Judge John Hodgman - The Department of Corrections

Episode Date: January 8, 2014

Tom brings the case against his wife Kira. He says Kira is obsessed with proper grammar, and she comes across as a know-it-all when she corrects his speech. Kira says she prides herself on correct language usage, and that Tom should do the same. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, Department of Corrections. Tom brings the case against his wife, Kira. He says Kira's obsessed with proper grammar and she comes across as a know-it-all when she corrects his speech. Kira says she prides herself on correct language usage and that Tom should do the same. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Let me explain something to you, Jesse. Momo is dead, which means everything he had now belongs to Jimmy Capp, including you. Which also means that when I speak, I speak for Jimmy. E.G., from now on, you start showing me the proper respect. E.G. means, for example, I think what you mean to say is I.E. Bull feces! That's short for ergo. Ask Julia.

To the best of my knowledge, E.G. means for example. E.G., I.E., shut your pie hole. The point is that when I say swear them in, you say okay, okay? Okay. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite his scores on the verbal portion of the SAT?

We do. Yes, we do. Very well, Judge Hodgman. Boy, Bailiff Jesse, you got me thinking there. I can't remember what I got on the SAT. It's like I've reached a level of both maturity and senility that I honestly can't recall my SAT scores. And plus, it doesn't matter anymore because they changed the whole scoring scale, Jesse. When I was a kid, they scored you with pictures, not even numbers. You just got a thumbs down. From whom?

From you? It's a drawing of a thumbs down no i thought you were thumbing i thought you were down thumbing my my joke no all right oh tom and kira you're still standing up you may be seated thank you now for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I paraphrased as I entered the courtroom? Tom?

I cannot. Come on, Tom. Kira? Come on, Kira. Come on, Kira. I cannot. I'm sorry. It was Get Shorty. The movie Get Shorty. Come on, Kira. I cannot. I'm sorry. It was Get Shorty.

The movie Get Shorty. 1995. With John Travolta, Renee Russo, Gene Hackman. Based on the novel by Elmore Leonard, directed by Barry Sonnenfeld. Jesse, when was the last time you saw Get Shorty? When did it come out? 1995? Yeah. 1995? Yeah. 1995?

Yeah. Do you know what? I was nine, so I hope I wasn't watching it then. Youth of today. Youth is wasted. Youth is wasted on the young. Get Shorty. That was the legendary, and now sadly late, Dennis Farina.

Delivered those lines to John Travolta. Recently career resuscitated, thanks to Pulp Fiction coming out. Boy, what a one-two punch. Pulp Fiction, get shorty. I never saw the sequel. They made a sequel to it. I never saw it. I watched this movie again fairly recently. It is very enjoyable, and it is very, I don't even know how what this means but it's a movie of the 90s insofar as not just the styles and and the music and everything else but like they would never make that movie today and i'm sad i can't figure out i can't put my finger on why if you can put your finger on why get shorty is the ultimate movie of the 90s and why they would never make it today? Posted on a social media text SAT question.

You know what I'm saying, old man. Okay, now. Is it possible that it's just because they've already made two movies and one television show from everything Elmore Leonard ever wrote? You're telling me they can't reboot the Get Shorty franchise? I guess maybe so. Maybe it could be a drama on FX like Justified. Yeah, Ron Moore is going to come in with his reimagination of the Get Shorty universe. The Shortyverse.

Now that I say it, that's going to happen. Oh, right, Tom and Kira. Kira, you're bugging people about their grammar. Your husband, is that correct, husband? Tom? Yes. Is very upset about it. Tom, what's the story?

Sorry, what is the story? Am I allowed to use contractions, Kira, or no? Contractions are acceptable, yes. Aren't they, though? They might could be. Go ahead. What is that called when you do might could? There's a name for it.

I don't know. Might could. When I said might could on a podcast last year, happy new year, everybody, by the way. Just the other week, I said might could on the podcast. I got a lot of people writing in kira do you know what it's called i didn't know i do not know double modal or stacked modal used in some dialects chiefly southern i might could i might could have a podcast this afternoon if i could stop going on all these digressions.

So anyway, Tom, your so-called grammar expert wife is causing, is might could cause new pain. What's the problem? So Kira has this thing that she does where I'd say there's approximately 10 different errors that are common that she likes to correct. And so when she hears them come out of my mouth, she corrects me right then and there. And when she hears them come out of other people's mouths, if she is close to that person, she'll correct them. Or if it's like, if we're listening to this podcast and you make a grammar error, then she'll tell me correcting you, but to me so that I have to focus on her, think about the grammar, think about the English. All right. I'm going to stop you. I'm going to stop you right there, Tom. When Kira, when have I ever made a grammatical error on this podcast?

Kira, when have I ever made a grammatical error on this podcast? No, he was just, it was just a hypothetical example. You, sir, have never made a grammatical error. I'm sure that I've made lots of them. And I would like to know what they are. You could not possibly. No, that's actually, she's right. That's actually kind of why we wanted to bring the case to you is I thought of all neutral parties, I did want someone who would err on the side of using proper grammar.

I didn't want to ask someone who would just default to my side and say, yeah, bad grammar is fine. But I know that you're opposed to bad grammar. You thought, you don't know, hey, you don't know me. You don't know a thing about me, Tom. I think he was saying that he just appreciates that you are a writer. Y'all don't know no nothing. That's right. Now, Tom.

Double negatives left and right. Be quiet for a second. Kira. Yes? your husband's a liar he's already started up already started off telling some lie about how you are correcting me on the podcast out loud when you're driving through town he's already yeah he's already confessed to spinning a tail in order to curry some favor with me. But I trust that you're going to tell me the truth, right? Yes, I will. To the best of your knowledge and the best of your ability. To the best of my knowledge and the best of my ability, absolutely.

So he says there are 10 errors that drive you bonkers, causing you to interrupt him in the middle of a thought and other people to correct them on the spot. Is that so? Yes. Sometimes that is the case. What are the 10? Are there 10 specific errors? There are not 10 specific errors.

I would say there's probably a handful of ones that get under my skin more than others. What are the ones that drive you really crazy? It really drives me nuts when people say me and Mary went to the mall yesterday. Yeah. When it should be Mary and I went to the mall yesterday. I have a lot to say about that, but go on. Oh, goodness. Judge Hodgman loves malls. I do. I do love malls. Me and you are constantly talking about how much I love me a mall. Go ahead next. I believe it's I. You be quiet, liar.

believe it's I. You be quiet, liar. Another one that really bothers me is when people say, or when they incorrectly use the phrase most importantly, or secondly, or firstly, you would say most important, right? How about when people say, I felt badly about that? Well, I actually don't know the correct rule on that because it could be how you felt in terms of, you know, it could be an adverb in terms of the description of how you were feeling. Your credibility just went into the sewer. Go on. Then what is one that bothers you? I don't know. Well, I guess you could say I felt badly. I felt that when I pet the cat, when I petted the cat,

I felt badly because I have a neurological disorder that makes it impossible for me to sense touch. I did a bad job feeling. Suppose that could be correct. Okay. Me and Mary going to the mall. Most importantly, what else? Judge, could I interrupt for a second? No, shut up, liar. There's nothing you can say. You have totally thrown your credibility into the sewer, both of you. The two of you are in the gutter.

I'm going to try to raise you up. Raise you up right. What else? I really don't like it when people use the word irregardless. Yeah, that's nonstandard. Also, when people say to whom or for whom, a lot of times they'll say to who or for who. All right. Can you tell me when you should use who and when you should use whom? Well, whom is the form of who that is an object of a prepositional phrase. So anytime you use a preposition about, above, across, after, against, among, around, at,

I can keep reciting them if you want. Oh, yes, since you offered. Let's hear out. I mean, it's not all of them. It's just the ones I learned in sixth grade. I want to hear all the prepositions you can name right now. Can you do it to a song? I know some children who can.

I do too, actually. I know some children, or not children, but some kids in my grade, that was like the only way that they could learn it. What was the song that they used as a mnemonic? I think it was My Country Tis of Thee. My Country Tis of Thee. It's a good one. That includes a contraction, an archaic usage. Let me hear your prepositions to My Country Tis of thee. It's a good one. That includes a contraction, an archaic usage.

Let me hear your prepositions to my country tis of thee. Just think it. You can do it. Come on. Come on, Kira. I don't even know the whole tune of my country tis of thee. I'm a bad. My country tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of the I sing.

Land where my fathers died. Land of the pilgrim's pride. From every mountainside, let freedom reign. Now just replace those words with prepositions and you're all set. Yeah. How about I just recite them? Well, just try. Just try.

I know you can do. Kira, this is going to be automatic finding in your favor if you can do it. If I can do it? Oh, God. If I can do it. Oh, God. About, above, across, after, against, among, around, at, for, from, by. Yes.

Good enough. Good enough. Tom. That was so bad. Tom. I'm embarrassed. Yes, Judge. This is the sound a liar makes when he hears the sound

of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules in Kira's favor, though that is not quite all. By the way, I guess the sound a liar makes when he hears the sound of that gavel is stunned silence. Kira,

speaking of prepositions, can you end a sentence with a preposition? Sometimes you can, actually. All right. We're on the right, we're in good territory there, because listening in this entire time, from the dictionary, Emily Brewster, associate editor at Merriam-Webster Dictionary. Is that correct, Emily? Correct. Occasional long-distance contributor to this show, because I will quote her from time to time. Now, live with us, she's here now. She is the discoverer of a word.

Is that not so? Oh, sure. No, not O. Not O. That's not the word. Not E, not I, not U, but A. Isn't that right, Emily? I didn't actually discover it.

Well, no. Just a new sense, a sense of the word that hadn't been defined yet, but it already existed. There was a usage of the Article A, Letter A, that did not exist in the dictionary that you worked for. And when you woke up to that, when you shook them by the lapels and said, you guys are missing this, they put it in the dictionary, right? Yeah. said, you guys are missing this, they put it in the dictionary, right? Yeah, I didn't actually have to do any lapel shaking, but I just was in the course of my work doing my job, and I discovered this lacuna, and it wasn't in any other dictionaries that I've checked in either, so I'm quite proud of it. And what was the usage of the word A that you put into the dictionary?

of the word a that you that you put into the dictionary well the definition is it's a function word used before a proper noun to distinguish the referent from a former usual or hypothetical condition as in a triumphant ms jones greeted her supporters so the uh tells you that she is she is uh she's newly triumphant if it were the triumphant Ms. Jones, she might always just be a triumphant kind of lady. I like it. It's amazing. You can pretty much write your own checks from there on out, right? Yeah, Jesse, that's why when you look up the word A in the dictionary, you see a picture of Emily Brewster. Emily, have you just spent the last 10 years since you did that trying to think of a new version of the word the?

I actually have not. I haven't had to work on the. These things happen. It's just sort of the luck of the draw, what section of the dictionary you sign out, actually. So some other editor has perhaps come up with a new sense of the. Well, if that's the case, but I don't know. I'm pretty excited about this whole signing out sections of the dictionary. Should we be concerned about terrorists signing out sections of the dictionary

and redefining words? Yeah, you have to, you have to, yeah. No, you have to have gained entry to the editorial floor in the office building, which really just requires a commitment to spending many, many, many hours doing tasks that would bore 99.5% of the people on the planet. Well, we are glad that the 0.5% of those people who are not bored by that include you. Because I thought of you immediately when this case came before this court, because not long ago, you had made a little video for the Merriam-Webster dictionary website explaining exactly what Kira said that it is sometimes okay. Kira, what do you mean when it what do you mean to say when it that it's sometimes okay to Kira, what do you mean when, what do you mean to say when it, that it's sometimes okay to end a sentence with a preposition?

I, I can't remember the exact rule, but I did just read it the other day. I think it has something to do with like, when I, I know I'm going to butcher it. I don't even, I can't even pretend that I know. Emily, is there a rule? Well, um, certainly the, the, the rule really is that it is that it's always okay to end a sentence in a preposition. The rule saying that it's not okay to end a sentence in a preposition was created kind of out of nothing by the 17th century poet, playwright, essayist guy named John Dryden. And he thought that English should be more like Latin. And Latin does not grammatically. The language's actual structure doesn't allow for

a sentence to end in a preposition. And he thought, hey, English should be more like Latin. That was a popular thought at the time. And so he created this rule about English that was really supposed to apply only to Latin, and it got repeated. He created a bunch of rules

actually, and they were very popular, and they've gotten handed down over the centuries, and now people think that it's not okay to end sentences in prepositions. But isn't that what all... Now, to be fair, because this rule has existed for so long as a rule, there is a certain elegance to a sentence that avoids ending in a preposition, because we've been trained to think that this is a superior way to speak. And that elegance is actually something legitimate. But grammatically, as far as the language correctness goes, there's really nothing

wrong with ending a sentence in a preposition. And sometimes avoiding the terminal preposition is just ridiculously clunky and terrible. But isn't that what grammar ultimately is in all cases, just a rule that a person made up to hassle everybody else? No, no, no, no. I mean, the language has plenty of true grammar rules that native speakers do not mess up. plenty of true grammar rules that native speakers do not mess up. So, for example, we all, as native English speakers, we don't confuse the order of our adjectives. You don't say the red big ball, you say the big red ball. And that's something none of us ever learned. I don't remember ever being taught that. But we learn it just by being native speakers. I learned that like this. This is how it went. The big red ball. So you've been listening in this entire time. Let's bring this back to Kira here.

So far, how do you feel about irregardless from a dictionarian's point of view? That's a word in the dictionary isn't it it is it is it's a word in the dictionary that is also accompanied with a usage note recommending that people not use it because it is so hated um it's originally dialectal it comes from the early 20th century so it's not even that old and i'm not really sure where it came from. It's probably a blending of irrespective and regardless. And yeah, it's one that people should avoid. And what about firstly and secondly? Or most importantly?

I don't have a problem with those at all. I think those don't even sound funny to my ear. Kara, when you mentioned it, I thought, oh, maybe I should pay attention to that. have a problem with those at all. I think those don't even sound funny to my ear. When, Kira, when you mentioned it, I thought, oh, oh, maybe I should pay attention to that. So, Kira, where did you, and just one, before we go on to this, how about, do you feel badly that I made Kira sing? Do I feel badly that you made her sing? No, I thought it was charming. But do you feel bad that you just used the adverb badly incorrectly? No, I don't. I don't feel badly at all. People have been doing it for so long.

They're often interchangeable. How long is long enough? I don't know how long that one has been confused. I'll tell you what. I'll let you look up the amount of time badly has been used interchangeably with bad in that context. And I'm going to go back to Kira, and I'm going to also invite Tom now to speak. Oh, okay. Now, Tom, even though I have essentially ruled against you, and even though you can see that I enjoy talking about this stuff a lot, which might lead you to believe that I abhor bad grammar and love good grammar, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

You told a couple of lies. You made some assumptions that you shouldn't have made. Let's say some mean things about your wife now. How does it make you feel when she interrupts you in the middle of a thought or a sentence to correct your grammar? Does it make you feel badly? Or what word would you use? It makes me feel tense. Tensely or tense?

That's what I thought. It makes me feel like, so herely or tense? That's what I thought. It makes me feel like, so her mother and father do this as well. And so dinner with them the whole time, it's like, I'm on edge. When am I going to slip up? Because I'm going to slip up. I have terrible grammar and syntax and all of that stuff. I didn't understand a single word about what you guys were talking about earlier.

And so I'm going to mess up, and I want to improve, but I think about the part of the story that I wanted to actually say. Really? It makes for the direction of the story to be about grammar. That's the best construction you can come up with. We end up talking about whether it's a word or not. And, you know, most importantly, it's interesting that Emily Brewster said that she's fine with it because I've actually seen it written in what I would cite as credible sources, like the New York Times or something, it being used there. And then I bring it to Kira and I say, you know, do they not have a proper editor? Why is this being used here? Because every time that she sees it, she says, that's not a word. So then we're no longer talking about what I was talking about in the first place.

We're talking about whether importantly is a word. Well, it is a word. Everyone agrees that it's a word. It is a word. Yes. I just, yeah, it's a word. Just whether it's being used correctly. Did you see most importantly printed in the New York Times and bring it to your wife, or is this just another one of your lies, Tom? Well, it was actually a Supreme Court opinion. A Supreme Court opinion? Who wrote it? That's a great question.

I want to say, no, I don't want to guess. Yeah, you're already on thin ice as it is. I wouldn't speculate if I were you. Let's just put it, they're all dummies. You're already on thin ice as it is. I wouldn't speculate if I were you. Let's just put it there. All dummies.

What did you think, Kira, when you saw a Supreme Court justice write, most importantly, in the annals of our land, my country, tis of thee? Well, I was just telling Tom before we started this podcast, it is, most importantly, is used all the time. And it is widely accepted. And most people feel comfortable using that in conversation. And to say most important would probably feel uncomfortable for people. But I grew up learning that most importantly is not the proper way to use to say. Most important. Right. Right. Exactly.

Most, most, irregardless of that, tell me where you grew up. I grew up in Chicago. I think that I actually may have used that correctly. Because irregardless, that means not regardless. Regarding that, where did you grow up? I grew up on the south side of Chicago. On the south side of Chicago. Grammartown, as it's known, in Chicago.

On the south side of Chicago. On the south side of Chicago. Grammar Town, as it's known in Chicago. Your parents were also interested in grammar and hyper-corrective of grammar? My mother in particular, yeah. She, from a young age, emphasized the importance of grammar and of speaking correctly. emphasize the importance of grammar and of speaking correctly. Can I also speculate that your father, a businessman, once gave you a copy of How to Win Friends and Influence People and dog-eared the page about how much people like having their grammar corrected?

I did get a copy of that for Christmas. Did you really? Alas, there was no dog-eared page. Did you get it from your dad? Who gave you? I got it from my parents, yes. Your parents gave you? I'll tell you why I got it from my parents.

It was because I was an eighth grade girl, so I think I was 13 or 14. Wait, wait, wait. Before you say this, I want you to complete this sentence correctly. Oh, goodness. Okay. This is a test. I'm very bad at correctly. Oh, goodness. Okay. This is a test. I'm very bad at tests. No, no.

It's 50-50, and you've already sung, so it's good. Right? There are two ways for you to start the sentence. You pick the right one. The reason I received How to Win Friends and Influence People in 8th Grade is because... The reason I received How to Win Friends and Influence People in Eighth Grade is that. Dot, dot, dot. The first one.

My wife is really mad at you now. It'll be weeks. Well, let's be honest. It'll be a thousand years before she even hears this podcast. But when she does. Should we go back? Should I just say the second one? It's just, you know, that's one of those that's

one of those ones that gets the grammar people and i don't even want to say grammarians because i think that's an academic subject the grammar hobbyists and pet peevers really upset they're called public radio listeners yeah you would want to say according to according to my spouse a high school english teacher at the prestigious stuyvesant high school in manhattan you want to write the reason is that the reason you received how to win friends and influence people in eighth grade is that and now you may complete the sentence i guess, I guess that does make more sense. But isn't it interesting how my hypercorrection kind of put a big stop on the momentum of your story that was interesting and a personal story about you?

I'm sure everyone listening is really glad that I straightened that out. And prevented you from telling a personal story about growing up that would be interesting to humans. I'm sure the grammar hobbyists are very happy. Go on. I would like to know the reason behind your receiving that book in eighth grade. The reason is that I was a typical 13-year-old girl, and I think I was reading some teen magazine, maybe 17 or something. And in the very back, there were, I think, different ads or just listings or something. And one of them was an advertisement for the seven secrets to becoming like the most popular person.

Number one, grow a mustache. And. Number two, where's bats? Number three, endow a bunch of libraries in the Pittsburgh area. I got them all. I already know this. Well, I went to a very small grade school and I didn't have a lot of friends. And so I was convinced at 13 that if I got my hands on the seven secrets to

becoming popular, I would suddenly make friends. And I remember taking it to my mom and begging her to get it for me. And I'm sure she was torn because she wanted me to feel confident and make friends, but at the same time, probably didn't want to get that garbage into my hands. And so instead, she and my father bought me a copy of Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. And I think I was confusing my Carnegie's, by the way, when I was making my Pittsburgh references, but that's another story. In any case, your mom, I know that you're a young person because you've never even seen Get Shorty. But your mom probably learned these things in school or was she an academic or a professor of English or a teacher?

She does not have any higher education. She graduated. She and I actually went to the same high school. Oh, okay. And then she went to college for a semester and came home. She wasn't happy there. And so she went right into working at the Chicago Border Trade and stayed there for the rest of her career. So she doesn't she does not have a college degree and she.

So has is pretty much self-taught in the grammar field. Whence comes her interest in grammar? Not from whence, by the way, guys. Whence? I would say a bit later in her life. We have a cousin who's a writer, and they were very close when I was young. So I would say when my mom was in her late 30s, early 40s, they were close. And I think they would often discuss writing and sentence structure and composition in general. So she had like a grammar club?

No, I don't think it was. They'd sit around and drink red wine and talk about double modals. Sounds good. That's so exciting. I bet she'd have a good podcast. And so it was passed on to you and it was important to you. Yes. Now, Tom, how come you're such a dum-dum?

How come you can't talk the way your wife wants you to? Here's what I would argue. I speak for the majority. I think that very few people know these particular rules about is importantly a word when using it in a certain context is irregardless a word. And so I just am having conversations with people. Kira is extremely intelligent and she's a great editor, and I've actually had her edit certain important documents of mine. But this is in a personal setting. telling stories, I don't think that it's that important to pay close attention to each other's verbiage and should just relax, enjoy the story and go with it.

I think you meant to say verbiage. Yeah, well, you don't think it's important to talk good in front of your parents-in-law? I appreciated that you waited till the end of my sentence to correct me. And, uh, I think that's pretty important. All right. And, and you say that, that Kira also corrects people mid-sentence who are not you? Yeah, but, but this isn't like she'll stand up and object and start screaming at the person. So we'll be watching a movie and she'll lean over and tell me what the correct usage would have been. Yeah, she's interrupting your enjoyment of the movie. Right?

She's not embarrassing the people in the movie. They're not really there with you. Not at all. No. Is there a time when it is not you that she is correcting in front of other people or even just in conversation? Only very close friends. A pal, a friend, a very close friend. Otherwise, she keeps her peace?

Yes. But she does tell me that the person was wrong. She doesn't tell the other person, though. I see. And you have no interest. Well, here's the thing. I would say my grammar has improved in the time, in the years that we've known each other. So I'm not going to say that I wish that it was gone entirely.

I just think that there's a time and a place for it. Emily Brewster, are you still there? I am. Do you have a ruling on badly? I do, I do. I also have thoughts on the pronunciation of Tom's word that you corrected, and verbiage is an acceptable pronunciation of the word. Oh, I'm so glad that that's true. Acceptable to whom? I had a feeling that that was probably true. And I'm so glad that you called me out on my mindless pedantry. Thank you.

Now, what else? What else have you got for me? I was thinking more about badly. And I don't really know how old it is. It seems like it's, from what I can tell, it dates to the early 19th century, the feel badly notion, that construction. Now, the odd thing about it is that feel in this case is a linking verb, and linking verbs usually have adjectives on the other ends of them. So I feel sick. It seems cold. That's the usual construction. So when we get I feel badly, we're putting something that looks a lot like an adverb in a position that's usually filled by an adjective.

So that's what's strange about it, and that's why it kind of sticks out to us. I feel bad is definitely more commonly accepted, more likely to be encountered in published, edited text. As a personal statement with me, I don't know how universal it is. edited text. As a personal statement with me, I don't know how universal it is. People could be driving off the road right now in rage that I, that I,

that I am judging everybody who says I feel badly. Come on, Judge Hodgman. They're not driving off the road in rage. It's not like we're chewing on microphone. You just, you just, you just wait,

bailiff Jesse, you got yours coming. What do you, what do you think about me and him? Well, no. Yeah. No. In informal use, it's all fine and good. or if you're writing something down that is going to have an audience that possibly cares about grammar and English and usage, then you should avoid it. Like if you're trying to win friends or influence people?

Because I know... What kind of friends are you trying to win? I happen to know a guy who says me and him all the time. Specifically, he says me and my friend and podcast partner, Jordan Morris, a lot. And every time he says it, I grit my teeth. Irregardlessly, me and him have never talked about it. But we're going to after I come back from my chambers where I'm going to pour through my my various tomes of grammar and I'll render my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Tom, you brought this case. How are you feeling right now? I'm not feeling too good. I thought I had the easier argument. Then you started lying. I just think that the judge has an appreciation for grammar, but I also think that he appreciates a good conversation, which can be interrupted in a number of ways. One of those is correcting other people's grammar. Do you lie a lot in your regular life, or is it just something you say for podcasts? If I lied a lot, I wouldn't tell you about it. Kira, how are you feeling? I don't know. Not great. I think really at the heart of this argument, I really just want what's best for Tom.

I want him to sound as smart as he really is and be, you know, the best version of himself for everyone around him. And I really, I just want him to be the best he can be. Have you thought about buying him a book? I have a couple suggestions. How to win friends and influence people. Tom, there are seven habits you can learn and Kira can teach them to you. I got the audio book. Well, we'll find out what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne.

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Rules and restrictions apply. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're Made In, Made In.

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So obviously, if you have a certain kind of diseased mind, there is a pleasure that you can take from grammar because it is ultimately just rules. And it is not just rules, but it is a system of interlocking rules that affect one another. And people who like to solve puzzles, people who like how systems work, tend to also like grammar because you like their arbitrary strictures and your strange exceptions. You like talking about them. Can you say this? Can you say that? It's fun for a certain kind of person that is clearly not Tom. to watch Mr. Rogers always, but especially when he's standing around his weird fake Pittsburgh.

Oh, I knew I would bring it back around to Pittsburgh. His weird fake Pittsburgh house, and he's waiting for Mr. McFeely to come by, and he looks out the window, and he goes, oh, that's he now. That's he at the door, because no one talks that way. Right? And you're reminded, oh, yeah, that's a rule. You don't say, that's him. You say, that is he. It is I, not it's me. Technically, technically. And the reason that you enjoy it is because it feels a little archaic and it feels correct and it makes life feel as full of grace and kindness that embodied everything that Mr. Rogers did. I'm a big fan of Mr. Rogers, but

Mr. Rogers is dead. Sorry. I don't mean to put it quite that way. Jesus Christ! That's the darkest turn this show's ever taken but Fred Rogers is dead at my hand

and I am the new king of afternoon children's television that just slipped out in conversation you see it just slipped out that's not the turn that I intended for this particular line of reasoning to take, but it did slip out

because what I was trying to point out is that rules and systems change and evolve over time. And I celebrate the life of Mr. Rogers, but the usage of that's he at the door now is, while technically more acceptable than that's him, no longer as hard and fast a rule as it was when Mr. Rogers went to school and learned to say it is he. Let's define our terms. There's usage and then there's let's define our terms there's usage and then there's grammar right and usage is the way language is used and and and it is much more you know to say something is used is to be non-judgmental uh there are people in the american south uh who use the double modal

and say they might could and perhaps other parts of the world as well, even though grammatically that is probably not correct. And what Emily Brewster was telling us before was that irregardless came into use in the early 20th century, and even though it is marked with disdain and contempt in the dictionary, it still fought its way into the dictionary. Usage is what ultimately wears away at the judgmental rules of grammar. Now, grammar as a science, that is to say, charting out how sentences are formed and structured, right, and laying down a groundwork for how they should be formed and structured ideally should be nonjudgmental. But there gets to be a very prissy community of grammatical hobbyists and pet peevers who really like to put it to other people about certain things.

Certain pet peeves, like I feel badly, or most important. These are ones that I've heard a lot of the time. And the reason that you've heard them, but Kira can't even identify where she heard them from other than her mother, is that they get passed down from grammatical hobbyist to grammatical hobbyist, because grammar functions both as a set of rules and also as a kind of folklore. Now, there is a proscriptive element to grammar that happened. This is why we learned it at school. It was to sound like an educated person. This is why Dryden was able to pull the wool over everybody's eyes with regard to this ending the sentence with a preposition canard,

because he was trying to make English sound less rough and tumble like that idiot Shakespeare was talking, and more proper and correct like an educated person would speak in writing and language. And indeed, Emily has already made a really important point. It is probably completely acceptable to say, I feel badly in polite company, and no one would bat an eye. In fact, one of the reasons that one bothers me so much is that lots of times when I say I feel bad, someone will pedant me and say, you mean you feel badly? Because it sounds a little bit fancier, and therefore to some people's ears more grammatically correct. But if you are careful and considerate as a reader, and you're writing for an edited publication,

you might want to stay away from that. And that's a big and important thing, That's a big and important thing, because what Kira said really moved me. She wants her husband, Tom, to sound as smart as he is. And Tom sounds pretty smart. He pronounces verbiage correctly. And yet there is an element to grammar where we try to set a certain standard, right? A certain set of rules so that we can all understand each other and so that we can all make each other known outside of our regional dialects and get our points across. I think I just ended a sentence with a preposition, didn't I? I think I did. a sentence with a preposition, didn't I? I think I did. All right, good. My country. Maybe technically, maybe not. So, insofar as what I thought I was going to say going into this,

and it's still a point I think that's worth making, is that grammar is productive and helpful insofar as it facilitates communication between human beings. That's why language exists. That's why we learn language, and that's why we strive to use it correctly among or between each other, Emily? They're both okay. They're both okay, good. Among or between each other, whichever you want. But there's a difference between rules and pedantry. Pedantry is when you are going to take a few things and interrupt communication in order to establish your knowledge and your status. And that's when something that is as fun and beautiful and interesting and intricate as grammar becomes mere hipsterism. But Kira, I don't think that's what you're doing.

I think you have an honest love of grammar, and I think that you honestly just want Tom to speak a little gooder than he does now. I want you to understand that Tom is right. When he is speaking to you and telling you a story, he may speak in the colloquial mode so that he can get his point across to you. It is inappropriate to interrupt him and throw him off track by correcting his verbage at that point.

But I think that your intentions are good. So here's what I am going to do. I'm going to find in Tom's favor, and I'm going to order you to stop correcting him in mid-sentence. I don't think you've done anything horrible, but you're interrupting his movie, but you're interrupting his movie, and you're interrupting his sentences. And I think that that's got to stop. Especially if the rules you're using

are not necessarily correct. I think if Tom uses a word or a phrase incorrectly, and you want to tell him about it later, that's fine. But don't interrupt. And I would also suggest, Emily, is there a default sort of, like, what's the best grammar book out there these days? This is the thing, it's always changing. I mean, elements of style, but...

Merriam-Webster's, no, elements of style, no. They even break their own rules. What do you mean? Like, what rule did they break? Oh, split infinitives. They say no split infinitives, and then they're a split infinitive. In the book? Yeah, yeah. And split infinitives, that's another one of those sort of grammatical folklorian bugaboos

that everyone says, no, you can't do that. But that's fine, right? Yes, but you can't split them in Latin, because in Latin, they're actually physically joined. They are, you know, in print, they're the same, they're connected. Right. So that was another aim to make English more like Latin. Which in turn was a way to make English, well, I won't speculate as to the motives of Dryden when he was trying to Latin-icize English. The point is, split infinitives are fine now. Me and Jordan split infinitives all the time.

Ah, and that's the one. See, this is why it's so hard for me to find in Tom's favor. A, because I like grammar and I like this stuff. And B, because, you know, I hate to use a slippery slope, but this is a usage passed down so – that is a legacy that has been passed down so many generations. It's Jordan and I. It's Jordan and I. It's Jordan and I and Jordan and I. And now I feel the usage is becoming so predominant that that's slipping away. And soon the grammar will change. Soon, a future Emily Brewster will be on a thought podcast in the Crab Nebula when we're all thumb drives floating in space and will say, no, it's perfectly acceptable to say me and Jordan. And then Jesse Thorne, his immortal consciousness, will laugh that wonderful laugh far away.

Yeah, exactly. And I feel a certain sadness because I do feel that that sounds inelegant to the ear. I also know that when Jesse Thorne uses the me and Jordan construction, he knows that it's incorrect. The guy got an 800 on his SATs. He is purposefully using a colloquialism in order to have fun with language. And I also know that even though this is eroding one of the rules that mean a lot to me, it would be inappropriate for me to stop the podcast every time he says it and shut him down. It would make me look like a pedant and a weirdo. And those are the two things I do not want to look like.

I mean, look it up. It's in my bio. So, Kira, I'm with you a thousand percent, if there could be a thousand percent. But I have to rule in favor of Tom. Don't interrupt his sentences. Don't interrupt the movies. At least wait till he gets his thought out. And Tom is plenty smart, and he talks pretty good. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge Sean Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Kira, how do you feel?

I feel okay. I can definitely stick to the judge's ruling and stop interrupting Tom because I do want to show him that I do respect him and that I want to hear what he has to say. And I appreciate that the judge explained where his ruling was coming from in that he does agree that grammar is important or likes to think about it the same way I do. So I feel I feel okay. I do think it's funny that you guys were talking about Mr. Rogers saying that is he since I had to answer the phone when I was a child, this is she. And if I answered, this is her, I would get charged a quarter. Oh, I really, I really, I really, is your mom still living? She is. Yes. I really love your mom.

And I, and, and she really owes you a lot of quarters back now. But I think it's wonderful that you say that is she. I think that's great. You should always say that should always, you should always use the language that communicates most clearly and brings you and others the most delight. That's the only rule I think. But Emily, I cut you off. You are going to recommend, and I will allow Buzz Marketing on this podcast, for you to say what is the grammar guide that you would recommend? Oh, well, Merriam-Webster publishes one, Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage.

And it has a very, very good reputation. All right, Tom, buy that book for your wife. Read it together at night. Maybe not do that. Well, it depends on how romantic you want to get. Yeah. Buy that book for your wife. Kira, read it.

Shake off some of the stuff. Shake off some of the folklore. Learn where grammar's at today. Shake off some of the folklore. Learn where grammar's at today. And when Tom says something dumb or not as smart as he should be, all you do is mark off the page that he needs to read in the book and just give him a slip of paper the next day or something. Check out page 43, dum-dum, like that.

I like it. Still ruling in Tom's favor, even though you sang. Tom, how are you feeling about this decision? I feel good, or I feel well. I'm not sure. You feel good.

And I... You feel goodly. And I will buy the book, and we will study it, and I will pay attention when Kira speaks, and she can lead by example from now on. Tom, Kira, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching

experience. One you have no choice but to embrace. Because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running

in the halls. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Judge Hodgman, should me and you take care of the docket now? Yes, and I promise to be a little less digressive. It's just New Year's, New Year's, you know, I got a little baby New Year's in me. You know what I mean? I'm crazy. Hey, can I digress real quick before we even get to the docket? Okay. There are five new podcasts in the MaxFun crazy. Hey, can I digress real quick before we even get to the docket? Okay. There are five new podcasts in the MaxFun family.

Oh, that's right. Yeah, and this was our big New Year's Day announcement. You can go to MaximumFun.org to learn more about all of them. But I will run through them very quickly. The first is The Goose Down with Jasper Redding. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Jesse, let me take care of this. The first is The Goose Down with Jasper Redd

and Kimberly Clark, I believe. Jasper and Kim are comics, and this is a very difficult show to describe, but it's been an early favorite among the new shows. It's sort of a quiet, slow, warm comedy podcast, which is in a lot of ways the opposite of most comedy podcasts. But if you give it a listen, I think you'll really, really like it. They're two really, really funny people and really sharp, interesting people too. It's a really great show. It's like snuggling up in a down comforter, right?

Exactly. A down comforter of insights and observations. And it's hypoallergenic. The next is Lady to Lady. Oh, this is Brandy, Tess, and Barbara are all comics here in Los Angeles. And basically their show is the things that ladies talk about when dudes aren't around. At least that's how we sort of settled on describing it between the four of us. That it's in a way it's like it's like one of those shows like The View or something like that, but not terrible.

That's how I would describe it. All right. How would you describe International Waters with Dave Holmes? Well, I have been hosting our quiz show International Waters for the last year and a half or so. And it's a quiz between a team of comics from the United States and a team of comics from the UK on matters from pop cultural, sort of in the form of the classic British panel program. And I, you know, I've got two baby children at the moment, and I couldn't host it anymore. And I was thinking we might have to cancel it. And then I thought, what if I could convince the great Dave Holmes to host it? And I did convince the great

Dave Holmes to host it. Dave has hosted, you know, like basically every television program ever from MTV through most recently FX and just a billion, jillion other things. And he's been in a million comedy movies and TV shows. And he's just overall the greatest. He's a brilliant, really funny, really nice guy that I like. Yeah. If you don't like Dave Holmes, I mean, get your like muscles checked. Forget about you. How about this? Oh, no, Ross and Carrie. So Ross and Carrie basically spend each month doing a weird sort of fringy, questionable, pseudoscientific thing. Like one time they went and joined a 9-11 truthers organization. One time Ross took an entire course on foot reflexology. They've had Reiki done to them.

They've gone to search for energy vortices. They do all these crazy different sort of weird semi-real stuff. And they often spend quite a lot of money on these things. And then they report back. And they're both very open-minded but also very rational about these things. And they're also very charming and funny. So it's like a monthly investigation of a ridiculous thing. Can I do a ride-along with them sometime when they do something nice like a massage and not something terrifying like a base jump?

Yes, absolutely. And finally, Song Exploder. How would you describe that one? Would they be investigating whether bass jumps are real? Do bass jumps really make you super pumped? I've never seen a bass jump. For all I know, it's folklore. It's folklore. Song Exploder is this show by this guy called Rishi Hurway, who folks might know from his band slash music nom de note, the 1AM radio. And he's basically interviewing musicians about a song and how and why they wrote and recorded it. And then since he is himself a musician, and he's an electronic musician who's incredibly familiar with Pro Tools, he takes the stems, which is the

individual instrumental tracks of the song, and breaks them apart, and then cuts the interview together with those stems. So you get a look at essentially the building blocks of the song, as well as the story behind the song. And the first episode has Jimmy Tamburello of the Postal Service talking about the Postal Service. I'm sure there's a lot of Postal Service fans out there. And I think Song Exploder is just super, super, super cool. He's a really talented guy. So that is five new programs to go and take a listen to.

Let's see here. Five. All right. And we'll just run your descriptions of them through the Scantron. Give me a moment. Let me get the results. Guess what, Jesse? 800, 800, 800.

You got an 800 on the SATs of new podcasts on the network you founded, MaximumFun.org. Oh, man. You still got it. This is my chance at the perfect score that eluded me on the last SATs I took when I was 17. If I can get an 800 on this docket, I can beat my previous high of 1,530. Here's something from... All right, let's do it. Ariel.

My best friend and I have a disagreement about what makes a city. She's from Arlington. I'm from Somerville. These are both locations in Massachusetts. Yes. She says that we're both from the suburbs. While I understand why she thinks Arlington is a suburb, the T doesn't even go there, I have no idea why she insists on besmirching the name of my home city.

It is called the City of Somerville. It says this on all the signs and on the city hall. It is more densely populated than New York City. At one point was the most densely populated city in the country. It also has at least three tea stops. What say you, Judge? Well, first of all, the tea does go to Arlington. It goes to the Arlington Stop. I'm sorry that she is completely unaware of what makes her town so special. And Arlington, by the way, is a town, right? It is a town meeting. It is a town manager. It was originally settled in 1635 as a village under the name Monotomy. And then it changed its name to Arlington in 1867 in honor of the heroes buried at Arlington National Cemetery in Arlington, Virginia. By the way, Jesse, did you know that there's a connection between Arlington, Massachusetts and Moxie Soda? No, what's that, Judge Hodgman? So the town school is called the Thompson School.

It's the Arlington High School. And it also has scholarships every year called the Thompson Scholarships. And that is as a tribute and gift from, a tribute to and gift from Francis Thompson, who was the president of the Moxie Corporation from 1904 to his death in 1939, an Arlington resident, and the son of the inventor of Moxie, Dr. Augustine Thompson, who developed, and I'm quoting now from Arlington's own website, a syrup that he called Moxie Nerve Food in 1876. Arlington, Massachusetts website goes on to my great delight and pride. To further confirm that a few years later, And Massachusetts' website goes on, to my great delight and pride, to further confirm that a few years later, Moxie was marketed exclusively as a delicious and refreshing drink.

And for a while, this is all in quotation marks, the most popular soft drink in the United States. In fact, continuing quotation, it became so popular that the word Moxie became part of our language, meaning energy, courage, or guts. Moxie is still enjoyed by many people it says here and can be obtained in local supermarkets so that is both an example of how language changes and also why moxie have you not given us money yet come on you guys oh and somerville is a city obviously it's the city of somerville it's incorporated as a city and a suburb is not a real – that doesn't mean anything. They're both city and a town that are residential and provide nice commuting distance homes to people who might work in Boston. But a suburb is not a – if you look it up in Emily Brewster's dictionary, it could describe anything.

It could describe a city, a town, or whatever. Somerville is no less a city than Greenfield, Massachusetts is a city. By the way, Greenfield is a very nice city. As I point out on my website, johnhodgman.com slash Greenfield, because I said something bad about it at the extended DVD cut of my show Ragnarok, which is available there. Plug. Are it suburbs, towns, or cities that are defined by their relationship to the larger city?

Yes. It means something, right? Right. Just because these weren't founded as suburbs doesn't mean that they're not suburbs now. Right, but it does not mean that Somerville itself is not a city. It has a city government. It is incorporated as a city in the state of Massachusetts. That is a word that has meaning still.

And it has a mayor. And it has a major population center. It is incorporated as a city. That is a term that has meaning. Whereas Arlington is a town. It is a town manager. It is a town meeting. It is incorporated as a town. That is a term that has meaning. Whereas Arlington is a town. It is a town manager. It is a town meeting. It is incorporated as a town.

That is a smaller thing. That's all. I'm just saying that just because they both are communities that service the larger metropolitan district that is dominated by Boston, it doesn't mean that they're not what they are. Words have meaning still, Jesse. Would you agree, though, that the point of this whole thing is that it seems odd that Moxie isn't giving us any money yet? The point of the whole thing is that it seems odd

that Moxie is not giving us any money yet. And once again, I just want to say the city of Greenfield, Massachusetts, is a very nice city. And you can find out more about that by going to johnhodgman.com slash Greenfield. And read my apology to Greenfield, because I said something bad about it. And then it made the front page of the Greenfield recorder. And I had people approaching me in the parking lot of the Big Y. For the most part, not wanting to murder me, I'm glad to say. But there you go. Sandra Mack named this week's episode. If you want to name an upcoming episode,

you can go to Facebook and like us on Facebook. Just search for Judge John Hodgman. I have a couple of live shows coming up. I'll be at San Francisco Sketch Fest doing Jordan Jesse Go. And a tribute to my friend Mal Sharp, half of the brilliant put-on duo of the early 1960s, Coil and Sharp. You can find more information about both of those shows at MaximumFun.org. And I'm finally living my dream of recording an episode of Jordan Jesse Go on board a battleship we will be recording

Jordan Jesse Go on the USS Iowa docked in the port of Los Angeles in San Pedro California it is January 25th that show and all proceeds from that show will benefit Swords to Plowshares, which is an organization

that does direct service for veterans, and especially homeless veterans. It's a really wonderful organization that my father, who's worked in the vets movement for much of his life, spent a lot of time working for. It's a really great

outfit that does a lot of stuff for vets in need. So yeah, buy your tickets now. Again, those tickets are also online at MaximumFun.org. That shows January 25th on the USS Iowa. That is an amazing thing. And I have to say, I'm so thrilled that you're doing that and so sad sad that you got it right. It is a battleship. I was so hoping that when I looked it up just now on the internet, I could come back and say, you know what, Jesse, that's nice, but it's actually a destroyer. Yeah, way to raise money for charity on a frigate, jerkwad. That's pedantry for you. Stop doing it, people. Also, drink Moxie.

Unless we don't get any money from Moxie, in which case I'm going to start saying other things about Moxie. Do you have any more of those Ragnarok survival kits still remaining? We may have some. If you go to johnhodgman.com slash greenfield, you'll find out if there are any remaining Ragnarok survival kits. That's all I got from, that's all I got from Los Angeles. Well, Happy New Year, Jesse. Happy New Year to you. Julia Smith, our producer, Mark McConville edits the program. Happy New Year, you guys.

We'll talk to you next time on Judge John Hodgman. Happily New Year to all. We'll talk to you next time on Judge John Hodgman. Happily New Year to all. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at gosuperego.com. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com.

If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum at Forum.MaximumFun.org and our Facebook group at Facebook.com slash Judge John Hodgman. We'll see you online and next time right here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. MaximumFun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Listener supported.