Judge John Hodgman - The Battle of the Baton

Episode Date: June 10, 2011

When Jake listens to his favorite classical music, he finds himself conducting furiously and with abandon.  His wife Erica, an accomplished concert musician, says his flamboyant conducting makes a mockery of her life's work. Must Jake cease his carefree conducting style?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the battle of the baton. Jake brings the case in his own defense. When he listens to a favorite piece of classical music, he finds himself conducting furiously with his fingers. Unfortunately for Jake, his wife, Erica, is currently getting her master's degree and has a deep understanding and love of classical music. She's prone to correcting Jake in his conducting technique. She says that Jake's conducting is making a mockery of her favorite form of music. Is this conducting mere enthusiasm, or is it a sarcastic joke? Is it appropriate to conduct even if you're conducting in the incorrect time signature? Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Hello, as you know, I am the very model of a modern judging podcaster. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Hello. As you know, I am the very model of a modern judging podcaster. Did you conduct along to that, sir? I did very slightly with my pinky. Ew. That's disgusting. Go on.

Swear them in. Please raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing nothing but the truth, so help you God, or whatever? Yes. Yes. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling in this matter, despite the fact that the only music he conducts along to is a few well-worn Jethro Tull cassette tapes? Yes. Yes.

Very well, Judge Hodgman. Aqualung, Jesse Thorne. Jake Frost? Yes. Is that you? This is me. It is I. Your name sounds like a comic book character. I know. I know. I've heard that many times. What is the problem, Mr. Frost? Well, essentially, I feel like the problem is when I'm conducting to the music, it's not a mockery. It's a form of self-expression. I'm expressing myself to the music, which moves me. And I feel like if I have to inhibit that, or if I can't express myself fully, then that's like a fundamental right that's being taken away from me. I'll decide that. I'll decide whether it's your right to move your arms around in a crazy fashion while listening to music. Okay.

You are listening to classical music? We listen to classical music on occasion. I usually listen when I'm with Erica. I usually don't listen on my own very much. Oh, okay. So this is something. And do you air conduct, as it were, only to classical music or also to light rock or rap music or emo or tune yards or Dixieland or any of those other genres of movies? Air banjo. What?

Air drums. Are you saying you play the air guitar and the air banjo and the air drums as well? Yes, I dabble in those, I would say. You know those are loathsome arts. Well, I think... You are aware that that is a loathsome thing to do, air guitar. Well, I've found a lot of elegance in air guitar before, personally. All right, you know what?

Now I know what I'm dealing with. Now I know the kind of person I'm dealing with. Okay, All right. You know what? Now I know what I'm dealing with. Now I know the kind of person I'm dealing with. Okay. All right. You should know for the record that air guitar is loathsome and air guitar competitions are loathsome. I have friends who do this sort of thing. I disagree with it strongly. Oh, yeah.

Now I've got you interested. Now you're going to go sign up for an air guitar competition. Yeah. We can get some links from you, some local competitions. This is a dumb, hipstery thing to do, like rock, paper, scissors at a bar, to avoid developing an actual skill. I would dare say that playing rock band on a computer is a more meaningful thing to do with your time than to do air guitar sincerely or, or ironically. And it's almost,

it's almost exclusively done sarcastically. Well, are you a sarcastic air conductor? I guess I do delve a little bit into the air guitar as a joke, but let's, let's not, let's not mention it again. Or, or I'm, or I may just throw this whole thing out of court. I mean, throw the whole case out of court. I mean throw the whole case out. As a clear hipster prank that you are pulling on me. Okay?

Yes. Alright. Let's stick to one absurd hobby that makes you look like a fool at a time. Now, what you're doing is you're listening to classical music with your wife and you're conducting in the air. What kind of classical music are we talking about typically?

Brahms. Some Tchaikovsky. Are you making this up? No, no, no. I do know that. I'm sorry. Brahms is a guy. Dvorak. Always some Beethoven. Sure. The Biggs.

The Biggs. What's your favorite piece of music? I would say the Brahms Fourth Concerto. Mozart, clarinet, quintet, and A minor. There's only one concerto. Oh, it's the First Concerto. I like the Third and Fourth Movements. Okay, Mr. Frost.

Mr. Frost? Mr. Frost? Yes. I'm going to talk to your wife for a little bit now me. Okay, Mr. Frost. Mr. Frost? Mr. Frost? Yes. I'm going to talk to your wife for a little bit now. All right, that's fine. I'm ashamed. Erica, what is your name? Erica?

Yes. Erica Shirts? Erica Shirts, yes. We both have nouns for last names. Yeah, but your name sounds like it was made up by a five-year-old coming up with a name for a imaginary friend while looking at a closet. Well, no offense. I'm just saying it's an unusual name. It's true. It is unusual. Are you related to Kristen Schertz? She is, in fact, my sister. Oh, she's the ukulelist that you referred to in your original letter ah she's a very she's an accomplished ukulelist and a big jonathan colton fan she is i've met i've met i've

met her before have i met you before uh probably not i think i've met jonathan colton but i don't think i've met you before all right well you just hurt my feelings but that's fine. I wish I could. Does this count? Mr. Frost. Excuse me, sir. I'm speaking to Ms. Shirts now. I only malign your name because once when I was a child, my friend Damon had some imaginary friend whose name I couldn't remember. And he said, do you have an imaginary friend? And I was like, uh, sure. Um, uh, Brahms, but I was, I was at a loss and I was looking at the window and I said, yeah, of course I have an imaginary friend. Windowsill is my imaginary friend. So from now on, my, my imaginary friend is Mr. Shirts. He's a starchy, he's a starchy fellow. One of our last names. All right, let's get to the nuts and bolts about

this. I love, I love making fun of your names, but let's get down to this. Okay. Uh, how long have you guys been married? Uh, less than a year,

10 months. Okay. And how old are you? 23 and 22, respectively. Well, no, not respectively. I'm 23. You're 23.

I was looking at you at the time. Oh, she was looking at me. Mr. Frost, please. Yes, sir. I'm talking to Mr. Shirts right now. I'm 23. You're 23. I was looking at you at the time. Oh, she was looking at me. Mr. Frost, please. Yes, sir. I'm tying to his shirts right now. Mr. Frost, please chill.

Oh, I booed myself. Yeah, you know what? You deserve that self-boo. I was going to say, Mr. Frost, if the president does it, it is legal. I was going to say, Mr. Frost, if the president does it, it is legal. Now, listen, Erica, describe to me what your husband, who's so nitpicky about his age, does when he hears classical music. So it's really animated and it's like overconducting, like his nose is in in the air his arms are all over the place and the most annoying thing is that his wrists are like really floppy and so it looks really really fake and it looks like he's making fun of it he looks like does he look like bugs bunny conducting an orchestra yeah that sounds about right actually actually. Sounds about right. And so what's he doing wrong with his wrists?

Well, in conducting, if you have, like, when you hit a beat, either down or to the side or something like that, you usually want one point hitting that beat so the orchestra knows where the beat is. But he has about seven points hitting seven different beats. Because his wrist is flopping all over the place? Exactly. beat is, but he has about seven points hitting seven different beats. And so it's just... Because his wrist is flopping all over the place? Exactly.

Like a cartoon rabbit's? Yes. Yes. That's a good description. Does he have a big white wig that he puts on when he does this? Usually not, but I wouldn't put it past him to get one. Boy, oh boy. Two young people 10 months into their marriage, and the contempt is already pretty high.

I think this one's going to last, everybody. I really do. But Erica, Ms. Schertz, you seem to know what you're talking about. Well, hopefully I do. I study it. Okay, what do you study? What do you study precisely? I study violin performance. Okay,

and so you, have you ever taken a conducting class? I have not, but I've worked with a lot of conductors and talked to them about conducting. And are there such things as conducting classes? There are, there are definitely. Right, I mean that's a serious field of study, is it not? Learning how to move your arm around in the right way? What are the other skills that a conductor brings to the dais or the podium? What would you say the front of the orchestra is? What would you call that? The podium. The podium? Call it the podium. Okay. What other skills is the conductor bringing to the podium aside from peacocking around with all this crazy arm movement and sweating? Well, they need to know what instruments come in when and if they're loud or soft or smooth or whatever.

And they also need to know how to rehearse an orchestra. That's probably the most important. And how do you mean? So usually orchestras need to rehearse for a performance. Right. So knowing how to manage the time and who to pick on and what to drill and things

to get you ready for a performance. Right, right, right. And who do you pick on? The violists? I mean, it's always the violists, right? Usually woodwinds are easier to hear. So that's who they generally pick on. Right, you pick on the piccolos.

That's what they always say. Yeah, and it rolls off the tongue, so that helps as well. they generally pick on. Right. You pick on the piccolos. That's what they always say. Yeah. And it rolls off the tongue, so that helps as well. Not really off the tongue. More off the lips. You see what I'm saying? Okay. It's a closer. I do.

Okay. I do. So what is your problem with what Erica is trying to inform you about here, sir, Mr. Frost? Well, my argument would be that the correct form for conducting is kind of irrelevant because I'm not really trying to conduct an orchestra, and I'm not really trying to conduct. No, then you would be. If you thought you were actually conducting the music coming out of your speakers, you would be demented.

I would be demented. I really would be. Right now, you're just embarrassing yourself, but you're not demented. You are aware of reality. That's true. Well, at least I'm doing it in public. Okay. So I think that the argument of the correct form is kind of relevant because it's a form of self-expression. It's not necessarily I'm trying to actually conduct an orchestra or learn how to conduct an orchestra.

I'm just expressing myself. And so I don't feel like that. I mean, that form of self-expression. Like singing along to a song. Like singing along to a song. Yes. Right. Or dancing to music.

And dancing is itself a skill, right? Right. That you can study for many, many years, but if you hear a song on the radio, you can still move around like a spaz having never studied dancing. Like a crazy hipster. And no one's going to tell you to stop doing it

except maybe your wife. Exactly. Right. Well, that's the problem. I see. I see where we're going. Now, let me ask you this question. You say you do it when you listen to classical music, understandably, but you seem to have

absolutely no knowledge of any classical music, aside from what your wife tells you to say. And you only listen to classical music with your wife. Are you doing this just to get her goat, or is this something you've done all your life? This isn't something that I just started doing. Oh, you're a classical musician? Well, look at this. It was more like, it's something I've done for a long time. Did you ever take an instrument?

Yeah, I played the flinch horn for a couple years, and I played the baritone for a couple years. And I also actually played the violin when I was a kid for a few years. I don't want to hear about that. But you are a dabbler. You are a dilettante. Yes, a dilettante. A little violin, a little French horn, a little baritone. For the sake of those listening at home and me, because I'm

blanking on it right now, remind us what a baritone is, aside from a sound. A small tuba. A small tuba. It's like a small tuba. It's a smuba. It's a smuba, yes.

Yeah, yeah. A small tuba. And that's actually kind of the inner circle. That's the way we refer to it, is the smuba. Flattery will get you somewhere, but not everywhere. Certainly not nowhere. I think they call it a berry. So you dabbled in the strings.

Listen, I'm a dabbler too. I was a violist and I was a clarinetist. The two in the orchestra that got picked on the most. Woodwinds and violas. And I had no fondness for you snobby violinists. I'm sorry. Understand? Sometimes we can be snobby.

I do understand. Oh, really? Sometimes you can be snobby? How about the moment you pick up a violin until you die? Hey, I'm going to blame that one on Kristen, actually, because she was playing the violin, and that's why I wanted to play it. Let's not bring Kristen into this any further. She started on the violin.

Yeah, she had the sense to get out. I have a lovely polo shirt that she made, which has a hobo symbol on it for me. I believe it. So I am prejudiced towards your family and not to the Frosts. Oh, we're nice people. Really nice people. And their devilish hellfire club. Nice but cold.

Boo. Boo. Boo. I would like to say something. Okay. I'm not completely opposed to Jake's conducting, actually. I mostly am opposed to the floppy wrist and the over-exaggerating of the conducting.

But are you mocking this music? I am not mocking this music. I am not mocking this music. I am not mocking this music. Remember, you're under oath. You are under oath. I understand that. I understand the solemnity of the oath that I've taken. But I genuinely have a reaction to the music, a positive reaction to the music.

And it's not out of sarcasm or, you know, a desire to mock that I do this. And I would contend that he, there's no way you could watch what he does and not think he's mocking it. Even if he's not trying to, it still appears that he is. I mean, this is a, this is an issue of, of trust. This is the foundation of a marriage. Do you, do you believe he is being sincere when he says, I am not mocking you or the music that you love or the art form that is conducting?

I believe that he's not trying to, and I don't think that's his intention. All right. If you feel that he is sincere, and I'm not sold, I'm not sure that he's being sincere, but if you feel he's being sincere and not mocking you or the music, then you need to stop talking about that and just accept that that's true. Otherwise, you doubt his sincerity, which is fine too. But if you really believe he's sincere,

then let's table that whole issue. He's not mocking it. He's just looking silly and embarrassing himself and others. Okay. You have no children, I presume. No children. So I have no children, I presume. No children. So I have to ask you this question.

Why do you insist in this way in acting like an insane middle-aged dad? This is something like a 50-year-old dad would do to really embarrass his teenage kids. Well, I don't do this in public. I only do it when we're either at home or in the car or something. So, you know, I'm not drawing negative attention to ourselves when we're in public. It's just when we're in private, this is how I express myself. And I don't know.

I mean, it was just something that I kind of grew up doing with my brothers. Was one of your older brothers, PDQ Bach or Victor Borgia? Hey, orchestra nerds. I'm out here for you too, buddies. All right.

Look, if I rule in your favor, what do you want to have happen here? What I would like to have happen is to be able to express myself via the conducting without being criticized. That's all. here? What I would like to have happen is to be able to express myself via the conducting without being criticized. That's all. You want shirts to not be able to say anything about it? Yes. And shirts, what do you want to have happen? You want him to stop doing this altogether? No, I want him to stop doing the floppy wrists. Stop doing the floppy wrists?

Yeah. I want him to be able to take at least one point of criticism from someone who spends their whole, like, almost all of their life working on classical music to just take one criticism, and then he can do his thing. And so it doesn't bother me. All right. I think I'm ready to make my judgment. I'm going to go into chambers and think about how I'm going to word this, and then I'll come back. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jake, this sounds like a very fine point that your loving wife objects to. Why haven't you just stiffened up those rings? If I was making fun of it, I would be willing to do it. But I feel like if it's self-expression, I don't think that I should have to. I don't think that in the privacy of our home or in our car, I should have to put any sort of restraint around that. Erica, do you believe that he's just expressing himself?

But if it comes at the cost of really bothering someone, then I think he could express himself with one critique and make us both happy. But he refuses to compromise. Jake, how do you see your chances in both this case and, frankly, in your marriage? Well, in our marriage, think um better than the case i'll say that i i'm not really anticipating a positive ruling in my favor from judge hodgman i'll be honest please rise as judge john hodgman re-enters the courtroom so I've been thinking a lot about this, and I believe you, Jake Frost, that you are not actively trying to get your wife's goat on purpose, but you are doing it anyway. And it's hard to think about how to rule in favor of someone who wants to essentially say, who wants to essentially continue to annoy someone and

wants that right to be annoying to somebody else. The dancing issue is a meaningful one because, yes, that is a perfectly acceptable means of enjoying music, much like singing along, that does not require specific skill, in which we do not insist on specific skill. But if you were listening to tap dance music and you were constantly pretending to tap dance, but didn't know what you were doing, that would be embarrassing to you, dangerous probably to others, and an insult to a real skill. Then there's the issue of privacy. You say you don't do this in public. And this is one of those places where marriage gets very confusing because you're obviously

doing it in front of someone else, right? So yes, it is good that you extend the circle of privacy in your life and in your heart to include your loved one and your spouse. That to me is a, uh, suggests that this marriage is going to going to last, but you also have to, you know, uh, maintain in,

in your brain, uh, that, uh, your spouse is another person who is distinct from you and has feelings and, deserves, uh, an enjoyable atmosphere in which to live,

that the circle of privacy does not mean that you get to walk around farting all the time, for example. You know, simply because that's something you would do in private. I don't want to comment on your farting schedule, but, you know. And neither do I. Right, right, exactly. You wouldn't yell fire in a crowded theater, nor would you yell fire over and over in your bedroom in the middle of the night. It would be, even though your spouse probably figured out by now that you're just pranking her, it would be discourteous, wouldn't it? Yes, that's a very apt analogy. It's a hard modulation to make between the private sphere of a married couple, especially

one without kids, and the behavior that is expected of you in a public sphere. So when you say, I'm not really bothering anyone, that may or may not be something you said, but it is kind of a gist of what you were saying. You know that you are bothering at least one person, and that's presumably somebody that you care about. All of this said, right, I think that those are all things that you should take into account, but I would have ruled in your favor, Frost, even given all of this, because I think what you're doing in a general sense, in a vacuum, is harmless and embarrasses only you. And in a vacuum, eventually you would actually die very quickly, and so no one would have to worry about it. Right.

That's also a consideration. worry about it. Right. And I don't disagree that you have a right to express your appreciation of a piece of music, for example, in whatever embarrassing and ridiculous way you see fit. But this is not in a vacuum. You are married to a specific person who has a certain set of skills, who has studied this very area that you are not advertently mocking by your unskilled imitation of Bugs Bunny making fun of a conductor. Okay? Conducting is not just moving your hands around. There is a real skill to it. You know what the term maestro means, don't you? Of course.

It is Italian for not looking like an idiot. Well, I took it myself. And the thing of it is that you obviously don't know as much about classical music, which you claim to enjoy, as your wife does. And I think that part of the reason it gets so annoying is that she knows what she's talking about, you don't, and you're out there claiming to be the boss of the orchestra, in effect, which I think is a little bit... The boss of an imaginary orchestra? You understand what I'm saying. You understand what I'm saying. You might not know it based on my career as a fake expert, but I actually have a lot of respect for actual expertise. advantage of it. And I think getting out there and flopping your arms around and pretending to be

an authority over a fake orchestra is nonetheless a symbol to your wife that you do not respect her expertise. So I think that you do enjoy classical music. I also think you would enjoy it more if you got over yourself a little bit and learned a little bit about what is involved in conducting. It would make your wife happier. It would be more courteous to her. It also would increase your enjoyment of classical music and make you look less embarrassing to the people around you and probably the children that I hope you're planning on having at some point, because I think you'll probably be decent parents, if that's in your plan. I don't want to push children on you, but

I need something to cuddle. Well, so... This is not... This is sentencing phase, do you understand? This is judgment time. No more arguments from you, Frost. Yes, sir. You absolutely continue to do your thing but

you must as they say empty your cup so that you may drink from Schertz's tea stop flopping your wrists around and either take a course on conducting or learn from her how it's done

so that you can do it properly. And then I am cursing you, sir, to actually pretend to conduct that orchestra, not in a like, Oh, I'm listening to this thing. I'm making funny arm movements, but actually listen to the music and figure out what it is a conductor would do in those circumstances. And then you can go back to whatever ridiculous stuff you do, but either, either go online and learn about conducting or learn from shirts.

But you need to do it right if you're going to do it at all in this case. This is the sound of a gavel. Orchestra tuning up. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jake, are you ready to comply with this decision? I have to admit that I'm a little unclear on what exactly the decision was.

Jake, shut your pie hole. Erica, are you prepared? Whoa, whoa, whoa. First of all, no more buzz marketing for the pies, Jesse. I already told you about that last time. Let me clarify this for you, Jake, okay? Because I don't want you walking away from this going, a little confusing, and then you just start flopping your arms around all the time.

You have access, right? It's not just an issue of courtesy. You have access to someone who knows about what it is you do not know about. And that, in a marriage, must not stand. You must take advantage of her expertise and learn from her, and you will enjoy the music more, and you will enjoy your time together more. So I am sentencing you to learn from her or from a source that she approves

how to properly conduct an orchestra, at least one class, one video, whatever. Learn something. Is that clear, Mr. Frost? Don't wait for the translation. Yes or no? Yes. All right.

Jake, the problem is, if you wanted to flop your arms around like crazy, you married the wrong woman. Well, I should have looked into that. Just kidding. It's a small thing. Erica, Jake, thank you for being on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Thank you Thank you

Another exciting case, eh, Judge Hodgman? I'm sorry, I wasn't listening I was just listening to Mozart's clarinet content in A minor And conducting with my feet while holding a carrot stick in my toes Your taut toes, I should point out Thank you, well, I studied for a long time Shall we clear a few cases off of our docket here? Yes, I should point out. Thank you. Well, I studied for a long time. Shall we clear a few cases off of our docket here?

Yes, I think we should. Here's something from Jason. He says, My daughter was clamoring for some candy, and her mother, my wife, responded that she would not be receiving any more candy for the rest of the evening. I was in full agreement and dutifully followed according to her wishes. However, a while later, my daughter requested some sugar-free gum, and I agreed. My wife was upset, as she believes gum is candy. So, is gum, and specifically sugar-free gum,

Is gum, and specifically sugar-free gum, candy? Or is it a separate item? Giving your daughter sugar-free gum is disgusting. And I think sugary gums and bubble gums certainly count as a sugary treat. If the daughter was asking for it, she clearly was trying to circumvent the letter of the law. Or rather, she was trying to circumvent the spirit of the law, or rather she was trying to circumvent the spirit of the law, which is no treats, by going after the letter of the law, which is gum is not candy, especially sugar-free gum. So in that sense, I think that the mother was not wrong to say, no, this is not right

either. But the mother was wrong to say it is the same thing. It is not the same thing, but both are equally loathsome here's something so that's that's the famous john hodgman separate but loathsome here's something from andrew on behalf of himself and his wife alice he writes my wife and i would appreciate your wisdom and guidance regarding what we have to date viewed as an unresolvable issue. I'm just, without even hearing this case, I'm going to preemptively find for the husband, because I never do. Well, let's see what you've just found.

This is affirmative action justice. Jesse, tell him what he's found. My wife would like there to be no clutter or items on our kitchen countertop. Yet at the same time, she is apparently happy to keep assorted fruits and vegetables on the counter and also a variety of other things on the counter while claiming she wants a perfectly clear counter. I, on the other hand, would like to keep frequently used items on the counter, specifically a container for coffee beans, which I use almost

daily, a French press coffee maker, also used almost daily, and nothing else. So what should go on Andrew and Alice's kitchen counter? Nothing or French press and a can of coffee beans? I find in favor of Andrew. I'm sorry, Alice, but I find in Andrew's favor, except for the point of French press coffee, which is disgusting. Here's one final marital dispute. It comes to us from David. He writes, I'm writing to request your help in mediation. the closeted shame of a spouse who insists upon using the word itch as a verb, meaning to scratch, while denying that this is in any way a problem. I implore you to provide us with your infinite wisdom and help restore our marital bliss. Yeah, no, you can't use itch as a verb. I find in favor of the husband.

How do you like that? Striking a blow for mankind this week, Judge Hodgman. Another deceptively small opinion issued by me. I just want to update Adam on Will Price's Facebook status. You may remember that Will Price wanted Adam to join Facebook, his best friend Adam to join Facebook, and Adam refused. And I respected that refusal, but I said I would keep Adam up to date with what's happening on Will Price's Facebook page. So Will Price has put a video on for, I presume, a music artist named Slick Mahoney with the comment, Too amazing, two with seven O's. He's also pointed out to Joan Churchill that the songs of Turquoise Jeep and the videos are made for her.

And he commented on Tim Bussell's Facebook posting in which Tim said, Is it born to run by Christopher McDougal? I just want to make sure before I burn more money. And Will Price said, that's a firm one. I don't know what it means. Neither does anyone else in the world. That's a firm one. And Jesse, I think that's a firm one.

We'll see everybody online at MaximumFun.org. Let's see everybody online at MaximumFun.org. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support this show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Matt Gourley. His great podcast, by the way, is called Super Ego. You can find it in iTunes or online at gosuperego.com.

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