Judge John Hodgman - The Commune-ish Manifesto

Episode Date: November 26, 2014

Two families live together in a communal household, but they have trouble explaining it outsiders. Should they pretend to be related, or be honest and embrace the weirdness?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the communish manifesto. Jenny brings the case against her best friend Aaron. Their families live together in a sort of modern commune, and they have trouble explaining it to outsiders. Aaron says they should just pretend to be related. Jenny says they should be up front and let people think what they will. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and offers the obscure cultural reference. Fire in the sky. Good God. Werewolves Stalking for their prey Good God Bad moons rising Don't pass no rib steaks my way Not today I'll be your knight in shining armor

With his bale of Jesse Bane the monsters From the sea. Look out. Lightning in my hands. Yeah. Things are worse than they may seem. Let's try my little scheme.

Free some other dreams. Swear them in, bailiff Jesse. Jenny, Aaron, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. Yes, sir. Do you swear to abide by Judge Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his aversion to communal living is so strong that he built a second house inside his own house so as to avoid commuting with his family? We do. Yes.

Very well. Judge Hodgman? Jenny and Aaron, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I frankly nailed as I entered the courtroom? I'll give you a hint. I will agree you nailed it. Yeah, I definitely nailed it. Okay, who's speaking?

Aaron says you nailed it. Jenny agrees with Aaron, as always. Okay. Yeah, well, I know because you're special sister wives in your commune, but I... Hopefully you don't agree on everything. I mean, technically, the premise of this podcast is that you disagree on something. On one thing. That's the

only thing. Yeah. I'm going to try to engage with what is left of your individual personalities. Erin, can you name I'm going to give you a hint. The song that I sang and hit my desk to as I entered the courtroom? Sadly, I knew it was a song, but I don't know which one.

Can I call my mom? I'm sure she'll know. No, actually, the rules of our commune is you may never call your mom ever again. Jenny? Yes, sir. of our commune is you may never call your mom ever again jenny yes sir i think it sounds like bob dylan but i have mixed with jim morrison but i have no idea you're wrong on both counts but you're definitely thinking along the rightish lines uh the bad mood arising didn't you say something like that yeah it's not that because that is a song that is a song. That's a song. Yeah. It's called Fire in the Sky. And it is by the group Yahuwah 13 from their album, 1974, Savage Sons of Yahuwah. Oh, wow.

And do you know what I'm talking about, Jesse? This is the band led by Father Yod of the Source family. That's right. The Source family, which of the Source family. That's right. The Source family, which was a communal family. It was a commune in Hollywood in the 60s and very early 70s led by a dude named Father Yod, whose original name was James Baker, not the Secretary of State under George Bush I, but a different dude with a beard,

who renamed himself Father Yod, then renamed himself Yahuwah until his death by hang glider. Another story. But he and his group of young people and dropouts led a vegetarian-slash-meditative-slash-daily-marijuana-lif lifestyle cult in Hollywood. They had a restaurant that was incredibly popular on the Sunset Boulevard called the Source Family Restaurant. They were called the Source Family.

And then they had a band, which was called Yahuwah 13. A particular song was not sung by Father Yod, who did some of the vocals and played the timpani in the band that was sung by electron aquarium which was not his given name but he he was given all of the all of the members of the source family chose their own names isis and they all had it was always aquarium or aquarius it was an isis aquarium a lot electricity aquarium this is electron is electron Aquarian. Electron Aquarians given name ironically was Frank Aquarian. That's right.

Frank, Frank Tesla Aquarian. In any case, it's, they made a documentary film about the source family called the source in 2012, which I highly recommend, particularly for people who are living in communes. And here's why. Everything about this social experiment of

living together and serving vegetarian food to John Lennon and making a bunch of money and living together in a house in the Hollywood Hills and hang gliding to death, all of it sounds like a cult, right? It all sounds like a cult because this guy was a very charismatic leader who had many wives, many children by these many wives. He sort of isolated his followers from their families and their lives. But as far as I can tell from this movie, everyone who came out of it after he passed away, with a few people, with the exception of a few, were basically like, yeah, that was okay. I had a good time in that cult and now I feel better.

And I learned a lot of things. No one, no one died except the leader. No one was murdered. And, and on the whole, everyone was like, yeah,

I lost some pounds and it felt, I felt pretty good to wear a robe for a while. I interviewed Maria Demopolis and Jody will, will Willie. I can't remember the directors of the film. They can, I asked them that more or less directly, like the whole process of doing it made them kind of wish they had been in it. That's it. Yeah, it's an incredible. I'm sure as documentary filmmakers, they were initially very pissed off and they couldn't find someone going, this guy was a monster. And I do think that one of the women who had a romantic relationship and maybe a child by him did end up feeling like, I was emotionally terrorized by this guy. But that happens in all kinds of non-communal living situations all the time. That wasn't particularly unusual. And for the most part, everyone was like, yeah, it was a good time. And now the documentary

filmmakers are like, I wish I was in that cult. So I guess what I'm saying is, listeners of Judge John Hodgman, is I bought a ranch. I have a ranch in the hills of western Massachusetts. It's got a nice big house in it. I've got 500 cots and the beginnings of a kombucha factory. And anyone wants to come out into the woods with me and make kombucha and join my rock band. It's not a rock band so much as it's a scat singing quartet or quintet. I mean, it's all democratic. We'll all decide together how many people are going to be in the scat singing chorus.

But it's going to be a crazy dildidididis, skididididibapadap. And that's how we're going to talk. We're not even going to talk English, which is the slave language anymore. We're going to talk our own, just improvise, our own. I'm down. I want to go. Okay, Jenny, I think you didn't realize I was addressing you then. I'm sorry, sir. You're not attuned to my language yet.

But, Jenny, I'll speak the old language to you then. We can do Esperante if you want. Don't make an empty promise, Jenny. Okay, I won't. I'm sorry, sir. If there's one thing Father Hodge does not appreciate, it is glibness and deception. So were you telling the truth? Can you speak Esperanto?

No, sir. I'm a liar. I apologize. Okay, then you have to go into the closet for a few minutes. Yes, sir. Go into the blacklight closet and close the door and sit on the beanbag and look at the poster and think about your sins. Now I'll talk to Aaron instead.

Aaron, Jenny brings this case against you. Yes. Unfortunately. Yes. You guys live together. We do just together as roommates, but when your husbands and children all live together in one house of small

house, yes, a small house. Where is it? It's in New Jersey, northern New Jersey. We just moved here about six months ago. Sure. Well, what state were you chased out of by the local police?

West Virginia, where, surprisingly, we did not live together. Oh, interesting. But Jenny moved. My husband and I moved to West Virginia. So then Jenny and her husband Stretch, they moved from Oklahoma to West Virginia. They lived in our house, which was much larger at that time, for a short while. And then they moved in across the street. Erin, you are obsessed with the size of houses.

You should really get beyond your superficial material obsessions and just be glad you're living with people who love you and support you. Babysit my kids. You're right. And watch love you and support you. Babysit my kids. You're right. And watch your children and control your movements. Okay, Jenny, you can come out of the isolation beanbag pod and talk to me. What's your beef against Aaron? What's the problem here? Okay, well, the problem is that we surprisingly spend a lot of time together outside of our house and whenever we meet other people

they'll ask us how do we know each other a lot of times i'll ask if we're sisters and erin wants to have some sort of she wants to just go with it say i'm her kid's aunt say i'm her sister so she doesn't have to explain things and make it weird but i just want to embrace the weirdness just say we're just friends. We will not just friends because that makes people think it's more than that, too. But just that we're friends. We live together in a commune. It's fine. You want to you want to embrace the truth and you want to embrace the weirdness. And now you understand that truth is weirdness, right? Right. Right. Cogitate on that for a minute while I get back to Erin.

Totally. What's the problem with embracing the truth of your situation, Erin? Why don't you want to tell your neighbors and the other moms at the playground that you guys live in all in one groovy conversation pit together or what? Well, I do tell everybody, but then it turns into this like, well, yeah, I mean, well, I mean, not that we live in the same room. I mean, we both have husbands. Like, we had a contractor come in, and they're putting a new hot water tank in.

So I said, well, the boys shower at the same time. Well, they thought I was saying that the men shower together, but they just shower in different showers. And it just all turns into a very non-coherent thought. You're saying to me that the contractor you hired to redo your bathroom in northern New Jersey did not have an intuitive grasp of your communal living situation? No, and the neighbors, like, they're like, it's none of my business, stop telling me.

Right, they did say it's none of our business, as if you were trying to cover up some super secret. Whatever you do, it's okay. It's your business. We're not really watching anything. Well, let me get to the bottom a little bit of what your business is. Erin, first of all, that's your commune name? Erin, what's your original name?

My given name is Erin. Shockingly, I know. I haven't come up with anything better. What kind of mind cult is this? You don't have an alias yet? No. At least at the bare minimum, tell me that you have a special recipe for salad dressing. No. Some people call me mom. Most people call me mom. Most people call you mom you mom okay so that's what i'm talking about that's what we're trying to get to here so you're right oh good yeah i do have a name we do all call her mom or mama yeah yeah all right so your so your commune name is mama yeah laser no i'm not done yet your full commune name is mama laser light show okay yes all right and jenny your

golden rod battle star pegasus okay i love it all right good now mama who calls you mom who calls you mama people just in the house or outside the house as well uh well we don't have any friends yet in northern new jersey can you believe it shockingly but back in west virginia you know our friends tended to yell hey mama but you know it's Shockingly. But back in West Virginia, you know, our friends tended to yell, hey, mama. But, you know, it's because they had kids too, maybe. I don't know. How old are you, mama? I'm 36.

36 years old. And you're married to, what is your husband's name? Whenever we first met him. First of all, you're married to an idea. uh we whenever we first first of all you're married to an idea and and then but your but your earth body is married to your husband and his name is what dennis i'm i'm married to the ideal of social and cosmic justice but my earth body is married to dennis yes i got it and how many kids do you have two all right and and how old is jenny jenny is about to be 36 at the end of the month so i'm 35 and she's married to stretch did i hear that properly yeah and he has a real name his real name is daniel but when aaron and

i met him we met him together. And that also sounds weird. But we already knew too many Daniels. So, like, right upon meeting him, Aaron said, no, your name is Stretch. And so that's what we've called him since. I didn't expect to marry him. So we didn't know. I didn't even notice that a new person started talking.

That's how beautiful your identities have melded together at this point. But you suddenly made reference to Aaron. And I realized Jenny was talking. Erin, you named Jenny's husband Stretch. Erin, are you? Mama. Mom. I didn't even realize.

Mama's the cult leader in this situation. She is. She is. She totally is. I can't deny that. Jenny, first of all, do you need any help? No, I'm voluntarily in this relationship this family-ish relationship uh-huh and how did this family-ish relationship come about so we met

when we were in college we were on the i was on the student newspaper and then aaron joined and that's how we met and then we ended up being friends we lived or we went into AmeriCorps, of course, because we're hippies. And then when we shared an apartment together and then we met the husbands because there was a Marine base in the city. And so there were a ton of Marines around. We ended up meeting our husbands and they moved to separate states when they got out of the Marine Corps and we followed them. and they moved to separate states when they got out of the Marine Corps, and we followed them. And then we eventually, when we lived in West Virginia across the street from each other,

Aaron and I started talking about moving together somewhere. Because our husbands were both looking for new jobs, and we thought we could move somewhere together and share a house and share finances and just have us all together there. And so you did. Now, just a little bit. Let me understand this. Two hippie girls from college. What college did you go to? The University of Pittsburgh at Johnstown.

Okay. I don't know anything about that school. What was the name of the school newspaper? Quick, quick answer. The Advocate. The Advocate. Okay. You're not lying.

Good. You guys went to AmeriCorps and then you moved to the outskirts of a Marine base where? Yeah. In Johnstown. Oh, in Johnstown. So the two hippie girls were hanging around the Marine base.

The bars around the Marine base. Yeah. Uh-huh. And you met a couple of Marines stretch and the other one, I think probably is forever known as the other one. That's good. And, and they were, they were stationed at this Marine base in Pittsburgh? Outside of Pittsburgh, yes.

Outside of Pittsburgh? All right. And now they finished their careers in the Marines. Is that correct? Yep. And then they went to college. Uh-huh. And then they married us.

Oh, they got married. Okay. Well, when you met them, they wereines who had not yet gone to college correct yes like they went to the marines for the gi though okay and to protect our country and i and i thank them for their for their service uh do they serve overseas at all or no no oh no they went to uh that island one time where was that st lucia they went to st lucia to burn marijuana plants once yeah that's true i found the t-shirt you're right they went to st lucia to blaze no not yes but no yeah yeah i understand from a safe distance yes uh-huh uh okay i well i'm sure there are many marines who wish they could have had the careers and the wives and the lives but everyone yeah and their wives too and their families too but

everyone does their part i suppose right so aaron i'll i'll flip over to you so your husbands both went to college you got where did they go to college in west virginia is that why you guys moved to west virginia no my husband went to college at lsu? Is that why you guys moved to West Virginia? No. My husband went to college at LSU in Louisiana and Stretch went to college in Oklahoma. Oklahoma State University, please. And so Jenny followed Stretch to Oklahoma and I followed Dennis to Louisiana.

Okay. And then you all decided to rendezvous in West Virginia somehow? Because my husband got a job in West Virginia and then because he got out of college before Stretch did. So then they followed us there to look for jobs. So Mama, you were there in West Virginia. Your husband got some job at some kind.

It didn't matter. He just was selling Amway or going door to door. It didn't matter. He was just raising money for the group. And then Jenny, you followed Mama's charisma cult to West Virginia. That just shows what a powerful, charismatic cult leader she is. Nothing against the great people of West

Virginia, but did you imagine that you would... Well, I guess it's not that far from Pittsburgh, right? West Virginia isn't that far. No, it's 45 minutes from Pittsburgh. Yeah, it was perfect. Alright, it's beautiful too, I'm sure. It is, yeah. Which was the job that brought you guys to northern New Jersey? My Aaron's husband's job, again.

Mama's job. Mama's job. All right. Mama engineered a move because the local sheriff was looking a little too closely at you guys. Yes. And so whenever we decided to move, we asked Jenny and Stretch where they would go. So we made a list, and they said they would come here. So we found a job here. Now, Jenny, why not move across the street from one another again?

They have streets in northern New Jersey, you know, and houses across from one another. Why did you go along with Mama's plan to all live together and share possessions and lovers? I'll just drop that in there. No, no, no, no. Please don't. No. We don't share. Okay.

Now I'm all flustered about it. So our plan was, you know, if we live together, then everything would just be a little bit easier. I mean, we wouldn't have to keep up to separate houses. We wouldn't have to walk across, you know, that long walk across the street. And then we could save a little money because New Jersey is a little more expensive. long walk across the street and then we could save a little money because new jersey is a little more expensive i'm sure you can assume than west virginia so we wanted to you know make things a little bit cheaper but also it just sort of worked for how we want to live i guess like does that make sense to you aaron okay then that's if mama agrees then that's my point who bought the house who owns the house uh my husband and I do. This is Erin. Mama owns the house. And how many children live in the house?

Two. Are you able to keep count? Only two children and there will be no more. Two children? Whose children are they? You each have one? No, Mama has two. Mama has two. So Jenny, you and Stretch are never going to have kids? Correct. It's going to be hard. You're going to have to go out and find some recruits for your commune because that's normally how you build it. Right, exactly.

It's a problem, but we'll see what we can do. You have some naked children running around the house at all times. Pretty much. Really, the backyard, mostly. But then the neighbors started commenting on it, so I made my youngest son wear a skirt this summer and how much else is this truly a communal situation you think you're gonna phase me with your son wearing a skirt i was trying no it's just the truth it is the truth i live in

western massachusetts in park slopes brooklyn oh yeah you know we're not like oh whatever you do is none of your everything's everybody's business and that skirt business is fine. I think in Park Slope now they actually issue all the boys' skirts in public kindergarten, right? Well, we don't use boys and girls anymore as terms. Oh, all the children's. Yeah, all the gender to be determined, genderbe-self-determined younglings.

Unless it's a branded princess skirt, in which case it is out of there. Oh, no, no, no, not allowed. Not allowed. So how communal is this commune, Jenny? I mean, I don't want to get you in trouble with the law, but do the families split the expenses of the home? I think some things we split and some things we don't. Like we buy separate groceries, but then we'll make meals for each other. And then like if, yeah, like if I'm out and I'll buy something for Erin,

if she's out, she'll buy something for me. So we kind of, we don't have an exact split, but I think we've been friends long enough that we keep a mental tally of who's paying for what so that we kind of have a general idea that everyone's contributing semi-equally. Do you think, Erin? Yes. And how many,

Erin, how many gallons of hummus do you make a week? Oh my gosh. This is a bad week to ask. I think we ate three things of hummus this week. Wait. Yeah, we did. That you bought or that you made yourself? Oh, no.

That's usually the critical line between a commune and just roommates. Lots of people eat hummus. Very few make it from scratch. I guess we ate it. We didn't make any this week. If you make it from scratch, scratch. I mean, if you're talking about soaking chickpeas, that's serious. If you're going to make it from canned chickpeas, you might just live in Park Slope.

Right. You just got some canned chickpeas and some tahini and lemon juice. That's not that big a deal. We soak our lentils. Does that count? And I made black beans and rice last night, and I soaked the beans myself. Can I have a point back? Wow. The communometer is really going, the needle's all over.

It's a wild needle, as they say in certain major world religions that I won't mention for fear of retribution. You're jamming the needle. It's not a floating needle. You're jamming it. I don't know what to think about you guys. And this is exactly at the crux of the problem, right? Because your neighbors don't know what to think about you either. Erin, the truth, as we clearly have established, is weird, right?

It is, yes. It is weird. Jenny's blacklight-inspired Koan at the top of this hour was true from the beginning and weird from the beginning. The weirdness of the truth of your life is weird and you don't want your neighbors to know about it. Why? Why do you want to lie to your neighbors and say that you're related? It's not that I don't want them to know. I mean, once we're friends, they're going to understand. Like, back in West Virginia, everyone's like,

oh, yeah, you and Jenny are going to go. What they said was, what are you going to do if you move and Jenny doesn't go? Oh, or what are you going to do without Jenny? Well, Jenny's coming with us. Like, oh, well, that makes sense. Like, everyone understood us back there. Yeah. Here, no one knows us yet.

And they're older. You know, so they just, I don't think, until people know us, they're not going to understand. Right. And the other thing is, if I may say, in your defense, Jenny, you should listen to this. You don't have friends in northern New Jersey, and you never will. That's probably right. But we don't need them. We have each other.

But your kids need friends. Oh, yeah. The kids do need friends. The kids will make friends because they live in essentially the suburbs of New York, where you don't have friends, you have rivals for property lines. You know what I mean? And your children don't have friends there. They have rivals for middle school. I'm not surprised at all that your neighbors are like, I don't want to know what you're all about. Not necessarily because what you're doing is wrong in their eyes.

It's just like they do not care. Stop talking about your feelings. What? What did the neighbor up the street say? Like, I went to the bus stop to get my older son. And then, you know, the little baby, he wanted to come too. So Jenny brought him out to the bus stop and then jenny and the two kids ran back to the house while a neighbor i'd

never talked to stopped and talked to me and he's like oh so so that's your older daughter or that's your oldest daughter and i was like oh no like she's not my daughter at all she's uh just my friend but you know they live there that's part of the problem. Aaron gets that voice. Like, it would be fine to say friend if she didn't start going, oh, you know, it's my friend. That was a weird sing-song clown voice that Aaron went into there.

It's normal. You'd be good for my scat singing called out in Western Massachusetts. Exactly. What? First of all, Jenny, how often are you?

How often are you mistaken for Aaron's oldest daughter? I was once mistaken for her mother. And that was a very difficult time. But I loved it. I think I'm mistaken for being a relative of hers often. We used to, in college, people always thought we were sisters, so we made up fake names and a fake family. But now it's pretty often if we're out,

people want to try and figure out why we're together and why her kids are asking me for a sandwich. So, yeah, it's pretty often. You know that other mothers have friends, right? Like it's not that unusual for an adult person to have a close friend that does something with them. No, yeah, I know. I don't know. But I think it's different in that, well, yeah, we don't know any people, so how would we know?

But her kids will ask me questions that you would ask your mom. They'll ask me permission to do things, and if they want a snack, they'll ask me. It's more, I think it's a little bit weirder. Like an aunt or a grandma. Yeah. How do they refer to you, Jenny? Do they call you other mama? Junior mama?

They call me by my first and last name. Remember, your full name is Goldenrod Battlestar Pegasus. I can't wait to tell them that. But especially if we go to the playground, it's really weird. Because he loves, like when you're introducing yourself, he'll say hi to a kid and I'll say hi to a mom. And we'll walk up to a mom and say, that's Jenny. She's not my mom. My mom's at home.

And like, he'll just immediately say, that's not my mom. Or she lives with us, but she's not my mom. And so he starts it off. We're going to bleep out that name because that is not a name that I have given the child. that name because that is not a name that I have given the child. And second of all, why are you even referring to this child by a name or a gender? He, she hasn't chosen his name or gender yet. Why are you laying all this heavy rap on him, she?

So there. I know. I'm sorry. We're not as enlightened as you might think. Is this older child or younger child? Okay. So this is older child. Why do might think. Is this older child or younger child? Okay, so this is older child. Should we call him older child?

Why do you think older child Aaron likes to say these provocative things on the playground? Is it that he wants social services to come to the house? There's a good chance. He's like his mother. He likes to give way too much information. A little too honest, probably. Well, except for this one thing, Erin, Mama, is that you want to hide. So let me just understand the stakes here. If I rule in your favor, Mama, you're going to make me compel Jenny to refer to herself as Aunt Jenny.

You're going to rename her Aunt and and older child one and younger child one i guess they're both number one in our hearts but you know older child and younger child will refer to her as aunt jenny and you will go around town saying oh yeah that woman that i said was my friend who you thought was my oldest daughter that that's actually my sister. And you're going to try to and you will try to rewrite history. I might go with sister-in-law or grandma.

You're not doing grandma. Let me just say, this whole thing has got me looking at this evidence that you guys sent in. So here we have a picture of the entire group, the entire group, the entire pod. I'm going,

I'm going from left to right. I see a mama hubby. I'm guessing, right? Yes. This is the one where you're all wearing the same colored shirts for some reason. We were having a teenage mutant eternal party for fifth birthday party.

Oh, older, older child. Sorry. Mutant Eternal party for Alex's fifth birthday party. Oh, oldest number one. Older child, sorry. Or now you can refer to him or her as eldest blessed child. Okay. My eldest blessed was turning five.

And it was also our going away party in West Virginia. So that's why you decided to wear all the same color t-shirt, not because you're part of a weird cult. Right. Ish. We were setting up for New Jersey. So in this photo of this so-called turtle party, we have Mama's hubby, Mama, eldest blessed child,

Battlestar Pegasus, youngest blessed child, and Stretch in that order, left to right. And we'll put this up on the... Yes, sir. Unless you want us to pixelate out some faces, we'll put this up online so people can follow along at home. And we'll happily pixelate out some faces. No, I think that's fine. The boys are more attractive without pixels.

They're very handsome gender to be determined young people, that's for sure. You guys don't look like a mother and daughter at all thank you you guys look like you guys look like sisters and you've and you don't how could someone come to that conclusion that the jenny was erin's oldest daughter unless because i think people need... They're pulling for... What are those people living in that house? They're just grasping at anything, yeah. Yeah.

But why... I mean, wouldn't you... I mean, don't you think that they are jumping to that conclusion in order to avoid another simple and believable conclusion that you guys are romantic partners? Yeah, probably. Jenny, how do you feel? That would be a weird thing. Wouldn't you be offended if someone said, is that your sister?

But they thought that was your girlfriend? It just seems mean. No, I'm just trying to puzzle out. And again, I don't mean to slam your particular community in North Jersey. I'm sure that there are friendly people there who are friends. And I'm sure, but I do think it's rather weird that a neighbor, and I'm posing this to you, Jenny, because you're the one who if you have your way, you're going to force Aaron to tell everyone the truth about your weird house and your weird living arrangement. And the, and the fact is you don't know how that truth is necessarily going to be received.

So far I've only heard the neighbors. Once you try to explain to the neighbors, they're like, I don't want to know whatever's going on in there. And when there's nothing going on in there, and then you have other neighbors who are going like, Oh, this woman who is clearly the same age as you,

this must be your daughter. I know. I don't know how to use daughter. Would you say, Jenny, that you live in a more conservative neighborhood than you lived in in West Virginia or outside of Pittsburgh? Yeah. You do? Yeah. Definitely.

Yeah. How would you describe the community in which you live, Jenny? Old. Like what does that mean? I think that the people here are older and they've all known each other forever. Yeah, when you say old, what are we talking about? Oh, I'm sorry. Like... Retired?

Retired. Like 70-ish. Oh, they're not 70. They're not. They're probably 50s or 60s. Late 50s into their 60s, into their 70s maybe. Okay. Grownups. Yes.

Are there other kids in the community? Are there other kids in the neighborhood? Yeah, a few. Here, let me put it this way. Do you observe Halloween in whatever weird religion you practice in your house? Yes, we did. Is there trick-or-treating in the neighborhood, Jenny? Yes, there is.

And when you go around to the neighborhood, do you get good candy, like Kit Kats? Or do you get Jordan almonds from old people and pats on the head? They got pennies in there. Pennies and like Tootsie Rolls. And there were like a few good candies. There were a couple Snickers bars,

which is what I want. But yeah, there were also pennies and pencils and old people garbage. The neighbor told... Yes, Erin? This is Mama. The neighbor told us to go to a different neighborhood to retreat.

He said not to bother going around our street. You mean when you came? When eldest and youngest blessed children ding-donged at the door, this old man came out and said, Go somewhere else. Well, he told us like two or three days before. Oh. To go somewhere else.

That's when he came over and asked me where I lived. Even though he knew full well I lived in the basement. She makes you live in the basement? Yeah, that's right. I live in the basement. Will you earn your way up into the main living space through chores and self-abasement? Or will you always be in the basement?

I think if I make enough bean burritos, she'll let me come up. For dinner. She can come up for dinner. What? I thought you meant the bean burritos for dinner. No lunch burritos. They don't count.

No, she can make bean burritos and she can bring them upstairs. She has the only working stove in the house right now. Battlestar Pegasus, you live in the basement? Yeah, I do. With stretch? And the two of you live on cots by the boiler or what? It is pretty close to the boiler. No, we have, it was like a weird old man hangout basement with like a bar built into it and wood paneling.

Like a rec room. Yeah. out basement with like a bar built into it and wood paneling a rec room so we took yeah so we took all the stuff down and kind of remodeled it a little bit so it looks more like a place people would live so yeah we live in the basement how long is this relationship going to continue forever we made it 15 years so i think we could at least do 15 more. Sorry. I wasn't expecting the answer to be so quick and as definitive as that. I was waiting to hear how one of you was going to at least express some desire to have one's own independent life at some point. No.

And not simply be like, yeah, no, this is the way it's going to be forever. Yeah. I mean, if this isn't coming across, we really do like hanging out with each other and spending time together and being a family. A weird family, but a family. It is. And our husbands enjoy it, too. Is that now? Now, Mama, that that may just be the opinion that you gave them

battle star what's the view down in the basement to stretch is stretch is stretch along for the ride will he will he will he live in the basement for the rest of his life in order to make his wife happy so that she can make her wife happy? Stretch and Mama Hubby used to be roommates as well. When they were in the Marine Corps, they were in basic together, weren't they, too? I think, yeah. And so they were roommates for a long time. And so, and Stretch brought you a present after we first met.

He gave us both presents. So I think he's on board as well. I think he has a commune mind. They like to share tools. Yeah, that sounds weird. What's really interesting is that not only are they not present in this discussion, but neither one of them submitted even an affidavit. Do you know what I mean? Oh, that's right. Have you guys ever seen the Neil LaBute remake of The Wicker Man?

I watched the ending of it. Yeah, well, everyone sees that. That's it. Everyone sees that part where he punches out the woman in the bear costume online and screams the bees. But I may very well, whatever I decide, I may just sentence you to watching,

you guys all watching this movie together. This movie together, because it's about an intentional living community in which the men are never seen. That is kind of what we do. The men work. They come home at night. Oh, no, we love our men.

We love our men. We just don't want to know what they think or care about or want to do. I'll write up their statement and I'll send it in to you tonight. Just kidding. Battlestar Pegasus, you live in the basement with Stretch and you don't have children and you never will. Is that correct? Correct. How long can you live in that basement? Do you have a bathroom down there? Yes. Do you have like a

hot plate or something? We have a kitchen. No, I have a real stove and a fridge and right now a utility sink, but I bought a real sink on clearance that we're going to put in. We'll buy anything on clearance, apparently. We will. We're giving that habit up because the house is too small.

Well, that's the thing. Do you think that your family, like Mama, your oldest and youngest children are how old? Five and two. Do they each have their own room or are they going to share? They share a room now, but we

have a third bedroom, but it's a craft room right now what kind of craft do you make god's eyes and yes and no god's eyes and holistic soap no we we make our own laundry soap though i'm sure that's surprising yeah but aaron sews and i crochet did you say what i just thought you said what do you make your own laundry soap? Of course we do. It's much more economical and better for the environment. And we can't stand the smell

of laundry soap. Like how your clothes, ugh, people smell clean. I prefer to smell like nothing. You just said you don't like when people smell clean. No, like the smell of detergent.

Ugh, it's terrible okay sorry i'm going i'm going into a into a into a cult k-hole here i'm sorry i want to hear you guys talk about your your soap making all day long what wait how long can you live in this house is the point i'm saying i'm sorry sir uh we could mama how, how long do you foresee living in this house until your family? Are you going to have another child? No, we're done. Okay. So, so do you, how long does it can realistically sustainable that you guys will live in this house?

We'll pay it off in 30 years. So maybe 30 years. But you, do you, do you, uh, women have, have careers of your own? I work at home as an assistant, and then I have a small business. That's bad. Yeah, that makes it sound like it's a lie. But yeah, I'm an assistant, and then I have a small business that I work from home. I don't do anything.

Mama, you just run things, right? Yeah. Right. I boss people. And Stretch and Mama Hubby, are they fulfilled and happy in their professional and creative lives? Yes. They're doing exactly what they would school for. And they're stable professions?

Yes. I'm just trying to establish when this thing is going to break and what's going to happen. It's not going to break, sir. When we die, I guess if we all die, then it'll end. I guess if we came into money, maybe Jenny might buy the house next door. Yeah, if I became rich, I would buy another house close by. Okay, so there is... Or if it was next door. I think Mama would protest if it was not next door. Okay, if I became rich, I would buy another house close by. Or if it was next door. I think Mama would protest if it was

not next door. But we do like those Mormon compounds, you know, that are like two houses that have a put-together space. We talked a long time about how we wanted to build one of those houses. All I know is what I saw in Big Love. Is that what you mean? Yeah, exactly. We watched that.

Yeah, that was very inspirational to us. And do you think eldest child and youngest child, they like this arrangement too? Oh, yeah. They love it. Love it, love it. Who's speaking now? Aaron is, oh, Mama is speaking.

And my children love Jenny and Stretch so much. And even my nieces and nephews, when they come to visit, they're like, where's Jenny Brown? Where's Stretch? Where are they at? Let's go play. Let's go to the basement. They don't even like half the house. We don't even use the first floor of the house because everybody wants to go to the basement.

If you want to switch, we can. Now, I just have one more question before I go into my chambers. That third floor craft room. Can that be my room? Totally. Yes. Please come visit and stay. OK, I'm going to go into my into my sensory deprivation tank and cogitate on this for a while.

And I'll come back and make my decision in a moment. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jenny, how are you feeling about your chances? I think my chances are great because there is nothing he could come up with to encapsulate the weirdness that is our relationship. Sister's not going to cut it. Aaron, what about you? I thought he was pretty sympathetic to me. Why is that? Because he must have been in northern New Jersey before. He knows the people. He knows the demographic. So what do you think people would say to the two of you if when you were asked, you said, oh, that's my friend and housemate? I think the problem is, is that this

is Aaron speaking. I don't know if I could stop there. That is a problem. Aaron can't stop her mouth, so she would have to elaborate. And maybe this judgment is going to be good that way. So if I have to stop, then maybe I can stop. you that you're just incapable of saying the situation and leaving it there and instead you ramble on until the people are uncomfortable and suspicious? Probably. I think he knows the answer because he's feeling that way. Yeah. I like a good story.

I can't help it. Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman says about all of this when we come back in just a minute. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org, and they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In.

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start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real-life situations, and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world, and you get to hear this sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird, hyper-academic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now.

Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners, at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman, spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. First of all, let's define our terms this is not a commune right because you guys are not pooling all of your income and resources together and then sharing it equally which is what a the utopian experiment of a commune truly would be i grew up in a huge home in Brookline, Massachusetts that had been a commune. And I can tell you guys that I saw the fall of communism in the house every day due to how poorly it was

maintained and all the staircases that were falling apart and the terrible smells that were everywhere. And the reality is that one of the reasons my mom and dad, who were young professionals at the time, could buy a 16-room house in suburban Boston was in part due to the fact that that commune had really trashed the place. And there was a patchouli air of disreputability around the house for years after my mom came family as more conservative than the part of West Virginia where they lived, which is saying something, or at least more judgmental and I don't want to know what you're all about sort of thing. Now, the next question, is this a cult? There's a lot of beans and rice involved. They wear robes. They make their own soap. I just want to lay those details out there. There is a woman at the center of it called Mama who forces people to take on different names and is asking her best friend and her own children to lie to the outside world about what is actually happening in their house.

These are, much to my surprise, when isolated, some real hallmarks of a potential budding cult of personality going on in northern New Jersey there. Now, to the best of my knowledge, you're not brainwashing anyone, Mama. You're not asking people to cut off all ties with the outside world and their own families. Indeed, you allow your own nieces and nephews to come over and cavort in the soap factory or whatever it is. I don't think that, obviously, I don't think it is a cult. I don't think that, obviously, I don't think it is a cult, but in regard to one of the things that make cults most terrifying, which is asking its members to lie to the outside world, there is a resonance with what is happening in your house, in your love house in northern New Jersey. Now, I love your love house. I call it that because it's a house full of love.

It's an unusual familial relationship, but it sounds like everyone is very satisfied by it. And even though I expected one of you guys to break, indoctrination has been so successful. Or, alternately, you are just both and all so happy, but I can't see for a reason why this should not go on indefinitely. The one reason that I think it would become more and more uncomfortable to live your lifestyle, which is not unusual, it is two families sharing a home, right? You are housemates. You are good friends and housemates, as Bailiff Jesse pointed out to

you. It's not that difficult to describe. It is not that transgressive to live. It would only break apart if someone in the house decides this isn't for me anymore, or I need to get a job somewhere else, or I don't like living in the basement anymore or whatever it is. Or that you realize that this community and a house full of two families that love each other and are all good friends and take a lot more pleasure, I think, and satisfaction of being together in the world than pursuing their own whatever weird individual careers, right? If that community can't hack what you guys are grokking in that love house, then it's not going to be a very comfortable place for you guys to live. And the only way you're going to find out if that community is down with you guys as neighbors is just to be straightforward about your non-sin, to confess your non-sin of two families, one of whom has children, the other of whom don't, saving some money together and hanging out together all the time. It's not a big deal.

all the time. It's not a big deal. Now, again, I think that you've been given some signals by the neighbors that they don't want to know that maybe they won't be entirely comfortable. I don't know why they wouldn't be, but there seem to be at least some people anecdotally in what mama is telling me who would rather close the door on child trick-or-treaters than open it to the weird life you guys are living in your conversation pit. But you really won't know for sure until you just say to them, yeah, this is my friend, and we live together because our families share a house. And therefore, it is okay for her to pick up my eldest child from school, and therefore, you do not need to call the police.

When my child goes to the playground saying, that's not my mommy. That's not my mommy. And just see how it goes. I don't remember who it was. Who said this? This is a poet, maybe Adrian rich.

I don't know my wife and the, and the cult that I live in at home here in Park Slope, my wife has often cited something since we were friends in college, which is people lie when their own truth isn't good enough to them. And your own truth is fine. Your own truth is fine. And as a, and, and as a role models to these gender, nonspecific younglings who are trying to define what their identities are going to be,

even though your lie is obviously a little lie, a soft lie, and not even a lie. I mean, you would call her aunt Jenny or whatever, but if, if anyone asked you, if anyone scratched the surface for just a second, Aaron, clearly you would give them a long monologue of what's really going on.

Still, you want those young people to see adults who are just being straightforward, who are unashamed and unembarrassed by the choices that they have made in their lives. That will enable them to make whatever choices they need to make and realize there's no shame in doing something that is right for them even a even a little white lie which like aunt jenny's is suggesting that somehow we need to grease the skids for these weirdos who live outside but the people who live outside might not be as judgmental as you worry them being when they say i don't want to know your business maybe that means like i don't want to know your business, maybe that means like, I don't want to hear the whole long story. I got to be somewhere. Welcome to North Jersey.

So I find in Jenny's favor, I'm sorry, Battlestar, Goldenrod Battlestar Pegasus's favor. I order you, Mama Erin, to when asked, simply provide a clear and truthful explanation. I think Jesse's was very elegant, saying, that's my friend and we're housemates. Our families are housemates. Do not offer any more because you're not required to. Do not offer an explanation when you're not asked for one because you're not required to.

And then the only other thing I would say is you guys have to focus on making some soap that you can sell at the farmer's market or whatever under the banner. Uh, Caprica, golden rod, New Jersey,

Northern New Jersey, love cult. Oh yes, we do. This is a great idea. And then become a sponsor of this podcast. Once you, once you invariably make

a gazillion dollars because i know money is meaningless to you but it is very meaningful to our podcast so i don't know whether it's a dr bronner's style soap with an elaborate philosophy on the label or whether it's some kind of herbal scent or a, or sage smudge stick or whatever it is you're going to make, you know, make sure you market it, even if it's website consulting or, or whatever your side business is.

And you can make sure that it's marketed properly under golden rod, mama and golden rod, Northern New Jersey love cult Products Incorporated. I'm on Etsy right now starting the show. Maybe that's not the, you know, name your, if you're going to have a cult, name it and profit off it. That's what I'm saying.

In the meantime, I think my judgment is clear. This is the sound of a gavel. Fire in the sky! Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jenny, how do you feel? Well, I think due to the laws of our commune, I have to say that was Mama's idea all along,

and she's always right, and so I'm glad that she prevailed in this. I feel great. This is the best moment. I'm so happy. We can finally act like normal people. I feel great. This is the best moment. I'm so happy. We can finally act like normal people. I'm excited. Normal people. Well,

congratulations to the both of you, I guess. Thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney,

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try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-b-a-d-i it'll never fit

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How dare you come into my inner sanctum, which is the back pantry, when I am beating on these plastic drums that used to be full of adzuki beans. Father Hodge, why don't we have a signature salad dressing? We should. And now we do. The signature salad dressing shall be called

Pie Hole in the Sky Double Tahini Salad Cream. And I'm going to revise that. Okay, we'll put it in the hopper for a second draft later on this week. Oh, don't put it in the hopper, though. I'm growing my tomatoes in there. Okay, fair enough. Hey, listen, if you're out there and you want to join me and Judge John Hodgman at MaxFunCon 2015, which is our annual gathering of creative people interested in comedy shows and classes and lectures and all kinds of cool stuff.

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I second that vouchsafe and I third it. Yeah, they're great. Those guys are really funny. Pat Healy is a name. Yes! Was that the person who named this week's episode? See, I told you that I have telepathy now.

This is why you have to follow me. I put that in your mind, Jesse. What more proof of my powers do you need? Thank you, Pat Healy. If you want to name an upcoming case, like us on Facebook. Just search for Judge John Hodgman. You can also follow us on Twitter. I'm at Jesse Thorne. John is at Hodgman. Now a man with one million Twitter followers. Congratulations, John. Thank you very much. But now that I have one

million Twitter followers, I don't need to receive congratulations from mortals ever again. Only what about demigods? Would you accept a demigod? Sure, I will. Okay. But I just realized that's our dressing. It's Judge John Hodgman's own one million Twitter followers double tahini salad blast. double tahini salad blast.

We got to get Adam Koford on a label for that right away and put that on a t-shirt. I also would suggest if anyone has a possible recipe for that, they can share it in our Reddit, which is maximumfun.reddit.com or on our forum at forum.maximumfun.org. Or just type it out in a series of tweets with our hashtag hashtag JJHO. Now, Bailiff Jesse, I don't want to leave you out of this. You can make up your own salad dressing. Okay. Or you can come out with your line of gourmet croutons.

Uh-huh. Or a pie crust. Can I tell you what my line of gourmet croutons is? Hippie gourmet, I'm talking about, though, right? This has got to come from a cult. You got to have a crusty sourdough. You slice it. You chop it into

pretty sizable pieces. I mean, like an inch by an inch, at least. Mm-hmm. Then you just get out your cast iron skillet, you know, put some olive oil in there,

crush some garlic in there, you know, work it around oil in there, crush some garlic in there, you know, work it around a little bit and then just fry that bread. Put some salt and pepper on there and maybe a little bit of your favorite spices, maybe a little powdered garlic, if you like, or a little powdered onion, if you like. And you got literally the tastiest thing in the world. Bailiff Jesse's own all-natural sourdough shut-your-crust-hole croutons. Yeah, there you go. You got it. I'm ready to take your call, Whole Foods.

I'm not going to deal with Whole Foods. They're not authentic enough. They don't meet your standards? Well, you already got a million Twitter followers, so you're not sweating it. I'm selling it direct via infomercial. You're only dealing with rainbow grocery in San Francisco. Hey, how about that? Yeah, or back to the land here in Park Slope.

There we go. This is what we're talking about. The Greenfield Co-op in Greenfield, Massachusetts. It's Sister Store McCusker's Co-op up there in uh in shelburne falls the berkeley bowl the only supermarket of which i am aware which has more than six varieties of satsuma citrus yeah these are this is where we're gonna this is where we're gonna make our fortune okay great done and done we'll talk to you guys next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Talk to you later. Bye.

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