Judge John Hodgman - The Grandfather Claws

Episode Date: January 28, 2015

Should an elderly cat be treated as a family member?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the grandfather clause. Josh brings the case against his partner Melanie. They recently moved in together. They share their apartment with Josh's aging cat. Josh says the cat's like family to him. It should be afforded certain privileges and comforts. Melanie insists the cat's not a family member. privileges, and comforts. Melanie insists the cat's not a family member. Josh's coddling has to stop. Who's right? Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Judge John Hodgman, Judge John Hodgman, Judge John Hodgman, Judge John Hodgman, Judge John Hodgman, Judge John Hodgman, Judge John Hodgman, Judge John Hodgman. Shut your pie hole, shut your pie hole, shut your pie hole. Judge John Hodgman, the Internet podcast judge show that's so good I asked for it by name. Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Please rise. Raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. We do. I do. Very well. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he himself is half-cat? Yes. Yes, we do. Judge Hodgman? Josh and Melanie, please be seated. For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors i am praying that your foreignness prevented you from recognizing the piece of culture that i paraphrased as i entered the courtroom do you recognize it melanie i don't understand what you're talking about very good fine josh can you name the piece of culture that i referenced as i entered the courtroom? With the lyrics of being something to do with meow.

Yes, you are on the right track. Are you being coy or do you know the answer? Is it the Meow Mix song? I don't know the song, but I've kind of interneted it. Ah, Snowpiercer'd again. Took a gamble. You don't know what I'm... Do you know what I'm referring to when I say I was Snowpiercer'd again?

No, I'm terribly uncultured at the moment. All right, good. So I assume it's a film reference. Then you both lose. Yes. Then we must hear the case. I did a quick pivot on the cultural reference. Because last week I made a reference to the movie Snowpiercer and someone recognized it.

and someone recognized it. And it's the first time, I think that that was the first time, Jesse, that someone got the cultural reference and I couldn't back out of it plausibly. Like they legitimately got it. I got your cultural reference, but I didn't get your reference to the fact that I got your cultural reference.

Yes, so I had to go meta. Oh my God, that's Hodgemanception. Do you not know the Meow Mix theme song, Melanie? I don't know, man. Be quiet, Josh. Stuff gets in here. Oh, excuse me, sir. Melanie.

Yes. Are you not familiar with the Meow Mix theme song? No, I don't know what you're talking about. Right. That is because it's a jingle, an advertising song for a cat food in America called Meow Mix. You didn't recognize it. No, I didn recognize it because, one, you are not American. Are you English? Do I guess correctly?

Yes. Right? And you're not a crazy cat person like Josh, correct? Correct. Absolutely. All right. You bring this case and seek justice from this court, Melanie. Yes.

And Josh has a cat. You have decided to cohabitate. The cat is in your house and you want to kill it. Correct? Yes. Yes. Oh. You want to have the cat murdered? Not by myself. Maybe by third party.

What is the problem with this cat? First of all, what is the cat's name? It. Is that true, Josh? No. The cat's name is The Cheat cheat oh this is it must be a must be a reference to uh to uh homestar runner the famous web series by the by the brothers chaps yeah well that i didn't like that what are you doing is that your imitation of The Cheat? Yes.

The Cheat is a character in the great and now is it retired web series? I believe it's returned, hasn't it? It's retire-turned. It went away for a while and it's back now. It's very, very funny. Particularly the strong bad emails was always one of my favorite things very funny uh 10 years ago i would listen to a strong bad email or watch one of those things and then i would i would i would listen to a to a sound of young america and that was well not 10

years ago i guess this had to have been in 2005 or so. Well, there we go. Here we go. 2006 or so. In any case, you guys, it's a funny name for a cat. Esoteric. Is it a boy cat or a girl cat, Josh? It's a boy cat. He also has a middle name.

Brother. I told you he was crazy. What is the middle name of the cat? Reznor. After the Nine Inch Nails frontman, Trent Reznor. This is not going to go well for you, Josh. Sorry about that. I told you.

Reznor, after former American president William Howard Taft. The cheat, Reznor, and then presumably his last name is your last name, Josh? That's right. Yes, her family name. Yeah, right, right. And how long have you had this cat, Josh? For 12 years. Well, no, that's not true.

Maybe 11 years, six months. We adopted him from his crazy mother, who was owned by a crazy friend of ours. So a long time, 12 years. So the cat is about 12 years old. You've had him since he was a kitten? Yes, his birthday is St. Patrick's Day. What kind of cat is he? A British Shorthair? Yes, a ginger and white.

A ginger and white. The British Shorthair cats are the most adorable cats of all time. Basically. American Shorthair cats look like jerks. Next to British Shorthair cats. I just pulled most adorable cats of all time. Basically. American short-haired cats look like jerks. Next to British short-haired cats. I just pulled the microphone out of my ear. Oh, is the cat? Hi.

Wait a minute. Yeah, he's joined us now. But no. No, thank you. No, thank you. I don't want the cat to be part of a podcast. We're adult humans now. Do you understand?

Yes. Okay. This, I think, is the crux of the issue. Melanie, I appreciate that you're being facetious when you suggest that I order a third party to murder the cat. I'm serious. Would you seriously like the cat to be put down? No. You've put me on a spot.

You've put me on a spot. What is the problem with the cat in specific detail? Not just it exists or it's a cat or I hate it. It's smelly. It's old. It's attention seeking. It leaves hair all over the house. Yes.

It uses a litter tray that is not frequently emptied. Yes. It meows loudly. It's manipulative. It pees everywhere. It drives me crazy. So you're saying – George Hodgman does not meow loudly. She's talking about –

I'm sorry. I was sort of spaced out there. She was talking about Trent Reznor, the cheat. Oh, gotcha. He's utterly revolting. What you're saying is he's a cat. Yes. You and Josh are a romantically paired couple.

Is that correct? At the moment, yes. And how long have you been in a romantic pairing? Two years. And have you begun to cohabitate? Recently, in the last nine months, yes. With the cat. And did you move into his, look,

I'm going to show you guys how up I am on, on foreign terminology. Did you move into his flat or did he move into your flat? He bought a house and said I could move in with him. Oh, okay. So you, you have moved into a, well, it's a house that he bought with his money though, right? And you're not married? Correct. All right. And did you know that he had this cat before you moved in or did he surprise you?

Yes, I did. Were you surprised with it? I knew about the cat. And you never liked the cat? Not really, no. I pretended in the beginning, obviously, when you're courting. Sure. I pretend to like the other partner's hobbies.

When you're getting to know someone that you might spend your life with, you start with deception. I agree totally. You pretended to like the cat. How would you pretend to like the cat? Would you pet it and then quietly vomit? No, I've never really touched it. I would just be like, oh, he's so cute. Oh, God.

And I just, you know how women are like we just lie i pretended to like this animal and now and now the time for lying is is over because you've got you figure you've got josh hooked and it doesn't matter anymore and you can finally reveal your true monstrous self or the time for lying is over because you're moved in together and there are certain things that the cat is doing that drive you crazy that can be fixed in some way both what specific things would you have me order the cat be prohibited from doing as best you can prohibit entering the bedroom in the morning yes going to do and then jump into our bed. Right. Meowing very loudly.

Peeing everywhere. Leaving hair everywhere. Just existing, really. Right. So those aren't very manageable things. Some of those maybe could be altered. Right. I know, but it's not my cat.

It's not my job. Like, are you suggesting that the cat should be shaved down so it doesn't leave hair everywhere? I think it should maybe carry a portable. Hoover, how do you call it? Vacuum. Vacuum. Yeah. Hoover is a is a brand name that has become part of me that has become that has become a a generic name in the United Kingdom. But over here, it is still a brand name. And we do not buzz market specific brand names unless they're Utz brand potato chips and other snacks. Utz, the non-sponsor of this show that I love so much that I will keep talking about them until I guilt them into sponsoring them. Utz, I love you.

And you're dead to me, Moxie. Sorry, that was just a little station break that we had to do. Some brands you've never heard of. Never heard of. So your complaint, it sounds to me, Melanie, is as much with the cat's owner as with the cat itself. Is that correct? True. And also, I know that all of Josh's ex-girlfriends liked cats.

And I'm the first woman he's met that doesn't like cats. Josh, how many girlfriends have you had that love your cat? All of them. I've only had my cat whilst in the company of under three ladies. Josh, you've decided to make a change in your life by dating an extremely mean woman. Yeah, I thought I was

getting it way too easy. And I can, and it must be exhilarating. An exhilarating challenge to live. It ain't boring. With a woman who speaks her mind so bluntly. I don't want to share my bed with a cat.

I'm about to cry. I'm feeling like I'm about to cry. But I understand, Melanie. Melanie, I'm a little afraid of saying this, but could you shut your pie hole for a minute while the judge talks? Sorry. Josh, I had a cat.

My cat, Petey, died recently. Oh, I'm sorry. Well, by dying, I mean I took him to an office to have him professionally poisoned because he was 18 years old and couldn't stand up anymore. These things happen. But I also had a cat that had difficulty being nice or cute, who was very loud, depending on his diet, could smell very badly and could be very – and was frustratingly needy for a cat. Because when you get a cat, you don't expect it to be needy. You expect it to hate you.

And yet it sounds as though the cheat Reznor, your last name, is somewhat more dogish than cat-ish. Is that true? Is Melanie's depiction of your cat true? This is the thing. I ceased a long time ago to see him as a cat, and he's just this little presence now. And we do some doggy things together, like playing, and we do some cat things. Like he takes a poop somewhere, and I have to clean clean it up and then he hates me and goes away. I would say that that's a doggy thing.

You understand? Because cats – But they still love you and he just – No, no, no. Yeah, he's got malice. But cats typically defecate – urinate and defecate in a box called a – what we call a litter box, but what you call a lorry tram or something, I'm sure. And they don't typically defecate or urinate outside of that box unless there is a problem, either physical or psychological with the cat. How often does your cat urinate or defecate outside of its litter box?

Um, yeah, he's been peeing. May I relate a little of the saga of the cheat to explain? You may. I'll allow the saga of the cheat. Cue the saga of the cheat music, please. Cue the saga of the cheat music, please. The Cheetus Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the Gardens of the North, lived in Streatham with a vast area to maintain.

He had territories extending five, six, seven gardens away. He competed with many fine animals of these territories and he became cock of the block. He became the ultimate military commander in the area area he enjoyed total freedom to roam as he may and he uh went where he would as it were and we didn't need to keep a litter tray long story short he used to be a wonderful mouser he used to have a lot of free reign since then we've moved to a much smaller place we don't have a garden as such although he can can go out. I had been originally trying to get him to go outside by

not cleaning the litter tray quite as much so he would prefer to go outside. That is a bit of a shoddy excuse, and I he's now got into the routine of using the litter tray, so I guess that's fine. But the peeing is other cats. We seem to have moved from an area where he was the king to the area where he is a wanted criminal on the run from many people.

And there is a huge population of cats in the new neighborhood. And he is the old guy trying to cut it with the new cats. And he's been very territorial. And we found other cats coming in also to pee. He has been peeing too. Other cats coming into your home? Yeah, which scares the hell out of him. It scares the hell out of me.

I know. We would endure this. No, I guess we wouldn't. We'd enjoy this if we didn't have a cat because I wouldn't have put a cat flap in. Yeah, the cat flap. You're all being bullied and gaslit by a cat gang. Yeah, the cat flap. You're all being bullied and gaslit by a cat gang. Yeah, man. This is like a home invasion

horror movie. It's like The Strangers with Cats. Why do you have a door to close or a window? I put the cat flap in before I realized the extent of the situation. I might reconsider it. Although we can lock it and we do lock it. The cats are coming in through the, through the cat flap.

Is that correct? Not anymore. We lock it at nights now. There's less of a problem and he's got a little better about it, but when they do get in, yeah, you find him peeing. They're coming.

They're coming in to taunt your elderly cat. I know. Get out of here, old man. This is our place. It's our time now. Yeah, man. All right.

Well, I loved your prepared statement, honestly. I normally don't go for the prepared statements. But that was beautiful. I think you should write that. You know, I feel like that's pretty good. You'd pitch that as an HBO show. Well, I could talk about the cheat all day. So could I.

You had to have understood, given the performance that we both just endured, Melanie, that this cat was a huge part of this man that you feel your version of love for. True, but I don't want that cat in my bed when I wake up in the morning. He wants to share the bed with the cat and I am not into threesomes. I want just my boyfriend and I don't want any other except mine. I just don't want to share a bed with an animal. It's gross. It's disgusting. I want to wake up in the morning and kiss my boyfriend and not have some slobbering, smelly animal between. Did you ever have a pet growing up? Never.

Of course not. I don't like animals. I like animals on my plate or in a nice fur coat. I don't want to live with one. You make a very strong case. But, you know, my concern is – and everyone deserves to have their strong opinions and everyone deserves to not have a – you know, since my cat Petey was professionally poisoned by a doctor. And then we offshored Sugar, our last remaining hamster, to the neighbor girl. And then Sugar finally died of old age.

And now I am pet-free for the first time in, you know, 20 years. Well, 17 with Petey, right? And then, yeah, so 17 years, right? And it's a remarkable feeling. Josh, I have to tell you that when you cohabitate with a cat, nature's perfect parasite, and it's got its toxoplasmotic pause on your psyche and you think – like you forget what it's like to have the free agency of an adult human to be able to leave whenever you want and to not have to touch another creature's feces. creatures, feces to – you can go away for a month or whatever and not have to worry about whether the cat – find someone to take care of the cat and then worry about how much that cat is going to hate and judge you once you come back for leaving it. You are not going to be constantly silently judged all the time and found wanting by that cat. And so, you know, there is a real pleasure that comes in not having a pet. And so I understand your point of view,

Melanie, but you have to acknowledge that you went into this relationship eyes open, right? Yes, but I went into a relationship with a human, with a man. I didn't go into a relationship with an animal as well. This isn't a three-way relationship. It's between me and my boyfriend. I understand. But when he, but you know,

this is a man who has a, you marry the man, you marry his passions. When he reads a long prepared statement, the saga of the cheat and all those names, did you not know that that was the man that you were following and in love with? Or has this been a terrible reveal to you? I don't know. I'm just shocked by it.

Here's the question that I have, Melanie. Is there any way? I mean, you obviously would like to bar the cat from the bedroom. Yes. All right. Let's start there. Josh, is that acceptable to you? This is the crux of the issue. Yes. I love getting to the crux. They call me the crux finder. I listen. I'm listening. I'm always like, where's the crux? Where's the crux? Where's the crux? Then I get my crux clacks on going.

Oh, God. Oh, God. There it is. The crux of the issue. Why don't you borrow? Why don't you borrow the cheat from the bedroom, Josh? This is the thing I already do. I'm just railing against it.

I wish for territorial gains for the cheat because he makes an awful racket trying to get in, going to my ears, I love you, father. Father, why have you forsaken me? Let me in. No, that's not what happens because cats can't speak English. Yeah, it sounds like meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, but that is what it means.

I know it in the depths of my soul. And the scratching and then he'll jump on the bed and then he'll leave dirt everywhere. And he'll dribble in my face and all these things. And I must've been, I just like these things. But he's used to it.

These are the restrictions of his love for me. You like, yeah, you're very, the two of you are very bonded, obviously. Yeah. And he will, and so when you finally open the door, then he will jump on you. Well, not on me.

Oh, you're like Josh and his cat are bonded. Okay, that makes sense. Unless he's been fed. Josh and his cat are bonded. Okay, that makes sense. Unless he's been fed. In truth, he just shouts for meat and wants someone to give it to him. And if Melanie feeds him, it's absolutely fine. But he still comes back and says hi. So he is already barred from the bedroom.

So Melanie, you have one on that note. Do you feel that enforcement is not sufficiently consistent of this rule? I know that when I don't stay over, he sleeps with the cat in the bed. I know that. I would like the cheat

to have a little cheaty bed in the bedroom. No way. Because he scratches. Oh yeah, and another thing, he has fleas. He scratches and licks himself and it makes my skin crawl.

And I can't sleep if I can hear someone licking themselves well there now we finally found some common ground between you and me melanie i can't i can't either it's horrible just this the thought the thought of an adult human licking himself is enough to keep me awake at night a A cat I don't mind so much. But right. OK. You have a deep – like this is not a joke, right?

You're not playing this up for what you consider to be comedic effect. This is a true aversion that you're expressing, right? And the feelings and the strength with which you're expressing these feelings is an accurate gauge of your feelings, right? This is not part of a – No, this is who I am. I'm not going to amp this up for the podcast or anything like that, right? No, no, no, no. I am, you can ask anyone.

I'm a very vocal, opinionated person. I appreciate that. And all right. So I just, I just want to make sure because, you know, I tend to, you know, as I say, one of the tenets of the podcast is people like what they like.

But the flip side of that, of course, is like if people have honest repulsion to certain things and I would like them to not have to be exposed to the things that repulse them. Do you know what I mean? People should be able to not be exposed to the things that repulse them. The problem obviously here is that this is, you know, this is more than just does the cat come into the bedroom. Josh loves the cat to an extent that giving you what you want will mean denying him what he wants on some level. Do you know what I mean?

There is a zero-sumness to this game. And I dare any of you listening to write in and tell There is a zero-sumness to this game. And I dare any of you listening to write in and tell me I use zero-sum incorrectly. Because what this really comes down to, Melanie, is you find Katz repulsive in general, and this one specifically. Yes, because I don't think he's looked after properly either. He's neglected. Well, but you're forcing Josh to neglect him, aren't you? No. All right.

So what is Josh doing wrong as a cat owner? He is not emptying the litter tray on a frequent basis. Yeah, that's because he's got this whole incredible scheme that that's going to convince the cheat to go outside more often, which you now admit was wrong, right? I do. How often do you clean that litter box? Oh, every two days. Maybe three if I'm a bad person. I think that's pretty good in my experience. But let me tell you something. I'm hesitant to go down this road, Melanie, because I feel like you're throwing up a faint, a fake argument about him being a poor cat owner when the reality is, and this is where zero sum comes into it, you would never be perfectly satisfied. And it is okay for you to never be perfectly satisfied

until there is no cat. I don't know what to say. I would be happy. I would be happier if there was less hair around the house and Josh cleaned after the cat and cleaned the litter. It shouldn't be my job. That's not my job. And Josh, are you asking her to do those things? Either directly or by inaction? She does have a rather reflexive habit with housework.

Yeah, because I don't want cat hair on my clothes. Yeah, so that's the, like, oh, well, she's cleaning up cat hair anyway. It's close. Yeah, you are asking her to take care of your animal through inaction. Yeah, I bought a mini hoover. Yeah, but it doesn't work on the bed. It's not very good, is it? I'm still sweeping.

No, it's rubbish. It's rubbish. I'm going to buy a better one. Do you, do you, how large is the, how large is the home? Well, we've got a, it's a small handheld one. They're crap.

No, no. How large is your home? Excuse me. Home. It's a two bed, a two bed house. A single floor, two floors? Two floors. They're crap. No, no. How large is your home? Excuse me. Home. It's a two-bed house. Single floor, two floors? Two floors. The roof terrace.

Very nice. And a small garden that is patrolled by enemy cats. No garden. It's a back alley. It's the archetypal cat territory. You and the cheat lived in bucolic bliss at some point where he had free reign over many gardens and had conquered many lands.

Yes, in deepest Streatham. And was that a more rural area? No, actually, it was further into town. We just had a more extensive property there, which was subdivided. I took this house and my sibling has got other stuff. I see. And so, but the cheat goes outside still? Yeah, but I have to let him.

If we have to keep the cat flap locked at nights, I have to let him go outside and wait for him to come back in. I thought I could get him used to going business outside. Right. Okay. I thought I could get him used to going business outside. Right. OK. So, again, looking towards a solution to this problem that does not involve cat murder.

You know, in some couples, that would be an option. I'm not I'm not when I say cat murder, I am not necessarily, you know, there will be no cat murder. No, there will be no cat murder. Of course not. But I mean, you know, like short of giving the cat to a new home or something happening, what would be satisfactory to Melanie? So what I'm hearing so far is barred from the bedroom all the time, not just when she's staying there, but all the time. Correct, Melanie? I don't want it in the day. I don't want him at night.

I don't want it in the day. I don't want him at night. I don't want him in the morning. I want the door shut and I don't want him going in there, leaving hair in my makeup, on my clothes, leaving dirt on my duvet, on my pillows. I don't want cat evidence in one room in the house. I just want, please. And generally speaking, better management of cat detritus in the rest of the home as well? Indeed, Completely. And Josh, do you stand against those demands? Do you counter-argue those demands? I would love to have him have free room at the house.

It's the nicest room in the house. It has a little ledge where he can sit. I submitted some evidence of him looking absolutely adorable looking at his what's-names on Melanie's pillow. I don't have that. Bailiff Jesse, do you have that evidence before you? I do. I'm going to look at the evidence now.

We'll of course make this evidence available on the episode post at MaximumFun.org. So I would submit for evidence that he is extremely adorable and should be acceded to in most things I am of course fully taken over by the cat parasite Well first of all there's evidence of

Exhibit A, Josh and Melanie at the Royal Bad Word Club Excuse me And you guys are both adorable How old are you guys? I'm a lady. I would never say my age. I'm 35.

That's why I said you guys. I meant Josh and the cat. Right, exactly. I'm 35 and I'm of an appropriate age to be dating someone of my age. Very well. I'm over 18. And here is Exhibit B b the cheat in a place specifically a um a a bureau that's melanie's drawers oh he's sitting in your chest of drawers yeah well i didn't know this who's giving

who's submitting this evidence oh that's josh because i don't have your email address Well, Josh, are you submitting evidence? So this is him hanging around How did this happen? How did this photo have to have been posed? Actually, those are just general photos of the cheat He just hangs around When we first moved in, he had freedom of the house This is something that's been kind of imposed on him

Halfway through, it wasn't from the beginning. This is something that's been kind of imposed on him halfway through. It wasn't from the beginning. Yeah, because you chose to live with another human. Ah, yes. I tried to be nice in the beginning. I understand there's been a change in the quality of life of the cat. What I'm trying to suss out at this point is you can send in any picture of the cat, is you can send in any picture of the cat and you specifically send in a picture of your cat sitting in the dresser drawer of the girlfriend who doesn't want the cat.

And he's not lying down. He's sitting. I know. He's leaving his dirt on my drawers. Yes. He's placing his paws and his backside all over these clothes. That's cool. And I've lived with a lot of cats.

I've never known one that can open a chest of drawers. If I did, I'd be a millionaire. He probably tried on my clothes as well. So someone opened this drawer. Yeah, I wonder who. Melanie, do you leave your drawers open? Not often. Josh, I'll remind you you're under fake internet oath.

Did you pose this photo? I believe that was the day we moved in and the drawer was empty. Next photo, Exhibit C, the cheat infringing. Yes. Here is your cat. This is evidence you have put in, Josh. Yeah, he was was being bad he knew he wasn't allowed up on the bed yeah he's a cat this is a photo of the cat on one of your pillows licking himself in a private area now i'm not mad at the cat, Josh. The cat's going to do what cats do, that. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. And a cat doesn't know why it does anything. You know what? I can give you a perfect imitation of a cat at any moment in time. You want to hear it? Go on. Maybe I'll go over there now. But you are a human who has free will you're trying to prove a point and you're sending in evidence i'm not questioning the cat for doing this i'm

questioning why you are sending in these pictures this he's antagonizing me he is provoking me i am inclined to agree with you melanie, that Josh is using this court as some kind of personal art project. Oh, Your Honor, I protest. I object. I object. He's provoking me. He's winding me up. The picture was evidence to try and

balance the case, because I was just going to send cute pictures of the cheat. You should have. The cheat in the drawer being one of the cutest. He's a cat. Well, there are two things here. Either you are lying, right, because no one in their right mind who was sincerely, or you, and I think maybe is more likely, you find this cat, you are so toxoplasmodically poisoned by this cat. Yeah.

That you look at the precise things that Melanie finds to be gross, and you find them so adorable that the toxoplasmosis makes you take a picture and send it to me. Yes, you're right. So which is it, sir? And I warn you that you're under internet oath. Are you being sarcastic in my court or are you blinded by cat parasite? No, sir. I guess i may be a little blind yeah he loves the cat more than me yes i think that's probably true that in journalism is what we call the nut craft that's some crux right there that's the crux that crux we had before was false crux why don't you leave this weirdo um why are you living in this house that is filled with repulsion for you

it's it's just the cat everything else is fine yeah but you know what's gonna you know what the cat's not going here's the thing this cat will go away in time right i know yeah the cat will go away in time uh the the i would say what the cats have been living longer and longer it seems everyone i know has got a 20 year old cat oh my god so and and and the cheat is 12 and i would say you have four to five years more with this cat. Yes. And what's interesting is that as the cat gets older, it will only grow more disgusting. But if I have a baby, Josh said he'll get rid of the cat. So maybe I need to get pregnant this year.

Well, I have never heard of a better reason to get pregnant. No, seriously. Do you? So here's the thing. You're staring down the barrel of four years with this cat, even if I've come down very harshly on Josh and order him to make all best efforts to decatify the bedroom and to take better care to clean up after this possession that is his and not yours. You are still staring down the cat barrel of about, let's say, three to four years. Of course, if you allow the cat outside of the house routinely, then life expectancy goes down.

And given the strength of your feelings that you express, and you have assured me under internet oath that the strength of your feelings are honest and not exaggerated, why don't you move out? Because I can't afford to. All right. If you could afford to. Yeah. If you could afford to, would you move to your own place and wait for this cat to die and continue to see Josh? Josh wouldn't see me. I see. He would finish with me.

If you moved out? No, if I said, I'm sorry, I've got to move out because of the cat. Is that true, Josh? Oh, possibly. Possibly. I'd prefer not to put it to the test. I wish we could all get along. If you are truly and sincerely saying, look, I know that people in England listen to this.

The point is we've had English people on. I know that this podcast is out there and I appreciate that it may have a reputation for being a comedy podcast, but you guys are, and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that saying things like, if, if she can't live with my cat, I'm going to break up with her.

No, if she moves out, I will be done with her. Maybe. Or if he can't get rid of the cat, I'm going to break up with her. No, if she moves out, I will be done with her, maybe. Or if he can't get rid of the cat. These are strong things, and if you don't mean them 100%, I would prefer you not to say them. In that case, I will retract that. There's no way I'd let the cheat come between me and Melanie.

I'd just rather it come to that. Do you love your cat more than Melanie? No, I do not. It is a cat. If need be, I can put him in a box. Are you simply saying, have you simply learned what I want you to say and are now repeating it to me? No, no, I absolutely love Melanie. He's stubborn.

Can you give me some, do you need help? Is the cat in the room? He is. He's behind us. You guys love to fight, right? Yeah. You love to get into a fight. We do fight a lot.

Right? You do. We both love to win. I don't think we both love to fight. We both love to win. Do you know what a zero-sum game is? No. I don't either. It's a game where one person gets one point and another person gets zero. One person gets everything they want and the other person gets nothing of what they want, and that is the end of the game. I think.

I think that's true. It's a game where there can be no mutual benefit. Right. Where all positive action for one party is negative action for the other. Thank you very much. And we are in a zero-sum situation here. Where if – as long as the cat – well, if the cat remains, then Melanie is going to be constantly repulsed. Yes, but I'll have a baby.

I think. I have to have a baby. Let's, all right. With Josh? With anyone. All right. I think I've heard everything I need to hear. Because he said if I had a baby, he'd get rid of the cat. Because it's not, you know, it's not healthy to have a cat when you're...

I think I've heard everything I need to hear to make my decision. I am going to go into my room full of cats. Please rise as Judge John. And lie down and let them walk all over me as I come to my decision. I'll be back in a moment with the birdie. Exits the courtroom. Josh, how are you feeling about your chances in this case? I feel like the floor of a taxi cab.

As in well-trod upon? Yes. Melanie, how are you feeling? Thirsty. Thirsty. Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman's decision is when we come back in just a minute. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

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Just buy it online. This is professional-grade cookware that is available online directly to you, the consumer, at a very reasonable price. Yeah. If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a sound to happen. Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations, and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world, and you get to hear this sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird,

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And truthfully, you are both ciphers to me. And I think you are taking pleasure in the fact that I do not understand what your real motives are here. Because you have said such provocative things. From the beginning, when I said, you want to put this cat to sleep? And Melanie, you're like, yes. To now I'm going to have a baby with any man in order to get rid of the cat. It is bracing, I have to say, to confront both of you and try to suss out what is true and what is false. You people in England believe that we have no sense of subtlety over

here. And I think you both are trying to gaslight me to prove that it's true. But I see subtleties within subtleties. I'm the crux finder, you guys. Melanie, you can say provocative things and swear on my podcast all you like, trying to get under my skin, trying to distract me. But I'm still going to find that crux. And I got that crux. And the crux is that you like to fight with me and with each other. You take pleasure in feisty combat.

You like to wind people up. And this cat, this smelly, weird, dumb creature, is just a pawn. Get it? Pawn. Pawn. Get it? pawn. Get it? Pawn. Pawn. Get it? Get it, Jesse? Pawn. I would rather not have gotten it.

In your game. This is not a zero-sum game, because you are both getting mutual benefit from the fighting that you are enjoying over this issue. And I fully expect that if I were to find the short of the cat being put out of the house and your lives, there is no order I could make that would not ultimately be unsatisfying to Melanie.

If I bar that cat from the bedroom, then like 100% of the time, and you were to do it, Josh, before long, there would be another problem with the cat and then another and another. Because I do believe she's honestly repulsed by the cat. Just as I do believe you honestly love this creature and the adorable mythology that you have built up around it in your fantasy novel that you're writing about the cat. I wouldn't mind, by the way, publishing that entire history of the cheat, Reznor, your last name. If you send that in, I would like to publish that. The cheetasy. What's that? It's the cheetasy.

The cheetasy. Of course it is. That's evidence that you should have sent in in your favor. Yes, of course. Instead of trying to wind Melanie up and me up by putting your cat's butt on her underwear and taking a picture of it and sending it in. Because Melanie and Josh, you will find dispute. And maybe because you enjoy it so much, maybe you need this cat. Because if I ordered – not that I ever truly would because a man who has a cat deserves to see that cat to the full extent of its life and give it comfort at its end.

That's what being a cat owner, a pet owner of any kind means. The pleasure of having a pet is that it teaches you about death. It's coming for you, Josh. You're going to learn about it. I would never order Josh to get rid of the cat. I would never order him to put the cat out of his own home, especially since, to be quite fair, it's his home. He bought it with his money. And he deserves to have what he wants in it.

No offense, but if you guys had co-purchased this home 50-50, I might come down quite more harshly on the cheat than I'm going to because then Melanie, you have an ownership stake in the house but you don't. So it's just the way it goes unfortunately in a capitalistic system. But I will say that you have invited Melanie to live in your home. You both – you feel, Josh, I think under some of the levels, the deep levels of irony and sarcasm that you have been throwing at me, a real affection for her. And I dare say a love for her. a real affection for her and I dare say a love for her. And you must appreciate that life has its changes

just as, and perhaps this is why you are so resistant to change because just as the cheat has gone from mighty king to impotent in dotage. That his empire has crumbled and he is padding his paws towards the grave, chased by youth that despise him. That is the change that we will all endure. And so there is change in your life.

You are not a bachelor. You're not married, but you are not living alone. You have invited a human to share your life and your home. You can't live exactly the same way you are used to living just because someone wrote a poem about it at one point. And while I would never deny a man a cat in his own home that he bought with his own money, accommodations always have to be made for when another human lives with you. Or else the other human may not want to live with you anymore, which, by the way, Melanie, is a choice you can make if you want to.

But as long as Melanie chooses to live there, and as long as you choose to allow Melanie to live in your home and share it with her, then you have to take her repulsion seriously. then you have to take her repulsion seriously. And insofar as you are able to tease out what her honest feelings are underneath the bluster and the anger and the plain spokenness and get to the crux, if you are as skilled a crux finder as I am, then you will make adjustments. I will order these adjustments, not knowing at this point if indeed this will solve this problem or if not, or if perhaps the problem for you guys happens to be the solution.

But I will order that the cat may no longer be in the bedroom. The cat, the bedroom, Melanie must be allowed a cat free room. Thank God. That is fair. And the bedroom is a fair room to be cat free. Cause that is the place where you and Melanie are most intimate. I don't mean that in a gross way, but it is the place where you and she share your life most closely and where

she keeps things that don't, she doesn't want to have cats walking all over all the time. Particularly an outdoor cat that is not only walking in its own feces like an indoor cat, but is walking in the feces of many creatures. So true. Probably, yes. probably yes if if changing the litter tray i mean if you're really changing it every like every two days no it's about twice a week let's be honest here yeah it can slip a little and i have to say to him can you please do it can you please do it right the the well how many times

you how often would you like him to do it, Melanie? Well, you're supposed to do it every day, I think. I mean, that's a bit too much, but at least every other day. Every other day, I think, is reasonable. Be great. Every other day is reasonable, and that has to happen. And the other thing about living with another person is that there are always different standards of cleanliness. And each has to become aware of what that standard of cleanliness is and make accommodations in their own lives and not make the other person responsible

for their standard of cleanliness. In other words, you got to pick up after your cat. You know what I'm saying? Dust and sweep. If you don't do it, you should be doing it anyway. Now's the time. You have to take a more proactive role in vacuuming and maintaining cat hair and cat residue and getting it out of the house so that it is a place for humans first and not cats. Now, that I order because that is how it should be between humans. Because that is how it should be between humans. I wish you both the best of luck in getting to the crux, the secret double crux of whatever is going on with each other. And I hope you enjoy fighting with each other for many years to come. Thank you. But I do, but I do find in favor.

Oh, and I will say one last thing, which is Melanie. Don't have a baby to get rid of a cat. I can't imagine you were being serious. No, well, but if you do get pregnant,

just not that it would ever happen anyway, but then you really can't handle the litter box at all because of toxoplasmosis. You know that. I find in favor of Melanie. This is the sound of a gavel. Meow, meow, meow, meow. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Melanie, how do you feel? Fantastic. Thank you so much. Are are you still thirsty did you get something to drink i am i'm gonna wait till the show finishes that was i have to say honestly that

was one of the best laughs i've ever had on this show that was one of the greatest responses i've ever heard josh how are you doing i am shell shocked um chastened but i i shall survive and i should take care of the cheat it sounds like your love may survive as well. Josh, Melanie, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. It was great to talk to you. Thank you. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney.

I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because, yes, listening is mandatory.

The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Judge Hodgman, how do you think you've been affected by toxoplasmosis? Would you say that you're less risk-averse? Do you find yourself being caught and consumed by cats because you're no longer wary of them? I'm sorry, I can't. I have a cat that is chewing on my earlobe right now. It just seemed like a good idea. Where could

the risk be? So I allowed it to happen, but I can't hear due to the raspy tongue as it devours my ear. This week's case was named by Tessa Kletty Keller. Thanks, Tessa. Thank you, Tessa Kletty Keller. Thanks, Tessa.

Thank you, Tessa Kletty Keller. You can like us on Facebook. Just search for Judge John Hodgman to name future episodes of the program. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. JJHO. MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. JJ HO. .org slash JJHO. No case too big or too small.

But weirdly, there are cases that are too medium. Yeah. So try and take it one way or the other. Go big or go small. I'm looking forward to seeing everyone at SF Sketch Fest. If you've already got tickets to the Judge John Hodgman show, you can catch Jordan Jesse Goh as well on Saturday afternoon, which is February 7th, I believe.

Yes, that's correct. At Cobb's Comedy Club with my brother, my brother, and me. What else? I would check that out if I could. Yeah, absolutely. absolutely oh one other thing we're right in the middle of the Kickstarter campaign for MaximumFun.org first ever video show

Brian and Lindsay will totally eat that oh cool so go to Kickstarter I'll kick some starts in you're welcome go to Kickstarter search for Brian and Lindsay will We'll totally eat that. Or just go to MaximumFun.org and follow the link. I am really excited to make this show.

You can watch the pilot there. It's a really, really fun, funny show. You can find out what they think about chocolate Twizzlers is the first thing that they ate. They were, well, I'm not going to give you any spoilers. Chocolate Twizzlers. Hershey's Chocolate Twizzlers. Hershey's Chocolate Twizzlers.

Hershey's. Yes. Chocolate Twizzlers. Yes. And just to be clear, they are Twizzlers with the flavor of chocolate, not chocolate with the flavor of Twizzlers. And if I may just say something about SketchFest, Jesse, I'm looking forward to seeing all of our Bay Area fans at the show. Jesse, I'm looking forward to seeing all of our Bay Area fans at the show. Whether or not you have tickets to our big live show and whether or not you're going to see Jordan and Jesse go,

you can see me the Thursday night before our show when I do Riff Tracks with Mike Nelson and Kevin Murphy and good old Bill Corbett with special guest Adam Savage. That sounds like a blast. It's going to be a blast and three quarters of a blast. Can I ask you a question? Yeah a blast. It's going to be a blast and three quarters of a blast. Can I ask you a question? I think there's going to be any nerds there? No. Oh, it's jocks only, huh? It's one of their rare jocks only shows.

Gotcha. So bring your corduroy baseball hats. Uh-huh. And your golf shirts and your snowshoes. Snowshoes. And your polo mallets for entry.

Bring your Jaiowai equipment. Oh. To, okay, our show is produced by Julia Smith, edited by Mark McConville. You can find us online at MaximumFun.org. You can discuss the show on Reddit at MaximumFun.reddit.com, on our forum at Forum.MaximumFun.org, on our Facebook group or on Twitter with the hashtag JJHo. JJHo. JJHo.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Super Podcast. I'm trying to sound more like a professional podcast. JJHo. JJHo. JJHo. JJHo.