Judge John Hodgman - The French Correction

Episode Date: May 15, 2014

Two Quebecers quarrel: should they speak English or French when they're out and about in their hometown of Montreal? With expert witness Jonathan Goldstein, host of CBC's WireTap!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the French correction. Two Quebecers quarrel. Alison and her husband Anthony live in Montreal. Alison says since her French language skills aren't perfect, she should speak English, the language she knows best, to make herself understood. Anthony says it's best to always use French first, even if they don't speak it

perfectly. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. piano plays softly You know what, I'm going to save that for the end. That's the end. Please, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? We do.

I do also. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he has no need for English or French as he primarily speaks Esperanto, the international language? Yes. Yes. Very well, Judge Hodgman. Saluton, Allison and Anthony. You may be seated.

Saluton is the only word in Esperanto I know, you guys. I was wondering if that was an attempt at French. No. I have a friend who learned Esperanto so that he could travel with other Esperanto speakers. Like if you travel abroad, there's networks of Esperanto speakers who will let you stay in their homes if you will speak Esperanto with them. I think the technical term for an Esperanto speaker in Esperanto is Esperantofono or Esperantofonico with a K instead of a C. Fonico. I don't know. That's a dying language. But do you know what language lives today?

Le Francais. On Quebec. And Anthony and Allison, for immediate summary judgment in your favor, I am not going to ask you to name the song that I began to play as I entered the courtroom. Because you know the name of that song, don't you, Allison? You bet I actually don't. I know. Quel dommage.

Anthony? I'm embarrassed. I definitely should know it. I don't know it. I knew it. Come on. Maybe it's because I played one of the chords wrong. You don't recognize it. No, I don't recognize I played one of the chords wrong. You don't recognize it.

No, I don't recognize it. As La Vie en Rose. Yeah. The signature song of Edith Piaf. Edith Piaf. Piaf. What's going wrong with my brain today? And so I expected you both to get it.

So I guess we can move on to the case. Without my asking the follow-up question that would, once you had both guessed the song, I would have asked a harder question that you might be able to figure out. Are you game for that? We're down. Yes. Are you je for that?

We're ready. Yes, that's right. It is La Vie en Rose, both of you. We're ready. who was in the cast, a leading member of the cast of the movie Conan the Destroyer, who had an international hit single with this person's cover of La Vie en Rose, with his or her cover of La Vie en Rose. What member of the cast of Conan the Destroyer had an international hit single with her or his cover of Love, Yon Rose. What ages are you, by the way?

33. Anthony? 36. How is it in French? Tant, tant, trois. Tant, trois et tant, six. Tant, trois. Did Conan the Destroyer make it up to your home if you are 33 no never i wouldn't i wouldn't

think so because it is it is uh it is uh 2014 as we record this i guess yeah you would have been quite young when it came out. That's my excuse. So I don't know. But you can make an educated guess. Anthony? I'm drawing blanks. Let me remind you, it's Conan the Destroyer.

I think we failed. Not Conan the Barbarian. Yeah. The second film in the franchise What needs to happen now Is one of you has to go I guess Arnold Schwarzenegger Oh um

Yeah I think it might be Arnold Schwarzenegger Wrong! You're wrong! Ah fail! It was Grace Jones you guys I was going to guess Wilt Chamberlain Jessie were you going to guess Wilt Chamberlain? Yeah, sure, Wilt the Stilt. He was in that movie as well.

But no, you were not going to guess Wilt Chamberlain. But you knew what it was, Jesse, and how old are you? I did not know what it was until I looked up the cast of Cod of the Destroyer. Oh, you were Googling in the background? Yeah. You monster. You monster bailiff. Bailiff, by the way, is one of many, many legal terms that we take from Old French,

or specifically the archaic collection of Old French and Anglo-Norman terms that constitute law French, as well as attorney, bailiff, jury, from Anglo-Norman jury, meaning oath or legal inquiry, mortgage, plaintiff, and John Hodgman, also as an Anglo-Norman term, for seat of all wisdom. Now, one of you is the plaintiff. Who brings this case before this court? Well, I guess in theory, I do. Say, then you go, c'est moi. C'est moi. From now on, that is how the plaintiff shall identify him

or herself in the court of Judge John Hutchman. In all future episodes. C'est moi, j'accuse. That's what you have to say. Now do it. Do what I tell you to do because this is a podcast. C'est moi. Jacuzzi. Very nice. Thank you. And what are you accusing your, is it your husband, Anthony? He is my husband.

Yes. Yeah. You guys live in Montreal. All right. That's enough. You guys live in Montreal. I can go on if you'd like. There is no affection in the law.

Okay. You guys live in Montreal and you accuse your husband of annoying you somehow. Please tell me how. Yeah. So here's the issue. It's not uncommon for us to feel hostility from employees at stores and restaurants that we go to because we are Anglophones living in a prominently French city. My husband thinks that if we just proactively spoke French in these interactions... Excuse me, excuse me, excuse me.

Oh, yes. A prominently French-speaking or French-Canadian city, I think is what you meant to say. Thank you for the correction. Yeah. Shall I go on? Thank you for the correction. Yeah. Shall I go on?

Francophonic. Well, I just don't want to insult the French-Canadian independence movement. I wouldn't want that either. All right. All right. Carry on. Okay. Go on.

Carry on. You live in Montreal, which is a prominently French-speaking city. 59% of the population speaks French, but it does have an old, historically old and significant Anglophonic or English-speaking community comprising I think I'm using that term correctly

that makes up about 19% of the other speakers. And the rest of the people in Montreal never speak. Well, well, perhaps. I think that's what it is. And you are, you are of the English speaking community and your beef is not with your boof is not with your husband so much as the snooty shopkeepers and service people of Montreal who hate you

because you speak English. Is that not so? I certainly have a buff with that. But also, my husband seems to think that if I were just to speak French, if I would sort of lead with my French foot, then we would have fewer of these negative interactions. But I think I should have the right to not only speak in, but to be served in English, at least in Montreal, without feeling like I'm constantly bullied by those who are in the majority in order to assimilate.

And how do you respond to this accusation, Anthony? I'd say that, well, to be honest, maybe she does have the right. I think officially Quebec is a French province. And so I don't know if there's any kind of legal grounds. No, officially Quebec is a French-speaking province. Correct. Sorry. It is not a province of France. You're right.

And it is, to its own resentment, a province of Canada, among many. Yes, exactly. It barely wants to be a province of Canada. Yes. Well, about half the population would agree with you. Struggles against Canada. Yeah. Yeah.

It's barely hanging in there. Exactly. Sorry. No, no, please. I say she has the right possibly, but I'd say that's kind of irrelevant. The fact of the matter is right or no, right. It's just lowering our quality of life. The fact that we're having these constant uncomfortable encounters kind of all the time. And right or no right is just not an enjoyable way to live or certainly not to

kind of integrate. Is it the case that because Alison is so hesitant to speak French that you are restricted to eating only in the terrible English restaurants of Montreal instead of the wonderful French-style restaurants? I don't think that's as crazy as it sounds. We're both very introverted. And sometimes we would, I think, honestly, not be up to the fight of dealing with this sort of thing.

And so oftentimes we would do that just to avoid kind of the confrontation. Right. Every, every time it's just, well, tonight it's either we go to Tim Hortons or Arthur Treacher's fish and chips, right? English only. Or we order in. Obviously, obviously my, my belief that Montreal is home to is the last vestige of the popularity of the Arthur Treacher's Fish and Chips chain belies my ignorance, or reveals my ignorance of what's going on in Montreal today. I have not been in that city in 14 years, and so I have called in an expert witness who will be able to help.

Do we have the expert witness on the line? Bonjour. Bonjour. Jonathan Goldstein of Montreal, host of CBC's Wiretap radio show, which also broadcasts in the United States in certain markets. Does it not, Jonathan? Oui, oui, oui. Oui, oui.

And en anglais or en français? Only in English. Se. And en anglais or en français? Only in English. Seulement en anglais. And also you might know Jonathan from his very many books and appearances on This American Life. Jonathan, what's the name of your latest book? It's called I'll Seize the Day Tomorrow. I'll Seize the Day Tomorrow and my personal favorite, ladies and gentlemen, the Bible Yes

That's the full title of the book How are you, Jonathan? I'm doing very well, thank you Thanks for having me here And I have not seen you in quite some time and I'm sorry of it It is nice to hear your voice And on your radio show, Wiretap, you have conversations with people via telephone or imitation telephone and turn that into a radio show. No, on the actual telephone, like Caveman.

Oh, exclusively on the telephone. Yeah, which I feel like no, and nobody has landlines anymore. So the sound quality of the show is starting to get really bad. Have you ever tried doing it via Skype? Because let me tell you, that is very frustrating. You might want to give it a try. I'm starting to use it because you're starting to hear Skype more on the radio. People are recognizing the sound of it as a thing.

You know what I mean? What are those garbled words I don't understand? Oh, that's right. It must be Skype. Yeah. Yeah. I knew the answer to those first two questions you asked, by the way. It was very frustrating to keep my mouth shut.

I'm sorry. I should have called you in then. I didn't use Google.ca either, like some people. So you live in then. I didn't use Google.ca either, like some people. So you live in Montreal. Is that correct? Yes, that is where I am right now. And are you from Montreal? Are you de Montreal?

I was born in New York, but we moved here when I was about four. My father's from New York and my mother's Canadian. And is she Quebecois? Is she French-Canadian? No, she's Jewish, garden variety, English, Jew. And Montreal is a very large Jewish population, which is the reason for the extremely strange Montreal bagel. Yes. It's a water-based kind of – I'm not much of a culinary guy. I think we boil our bagels or something. We do that here in the United States as well.

And by the United States, I mean New York City. Yeah. The bagel is boiled, but it's not actually that strange. The Montreal bagel is famous, like many things in Canada, it's very famous within Canada as a bagel and has a large hole as opposed to a small hole. And then there's also a completely separate sort of pastrami culture in Montreal where Jewish immigrants, instead of serving pastrami, they began stores that sell smoked meat. That is right. Or smoked meat. Or, yes.

Would you say smoked meat or smoked meat? I say smoked meat. And as a child, I had a cat named Smokey, which was short for smoked meat. Okay. Well, Allison and Anthony, it was nice talking to you. I'm just going to talk about smoked meat with Jonathan Goldstein for the rest of the time. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having us.

Oh, and poutine. Poutine, of course. Yes. You want me to explain that? Sure. Poutine is a combination of French fries, gravy, and cheese curds. But even in saying that, it feels as though it's like I'm describing air, you know,'s oh it's hydrogen and it's oxygen i mean it's like right all these things come together to create a a molecule which is kind of um sublime and and its own uh i think i'm losing the whole chemical analogy i was going to say well no i mean in the you're you're correct in the sense that there there are that in in quebec uh poutine is absorbed like air.

It is breathed like air. Yes. It is ingested like air into the body, in and out several times a day. Yes. Do you know what poutine is? Yes. Why? This is a family-friendly podcast, you know.

Okay. This isn't like one of your ribald CBC shows. Right. Okay. It's a prostitute. All right. So, but you are a member of the anglophonic community of Montreal. Yeah. And most of my life is pretty, I mean, you know, like I work at the CBC and in a little English enclave and most of my friends are English. So, yeah, my life is pretty Anglo. And how does it feel? Do you do you do you sympathize with what Allison is going through? I sympathize. Yeah, I sympathize with both. And and I I guess I kind of I feel like what what what Anthony was saying just about making life easier, I guess that's kind of my modus operandi. That wasn't French.

That was Latin, by the way. Mm-hmm. Sure. And, I mean, my trick is I speak – I always make an effort to talk French, and my French is bizarrely poor. I'm not even sure why it's as bad as it is because I was in French immersion since kindergarten. And I feel like I've over the years, I've kind of I skew towards speaking worse to kind of to to to encourage people to kind of rescue me. You know, like I feel like if I make an effort to talk in French really poorly, You know, like I feel like if I make an effort to talk in French really poorly, 90 percent of the time, in my experience, the French person I'm speaking with will make an effort to talk English.

You're giving a secret message through your incompetence that you should not be encouraged to speak French anymore. Yes. And the thing that's neat about it is, I mean, I feel like in the best of, even in English, I'm uncomfortable and kind of mincing and mealy mouth. But at least with the French, I have an excuse. And there's something kind of freeing about it. I find like a different side of my personality comes out in French. Like I use a lot more sound effects to express myself and stuff like that. Okay. Okay. So, so, uh, here, let's just do a little role play. So that we get a little sense, uh, say I am, um, well, how about this? Uh, Anthony, you love talking French. So here's your chance. He does love it. He loves it. You are a shop. You are a shopkeeper, and your shop is in the French area of Montreal.

And what's the area of Montreal where they have a lot of little shops that sell radio sound effects? Anthony? What area of Montreal would that be? I don't know. St. Catherine Street? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I thought. I was trying to remember that.

All right. So you run a little radio sound effects shop in saint catherine street and here comes jonathan goldstein and he's got to buy jonathan you've got to buy some sound effects for radio uh that you can't get you just can't get in any of the english shops maybe it's the sound of poutine being made. Or, well, je ne sais pas. So you think of it, and now you come in, and first of all, Anthony, you have to greet Jonathan, and Jonathan, you have to make your request for sound effects that illustrate how you use sound effects and poor French

to indicate that you want to speak in English. And are we ready? Go. Un, deux, trois. Commence. Okay, bonjour. Oh, hello, monsieur. Je voulais savoir si vous avez des effets sonores. On a plusieurs, ce qui peut être un peu plus précis.

précise. Bon, je voulais le son d'un chat qui tombe like a, you know, this would be the point when maybe I would try like segueing, I'd throw in a couple English words. Don't break the fourth wall, just do it.

Sorry. Vous avez comme le son of like a cat falling from comme un chat qui tombe sur une fenêtre? Miaou! Miaou! Oui, oui, des miaou. Des miaou comme ça, oui. Miaou!

Bien sûr, c'est la chose qu'on vend le plus. Viens ici, je vais essayer de le trouver pour toi. Jonathan, ask him if he has the sound of gunshots. Ask him if he has the sound of gunshots. Like this? Of course. Like gunshots? Like bullets? gunshot come uh uh the bullets come come late come late come late comic book to town town bang bang by the way i love i love i love sound effects in French comic books, you guys. Because they're so weird.

Yeah. Meow. And then pan-pan instead of bang-bang. I'm going to end scene, by the way. Okay. But you were convincingly awkward, Sean. What is the French sound effect for flop sweat escaping one's hairline? Pam, pam.

Yeah, that's it. Wah, wah. That's the sound of Snowy barking in Tintin Comics. That's Belgian. So, listen, you brought up an interesting point there, Jonathan, that I want to go back to Allison with. In your initial brief, you had said to me that you and Anthony, by the way, are you guys married? You're married, right? We're married, yeah. And how long have you been married? Nearly two years. And congratulations.

Thank you. And you are lifelong residents of Montreal? Yeah, we were both born in Montreal and have been here ever since. And you mentioned in your brief that as a lifelong resident, you, like Jonathan Goldstein, went through immersion. What does that mean? Okay, yeah, we both of us actually went to French immersion schools, which means both in elementary school and in high school, the first few years of each are done pretty much exclusively in French. So all of your subjects will be taught to you in French.

So for kindergarten through grade three, I believe, in elementary school, you're pretty much only learning in French. And then the same in high school, grade seven and eight, you're immersed in French for the first two years. In high school, grade 7 and 8, you're immersed in French for the first two years. And this is how Canada ensures that you won't be able to compete in a global economy, or at least not a global economy that is not of the 19th century, and that's how they get you to stay in Canada?

I suppose so. It's worked on us. We haven't left. But it's worked on us we haven't left but it's not mandatory for example you know and i'm i'm i know that i just made a lot of uh french canadians french-speaking canadians very mad uh because because the speaking of french is is not merely a cultural act in canada is it is a a highly charged political act is it not anth Anthony? Absolutely. And, um, it's, let's just say the,

the, the Francophones would speak English a lot less well than, than we would speak French. And although our French is far, far from perfect. The last time I was in Montreal was in the year, uh, the early 2000,

uh, no, excuse me, in the year 2002. Uh, and, um, and I, no, excuse me, in the year 2002. And I had never been there before. And I knew that the city had a large English speaking population and obviously a very large French speaking population, but it never occurred to me that I was actually going to be expected to speak French at any time.

I thought that it was just a funny novelty. They would just have different street signs with different names to be charming, like Epcot Center, but everyone there was going to say, but it's not true. There are people there who speak French and only French, either because that's their culture or they want to make a point. Exactly. The question that I had about immersion, just to give some background to our listeners who may not live in Canada, which is about five of them. Most of our listeners live in Canada and go to the Canadian House of Pizza and Garbage to eat every night. But it's a thing.

There is a reason that shopkeepers might be resentful or might take a point of pride in only speaking French that is beyond simply the baseline snobbishness of the Parisian, for example. Because in Paris, they are protective of their language, but not in the same way that they are in Montreal and in Quebec. And I wonder, with regard to the immersion program, Jonathan, you also went to an immersion school. Is that correct? I did, yeah, from the age of like five, all the way through high school. Now, is that voluntary? So you spoke French exclusively through high school? through high school? When I was in school. In school.

Yeah, and I mean, when I came to Montreal from New York, I had kind of a New York accent, and the teachers, I don't know if Anthony and Allison had this experience. I'm a little older than you guys, but there's a style to French-Canadian teaching, teaching French where there's kind of an attempt to humiliate the students as a part of the education process. Like, the teachers were kind of mean, and they would make fun of my New York accent.

I think there's something in that. I also happen to have, all our teachers were not from Quebec, but actually from France, because I think there was this idea that that French was better. And so in a lot of ways, our education has handicapped us in a lot of ways. It only made the problem worse because we don't have the Quebec accent. Right. So you won't so you won't you don't you don't speak in what is called Joal. Definitely not.

No, that's what I struggle the most with. I found when I do speak French, I end up with more of a sort of Parisian accent, just because that's the way that we were taught in school. And then when I do hear a French-speaking Quebecer, sometimes I have a hard time sort of decoding what they're saying. What was the term that you used, Jonathan Goldstein? The term for that French-Canadian style of talking is joal. It actually comes from the word cheval.

Cheval meaning horse? Yes, that's right. When you say cheval in joal, it'll sound like joal. Joal. Oh, I see. So, all right. So you basically you change all the letters into other letters and make a different word. I'm sure Esperanto has its version of that, right? Like a kind of more blue collar, working class version of Esperanto. I see. And so the Quebec accent is difficult for you, though that seems very silly, Anthony, for you to have been trained in Parisian French when you are supposedly trying to carry on the tradition

of the French that is spoken in Quebec. It speaks something of the kind of Anglophone snobbery that the French resent. The French in Montreal, you mean? Yes, sorry. No, that's okay. So even the immersion program, is the Anglophonic community traditionally separate

from the rest of Montreal? There's pockets. Jonathan, how would you characterize the Anglophonic community of Montreal, its perception and its perception by the French speakers? Are they a bunch of self-involved jerks or what? You heard of the expression, or maybe not, Quebec is referred to as... Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. That one? I know that expression.

There's that. And then there's – wait, is that from Rush? Yeah. Yes, it is. Okay. The two solitudes where it's like we're living side by side and yet we're really very ignorant of each other's worlds like i live i work in the the canadian broadcasting corporation which is called here in quebec uh the maison de radio canada and um there there's a whole quebec star system that exists here in like this building is kind of like french canadian hollywood and there are are TV stars who I see in the cafeteria that I've only realized were huge TV stars because when they bring the tour buses in, I see like their pictures getting taken and stuff like that. Because they are franc, huge stars here. But as an Anglo, and I don't know about Alison and Anthony, but I don't really know. I don't watch French TV or anything because my French is pretty poor. So I'm pretty ignorant of that. Who's the biggest Francophonic TV star, Anthony? No, Alison.

Oh, the biggest Francophone TV star. I can't remember the last time I watched anything on TV in French. Anthony, do you know? I couldn't name a francophone TV star. It's Gerard Depardieu. Right, correct. I knew that one. Gerard Depardieu? What did you say, Jesse?

Yeah, I said Gerard Depardieu. Oh, yeah. Maybe so. Orphan Black, right? Isn't it Orph and that's toronto i think that's true that's toronto okay sorry and gerard departures from france okay yeah i think i think i think that was understood um among us but maybe not our listeners no no that's okay i was about to get a lot of emails anyway from from from canadians as angry as they can get uh but uh okay so you

guys are it sounds like the two worlds are are like um it's like a science fiction concept it's two different populations two dimensions inhabiting the same space that have no contact with each other except when occasionally someone wants to buy sound effects or a piece of clothing. It's well said. Yeah. It's kind of like a Venn diagram with like, you know, there's a little bit of crossover, but for the most part, we live in our own circles. And the French Canadians, Anthony, have a resentment towards the Anglos, would you say?

Obviously, it's important for me to, you's not all, or even, I wouldn't even say most, but even a minority are going to be encountered almost every day. And yeah, I think there is a... What would you say is the perception of the Anglophonic community? What's the cliche of the Anglophonic community? That there are people who, you know, spent years of their lives learning proper French and yet refused to speak it because they're monsters and they're terrible at speaking French, even though they learned it and they don't even know who our TV stars are. What a bunch of snobs or what? I think, I think that's it.

Also, it should be mentioned that I think Jonathan and us, we went to immersion, but there's a lot of Anglophones in Montreal that didn't even do that. So as bad as our French is, theirs is going to be much worse. So it's not compulsory. Immersion schooling is not compulsory. You have to learn some French, but not to the degree that immersion is. Okay. So, Alison, given that you were schooled exclusively in French, Parisian or Quebecois or no, for a number of years and you're growing up and you are surrounded by French speakers, 59% of your city are French speakers. And obviously throughout Canada, there is French and English signage. How come you're so terrible at talking French? and English signage. How come you're so terrible at talking French? I'm actually not that terrible.

I should sort of qualify. I can speak very decent French, but I would actually say that my French is more functional than it is sort of expressive. If I want to just go to the store and order something, then I can certainly do that in French and do it very fluently. But if I'm going to have a conversation with somebody, I struggle with word retrieval sometimes on the spot when you're trying to think, what's the word that I'm trying to come up with in order to express myself

in the way that I want to express myself? And I guess my vocabulary is just so much more limited in French. It's all up there in my brain. It's filed away. It's just sort of filed away in the back files. So it's harder for me to do so in my second language than it is in my first language. And I do often speak in French. I just would like to preserve the right to be able to speak in English in certain situations.

Which situations specifically? situations. Which situation specifically? Well, I guess, and also Anthony wants me to, when we're together, to always order or to always speak to people in French when we're in sort of a customer service sort of situation. And I do do that sometimes. I think it's more a matter of the attitude that I feel from the person that I'm encountering and I'm dealing with, if I feel like they're giving me some attitude based intuitively solely on the fact that I'm an anglophone, I'm less inclined to make the effort. But if it's a positive interaction, I think the person is lovely, then I will struggle my way through the entire interaction in French. Anthony, what's a situation that Allison has put you in where you have felt so embarrassed or disgusted that you felt the need to discuss this on the podcast?

What's a specific soul of narrative type tale where you went in and you were like, oh my God, mon Dieu, why can't she just speak French? I'm sorry,'s actually that's exactly how it feels sometimes and and that then that's it shouldn't be but nevertheless i'd say the grocery store would be one we're going in line they'll say you mean this do you mean the store do grocery yeah yeah exactly the supermarket um and the woman will, you know, she'll do her bonjour. And then Alison will be like, hi. Kind of basically there's an implication that, no, we're doing this in English.

Or I'm ignoring the fact that you started it in French. And I already feel like there's this fight happening. And I'm now a party of this. And that would be a simple but specific example. He's an innocent bystander, actually. But how does the fight manifest itself? Does the service person yell at her in French? Or he refused to sell the items to her?

What is the end result? It'll be like... It is so mortifying. The cashier will immediately cast their eyes down to avoid eye contact. There'll be a sigh. There'll be no words spoken, really. Maybe the grocery bags, rather than handed, will be kind of tossed onto the conveyor belt. Kind of a passive-aggressive thing.

Wait a minute. Canadians being passive-aggressive? This doesn't ring true to me. Quebecois, not Canadians. Do you hear my silence? Do you hear my silence right now? That's what that is. Do you have some active aggression that you would like to add

to this conversation, Jonathan? No, I'm doing great. Okay, good. Jonathan Goldstein, you're the best. So what would you like me to order Alison to do if I were to rule in your favor? Alison to do if I were to rule in your favor? Also, I just, one little kind of point is that we're actually moving to a very rural area outside of Montreal. So this problem is going to be 10 times worse once that happens.

You know, the English, there's almost no English over there. And the nationalist sentiment is more, you know... Where are you moving to exactly? It's called Rodden, Quebec. No one's going to hunt you down, don't worry. I just think you'd know it. Don't give our address.

Where... Why are you moving? We're basically going to try to go closer to nature. We've got a kind of a country place. We're going to try to make that our main residence. Retourner à la terre. Exactly.

Oh, terre. La terre or la terre? La terre. La terre. Retourner à la terre. Yeah. Back to the land.

Yeah. So you're, so you're survivalists. I'm definitely a survivalist. Oh, man. Don't get him going. It's a whole separate issue. No, I'm definitely going to get him going. Oh, boy.

Here we go. Here we go. What? Are you okay? Are you being kidnapped by your husband so that he can take you up to a bunker and become one of his many sir wives? Oh, man. Actually, the purchase of the country house was my initiative. So I'm as excited about it as he is.

Well, of course, you had to buy the country house because he doesn't have any credit cards or bank accounts in his name. Because he's completely off the grid. He lives off the land. Exactly. He's been packing these survival packs since we bought the country house last year. And it seems like on a weekly basis, he's like, oh, by the way, there's another item that I have in my Amazon cart. Sorry. Well, that's marketing.

I'm sorry. I apologize. That's okay. I do apologize for that. Then you warned me again. I apologize. That's okay. I do apologize for that. Then you warned me again and I forgot. So he's constantly putting together these two different packs. I would only yell at him. Okay. Okay. Thank you.

It's kind of you. But what are the sort of things he's giving you in your survival pack? Well, I don't even have my own survival pack. He has his survival pack. I've offered. That's not from selfishness. Yeah.

Oh, okay. What's in your survival pack? What's in your survival pack? Well, you know, the five C's. Cordage. I forget what they are now. Cordage? Cordage is one of the things.

You need rope. Ropes. Combustion. That's obviously very important. Okay. Keep going. Candles. So you need cordage. That's rope. You need rope. Ropes. Combustion. That's obviously very important. Okay. Keep going. Candles. So you need cordage. That's rope. You need combustion. That's someone who's not just passive-aggressive.

Candles. Candy bars. Oh, candy bars. Cockatiels. A cutting tool. Cutting tool. Right. Knife is what we say in English. Container. To boil water. I like the judges survival pack better than your survival pack. This is more fun probably than that.

Totally better. Candy bars and cockatools. I can't come up with one. And what are you concerned, what kind of disaster are you concerned is going to hit even Montreal? The Francophonic sea? Well, that's one of them for sure. But, uh, it's, it's obviously, it's just a hobby. I'm, you know, we, we have all, we have, we have lots of wilderness there. We're on a lake, so there's fishing. And so I'd feel like it just goes with the whole going camping and being self-sufficient in the woods. That's, that's really. Oh yeah. No, I'm, I'm glad you have some meals ready to eat and so forth

but i just i are you actually concerned about uh about uh uh collapse societal economic or um environmental collapse no it's more about being able to go in the bush for a month and live okay and are you are you giving up montreal forever no uh we're gonna have to work here so it's about, um, cause our, you know, where our jobs were established there and everything.

So it'd be about, it's about an hour and 15 minute commute, which we're willing to do. Jonathan Goldstein outside of Montreal. What would be your estimate of the percentage of people who, who speak, speak English natively compared to Montreal itself? The,

in, in the rest of, in the rest of the province of quebec yes that's right i think it's like because in in montreal it's like almost it's a it's a it's what what did you say it's about 55 french the wikipedia said the wikipedia said 59%. I think the rest of Quebec, it might be something closer to like, is it possible 85% French? Like something like that? Oui, c'est possible. Oui. So what you're saying is that they're really, they're moving out of the fire and into the big campfire in the woods.

Will your attitude when you move to the big campfire, Alison, change with regard to how many interactions you have in French? I definitely make, I think, more of an effort when I'm in the country than when I am in the city. Yeah. I don't think I have a bad attitude. I'm very friendly. You know, when Anthony says that they say bonjour to me and I say hello, it's with a big smile.

And, you know, I'm very comfortable with conversations where I'm speaking in English and somebody's responding to me in French. For me, my primary issue, like I said before, is the word retrieval. Just coming up with the words in that moment in a timely fashion. But I understand 90% of what people say to me in French on any given time. You understand that when someone says bonjour to you and you put a big smile on your face and you say hello, that actually translates to the old Esperanto phrase, va fangul.

I don't know what that means. It's not nice. Oh, no. You wouldn't see that as an insult? I don't think so. I worked in the customer service industry for a little while in a very French part of the city. What did you do there? Sell survival knives?

Actually, no. I was working at a sandwich shop, actually. A shop to sandwich? Oui, c'est ça. And so the majority of my interactions were done in French there. I'm very capable of speaking French. I just feel like it's a matter of principle. Like I'm living in an area where it's not exclusively French.

It's very English. It's very French. Sort of like it's almost 50-50 really, as per Wikipedia anyway. No. No, it's not. Oh, you're right. You're right. You said it was 19% or something. It's 60-20.

Right. Right. I should have written that down. Yeah, 20%. It's 60% French, 20% English, 20% Esperanto, the international language. Right, exactly. Okay. I don't know.

I just feel like I don't like the being peer pressured or bullied into doing something just because I'm in the minority. I'm going to maintain lots of friendliness. And in some situations, I will bend. But I just feel like, you know, I've paid my dues. I've learned I'm bilingual. I have my bilingual certificate. Yes, my French has sort of dulled a little bit over the years. But if I were immersed in French again, I think I would, you know, pick it up again and be fluent again.

But this is the part where I'm confused because it seems to me that you are effectively immersed in French. I mean, it's not as though, it's not as though you have been living in Omaha for seven years and now you've come back. There's, there's, you have ample opportunity every, almost every, well, 60% of your interactions, I give you ample opportunity to stay fluent. So I guess my question is, and I think you've answered it. The answer for why you don't stay fluent is you don't feel like it and you don't feel like you should have to.

Well, I don't even think it's that. I think because of the nature of our jobs and because of the nature of, you know, our family and our friends being English or work English jobs in an English school board. And obviously, my friends and family are Anglophones also. There aren't that many opportunities to practice conversational French. Like I said, my French is very functional. I can go and I can very fluently. That's not the subject of the debate. The debate is that Anthony feels that you're causing friction and insulting people by going into non-conversational, simple commercial interactions by refusing to speak French when it would be, in his mind, more appropriate for you to speak French. Do I misspeak, Anthony? Is that more or less your case?

That's my case, but it's more than that. I think we're going to become completely isolated and alienated in the country if we go to the grocery store. And the only interactions we have with basically everyone, there's very few anglophones over there. And by the way, the francophones in Montreal, everyone speaks English. But if you go to a francophone in the country, they might speak little to none. Jonathan Goldstein, is that an assertion that you that you verify as true as Vray?

Yeah, that sounds about right. What do you, so you would like, it's not merely that you would like Alison to increase her usage of French in standard commercial transactions in Montreal. Do you want her to take a refresher course? Do you want her to promise to speak 20% more French? Tell me exactly what you want. If she took every opportunity that we get, which, you know, including from like, for example, neighbors, other than just being like, bonjour and a wave, actually trying to like, you know, like, you know, how's it going? What's new? And if we took every opportunity that we had to kind of speak French, make an overt effort,

I think our French would actually improve and we'd get somewhere where we used to be back in high school. And Allison, you would like me to, if I rule in your favor, you would like me to tell Anthony, knock it off. Stop putting pressure on me to speak more French than I feel comfortable with. I am very comfortable speaking English. And if that means in the country, I never speak to another human being and I become increasingly isolated and I only talk to my friends on the Internet. That's fine.

You got it. I guess what I want is to be able to make that choice myself rather than be ruled to do so by the two of you. Oh, personal freedom. Liberté. Exactly. Yeah. All right. Jonathan, do you have any further questions or thoughts you'd like to add before I go into Chambres and make my ruling. Right. I'm no judge or anything, but I mean I get the feeling that for – I don't get the feeling that Allison is an ideologue or anything. It sounds to me like it's not a politically charged thing as much as it is a matter of etiquette. Like, you know, like if you meet someone who's who's being nice, you're more inclined to not just speak French, but just to kind of meet them on their own terms. Like, I mean, if you look at it as an etiquette question, like if you know, if you meet the queen, you curtsy. If you meet Howie Mandel, you'll give him a fist bump.

You just you just say, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're not allowed to fist bump Howie Mandel, you'll give him a fist bump. You just say, bonjour. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're not allowed to fist bump Howie Mandel. It's true. He doesn't want to touch your hands. Yeah, because he's got that OCD thing. He's a germaphobe. Right. Does he fist bump?

But does he fist bump? I know that he doesn't shake hands, but is fist bumping? Yeah. Does the fist bump? He does a little fist bump. I ought to write a letter to Howie Mandel explaining how the fist bump is twice as unhygienic as shaking hands. Is that true? No, no, I'm just making it up. I just want to get in his head.

Right. Yeah, that'll totally isolate him. Yeah, that'll totally isolate him. You understand, Howie Mandel, that knuckle germs are twice as likely to give you typhoid fever than palm germs. Yes, exactly. It wasn't for the damage that the fist caused. It was all through germs. Yeah, exactly. People fought with poisoned knuckles well into the 1950s, poisoned knuckles well into the 1950s because they knew that the germs that you would pick up between your knuckles were more likely to kill you than any other germ. Signed, a friend. The knuckle sandwich contained botulism.

Precisely. But I derailed you there. I apologize. No, no, there was nothing more really. I was just going to say that like, you know, like when you're like the – in fact, actually, rather than even a bonjour, I find myself using allo, which is kind of like it feels almost like it's unisex somehow. You know, it's like it's allo is like – is a French greeting. It's hello is like is is a French greeting. But at the same time, if you're greeting someone who's English, it sounds kind of close enough to hello to come off as being playful. Like, hello. Hello.

Yeah. Like with a little to your voice like that. Hello. Yeah. Je m'appelle John Hodgman. And now I am going to go into my chambre to faire du judging. Goodbye. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Anthony, how are you feeling about your chances in the case? I think I feel pretty good. I don't know if anyone appreciates the irony of the survivalist hoping that we can integrate ourselves into society, but I feel pretty good. What's the most expensive thing you've bought so far in this weird Amazon.ca obsession of yours? Yeah, I have a YouTube obsession. dot ca obsession of yours yeah and youtube obsession um actually the whole point is i'm trying to do it on the cheap but uh i guess the most expensive thing is probably uh i'm not even sure maybe uh maybe a tarp oh yeah my hammock that's for sure yeah that. Wait, is that in case the power goes out and you lose the magic fingers on your bed?

He bought this hammock that it's like a tent hammock that you string it in between two trees. And so your tent is essentially this like little cocoon that you sleep in, which doesn't sound very exciting. It sounds rather claustrophobic, but he's excited about it. So, you know, that was his birthday present to himself. Allison, how are you feeling about your chances? I felt much better going into this than I do at the moment, unfortunately. I think he's probably the judge is going to rule in Anthony's favor, sadly. Allison, if this whole case is a matter of semiotics,

favor, sadly. Allison, if this whole case is a matter of semiotics, do you think it's possible that your intent here is not the sole indicator of the meaning of the form of your interaction? Do you think that it's possible that if you're being nice

in your head, it might mean something else to the other person and you might consider that? Maybe so. Maybe so. We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say when we come back in just a minute. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org.

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Rules and restrictions apply. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom. Hello. I have returned. And Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. Hello! I have returned. First of all, I really look forward to seeing the terrifying home invasion horror movie that will be based on your life outside of Montreal. About an anglophonic survivalist couple that moved to rural Quebec and, and,

and the exacerbate cultural tensions, the exacerbated cultural tensions raised to a point where not even you can not even fight off the monstrous neighbors with your cutting tools and your cockatiels. It's going to be a lot of fun because there is, I mean, you know, here's the thing, as I mentioned before, and I kind of clued into survivalism because I realized when I was trying to remember when it was that I was in Montreal and it wasn't in 2002,

it was in fact, 2001. It was the first, the first time I flew after 9-11. So it was late 2001. I went to go do a magazine story about eating in Montreal. And I love Montreal. I haven't been back since. And I'm embarrassed and sad for myself because it was such an amazing city. because it was such an amazing city. Once I got over the terror of realizing I had made a horrible mistake by imagining that I could navigate it purely in English, and that I would have to retrieve the French that I had studied for many years in high school. I had six years of, I dare say, advanced placement French, starting in seventh grade and going on through high school. But I lost it all when I went to college because I decided I wanted to read Latin American literature in Spanish. So I learned Spanish. And then it was very easy to learn Spanish because they are effectively the same languages until my brain just combined them both. And now, je ne pense pas en français sin pensamiento en castellano también. And just, it all runs, that's my talk. That's my parlay now.

It's this weird creole of French and Spanish and not knowing how to talk right. And bizarro Superman language that is the only way I can express myself in any of the Latin languages. And I brought that with me to Montreal and I was encountered with a tremendous amount of confusion and contempt. a tremendous amount of confusion and contempt. Doubly so, because not only was I Anglophonic, but I was also clearly from the south of the border. And I realized in an immediate way that this was a French-speaking city, despite its long, long, and I think you guys spoke of 14 generations. And was it in your family, Anthony, of people speaking, of English speakers in Montreal? Is that right? On my father's side, never was there a Francophone that got married into the family.

Right. You know, it's a well-established community of Anglophonic citizens that have been there since the beginning of the city. I mean, well, you know, almost as far as the city goes back. Is that not correct? Exactly. And yet, it is culturally, as well as linguistically, very French indeed. And I realized that I was just going to have to jump in and use the worst possible French I could, because that would be more appropriate than falling back on English. To me, it seemed like I have to engage with the culture that I'm in if I have any fluency whatsoever I ought to. Now, and you know what, I did, and I can't say that it went very well,

but I felt better about myself than going in and going, yes, where is the hamburger? In English. Hamburger is, how do you say hamburger in French, Jonathan Goldstein? You would say hamburger, though. I've seen it written as Hambourgeois. Hambourgeois. Hamburger, as I remember from French,

one of the things I do retain in French is the vast number of hilarious words that are simply taken from English. My favorite being faire du camping. If you go out to go camping, you fair do camping. Apparently you also fair do jogging when you go jogging. And then I love every time I go into a hotel,

um, picking up that, that travel size bottle of shampoo they give you in hotels and seeing that it is also called shampooing. Uh, but I am, I am less in love with the bottle of, of, the bottle of body wash that they give you, which is called gel douche.

I feel like that's somehow an insult to me. I love the fact that Canada and Quebec and other parts of Canada retain a true bilingual nature. It seems archaic, weirdly archaic, in a world that is increasingly just defaulting to English as the itself disappearing language of power and commerce in the world. In particular, English, you know, is spoken by so many people around the world in order to be a part of what has been traditionally the largest economy in the world. But of course, that's transitioning. And now in the Upper. But of course, that's transitioning. And now in the Upper West Side of Manhattan, the children are learning Chinese. And the Chinese speakers who speak English, I think, speak it probably knowing that they won't have to for

much longer. And I appreciate the beauty of a culture that retains a language, even when it seems as silly as putting a bilingual menu that has hamburger and hamburger on it. You know what I mean? But then again, that's my point of view. I don't know how I feel about this concept that a husband might compel his wife to speak French more often. And I appreciate, sir, that you go into a rage when your wife embarrasses herself and you by not buying her shampooing en francais at the Marché or what have you. But it is a matter, I think, of personal choice. The issue, particularly in Montreal, where there is a longstanding community of anglophonic speakers, and people like Jonathan Goldstein can happily exist and thrive in that second dimension of anglophones that inhabit the city like weird, shimmery ghosts that inhabit the parallel city of Montreal. I first came to Montreal and realized, oh, no, they weren't joking. They really do speak French here, is going to be even more severe when you spend when you are now living in a community that is primarily and almost perhaps exclusively francophonic, Alison. I don't know how,

I don't know what your experience is going to be like up there when someone says bonjour to them, and you smile broadly and say, hello, I refuse to speak your language, but I'm friendly. You bet I'm friendly. It may be that it goes more easily because there is perhaps less day-to-day friction between the two sides of the city that are constantly banging up against each other in Montreal. It may be that people are more accepting that you just don't speak English, or it may be that they are less accepting. And I guess you won't really know until you're there. I encourage you, quite honestly, to take advantage of the city that you live in, the city that has a massive population and culture that is speaking not merely a different language, but a different way of life, and enjoy and engage with that

double life that everyone in Montreal has access to, only because I think it would make your life Everyone in Montreal has access to only because I think it would make your life more interesting. And I also think that it would become very useful to you to be a little bit more fluent in French once you're outside of the city than not. But that said, I can't compel you to do anything. The French fought for their freedom as we in the United States fought for ours. It is not compulsion. What is it? Liberté? Fraternité?

What's the last part, Jonathan Goldstein? In the French Revolution? Wessonalité? Wessonalité? I'm sorry. I'm not sure. Oh, wessonality. What is it, though? I really need to know. I feel dumb that I don't know it. I apologize.

Fraternite. The third thing to come up on Google is Liberté Fraternite Beyoncé. Egalité. Egalité. Egalité. Have you known that this entire time, Monsieur Bailiff? No, Julia just said it to me over the talkback. I was trying to think of what it was, too. I remember sans culottes. I remember that was a key thing.

The term from the French Revolution is not fraternité, egalité, compelling your wife to parley. It is liberté, fraternité égalité compelling your wife to parley. It is liberté fraternité. It is liberté fraternité égalité. And therefore, I have to find in favor of the plaintiff Allison, you can talk whatever you want, but you will suffer

the consequences. And I would say to Anthony that you should not go shopping with your wife until she does a better job so that she doesn't embarrass you. And particularly when you're out in the country and you're going to country stores or you're buying furniture and your wife refuses to speak English. So that the Francophones out in rural Quebec don't connect you with her and therefore are less likely to follow you home and murder you both. This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Allison, you've won your freedom, but with some caveats. How are you feeling? Feeling pretty good about it. I wasn't certain that it was going to go this way. So I'm glad that the judge was able to see that, you know, freedom of choice is an important thing in life. you know, freedom of choice is an important thing in life.

Are you looking forward to your active integration into the Francophonic community of the woods outside Montreal? I actually am. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. What's going to be the first thing you do? Like, read that book about how Celine Dion and taste are much more complicated than you had thought they were. It might just be, it's a good suggestion. Thank you. I've been reading it. It's called let's talk about love. It's by Carl Wilson. It's exceptionally good. Um, Anthony, you've been rebuked for trying to, uh, for trying to, uh, build walls around your wife's language use. How are you feeling?

I guess I'm looking forward to a lifetime of passive-aggressive service. To be honest, that's probably what you were going to get anyway. What's a francophonic activity that you're looking forward to? Other francophonic activities? Other than playing hockey? I'm not sure. There are. There are things that French-speaking people do.

There have to be. It's an entire enormous province of a significant country. They drink a lot of wine. I look forward to that. That's true. That's true. You have a bad attitude, Anthony. I'm not sure I like you.

Yeah, it sounds like Anthony could probably use some re-immersion himself. Maybe you guys both ought to have one night a week where you go out and just French only. And you converse with each other in French in a French part of town in a French restaurant. And you figure out that you live in a French speaking city. You dummies. Come on. I come on worse. How about this?

Worst case scenario, you stay home. You have to watch either French television or a French movie. The good news is it's not like there's, there's only terrible French movies. There's Gerard Depardieu, for example. That's actually a really good idea.

I think I'd actually enjoy that. That was two ideas. Which is the better idea? The movie. No, you're wrong. I was going to say the movie. Well, now you have to do both. I've rearranged my order.

You have to watch a French movie every week, one day a week, and then you have to have a French dinner every night until you move. When do you move? Well, it's up in the air. I'm pregnant now, so we're waiting to see how things go with the newborn. Congratulations.

Thank you. I would definitely have your baby in a major city, in a major hospital. I think so. So now is the time for you to be eating as much French food as possible. Go out once a week and speak only in French and order only in French. And then you can do whatever you want. I also order you to listen to je vois la vie en rose. Elle me dit des mots d'amour, des mots de tous les jours, et ça me fait quelque chose.

Elle est entrée dans mon cœur, une part de bonheur, dont je connais la cause. Jury means oath. That's where we get the word jury, you guys. Et dès que je la perçois, alors je sens en moi mon cœur qui bat. I don't know what any of those words mean. Now get out of here. Our thanks to Jonathan Goldstein, the host of the CBC's Wiretap, which you can get on podcast across this great nation. And you should get on podcast across this great nation. And you should get on podcast across this great nation because it's such a great show. It's fantastic. Fantastique,

Jonathan. Merci beaucoup. We'll return in just a moment with the docket. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try.

Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah! We are so close.

Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Oh, oui, oui, oui, Judge Horsman. Quand je fais du shampooing, je use le gel douche. I don't remember how my shower song goes.

Something, something, j'en couste. I took no years of AP French. That's my experience with French. Son Coulat, though, I like that very much. I did remember Son Coulat from, I had this great professor in college who taught European history. I can't think of what his name was, but the best part about him was he would tell funny stories about his cat in class I think what I was trying to Can you tell that I didn't like

school very much? I think what I was trying to express in my verdict and maybe didn't come off as clear is that they should enjoy speaking French because it's a vanishing novelty language just like English I think, look they're going to be fine because it's a vanishing novelty language just like English.

I think, look, I... They're going to be fine. Just get out there. I don't think they're going to be murdered by rural Quebecois. I don't think some Quebecois looking at them askance should ruin their fun. I don't think they should let that

cramp their lifestyle. I think they should get out there and talk some French. That's what I think.ley you guys, come on Have a nice soft cheese, let's do this Oh man, I want to go to Montreal I can't believe it's been 13 years

Since I was there Has it changed much? Who knows, are the bagels still slightly sweeter Than American bagels? I know, I have a lot of nerve talking smack about the Montreal bagel when I haven't even eaten one in a dozen years. In a baker's dozen. All right, let's clear the docket. Okay, we got a lot of stuff on the docket this week.

First of all... First of all, we all have to read Rolling Stone's list of top 20 best comedy podcasts right now, which include Judge John Hodgman and other Maximum Fun podcasts like Throwing Shade. And Risk. Yeah, it was a really great triumph for Maximum Fun to have three shows in Rolling Stone's list of the top 20 comedy podcasts. And, you know, if you take out the few slots that they gave out to podcasts that are not comedy podcasts, it might have been even more. StarTalk. Yeah.

We have no problem with StarTalk, which, you know, often is co-hosted by our friend Eugene Merman. Sure. Very funny man. Neil deGrasse Tyson is the host of that show. Right. It's a fascinating discussion of science and the universe. Let's just take out StarTalk and put in Jordan, Jesse, go. Sounds good. Sounds like a deal, Judge Hodgman.

Okay, so that's order of business number one. Order of business number two is this letter from Jennifer. I have a dispute with my boyfriend, Alex. When traveling by car, should a map application on a smartphone be used as a map or as an app? We use my smartphone as a tool to help us on car trips. I think we should follow the routes given to us by the application. I believe the app knows way more about past routes, one-way streets, and traffic patterns than Alex or I do. Relying on the route given to us by the app is the most reliable and efficient choice.

Alex thinks we should use the GPS function to view our location and make decisions based on the map. He believes he can and does create superior routes with his own mind. That is an interesting sentence. I really like that sentence because it suggests to me a scene from an X-Men movie. Yeah, he's a mutant. a scene from an X-Men movie. Yeah, he's a mutant. I just picture them in like

the heart of Manhattan and just a route like buildings are collapsing before them. You guys know the risk of buzz marketing. You guys know that's how Waze works, right? They're not using reported traffic

jams to map alternate routes for people as they use it. They've actually kidnapped a mutant. Yeah, it's Israeli defense technology in action. They've kidnapped a mutant who is able to plan routes with his mind, and they have him in the bottom of a bunker somewhere in Nebraska, and they have him hooked up to a machine. So every time you use Waze, you're slowly killing a mutant. I guess we have ruled them out as a sponsor.

She says that he also distrusts the application's ability to create superior routes, since it will sometimes change routes midway, when as far as he can tell, nothing has changed. Yeah, that's because it's a computer. Go on. It knows about things that you can't see. Yeah, that's because it's a computer. Go on. Yeah. It knows about things that you can't see. Yeah. I'm requesting it. I'm requesting an injunction from Judge Hodgman that we do not try to outsmart

the smartphone, but instead default to following the GPS's suggested directions. I would say that what's happening here is completely understandable in that Alex, the boyfriend who believes he can plot courses with his brain, simply needs a wetware upgrade. His brain is operating as though it were as little as,

I would say, four years ago when GPS was truly not reliable in terms of choosing a way to go. in terms of choosing a way to go. It was not trustworthy and openly deserving of suspicion and contempt. And obviously, I am not suggesting that we give all of our lives over to computers. I don't want a crazy dystopia. But I will say that as someone who has been traveling quite a bit over the past six months in many different cities and using not merely computer maps, but also guided direction applications on board a commercially available smartphone, I've been astonished by the quantum leap in quality of directions that I've been receiving, including the very thing that Alex is complaining about with regard to the computers making decisions for things I can't see, because it's getting data from many, many, many more sources with regard to traffic patterns and

traffic jams that are allowing you to bypass things. And there was not one time when I was using a GPS turn-by-turn navigation application that I shall not name because I honestly think that they're doing pretty well. Let me just put it this way. I'm using the one that it is common wisdom that everyone says is garbage. And in fact, it was incredibly reliable for me and got me to my destination within 30 seconds of its projected time every time, no matter what time of day it was. I thought it was amazing. So Alex, I appreciate your suspicion of GPSs and turn-by-turn directions on board smartphones, but I think that you are behind the times when it comes to using them.

Obviously, one never wants to give up your human faculties. And at the end of the day, until Google makes us all sit in the backseat of cars that are driven by robots, you are in control of the driving. And so you can make course corrections based on your mental powers. But I would say you should go ahead and use the directions on the GPS, particularly in cities where you have zero familiarity, because you're not actually psychic. You're just a dude. What's amazing to me is that it sounds like Alex is holding on to, just clinging to for dear life, this husband wife conflict that sounds like it could be in a Lockhorns. I was just going to say, I know that like in my in my own personal case, I've I've been married for a number of years and with my wife for a number of years before that. And the two of us almost never fight.

with my wife for a number of years before that. And the two of us almost never fight. And she is a very, she has an excellent sense of direction. I don't. I'm very forgetful, so I tend to lose track of where I'm going. And I am very good at reading maps, and she couldn't read a map if she had, you know, if she had gone to— A master's degree in map reading. Yeah, exactly. She'd gone to navigation school is what I was going to say. I have a doctorate in cartography. The first like seven years of our relationship were me in the driver's seat and her in the

passenger seat. And if she didn't intuitively know where we were going, her looking at a map, being perplexed by it, and me getting really freaked out and yelling at her in a really inappropriate way. It was like a huge source of friction in our relationship for no reason. Although it was hard to fix. And then I got a GPS for our car, which at the time was a significant investment for us, cost a few hundred dollars.

But it was literally the best thing I've ever done for my relationship because my anxiety was completely salved. I knew that this robot knew where we were going. And so I didn't have to worry. And my wife didn't have to worry about me yelling at her in an inappropriate way or freaking out for a stupid reason like that she was taking an extra second to tell us whether to turn right or left. It was like the greatest thing that ever happened to us. It was so wonderful. And I still, every time I get in my car, I look at that navigation unit that's on my

dashboard and I just think about what a wonderful thing that is for just completely taking this huge source of anxiety and conflict out of my life inside myself and with my wife. And that he, that his machismo over wanting to read maps, this classic male skill, trumps this constant conflict that it's causing with his wife. Come on, guy, let it go. Just, you can read maps at home for fun. I feel very strongly that the gentleman should enjoy knowing better than the GPS in the city either in which he lives or cities or places where he has intimate familiarity that he is that he has driven the roads and gained experience of and knows better

than any computer I absolutely have no question but if you're in a if you're in a place where you don't know the place you gotta sometimes acknowledge that uh that uh data knows more than you do Judge Hodgman I want to get your opinion about something before we go. I will give it to you. It's a little something called the Atlantic Ocean Comedy and Music Festival. Opinion equals yes. You traveled on this boat last year, right? I really did.

What was it like? For people out there, you have no interest in this endeavor. Let's make this clear. I gain no compensation one way or the other. But what was your experience at BoatParty.biz as it is commonly known? There are two things that I'd like to speak of in terms of the incredible positivity of the experience that was BoatParty.biz. One, I will speak of, well, three things. One, I will speak of the entertainment. Simply some of the most interesting, fun, and exciting comedians and musical performers

I'd ever encountered. Some of whom I knew about, most of whom I didn't. And thanks to an incredibly great curative, not curative as in to cure, but to curate. Curatorative? Thanks to the amazing curator, who is Jesse Thorne and his colleagues at Maximum Fun, I was introduced to music and comedy that remain my favorites today. Second, the people who attended the cruise were often as interesting and entertaining to me as the people who were nominally on stage. And I made great friends

that I stay in touch with all year round. And my understanding is, from the people who went on the last cruise, that the feeling is the same. And third, cruising is actually fun. A lot of people, I think, turn their nose up at cruises, because David Foster Wallace wrote an amazing essay saying that it was a miserable experience. And David Foster Wallace is a wonderful writer, one of the greatest, and it's a great loss that he is no longer with us today writing more. But it doesn't mean that you can't go on a cruise and have fun just because you subscribe to Harper's.

You know what I'm saying? Get over yourselves, guys. They got salad bars for days. And it's truly, being on a cruise, being on a giant floating hotel that should be impossible, is one of the weirdest and most exciting and overstimulative and enjoyably absurd

things that I've ever done and it heightens the experience of you know you and your favorite artists and the new favorite artists you haven't met yet and the people that you're going to be hanging around with and enjoying are literally all in the same boat you become the reason that there is that saying you all enjoy a hyper, an exceedingly weird and fun and unique experience together. And Jesse, it pains me that I can't join you this year due to another commitment. Yeah, well, it will be tons of fun. We have lots of amazing people there. I mean, John Roderick, regular guest bailiff John Roderick is going to be there.

We just announced the music lineup. Antibalas, formerly the Antibalas Af Roderick, is going to be there. We just announced the music lineup. Antibalas, formerly the Antibalas Afrobeat Orchestra, are going to be there. All 14 members of the band. It's going to be a totally bonkers party. The band Lake from Olympia, Washington, who a lot of folks might know because they do some of the music on Adventure Time. Oh, wow. And lots of amazing comedians as well. I mean, W. Kamau Bell from Totally Biased, the great Greg Barrett, one of my favorite

comedians ever of all time, absolutely. Moshe Kasher, Karen Kulgarov, Kyle Kinane. Come on, Kyle Kinane. That guy's the voice of Comedy Central. Did you know Kyle was the voice of Comedy Central? I did not know that. How long has that been going on? That's been going on for like a couple of years.

I just never noticed. And then I was like, oh, wait a minute. I know whose voice that is. Kyle Kinane, I met at another event that you're curated and I've seen him perform comedy since. And you've seen him on Conan. You've seen him on all the late night talk shows. Truly one of the most wonderful, intensely talented comedians that

I've been around. I just love him. And I never would have known of him if I had not been on the boat or been in an event such as this, but you had curated. I'll give you an example. One person who's on the cruise that whose name might not be familiar to you is Carol Kolb. She's going to be teaching a class. But this is Carol's qualifications. And I think they speak to the quality of her abilities. A, she's a writer on Community. B, she was a writer on Review, Andy Daly's brilliant and amazing television program that just concluded its first season on Comedy Central. C, she was the head writer and showrunner of the Onion News Network, the brilliant Onion television program. D, she was the editor-in-chief of The Onion for quite a number of years.

She is as good as it gets, and she could literally teach you how to write comedy on this cruise. Anyway, all of this information is online at boatparty.biz. And if that weren't enough, you get 50 bucks off if you type in the promo code JUDGE. Type in the promo code JUDGE, you get 50 bucks off. That's courtesy of me and Judge John Hodgman. And, you know, if there's anything else we can do to make it happen for you, you know, just drop us a line. Look, my email address is jesseatmaximumfund.org. I want to make this, I want to make this a go for you. Mine is hodgman at maximumfund.org if you have questions about seasickness, what the best things to get at the salad bar are, which is the best. Ice cream is the answer, by the way.

Yeah, it's true. What kinds of sunscreen to wear, I would also be happy to advise you. And if you have disputes for Judge John Hodgman, that's a place to let me know whom you're fighting with. And I'll review every one of your emails. Or you can go to MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho and fill out a simple form. And that's how we keep this show going. Yeah. So MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho. Our thanks to our producer, Julia Smith. Our editor is Mark McConville.

You can find out more information about the cruise at BoatParty.biz. P.S., family's welcome. We have some really cool family stuff for you. It is a really—having gone with children on cruises, it's actually a lot of fun. It's perfect in many ways. Yeah, it's actually a lot of fun. It's perfect in many ways. Yeah, it's a blast. And please submit your cases, no matter how big or small, we at least peruse them all. Maximumfun.org slash JJ Ho. Our thanks to Thomas McCambly for naming this week's program. If you want to get in on that

action, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, or follow me and Judge Hodgman on Twitter. I'm at Jesse Thorne. Hodgman is at Hodgman. That's all our time for this week's show. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Au revoir.