Judge John Hodgman - The Cone-tractual Dispute

Episode Date: January 21, 2011

The manufacture of a food truck awning leads to a Portland-infused nightmare.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week's case, the cone tractual dispute. Plaintiff Amy's best friend Gus opened a truck serving food in waffle cones. She spent 40 hours in his basement sewing an awning for the truck and alleges that she was promised compensation in the form of food in cones. Gus argues that he made no such promise and offered only to allow Amy to use his basement as a sewing room. Only one authority can decide the case. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Hello, everybody. It's me, Judge John Hodgman. You can remain standing if you are standing while Jesse swears you in. Raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? Yes. Yeah. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that the only legal training he has ever received has been during a brief job as a bail bondsman? Yes. Sure. You may be seated. Just to clarify, I was actually a bail recovery entrepreneur,

what you might call a bounty hunter. Amy? Yes? Why don't you explain the nature of your complaint to me? Well, Gus and I have been friends for almost 15 years now. And we've been there for each other. And last year when he decided to open his food cart, Awesome Cone, I volunteered my services.

And since I'm about an intermediate sewer, I thought I would maybe sew some curtains for him or something for inside the kitchen. But then he asked me to make him an awning, which I did. And I think I did it very well. And after I had completed the awning, we had discussion that he would trade me in awning labor for awesome cone edge. And I agreed and I thought it was a great idea. And then maybe a couple months after that, he decided that that was not a good deal for him. And so I'm here to get my cone edge.

You came to this agreement, which agreement is under dispute here, but you came to this agreement after you completed the work on the awning itself? under dispute here, but you came to this agreement after you completed the work on the awning itself? Correct. Because I remember this, I don't have actually a really great memory in general, but I remember this specific conversation because I was walking a dog at the time. Usually a very handy mnemonic. Was I walking a dog? Oh yes. That's when I negotiated the price of the work that I had already completed. Very good. I see. And you believe, from your point of view, that you are owed, and we can get into the calculations a little later, but $480? Approximately, yes. Because we figured that since it was skilled labor, it's about $12 an hour. And I did spend about 40 hours on it. By we, do you mean you and

Gus or you and the dog you were walking with? Gus and I, when we had this conversation while I was walking the dog. Okay, okay. And you're willing to, and you want to be paid in cubs? Yes, I think that's the most fair route to go. That was what was proposed and you agreed to that? Me? Gus, why don't you tell me about your side of this story? You are the defendant.

Well, okay. I am not disputing that we had an agreement. She was going to make the awning and there would be some sort of cone-based restitution. Uh, however, I, I really have no recollection of any of this sort of stuff she's talking about with the $500 worth of cones or, or anything like that. I... Amy, Amy, please withhold your gasping. I will have order. I, no, no noises of any kind, please. of any kind, please? I think, you know, we got nothing in writing. And when this, the whole thing was going down with the negotiations and the dog walking, you know, I'd really just started, you know, feeling the heat of having opened a business in the fast-paced waffle cone food world. And it's cutthroat out there, man. Don't worry, we're going to have plenty of time for descriptions of your food truck business and the waffle

cones and your websites and everything but you don't dispute that an awning was made. No not at all it's it's there on the side of my truck for all to see. Do you remember this conversation with the dog? No but you know at the time I was hitting the pink stuff pretty hard, and really anything could have been discussed. Wait a minute. What is the pink stuff? Rare meat? No.

The pink stuff, Your Honor. You know, you buy it at the store. It's cough syrup. Get your mess done. Cough syrup. Okay. Okay. All right.

Let's just keep it orderly. You see, I might have agreed to anything. You are under the influence of a cough syrup. You have no memory of this conversation at all. You certainly, you don't have memory of the dog, which usually the way most people remember things is by remembering a dog. And you don't have any memory of a specific dollar price put to the work that at that point was already completed. Yeah. It was actually already up and keeping the rain from my customers' heads at that point.

Okay, so you do remember that you own this business. Yeah. Here comes the plug. Can you describe this business to me? Sure. I own and operate Awesome Cone, located at 32nd and Division in beautiful southeast Portland. I put food in waffle cones and sell it out of an old truck. And the waffle cones are something that you make yourself in like a waffle iron and roll up? Or are they made already and you buy them from a distributor? Oh, no, no, no, no.

I understand you're from Portland and you get very sniffy about things that are not made entirely from scratch and locally sourced products. I appreciate that. I just wanted to make sure I understood what I was doing. Your Honor, if I may interject something here. No. Now, Gus, how much do these cones full of hot food cost? On average, about $5. So $480 worth of cones is about, well, I've got a calculator here.

It's about 80 cones or so. 96 actually. Oh, okay. Well, yeah. Yeah, 96 at $5 roughly. I mean, are there some high, are there premium cones? Like can you upsize these at all? Or do you do truffle oil on them or anything? Like what's the most expensive one you have? Currently it's a house made Spetzla with cheese and cream in a cheesy cone. It's about $6. Okay. So, and Amy, you're saying that you are willing to accept payment of roughly 100 waffle cones full of hot food.

Yes. I think that is more than fair for Gus because I actually even went as far as to get a quote for an awning. And I actually am underpriced because I am not a professional awning maker. And I did want to mention that Gus's cone is vegan, and I was part of the R&D to help him. Well, I expected no less. I was part of the R&D to help him develop the vegan cone because it's very difficult to make a waffle cone

from vegan ingredients. And I think I helped him a lot during this process. very difficult to make a waffle cone from vegan ingredients. And, you know, I think I helped him a lot during this process and... She certainly ate a lot of the cones, Your Honor. I haven't eaten that many because you won't give me any because you won't have... We won't start my cone tab. Permission to treat this witness as hostile.

No, you don't have permission to do anything. I will treat you both as hostile if you don't stop talking over each other. Goodness gracious. This is not how we do things in Park Slope, Brooklyn, do anything. I will treat you both as hostile if you don't stop talking over each other. Goodness gracious. This is not how we do things in Park Slope, Brooklyn, my friends. I apologize, Your Honor. Oh, boy, oh, boy. Now, wait a minute.

So, but you're willing to accept 100 cones full of hot food as payment? Yes. Is that fair for you? I mean, you understand that outside of Portland we trade in money. Yes, because we're friends and I want to support his business. And I did so by making this awning to protect his customers from the elements. And I think it's fair. You sent me some evidence, right? I sent you exhibits A through F. Very comprehensive. Let's see here. You sent me a quote here, 15 by six foot cover, only $685. Okay. So that was your quote for a

professionally made awning. Yes. And you sent in some pictures here of you doing this labor. Yes. All right. I have exhibit A. Do you give me permission to enter these exhibits onto the worldwide web for people to review as they perhaps listen to this podcast? Yes. All right. Very well. So exhibit A is a picture of the truck, awesome cone. And there is the awning and it is orange. It says awesome cone on it. And here is a picture of you at work in what looks like a sweatshop of some kind or perhaps an underground bunker. What is this space? This is Gus's basement that he contends was the trade. As you can see, I can't really make us after sewing there for 40 hours, I realized that it's not a good sewing room. So cause I think Gus is part of Gus's defense besides the fact that he was abusing cough syrup is that we had made an original deal that

I would use the basement as a sewing room. But as you can see, it's not suitable for a sewing room. Why is it not suitable for a sewing room? Well, this picture was taken July 1st, and I'm wearing two layers of clothing. It's the middle of summer because it's kind of cool down there. And during the wintertime, it's downright cold, and it's kind of humid and damp and muggy and gross. Also, it is, I want to say say about a mile or so from my apartment. It is underground.

It has one very small window. It's just not conducive to being a nice sewing room. And now, Gus, you have sent in some evidence as well, I see. I did, yes. All right. Now, may I have your permission to enter this evidence into the Internet

for people's later review? Oh, sure. Yeah. Amy sent me a picture of her working hard in a basement on a thing for your business, and you have sent me

a series of pictures of a deranged person in a basement. Doing any manner of things. All sorts of things you can do down there. Okay, this deranged person is you? That would, yes, that's me, your honor. Right. You've got a green headband on and you're wearing wristbands and you're on an old timey

exercise cycle and you've got a crazy mustache and kind of funny seventies glasses. Yeah, but look how spacious that room is. You could do anything down there. Looks like you could murder someone there that's for sure and then you're sitting theory you're enjoying some some terrible audio book dog listening to some i don't remember what something it must have been humorous whatever it's the areas of my expertise by john hodgman you're laughing at it is it i really like you i really enjoy your sort of um your casual attempt to ingratiate yourself with me by putting a plug for my book in your evidence. And normally I would reward that.

But looking closely at it, let me see. Enhance, enhance, enhance. Looks like it's a library copy of my audio book. I was not aware Your Honor held such prejudices against the library system. I apologize. You take my book out of the library, you're stealing from me. Okay, well, here I am teaching my dog how to dance. Okay, and then the last picture is you in a kind of funny tuxedo. That was part of a lecture series I was holding in my basement.

This one was, as I recall, entitled Zombies Don't Believe the Hype. This is a series of pictures in which there is literally nothing here that is not ironic. You've got crazy 70s glasses, the old bike. You're teaching your dog to do dance lessons. Your Honor, I just went through my archives and tried to find some photographs that were particularly illustrative of the fact that my basement's a pretty cool place. And what is your dog's name, Meta? You got burned. Is that an actual dog or is that a dog in quotation marks?

Sorry. So you're saying that the basement is very nice is what you're saying. Yeah, it's great down there. Yeah, it's great down there. And that therefore the cost of Amy's labor should be lessened by your willingness to let her sit in your basement for 40 hours. In my cool ass basement, yes. She should be paying me, Your Honor. And now, Amy, you also sent me an evidence, a transcript of a chat that you had with your friend, Gus? Yes.

With regard to preparing the evidence, you wanted to go over and take pictures. Is that right? Yes. So earlier this week, we were on Gchat, and I asked him if I could come over to take pictures of his basement, and he refused. And I think that kind of implies his guilt

because he didn't want me to photograph the basement because it's such a horrible place. Amy, will you read this transcript with me? Yes. I'll play the role of Gus. You play the role of you. Okay. Also, can I come by your house to photograph your basement? No. Okay. Can I come over your house to say hello and then go to the basement for a few minutes? No.

Okay. Can I come to your house to give Boris a hug and then leave the living room for a few minutes? No. Okay, can I come to your house and give Boris a hug and then leave the living room for a few minutes? Sure. How does Friday night sound? Just to let everybody know, this podcast now is taking place Friday morning, so Friday night wouldn't work for the case. Thank you very much.

That was very dramatic. Thank you. Gus, how did I do? Did I capture your particular brand of unrelenting sarcasm? You did pretty good. I don't know if you really captured the entire tone of the conversation as it originally happened, but you did fine. And then you received a text from Gus's wife. Is that right? Yes. Approximately seven minutes later. And she wrote, I want you to know that I don't approve of you taking pics

of our basement. Yes. Can you explain that, Gus? Oh, yeah. Well, she's a little sensitive about the basement. She wanted to slap some paint on the walls and clean it up a little before. Pictures of it went on the internet, you know. I see. Too late for that now, I guess.

Right. I mean, she might not approve pictures on the internet of a crazy person In a basement doing crazy things Yeah, she doesn't even know I'm doing this podcast So, yeah Alright One last question before I make my judgment Gus, I see you In the basement, particularly

The picture of you on the 70s era Xercycle In the sleeveless t-shirt and the green headband. And in the background underneath the terrible depressing insulation and what I call the killing corner.

Oh, no, that's. There's a bolt of orange fabric. Yeah. And that fabric presumably is that the same fabric that was used for the awning?

Oh, the awning? Yes, it is. Who paid for the fabric? Oh, dude, I did. I paid for everything. I designed the whole thing. I built the is. Who paid for the fabric? Oh, dude, I did. I paid for everything. I designed the whole thing. I built the frame. I even did the lettering. Basically, all Amy did was sit there and, you know, kind of sew stuff together.

That's a lie. I designed the awning. Order, order. I will have order. At least half of this jurisdiction is on the East Coast, and we do things in order here. Gus, I'm going to punch you so hard next time I see you. Yeah, yeah. Well, order, order. Bailiff Jesse, restrain the defendants and complainants. Restrain?

You're restrained. God dang it. Imaginary restraints. Those are imaginary restraints. You have to abide them. All right. Hey, shut your pie holes. Whoa, whoa, easy there, Bailiff Jesse.

Boy, everything. Everyone's on the drank today. Am I the only one who's not drinking cough syrup? We're going to move into the final statement phase and I want you guys to keep it clean. Gus, I'm going to ask you a, well, Amy, you make your final statement. Then I'm going to go to Gus. Amy, go. Well, I think that I've proven my case really well. And Gus owes me lots of food and cones. That is all. All right. You know, I just want her to admit that my basement is pretty cool. It's a rocking place.

And I don't know why she doesn't want to sew down there. And, yeah, you know, I'll give her some food and cones. Maybe not like $400 worth, but, you know, a smaller amount perhaps. She wants $480. I think she should get $170. And she can, of course, feel free to come sew in the basement whenever she wants. So you're offering 60 cones full of hot food and use of basement, but not taking pictures without your wife's permission,

presumably. Before I go to my chambers to make my decision, I think I have all the information I need, but I want to ask a very serious question of you both and you, Gus, specifically. I know how you guys do things in Portland, and I know that you so far have seemed to be incapable of expressing anything sincerely without kind of a sarcastic sneer on it.

I really want to know, guys, is this a real conflict or is this a conflict in quotation marks, Portland style? No, this is a real conflict. This is as real as it gets. All right. Good. Good. OK. I'm going to go into my chambers. I'm going to think it over and then I'm going to come back and I'm going to make a decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Gus, why don't you want to give your friend free food? You know, Bailiff Thorne, honestly, I'm probably going to end up giving her free food anyway for the rest of both of our lives.

It's just it's the principle of the thing. We had a deal. She was going to use my kick ass basement as a sewing room, consequently coming over and hanging out more often. I hardly ever see her. It's a tragedy. If this is really just about me hanging out with him more, he should just be sincere and tell me. Gus, what does it take to open your heart for real? For real? What can I say?

A kind word, a gentle glance. Shut your pie hole. Oh, man. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman returns from chambers. You may be seated. I worry in some degrees that I am not qualified to judge this

because my jurisdiction is governed by logic and reason and your jurisdiction is Portland, Oregon. It's almost overwhelming how many levels of Portlandism there are to this story. food truckism. There's rampant Robocop references and weird pop culture references for ironic addiction behavior. There's the cashless barter economies of the hipterpreneur. There is payment in waffle cones full of food. There's rejection of traditional

career paths in favor of waffle cones and traditional Etsy style awning handicraft. There are basement rooms turned into sewing salons and intense idealism and strongly held principles about very small things, such as not letting people take pictures of basements because it's inappropriate. And then, most of all, I feel like there's this incredible sincerity and this very clear friendship between the two of you that is completely being covered up in layers of sarcasm and weird barter economies that have nothing to do with your real feelings.

I really want to sentence you guys just to hug it out the way we do it in Park Slope. But there is a matter of principle here and a clear financial disagreement. And I think there are some basic human principles and principles of common sense that are universal enough to apply here, even though you guys obviously live in another dimension. So, you know, I look at this awning. It's a very nice awning. There are disputes about who designed it,

but clearly Amy put in a lot of work, and I think she deserves to be compensated for the work. Basement use for a sewing room is disqualified. You cannot charge a person for sitting in your basement. I think any court in the land would throw that out. And having seen your basement, I think asking someone to sit in it is probably something you could be arrested for. It is very creepy down there. And while it may be creepy in quotation marks, I think most people would agree

that it's just plain creepy. $480 in savory cones is a strange payment to make. I'm concerned. I mean, you both, Amy sounds like she's telling the truth to me. And if you don't remember the agreement to pay $12 an hour, I think that that does not disqualify you from an agreement that you might have made. does not disqualify you from an agreement that you might have made. You cannot, you know, ignorance of the law is no excuse, and ignorance of your own cough syrup tolerance is not an excuse either.

I think $480 is reasonable for the labor that she put in, especially when you consider the cost that would have been charged to you by That corporate Big box sellout awning company That tried to cheat you guys out of $685 or whatever it is And frankly I don't think there's a huge Amount of difference between 60 free waffle cones

And 100 free waffle cones Especially considering that as Friends you would probably be giving her some free waffle Cones anyway and between you and me guys I think once she hits 60 waffle cones, especially considering that as friends, you would probably be giving her some free waffle cones anyway. And between you and me, Gus, I think once she hits 60, she's probably going to stop coming back for waffle cones. No, I won't. No offense.

I'm sure they're delicious, but it's a lot of waffle cones to eat full of hot food. It's weird. It is a little weird. Now, there's one thing that we did not bring up, and I apologize for this. One thing that we did not bring up, and I apologize for this, and that is that you, Gus, and your wife gave her a massage, a gift certificate for a massage or something. Oh, yeah, that's right. Given this is Portland, I presume that you did not pay money for this massage, but you traded in puka shells or mustache waxing sessions or something. No, this time we actually paid in straight up cash.

That was proffered and described and so far not disputed as a gift, which is a nice thing to do between friends. And I don't want to put a money value on it because this is a case where I feel like there was actually a sincere expression of friendship between friends that I really want to honor. But in order to make peace between the two of you, I'm going to say this. We're going to take that $480 that you owe her. We're going to subtract half the cost of the massage just so that you feel like you're getting something out of this, Gus. Make it $450 divided by $450.

It's an even hundred waffle cones uh let's just say that it's going to be a hundred waffle cones distributed over the course of oh boy probably two years yeah two years let's say fair two years i think that's absolutely fair and i sentence you both to hug one another and remember that you are friends and i sentence you both to hug one another and remember that you are friends. And I sentence you both to listen to the fantastic John Roderick song, Not Moving to Portland. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Gus, are you satisfied with this ruling?

I, you know, I guess I'll have to be. Amy, you've known Gus for 15 years. Do you think he's capable of genuine emotion? I've seen it every now and then. Well, thank you for your time. You know what? You know what? I'm going to just I want to amend my sentence here for a second, because I've grown to like Gus over the course of this thing. Amy, you're obviously Amy, your first class, obviously you made a,

you made a rock and awning. And I think Gus, I think you deserve to be appreciated as much for your incredible seamstress skills as you appreciate Gus for his mustache skills. And I'm sorry, I'm getting a text. And I want you to. But I think that there's something real between you guys. There's a real friendship.

If I remember correctly, neither of you are actually from Portland, right? No. No, nobody is. So there was a time before this happened to you guys, before the crazy mustaches and the weird food trucks and the ironic dogs and so on, where you guys were just people. And while I feel that my ruling is correct

and you owe Amy this money, Gus, I'm going to tell you something. And Amy, you may not like this, but every time you give Amy a sincere hug and look her in the eye and say, you mean something to me, I'm going to knock 10 waffle cones off your sentence. But it's gotta be real. It's gotta be real. No, we'll check in. We'll check in in about a year and I want to get a ratio of hugs to waffle cones redeemed.

What that means Amy is you got to start redeeming those waffle cones quick and it cannot be less than 60 free waffle cones. Cause that was something that you agreed that you would offer. Do you see what I'm saying? So that's four hugs to make the difference between my sentence of 100 free waffle cones and your proposed payment of 60. You can do it, Gus. I know you can do it. I think I can.

I'm going to start today. This is really the sound of a gavel. Judge Hodgman rules a second time. That is all. This time for real. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is hosted by John Hodgman, who you can find online at areas of my expertise dot com and in bookstores everywhere. The show is produced by me, Jesse Thorne and Julia Smith for Maximum Fund dot org. Maximum Fund dot org is supported by your donation, so visit us online at MaximumFun.org slash donate to support the way you're holding me, I don't feel you moving

But you've got to follow your feelings And you should know I don't want to leave just to go And I'm not trying to be hard to reach But I put away my only suitcase. And I said, hey, so you played too rough but I went down and I waited to say so. You played too rough. Waiting to say stop You play to run So you sing it the way you want to hear it sung You grab the telephone a minute before it's rung And you call out into space saying

Do you ever want to run? Well, I want to run and I want you to come Just as you first came to me Wearing only perfume and a coat Too, too much to drink I saw you play too rough And I went down And I waited to say I saw you play too rough

Now hope, well it's got me by the throat And all your bicycles are dreaming of their brakes But my dreams have all been fakes Fakes Fake song, fake song Hey, so you played too rough But I went down and I waited To say so, you played too rough So you played to the round But I went out and I waited to say so

I want you just as you first came to me Wearing only perfume and a coat Too, too much to drink