Judge John Hodgman - Probable Claus

Episode Date: December 13, 2012

Judge John Hodgman decides Santa's fate in a married couple's household.

Hey, Judge John Hodgman listeners, it's Bailiff Jesse here. We just wanted to let you know that this week's episode of the Judge John Hodgman podcast is a special holiday episode that happens to contain some adults-only content. So if you're not comfortable with your child learning about some adults-only holiday-themed information, then turn this off now. learning about some adults-only holiday-themed information. Santa Claus. Then turn this off now. Or turn it down to a volume that only you can hear. I'm not talking about sexy Santa Claus.

Like Santa Baby Santa Claus. It's an existential discussion about Santa Claus. Do you get it, grown-ups? Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, probable clause. Andrew brings the case against his wife, Alex. They disagree on one major aspect of child rearing. Should parents foster a belief in Santa Claus? Alex thinks it's an important tradition.

Andrew didn't grow up believing in Santa Claus and thinks that perpetuating the myth just means lying to your kids. Only one man can decide Santa's fate in this household. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Thank you, Bailiff Jesse. I have a letter here from a Bailiff Jesse. Did you want to read your letter? Yes, I did. Dear Judge, I am 31 years old.

Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus. Papa says, if you hear it on Judge John Hodgman, it's so. Please tell me the truth. Is there a Santa Claus? Oh, Bailiff Jesse, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. Yes, Bailiff Jesse, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity exist.

And you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas, how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no Bailiff Jesses. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. Not believe in Santa Claus? You might as well not believe in pie holes. You might get your papa to hire men to watch all the chimneys on Christmas Eve to watch for Santa Claus, but even if they did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but the most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. No Santa Claus, thank God or whatever, he lives and lives forever. A thousand years from now, Bailiff Jesse, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now,

he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood and swear in disputants in the court of Judge John Hodgman. Now do it now. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? Yes. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he has his own flying reindeer, which he obtained through science? I do. Yes. Very well.

Judge Hodgman? Thank you very much, Bailiff Jesse. Alex and Andrew, hello. Hello. Hi. Christmas cheer to you. And to you. Would you like some wassail?

Yes. Well, I didn't expect you to say yes. I don't actually have any. So, for an immediate summary judgment in your favor, can either of you name the particular piece of culture that I was paraphrasing as I entered the courtroom? Is it Oliver Twist? No, it is not Oliver Twist. However, if either of you gets this right, a fine fat goose for you. Andrew? I know the opening line is playoff.

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. And I'm pretty sure that's from a novel, maybe the title of a chapter or something like that. Beyond that, I don't know. Even though you are pretty sure you are absolutely wrong. It is an editorial from the New York Sun in the late 19th century by Francis Farsellus Church in response to an actual letter that they received from a young court bailiff. No, a young girl named Virginia. Well, at the time. At the time.

Courts were bailiffed by young girls. By young girls. Exactly so. It was a rougher time then. It was. Orphans and young girls in boot blacks. This is before the union movement. Exactly so.

Before the shirtwaless triangle court fire. When I think of the bailiffs who went up against the Pinkertons around the turn of the 20th century. Well, they didn't have much of a fight, did they? No, they were little girls. They were little girls against seasoned police detectives. Yeah, grown men with batons. Or former police detectives and thugs. Yes, exactly so. Dark times.

So, no, you both got it wrong. I'm sorry. I mean, you were right. It is a paraphrasing of the, yes, Virginia, exactly so. Dark times. So no, you both got it wrong. I'm sorry. I mean, you were right. It is a paraphrasing of the Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. And it was written by this fellow Francis Farsellus Church, who otherwise was previously a war correspondent during the Civil War and I think a depressive. And I think that's why he wrote such a horribly existential and dread-filled letter back about how we should have no enjoyment except in sense and sight. The eternal light which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

I think that's what he's speaking of there, his dread of war. And it used to be at the time that parents could lie to kids openly and without punishment and without concern. And if their kids ever called them on their lies, you could simply force them to write a letter to the newspaper and pawn it off on a newspaper editorialist to answer. But nowadays that is not the case. And you have a dispute over this very issue. Is that not so? That is exactly so. Andrew, you do not believe in Santa Claus,

I take it? That is correct. And you never have believed in Santa Claus? I never have. We grew up with Santa as a make-believe part of Christmas. So he was in my Christmas as a child, but it was never something that my parents told me was real. I see. Make-believe part of Christmas much like Christ? No, no, no. No, I'm not saying that. I just said it. I'm not saying it anymore. So, and Alex, you had a different experience? You grew up believing that Santa Claus was a real home intruder?

I did, in fact. I did. And how was that for you? It worked out well for me. I have no resentment. I like my parents. I still send them gifts. Andrew, on the other hand, does not. Now, I think, Jessie, we're going to need to put a qualification in at the top of the show that if anyone at home is listening with children who might yet be in the gray area of belief and disbel if anyone at home is listening with children who

might yet be in the gray area of belief and disbelief in the home intruder known as Santa Claus, turn off your fake internet radios now. But I am going to stipulate now Santa Claus does not exist. Do we all agree on that? Yes. There is no cheer and joy in our life anymore, correct? Correct. All right. And when, Alex, did you find out that Santa Claus was something your parents had made up or a lie that all the parents in town had made up together to tell you children, much like all the parents in the nightmare on Elm street movie, probably around the seven and a half or eight or so. And how did that go? I think initially I was disappointed about it, but you know, I just got over it. And I think I probably continued to pretend like I believed for a while,

just because there was still a benefit to it, both in kind of the fun that it was for my parents and also in getting the gifts. Right. You realize that if you acted all cutesy and naive and young to your parents, you'd get more loot out of them? Yeah, it worked too. Where did you grow up? Texas. Did you have older—they celebrate Christmas in Texas? We do. We do.

Did you get a tree and everything? I never understood that. You certainly never had snow, right? Yeah, we had snow sometimes. And did we get a tree? Yeah, we did we i think we had a a fake tree a fake tree all right yeah uh where in texas you grew up uh east texas so not probably like an hour and a half south of dallas oh okay so you would have snow yeah on occasion i don't think all the time right and now certainly not thanks now we don't have to deal with that anymore because of global warming, right? Yeah. When was the last time you had snow back on?

You know, I don't recall the last time. Andrew might recall that better. Are you also from Texas, Andrew? Yes, I'm from West Texas, and we had snow pretty much every winter. And is that true now? I don't know. We actually haven't been back to Christmas. We've had everyone come visit us since we had the baby.

So I haven't been there in a couple of years. But I know it gets pretty cold still. It might not be snow cold. Okay. So I was just trying to collect some anecdotal data points for my annual climate change freakout. Yeah. Okay.

But back to you, Alex. Were you the oldest, middle child, youngest, only child? What was the birth order? Yeah. No, you know, I think that we rode the bus. And when you ride the bus, I think these things kind of happen in pairs. So as soon as I found out, I think my younger sister probably found out at the same time. Yeah. The truth always outs on the bus. Yes. That's why you can't let your kids ride the bus. I can tell you that I rode a public bus, a San Francisco Municipal Railways Muni bus to school.

Right. And I believe that presents were brought to us by a drunk junkie. You probably had Santa Claus on your bus. A drunkie. A drunk pagan junkie, right? Yes. Exactly so. But Andrew, you did not have the experience of ever believing in Santa. So you did not have the trauma of learning that Santa did not exist.

Is that so? That is so. And your concern is that if you start—you have a son? Is that right? Yes. All right. And what is your son's name? Everest, and he's 17 months old now.

Oh, that's very charming. So he's kind of at that—we're at the beginning of kind of having to start this lore. We have a few years before it really has to be solidified that he's true or fake. But it kind of starts this Christmas. Right. Do you plan to have more children named after mountains? Perhaps. What would the next one be?

K2. Probably K2, yeah. K2? Yeah, that's good. You guys planned that, right? Or did you just think of that? No, it's the only other mountain I know of. Yeah. So you just thought of that?

Yeah. First of all, I'm going to just put down a summary order that you guys start trying to have another child. Please make it a female child named K2 that you can call Kate. And that would be the coolest thing in the world. And then everyone wins.

But right now we have young Everest. You have sent in some evidence to this court, a picture of Everest in a Santa Claus outfit. I can only presume this is designed to make the court go, aww. Is that right? That to make the court go, aw. Is that right? That's not the only reason, but that's the main reason. Well, first of all, the court goes, aw.

Put it in the record, aw. So noted. He's adorable. And he's wearing this Santa Claus outfit, which – so is this to suggest that the deceit is already beginning? Actually, no. This is more defense in case Alex tries to say that I'm not full of Christmas cheer and proof that I am willing to play along with some of the Santa mythology. Are you referring to the specific part of the Santa lore where Santa is a 17-month-old child? No. It's the balding middle-aged part.

It's interesting. It's the roundness of his belly that really made us have to dress him that way. Sure. And it's the fact that his belly rhymes with jelly just like in the Clement Moore poem. But Jesse, you know that in Austria and parts of the Czech Republic and even in parts in Germany, there is the Santa Claus myth is supplanted by an older myth of the Christkinder, which is a version of baby Jesus comes to your house and gives you presents. Did you know that in San Francisco, where I grew up, the Santa Claus myth has been supplanted

by the Santa Claus myth, just to say that we believe Tim Allen comes to our house every year at Christmas. Baby Tim Allen, though, right? It is a baby Tim Allen, yes. It's the deepest grunt he can manage. So the proof of this, what you're trying to prove with this picture is that you're not a total monster,

sir? That you are not such a Scrooge that you will occasionally allow your child to wear a cute Santa outfit? Yes. All right. And then there's this picture of the two of you helping your child to open a present that is wrapped in Santa paper. So you're here helping him open this present and this to prove that your eight-month child is incapable of opening presents on his own because of his poor gross motor skills? Is this photo – He did need a lot of help opening that, yes.

Yeah. I think he was shaken by the fact that he might not get presents in the future without Santa. Oh, I see. You're trying to prove that he's a dummy who's easily terrified? No, I think he's pretty awesome. But this is also proof that I'm – my wife and I went and bought that Santa Claus wrapping paper together. So I am no monster about the general existence of Santa Claus. Alex, is your husband a monster? I think he might be a bitter liberal elitist, perhaps.

Go on. A bitter liberal elitist, perhaps. Go on. I think what happened is that, you know, he grew up without Santa Claus and he probably, to some extent, although I think he's probably internalized it, resents the fact that other kids had this kind of joyful, magical experience. And so now he's decided that the only way to overcome that as an adult is to think that that was the superior position. And so now he wants Everest to have that same kind of superior position. Do you feel, sir, that it is a superior position that you're taking? Why do you not want your son to believe in Santa Claus? Well, okay. So as far as it being a superior position, I think as parents, you're always

trying to be in the superior position when you make decisions for your kid. So in that way, yes. Did it scar me to the point where I'm internally trying to perpetuate this angst with my kids? No. I think – I mean Alex knows this. I love life in general. I get a lot of joy out of the little things, and Christmas is one of my favorite times of the year. And it always has been. So not having Santa didn't make me feel like the season was less magical. I've always been a big fan of all of the celebrations that come with Christmas.

Alex, what evidence do you have that your husband is a joyless crank who is bitter at the world? So I don't think he's a joyless crank, but I do think, for example, I've heard him recount tales with my friends that are Jewish and similarly didn't have Santa Claus that they felt that they knew a secret that their peers didn't when they were young and their peers were talking about Santa Claus. And so that's where that superiority comes in. Superiority is not being used in the way of like a better or more appropriate rationale. So you don't have evidence that he himself was traumatized and is trying to overcome a lack in his life. If anything, he's trying to turn your baby child into as callous a prick as he is.

Well, no, that is the evidence. Like who doesn't want their kids to have that joy and belief and magic that comes with Santa Claus? Who doesn't want to give their kids a leg up in the world, a little bit more information that they can use, a little bit of leverage that they can hold over their little friends on the bus? can use, a little bit of leverage that they can hold over their little friends on the bus. When you're on the bus, do you want to be the kid who's crying because you just learned that Santa doesn't exist? Or do you want to be the kid who just let the bomb drop? Well, I think if we had a kid that knew Santa Claus didn't exist and he told other kids, he'd be in a heap of trouble. But I think I'd rather be the kid that had four or five years of joy and excitement. I'd trade four or five years for that for five minutes of being disappointed that there wasn't a Santa Claus.

Were the first seven years of your life when you believed that Santa Claus existed the only time that you felt joy and excitement in your life? About Santa Claus, yes. About Santa Claus. In that way. Did you feel sad? Well, other than when, like, with our, we have nieces and nephews and stuff, and getting to see their excitement is also kind of generates that excitement and happiness.

I know that this seems counterintuitive because it almost – the role that Santa plays in Christmas for those who celebrate it is so apparent on its face. But make an argument for Santa. apparent on its face. But make an argument for Santa. What is the magic and joy of Santa as you understood it as a kid in your family that you think is worth preserving in your new family? Okay. I think it lets you suspend the reality of daily living. Like it allows people kind of to jointly believe in something that's magical. And you see that kind of reflected in the fact that people are kinder at that time of year. And it's this idea that there's more to us than just what we can see necessarily. There's some benevolent being that's going to, you know, grant us our wishes and who kind of watches over us. Are we talking about Santa now or Christ? I'm getting confused. Because you understand that Christmas does have all of that stuff in it.

Because there's no negative aspect to Santa Claus in the same way that certainly every time I've read Bible stories, there's plenty of fear that comes along with Christ. You know that Santa Claus has two lists, right? Yeah, Santa Claus is as punitive as it gets. Santa Claus is Old Testament. You are either in the good list or in the bad list. I actually think that, one, that's a value as a parent, too. You get to have some kind of leverage, at least in November, while your kids are worried about that.

But, no, I don't anticipate that Andrew and I would actually use a punitive list. So, for Everest, it will only be the nice list. Oh, the Namby Pamby. Oh, yeah. The Namby Pamby New Testament full of love Santa, who's always bringing presents and never lumps of coal. And there will be no Krampus. Let me tell you, I presume you're not going to raise your child in a Krampus tradition. What's the Krampus position? The Krampus in, I believe, Scandinavian countries. Is that right, Bailiff Jesse? Sounds right to me. We're going to say in Europe.

I would have said Krampus. Krampus. But that's not based on past language knowledge or anything. It's just it seems more fun to say Krampus. Krampus. In certain European countries, if you are good, To say Krampus. Krampus.

In certain European countries, if you are good, either Santa or Sinterklaas or Saint Nick or Father Christmas comes and fills up your shoes with fruits and cheeses. I think that's the European tradition. A terrible monster called the Krampus comes and takes bad children away and puts them in his backpack and takes them away to suffer. Alpine countries including Austria, southern Bavaria, south Tyrol, Hungary, Slovenia and Croatia. So not Scandinavian at all. I apologize. All right. Sorry, Alpine countries. He's featured on holiday cards called Krampuskarten. Krampuskarten?

I'm going to send out some Krampuskarten this year, I think. So you would not raise Everest in a punitive Santa tradition. Were you raised in a punitive Santa tradition? Did you live in fear that Santa was not going to bring you what you wanted? No, I don't think so. I don't really have a recollection of that. Santa was not going to bring you what you wanted? No, I don't think so.

I don't really have a recollection of that. Do you have a positive recollection of Santa bringing you something you really wanted one time? Yes, I do. I got a puppy one year for Christmas, which was pretty awesome. Really? So your parents loved you so much that they went through the trouble of almost suffocating a puppy by putting it in a box for you under the tree and didn't even take credit by giving all credit to Santa? Is that what happened? Well, in my family, they don't wrap Santa Claus gifts, so there was no fear of suffocation. But yes, they freely gave that credit to Santa Claus.

Wait, what do you mean you don't wrap Santa Claus gifts? What does that mean? What weird tradition is that? Santa Claus gifts are normally just displayed mean? What weird tradition is that? So Santa Claus gifts are normally, they're just displayed. So whenever you wake up on Christmas morning, you go downstairs and they'll be on display. So like a bike will be sitting there or a dollhouse will be sitting there, but they're not wrapped. Do you build a little revolving platform or something for the Santa gifts? Uh-huh.

And the disco balls normally are? Yeah. You and I were thinking the same again. I like you. Don't you laugh, sir. I don't like you. And is that how you're doing it? Is that how you're doing it in your family? How many Christmases have you had with Everest so far? One, two, one. One. One, of course. 18 months. You can't. That's less than 24 months. I'm getting it. I'm getting it, everybody.

And what was the disposition of Santa this year or this past Christmas, sir? It actually had very little bearing this year. Obviously, he's so small. It really didn't matter. He wasn't – I mean, he was sitting up, but beyond that, wasn't doing much. Our nieces were in town for his first Christmas, so we did have, I think Santa made a visit for them, and probably one of Everest's gifts was from Santa that his grandmother got him. But we didn't really get him that much because it was his first Christmas, and he was seven months old, and all of his needs had been met and then some. So it really wasn't an issue. some. So it really wasn't an issue. And this is, like I said, this is the first year where we really are, I guess, going to have to start playing up that idea. What did you do with him for Krampusnacht?

We're not raising him with fear, I'm told. Which, by the way, that's news to me. I didn't realize that we were doing the Santa thing, but not the naughty nice list. Does that change your opinion? Well, it definitely improves it because I think that's one of the sillier reasons to have Santa. Because honestly, I think what it does is tell the kids that you should behave well so that a guy will bring you stuff instead of they should behave well because it's the right way to behave. That is actually the most important life lesson. Behave well so that a guy will bring you stuff. Yeah. Don't you? Have you not lived? What is your occupation, sir? I'm a screenwriter and video producer. All right. And Alex, what is your occupation, if I may ask? I'm a lawyer. You're a lawyer. All right. So describe that Christmas in your household.

How many people came over? How many kids were there? We had our three nieces, their parents, one of our nephews and his mom, and then the two of us in Everest. And these nieces are from the Santa side or the non-Santa side? Actually, let me add to that list. And Alex's mom and dad.

So however that many makes. How many kids were there? Four, counting Everest. Four. Five, five actually. Five. Yeah, however that many makes. How many kids were there? Four, counting Everest. Four. Five. Five, actually. Five. Yeah, you're right.

And how many of them believe in Santa? How many of them don't believe in Santa? So, I think Liam, he's a four-year-old, so he believes in Santa. The oldest three nieces is the youngest. I believe she's 11 now. So, she's out of that gray area for sure. But I'm pretty sure we all still do the song and dance for her because she hasn't let on,

like Alex said, you, you don't, you hold onto that as long as you can to keep getting the Santa gifts. So I know she got a Santa. Let me just say that by the time it gets, by the time you get to 11, if you're still believing in Santa openly,

it's getting a little weird. It's actually, it's actually for her. It wasn't. And I mean, it was such a gradual thing that, like I said, everyone right now is just in this pretense that he exists. And that's actually one of the problems I have with it.

It's a total now it's a lie on both sides. And, you know, Alex said she herself had the same experience where she realized Santa was not real abruptly on a bus. Right. Probably continued pretending to believe for several years after that because they do fear they're not going to get gifts, which is another thing I don't like about it. You're just encouraging them to be dishonest with you. How so? Encouraging your kids to lie to you?

If a kid comes home and says, oh, I learned today on the bus that Santa's not real, you have two options. One, continue to lie to them. Right. Or two, come clean. Right. And if you come clean,

if they think that is what the result that they're going to get, they're going to make that calculation. The same one Alex did, the same one our nieces have made in the past. And they're going to say, maybe I'll just keep this to myself and hold out a little longer. So I keep getting those Santa gifts. Alex, when you weren't- Can I object? I'll allow it. I did not continue to pretend like I believed in Santa Claus. If we can check the record, I believe that is exactly what you said you did. One of you is lying.

Alex, I'll remind you you're under fake oath. But I don't think I did say that I continued to pretend like I believed in Santa Claus. I don't feel like going back and check the record. We don't actually keep a record. So I'm going to ask you again. When you found out on the bus that day that Santa is just something your parents said to you, first of all, and I remind you you're under fake oath, did you cry? No. All right.

Second of all, did you tell your parents what you had learned on the bus that day? I did. did you tell your parents what you had learned on the bus that day? I did. And third of all, did you then pretend to believe in Santa when it was clear that you knew the truth? No. In order to keep getting Santa? The only thing that I might have would have been for a younger person's sake. But not against my—my parents would have known because I remember asking my mom whether it was true or not. Right. Okay. Your Honor, her mom might still believe in Santa Claus. So I don't think that's, that's fair to say. I'm sure the conversation went, mom, I heard Santa Claus wasn't real. And then she threatened to go beat up some kid on the bus and reassured her that for sure Santa Claus was real. And maybe in kind of an underlying

way was hinting that she better continue to believe or she won't get the Santa gift. So in her mom's case, she might've actually encouraged her to continue that belief. I'm sorry. Did you guys meet when you were seven? How do you know what happened, sir? I know her mom pretty well. And this, I would say, Alex, you probably agree with me on that, right? No. In fact, what my mom said was, what I've always told you is Santa Claus is someone that loves you very much and gets you gifts. Um, I've heard that many times. Uh, yeah, that's true. Her, her mom, uh, has a little way around the straight up lie of Santa's a real man by saying, yeah. Is your mom also an attorney? When Andrew and I first got together, he agreed that Everest would get to be raised in the Santa Claus tradition.

So effectively, that was a lie that he seems to be so up against now. Your Honor, I— I will have order. I will ask the questions here. Shut your pie holes. Thank you very much, Bailiff Jesse. Bah pie hole. Andrew, did you enter into a verbal or written contract that you would raise your child in the tradition of believing in a thing that doesn't exist?

Verbal, yes. Written, no. We had a discussion about it, and I'm fairly fuzzy on it. And Alex actually had to remind me about it when I told her we were going to adjudicate this. And she said – she reminded me that we did have an oral contract about how we were going to raise our kids. But I do – I did a little bit of my own lawyering because I know Alex is going to play her lawyer card. And the contract cannot be altered unilaterally. And I didn't learn about the fact. No, this is true. I did not learn about the fact that Santa gets to give the largest, coolest gifts. I didn't know that they were

going to be unwrapped under the tree when the kids came down. So that illuminates the surprise. And those are things that were altered from the original oral contract that we had before we had kids, before we even got married. So you're saying that under the new order in this household, Santa gifts are no longer displayed on a revolving platform unwrapped, but indeed are wrapped and are also the best gift of the season. Is that so, Alex? No, no, no. So I think if I understand what he's saying is he's surprised that one Santa Claus gets to give the best gift. No one understands what he's saying, OK?

We can agree on that. We can stick with that. But I'm asking you this. Does Santa Claus in your – if we were to go forward and I were to find in your favor, would I be ruling on A, a continued belief in Santa Claus until an unspecified date in the future when your child takes a bus for the first time? And B, that Santa gives the best gifts? Yes, Santa gifts. The best, largest, the biggest gift?

Sure. Yes. So what was the Santa gift to Everest this year? Well, it hasn't happened yet. I mean, you know what I mean. Last year. Oh. Lawyers. I don't think he had a santa claus gift last year what like i said his grandma buys

him a lot of stuff and i think she just randomly labeled one of them santa gifts so last year it actually did not was not necessarily the coolest gift but that is the way alex wants it in the future what what do you want in the future alex if i'm if i'm going to find in your favor i'm going to ask you a series of questions and i just need to know what you see the program as being. First of all, belief in Santa, yes? Yes. Until what time? What triggers the disbelief?

When does the harsh revelation come? I'm going to let that come from his peers. From his peers. That could happen next year, you realize. What if it's a shirtless guy on the 49 Van Ness Mission? We might homeschool him so we can limit it. Believe me, if you do that, there's a lot of things you can get your kid to believe. Truth to be revealed by peers outside of your control, correct? Yes.

All right. When truth is revealed, you will either A, acknowledge that it has been a lie the entire time or you will – or what? You will use your mother's weird lawyerly non-denial denial? No. In fact, what I'll say is I've just done this because I loved you, but your dad did not want us to do this. I may be able to get behind this, okay? How many gifts – what's the ratio of Santa gifts to gifts from you guys? Santa Claus gives one. I expect we'll probably give five to six or so. Okay. But Santa Claus will give one gift per year.

Is that correct? Yeah. Whether or not your mother also writes from Santa on certain gifts? I won't allow her to do that. Oh, you won't. I'll be surprised if you can stop her from doing anything. All right. She's the first person in world history with control over her mother's behavior.

It may be. You know what? It may be a Christmas miracle. I don't know. All right. I think I understand what you want out of this. Andrew, the program you would like is as soon – if I were to find in your favor, you would, you would hang up your internet phone and immediately walk over to your 18 months old son and say, there is no Santa Claus.

Not that harshly, but it's a gradual reminder that whatever we're doing, if we're watching a Santa Claus movie, that, that it's pretend, which is the way that it was, it was given to me. So, because you don't know what, what age they really start to interpret and understand what, you know, what Santa Claus is. Right. But for me, it was always presented as we're going to watch a story. This is pretend. Same with Santa Claus decorations or gifts from my grandparents that say from Santa.

So when the two of you are cuddled up in your footie pajamas, drinking hot cocoa, watching Miracle on 34th Street, that's when you turn to your son and say, you know this is bullshit, right? Right before we start watching it. Before we start, this movie, Santa Claus is Coming to Town, deals with some mature themes. And I'd just like you to know. This is all bull. And puppets don't move on their own. And there is no island of misfit toys. Please excuse i have to paint the room the walls of your room black however there is a heat miser and he will destroy you with global warming in the next couple of years uh you should you should talk to jason

simms of huntsville alabama and enjoy his sadvent tree every year but uh you know it's not like that i really i really have a lot of Christmas cheer. I just would much prefer that it be around family and togetherness and thoughtfulness. I mean, Santa brings gifts, like I said, because it's what you want for Christmas.

And when you make that the focus of Christmas, especially for kids, that's all it becomes about. And I think they're missing out on the things that are beautiful about Christmas, which is, you know, being together with family and exchanging gifts with people that you love and actually know and getting gifts from people that love you and

actually know who you are. It's, I mean, that's the thing you're, you're teaching them. You're always teaching them their sponges. And I would like for him to absorb a message about Christmas other than you were so good that Santa's going to bring you some gifts this year. So it's a lot different from the sadness tree where he's trying to be sad. I really want Christmas to be a fun experience for everyone in the house. I would just prefer for it to be about, hey, grandma and grandpa are coming and we're going to get to eat a big feast and have fun and decorate the tree and all of those great things that I really do love about Christmas. But he's certainly not willing to forego gifts.

That's what his argument is saying. Let's not be materialistic and stuff. But you want to be materialistic. You just want credit for the materialism. You just want credit for the gifts, right? In that regard, yes. I do want credit for the gifts. One of the things that, like I said, was a shock to me is that Santa gets to bring the coolest gift.

And honestly, I think that's a great way to teach your kid not to be grateful for stuff because when the Xbox is a payment for being good all year from Santa as opposed to a gift they received because they're loved, it really – it makes it something that they think they deserve as opposed to something that was given to them out of love. I really hope, I really hope you're not getting an Xbox for your 18 month old. That's more a gift for you. Judging from his mom, he might not ever get one, but I mean, but growing up, like on a personal note, we had times where we did not have a lot of money. And so getting a gift like a bike, that's a big deal. And I recognize that as a big deal because, you know, I knew that as a big deal because, um, you know, I knew that it was my parents who were getting that for me and in whatever way that they were able to save the money for it. If you, if your kid just comes downstairs and, Oh, great. Santa brought me a box. And that's awesome. Cause my parents don't have enough money to buy me cool

stuff or sorry, a bike. And you know, my parents don't have enough money to buy me cool stuff. Then you're basically removing the gratefulness that they would have for you. I mean, who writes thank you Santa letters? Well, right. And that is, of course, the spirit of all gift giving is making sure that children understand that you had to make a lot of sacrifices and give away a lot of the money that you would have otherwise spent on a family vacation for their bicycles, right? I mean that might be a bonus if you're in that situation, which I hope we're not.

Yeah, you want to get credit. You want to get credit. Yeah, I want to get credit. And actually more than just getting credit, like I would rather his grandparents get credit for the gifts they give him as well instead of labeling them Santa. You want to look at your 18-month-old son. Thank them for the gifts them Santa. You want to look at your 18-month-old son. Thank them for the gifts. Right. You want to look at your 18-month-old son and say, I had to pack my own lunch for a month so I could get you this Xbox.

What the fuck did you get me, son? I mean if I have to have Santa, I want to give my son the bike and I want Santa to give him the helmet and the knee pads. I think that's fair. Well, I will say this. There are a lot of things that I regret on this very special anticipatory Christmas podcast. One of them is swearing as much as I've done. The other is openly mocking Christianity and all religion. These things do not reflect my accurate feelings about either you or the holiday itself.

I just got a little Christmas podcast fever. That's all. You over-wassled earlier today. I nogged it up a little bit too much and I went on a little Black Friday madness. Judge Hodgman was, as we say in the bailiffing profession, in his nogs. But I do think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. And I'm going to retire to my North Pole and I will tell you my decision in a moment. Can I say one last thing?

Oh, this is very unprecedented. You know this could cost you the case. She does have a JD from the Harvard Law School, so you might want to listen to her. Well, I am a Yale man, so I cannot actually hear the words that are coming out of her mouth. But go ahead. All right. So I looked up some statistics, and they did this interview of 500 elementary schools. And this is in the New York Times.

And all 500 of them had been told there was a Santa Claus, and they had come to the realization, however it was, that there was no Santa Claus. And not one of them were unhappy about the fact their parents had lied to them about santa claus i'm sorry are you gonna let her paraphrase this article instead of providing evidence i didn't even i didn't even hear his evidence i didn't even hear anything that was coming out of her mouth you just heard a sort of crimson crimson crimson crimson i heard i heard sort of like a stuffy Charlie Brown teacher voice like – No, no, no. I understand. There was a study. A lot of – there was a study.

A poll was taken. It was skewed. A lot of kids were lied to and said it didn't matter to them because their lives are OK now because they desperately want to believe that their parents are good people. I get it. No, I understand. I'm going to go back in my chambers and think it over. Bye. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Alex, what are you fighting for here? Really just his chance to have a magical belief,

like to have that same tradition, both his chance to have that and my chance to do the same thing, so like put him to bed that night with him to do the same things, like put him to bed that night with him to be excited. Because if you don't have Santa Claus, I don't know how Christmas is different than a birthday. Andrew, why are you taking that away from this poor, adorable 17-month-old? I mean, I can't even, I can't, I'm struggling with how I'm going to lie to him because he is adorable. And I know that at the moment he'll, his eyes will light up, but, but at the end of the day, I know I'm lying and

I'll have, uh, I'll be guilt ridden about that. And I don't, I don't know. I mean, I just don't know how I'm going to have to do it if, if the judge rules in that way, but it's, it's not going to be easy. And I, and honestly, there, there, she quoted studies, there are studies that say that parents get more enjoyment than the kids do out of Santa. So, you know, the idea that it's even a selfish thing to lie, it makes it even harder. But you know what, the first time he brings home a piece of artwork, I bet you say it's beautiful. And I bet you it's not. You know, if we want to get in dishonesty, there's a big difference between dishonesty that spares feelings versus dishonesty for the sake of your own amusement. I say there's value to that point.

Yeah, I mean, parenting is a lot about dishonesty. You know, we have to teach them certain lessons and we don't want them going out in the street. So we might lie in a way that, you know, protects their safety. Yeah, Krampus might be out there. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom. Well, this is a very difficult case because I try not to be moved purely by anecdotal evidence, including my own wife felt very strongly that our human child number one, the daughter who I will refer to only as Hajmina, should be raised with a belief in Santa Claus. Whereas I felt very much as you did, Andrew.

First of all, I don't ever remember actually believing in Santa Claus and I found it hard to imagine running a con on my own child. And I found it to be highly displeasurable to do so. But because – for a couple of reasons. One is you're lying to your so. But because – for a couple of reasons. One is you're lying to your child and that's just what it comes down to. Two is that if you want your child to experience faith in an incredible magical and unprovable creature who gives you – who rewards you for good behavior, there are many world religions that provide that and indeed one that is specifically honored on Christmas called Christianity.

And three, since you already have that, you have – why layer onto it a myth that is very charming but so absurd that even a child can easily see through it? Most children do not live in homes that have working chimneys. No human could fit down it. Anyone who has a simple grasp of math, which I obviously do not, can figure out that presents cannot be delivered to all the children of the world. And even if we only counted only the lucky Christian children of the world could not be delivered over a single night. And the moment you reach a certain level of competency, which I appreciate your dumb young baby doesn't have yet, the Santa myth falls apart right in front of your very eyes. And that's when you turn to your parents and you say, this is bull feces, is it not? Or that's what I said to my parents, I think. And your parents then have to say yes.

And in that yes, there is contained the admission that it has all been a lie. And for that reason, I was not in favor of this. And so we let Hajmina believe in Santa Claus. And then she eventually reached that point of comprehension and turned to my wife and said, some of my little friends say that Santa is not real. Is that true? They say it's mommy and daddy. And my wife said, do you want to know the truth really? Because she kind of had the sense that Hajmina had already made up her mind. And she said, yeah, I really do want to know the truth. And so my wife told her the truth. And do you know what happened?

My daughter went crazy. My wife fully expected Hajmina to go, I kind of had a feeling. And then they would have a little hug and drink a little Bailey's Irish cream together. But that is a fantasy even greater than the fantasy of Santa Claus. Kids believe what you tell them. And they will believe in Santa Claus. And they will believe in Santa Claus. And if your child might be as callous as you apparently were, Alex, when you learned the truth on the bus.

But in my daughter's case, and she is a rational, smart person, she really freaked out and burst into tears that lasted for a full hour. Utter trauma as though grieving for a dead friend. And this really bothered me because A, I don't like my child to suffer and B, I was at the Daily Show Christmas party at the time and had to go home early because my daughter was freaking out. So with child two, the male child whom we'll only call Hodge Manillo, I put my foot down and said no more of this. And indeed, we never really were very specific about the reality of Santa until he asked, at which point I said what the Civil War correspondent in the New York Sun said to Bailiff Jesse and Virginia alike that Santa is real in the sense that fictional characters are real. They are real in the way Batman is real to you, which is frankly with regard to my son more real than most other humans. It is someone that you believe in, someone that you care about and someone who affects you very deeply even though you appreciate they do not exist in the real world.

And he did not burst into horrible tears and seems to be OK with it and has, I may say, a leg up on his little friends because he knows something they don't. friends because he knows something they don't. So you could see that in many ways, I entered into this case utterly biased. And arguably, I should recuse myself and were this an actual court of non-fake law, I might. But I did not start this podcast in order to not tell people how to live their lives even though I've never met them before. is very little harm and you have a lot of fond memories uh about uh about santa and that you essentially i mean are you guys religious are you people of of meaningful faith does that play a big role in your life andrew has told me to say that we're spiritual he said it will it'll it'll make me very popular okay then actually Then actually – thank you. You actually – you don't need to say anything. You don't need to say anything.

You don't need to say anything because Andrew told you to say that you were spiritual. I automatically find in your favor, Alex. Santa it up. That was supposed to be sabotage. She wasn't supposed to say it was me who told her to say it. You were trying to sabotage her. Well, that's – I guess we've all learned a little Christmas lesson. No, I will not automatically find in your favor that does not behoove you, sir.

Because spiritual – saying you're spiritual is kind of one of those ways of trying to have everything at once. I actually think we're somewhere in that place where it's hard to say. Well, right, because you are – So that would be the easy way out. But instead we just choose to not answer yet. The Santa Claus thing you appreciate is just a rehearsal for the God thing, which is itself just a rehearsal for the death thing, right? They're all conversations you're going to have to have with the little Everest eventually. And so, you know, the death thing and the God thing we kind of have to deal with and the Santa Claus thing is the one where you can kind of opt out of it early, right?

Because we do have to come up with some explanation for death because it's going to happen. We do have to come up with some explanation for God or some honest answer that reflects how we feel about God as parents, which may or may not be easy to answer. But even if you are a totally secular person, it's so tied into the death thing that you got to have some answer for it. And the Santa Claus thing, that's the one you can kind of opt out of. You can go easy on that and just say, you know, I'm not going to deal with that particular fantasy. And therefore, I don't have to answer the hard question about it.

But I – sorry. To go back to my question, do you guys regularly – are you people of faith who regularly worship? We don't attend church. Do you have – and we don't have to get into it right now, but do you have a sense of what the answer will be to is there a God and what happens when I die? Are you on board with that? You know, we actually had – just this weekend talked to a friend whose kid has six-year-old twins and they were asked that question. They said some people believe and some people do not. Right.

What they should have said is to one twin, yes, there is a God, and then take the other twin and say, no, there isn't a God. And then watch what happens. Are you more or less on the same page of what you will say when that question comes up? Yeah, I think we are. Okay. Then I guess I could say you're spiritual people. I feel offended. Insofar as the Santa Claus question is itself a rehearsal for the God question and the death question,

and it is a big question that you both have to be on the same page about. And the difficulty of making this decision is that you are on completely opposite pages where you alex literally want to create an illusion that there is a man who is bringing a thing to your house in the middle of the night which is frankly as terrifying as it is magical. And Andrew, you literally want to say to your child, this does not exist. And I am not usually a big fan on this podcast of finding a middle ground. But in this issue, I think that it is necessary. And I think that a synthesis needs to be made between the two of these ideas insofar as when that time comes, if you are to instill the idea of Santa, introduce

Santa into the home, you will need to be able to set things up such that when the question comes, You need to be able to set things up such that when the question comes, whenever it does come, you will have an answer that you both feel comfortable with and you will be answering on behalf of a mass cultural delusion as opposed to your specific betrayal of a child year over year over year. Do you see what I'm saying? So what I would say is this. There are literal beads of sweat forming on Hodgman's head right now. I know. It's really hard. It's really difficult. I don't want to be a total Scrooge. Every fiber in my being wants me to order Santa out of your home, but you guys need to be on the same page. So therefore, here comes my ruling. I'm going to fine in favor of Alex, but I need – you guys need to be on the same page. So therefore, here comes my ruling. I'm going to find it in favor of Alex but I'm going to ask you to keep Santa reality

to a minimum by emphasizing not only the traditional Santa Claus myth but also exposing your child to the Sinterklaas myth of the Netherlands, as well as his weird colonial black slave friend, Black Peter, Svorta Peter, as well as the Krampus myth, as well as the Christ child myth of Austria and the Alpine countries, as well as the paganic origins of Santa in Odin and his eight-legged flying horse Sleipnir. I want you to encourage your child with a wink to enjoy all of the folktales around the mystical person who comes and brings things to your house. And as well, I'm going to order that the best gift not come from Santa in order to de-emphasize the importance of Santa.

Santa is a story. You and I and your husband know that, Alex. The child must be led to enjoy the story but not believe that the story is more important than Christmas itself. I would almost say that your child should leave out empty wooden shoes so they may be filled with cheeses and have that be by Santa. Take the power and the terror and the suspicion and the betrayal down to a reasonable level such that when your child asks about Santa and you tell the truth at that point, which I order you to do, and tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, your child will feel what unfortunately my daughter could not feel but my son can feel, a feeling of, yeah, I get it. I understand why this is happening and that I'm not mad at you for fooling me for seven years of my life. This has been a hard one, guys, but I think we're probably the best Christmas ever.

Wouldn't you agree? This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Alex, how are you feeling? Good. I actually thought that was a good compromise.

Andrew, how about you? I feel the same. I feel like I won a pretty big victory in just getting back the coolest gift credit. I feel a little sad for Andrew because he was so sad about lying to Everest. Yeah, it's not going to be better. I mean, it's going to be better. I'm still not going to enjoy the parts where I do have to, I don't know, figure out how to skirt around telling him that it is a myth. I don't know, figure out how to skirt around telling him that it is a myth. But I'm intrigued by the idea of telling him all of the different cultural versions. Yeah, you can do some research and that will be fun and that will help him understand.

But here's the thing. You mentioned before we lie all the time when we raise our kids. That's not true. When you start talking about kids not leaving – like lying to keep kids from running out into the street, you know there's no reason to lie in that case. You just say it's dangerous, right? But there is certainly a certain amount of lying by omission that happens in the sense that you don't necessarily sit your kids down and tell them where babies come from on day – on year two, right? You just avoid those conversations. I don't advise you to, sir, lie outright to your child. And if you are ever asked outright, you have to tell the truth.

But I think it's OK since it's important to your wife and I think it would be fun even for you, Scrooge, to avoid that conversation and instead offer a little bit more of the wide cultural tradition of Santa in order to keep it on a manageable level for a child. Because a child needs to learn ambiguity as much as – maybe not as much as they need to learn reading. But it's important. Can I ask you guys one last question? Sure. one last question? Sure. We're recording this from our

judicial studios in Long Island this week. And coincidentally, here in Long Island, I happen to have a sort of combination warehouse full of Krampusnacht,

Krampuskarten slash great business opportunity. And I'm wondering if you guys happen to have any excess capital that might help me distribute these carton across the United States as Krampus Noct becomes more and more popular here. If you'll send us your business plan, I think we'd be happy to look at it. Okay. Do you have a napkin, John? You notice how it was the screenwriter who jumped on that opportunity and not the attorney?

Her capital is my capital. That is true. Alex, Andrew, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast and happy holidays. Thank you guys. Good yule to you both. Support for the Judge John Hodgman podcast comes from audible.com, provider of digital audio books and more with more than 100,000 downloadable titles across all types of literature, including fiction, nonfiction, and periodicals. Audible suggests that Judge John listeners might enjoy I Am America and So Can You

by Stephen Colbert or Judge John Hodgman's own new book, That Is All. For a free audiobook of your choice and a free 30-day trial membership, go to audiblepodcast.com slash judgejohn. That was an intense decision, eh, Judge Hodgman? It was, and I do feel bad for all of my cursing and Satanism, basically. But I think it has something to do with the fact that my chambers this week is not actually at the North Pole. Sorry to break it to you, kids of the world. I don't actually have chambers at the North Pole.

I'm actually in a basement in Long Island City just like the real Santa Claus. Yeah, we're underneath the Creek and Cave Comedy Club here in Long Island City. The Creek and the Cave Comedy Club in Long Island City, specifically the cave, right? Yes. We're here with guest engineer Marcus, and he lives in a very small room that is covered with black the walls are covered with black drapes there is a what looks like a the the skull of a cow down here a horse a horse skull a ouija board a bunch of weird renfair swords and and like a serial killer a bracket chart serial killer versus or real serial serial killers versus fictional serial killers.

Absolutely. It is truly a very Anton LaVey Christmas down here. Never before have I visited so vivid a nightmare while recording this podcast. But we're very happy to be here and we're very grateful to the Cave in the Creek and specifically to the Cave. And Cave Comedy Radio. Cave Comedy Radio, a great podcast network. Let us use their studio. Let us use their studio.

Thank you very much. So take a listen to their stuff. Hey, let's clear out this docket. Fantastic. Jessica writes, I think my son Sam, age six, is playing fast and loose with the space-time continuum. To quote a conversation we had tonight, Sam, if the past and the future are the same, time is a circle. If the future is far away from the past, then time is moving forward in a line, adding more. My point is the past, present, and future are not in the same place.

Okay, this kid has too much of an appreciation for ambiguity. Like, this is too much. This is partially a recast of a conversation started in August. Sam asked me if animals had birthdays. I said that animals were born at a particular moment, but that humans are the only creatures that regard time. We talked about migrations and seasonal changes, and that animals clearly know day from night, but that nature doesn't regard past, present, and future the way humans do. That led to a whole conversation about how humans conceptualize time. Some people believe in time cycles like a circle, and past, present, future are more continuous or repeating.

Some people believe time is like a river with each moment distinct from the next. Some people believe that time is infinite realities. All possibilities are simultaneous and that whether you regard something as then, now, or next is a matter of what you're paying attention to and how much importance you give it. Anyway, so it turns out that he remembered all of that. Not sure what inspired this tonight, though, and the geographic location piece is all his own. Judge John Hodgman, part one, please help me resolve this with slash for my son.

What is time? And where, in quotes, is it? Part two, please help me with future such matters. Would it have been more appropriate to have just said, yes, animals have birthdays? Answer equals yes. I take it all back. I take it all back. This is not how parents and children should be talking to each other.

Sam, animals have birthdays. Santa Claus is real. He's a real guy who lives in the North Pole and brings you present. And time moves forward and not backward. It's too, your son's too young to be thinking about parallel dimensions. I never thought in my life I would ever say such a thing. But look, I admire your son's precociousness. But just, yeah, animals have birthdays, obviously. And you know what?

They have the most adorable birthday parties. Wow. I think in my imagination, Jessica and her son were lying on their backs on the sand at night on the beach. And her son just went, do you ever think there's just like a billion stars? I find it very surprising that this mother and son were able to send this in to the internet, considering that they live on a canoe with a tiger. Traveling itinerantly from island to island in the South Pacific. traveling itinerantly from island to island in the South Pacific.

If I had to guess what state they had asked these questions in, it would be Colorado, and it would be after the recent election. I think it's wonderful that you have these philosophical discussions with your son. If I knew what time was, I would happily answer the question. But I think what most humans need to understand is that no matter what time is, we only experience it in one direction. And that leads to death. How about that?

That's something you can tell your son. Next question. I talk about this kind of stuff with my twins all the time. You know, Cheech and Chong. And my daughter, Michelle Foucault. Okay, here we go. Here's something from Bradley. I live in London with my partner.

She was one of the Gamesmakers, or volunteers, in the London Olympic Games this year. During and after the Games, everyone praised the Gamesmakers, and they actually received the biggest cheers at the closing ceremony. Is this the Olympic Games or the Hunger Games? This is the Olympic Games, everyone praised the Gamesmakers, and they actually received the biggest cheers at the closing ceremony. Is this the Olympic Games or the Hunger Games? This is the Olympic Games, sir.

Gamesmakers is from the Hunger Games, isn't it? Is it really? Well, go on. Okay. Now, my partner had a great time being a Gamesmaker. Sure, because you got to kill all those kids. No, I think it's from the Olympic Games. Oh, okay. My mistake.

Okay. I have no problem with that. My problem is that it's been three months, and she still goes on about it every single day. Everything we talk about, no matter what it is about, ends up being about the games makers. In the past, she refused to use Facebook. Now she's on it constantly, checking the games makers page. Judge, I ask you to make a ruling to stop her from going on about it. It's over.

I love her very much, but I've heard enough about the games makers. I'm sorry, sir. I will not rule to deny your partner joy and happiness in her memories of what was obviously a very important and influential time in her life. You are a monster.

I'm sorry. I'll just put it that. I mean, she got to kill all those kids. And there was that moment where the two kids were going to have to kill each other, but they took poison instead, and then they married or something. Oh, no, no. Sorry. The Olympic Games.

I'm sorry. In the Olympic Games, was it that the two kids gave themselves poison, but then they were cured by the National Health Service? Isn't that what happened in the London Olympics? Look, we both know an Olympian. You introduced me to an Olympian, Donna. Donna. Whose last name I can never pronounce. Donna Vicalis?

Yeah. Yeah, Donna Vicalis. I love her so much, but I can never pronounce her last name. Yeah. A women's pentathlete. Modern pentathlete. Modern pentathlete. That's running, shooting, swimming, fencing, and?

Horse jumping. Horse jumping. Jumping over horses. Yes. And just talking with her, just speaking with her for a moment, for a little while, you get the sense of just what an overwhelming experience participating in the Olympics in any capacity is. It is truly an intense and overwhelming and stimulative experience. I have no surprise at all that several months now after the games are ended, that the friends that she made and the experiences she had at those games still move her. And I am surprised, if you love her that much, that you cannot appreciate that.

So I will not rule in your favor, sir. If anything, I will order you to read The Hunger Games so you can finally get a sense of what it's all about. Look, I went to the Olympics. I went to one event. Will you shut up about it already? Shut up. I saw Donna compete, and I've been talking about it ever since. Oh, the worst. And I was just sitting in the stands.

But you know what? I will not deny you your joy. Thank you, Judge Hodgman. And I'm sorry that I called you a monster, sir. Clearly, you take joy in being a monster. I don't want to deny anyone any joy. It is indeed the spirit of joy. Joy to the world.

Indeed. Hey, how about this? In the spirit of joy, thank you to our engineer, Marcus Parks. Thank you. And thank you to CaveComedyRadio.com and the Cave Comedy Radio Network for hosting us today. And we'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. Silent night, deadly night. I'm out.

Support for the Judge John Hodgman Podcast comes from Audible.com, provider of digital audiobooks and more. With more than 100,000 downloadable titles across all types of literature, including fiction, nonfiction, and periodicals. Audible suggests that Judge John listeners might enjoy I Am America and So Can You by Stephen Colbert or Judge John Hodgman's own book, That Is all. For a free audio book of your choice and a free 30-day trial membership, go to audiblepodcast.com slash judgejohn. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at GoSuperEgo.com.

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