is a good start. It's baby steps, and I'm resigned already to my fate. That's what we're looking for in any activity, resigned to our fates. By the way, I just emailed Kenji. I suggested he change his lasagna recipe to add the step, consider your failures. And then in parentheses, former gifted children only. Yes.

Tiffany, how do you feel about your chances and how does the drama of the gifted child express itself for you? I feel okay. I understand that trauma in anyone's life can weigh heavily on them and that if things don't go my way, it won't impact me greatly. But I feel that I have at least a 50-50 chance. Now to the thing that I feel like needs to be addressed before we continue. So you two are sharing a Zoom frame here in our video conference that's allowing us to record this program. And I see a carefully composed living or sitting area behind you. There's also two skeleton feet just barely

entering the frame. That's Uncle Fwety. I don't know how to make this short. We host a weekly web show and Uncle Fwety is a character on the show. He's just a skeleton. He just sits there, but he's very, very popular with the audience. He's just a skeleton. He just sits there, but he's very, very popular with the audience. He's a dry skeleton, unlike the skeletons within Tiffany and I, which are perpetually wet. But we've got Uncle Fwety, and we dress him up in dumb clothes when we do our space fun show week. We put him in a space suit. When we had our Jewish space lasers show, we put them in a Jewish space laser suit. Right now, Uncle Fwety is just reclining on our overstuffed easy chair with a pillow on his lap so that the cats can sleep on him, which they like to do. What is this web show called?

It's called Fool and the Gang. I'm the fool and you're the gang. When Anne Elizabeth and I stopped performing at the Renaissance Fair, her character is Jane the Fool, and she spells fool, P-H-O-O-L-E. So when we stopped doing the Renaissance Fair, she has such a global following that we transitioned over to music and she is now dj fool it's true so the show is spinning fool and the gang spinning all the hottest madrigals weirdly we have in the 10 years that actually nine years that the show's been on the air. We have only had four tunes that have recorder in them, amazingly. And they're all by Vlad Koshimar, who is himself a skeleton. We don't have time to get into this. We're trying to make a podcast, not four podcasts in a row, each on a different fascinating topic. We didn't even get into Dragonlance, Jesse,

and how I know Margaret Wise. We're not even going to enter into this discussion. Do we want to talk about any other softcover books that I read as a 10-year-old sitting in aardvark books in San Francisco? Okay, look, we don't have time for any of this. We'll be back with the verdict in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my

podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club janet varney is

available every thursday on maximum fun or wherever you get your podcasts thank you and remember no running in the halls if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-o-d-c-a-s-t-i hmm are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit.

No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. So, first of all, Tiffany is absolutely right. If you can learn Norwegian, you can learn to cook. Tiffany is also correct. If you can create a full costume of this precision you definitely can make a lasagna that said and elizabeth is also correct that there is a catalyzing sorry as i was saying catalyzing the cat walked through the frame is that magic am i a a wizard? You summoned him, your honor. Am I a medieval? Am I a medieval? A Renaissance fair wizard? Perhaps.

You cast cat. There are. Okay. Okay. Jane the fool. Only the jester can speak truth to the king. But I'm asking you not to do it because I'm trying to get this verdict out. Thank you, your honor.

There are obviously differences between cooking and learning Norwegian. There are obviously differences between cooking and making costumes. The intricacy of your costuming suggests that I suspect you probably do have translatable skills towards making a lasagna, which is after all the, the, what is it called again? The roller bum, the bum roll. The bum roll, your honor. Yeah, it is the bum roll. It is the bum roll of all casseroles. You, there's a lot of layering of, there's a lot of frills and layering and steel hoops

involved to both lay down and jump through when making a lasagna. It scares the heck out of me. I'll tell you what I love to cook, but you are right. And Elizabeth, that there is also the difference, you know, different things are different when you are sewing a thing, you can rip it apart and re-sew it again in ways that you can't when you're dealing with chemical reactions of food. And it sounds to me like the thing, one of the things that makes you nervous are is fast cooking, right? Like the poaching of an egg where it truly is very difficult. It is, the consistency will change in the breath of a second. That is correct, Your Honor.

The problem with the two of you is you're so adorable, you're so obviously in love, and you really don't have any fight here, that you honestly, Anne Elizabeth, me thinks thou doth protest not enough. I am maligned in this, Your Honor, and yet I shall yield. You, I mean, yes, I agree that there are differences between skills, but there are indeed similarities as well. I bet you can learn to cook is the point. I bet you can. I'll bet a hundred gold pieces. And a dragon'sorde that you could. But does that mean you should?

Does that mean you should? And this is where I am not so sure. Tiffany, I appreciate very much that you would like to enjoy cooking with your spouse. But I will also say that fun, joyous cooking with your partner is something that mostly happens in rom-coms. I don't know if there's a scene in Love Actually

where two people are cooking successfully together, but it's only in the movies, let me tell you what. Cooking is not really very collaborative in my experience. I don't think you go to any commercial kitchen where three or two people are in charge. And I would encourage you. Well, I think that you probably are both able to cooperate and everything else. There's a reason why it gets hot in that kitchen and people need to get out of it. And it's not just because the stove is on, but it's, you know, in many ways, I think your suggestion of a lasagna is good for reasons, paradoxically, that you're full of a wife pointed out because it, it is a slow process,

right? It is a good introductory process, but it nonetheless is cooking together. And why I warn you against this road is that Ann Elizabeth has trauma associated with cooking. Ann Elizabeth has trauma associated with cooking. She also wasn't allowed to learn how to become a seamstress, and yet she triumphed in most cases. Emotionally, I would especially encourage you not to entangle yourself, Tiffany,

in the trauma that Anna Elizabeth feels around her mother. I just feel like it's, it's, it's a minefield. And, you know, one thing you can say about Renaissance, Renaissance fair times,

you know, knights in shining armors didn't have to worry about minefields i was not something that just i don't know what you know i guess you could go into a castle and have boiling oil poured on you but at least you didn't have to worry about stepping on a landmine i think that i think that it's a delicate issue that I have to respect. And I know that you also respect about Anne Elizabeth's ambivalence around cooking. Anne Elizabeth, if you want to cook, if you want to learn, and I encourage you to do it because it's great and it's fun, you should consult a cooking teacher online or off and a therapist online or off yes i don't i don't know tiffany if it's going to be fun until ann elizabeth works through these things so i can't order in your favor but i will offer this legally binding suggestion. Make the lasagna, right?

And Tiffany, you make it. And Anne Elizabeth, you just sit and watch. And Tiffany and Debra, you know, do a cooking show. Do you get anxious Anne Elizabeth watching cooking shows? No. I mean real cooking shows, not ones where you have to like you get a basket of uh of artichokes and banana slugs and you have to make a cupcake out of it in 35 seconds or whatever no one enjoys this no i'm talking about like uh like uh like a julia child right to, right. Okay, old school. I like the way you think, Tiffany.

Be a cooking show. Perhaps it will awaken curiosity, and perhaps you will be able to explain gently, over time, once a month, what the difference is between a teaspoon and a spoon you use to stir your tea. That's a reasonable confusion. I understand. But, you know, I cannot wait. I cannot wait, honestly, and Elizabeth, until you start to dig into culinary history of the period that you're interested in.

Because there's some foolish stuff that goes on there. And weird historical artifacts like we call a teaspoon a teaspoon, even though we would never use it for tea, etc. Although, Your Honor, I promise never to make a goat's foot jelly. I'm not doing that. That's too gross. Oh, I also order you to make a goat's foot jelly. No, no, Your Honor, no. Within one year. No. Oh, boy. It's the color of sadness, Your Honor. Mark it. Mark it. Well, I would like it to be a vegetarian goat's foot jelly. Mark it. We're recording this late April, the fool's month.

It is. It is, Your Honor. I want you both to come back in a year and report. And I want to see that. I want to see some kind of jelly. I want to hear a report on lasagna. But my verdict is, and Elizabeth, if she wants to learn how to cook with your support and encouragement, she should consult a third party cooking expert slash therapist to work through whatever the trauma is. But I do think once a month, sit down and just make a, make a lasagna once a month. Make a lasagna once a month for her.

I guarantee you by the time it's time to make that jelly, Anne Elizabeth will know a lot more about cooking. She'll get to have learned what her mother never taught her. And what do we want more out of a marriage after all than to marry our mothers? It's everyone's goal. This is the sound of a gavel. It is the man!

What the rock is cooking! Judge John Hodgman rules, that is. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the court. Anne Elizabeth, how do you feel? I am sentenced to a monthly lasagna but i i'll get to eat lasagna once a month so that's that's definitely a win for me but tiffany's going to explain to you what she's doing and show you absolutely yeah and i want a three camera setup tiffany i want you to be able to speak to all three cameras. We have that capability.

I have a feeling you do. Yikes. Well, that gives me an incentive because you know I love setting this all up. I know you do. Tiffany, how do you feel? To quote Shakespeare, though my stars have fallen, my skies shall not want. Ha, Henry V. Wow.

Yeah. Nice one. I think. Was it? Yeah. I'm fine with this. I understand that this goes beyond a grilled cheese sandwich. This is a little bit more emotionally charged or can be. And I'm fine with making lasagna, but I am very afraid of that goat's foot jelly. Tiffany and Anne-Elizabeth, thanks for joining us on the program. And Tiffany, congratulations on quoting Henry V in a literalization of the drama of The Gifted Child. literalization of the drama of the gifted child. Maximum meta achieved. Thank you, bailiff Jesse Thorne.

And thank you, your honor, judge John Hodgman. Yes. Everyone check out fool in the gang. I'm definitely going to be checking it out. Outstanding. Your honor.

Another judge, John Hodgman case is in the books in In just a minute, we'll have swift justice. Our thanks to Twitter user at Jimmy Casey MD for naming this week's episode Pleat Bargain. If you want to name a future episode, follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJHO. I'd love to click on that hashtag and see what people are saying about the program. Me too. Oh, thank goodness. I thought it was just me. No, me too. The Maximum Fun subreddit is at maximumfun.reddit.com. There's always a lively discussion of the Judge John Hodgman podcast there. Evidence and photos from the show are posted on our Instagram account at instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman. Follow us there and you can see,

among other things, the feet of that skeleton. Probably Jen will put in a picture of Houdini wearing their leather hats too, just in case anybody misses that reference. Our producer, by the way, Jennifer Marmer. Thank you, Jennifer. Our editor, Valerie Moffitt. Thank you, Valerie.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment. Here is something from David. My weekly Tuesday night movie crew likes to watch werewolf films when a full moon lands on that night. I can test. Full moons happen on one day. Others argue that full moons occur on up to three days around the time of the actual full moon. Well, according to my very swift Googling, the moon can appear to be full a day before or after the technical full moon, but the technical full moon is one day. I'm going to say it's one day. One night, I should say. Full moon is one night.

Why? Because there aren't enough decent werewolf movies to watch. Yeah. You're going to run out of werewolf movies. Make it special. Make it special. Make it a special treat. Maximumfun.org slash JJHO. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximumfun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Audience supported.