Judge John Hodgman - The Lovely Couple

Episode Date: December 8, 2010

A married couple disagrees: is physical attractiveness a component of romantic love?

It's the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the case of the lovely couple. Thomas and Kirsten are newlyweds. Thomas brings the complaint. He alleges that all attraction is based in part on physical attractiveness. Kirsten demurs. She says that physical attractiveness is irrelevant in attraction. Only one man can decide this dispute. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Thank you, Bailiff Jesse.

You may be seated if you were actually standing. Which was it? Were you standing up or no? No. No. I'm just taking a little poll. Just taking a little poll. That's 35 no's and one yes. Bailiff Jesse, would you please swear in the plaintiff and the defendant? Plaintiff Thomas, please rise. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, no matter how bad an idea it might seem to do so? I definitely do.

You may be seated. Defendant Kirsten, please rise. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's binding ruling, even if it seems like it would be a catastrophic mistake? Yes, I do. You may be seated. Judge Hodgman? Were you standing up that time?

No, I'm sorry. It's okay. It's okay. Just clearly you don't take this very seriously. That's fine. I was afraid of making too much noise. I understand. And what were you afraid of, Tom much noise. I understand. And what were you afraid of, Tom? Excuse me, Thomas. Is that right? Thomas?

That is right. And I'll just say, Thomas, would you state the nature of the complaint, please? Yes. My wife and I have had a disagreement since before we were married about exactly what a mate choice entails. And my opinion is that physical attractiveness is one of the most important things, if not the most important thing. Because even if not consciously, you are subconsciously always rating someone's physical attractiveness, and you won't even give them a chance to find out their personality

if you don't find them attractive. And I presume you find your now wife attractive? Yes, very attractive. We may stipulate to that very well. Kirsten, how do you respond to the complaint? I do not find myself rating people's attractiveness. When I first meet them I tend to go just on how they act with me and I think I would much rather spend my life with someone who I find funny and who's nice before I found them good-looking although I do find him good-looking okay all right that's that's just what I was going to clarify there I thought that was a little bit of a backhanded compliment no no no it was let's just what I was going to clarify there. I thought that was a little bit of a backhanded compliment. No, no, no. Let's just call it a backhanded compliment saved at the last moment with an actual compliment. But we all know what you were saying.

First of all, you both have very beautiful radio voices, by the way, perfect radio voices. But as we were talking about visual attractiveness, and radio is, after all, a visual medium, let's go to the evidence. I believe you have sent in a photograph. Is that correct? That is correct. All right. Let's enter this photograph as Exhibit A, Jesse. And Thomas, will you describe the photograph?

It was a picture of my wife and I on our wedding day. You both look terrific. It looks like it was a happy day. You both look very young in this photo. How old are you now, and when were you married? I'm 21. You are 21 years old and married. Yes.

All right. And we got married on August 14th. Of this year. Yes, this year. Very well. And Thomas, you are 49. I am close, 24. You're 20.

Going on 25. Okay, that's fine. You don't want to advance your age any further. 24 is fine. It's a good age. Boy, oh boy. How long have you guys known each other? Three and a half years.

How long were you dating before you got married? One year. One year. You kids move fast these days. Boy, oh boy. Okay, good. Yes. So tell me about the first time you ever laid eyes on Thomas. Do you want to know the real story? Obviously. The question to that answer is always yes. Okay.

So just give me your podcast safe story. I was just at a grocery store buying some products for the pizza shop I worked at. And he wasn't actually working there at the time. And I don't remember. We were just talking about what I was buying the stuff for, I guess. Wait, so you met in the grocery store? Yeah. Yeah, but we kind of knew of each other because of working at the pizza place.

So to speak. And just kind of making small talk about the pizza place, I guess. Sure. Thomas, do you remember this encounter? How do you remember it? I do remember it, and I chose to talk to her because she was attractive then. And I think she remembers me because I was attractive then, because it was a very inconspicuous little talk, but she still remembers it somehow. Well, well, Kirsten, what do you remember noticing first about Thomas?

I remember noticing that he was friendly and nice. And when you met him, did you have a sense that you wanted to breed with him? I can't say that I did. I was a little shy, so I did not leave. Well, not at the moment in the DiGiorno aisle. I'm not talking about that. But taking a look at him, do you say that is... No, I did not think I would have a future with him. Oh, you did not?

Why not? Because I didn't know him. I see. And what efforts did you make? So how was it that you began? First of all, may I say thank you for telling me the real story? I can see why you don't tell that story to a lot of people. It is a little embarrassing.

And it's a little ribald. But thank you for opening up and telling me that you guys met in a grocery store. I appreciate that. Now, you started dating after that. And once you started dating, did he ask you started dating Did he ask you out? Do you want a story about that too? Yes, I do Anytime you ask me if I want a story

I'm going to say yes Oh, okay Well, there's not really any story It was just We didn't start dating, obviously Until like two years after we had met And we had worked at the pizza shop for two years together. So two years after you, what aisle was it in the grocery store?

Do you remember? I don't remember that. Aisle three? Sounds good. No, it was the dairy aisle. Yeah, the dairy aisle. Okay, got it. So three years after you.

No, it was the checkout. Okay. Okay, got it. So three years after you... No, it was a checkout. Okay. But the point is, three years, Thomas, after you started creeping up on this poor young woman because you thought she was attractive,

and because you thought she was attractive, you were still pining for her while you were flipping pizzas and making Greek salad. It was three years later that you finally asked her out or you guys connected in some special way? Yes, we worked together fairly often, but we didn't see each other outside of work, so our relationship couldn't develop too quickly.

And I was dating somebody else for a while. Aha, aha, aha, aha, aha. I see. I was dating somebody else for a while. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. I see. So that had to end first before I could make any moves on my wife, Kirsten. I got you.

You had to break up with your girlfriend before you could make any moves on your wife. I understand. I sort of have the same story. any moves on your wife. I understand. I sort of have the same story. Now, Kirsten, when you were dating, what efforts did you make to determine Thomas's physical health, his breeding capacity, and his strength? Did you consult his doctor? No, this is a weird question. I don't really have an answer to that. Well, you're saying that you didn't really notice whether or not he was attractive, so I'm just trying to determine. Did you do a facial symmetry test? Did you check his teeth? Did you do even a basic phrenology examination?

No, I did not do any of that. And yet you decided to marry him. Yes, well, that's because I liked his personality. I see. And do you think, just allow me to ask the questions, please. Bailiff Jesse, I'm going to treat the defendant as hostile. Charming, but hostile. Noted.

I've got my bear spray. Knowing how touchy you were about the story about meeting your husband in a grocery aisle, I hesitate to ask a simple question as this, but I will anyway. Do you think that you guys will have children in the future? Absolutely. Okay, so if you did not speak to his doctor to determine his breeding health, if you did not do a facial symmetry test or check his tooth condition, how do you know what sort of genes he will be passing along to your potential offspring? And how do you evaluate how well Thomas will provide for them? I don't know.

I see. I see. You did see him make some pizzas. Is that correct? I did. Was he good at it? Sure. He was great at it.

And he still works at the pizza store, I presume? No. What is his job now? He is a PCA for a 13-year-old boy, and he teaches martial arts to some kids. I apologize. What is a PCA? Personal care assistant. I see.

Is that right, Thomas? Very good. And you teach martial arts, so you are physically fit. Yes. All right. But you say that it was not his incredible martial arts prowess and care for young people that attracted you. It was his personality. How would you describe his personality?

Well, he's very funny, and he always makes me laugh. And he's super friendly to anyone he meets. Yeah, and just a nice person. And he's super friendly to anyone he meets. Yeah, and just a nice person. And he's very smart. Thomas, I'm going to treat you as a hostile witness now. Yes, Your Honor. Thomas, in your original complaint, you stipulated that the discussion was founded on the fact that you are both physically attractive, both you and your wife. Is that correct?

Yes. All right. What evidence can you provide to support this claim? I know that I am physically attractive. Okay, let's stop there for a moment. You know what? I'll let you finish. I'll see where this is going.

Just because why? All right. As I was saying, I know I'm physically attractive and I wouldn't choose to date someone if they weren't at least as physically attractive as I am. Kirsten, you like, you like confident guys? Sure, I guess I do. Okay. Well, you know, I'm looking at this photo here, and your wife is very pretty. You're not a bad-looking fellow. You're welcome.

You're not a bad-looking fellow here. You know, I'm just going to give you some objective assessment here. You've got a very – just looking at this photo, but, you know, it's one photo, but as you say, it was by a professional photographer, so I know it's good. You have a very tall brow, a little simian, I gotta say. A nice haircut, nice eyebrows. You're a little bit of an overbite, I'd say, but a good smile. You are basically symmetrical and I like that. I also noticed that you are extremely tall compared to your wife. Are you? Yes. Are you standing on artificial stilt legs or what is going on there? Those are actually my real legs.

How tall are you? I am right around 6'4". So Kirsten, you are a normal sized person. I am. Don't take my criticisms of you personally here, Tom. I am not a handsome person myself, but I need to be honest with you. I see you were wearing a tuxedo in this photo. I was. I presume that it is a rental tuxedo or do

you own that tuxedo? It was rented. And you have a bow tie here. Did you tie that tie yourself? I did not. It was one of those ones. I don't remember how that got on. It clips on. Well, I can tell you how it got on. It clips on. Well, I can tell you how it got on. It got on crookedly. Did you notice that? I did not notice that. I say very well. Still very attractive.

But the visual message you're sending here is that you are someone, and this is just the pure visual message you're sending on your wedding day. You are sending a message that you are someone who can successfully imitate prosperity for at least one day by renting a tuxedo. You are not particularly dexterous in your fingers. You can't tie a tie or make it straight. But you make up for it genetically by offering your brides, potential children, the gift of freakish height or possibly stilt legs. Would that be fair? That sounds pretty accurate, yes. You do have an honest assessment of yourself. I like that.

Thomas, why don't you make your closing argument? Because I can tell you've given this a lot of thought. I myself am very attractive. I'll start it out for you. I myself am very attractive. And I like my ladies the same way. That is correct so far. I wouldn't be seen around town with some dumpy looking broad. And I doubt my girl would feel any differently about me. So it's lucky for her. I'm good looking.

That sounds about right. No, go ahead. You make your own. Okay. Thank you. I'm a mean man. I'm a mean old man today. The young kids got married.

I believe that Kirsten has a misconstrued perception of how she's attracted to me. I think she wants herself to be not a shallow person. So she makes me out to be just a big sack of happy personality when really she is very attracted to me. And she's told me she is before. So I think she's really downplaying it by what she said here. And I just hope you consider that in your judgment. Thank you. Okay, Kirsten. I'm going to sum that up as your husband feels that you are lying about how hot he is now.

What is your closing argument? All right. Well, I do think that he's attractive. I never said that he wasn't. It's just not his physical looks that attracted me to him in the beginning. It was his humor and his personality that I liked. And then the fact that I liked him as a person made me like his physical looks. And then, yeah, and then it was just all a little perfect package. So yeah, that's all I got, I guess.

All right, I feel I'm ready to make my ruling. I'm going to go to my chambers. I'm going to consider the evidence and I'll come back to you with my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Kirsten, were you surprised at the, let's say, the of your husband, Thomas's argument? No, we've had this argument a lot. And he generally takes the position that he is physically attractive as the basis of his argument. Not generally. There's always a bunch of different things, but I guess sometimes. Thomas, do you think that it was a mistake to essentially predicate your argument on the assumption that you are a handsome man?

No, I don't. Because part of what makes me feel as though I'm handsome is the fact that my wife is so beautiful. And I don't believe she would be with someone who was unattractive. My wife is a beautiful woman and I don't believe she would be with someone who was unattractive. My wife is a beautiful woman, and I'm not an especially handsome man. I think you must be wrong then. Well, thank you. That's very nice of you, Thomas. I think. If I'm following your pieces here correctly, that's very nice of you. Kirsten, it sounds like you've faced the fire hoses of this argument before.

Do you have high hopes for Judge John Hodgman's ruling? I'm hoping, but yeah, I guess I do. Thomas, there's a part of me that watching this case unfold felt that no matter what Judge John Hodgman's ruling was, you would come out the loser. Do you think there is a ruling that Judge John Hodgman could issue that could pull the foot out of your mouth? think that if he came back in my favor that I can endure any type of embarrassment just as long as I can get the record set straight and get the facts down that physical attractiveness is the most important or one of the most important things that you do to choose who you're going to be with. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. Are you standing up this time? I sat up straighter.

I'm standing. Thank you. Thank you. You may be seated. You're welcome. Thank you. You may be seated, Kirsten, and you, Thomas, may go back to slouching. I bet you do all the time because you have to speak to normal-sized people all the time.

All right. Let us stipulate, when it comes to mating, visual attractiveness, as shallow as it seems, it matters. Across all species, it plays a critical... Well, across all species that have eyes, it plays a critical, well, across all species that have eyes, it plays a critical role in mating selection. In most animal groupings, it is specifically the female who selects her mate. And she does so based on her ability to provide her healthy offspring that will continue her genetic line forward into history.

That is our chief biological pressure of evolution to pass on our genes so that they may be immortal because we die. And the physical body is one of the chief ways that the female gets clues, not only to her potential mate's genetic vigor, but what sort of genes he's going to be passing along. The female is typically much more selective because her reproductive capacity is limited once pregnant. She is out of the running for nine months, whereas Thomas can go around impregnating people all the year long no matter what. And I presume that that is what he does. But I presume, but I know that is not what he does because evolutionarily speaking, you two are completely backwards. Kirsten, you are saying that you will go out with anyone in the world regardless of how ugly he is because of his personality. Evolutionarily, that's a bad play. Thomas says he will only mate with attractive women,

which is about as shallow as you could expect from a human man in America. But as a male animal, he is lying, because male animals are biologically programmed to be as undiscriminating as possible. This is not to say that you two are lying. You are simply part of a very common perversion of civilization, the reversal of biological impulse to create the sort of stable society that allows us to concentrate less on mating and more on inventing Skype so that you are familiar with. It is one that I am familiar with. It is called marriage. Monogamy goes against every biological impulse that we have to mate frequently and recklessly. Some would argue that this is exactly why it should be abolished. Those of us who enjoy marriage, like myself, would disagree. For one, it is a beautiful relationship that, when functional, provides each person with a kind of lifelong companionship that few other mammals

enjoy. And for two, were it not for the incredible pervasiveness of marriage, it is likely that men like Thomas and me would not be mating very much at all. But it would be foolish to argue that marriage does not exist, and unattractive people are getting married all the time, and happily so. So while it was never your argument, Thomas, that attractiveness is the only deciding factor, I think that you need to accept the grace and compliment your wife pays you when she says that it is not even for her

a main deciding factor. She is simply trying to be a civilized human being. And I think that it's clear she's telling you the truth because she met you. I mean, despite the electric sexual attraction you guys had in either the aisle three or the checkout line of the grocery, she waited years before she started dating you. And it wasn't just because you were waiting to dump your other girlfriend. I think

she was waiting to see if she liked you. She was waiting to see how good a martial artist you were. She was waiting to see if you were ever going to stop wearing those phony legs, or if that was actually your height. She was waiting, waiting. The sexual, the physical attractiveness was not the primary deciding point for her. So you should really stop worrying about it and stop having to tell everyone that you're attractive all the time. Now that said, I rarely find in favor of the husband. At the end of the day, though, Thomas, you are correct. Attractiveness still is. We are still animals, and attractiveness still is among the most important factors that we have in choosing a mate, evolutionarily speaking. But also evolutionarily speaking, I am a heterosexual male, Your wife is pretty and I don't care what you think.

So I'm finding in her favor anyway. The sentence, the sentence for you, Thomas, is that you have to do these things. First of all, learn to tie a bow tie. Second of all, a real one and put it on straight. Okay. Okay. Second of all, what is your, what is your weight now? 225. You're in pretty good shape.

You're a martial artist, right? Yes. Okay. If you want to maintain that attractiveness is the most important part of why people get together, you have to maintain, uh, what is your body fat level? Not much. All right. Let's just say 0%. You got to stay at 225, 0% body fat and within the six foot three to six foot four inch range until you

are 75. That is your sentence in life. You must do that. Judge John Hodgman rules. This is the sound of a gavel. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Kirsten, this decision was a shocking turnabout, a stern rebuke to your husband. How are you feeling right now? I feel like I got what I wanted. right now? I feel like I got what I wanted, even though that wasn't the end results, but I feel like I'm still right. Thomas, Judge Hodgman stipulated to the correctness of your argument, but in the end he decided in favor of your wife how are you feeling i'm feeling a little

let down uh i was really looking forward to be able to lord this over my wife whenever anything about this argument came up um i just want to jump in here and say you guys are looking forward to a long and happy marriage. You guys are going about this just the right way. I love how you guys have been in this for August, September, October, November, four months.

And you're already planning out your grudges. It's fantastic. I'm sorry, Thomas. Go ahead. Basically, I'm sad I didn't win, and I was already planning on staying 6'4", around 225 pounds at the age of 70 anyway.

So that wasn't much of a sentence. I already intend to remain just as hot as I am, no matter what I have to do. Well, short of surgery. Oh, boy. Kirsten, you got yourself a good one. No, you guys sound like very nice kids, and

you sound very happy together, and I wish you all the best. Thank you. The Judge Sean Hodgman podcast is produced by myself, Jesse Thorne, and Julia Smith for MaximumFun.org. MaximumFun.org is supported by your donations. Visit us online at MaximumFun.org slash donate to support all our programs. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, email us with the details and your contact information.

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