Judge John Hodgman - The Mother Tongue

Episode Date: October 3, 2012

Matthew and Y want to raise their children to be bilingual in English and in Y's native language, Vietnamese. Matthew's Vietnamese is pretty rusty, so he thinks Y should teach him and their children at the same time. Y thinks that Matthew needs to study on his own until he can keep up. Who is right?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the mother tongue. Matthew brings the case against his wife, E. They want to raise their children to be bilingual in English and Vietnamese. E is from Vietnam and bilingual, and Matthew lived there for a few years but says his language skills are pretty rusty. E currently takes charge of speaking Vietnamese with their daughter, but thinks Matthew should step up to the plate and study the language on his own until he becomes fluent too. Matthew says E should just immerse him in the language so the whole family can learn it once. Who is right and who is wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman enters the courtroom. Indeed, the record shows that Jesse Thorne once held the rank of bailiff,

and that bailiff Jesse was broken to deputy bailiff for taking matters into his own hands. Ray, the shutting of pie holes in defiance of regulations of the law. Do you deny being demoted for these charges? Don't wait for the translation. Answer me now. Swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?

I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he has chosen to raise his children speaking only Esperanto, the international language. I do. I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman? Saluton, Jesse. Saluton, Matthew and E. Of course, Bailiff Jesse, I do not intend to demote you to Deputy Bailiff.

But don't get too comfortable, okay? Because I might do it at any moment. I got Monty Belmonte nipping at my heels. I might strip an epaulette off your uniform at any time. For an immediate summary judgment in that person's favor, can either you, Matthew, or you, E, name the specific piece of popular culture that I was referencing as I beamed into the courtroom? I cannot.

No, you cannot either, E. Oh, Salyuton, indeed. I'm going to use Salyuton to express a lot of different emotions today. Salyuton, of course, being the greeting in Esperanto, as George Soros knows, as does, by the way, the actor who played Captain Kirk. William Shatner is one of the few actors that I know who starred in an Esperanto language film. Did you know that? I didn't. And he also starred in a movie called Star Trek VI, The Undiscovered Country. That one I've heard of. In which Christopher Plummer playing Admiral Chang yells more or less those words at Admiral then Captain Kirk, at Admiral then Captain Kirk,

evoking the words spoken by Adlai Stevenson to Valerian Zorian in an emergency session of the United Nations during the Cuban Missile Crisis. So connections within connections, all of them pertaining to language and mistranslation. Matthew, you bring this case to this court. What justice do you seek? Jesse pretty much nailed it on his little speech there, but... Well, I don't listen to that. So I don't listen to that at all. That is usually when I'm in a panic state looking up what the piece of cultural reference I shall reference. And I don't listen

at all. So why don't you restate it for me now absolutely sure yeah basically the uh the ongoing argument has been that we we both really want to raise uh our daughter win in uh in a bilingual uh household and that we want her to speak both languages uh as well as be immersed in in vietnamese culture the problem there is that my v isn't much better than than my daughters and uh whenever we try to do the so you're saying both you and your both both you and your daughter are dum-dums is that what you're saying uh when it comes to Vietnamese my my wife would argue that my daughter is probably better than me actually but I'm not sure I agree. However, anytime we try to just have a 100% Vietnamese, let's just speak it at home thing, it typically lasts a couple hours at the most and then people get frustrated and revert back to English. I feel like that's just a kind of a hump that we need to

get over and maybe the first little bit might be tough. Maybe we're going to be limited in our vocabulary, but I think it's something that we can get over. And I feel like I have tried self-study and reading books and other ways for Vietnamese and other languages, and it just doesn't seem to work for me. I don't think your study of Portuguese is going to help you very much in your family situation.

So maybe you can, first of all, let's put aside all the other languages that you might be studying and focus on the Vietnamese. So the issue is that you want to have a bilingual home, but you are too dumb to speak Vietnamese. Am I putting that correctly? Yeah, that's about it. E, would you disagree? No. Okay. What is the situation from your point of view? Well, I was kind of joking that he's dumb. But I think not everybody can

learn to speak second language. May I remind you that you are under oath? So if you say your husband is dumb. Okay. Okay. So my point of view, sorry. I just wanted to stipulate you are under oath. So I'm putting dumb down as a point of reference unless you are perjuring yourself. Okay. Well, okay. Back to my point of view.

Very well. I learned English, a second language. And now I guess I could say I'm fluent, even though I don't think my English is that good. But anyway... You're doing fine. I think learning the language is pretty much like self-learning.

And you get support and you'll practice with people who speak the language, like native speaking. But with Matt, he wanted me to sit down and teach him like a child, like in kindergarten. And I don't think it worked for an adult. He wants you to teach him. Yeah.

Okay. And I tried, but it didn't work. Okay. It sounds like where you're the teacher and he's the student, it sounds like a little sexy role play in the boudoir. Is that what you mean? No, it wasn't like that. I'm sorry to suggest that then.

No, it certainly wasn't sexy at all. It was quite, I don't know. It was quite, I don't know, it was quite, I don't know, frustrating and upsetting, actually. Frustrating and upsetting may also describe someone's sex life, but let's put that aside for a moment. How are you teaching? What is your daughter's name, please? Her name is Nguyen. Okay, Nguyen, lovely. And how old is she? She's four and a half now. Four and a half. And how old is she? She's four and a half now. Four and a half.

And how have you been teaching her the Vietnamese language? Well, I've been speaking with her kind of like on and off since she was born. Lately, I guess when she's older, like three, four, the past two years, i tried to speak to her more i even um invite my mom from vietnam to come stay with us for a while so that she can i have extra support in terms of like speaking vietnamese to her because my mom cannot speak english so i thought that would be something good for her to practice with her but with a child of my age, in my experience seeing friends raise children bilingually and what little internet research I have done, a child of that age, you are basically instructing through immersion.

By speaking to the child, you're not sitting down and doing grammar and compensions. No, no, no, no. We just speak to her. Well, me. I speak to her in Vietnamese and try to read stories of her and stuff. Right. Because Matt is constantly speaking to her in Pago Pago and all the other languages that he is in Tagalog and all the other languages that he is learning in his spare time instead of Vietnamese. And if 100% is fluency in Vietnamese, at what percentage would you put your daughter's fluency at this time? Oh, well, I have to look at it in speaking and listening, I guess. She doesn't

want to speak Vietnamese because I guess it's frustrating her. I don't know. I don't understand why. She just responds to me in English, but she could understand, I would say, 30%. And speaking? Speaking, well, she could pronounce words very well if I make her repeat like every single word. But to respond to me by herself, I would say like 5, 10%. Okay. And you would like to get her up to 100% in both categories? Or what is your goal here? Yeah.

Yeah. I would love to get her fluent in Vietnamese. Okay. All right. I'm not an expert in child language development, but as I say, what little internet research I have done suggests that kids are fully capable, particularly under three and then moving forward if they start under three, of absorbing and holding two languages simultaneously at the same time. So, you know, it may be that she doesn't choose to speak the language, but her comprehension is higher than her speaking. And that sounds about right to me of where she is.

Would you agree? I mean, I don't know. Sounds good to me. But you would like to get her comprehending more and speaking more, right? Yeah, absolutely. And you would like your husband's help in this. Exactly. Actually, we had Gina yesterday, and I tried to make her speak Vietnamese to me because she just responded in English.

And then she said, I wish I was daddy. And we asked why. She said, well, was daddy and we asked why she said well because daddy doesn't have to speak Vietnamese whoa Matt it's true I don't want to not speak Vietnamese I would love to also be fluent and and I I wouldn't put Wyn's comprehension at 30% either, but I guess I'm not the expert of the Vietnamese. Well, what would you put it at? I'd put maybe her comprehension at 10 to 15 and the words I've heard her speak, 1 to 2%. So your estimation is that your daughter is really dumb.

You're under- Well, in Vietnamese, I don't think she's too much better than I am. Do you share your wife's goal of attaining a bilingual household? Yes. I think that would be great. So how come you're not helping out? I don't feel like I'm the only one to blame. Like, uh, I feel like when we do try to speak Vietnamese, you know, kind of the,

what happens is we just kind of sit around and don't talk to each other because there isn't much to say. Um, I'm willing to try and I always want to start again. Okay, let's just do the no more English. And then, you know, and I just feel like the push has to be done by my wife, not by myself, because for me, just speaking Vietnamese is going to be saying certain words and pointing at things. And it's not really very good immersion. So even though your wife is already training your daughter to speak Vietnamese while you watch Esperanto movies. Incubus, by the way, was the name of the William Shatner Esperanto film. It is a horror movie from

1966. In Esperanto, it's Incubo. Sorry, but I guess no one watches Incubus. Well, I'll have to check that out. Well, no, I don't know that you have to check that out. I think you have other things to pay attention to right now. So please don't start playing this movie on your device while I'm trying to talk to you. Why don't you go out and learn

Vietnamese again? You know, you have some Vietnamese from presumably... Yeah, I would say when I was living there, I wasn't too bad. I could carry a short conversation. You know, the important things, like where's the bathroom and that kind of thing. Say where's the bathroom in Vietnamese? It's down the hall. I'm already smarter than your daughter. Well, I'm not sure I understand

what your argument is. Either your argument is you're incapable of bettering your Vietnamese in order to help out in the household, right? Or that you just shouldn't be asked to do that. Which is it? I guess my argument is we need to do the immersion way. Right. And it's more like he's going to be immersing me and my daughter at the same time. And her argument is that I should be studying and then becoming more of a teacher. No, I think that, is that your argument, E? I don't want to state that.

I don't want to state your argument. No. What is your argument? Well, I explained that his age and my daughter's age are very different. It's like a huge gap. She learned a different way and he learned a different way. I cannot teach him like the way I teach my daughter. Right now I'm just speaking to her and make her repeat everything I say and then explain to her

okay so this is this is that. But for him he's much older and and that is not how I just don't think it would work if I teach them the same time. And I don't see him that much, actually. He works all day and we see each other like four hours a day. Right. When you did teach him, or when you did endeavor to teach him, did you teach him via just speaking Vietnamese to him as you would your daughter? Or did you actually sit him down? We tried both.

Did you rent a language lab? Did you make him sit and listen to Vietnamese instruction records while you monitored his accent? What happened? No, she made me learn the alphabet. Let's hear it. That's embarrassing, right? It's the same alphabet.

They use the same letters. Well, let's all of us stipulate to a difference here, to a definition here of language instruction versus language immersion. pronunciation and so on in a teaching student environment, which may be conducted entirely in the other language, but nonetheless is people doing exercises and drills to remember how you say words in a certain way. And then gradually, as you gain more proficiency, you compose sentences and little essays and so on and begin to move into conversational language, conversational conversation. Whereas immersion truly means just throwing yourself into the situation in a non-structured way where you are learning the language out of sheer necessity in order to eat, to get around and figure out where the bathroom is.

Can we agree on those terms? I agree on those terms. However, I think ease isn't exactly instruction so much as she just wants me to open the book and read it and learn myself. But there are other ways. Okay, go ahead, E, please. Sorry. No.

I actually disagree with that. We try to sit down and did SSI. I taught him vocabulary. I make him do SSI and then he he just forget about it right after like he doesn't follow up. He doesn't I don't know. He doesn't keep going with his study. He just got to drop it if I don't sit there and remind him you have to study Vietnamese, get your book out, and, you know. He didn't do his homework.

He didn't do his homework. No, he just, yeah. And how much may I ask, did he pay you for this language instruction service? Did he compensate you financially for this language instruction service? No. No, of course the answer is no, isn't it? Because that is something you could pay someone for, Matt, couldn't you? I suppose there is places where that could be done.

I also feel like I just don't have a lot of time to do that kind of thing. I mean, I feel like the immersion would just be the best way since it's just us living life just in Vietnamese, you know? And I feel like I know that the first few weeks are going to be tough. Let me ask you. Okay. I'm sorry. The first few weeks are going to be tough, but then what? But I think there is a bell curve. And I think after that, we'll get over it and it will become easier and more rewarding.

So what you're saying is that it's going to be hard for a little while, and then it's going to get immediately incredibly easier. Is that right? Well, maybe not incredibly, but I feel like after the original bump, things will become easier, yeah. bump, things will become easier. Yeah. But so, so in other words, tell me what you, what you expect to happen is that there will be a time when it is determined that you will only speak Vietnamese in the house, both you and your daughter and all, all three of you, and that you will speak no English, but instead in an immersive style, attempt to figure out where the bathroom is in your own home. I'm speaking only Vietnamese. Is that what you're suggesting? Yeah, I think, I mean, obviously, if there's an emergency and I really, really need to get something through, then I'll just speak to English.

Well, then anything could be an emergency. Do you know what I mean? But then anything could be an emergency. Do you know what I mean? In general, I want to speak maybe at least 99% Vietnamese in the house in the day. I need to eat that banh mi sandwich right now. That's an emergency that I often have. The problem is going to come up when you don't know what the Vietnamese word for banh mi is. I know, exactly. I think I know what it is.

I'm not that bad. I know exactly what you just said. I know what that is. I'm not that bad. I know exactly what you just said. I know what that is. I know Banh Mi is a sandwich. I'm not as bad as she says I am. I have a feeling like me living there, I have a lot of it in my head that kind of comes out. When I do start speaking it, I think I'm going to be able to pull from that reservoir again.

Judge Hodgman, it's sort of like when, before I went into that Spanish language immersion program, I knew I was prepared because I knew what a quesadilla was. Well, and what do you do, sir, that keeps you so busy that you can't supplement whatever immersive home language experiment with independent study?

I just like life. I don't know. I just take care of my kid. My wife's pregnant. She's got another one on the way, and we're also doing home renovations. Well, all the more reason that you should settle on some system of bilingually instructing your kids, right? Sorry, I just want to interrupt for a second.

We've been married for six years, Matt. Such as this year. Oh my goodness. Matt, you are burned. Let me go back. How do you say? Okay. Excuse me, excuse me.

But at the moment, it's a busy time. Excuse me, excuse me, sir. It is also busy time. Excuse me. Excuse me, sir. It is also busy here in the courtroom. I will have order. E, how would you say you are burned in Vietnamese, please? You mean in what way? Like burn up energy? Or you mean like burn fire?

Burned by fire. Burned by the fire of your truth. you mean like burn fire burned by fire burned by the fire of your truth let's do literally you are burned by fire um okay um is that right did i get that correct no no okay An bèi cháy. An bèi cháy. Cháy. Cháy. It's a cháy. Cháy.

Cháy. Cháy. Yes. An bèi cháy. Yes. An bèi cháy. Yeah. Is that okay?

Close enough? Yeah. It's good. It's good. All right. I appreciate that. I have no problem receiving instruction from a teacher. Matt. An bèi cháy. I appreciate that. I have no problem receiving instruction from a teacher. Matt, I got you again.

Yeah. What is the problem with Matthew's immersion suggestion? Well, the problem is... Let's say, for example, I were to rule in his favor, and I was to say, Tuesdays and Thursdays at home are Vietnamese-only days. Would that work, or would that not work? We can try. We have tried before, and the problem was that we probably tried for five minutes and I was like talking to myself

because he just doing something else and just walked away from me and I'm like uh excuse me I'm talking to you and he he just I don't know it's just really weird I couldn't have any conversation out of him he cannot respond to to me. He didn't understand me. He got really frustrated with it. And then we just pretty much gave up. And so who gave up, though? Was it he or you who gave up? Well, he gave up first because he walked away from me.

Okay. Come on. Yeah. Maybe on the computer reading some weird stuff. I don't know. Was he reading stuff in English? He has his hobby reading whatever funny on the computer. And then I'll be sitting there talking to him,

but he did not respond to me or didn't listen to me. Or didn't even try. So I'm like, come on. I think he's maybe using one specific instance, but... But there is a precedent. So there is a precedent that the immersion system has been tried and did not stick, Matt. So what possible reason would I institute doing this again?

I think for one thing, I'll be like, okay, you have to try this, but you have to start slow because, because me and, me and Wynne, we're not, you know, that great yet. And she'll be like, fine, I'll try the immersion. She'll just go and just go like full on. And I'm just like, okay, well, you gotta, you gotta lead me through it a little bit. Do you understand the English word immersion? That's, that's what it is. That what immersion is but i feel like she purposely just tries to go super fast and confuse me just to just to prove me wrong but you you lived in vietnam is that not so sir this is true is this may i may i presume that this is where you and your wife met uh yeah okay and and and how long were you there for?

Two years. Did you discover that that was a nation of slow talkers? Was that the classic Vietnamese drawl? It's a funny place where if you have someone that knows any English, they will only speak English to you just because they get so little practice at it. Anywhere I go, people are just dying to use English with me. Oh, I see. So even living in Vietnam isn't really a pure immersion because people just will try to speak English with you. I mean, obviously going to like shopping or if you need to order something at the restaurant or something.

And also, E was with me a lot of the time. She took over a lot of those duties. So you basically never spoke Vietnamese in Vietnam either? No, I definitely tried to. It's always been tough for me to get people to speak Vietnamese to me.

What were you both doing there when you met? When we first met? I was just vacationing. Do you know the English word met? I don't think we need to say first met. That's what I'm talking about. When you met, what were you both doing over there?

Uh, vacationing. And, uh, I was, uh, staying at her, her mom rents a room in their house.

Oh my goodness. And, and E were you living in the house at that time? Yeah. Okay. And E, were you living in the house at that time? Yeah. Okay. And a romance blossomed? Yes. An illicit romance with the boarder? Mm-hmm.

Whoa, the lodger, fantastic. And then you fell in love, and then you got married there, or where? There. Yeah, there. You were married there and then you stole her from her family to take her to, I believe you were somewhere in Canada? That's correct, yeah. Apparently the only place where people listen to this podcast. They actually pipe it into local branches of the Canadian House of Pizza and Garbage these days. And so you're in the Toronto area as well.

And is there a large Vietnamese speaking population in Toronto? Yeah. Yes. Yes, there is. Right. Okay. Okay. I think I know everything I need to in order to make my decision.

But I will give you both a chance to make one final argument. My stipulation is that you may only make your final arguments, your closing arguments in Vietnamese. Chuyện này có thể là một cơ hội để có một câu chuyện cuối cùng. Tôi đề nghị là các bạn chỉ có thể làm những câu chuyện cuối cùng trong tiếng Việt. That sounded very persuasive to me. And the answer is it's down the hall. Matt, please make your closing argument in Vietnamese. I want to speak Vietnamese and study. and moon uh 19 of 8 and come moon study what het roy i'm done oh may i presume that het roy means i'm out it means i'm done i'm finished all right het roy uh well het Roy to both of you. I shall go into my chambers now and

enjoy several delicious banh mi sandwiches, and I'll be back in a moment to render my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Matthew, I'm not going to lie to you. Sounds like you're in a tough spot.

It's true. I don't feel like this went any better for me i i gotta say you know for a guy that's arguing that his entire home life should be conducted in a language he doesn't understand you somehow managed to come off as selfish e how are you feeling about about the so far? I'm actually pretty happy. I don't know. Because, well, first of all, he didn't tell me when he signed up for this. And I was like, oh, come on. You must be kidding me.

So I decided to go on the podcast just to show him that I wasn't wrong. I try and it's your problem. So now we have the third party to look at it. Matt, do you feel like you've got a shot here? Maybe he'll come back with some sort of a compromise. But I'm willing to do whatever uh whatever it needs whatever whatever the judge follow up very well please rise as judge john hodgman re-enters the courtroom well first of all let me say that i admire you very much for um raising for raising your child bilingually. It is obviously a way to connect her and your coming child

to a big part of their culture and background. I think it is also a gift to a child to learn a second language because for a long time we never taught children second languages until they were in middle school, which is what happened with me. But in fact, children's brains are built to absorb and learn language at an extraordinary rate when they are quite young. And I unfortunately did not give my children that gift. fortunately did not give my children that gift. And as such, they are, they are now no longer able to work as executives in China, as, as I've been filling out those applications that they keep getting rejected, unfortunately. So I think that it's a it's a remarkable gift to give your child

that second language, particularly in Toronto, where I think there's a pretty large Vietnamese-speaking community, right? It's pretty large. All right, thank you. 80,000, I think. Okay. You know what? Sucking up will get you nowhere. I also will say that it seems as though Wynne is in very good hands

because she is so young, she will absorb this language so long as it is spoken to her consistently and I'm sure you're doing a great job in that regard and even if she doesn't want to speak it as much because you know after all there is also a fairly large English speaking population in Toronto I would imagine And maybe that's slightly out numbers of Vietnamese speaking population. I think that if you keep it up, I would imagine that she would absorb a great deal of it and would always have that to build on should she decide to engage with it a little bit more actively in the future. But I do think that the issue here is, I think,

as you've raised, a consistent application of the program. Vietnamese speaking in the house consistently and actively and insisting of it from her and indeed all parties. And you have noticed a point where that consistency has broken down because your daughter is saying, I don't want to speak Vietnamese. Daddy doesn't have to. And, and you are just smiling there,

grinning in English saying that is right, honey. Matt, I will, I will, I think we can all stipulate that you are lazy and selfish. There is no question that you could find time in your busy Canadian life to take some Vietnamese study that does not involve making your wife do more work.

There are all sorts of language courses and tapes and books and classes that you could take that would increase your proficiency than allow you to contribute more in the home. So you may be surprised to learn that I am finding in your favor. Oh, how about that? Sounds good. I don't remember how to say you are burned, but in this case, we are all burned by that incredible ruling coming out of nowhere. In the sense that you could supplement language training in your household by doing a little bit of work yourself if you wanted. But I don't disagree with you on the point that immersion is not only an effective way to learn language. It is really the best way, to the best of my knowledge, that little kids pick up languages.

That's what their brains are designed to do. And in that sense, you're absolutely right, that immersion within the household is best for your daughter and a way for you to build on the very basic Vietnamese that you clearly already have, though. Based on your closing arguments, you have a long way to go. Indeed. But here is what I'm going to say.

You may, I rule in your favor, but you may be getting what you wish for, which is always the worst thing, which is true immersion. You understand what I'm saying? Yes. You, he will decide which days or which portions of time are going to be vietnamese only time and by vietnamese only i mean speaking in vietnamese reading in vietnamese watching in vietnamese there shall be no other language but vietnamese during these periods of time. And there is no starting slow. Immersion means you jump into it and you are immersed in the language as it is spoken. It is a sink or swim reflex that the brain reacts to when you are going to another country

and you must learn the language in order to function. And that means that while in Vietnam, they may be very happy to indulge your lazy Canadian bones, sir, in your household, there will be no such luxury offered. I will allow you to negotiate in good faith what these periods of time should and can be realistically. In other words, I would not necessarily suggest that you go Vietnamese language only in your household three out of seven days a week. You may start reasonably slow by saying two evenings a week or three evenings a week or a certain period of time. That is for, and by negotiate in good faith, I mean that is for E to decide. To negotiate with herself in good faith.

I'm okay with that. I don't care. I'm telling you what's happening. So this means you should stock up on Vietnamese language DVDs. You should find the Vietnamese language television channel on your cable network if there is one. You should get some Vietnamese books and comic books around and you should be ready to jump in and show to your daughter that in life, not in life, white dudes who speak English from Canada don't always get whatever they want.

That sometimes they have to speak another language too. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. Het Roy. Please rise as Judge Johnodgman exits the courtroom e that's a split decision but an interesting one how are you feeling right now i don't have any problem with that but um i hope he would uh do what i asked him if i asked for help he better understand do you have any plans to immerse him in any particular

favorite Vietnamese television programs or perhaps Vietnamese popular music? Well, he doesn't like Vietnamese music. He thinks it sucks. It's like the worst pop music from the West but on steroids

i agree with him but still there are other kind of vietnamese music like you know uh folk music and whatever he could listen to but he never tried um also there is a vietnamese show and he turned it on for me he doesn't't watch it. He walked away. He goes somewhere else. So we'll see. Now you have the power to averse him. Matt, you know that you got burned, right? I won and I got burned. Yeah, but it's okay. Are you ready for this? Can you handle it? Yeah. I mean, it's kind of what I wanted.

So, yeah, I mean, I know it's going to be tough, but I think it will be better in the end, and I'll be much happier when I can speak quite a bit more. So, yeah, it's all good. Matthew, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you for having us. Judge Hodgman, I wish that I could speak even a single... Yes?

I'm sorry. I was just slurping up some delicious beef pho soup. Oh, did you get fatty tendon? My favorite is fatty tendon. I did. And fatty tendon dished up some delicious beef pho soup. I love that. I love Fatty Tendon.

He's a great guy. I don't mean to interrupt you, but we do have some cases on the docket to clear out here. But may I just say, I loved how Matt bragged about knowing what a banh mi sandwich was. Yes. He lived in Vietnam, and he's married to a Vietnamese woman. That's the least he should know. What a banh mi sandwich is. Here's something from Jesse, J-E-S-S-I.

By the way, I met a woman named Jesse, J-E-S-S-E, and it really bothered me. Way out of scale with how much it should have bothered me. I was like, that's the boy spelling. Now people are going to, I think I thought that her using the boy spelling made me a girl. Wait, which are you again? A girl or a boy? My boyfriend Jeff and I routinely attend concerts together. I will go to any show he asks me to, regardless of whether I like the music.

We recently went to see the Brian Jonestown Massacre, a band whose music I do not care for. I wanted to get one of their t-shirts solely because I like the design. Jeff said if I got the shirt, I would be a poser because I don't care for their music. I say I should be able to wear whatever

shirt strike my fancy, whether or not I endorse the product behind them. I would ask your honor to settle this dispute once and for all yeah boyfriends stop being dumb boyfriends you stop being boyfriends for once and just appreciate that if the girl you're taking to see this band wants to wear that t-shirt that's kind of hot and great that she wants to be at least associated with the thing that you like. Oh, boy.

Stop it, boyfriends. Let her wear the T-shirt. Whatever T-shirt she wants to wear, she wears. Would you consider her a poser if she stole one of your T-shirts and started wearing that around? You don't actually like iron-on transfers of elf. No, shut up, boyfriend. A girlfriend taking your T-shirt is the sexiest thing that can ever happen. So let her buy whatever t-shirt she wants.

Jesse, I've got to say something to you. The first time we spoke, when I was doing press for the areas of my expertise... Many years ago. Many, many, I think it was something like 75 years ago, I was told by my publisher's publicist Many years ago. Many, many, I think it was something like 75 years ago. I was told by my publisher's publicist that I would be speaking to Jesse Thorne, who had a radio show. And I now learned that only some of that was true.

Well, you did have a public, you had a terrestrial public radio show that was heard only called, then called The Sound of Young America. Now has matured into Bullseye. But it was called The Sound of Young America at the time, and it was only on in Hattiesburg, Mississippi and Walla Walla, Washington. Is that correct? Terrestrial? Also on in the Monterey Bay area on KZSC in Santa Cruz. Very good. And so I was excited to speak to this national public radio show. And I was told that I would be speaking to Jesse Thorne.

And it was spelled, you should know, I thought that you were a girl. And because it was spelled the girl way, which is also the boy way, by the way. There are lots of Jesses that are spelled Jesse that way. No, they're girls. That's not true. I'm a Jesse expert or Jespert. In any case, as you know, you have one of the most mellifluous voices in the world, a voice born for radio and a very deep voice. And yet, when I finally got on the phone with you, I was very confused indeed.

You thought you were facing a sort of Mavis Staples, Nina Simone type situation? What kind of woman would have a voice so husky and yet so radio-licious? And I could not put together a picture of you in my mind for many years, even after I learned that you were a guy because you were also a much younger dude than I expected. I thought this is either an extremely unusually voiced woman in a great way or this is a

65-year-old ailing broadcaster who's trying to get in touch with the sound of young America. I used to get a lot of angry emails from people when this show was called The Sound of Young uh with a sort of how dare you sir tone to them because people believe me to be at the very least in my mid to

late 40s um and probably 58 or something like that i would email them back and say oh i'm 23 oh i'm 26 it really upset people. I certainly could not. It was hard for me to put a picture in my mind. And I certainly did not picture what you are, which is a very handsome, seven foot tall, baby face doll in a three piece tweed suit or or jog purse, depending on the day. Well, it depends if I'm, if I have to trek through high grass.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. So, and I couldn't be more pleased with who you are, Jesse, and how we've gotten to know each other over those years. Indeed,

since then, I have done press for the areas of my expertise. And then for the second book of Complete World Knowledge that I wrote called More Information Than You Require and as you know the last book of Final World Knowledge has just come out in paperback it is called That Is All and look at what has happened over those ensuing years

now we are friends, we are colleagues we inhabit a courtroom together and it is my pleasure to, in some degrees, close the chapter of Complete World Knowledge and then open the chapter that comes of Judge John Hodgman in my professional life. That is, presuming that the world does not end in fire, famine, and the blood wave on December 21st, as I predicted in my book, That Is All. I am saying all of this about That Is All because indeed it has just come out in paperback. I don't mean to be a buzz marketer about this sort of thing, but I'm going to entreat every listener of this thing.

This is a major part of my life's work. It is a project that I love, and That Is All I love, I think, better than all three of the books. And also that's come out is this audio book, which I cannot believe I was so lucky enough to be a part of, even though I was there every day making it happen with my voice machine. The audio book we have version is essentially a 12-hour comedy record of the entire book with guest appearances from Jonathan Colton, of course, John Roderick, naturally, but also John Hamm. There are lots of Johns. Rachel Maddow is back. Dick Cavett is back. Stephen Fry tuned in, or rather, Skyped in from the UK in order to contribute something.

Brooke Shields, Paul F. Tompkins, many friends of the Maximum Fun world, Wyatt Snack, and many friends of mine, people that I feel are too lucky to even call friends. So, you know,

look, it's available for download only. I'm not ordering you from the bench to buy it because that would be unethical, but I will climb down and hold you by the throat until you at least check it out. I say do it. That's what I say. And there's even a nice there's even a nice three volume box set of all three of the books coming out, right? If you only have partial complete world knowledge, you can now get complete complete world knowledge in a handy Ragnarok box that also serves as a survival tool if you want to give someone a nasty paper cut. Would you say that this was all just in time for the holidays? I'd say it's a little early for the holidays.

early for the holidays? I'm talking about your earlier holidays. Your Halloween, your harvest festival at your local elementary school. Best in time for Columbus Day. I want to mention that October 15th is MaxFunDay.

Don't you forget it. Mark it in your calendars. You're going to have special stuff going on all day and it is a special hyper-compressed one-day pledge drive at MaximumFun.org. If you're not already a donor to Maximum Fun,

we're going to make it worth your while to become one. It's going to be a really spectacular blowout, big blast event, all on one day, October 15th. So mark your calendar. Get ready to make the world a better place by supporting this show and all of the shows at MaximumFun.org. October 15th. Hashtag MaxFunDay. I think we both said plenty. Yeah. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. John Hodgman Podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org.

Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at GoSuperEgo.com. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum

at forum.maximumfund.org and our Facebook group at facebook.com slash Judge John Hodgman. We'll see you online and next time right here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.