Judge John Hodgman - Pup-Lick Defender

Episode Date: March 9, 2022

Annie files suit against her husband, Jeremy. When Jeremy does the dishes, he allows the family dog to lick plates and pots before continuing the cleaning. But, Annie thinks this practice is disgusting and would like him to stop. Who’s right? Who’s wrong?Thank you to Twitter User @bill_massey for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, follow us on Twitter for naming opportunities: @JesseThorn & @Hodgman. Or keep track using the Twitter hashtag #JJHoCaseNames.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne, and this week our case is public defender. Annie files suit against her husband, Jeremy. When Jeremy does the dishes, he lets the family dog lick the pots and plates before continuing with his cleaning. Annie thinks this practice is disgusting. She'd like him to stop. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. I just feel like I've got the ick. I don't want to be around him. I don't want him to touch me. I don't want him to kiss me. When you've seen a boy and got the ick, it doesn't go. It's caught you. It's taken over your body. It's just ick. I can't shake it off. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in.

Annie and Jeremy, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he lives in Brooklyn, New York,

where people don't have dishwashers, so he instead just hires one of those rentable herds of goats that eat the foliage on hillsides? I do. I do. Wow. I wish it were true. May I continue?

That's the dream, isn't it? Yeah. You may proceed, Judge Hodgman. I'm just thinking about goats. I know. I mean, I wish there were rentable goats, you know, because I've spent some time in rural communities around goats and with goats, and they're wonderful, smart, weird, ornery creatures that I just don't want to own.

Yeah. But I sure would rent one for a while. You can rent goats, Judge Hodgman, only by the herd to clear your hillside. Yeah. You can also rent access to goats. My wife for Christmas got me an hour with some therapy goats. Really? Yeah. Those goats,

that's why they're making that cash. That's why they're cash goats. Oh, thank you. Cash goats. Maxfundstore.com to help a young couple purchase a home in Australia through the medium of t-shirts that say cash goat on them. Cash goat. Check out our limited edition, limited availability t-shirt at maxfundstore.com by limited. I mean, if you're listening the day this came out, today's the last day. If you're listening tomorrow, too late for cash goat. Get over to maxfundstore.com. But we are not buying a house for a couple in Australia. We're settling a dispute between a couple in Nashville, Tennessee. Is that correct, couple? That is correct. That is where we are.

Jeremy and Annie, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment. In one of your favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this virtual courtroom? Jeremy, why don't you go first? Yeah. Is it Mr. Peanutbutter's girlfriend from the animated TV show BoJack Horseman? Mr. Peanutbutter's Girlfriend from BoJack Horseman, a great animated show. Co-created by our Max Fund colleague, Lisa Honowalt of Baby Geniuses.

Absolutely. And Baby Geniuses co-hosted by Emily Heller, another super genius superhero of creativity. Absolute legend in the game. And Mr. Peanutbutter being played, of course, by the inimitable Paul F. Tompkins. I did actually imitate Paul F. Tompkins to his face once and he did not like it. It did not go well. Don't even think about nimiting Paul F. Tompkins. It's interesting that you would choose that cartoon featuring Paul F. Tompkins. It's interesting that you would choose that cartoon featuring Paul F. Tompkins

instead of another cartoon in which Paul F. Tompkins plays a role. Dicktown, season one, bit.ly slash Dicktown. Dicktown, season two, premiering March the 3rd, 2022. Okay, enough plugs. I've put down BoJack Horseman.

Now, Annie, what is your guess? All right, the guess that I had had prepared was- Oh, because of dogs kissing. Was that what you were thinking, Jeremy? Totally. Peanut Butter's a dog and he kisses things and people. Right. Okay.

Yeah, he's a dog. Right. Got it. Okay. Annie, what's your guess? All right. The guess that I had come prepared with was Cujo, which doesn't feel right with licking and icky.

So I'm going to- Well, it gets a little icky. It does licking and icky. So I'm going to. Well, it gets a little icky. It does get a little icky. Kujo's kisses are more a violent bite to the neck. They're the wrong kind of kisses. A little rabies foam. A little rabies. A little soup sawn of rabies foam.

I love Kujo and I love that you two came prepped. So that's a good guess. You're going to try to sneak another one in? I was going to try to sneak another one in if I could be so bold, Judge. Let's see what happens. Upon reflection, I'm wondering if maybe it's a scene from Teenage Werewolf. Like I was a teenage werewolf. I was a teenage werewolf or teen wolf. Teen wolf.

Thank you. Is it a scene from Teen Wolf? Right. Because of werewolves licking and kissing and... And icky. Yeah, all guesses are wrong. Okay. I did not go the dog or werewolf route. I went the ick route.

The ick. The ick is a concept introduced upon this world by Leanne Amening on Love Island Season 6. Haven't talked about it for a year. Love Island Season 6, Leanne Amening on Love Island season six. Haven't talked about it for a year. Love Island season six, Leanne Amening broke up with Mike saying after a while, she just got the ick and there was nothing she could do about it. And she had to break up with him.

Love Island is a source of much vocabulary and wisdom, such as it is what it is, isn't it? And Mike himself is one of my favorite Love Islanders for coming up with one of the greatest phrases that I think of all the time. He was asked to come up with a code name for Luke T's storybook themed proposal to Shanice, Shanice Fudge. And Mike instantly said, I know, Operation Fairytale. And then he stopped and he said, where do I pluck this stuff from? It was incredible. This is all old news. I mean,

Love Island season six, Jeremy, Annie, have you checked it out? Not yet. Not yet. Yeah. I don't want to spoil anything more for you. Okay.

I'm writing it down though. It's old news. Next to Cash Goat. Yeah. It's from 2020, the before times. And people ask me, have I watched any Love Islands in season six?

I'm like, no, there is definitely a certain human who lives sometimes in our house who has tried to get me to watch more Love Islands. But I am a season six lifer because I love Nas. Nas is the greatest season sixer. And I'm going to tell you something. I don't know if this is going to work out.

But this morning I went on to Cameo. Nas has been on the program before. I went on to Cameo and I bought a Cameo asking Nas to explain what the ick is. And if by the time, if we get it before this goes to air, it's going to air right now. Hello to all the wonderful listeners of the Judge John Hodgman podcast. It's Naz Majeed here from Love Island 2020. I hope you're all doing well. Now, firstly, I just want to give a massive shout out to the judge himself, who is doing a phenomenal job with the podcast. Over 500 episodes, 43,000 followers on Instagram and counting.

I think we can all agree he's doing amazingly well. So once again, massive shout out to the judge, John Hodgman himself. Now, the topic of the day, a question that has been taken the internet by storm recently, and that is, what is the ick? The ick means the feeling of going off your crush. Someone you're crushing on, and all of a sudden, you see something about them, or they do something, or who knows, just something inside flips.

And all of a sudden, instead of the lick, it's the ick. You're like, gross. I got to be away from this person. I can't even be around them anymore. And we are talking about revulsion in this case, are we not? Annie, you come to this court to seek justice. Is that correct? You are the petitioner? I am. What is the justice you seek? Well, the justice I seek is that I would like to stop my husband to stop letting our dog, Eddie Van Howlin, lick the dishes clean. He contends that licking the dishes is the best way to get them clean. And I'll be honest with you, Judge.

I know you don't want more cases around how we do dishes. So to me, this is about. Right. I mean, this was one where it came over the transom and I was like, no more dishwashing cases. But then when I heard that this dog was licking the plates, I didn't even know that it was named Eddie Van Howlin at the time. When you say he contends that it's the best way to clean the plates, is the he here Jeremy or Eddie the dog? That's a good question, Jesse. Because I can see why Eddie the dog would make that contention.

Eddie's really motivated by food. And so he loves, loves it when Jeremy does the dishes. But to me, this is not as much about doing dishes as it is about respecting my ick, Judge, if I can use your term, and not making more work for me. How does it make it more work for you? Well, because I think that when the dog licks the bowls clean in a way that is 360 degrees of lick, then I want to feel confident that the dishes are cleaned to my degree of specificity. Right.

So I don't let me clarify something right away. Jeremy, you're letting the dog lick all the dishes. Well, I mean, I'm letting the dog lick some of the dishes, only a very small sort of subset of dishes, I would say. Right. You don't let them lick the chocolate bowls, right? Because that's bad for dogs. Yeah. I mean, in general, I would say that the kind of dishes that I let the dog lick

are those that have stuff kind of like baked on, you know? Yeah. And not usually like, not like plates usually, or, you know, like maybe a soup bowl or something. It's usually stuff that's like got- Serving bowls? Not typically. Like, I mean, I have been known to do that. What kind of plates do you have?

Usually what we're talking about here are pots and pans. Oh, pots and pans. The kinds of things that otherwise you might pre-soak before washing. That's exactly right. Okay. So you're replacing the pre-soak with dog saliva. And I'm not just replacing it. I'm enhancing it.

Go on. You have my attention. Well, first you put a little bit of Dawn onto some liver treats. That's a good idea. Then you tie a dobie sponge onto your dog's tongue. No, go on. What's the enhancement? So, you know, I think that I sort of have like a two-pass filter when I do it this way.

First pass, the dog can sort of like loosen things up a little bit, right? Then I take the pot or the pan, as it were, and I put it in the sink. And then I add some famous brand Castile soap onto a sponge. Okay. And then I sort of, you know, get that sponge going real good. And so, you know, I'd wash the pan and then maybe I'll let it soak a little bit more. And so once it's fully, you know, soaked, then I'll come back and I'll let it soak a little bit more. And so once, once it's fully, you know, soaked, then I'll come back and I'll, I'll rinse it out. So, um, it's already clean of the saliva

after that first pass from my perspective. Uh-huh. So I, what I was asking to clarify, and I think it has, uh, has been clarified is that when the dog licks the, the pans, you are not putting them then into a dishwasher. That's right, yeah. And indeed, some of these pieces may not be appropriate for the dishwasher. Exactly so. It's part of a dishwashing scheme, as it were.

Right. Oh, it were. Oh, it were. And Judge, I guess what I would add to this is that when the dog licks these bowls or dishes, and I did submit a video of him doing this before we even knew our case was going to be heard just after I submitted it. It is a comprehensive experience for the dog. part of this pot that is not licked, even if it was, we're talking the outside, the inside, every, and he's pushing this bowl or this pot all over the kitchen, making a huge amount of noise. Right. I'll stop you there, Ann, for a moment. Jennifer Marmer, do we have this video?

We do. Just one moment. Yeah. Let's take a look at Evan Howland. Do you also have a dog named bassist Michael Arthony? Oh my God, that would be great. Might be worth getting a second dog just for that. Might be worth it while we're dialing this up. Michael Arthony. Okay, here we go. All right.

Now, before you press play, please, Jennifer Marmer, what I'm going to describe is I can see Eddie Van Howland's fuzzy van head. He is about to dive into what looks like an enameled Dutch oven, right? It's a Le Creuset. Oh. Technically, it's a bouillabaisse pot. Sorry if I shouldn't name drop, but it's one of my beloved things. I'm glad we clarified those issues. Yes.

I thought it might be a large Dutch oven, but it turns out to be a Le Creuset bouillabaisse. Jesse, it's funny that you say that because I don't think Jeremy would ever let Eddie touch our Lodge frying pan, the cast iron, because he knows that that would be irreparable harm. So I just think it's interesting you mentioned that. Right. Lodge also makes high quality enameled cast iron. Sorry for the name drop. Don't ask Vice President Kamala Harris about that. Okay. So this is an enameled bouillabaisse bowl.

What was in this before Eddie Van Halen gets to go to work on it? What did you have that night? I don't know. That was a good one though. It was like really, yeah, it was really seared on there. I think that may have been some split pea soup. I love split pea soup. Let's see if Eddie Van Halen does as well.

Play. Press play. All right. We're going to have to clear that with ASCAP. Eddie can really sing. Yeah, Eddie is really going at it. And I think he'd already sort of taken a little bit of time on this. You know, I think it's already demonstrating substantial improvement over where it would have started.

All right. Now I'm seeing this thing start to move. Yeah, this thing's on a rubber mat of some kind because there's Eddie Van Hallen's water dish. And that, I mean, you know, that's a heavy, that's a heavy item because that is cast iron underneath that enamel.

He's moving that with just the power of his tongue is, is energetic and enthusiastic tongue. Yeah, that was pretty gross. And judge, the thing I just want to add in here about why the gross matters to me in this place, in this time, is because the kitchen is really my most comfortable space. I spend my quiet time in the morning making my to-do list and drinking my coffee. I cook almost every meal for my family, even though I'm, you know,

full-time professional person as well, it really is the place where I am happiest. And to have the gross and the ick in that space, it kind of yucks my yum. And I just, wait a minute. So you're, you're saying, you're saying that this not only taints the bouillabaisse pot, but the whole kitchen may as well have been licked at this point just yes you can't settle down and relax because you just all you can think of is dog tongue when you go into your own kitchen i certainly cannot relax while the pan is then soaking in the kitchen for like more than 24 hours because it requires multiple layers of soaking. And so.

Okay, well, in my defense. Okay, 24 hours, Jeremy, what's going on? I, okay, so in my defense, that would not be a typical length of a soak. It would not be 24 hours. So this is a specific soak? I think it may be possible, you know, at some point in time, you know, that maybe I kind of started soaking something and then went to bed and kind of forgot about it. Like maybe that's happened maybe more than once, like, you know, a few times. Don't be coy, Jeremy.

But it's the intent is to soak it maybe overnight and then finish it immediately the next morning. But definitely not 24 hours. If that ever happened, you know, that's totally an outlier. Jeremy, are you cooking these things in this bouillabaisse pot that Eddie gets to lick? No. Because Annie said she cooks all the meals. Yeah, yeah, she does, except for— So you're doing the dishes.

I make a few things. I can make tacos, for example. No, I'm not asking if you have any culinary skills. What I'm trying to say is this is part of the division of labor is that she made the split pea soup. Your job is to clean it up and you're offshoring half the job to your dog. And then you put it in the sink, run water in it and decide, I'm done for now. I'll come back to this tomorrow. Is this what I'm understanding? in it and decide, I'm done for now. I'll come back to this tomorrow. Is this what I'm understanding? Well, that's roughly correct. But in my defense, I'm also adding soap to it.

Right. And you're also in your defense, because this is stated in the evidence, you send a picture of a before and after of the pot before it has been licked and after it has been licked. Yeah. And you say, this shows how effective the dog is at cleaning this pot. He enjoys it. And his assistant saves both water and elbow grease. Not to mention the fact that I totally snuck this dish to him and Annie never noticed.

So clearly she has suffered no damages, psychological or otherwise from his enjoyment. Wow. Okay. This is a good point. This is what we call a gas licking. Wow. Okay. This is what we call gas licking. And Eddie is in fact a good boy

and too cute to resist. There's a wonderful photo of Eddie here with a little ball in his mouth and doing a little leap of joy. The leap of joy is a repeating gif or jif. I don't want to fight about it. And he's leaping away from a house,

I think, trying to escape this family and having a great time. He seems like a very good boy. Annie, we have been in contact before with your family, correct? This is not the first time a dispute has emerged from your home? Correct.

To be brought? What was the nature of the dispute? We've actually, there technically have been three total emerged from your home? Correct. What was the nature of the dispute? We've actually, there are technically have been three total before you. One, which was dismissed altogether about me wanting my husband to read a book. And you told me I couldn't make him take in culture that he didn't want to. And that was fair. No forced culture. No forced culture, which is fair. But you heard on the docket a case that our daughter brought against us at the beginning of COVID-ish. And we were bickering a lot. Oh, yes.

I have it here, actually. It was from, may I say the name, Amelia? Oh, yeah. It would make her day if you said it. I'll say it again then. Amelia. Amelia. My name is Amelia.

I am, at the time, nine years Amelia, my name is Amelia. I am at the time nine years old. How old is she now? 35. This podcast has been going for a long time. She'll be 11 in a month. Oh, happy birthday in advance, Amelia. During COVID-19, my parents are bickering a lot over meaningless things because we were cooped up together. Oh, no wonder Eddie wanted to escape that house. Here is one example of a meaningless thing. My dad wants sliced pickles for putting on hamburgers. My mom says the sliced pickles taste different. Also, she says that buying whole pickles is better because you can just slice them or spear them. My dad says he just wants normal pickles that normal people eat.

They also bicker about my dad's water schemes. He freezes water and puts it in insulated cups. Also, my mom uses the word task instead of chore. Please tell my parents to stop bickering about meaningless things. And how did I rule? You're ruling what's clear, sir. Stop bickering. Be nice to each other.

And so we followed through. I mean, rather than bickering about the dishes, she just took me to court instead. Yeah, well, I mean, bickering does not dishes, she just took me to court instead. Yeah, well, I mean, bickering does not mean never have another dispute. I think it just means don't snipe at each other

over meaningless things like pickles. We do have like eight jars of pickles now, Judge. So all the pickle needs are met. Way too many. By the variety of Thorn Hills.

Why don't you just eat pickles like a normal person does and finish them off? Amelia is your daughter? Yeah. Amelia, I know that you pickles like a normal person does and finish them off. Amelia is your daughter? Yeah. Amelia, I know that you sent me a message that I have not listened to yet. I will listen to it toward the end of the, once I come back from my chambers. I want you to know that you're absolutely correct, Amelia.

You and Eddie Van Howlin got to make a joyful leap out of that house as soon as possible. At least everyone takes a break from each other. Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor. We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, Boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In.

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And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. That's J-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. All right, let's get back to this. Annie, do you have an aversion to dogs?

Did you have dogs before Eddie Van Halen? Oh, yes, my whole life. Since I think we got our first dog when I was five. And with the exception of college and, you know, a little bit of, but even when I graduated from college, one of the first things I did was I adopted a dog. So I've had dogs. Of course, you never allowed yourself to be licked by a dog except for that one time. And then you had to burn off the spot and get a skin graft. Definitely face kisses are not part of my love language, but I do adore this dog and he's, you know, a great part of our family. And I want him to be happy. I just think he can be happy in a way that isn't gross. To you.

What about Amelia? Is this gross to Amelia? Or is this the subject of the secret message that I'm going to unveil later? Well, I, if you, if you, I want to. I'm seeing a nod. I'm seeing a nod. Yeah. No, don't, don't answer the question.

Yeah. I honestly, until like 10 PM last night, I didn't know, to be honest, what her opinion was. I was trying and I'll- Annie, we have a gag order. Please shut your pipe. I'm piped. I hold shut. It's been a long time.

Brought it back. But speaking of gagging, you see this dog licking these plates. What brings this issue to a head now? Has it gotten worse? How long have you been living with this and why are you bringing it to our attention at this time? So our dog that we had before Eddie, I think Jeremy may have occasionally let her like pots and pans. I can't quite recall. She passed away at the very beginning of COVID. And so, yeah, she is missed and she was an amazing, amazing dog.

One thing I want to share with you about Eddie is that Eddie, he's a rescue. And we don't know everything. Thank you. We like to recycle and reduce, reuse. And we don't know everything about his history before we got him. Reduce and reuse dogs. Right? Be efficient.

If you're talking efficiency, I feel like that's just an argument in my favor. Jeremy, shut your pie hole. Yeah, that's right. Twice in one episode, Judge Hodgman. It's been 18 months probably. Yeah. Twice in one episode.

Double pie hole in one ep. Equal opportunity. And because Eddie has, he... You don't know a lot about Eddie's past. But we do know that he wasn't treated well. Right. And he may have licked a man to death. It's possible his original owners were

a Le Creuset Bouillabaisse and a Lodge Dutch oven. We can't rule it out. When a Dutch oven and a Bouillabaisse pot a large Dutch oven. We can't rule it out. When a Dutch oven and a bouillabaisse pot love each other very much, they get stacked together for a period of time and then a puppy comes out. No border can keep them apart. Let's cut to the chase here, Annie. What are you concerned about? What's the secret in his past?

He has a history of bad behavior. And one of the pieces of evidence that I submitted is a process we had to go through after he bit someone. And we are... Oh my goodness. Yeah. He is a good dog, but he needs discipline. And nobody has been more focused on this than Jeremy. Jeremy has been patient and loving and kind with the dog and really helped him work on controlling himself. He's been much, much better. But we have to be very careful with Eddie around food and discipline and structure.

And he has a tendency to get underfoot anyway. He's a bit of a doofus. And so I think sometimes the best way to show him that we love him is with boundaries and keeping the kitchen a place where he's not underfoot and he's not continuing to associate food with like kind of wild erratic behavior. I see that this piece of evidence he submitted is a rabies observation report. Eddie was kept under observation for 10 days. He was quarantined.

To make sure he wasn't going to go Cujo on anybody again. Cujo, exactly. It all comes back to Cujo. And you're saying that if he's allowed to eat human food, it's just one step before he feels he's allowed to eat human. I hadn't really taken it that far, Judge. I was thinking more if he's allowed to have undisciplined access to human food, it teaches him to, like, I think he needs to be in a clear sit he can have scraps but they need to be in his bowl objection overruled the situation you're imagining is let for example when i go to prospect park here in new york when springtime comes and i usually am

carrying around my dirty dutch ovens because i like to air them out before i clean them if eddie were visiting and were off leash hours on saturday morning he might he might see around my dirty Dutch ovens because I like to air them out before I clean them. If Eddie were visiting and we're off leash hours on Saturday morning, he might, he might see me carrying around my enameled cast iron Dutch oven and make a beeline for me and maybe try to take me out first in order to get my sweet, sweet Dutch oven meat. That's it. And in addition to that scenario, which comes up a lot here in Nashville, is that the first couple of times he was really aggressive with somebody in the house was around food and around people reaching for food, et cetera.

And I just want the kitchen to be a very neutral space for him so that he's not encouraging. How long has he had unfettered access to Dutch ovens? Excuse me, bouillabaisse pots. So here's the thing about that is that I always make him act like he's getting food by giving him a command to sit. And then I give him the Dutch oven or whatever it is at his food station, which, Judge, I think as you saw in the evidence earlier,

the pot was like right there at his food station, which judge, I think, as you saw in the evidence earlier, the pot was like right there at the food station. So from the perspective of the dog, it's, this isn't like, I'm just, I'm not just throwing Dutch ovens around the house and just say, go at it. Um, right. These are part of like a normal like cycle of like, he's doing what he's supposed to do. And then he gets the thing. Dutch oven throwing sounds like it would be a pretty good state fair sport, like cast iron pan throwing. Yeah. So you're saying from Eddie's points of view, it's like regular mealtime, but oh boy, I'm getting that heavy dish. Yeah, exactly. And also just like a quick elaboration is I definitely did this with our other dog. But you managed to keep it a secret. Right. So in the

before times, Annie would travel, her job was to travel for work. Um, and so I would be home with Amelia and, uh, at the time Dahlia the dog. And I would, if I was using any kind of pan, um, I would, I would let her lick it and then I would clean it by the time that Annie got home. Annie never knew. Yeah. Either she never knew or I maybe, you know, let it soak too long and she saw it in the sink and didn she never knew or I maybe, you know, let it soak too long and she saw it in the sink and didn't realize that it had been, you know, licked. Yeah. She saw that it was over soaked, but she didn't never knew that it was pre licked. Right. It's making me want to go through and wash every single dish in the dishwasher. Annie, I understand what you're

saying with regard to trying to safeguard humans around Eddie and make sure that Eddie knows the proper boundaries. And that this is somehow like truly, truly. Is this your real concern or is it just the ick? No, my biggest concern is definitely the ick. It feels to me like you're trotting out a rabies observation report because you don't trust this court to understand that sometimes the ick is just the ick oh no i definitely for me the the top two priorities are the ick and that it's making more work for me because these the dishes will soak for a long time or i'm not confident at all that jeremy's cleaning them enough i only brought up the the dog biting because i think that if we

frame this in terms of like the reason we do it is because we love the dog, then it's more of a response. You're trying to, you're trying, you're playing a game with me and I don't appreciate games. I'm sorry, sir. I mean,

I hope, I hope that Eddie is happy and doesn't bite anyone. And I want, but let's just keep this to first principles here because you really, now I feel like you, you led me down a primrose path and all the way around what your central issue is, which is obviously the ick and B, that this is making more work for you.

And here I want to question you about this. It sounds to me like if there were no dog in the equation, Jeremy would probably let those dishes soak overnight anyway. The dog licking has nothing to do with Jeremy's habit of throwing things in the sink, filling Jeremy would probably let those dishes soak overnight anyway. The dog licking has nothing to do with Jeremy's habit of throwing things in the sink, filling them full of water and deciding that it's done for now and going away until maybe forever until someone does it for him. Yes or no, Annie? Oh, absolutely.

Yes. If I order him not to let the dog lick the pans, those pans could very well easily stay in the sink. They'll be soaking. They'll still leave that work for you no matter what. That's true. Next question. Have you ever, do you have evidence, aside from the knowledge these pans have been licked by a dog, do you have evidence that Jeremy is not a competent cleaner of pots and pans in other ways?

cleaner of pots and pans in other ways, crusted food, uh, greasiness, uh, anything that hasn't up to your snuff aside from knowing that the dog licked them. I'm going to answer that. Honestly,

judge. No, I appreciate that. You've stopped playing games with me. If I may judge, um, I think that, so,

um, I like really fixate on trying to get the pots and pans really, really clean. And so that's sometimes when I let it soak, I think it's not up to my standards yet. And I'm like, I'm going to just give it another pass. So I think that maybe somebody who wasn't as exacting on this front would not even go through the overnight soak. And, you know, they might just say that's good enough and let it go. And so I feel like I'm actually making the pot cleaner than ever, going the extra distance to make sure it's super clean. But if you're not doing the sides and the outside with like scalding hot water, there's just like a layer of slime. Oh, well, Annie, this is what I was asking you about. Do you not do the sides? Jeremy, do you not do the sides jeremy do you just

do the interior no i do i do the whole thing i know i don't soak the sides uh because i'm not sure how i would but that's an interesting thought you'd fill it all the way up to the top there's no there's no food accumulation on the sides if you are cooking on the outside of your bouillabaisse pan uh check your instruction booklet primarily Primarily used for cooking inside. Stuff does spill out though. And I always make sure to, you know, to clean it. So. It doesn't sound like it because Annie is saying that sometimes the sides are tacky or greasy or they have residue, right Annie? Yes or no? I'm saying I don't have confidence that he's scrubbing them with scalding hot water. I think he's very focused on these little bits of grit on the bottom of the pan.

Do you not have confidence because you have experienced times when you've reached for that bouillabaisse pot and you come off and you like drop it because your hands are all bouillabaisse-y? Or do you feel like you don't have confidence because you know he's letting that dog lick the pot and the whole thing should just be thrown down the well?

Annie, if he were not letting the dog lick the pot, would you be satisfied with how clean the dishes are? Yes. Interesting. Would you say that it's primarily psychological? It might be. It might be, but the kitchen is my favorite room and I'm the caretaker for this family. I make a lot of concessions. Can't I have a concession in my favorite room? One room that isn't licked up by a dog? I understand. Yeah. Yeah. Jeremy, what does it mean to you to let Eddie eat off these pans and pots?

Why are you doing this? I mean, set aside efficiency arguments. If I say you can't do it anymore, how would you feel? You know, I would feel bad for Eddie because I love the dog. You know, I would feel bad for Eddie because I love the dog. And, you know, it's a little thing you can do for the dog that the dog appreciates. And you can tell he appreciates it. It's like giving him a little it's it's like a free treat for the dog. Basically, I don't have to buy any.

Do you make the dog pay for its other treats? It's free to us. He has to pay for all his treats in a sense in that he has to perform some action before getting it. And in this case, I'm training him. He's not a cash goat. He does not have, he's not rolling in money. He can only pay in doggy kisses and rolling over and fetching,

which I haven't quite gotten him to fetch yet, but he's very good at sitting and staying, et cetera. A dog's currency is barter, emotional barter. They don't have cash like goats. Yeah. So you would feel bad for Eddie? I would feel bad for Eddie. It's, and you know, not to bring back the rabies report, but I am able to use this as another point to actually train the dog, um, and reinforce behavior because I can cause him to sit and stay again as I, as I give this to him. And so I'm constantly training, not constantly, but I'm

frequently taking on the burden of teaching him and training him. And so to me, it's just a, you know, it's just a natural point in which that, that works out. So you're suggesting that every dog in the world who has not been trained with a dirty bouillabaisse pot is a ticking time bomb, a death machine ready to go. They didn't get the bouillabaisse treatment. Not, not every dog, but you know, depending on their background. If they lived in a house with, like, Booyah-based pots flying all over the place or something, then yeah. I feel like you're playing games with me, too, Jeremy.

Coming up with training schemes to justify licking schemes, to justify emotional schemes, to justify... You'll feel bad for Eddie. Eddie would feel bad. I'm sure for a long time, Eddie would wonder what happened to heavy bowl. Maybe Eddie will never forget be permanently traumatized. You know, the truth is he's not the smartest dog.

And so I think he probably would forget pretty quickly. He's already forgotten. Do you get pleasure out of watching Eddie lick these pots? Yeah, I get pleasure out of it. I don't sit there and watch him the whole time, though. It's like a Mary Poppins scene. When Eddie's licking that pot, you're dancing around the kitchen singing Informer by Snow. We all heard the tape.

I enjoy the act of giving it to him. I don't enjoy the act of watching him do it, if that makes sense. I like that I can give him this thing. Yeah. All right. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I'm going to get sprayed down with Purell for an hour before I come back and talk to you dog saliva soaked litigants again and offer you my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jeremy, how are you feeling about your chances? I'm not feeling great.

I can understand Annie's feelings about the ick, which is a thing I learned about, and I understand. But I do wonder if only I would just do a better job of not revealing the fact that I'm doing this to her and getting it clean and dried before she sees it, then she would never know. Annie, how do you feel? I don't know. I'm, you know, I'm so humble to how many times I've listened to this show and feel so confident that I know what the right ruling is. And then the judge comes up with

something that's truly the in-between that both litigants need to hear. So I'm kind of looking forward to hearing that. But I do think we share a preference for tidy and a preference for de-icking. And I think it's okay to ask for the things that give you a little joy and, and, and have your family, you know, accommodate that. So I'm hopeful. Have either of you guys ever accidentally French kissed a dog? Yes. Eddie Van Halen, the day I first met him, he came up to me and the rescue person had the dog on the leash and the dog came up. I mean, not, there was definitely tongue on tongue. I mean, not full like French kiss, but there was definitely tongue on tongue. I mean, not full like French kiss, but there was definitely tongue on tongue. Yeah, that happens sometimes because it's like it's licking your face and you're laughing

because it licks your face. And then I go, oh, that's exactly right. Oh, no, I French kiss the dog. That's exactly right. I wrote the check to the adoption shelter that second. Well, there's no going back now. The rescue person said, be careful. This dog is not good around men. And so I came up to him and he immediately started licking me. And then

I just lay on the ground and he just like started licking like right on my mouth. And I'm like, all right, great. And so, yeah, I have. You can't not adopt this dog. You're spit sisters. Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment. Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience,

one you have no choice but to embrace, because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-R.

Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah! We are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast, and my friend Judge John Hodgman has a new television program. Yes, Jesse, that's right. It's season two of Dicktown continues Thursday, March 10th. We have episodes 203 and 204 airing at 10 p.m. on FXX on March 10th. We have episodes 203 and 204

airing at 10 p.m. on FXX on March 10th, then streaming on Who the next day. Ooh, these are some good episodes here. We've got special guest Amy Mann as a hot air balloonist. We also have the return of Amy Sedaris, plus Janie Haddad-Tom tompkins and paget brewster

in our big uh murder mystery party episode which also features the debut of actor jean david fantome as the mysterious belgian boy detective pon pon with an original song by John Flansburg of They Might Be Giants. Dicktown, that's what we called our TV show. Season two continues Thursday, March 10th and every Thursday in March at 10 p.m. on FXX and then on Hulu the next day. And of course, season one of Dicktown is available for you now at bit.ly slash D-I-C-K-T-O-W-N. Jesse, what do you have going on in the future? Well, Judge Hodgman, as you know,

I hired a new guy in the Put This On Shop. B-b-b-b-b-Brett! Yeah, we're talking about Brett, the guy with his own cassette tape label. Very serious about Brett, Judge Hodgman. How can it get cooler than having your own cassette label and then working for Put This On Shop, putting cool things on a shop?

He's got a band where he sings like this brett sounds incredibly cool you're lucky to have him yeah he's a great guy and he's ready to ship you things so uh since we're back we were sort of on hiatus for a couple months there since we're back use the code back and almost anything in the store will ship to you for free. Anything but like the biggest things. You know, there's a few giant things or if you're overseas, but basically everything in the store will ship to you for free with the code BACK. B-A-C-K. So go to putthisonshop.com. We got Yo! MTV wraps cards if that's what you need. Do you have an ancient Roman coin tie bar?

Yeah, it's really cool too. That's really cool. I see those loafers that I liked sold out though. You got to get on it. These are one of a kind items at putthisonshop.com. Yeah, it's really cool too. That's really cool. I see those loafers that I liked sold out though. You got to get on it. These are one of a kind items at putthisonshop.com. Yeah. There's something perfect for a gift for everyone in your life, including yourself. Putthisonshop.com and use the code back. We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. Annie, I appreciate that you and Jeremy are longtime listeners of the podcast, that I've meted out a certain amount of justice indirectly to you and your family before. I'm grateful. Thank you. You've been wonderful guests, great litigants, but you played some games with me, Annie. You played some games. And I'm not saying this to make you feel bad. You went down this serious issue about this dog that you love having a history that makes it challenging for him to be around humans safely all the time. I admire you for taking on a dog that is a challenge.

Not everyone would. I admire you, Jeremy, for tongue kissing a dog that dislikes men in their schemes by nature, but somehow has found a way to love and tongue kiss you. That's great, but I don't think that it is relevant to the case, or at least not nearly as pertinent, Annie, as the ick. Now we know from Love Island that the ick speaks to a romantic relationship that just you flip on it. I don't think that there was ever a time when you, Annie, had a crush on the dog licking the pots and then suddenly you turned. I am co-opting the term from Love Island and then I will return it to Love Island where it belongs. Only to say that once

the ick hits, whenever it is, as Leanne said, you cannot get rid of the ick. And that is a very compelling piece of evidence, far more so than any rabies report, though I'm always excited to get a rabies report. That is an image that we will not put on the Judge John Hondred Instagram because it is full of your personal details. Thank you, sir. No desire to dox you guys or Eddie, Thank you, sir. Thank you, Judge. No desire to dox you guys or Eddie. But we will, of course, put all of the wonderful photos and images of Eddie on the show page at MaximumFun.org and as well at Judge John Hodgman on Instagram. But simply saying, I can't feel comfortable knowing that the dog has licked the pots and pans should be something that Jeremy should take

very seriously because Jeremy, it is wonderful that you want to take care of this dog and kiss it and sing Canadian arguable reggae rap songs to it. It's wonderful. I appreciate that. And I can see how much fun Eddie takes in licking that Booyah bass pot. It's a delight for him. I accept that it is not adverse to his training. I will not accept that it is essential to his training as you tried to make an argument. And if you were the only one living in this house, I would see nothing wrong with it. People I know let their dogs clean their plates all of the time. And I dine in their houses and I'm okay with it because it's their houses. But if it were my house, no. Well, I would say this with this exception, if they want to lick a plate and then

that thing goes in a dishwasher, a good dishwasher, then I have no problem with it. But my Dutch ovens, my pots and pans, no, I can't have a dog licking that as much as that dog might like it. Because after all, cast iron retains heat for a long time you're going to burn that dog's tongue off you ever think of that jeremy the fact is that by the time you let that thing cool to the point that eddie can lick up the food detritus you have made cleaning that thing that much harder if you dump it out into the garbage disposal or whatever, or you wipe it out with water right away, even when it's still warm and the food is still pliable, for lack of a better term, you're in 70% of the way to clean. Letting a Dutch oven cool to the point that a dog can lick it, you've made your job. You've gotten no efficiency benefit. And I'm going to say this too. Again,

if Annie didn't have a problem with it, go for it. Have fun. But Annie does have a problem with it. You are giving something to Eddie because you love Eddie, right? I think it's true that you also love Annie. It is very true. In fact, I do indeed love her more than the dog. Well, I'm not asking you to say that, but that's very nice of you to say. Appreciate that, Ben. I can pick a favorite. I had no doubt.

It's a different kind of love and it's intense in both directions, of course. And giving something to Eddie gives you a lot of pleasure. But what you are giving to Eddie detracts from Annie's pleasure. Whereas if you stopped doing what you are doing, if you stopped feeding Eddie from the pots and pans and the boobies, bowls and everything else, then Annie would be happy. Now you're a generous person. And sometimes people who love to give things don't always appreciate that the absence of something can also be a gift. The removal of a stimulus we would call negative reinforcement as opposed to giving a treat, removing something annoying can be a tremendous gift. It would be to Annie in this case.

In a scenario in which there is a large industry devoted to things you can give to Eddie that will make Eddie really happy. All kinds of gnawing toys and old. I don't even say the disgusting. When I go into the pet store, like 60% of the pet store is devoted to big bins of dried out parts that you're supposed to give to a dog. Oh, he has some. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like there are so many things you can give to a dog.

As a cat person, I'm disgusted because like I get one wall of cat treats and you've got a whole freezer full of bone broths and things that you can and cakes special cakes you can give to a dog like cake like birthday cakes you give to a dog that are I don't know what they are ground up parts of things I you have lots of opportunities to delight Eddie with treats and attention. It is so easy for you to cease this because I don't think it helps your, your pans get clear for the reason that I said, and it also just grosses your wife out. Sorry. Now let's hear what Amelia had to say before, before and see if she agrees with me or not. Can you play it for me? Jennifer Marmer.

Hello, judge John Hodgman. This is Amelia, and my parents are going to be on a case in your court. I wanted to say that I kind of favor mom in this case because it is really, really, really gross when dad lets Eddie lick the pots and then lets them sit in the sink. And it's just a bunch of mucky, spitty, goopy water. And also, thank you so much for doing the show. It's really impactful on us. Thank you. Thank you, Amelia.

I didn't know it was going to go that way. I thought Amelia might take your side. She might love Eddie and want him to have that treat. But that's goopy icky water. I'm sorry, Jeremy. Don't tell me that you put a dog licked bowl and then fill it up with gray water and a little bit of Castile soap. You're not doing the dishes. You're making a gross bit of Castile soap. You're not doing the dishes. You're making

a gross potion. My ruling stands. I rule in favor of Annie. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jeremy, you've been well scolded. How do you feel? I feel all right. I kind of saw which way the winds were blowing here. And I'm glad to learn about the ick. And I understand this would be a gift to Annie that I can give for free.

And I'll find some other way to reward the dog. Yeah, like some kind of special treat for dogs. We have some treats that- We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. After the show, we'll Google special treat for dogs and see if anyone sells that. Annie, how are you feeling? I feel wonderful because one of the things that I really heard in the judges ruling was also a reminder to me, implicit, that it's okay to just say this is gross and I don't like it and please don't do it, which I think is a reminder to a lot of people that you don't have to have a long case in your favor. You can just have a preference

and that has its own merit. So I appreciate that reminder as well. And I'm really looking forward to not having to think about whether my husband is sneakily spitting up the dishes behind my back. Jeremy, Annie, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I look forward to French kissing your dog. You're welcome. You're always welcome, Jesse. Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books. In a moment, we'll dispense some swift justice. Our thanks first to Twitter user at Bill underscore Massey for naming this week's episode Public Defender. If you want to name a future episode, follow us on Twitter for naming opportunities at Hodgman at Jesse Thorne. While you're there, you can also hashtag your Judge John Hodgman

tweets, hashtag JJHO. I like to hear what people have to say about a case. Me too. Sound off in the comments. Smash that subscribe button, hashtag JJHO. Join the conversation on the Maximum Fun subreddit. That's MaximumFun.reddit.com. Evidence and photos from our show are posted on our Instagram account. That's Instagram dot com slash Judge John Hodgman. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer, our editor Valerie Moffitt. Now, Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment. Vicky says, My husband and I are both writers, but we don't read each other's work. Please order everyone to stop telling us we should be reading the other one's writing.

Oh, so ordered. I mean, here's what I have to say. If your partner is a writer, don't force them to read your work. But if your partner is a writer, you should offer to read their work. That's true. I think whether that person is your partner or another human being. Don't force people to read your work. You should offer, and if it's not important to them, they say, no, that's fine. And for the rest of you out there, it's none of your business. Whew, that's Swift Justice. We are still taking your vehicle disputes.

Let us know if you have a dispute about a car, bus, train, plane, boat, Zeppelin, hot air balloon, or any other mode of transport. Jesse, I've added to the list gondolas. Oh. Both the boats and the hanging gondola trams, you know? Jesse Thorne, one of your greatest tweets of all time was about gondola emojis. Yeah. Can you replicate it for me?

Quote, how many types of gondolas should we have? End quote. For text messages? Yes, for text messages. At least, people got grumpy at me. And one is a suspended monorail. They're all gondolas. Any kind of gondola, either a Venetian boat style or a suspended monorail style. And of course, we're here to hear all of your disputes on any subject. Doesn't have to be all those.

Just let me have them at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. Once again, that's MaximumFun.org slash JJHO, period. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. MaximumFun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Audience supported.