Judge John Hodgman - Seating Arraignment

Episode Date: May 8, 2013

Chris brings the case against his sister-in-law, Jenna. For many years, their extended family has had kids and adults tables at holiday gatherings. Chris thinks that since the kids are all grown up, they should abandon the kids table. Jenna thinks the table should retain its sovereignty. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the seating arraignment. Chris brings the case against his sister-in-law, Jenna. For many years, their extended family has had both kids and adults tables at holiday gatherings. Chris thinks that since the kids are now all grown up, they should abandon the kids table. Jenna thinks the table should retain its sovereignty. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Behold, a dream came to me in the night, and the Lord did shew all this to me. And in my dream the Lord was a shadow that walked behind the rose, and he spoke to me in the words he used to our older brothers years ago. He is much displeased with this sacrifice. And the Lord did say, Have I not given you a table for children, that you might sacrifice there? And have I not shewn you favor?

But this man has made a blasphemy within me, and I have completed this sacrifice myself, Bailiff Jesse, swear them in. Multiply as the corn multiplies, that my favor may be shewn you and upon you. Bailiff Jesse, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that at family gatherings, he sits alone at the iron table?

I do. Yes. Very well, Judge Hodgman. You may be seated. Chris and Jenna, for an immediate summary judgment in your favor, can either of you name the piece of culture that I paraphrased as I entered the court? I'm not. That was from the book of Genesis. That is an incorrect. It is from the Stephen King short story, children of the corn. I was going to say that.

Were you? Yes. Why didn't you say? Yes, I was. Why didn't you say it? I thought it was too obvious, but the corn reference, I said, no, it can't be that it's Yes, I was. Why didn't you say it? Because I thought it was too obvious with the corn reference. I said, no, it can't be that.

It's got to be from the Bible. Well, Jenna, you should be glad that he didn't choose because otherwise I would have found him in his favor. And you never would have sat at the kids' table again. So why, Jenna? First of all, let me understand this exactly. You, you two, what, what relationship do you have with each other? Chris is married to my sister. Okay. So, uh, your brother-in-law, Jenna, how old are you?

I am 33. All right. And you at family gatherings still sit at what is called the kids table. Is that correct? Right. And you at family gatherings still sit at what is called the kids table. Is that correct? Well, if we have the option, the members of my family that are in my generation, if we have the option to sit together, we generally do. But often it is kind of divided. The kids table is not just about where we sit. Whoa, this is getting deep, Jenna. Deep indeed. Before we get into the metaphysics of this, let me clarify. So as you were growing up, you, like all monstrous children, were isolated from adults so that they could enjoy their wine spirits and sexy talk.

Something like that. And so that you could go and sit and talk about Star Wars. Isn't that right? Roughly, roughly, yes. I would just say, I would just answer yes. And as you have grown, the then children who sat at this kid's table still prefer their own company rather than the company of the hated elders whom they would

prefer to sacrifice to the god that walks behind the rose and the corn? Well, I would certainly not use those words. We enjoy each other's company very much. And so we do generally like to sit together and we don't live in the same area anymore. So it's kind of a time to catch up. But actually the kids table now as it stands is more just the actual group of individuals and whether or not there's a table so we the kids table is more of an idea at this point you know we'll get together out of town and talk about it as a kids table gathering this is not a court of ideas this is a court of concrete things like this is concrete, though. Like tables and poured concrete counters.

But it is concrete, because if the kids' table is done away with, that means we lose the family tradition and the right to refer to ourselves as the kids' table. We lose that cohesive force. And this is what Chris wants. Chris wants to get rid of the kids kids table. Is that correct, Chris? Yes, I would like to get rid of the – well, no. I would like to establish definitions for who is a child and who is not. Once that definition is established, if you're not a child, you don't sit at a kid's table. At the physical – and I'm talking about physical kid's table here. If the group wants to call themselves kid's table when we're not sitting at dinner, that's fine.

But when it comes to actually sitting and going through the ritual of family dinners, I'm pro integration and Jenna is a separate, but equal sort of person. So Chris, uh, who, who are you? I mean, you're, you're mean, you're not of this family. How long have you been married to Jenna's sister? We've been together for 10 years and married for five. Okay. And so you're a Chris-come-lately to this whole family tradition. What rights do you have to meddledle in this you're not of blood

you are you are you are of of marriage at best indeed when it comes to the kids table you are essentially a concubine you are a you are a you are a presence that is tall that is that is perhaps delighted in but you have no legal rights um i i would point to the past history of the past 10 years any uh kids table it seems like there's basically um de facto citizenship if you're and jenna's shaking her head agreeing with me if you are coming with one of the original you know canute uh canutes and jensen family members um you're their other than you are part of the family you are a citizen of the kids so but you sit at the kids table if there is a kids table do you sit at it i have so far sat at the kids table yes and is kids table a democracy jenna uh more or less yes we generally

uh do things by majority of kids table members so chris is a full-fledged member just like everybody else but the issue is that he's just one. I don't approve of that at all. We're very inclusive, actually. What sort of, well, I know, but you know, what's happening is that in the idea of kids table is now so inclusive as to, to risk becoming meaningless. First of all, you're all adults. That's my point entirely, sir. Well, what is your point? Why is this a problem for you, Chris? What, describe a specific instance where you were seated at the kid's table. I'm presuming that it's a full-size table. You're not sitting at a child-size table, are you?

No, no, no. All right. So what's your, what's your beef? Why, I understand you, you have a natural desire to, to come into a situation and put down a lot of rules and bureaucracy because that might be your passion in life. Are you an attorney? What is your profession? I'm not an attorney. I'm a co-owner of a medical clinic. Okay.

I understand. So you like procedures? Sure. I do like procedure. That is true. All right. sure i do like procedure that is true all right so but but beyond just your natural mania for procedure what and and and bureaucracy what uh what is the reasoning behind your desire to change a family tradition okay so um the one i will point to one other mania there's there's two

two reasons the one i don't want you to point to another mania. I want you to answer my question. I'll tell you something right now. I know that it's going to be a non-answer to the question whenever I ask a question and someone goes, okay. Because that means you're consulting your notes. I don't want you to consult your notes. I want you to answer the question. Why are you upset about this? I think it's mean. I think it's mean to consult your notes. I want you to answer the question. Why are you upset about this?

I think it's mean. I think it's mean spirited. I think that the kids table as an institution, as it is currently run, is broken and needs to be demolished. And I think it also robs the family of evolving past whatever state it was in when all of these children were actual children and teenagers. I think that we are missing out on the ability to have intergenerational happiness. I'm going to stop you there because I originally thought that the dystopia we were dealing with here was a children of the corn type dystopia, a kind of a kind of tyranny of children or adult children who are unwilling to acknowledge that they've grown up and hate

their elders so much that they want to be apart from them at all times. But now I realize it's completely different dystopia. This is like Aldous Huxley. Like you are a social planner who wants to come in and say, this family is all wrong. I'm going to reorganize this entire family so that can evolve to a greater good. All you have to do is submit to my will. Yeah, I know. I know you, Chris. You own a medical clinic. You and Obama want to come in and tell me how to live my life.

Yeah. So let's get rid of that dystopia stuff for a moment because that's cuckoo. That's the mania that you're trying to point to. Let's focus on, let's focus on point one. The one honest thing you've told me, I will have order. When I am speaking, you do not speak. So the one thing that I really understood from what you were saying is I think it is mean what does how is to whom is it mean on multiple occasions at the family dinners um the uh various adults will try to come in well they're all adults they're all adults they're all adults let's refer let's refer let's refer to them as the olds okay so so So at various times, the olds will try to come in. We'll try to sit. The olds will suggest once in a while, hey, let's all sit together. And there's a resounding no.

And it's all good, lighthearted fun. But I could see on some people's faces that actually, you know, I really actually would like to sit with the kids. And I really would like to spend this dinner time with them. would like to sit with the kids and I really would like to spend this dinner time with them. But they have a very polite family that doesn't always, you know, say, Hey, no, I want this thing. Whose feelings do you think are being hurt the most? Nancy. Who is Nancy? Jenna's aunt.

Okay. And I believe that you submitted some evidence of an affidavit of the transcript of a, apparently you deposed Nancy about her feelings on this and you have a assigned deposition. I do. All right. Let's, let's hear a little bit of what Nancy has to say. First of all, Jenna, do you, do you agree or disagree? Excuse me. Do you agree or disagree that, that you and your siblings and the other adults who sit at the kid table are mean to the olds i disagree strongly in fact some of the olds have expressed uh pleasure at overhearing

our conversation because we're so much fun our our silliness kind of spills over to the the side of the olds what's so what's the kind of fun stuff that you guys talk about? Comic books and trading cards? Toys? Fart jokes. Overall silliness. I don't even know. It's kind of kid stuff, you know? You wouldn't know unless you're a kid.

All right. I want you to think very carefully about a specific fart joke or other silly thing that happened that you can describe as Chris now presents his evidence, this deposition of Aunt Nancy. All right. Okay. So this is a, it's a little, it's a conversation. There's two or three interchanges. Should I just read that? Yes.

So exhibit B, phone depositions conducted by counsel. Two adults, Jenna's mom, two of the olds, Jenna's mom, Beth, olds jenna's mom beth and aunt nancy all right beth says first b1 um adults have always wanted to sit close to the kids table that's from this because they have more interesting conversation all right shut up mom next all right there's one that I think really gets to the mean point, which is not in the version that you have here. Okay? Are you introducing new evidence? The rules of evidence were unclear.

This is highly irregular. Would you please hand the evidence to bailiff Jesse Thorne? Yes. Here you go, sir. Thank you. And would you, Jesse, would you please hand it back to Chris so that he can read it? I will. All right. I believe in procedures. Thank you. And would you, Jesse, would you please hand it back to Chris so that he can read it? I will.

All right. I believe in procedures. I want us all to evolve out of our obviously difficult relationship that started into a new, better relationship. So this is the procedure that I have chosen. Chris, please present the new evidence. Okay, here we go. Nancy said, you weren't around for this, but we used to place cards at the tables, and it was always a matter of negotiation between the adults on what seating was fair. We had to place cards to create an even balance of how much someone got to sit and spend time next to the kids table. There were in effect border skirmishes for who got premium seating. Me. So it was a pretty big deal if you got to sit right next to the kids table. Oh, yeah. you got that, you scored. That was a big deal. But if you were lucky to be close enough, you had to not cause trouble because the adult on the other side would get angry if you were hogging the conversation or being too boring. Oh really? You mean you actually have a code of behavior when in presence of kids? Oh yeah. Because if you would say boring things or go on too long, the kids would start turning their back on you to talk amongst themselves and you'd be left jumping up and down behind them, like in a schoolyard when you're the last person picked.

And you're trying to say, what about me? What about me? I have opinions too. I want to say something about that. So it is to this day. Jenna, it sounds like you guys are all a bunch of queen bees. And you've turned your queen bees and you're and you've and you've turned and you've turned your own aunt and presumably mother and other olds in your family into the into the nerds that you just ignore i would disagree um in part because we don't always stick to the kids table i would say that we have made sacrifices in the past at family gatherings for the common good when they put down name cards, for example, and try to disperse our ranks. We will accommodate them for the greater good of the family. And, you know, it's not a rigid thing.

But let me understand. I understand the kids table is a concept, not a table. But when Nancy is talking about being seated next to kids table, does that mean that you and the various relatives, but how many are in this group of the kids table group? There are eight of us. Eight, including spouses and concubines like Chris? Yes, it's the four original members and their partners. Okay. All right.

And, uh, and so, uh, and how many, how many olds are there? Dozens, right?

So many olds. Not, no, actually, uh, less than us. Now we have seven. Yeah.

Well, eventually this is how it's going to go. You understand? Eventually this is a war of attrition. You will conquer and then one day and then one day you'll all be sitting there looking at each other telling your fart jokes and realize you're the only ones left and you're going to be sad that you didn't get to sit next to aunt nancy

no i would say when i think about us being all old and still referring to ourselves as the kids table, it makes me very happy. Yeah, no, you're pretty pleased with yourself now because you are all old. The thing is, we're not going by a conventional definition of children. But here's the thing. I know. I know. Everything's an idea. I get it. There are no rules anymore. Suddenly I'm on Chris's side. There are no rules anymore. Suddenly I'm on Chris's side. But when she talks about being seated next to the kids table, is it that you guys all occupy one end of a table or is there a separate table? What does it mean to sit next to kids table?

It depends on whose house the gathering is at. Sometimes it's its own table. Sometimes it's one end of a table. Christmas, it's generally all one long table at Fourth of July, for instance, at a different house, there's two separate round tables. Okay. So sometimes it's all right. Okay. And then there's sort of a, especially when it's all one table, there's sort of a demilitarized zone between the kids and the olds.

That is correct. That is not correct. That is how Nancy described it to me. Nancy described it to you as a demilitarized zone. She described it to me as a border where she was expecting that we would one day fill up the border with babies in order to be further and further and further away from the olds. Nancy was anticipating future militaristic baby actions. Do you have like one? And in the demilitarized zone, do you have a North Korean soldier and a South Korean soldier just stand there the whole time just staring at each other? This is so outside of the realm of the way I see things.

I just I couldn't even respond. I see it as a very fun, inclusive tradition. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It may be fun. It's certainly a tradition, but it is the definition of exclusive. Well, except that we're flexible. There have been some...

Sure, every now and then you have a mixer. Every now and then you invite the other camp over. Yeah. Right? For a summit. Yeah, yeah. Kind a summit. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of. Or sometimes if we have to,

for example, we have, I have in-laws who don't speak English. So if they need interpreting during the meal, we'll kind of, we'll sit by them on the adult side. You know, we're.

If you're, if you're asking me to applaud you for basic human decency. Well, I'm just saying. Well, I do have, I do have the option of not helping them at all and leaving them alone in total confusion the entire time, but I don't.

They do usually make them sit at the foreigner's table. By the way, do you have separate water fountains in the house too kids only no no no i see your honor if i may fine i'll allow it since i can't seem to stop you anyway i may submit one more piece of evidence that speaks to jenna's contention that everyone can hear what's going on and so there's no problem because everyone is so happy. It's another one from Nancy.

Very quick one that speaks to this. This is. Oh, everyone hears it. So it's fine. I will allow I will allow you to read Nancy. This is Jenna's mother. This is your mother in law. Oh, no.

Excuse me. Right. Excuse me. This is your. All right. This is Jenna's aunt and your aunt in law. And I'm going to I'm sticking with the definition. I'm sticking with my pronunciation of aunt as aunt today. I go back and forth because I grew up in Massachusetts and I'm sticking with aunt. Judge Hodgman,

point of order. I believe that the litigant needs to hand them to me, then I need to hand them back to him. Oh yes, absolutely. Here you go Bailiff Justin. Thank you. Here you go, Litigant. If I may, Your Honor. I will allow it under one condition, which is that you really play up the sorrow. Okay? Okay. Really make this pitiful. She's a small person. Very, very small. I love the word picture you're painting. We're all getting hard of hearing.

No, seriously. That's a real problem for Dan and me anyway. You can't hear a conversation more than one person away. So when you're farther away, you can't even hear the giggles and the laughter anymore. You're so close close yet so far away that is all okay first of all that was almost offensive but i loved it how can you how can you sit how can you sit there and coldly giggle jenna on your own well aunt nancy is sad that she doesn't get to see the young people in her life.

And you have a child now. Is that also an issue? This is true. What style of child do you have? What style of child? Oh, the male. The male style. Okay.

And how old is this child? Five months. Five months old. So where is this child? Five months. Five months old. So where is this child sitting? Mm-hmm. In presumably a height, well, in your arms, I guess. Well, yeah. So far there's only been one family event, and he was just kind of passed around, which I imagine will be the case for probably the next couple years, just passed from one person to another since everybody wants to hold him.

Right. Until he gets some autonomy and then you can withhold him from your older relatives and not allow... He can do what he wants. He can do what he wants. Oh, I see. He can sit where he wants. Will he sit at the kids' table or will he sit at a separate kids' kids' table? Well, there probably won't be a separate baby's table that's what i'm guessing it will be called uh until there are more members of his generation which remains to be seen he might just spend his whole life just kind of going back

and forth from kids to adults whoever wants to hang out with him i don't know and you presented some evidence as well is that not right yes i I did. What is the nature of your evidence? Are you introducing any new evidence or just the stuff that you sent me already? I could if you want me to, but I could just talk about what I sent in. Please. She's got as much evidence as you need. You want more evidence, she's got it. Yeah. You want me to cite something, I can cite it. All right, cool. You just let me know. What is your profession? Uh, I'm a medical interpreter. You're a medical interpreter. All right. I'm a medical interpreter. So yes, context, uh, really does determine the meaning. It's not just a fuzzy idea. It really

is a concrete reality. So if I have a, if I have, if I have a, uh, if I have a foreign disease, then I come to you to find out what I have. No, you should probably go to your doctor. But if you speak a different language than your doctor, then you'll want an interpreter present so that you can communicate with your doctor. Because I have a terrible case of mal-disembarkment. Can you help me out, doc? Oh, sorry. I have no medical background. You don't want my advice.

All right. Very well. So what is the evidence that you're presenting? So let's see. I presented a couple of different things. One just being an email from 2006. It was an exchange between me and my cousin Danny in which I was speculating that in the future, if our generation starts reproducing, then that future generation will have to refer to themselves as babies, perhaps, or pick something different since we will continue to be the kids table. But where will this end? If you're still the kids, then those babies are going to still be babies till they're 33? Oh, if they want to be. I mean,

they can call themselves whatever they want. You know, it was part of my argument is that groups should be able to call themselves... I guess you're right. If anyone should know that words have no meaning, it would be a medical interpreter. If anyone should know that words have no meaning, it would be a medical interpreter. They have a lot of meaning. It's just contextual. A kid is a family member of my generation. I'm not sure what this evidence is supposed to convince me of. Just that within our group, this is how we're choosing to define ourselves.

And we always have me having a baby which is what kind of initiated this whole uh proceeding doesn't really have anything to do with it and our age doesn't either because for example in another email that i think is from 2008 my sister and i were talking about how won't it be fun when we're old uh we'll still be the kids table there was definitely that expectation that it has nothing to do with age. It's just a family tradition. It's what we call ourselves. It's a fun way to refer to family members of our generation. Why do you hate your old so much that you don't want to be near them? What's going on at their table that is so loathsome? Well, this is a complete misperception. I would never use any of those words.

I like the family a lot. We have fun. a complete misperception. I would never use any of those words. That's why I'm here. Well, that's what Chris says. But we have a lot of fun with them as well. It's just that... I have a specific email from Danny saying exactly what he doesn't like about the olds table. This is new evidence or is this Exhibit A? I believe you have exhibit a. Yes, that's correct. I would like, I would, I would like, is Jenna sitting next to you and does she, can you pass exhibit a to her? Yes. Okay. First, first, no, no, wait, excuse me.

Please pass it to Jesse. And then it was just chain of evidence. And then, and then Jesse pass it to Jenna. And I'd like Jenna to read this email from the kids table. Thank you. Which part am I reading? This right here. Keepers. All right. Keepers of the sacred childish way.

Long ago, boundaries were established, separating those who were determined to discuss the dollar points of mortgage rates and politics from those young revolutionaries who actively debated the sophisticated sounds and odors of farts and other bodily noises. The table of cleared throats and awkward pauses seeking new recruits has tried for years to dissolve the parliament of the kids table. Child Jenna has actively led the charge to preserve our autonomy and for that we should be ever grateful. As the youngest child, at least for now, on the kids' table, I feel it is my sacred duty to proclaim my unwavering support for a kids' table, ever inclusive of our growing clan. Let us protect this new child child and teach him or her the finer points of evading long conversations with blank. What does blank mean?

Name removed for family unity. Harmony. Oh, but you can tell me. What does blank mean? Name removed for family unity. Harmony. Oh. But you can tell me. No, sir. We cannot. And child child refers to? The baby. To your baby, Jenna?

Yes. Is that your baby's name? Child child? No. His name is Marcelo. And this was written not by you but by danny who is your brother this is my cousin cousin he's the youngest member of the kids table yeah he lays it on a bit thick doesn't he well our whole email exchange was like that that's one of the one of the things

that we do at the kids table is um kind of mock gravity high register when it's not called for. You send each other a bunch of cutesy emails? Cutesy, no. I would say pretty cutesy. Well, this is in response to Chris's initial call to arms. Believe me. Believe me. You know, I get a lot of emails from people who choose to write to me in extremely verbose and flowery language. I know what cutesy is.

All right, all right. We're cutesy. Okay. Yes, I know. But we have fun being cutesy. Look, the whole thing is you guys are having a good time, right? That's right. That's right.

Yeah, good. All right. But just this letter does suggest two things. One, you guys love talking about farts. It seems to be a defining element. Like, do the olds even understand how much fart talk goes on? Maybe they wouldn't want to be over there. Maybe you could benefit from the experience of their old farts.

Oh, yeah, maybe not. I think you'd have to. their old fart stories no look you know what this is what this is what's the problem with kids today kids think they're the first ones who ever farted but i'm telling you i'm telling you your aunt nancy she's farted she's probably got a story you're missing out we have something to learn from the older generation and then you talk about this is the talk about the the you know he talks very disparagingly about the old's table the table of cleared throats and awkward pauses what is he talking about yes mortgage rates and politics that's what they talk about sometimes so do So would you say that there is a preponderance of opinion that the olds are boring? And not

farty enough for you? Yes. Alright. Do you have a fart joke that you want to tell at this time? Well, no. I was thinking about it. We don't exactly tell knock-knock jokes. They're more situational. It might sound kind of like a fart. Or a Simpsons reference, stuff like that.

Sure. That new show that all the kids are watching. All right. I think I have. So, Chris, what would you want me to order if I find in your favor? Chris, what would you want me to order if I find in your favor? I would just like anyone who is—I would like you to define children. No children at a kid's table.

When we have dinner, everyone sits together. We bring our fart jokes and everything into the politics table, and we merge them. And has this been put to a vote, Jenna? Yes, everybody is in agreement with me, except for my sister, who's not taking any sides because she's. When she says everyone, she just means the kids table. Oh, yes, of course. Because, you know, they're the relevant ones in this case. Yeah, sure. I know they're they're the only ones that matter. The kids are the only ones that matter in today's society. I get it. I get it. I get it.

Where would I sit? Where would I sit? I'm 41 years old. I have no problem with calling myself a grownup. I have a mustache. I'm a weird dad. I mean, my partner's 39. Where would you put me in your perfect society?

You're actually closer to kids' table age, but age isn't really the issue. So, you know. Your Honor, if you. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know that I'd want to sit at a kids table that would have me as a member. I've heard everything I need to hear before making my decision. I'm going to go to my exclusive judge's table and have a ham salad sandwich while I think this over.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the court. Jenna, why are you openly contemptuous of your older relatives? But I'm not. I'm not openly contemptuous. It's just that, um... Just you don't want to spend time with them because you might learn something. But the thing is that we do spend time with them. You might gain some wisdom. We all spend a lot of time together outside of family gatherings as well. So it would probably be different if we all lived out of town and this was our one chance to catch up.

But that's really only the case for Kids Table members. So I have lots of opportunities just in my daily life to glean information from them. You have a child of your own now. When do you stop being a child? Well, in the context of the kids table, I don't until I die because kids just means a member of our generation. So it's not about age.

It's not about whether you have kids. It's not about whether you're married or not. When you say a member of your generation, you mean a member of the generation that was featured in the Harmony Corrine film Kids? No, within my family. I mean, myself, my sister, my two cousins, and any of their partners or people that they decide to bring in. I wonder if they're going to kick me out.

Chris, how do you feel about your chances in this case? I'm feeling pretty good about it, actually. I think the judge hears the queen bee attitude, as you say. Do you know how to drive, Chris? Yes, I do. Are you capable of impregnating a woman if you so choose? Yes, I am. Do you have your own place to live, like possibly with a romantic partner?

Sure. Yeah, I can arrange that. Outside of the family. Is that what you're getting at? Are you some kind of grown-up? Oh, no. Jenna, how do you feel about your chances in the case? I'm feeling pretty good.

I think it's unlikely that there will be an order to dissolve the kids' table. Maybe in order to try to make more of an effort to integrate, but honestly, I think we already do, so that's not a problem. I mean, I'm hoping there won't be mandated name cards at every family gathering from now on. I'm not calling for that. But yeah, that's good. You don't seem that concerned about the consequences of your actions and rhetoric, Jenna. I'm going to be honest with you. Oh, it'll be anarchy. If he

rules that we have to break up, the next family gathering will be very interesting. No doubt. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Judge John Hodgman's decision. We're going to take a quick break when we come back. Judge John Hodgman's decision. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join

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Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. So, guys, first of all, Chris, you're absolutely right to bring this case to me because you have zero authority in this situation. You are

not a member of the kids' table, no matter what they tell you. You are a member by marriage. You are like a remote sort of a remote arranged marriage, like a prince from another country who has now shown up. You're like, you know what? You know, you're Prince Albert. Okay. You know what I'm saying? You're not the King of England. You're

the consort to the queen. You shut up and you put up a christmas tree and that's it stay out of the way i have as much right to to uh denounce kids table and and and dissolve it as you do indeed i have more right because i'm an internet judge and that is ultimately what comes is the crux of this case and it's a difficult one because I'm asked to balance two principles that are dear to me. I'm asked to balance family tradition, actually more than two principles, family tradition, which I think are good things, freedom of movement and association, which I think are great things, that frankly is the great privilege of adulthood. Once you turn 40, well, once you turn 30, you're allowed to start deciding who you hang around with for sure. Once you turn 40, you actually do start deciding who you hang around with because no one, you don't, you're not even your friends matter to you anymore. That's the privilege of adulthood is you get to sit where you want.

Everyone who has ever sat at a kid's table in their lives are trying to get out of that kid's table. You're the only ones who want to stay in it. I don't understand. But I do balance family tradition, freedom of movement and association, but against the loathsome practice of adults referring to themselves as kids. I can't stand that. Being a grown-up is a great privilege. And it is also your fate. And accepting it with grace is the hallmark of...

Jenna's rolling her eyes. Excuse me, I'm speaking. Sorry. And don't worry, I heard her rolling her eyes. Doesn't matter to me. know what because teenagers roll their eyes that's why i didn't adults express themselves and they talk about mortgages and farts and it is a great privilege to be an adult and it is also a sad fate that we all have to adjust to eventually and pretending that it's not happening is one of, you know, whether or not you're sitting at a separate table and referring to yourself as a kid and writing a cutesy email or, you know, wearing clothes from the surf shop when you're 41 years old.

Guilty, guilty. I'm guilty of that. I'm sorry. It's gross pretending that you're a kid when you're an adult. Gross. And I will say something else. This is patently ageist. And I think, and I take it seriously. I mean, I think that it's something that, you know, in any other context, if you had your own special friends and you always sat at the same table at the

cafeteria and other people wanted to come and sit with you, you'd be like, sorry, we have a email chain, whatever. It's gross. It's gross. It's ageist, it's exclusive, and it's contemptible. But... But we don't do that.

That's what you affirm in court. I don't know what's going on outside you've provided no evidence that you are are routinely socializing with the elders of your clan you let them hold your baby and that's about it that's what i'm getting out of this you've provided me no evidence to the contrary but i will say what this comes down to is saying you don't get to sit with us because you're old.

All right. I think that's a little, I think I'm, I think I'm being pretty plain that I think it's a little gross because I think, you know, you know, the olds in your family,

they're your family. You can learn from them. You can sit next to them. Maybe you'll learn something about a mortgage rate. Do you guys own your own homes? No, no, no. Grow up. Mortgage rates have never been lower. I happen to know because I sit next to adults sometimes. I don't know what I'm talking about, but it's true. Okay. That said,

I, I can't, I can't go against what is obviously a cutesy family tradition. That even sad Aunt Nancy clearly loves and takes a kind of perverse pleasure in trying to infiltrate this mean gang. gang. And ultimately it's, you know, I do trust that you are not being a total monster. And more to the point, even if I ordered you guys to dissolve this, you wouldn't. Because

that's what teenage bully gangs do. They defy authority. Even of their elders. And you would probably just crucify me in the middle of a cornfield and wait for a monster to eat me. So admitting that I am powerless, which is another privilege of adulthood, and that I can't control you kids. privilege of adulthood and that I can't control you kids. I'm not even going to humiliate myself by ordering you to break up this gang.

And instead I will turn on, and I, but I hope you're hearing what I'm saying. And I will instead turn to Chris and say, Chris, you did the right thing by bringing this case to me, but you also did the wrong thing by ever trying to exercise control over a family that you are barely accepted into, I think. No. No, I'm sure. I'm sure they say that you're a member of the kids table, but you know, over,

over a longstanding family tradition that you have only known about for at a maximum a decade, you are a thoughtful person to look after Aunt Nancy and your mother-in-law, Beth. But coming in and trying to establish new rules and orders, that's not cool. that's not cool. Instead, I suggest and indeed order you to do the better and more effective thing, which is refuse to sit at this dumb table. Even when your wife says, come sit next to me at the kids table, say, no, I'm going to go sit next to Aunt Nancy. John Hodgman told me not Nancy. I have, I have,

I have researched, I have researched some fart jokes and I'm going to bring happiness and learn something from these olds. I'm going to, I'm going to engage in cross generational conversation and you will lead by example. And eventually this whole thing, once, once you go, Chris, the whole thing is going to fall apart, I guarantee it.

You're going to destroy them from within by staying without. Ooh. Not soon. Yeah. And child. I guess I'll let you know how it goes. And child child will grow up looking at his uncle and saying, that's weird.

That grownup is not sitting at the kid's table. There must be a different, there must be a meaning to words. I think that dude's pretty cool. I'm glad he stopped trying to boss his wife and sister-in-law around all the time. So I do find in favor of Jenna, the kids table may stand, but Chris, I have laid out. Well, you don't have to take such pleasure in it, Jenna.

I have laid out, I have laid out a course of action that I think will, will integrate the table and and make you feel better about the situation and will lead to a, pleasurable intergenerational meal in the future. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Chris, this is a compromise decision, if you will. How do you feel about it? I feel pretty good. I'm a little skeptical at my powers to overcome the politics and mortgage stuff and also to, you know, persuade anyone at the kids' table. I do have some hope, as he said with young Marcello, that he will look at me and get some sort of inspiration. Look, I'm sorry. I did jump back in for a second, just to clarify here, Chris, I was, I was suggesting rather facetiously that you're going to dissolve kids table by,

by, uh, by, by, by breaching the borders and going to the other side that may or may not happen the point is that when you see injustice you should take action that makes you feel is that you should take action that you think is just regardless of whether or not anyone follows you right that's called bravery as opposed to start laying out all kinds of rules and regulations to make things okay for everyone. That's called Obamacare. That is true. And that's exactly the way my family raised me up. So thank you for the reminder. Sorry about that, Jesse. I had to stick my head back in on that one. Just so I'm clear, though, there is a judgment that it is weird and a little messed up, right?

I don't know that I expressed an opinion. I expressed a dissenting opinion to my own judgment. But the judgment is in favor of the principles of family tradition and freedom of association, Trump, cutesy emails, and hatred of grandparents. Okay. Thank you. Jenna, how are you feeling about this decision? I feel good. I feel very pleased that I'll be able to bring your response back to my cousins and my sister. Notice how she didn't say she was going to bring it back to the adults. To the adults. The kids' table is more concerned about this than the adults table. But yes, I feel good. Are you at all concerned that you're going to grow up into one of those weird Gilmore Girls type situations?

I don't know what that is. Where you and your child are gabbing back and forth and then you visit your parents and they got a big nice house but your life's a mess. No, I'm not. All you have is your friend melissa mccarthy i'm not concerned because this is just it's all a game you know it's all about the context like i said it's not like we want to be called kids by the outside world and like we live our lives like children uh so no i'm not concerned it's all a game okay we'll leave it at that Thank you guys very much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney,

is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there?

Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O.

Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Judge Hatchman, do I really have to sit over here? What? Oh, I'm sorry, Jesse. I forgot that you were over there. I'm over here at the judge's table eating my ham salad sandwich in utter silence by myself. Enjoy your children's food.

I got you an apple squeezy and a Capri Sun. Part of me secretly wishes I were over there with you, enjoying yourself instead of thinking about mortgage rates. You know what I'm thinking about, Jesse, is a ham salad sandwich. I have never had a ham salad sandwich. Obviously the ham salad sandwich I am eating here is an imaginary ham salad sandwich. It's more of an idea than an actual ham salad sandwich. I have never had a ham salad sandwich. Obviously the ham salad sandwich I am eating here is an imaginary ham salad sandwich. It's more of an idea than an actual ham salad sandwich. But I really want to have one now that I've said ham salad

sandwich this many times. Can we clear the dockets? I bought a ham on the internet. I bought a ham on the internet recently. I'll share it with you if you want. You bought a ham on the internet? Yeah. I went it with you if you want. You bought a ham on the internet? Yeah. I went to a website where you could buy a ham and they send it to you.

I'm going to have ham salad for dinner. I don't care what my family says. Let's clear the docket. Here we go. This is from Alex. My co-worker and I recently had a disagreement. What constitutes volunteer work? She'll regularly reference how

often she volunteers in conversation. Her volunteer work is performed almost exclusively through our company. Though the company is very involved in the community, that's not our regular line of work. All of the volunteering is done during work hours, and she's compensated in full by our company for her time spent, quote, volunteering, unquote. I believe that she should not be allowed to call it volunteer work as she's being paid to do it. I think she should be more genuine and call it something like community service. Should she be allowed to mislead others with her good deeds? Well, first of all, good for you, Alex, for keeping this monster honest.

Well, first of all, good for you, Alex, for keeping this monster honest. He has a lot of nerve out there serving soup at soup kitchens, calling yourself a volunteer. But I think that there is something to what Alex says here, Jesse, because, you know, volunteer has a specific meaning. And the dictionary definition obviously comes from, it means voluntary. It means you voluntarily give yourself over originally to military service. It was originally a military term. And in that sense, there is a sense of real self-sacrifice, putting yourself at a measure of risk whether that is a measure of being shot in the head with an arrow or not making money while you're doing a thing that is important

anyway and also it has a connotation of free will that is to say voluntary you are doing it yourself and arguably it's unclear first of all there is no real sacrifice in this case because she is being paid and it's unclear. First of all, there is no real sacrifice in this case because she is being paid.

And it's unclear how much of this is truly voluntary. I mean, I'm sure she's a good person and takes pleasure in doing these things. But if the company is that into volunteer work that they are routinely paying people to do good works in the world, if she were at... What would happen to her at work

if she just said no thanks i'm not interested i'm gonna sit here and sit at my desk and play solitaire and be a selfish monster like john hodgman you know she might actually be she might actually be disparaged or punished at work for not volunteering in which case she has her free will is compromised to some degree now i don't know if it's true but finally i mean there is something inherently braggy in the word volunteer because it does connote the voluntary sacrifice of time money and and olden times health and safety to do something that is worth doing on its own. Compared to community service, your proposed alternate term, which denotes that she stole

a bunch of hot dogs off the rollers at a 7-Eleven and got caught and has to do some stuff to clear her name. So I don't know if community service is the best. You know what she has to do to clear her name? Eat the hot dogs. to do to clear her name, eat the hot dogs. She has to eat the hot dogs and then clean up her own vomit from the side of the road while wearing a yellow jumpsuit. So I think that in the interest of humility, I will agree with you, Alex, and say this is not volunteer work in the very strict sense of the word.

But it is good works and may be described as, I suppose, community service unless something else comes. I can't stop her from using a particular word, but I hear what you're saying, Alex, and I think your friend's a little bit braggy. Here's something from Sean. My girlfriend Natasha and I plan to move in together in the next year. Our issue is this. Should we use a top sheet on the bed? I don't like the top sheet, as I tend to wrap my comforter around me when sleeping, and I find that a tucked-in top sheet feels like being sealed into an envelope.

Jesse, I'm going to stop you there just to say I can already tell that this is one where my entire judgment is going to be expressed through a series of groans and angry, surprised disgust. Go on. I find that a tucked-in top sheet feels like being sealed into an envelope. Thus, I use a bottom sheet and a comforter only. Natasha objects to this on two fronts. One, that I don't...

I imagine she does. One, that I don't wash my comforter often enough. You don't. And two, that I use cheap sheets and haven't experienced the comfort of high thread counts. You don't. However, I do wash my comforter on a regular basis, and I don't think thread count makes a difference. Incorrect on both. Incorrect in both cases.

I'm sure you do not wash your comforter on a regular basis. He doesn't even seem to have a cover on his comforter. I don't know. I don't know. He's sleeping directly against the comforter without a cover, then washing the entire comforter. The only thing that could make this more disgusting is if he sleeps in the nude. And I'm going to stipulate that he does. Just make this even worse. Go on.

I would like to request an order be made that she adapt to a top sheet-free bed when we move in together. I'll gladly wash the comforter on a weekly basis, and I'll promise not to remove the top sheet when we're staying at a hotel. You're going to be staying at a hotel real quick, fella. It's going to be a bachelor's hotel.

I like that the implication is that he has been doing that previously which which turns his bizarre predilection for sleeping without a top of preference and into a kind of mania. I venture to say, Sean, I always appreciate individualism. You are definitely outside the realm of typical behavior among sleepers. Nor do I have any confidence whatsoever that you

wash your comforter or comforter cover frequently enough to offset the simple, hygienic, and frankly comfortable protection of the top sheet. I think fine for you to sleep in whatever weird configuration that you want. Though I will remind you that the comforter is not bedding, right? That is the barrier between the world and your bedding. And it also provides you with some warmth and, I dare say, comfort. And it also provides you with some warmth and, I dare say, comfort. But those sheets are there to protect the things that you have, such as the mattress and the comforter, that don't get washed frequently from your weird oils and hairs and things.

It's okay if you're on your own, but I don't think that it is fair to force this lifestyle upon Natasha. And I think you've got to learn to be a normal human. That's my ruling. This ruling was made purely out of disgust. I understand he has personal preference and personal preference has a major role in sleeping, because it might be hard to adapt to a new kind of sleeping pattern, but I just find that too gross to tolerate. So I

rule. Maybe they should get two little beds, Dick Van Dyke show style. Can you think of an argument as to why he should use a top sheet that is beyond get normal and be less gross, that is beyond just my disgusted reaction to what he should use a top sheet that is beyond get normal and be less gross, that is beyond just my disgusted reaction to what he's proposing?

Well, there are people and places where a top sheet is not the tradition. I know that I was surprised to discover upon checking into a hotel in Milan that there was no top sheet on the bed. Really? But frankly, I was willing to accept that. I forgot that Sean is an Italian name, so maybe that's what's...

I was willing to accept that fact simply because in a hotel, the linens are changed and essentially boiled for four hours every day. Right. And so I felt that there weren't necessarily the same kind of hygiene and, frankly, comforter maintenance issues that one would find in a home situation where the sheets are getting changed once a week or so.

Right. But also, this goofball denies that thread count makes a difference. Now, to the pedants in our audience, thread count numbers can be manipulated and they do not tell the whole story. However, there is a big, big difference between high-quality sheets and low-quality sheets. And thread count is one reasonable way to determine that. Alongside, of course, you know, the sense of touch. And given that this guy says he doesn't care about thread counts, which is patently ridiculous. I mean, if you had ever encountered a nice sheet, you would actually

care about it. But that he says that he doesn't would suggest that he has not really encountered a lot of nice sheets. And so I don't think he's running his bedroom like a bedroom in Milan, like a hotel bedroom in Milan. I just have a picture of, you know, a double bed with a fitted sheet and like a bare low rent company store comforter without even a cover on it and a mattress full of sand. But maybe I'm wrong. I'm imagining a guy in a top hat where the top of it is kind of sproing off like the top of a can of beans. You know what I'm talking about? And he's sleeping in a big burlap sack inside a boxcar. Yeah, that is the traditional.

It is traditional for hobos to not use top sheets. That's true. I didn't realize that Sean was an Italian hobo. I apologize. The thing is, you drink enough strawberry wine, you can get to sleep no matter what the thread count is. But there's

also the lulling sound and gentle cradling of a moving tree. Yeah. It's a hobo's life for us. Our thanks this week to L. Anthony Sanner for suggesting our episode title. If you want to suggest episode titles for future Judge John Hodgman cases, follow us on Twitter at MaxFunHQ, at Hodgman, and at Jesse Thorne, J-E-S-S-E-T-H-O-R-N.

Or like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. Just search for Judge John Hodgman. And of course, if you have a dispute that you would like heard in the court of Judge John Hodgman, simply write to me, hodgman at maximumfund.org. I read all the emails and evaluate them personally, or you can fill out a simple form at maximumfund.org slash J-J-Ho. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of Maximumfund.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at Maximumfund.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne and edited by Mark McConville.

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