Judge John Hodgman - To the Victor Goes the Spoiled

Episode Date: April 10, 2013

With Expert Witness Alton Brown! Natalie brings the case against her husband Hugo. She wants to throw food away when she decides it's spoiled or too old. Hugo hates waste, and is aghast that Natalie throws away moldy but "perfectly usable" items. Who is right? Who is wrong?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, to the victor goes the spoiled. Natalie brings the case against her husband, Hugo. She wants to throw food away when she decides it's spoiled or too old. Hugo hates waste and is aghast that Natalie throws away moldy but otherwise, quote, perfectly usable, unquote, items. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Me, me, me. Floridian house of food that is garbage. A place of bad smells and dispute over food.

Maison Florienne de la Nuitre Avarie. Nathalie et Hugo, son épouse combattant, et la différence entre un collectionneur et un hoarder, un réfrigérateur ou une poubelle, ou une poubelle, da-da-da. Jessie, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?

I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he eats only fungus, specifically corn smut or huitlacoche? Okay. Sure. Judge Hodgman? Hell, if Jesse coming in with a sweet wheat lacoche reference i used to live right next door to a great wheat lacoche restaurant i've had some corn smut before

and it's good you could also buy chapines which is uh deep fried grasshoppers uh well no i haven't had i've had fried crickets and i've had fried mealworms, but not the grasshoppers. And I know that those are supposed to be a delicacy, but wait, wait a minute. We got a lot of food to talk here. Before we go any further for an immediate summary judgment in your favor. Can you tell me what piece of culture I was referencing when I entered the court, when I entered the courtroom? Hugo. I can't even tell you what that word was that you just said.

I have no idea. It was your name in French. Hugo. The main nom de Hugo. Natalie? I have no idea. That was, in fact, the theme of the great chain

of Canadian pizza restaurants, Canadian House of Pizza and Garbage, or CHOPAG, which longtime listeners will remember from verdict number 38, the pizza pauper. But, of course, I changed the words to reflect your situation. You live in Florida.

You own or rent a home or condominium or apartment. Is that correct? Wow. You're psychic. Yes. I have, I have, I have gifts.

I'm talented. Let's just say that in which the food is sometimes garbage. Is that not also so? That is true, sir. All right. Now, before we talk. It is all in the eye of the beholder. I can feel the pain in the breast of our expert witness for Jesse and I to be talking about

wheat lakote and fried grasshoppers and for him to have to remain silent. So he shall remain silent so he shall remain silent no longer please welcome our expert witness uh uh food safety expert and general expert on food and uh the processes thereof mr alton brown oh thank goodness i i thought the thing was going to kill me you've had wheat luitlacoche, right? Oh, I've had me some corn scum, yeah, absolutely. It's the truffle of Mexico, you know, basically. And do you like it or do you not like it? I do. I do like me some huitlacoche.

I do. I don't like the canned huitlacoche very much, but I like the fresh huitlacoche. And now, is there such a thing, and this goes exactly to the point we're going to discuss with Hugo and Natalie, is there such a thing as fresh wheat lakoche? Does it not require essentially some going rotten? Or is it a fresh fungus that grows on the corn?

It is a fresh fungus. It doesn't have to ferment or rot or go through any other form of decomposition in order to be edible, although it certainly can and is often dried to some degree. composition in order to be edible, although it certainly can and is often dried to some degree. I should have said simply that I prefer to be unprocessed in a can. I should have said that. Right. So it's a fresh fungus on old corn or even fresh? No, no, no. It typically only grows on corn that's actually on the stalk. I've never seen wheat locoche grow on corn that's down or corn that's rotting. It likes to attach itself to something healthy and growing. So in other words, something that looks and smells and tastes to certain palates like garbage may in fact be a fresh and wholesome food.

I see where you're going with this, and I'm going to open the door and say yes. All right. So, Hugo, even before you even said a word, and that may be for the best in this podcast, already testimony has been given in your favor. The subject of dispute is that, Hugo, you hold on to food. Yes, sir. Past a point where your spouse, Natalie, feels is preferable. And Natalie, you would say that Hugo holds on to food to the point that it is disgusting

and you throw it away. Does that sum it up? Hugo, go first. Yeah, yeah. I think that sums it up quite nicely. Natalie, could we have an exact give us a definition or an example of a particular

food over which you have fought. I'd like to get some conditions here because there's a lot of gray area here, you know? Right. I agree. And I think that's really what it comes down to. We're talking about food relativity here. What area of the food? Actually, you go, we'll decide that. We'll decide that. So the question is, what area of the food has to be gray before you throw it out? So the question is, what area of the food has to be gray before you throw it out? Very insightful question, and it depends on the kind of food, I must say. But it basically comes down to if the food is not a murder weapon, then it's okay.

You mean like a frozen leg of lamb? I mean like a— That's one of my favorite stories judge hodgman lamb to the slaughter by roll the slaughter rolled all yeah he she fed it to the cops that he worked with yeah yeah because the cops were always coming around just to check to see if anyone was murdered that day and instead she served them a delicious leg of lamb delicious leg of of lamb. I'm curious then you go, you, you define palatable by whether or not it can kill somebody. And if it can kill somebody, it is palatable. Is that what you're saying? Oh, no, no, no, no. Well, that is what you just said. You said, unless it's a murder weapon or could be used as a murder weapon, it's okay. So rotten, putrid food, things that, uh, as long as it doesn't have something actually hatching on it,

like lice or maggots, how deep can the mold get before you go to sides it's no good anymore? Well, I draw from my experience, my long experience of dealing with food before it gets to that point. So some of it is a gray area but basically as long as it doesn't end up harming me then it's okay and everybody else can just sort of deal with it what is your long experience in dealing with food past its prime oh man um have you worked in the kitchen let me ask you this question yes you work in kitchens or do you dumpster dive? Those are my questions. I dream of dumpster diving. No, I'm kidding.

I've seen it on the TV. And I said, look, Natalie, it's me. But I've never gone to that extreme. But I understand where they're coming from. And that's, I think, a really good analogy to the way that I approach food. I still want it to taste very good. I want it to be a good experience. But when there's food that's going to go to taste very good. I want it to be a good experience. But when there's food that's going to go to waste, my heartstrings start to pull and I figure like I'm doing

something good by not letting it go to waste. Natalie, specific question. Give me a specific example of a time or a foodstuff rather that you wanted to throw away that Hugo did not want to throw away. Well, I don't know if it's too early to bring up the evidence that I provided. It's never too early. Okay, well. Specificity is the soul of narrative. Please bring up the evidence. Okay, the evidence is that of a moldy cheese Danish

that he left in his car over a week prior that had been growing some unique mold in a variety of spots. I said that that's disgusting and that it needs to be thrown away. Plus, it's just a cheese danish. It really doesn't have any nutritional value. And he refused, and he did what's called a cleanup session in which he picked up all of the moldy spots and then continued to eat it as if it was a normal cheese danish.

You use that term cleanup session as though it comes up a lot in your house. Like that is a standard lingo. Yeah. Time to cut off the mold of this piece of bread or this bagel or whatever. Yes. That's one of my favorite sayings. How often a week are you doing a cleanup session on some food out of your refrigerator or icebox? I would say probably once every month or once every quarter.

No, no, no, no, no. I will have honor. In all truthfulness, Your Honor, the way that I approach it is that I take care of it. And if she doesn't notice it, then maybe the number would be a little bit more inflated. But she doesn't see it that often. And you are telling the truth? He's lying. I am telling the truth.

I am. Before le Dieu ou quoi d'autre? Natalie, I understand you're accusing him of lying. What would be your estimate? Yeah. Well, what happens is... No, I don't want to hear what happens is. Stop. You call him a liar.

Okay, fine. What is the number of times... Six times a month. Six times a month more than once a week? At least, yes. I would like to have more actual description of some of these occurrences. That was a very, very good explanation

of a kind of an automobile-bound Danish situation. But bring it back to home. Because, I mean, the way I look at it, was that in his car? Yes. Okay, that's none of your business. So let's go, now granted, he is definitely, I've already ascertained through dealing with a lot of anthropologists and food-related issues that Hugo is a highly functioning sociopath.

I want to get that behind us because he is. So ordered. Because I've read the brief on this case. I've read the brief on this case, the whole thing about in restaurants waiting for people to finish and saying, are you going to eat that? That's the operation of a highly functioning sociopath. It's clear that the social rules of societal eating don't really matter to him. But that's his business. It's his part.

Now, wait a minute. Alton, let me interrupt for a moment. Yeah. You've read the brief on this case, right? I have. But our listeners have not. And apparently I haven't either. Can you explain what you're referring to?

Or Hugo, can you explain what you're referring to? Or Hugo, can you explain? Well, there were references, if I am not mistaken, to the fact that this moves outside of the home to restaurant environments where apparently Hugo will either order something very small or not order at all and simply wait for other people to finish their food. Then say, are you going to finish that and then take their food from them. Is that true? Or are you a liar? Can I plead the fifth? No, I'm joking. I think that used to be, it is true. It has, it has stopped. I used to do that. I used to strategize to do exactly that. I do admit that. Are you on medication right now? No, I'm clear-minded. Do you have any kind of antidepressants or some other schizophrenic medicines? I just want to know. Well, yeah, antipsychotics. I didn't want to say that because people will go off the hook sometimes when you say that.

Well, I just think we should establish that because that could pretty much just shut this whole thing down. I was just hoping I could buy some. I've got a website. I want to get back to the six time a month business. Now we'll, we'll deal with your, your sociopathic tendencies later. Let's, let's deal with what goes on in the home that you share with, with Natalie. I'd like to get some idea of just, you know, some foods that you think it's okay to do cleanups on and kind of the level of cleanup that you consider acceptable. And then I'd also like to know how disgusting that might be for your wife who I'm taking would gag on a lot of the things that you seem to enjoy. Sure.

I'll give you a perfect example. We have a mango tree and an avocado tree in our backyard. And I love them. I value those plants more than a lot of things. And I will take them after they fall off on the ground. And, you know, sometimes when they're really ripe and there's been a big yield, I won't be able to catch all of them. So one of them will fall and it'll be ripe and it'll split open or something along those lines. I will cut the part out that is browning. I will cut the part out that has come into contact with bugs or the ground, and I will consume said item with large smile on my face.

Are these wonderful fruits that have fallen down to the ground, what are they landing on, Hugo? What is around those trees? Describe the environment to me. The environment is a backyard with dirt patches, dirt and dog poop. I was going to say, mainly kiddie pools full of human feces. Why? Yeah.

Well, I think that it is important that we establish what it is that these foods are coming in contact with, whether chemicals from some kind of lawn chemicals are being used, whether there is a lot of animal excrement in the area certainly has a bearing on the safety of these items. Correct. And there is not any pesticides or any lawn chemicals that I can speak to. You're lying again. You're lying again because you actually pushed the dog's poop underneath the fruit trees to fertilize it naturally. So you're actually pushing all the poop under the tree. Oh my God.

Oh my God. Is this true that you are using God's own compost under these trees and then picking up the fruit from the fecal ground that you have laid and dining upon it? I must say that it is true that I do use my dog's

poop as fertilizer, but I will never be, I challenge Natalie to provide evidence that any one of the food that I've eaten has actually landed upon the excrement that our dog has put in the backyard. I really can't believe that a sane person would split hairs with me on this,

but I'm going to do it anyway. Do you live in an area where water occasionally falls from the sky in the form of precipitation, also known as rain? Yeah, I've heard of that. Does that happen where you live? I don't know where you live. I assume that you probably live in California based on your mango and avocado availability. Would that be accurate? Florida, I believe.

Florida, I'm sorry. Florida. It rains pretty gosh darn hard down in Florida, does it not? Florida, I believe. Florida, I'm sorry, Florida. So it rains pretty gosh darn hard down in Florida, does it not? Yes, it does. So it is possible, just work with me here, it is possible during a precipitative action

or event that some of the fecal matter from your dogs that you've shoved so industriously under the tree could spread out in a form that might be hard to detect with the naked eye. Yes. Come on, answer me, you turd. You don't tell me.

All right. All right. Alton Brown, if you'd please walk around the avocado tree outside for a moment and calm down, because right now you have your hand around the throat of the witness. I'm going to back away. I'm going to go have a tea. I can still breathe. I'm good. Stand by for a moment because Bailiff Jesse and I are going to have to talk about some important

financial matters pertaining to this court. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft.

And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs. They're made in, made in. The Rohan duck. Made in, made in. Riders of Rohan, duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop?

You got it. Made in, made in. Made in has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years. They make the stuff that chefs need. Their carbon steel cookware is the best of cast iron, the best of stainless clad. It gets super hot. It's rugged enough for grills or an open flame. One of the most useful pans you can own. And like we said, good enough for real professional chefs, the best professional chefs. Oh, so I have to go all the way down to the restaurant district in restaurant town?

Just buy it online. This is professional grade cookware that is available online directly to you, the consumer, at a very reasonable price. Yeah. If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in made in save up to 25 this memorial day from the 18th until the 27th visit made in cookware dot com that's m-a-d-e-i-n cookware dot com the judge john hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel.

Did you know that learning, the experience of learning, causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world and you get to hear the sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not

a rigid, weird, hyperacademic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. Expert witness Alton Brown. Welcome back to the court.

Did you get some fresh air? I'm here. I'm here. I'm better. I was a little upset. I was out of line. Welcome back to the court. Did you get some fresh air? I'm here. I'm here. I'm, I'm, I'm better. I was a little upset. I was out of line.

I apologize to all. No, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, Mangos. And actually, it's the mangoes that concern me a little bit more than the avocados. Avocados don't actually fully ripen until they are removed from the tree. So I don't have a problem with picking up an avocado, which has a pretty sturdy exterior to it and could thoroughly be washed. But I'm already petrified at what he does on the outside of the house. I've been disgusted by what he does in his car, but I still haven't heard about what hideous crimes he's committed inside the domestic dwelling itself. Well, Natalie, you've spoken in your brief about a habit of scraping the plates clean. Can you explain what that is? Basically, he – well, that annoyance of surrounding restaurant goers,

and he will lick it clean, lick the inside of containers, plates, lick my plate as well, basically, so that there's not much kernel. Wait, let me break in for a second. Yeah. You're saying he licks the plates in the restaurant? Yes. Okay. It's like I took a homeless guy I found out to dinner.

Are you describing your husband or are you describing my terrier, Coco? They're probably very similar. Did they both grow up on the streets of Tijuana? I know my dog did. No, he's from Puerto Rico. The question that I have is at home, does he also scrape slash lick the plates and then what happens?

Yes, then he'll try to either put them back in the cabinet as if they weren't used. I will have to go overruled. Overruled. You're already a proven liar and turd eater. You be quiet for a moment while your wife speaks. I'm calling the police. I just want you to know time here in the Floridian house of food that is garbage.

But I really need a straight answer that is very clear. When your husband is eating food and he scrapes the plate clean, he puts it back into the cupboard? Yes. Routinely or, I mean, not that it matters, but is this a routine or once or twice? No, occasionally. Okay. And does he put plates back in the cupboard after he has licked the plates clean? I can assume so, but I can't verify with my own eyes that I've seen that.

Have you ever taken a plate out of the cupboard to find food residue on it because your husband has put a used plate back into the cupboard? Yes, with like finger streaks. Yes, and food residue. Finger streaks and food residue. Hugo, you denied this? Do you continue to deny it? Yes or no? Vehemently, I deny this.

I think that she has overplayed her hand. She's calling me a liar. And at this point, she's showing her true colors. Those other things I'll address later that she charged me with, but that is not true. I do not lick the plate as a dishwasher and put it back in the cupboard. That is absolutely categorically false. Wow. Well, Natalie, at this point, it wouldn't surprise us.

I know. I know, and i understand that i know my track record you have a lot you have a lot of nerve sir because you're standing there saying my wife must prove that these mangoes fell into dog poop and that's the standard of proof you ask for her and yet you are already a proven weirdo and turdy. Well played, Judge. Well played. I don't understand.

You're accusing her of lying outright about your behavior. Is that correct? You have never done that. Remember, you are under fake internet oath. Have you ever cleaned off a plate and put it back into the cupboard without washing it with soap and water? Yes, I've washed it with water or with a paper towel and then put it back in there. A wet paper towel or a dry paper towel.

No, you wouldn't waste a paper towel. That's false. Excuse me, madam, please. Sorry. I'm speaking to turdier now so when i'm not busy eating turds i do do wash the dishes i wash the dishes and then i'll put them back in the cupboard i would say equal 50 50 with her if not slightly more i've never licked a a dish to as a washing mechanism.

I don't know where that comes from, but I will admit that I do lick plates out in the open at times and definitely with no reservations in my household. All right. Well, we'll just stipulate that that's gross, but not germane to this issue. It might be tomean to this issue, however. Nice. Stab me. Stab me. Expert witness Alton Brown.

I'm here. We have three issues before us. We got a lot more than that, but I get your point. I know. I have isolated three issues that I would like your expert opinion on, I have isolated three issues that I would like your expert opinion on. But before I get your final ruling on those issues from a scientific and food hygiene issue, or perspective about this six times a month business of saying that you would intervene with food in this so-called clean-up mode there in the house. We've gotten so sidetracked by this other shocking behavior that we've wandered away from what was really

tantamount to the case, which was what is it that he is doing to food where he expects to continue to consume something that is clearly spoiled or so past its prime as to be considered by most people to be spoiled. I would still like to hear something. All we've heard about is some turd-coated mangoes, and that's in the yard. Okay, that's in the yard, and a spotty Danish in the car. I want to hear just a little bit more evidence about what this guy's actually doing to food that is in the refrigerator or food that has been prepared domestically for consumption. Natalie, you're bringing these accusations. Please lay out your case. What he does to, mostly he focuses on produce. He won't throw out produce. He will pick off all of

the, he will do his cleanup to the fruit. And even if there is maybe a portion of one grape left, he will eat that portion and throw the rest away if it's moldy. So he does that on a daily basis. I'll throw out the food and put it in the garbage. He'll take it out of the garbage, put it back in the fridge and continue this process. What kind of food do you throw away that he will put back in? I will throw away strawberries that have some mold on them, grape tomatoes that have mold on them. Mostly produce, fruits and vegetables? Yeah. Yeah. Basically. What about me?

Does he, is there, is there anything, do you, are you vegetarians? Uh, we try to be, and I intentionally don't cook meat because I'm scared he's going to not throw it out and get,

okay. So do you, does your refrigerator work? Yes, it works, but I guess I don't eat as much produce as I intend to. And so when you dispose of food without his permission, you throw it in the garbage? Yes.

And he takes it out of the garbage? Correct. Do you ever do anything else to the food? Sometimes I'll put soap on it so that he doesn't eat it. Maybe you should throw it under the mango tree. No, then he'll definitely eat it. So it sounds like one of the issues you've got is that you guys buy too much food that you don't consume in a timely manner. Yeah, I will admit that. I think that that's true. I intend, Yeah, I will admit that. I think that that's true. I intend, you know, I want us to eat healthy, so I'll have great aspirations of us eating all organic fruits and vegetables. Then when it comes down to it, I guess we really don't.

Natalie, do you do most of the shopping? Yes. at least this action with Hugo's behavior regarding the produce as him simply trying to make up for your domestic inadequacy as a shopper and inability to meal plan? Because that's something that a loving husband would do. I mean, you know, he doesn't want to waste the fact that you're apparently a grocery spin thrift. No, I completely disagree. Well, of course you disagree.

You're a woman. And I would expect that. But I mean, around my household, typically things that are purchased are consumed before they become disgusting. What you want to be able to do is simply throw away food. Yes, I enjoy throwing away moldy food.

Well, Hugo, let me ask you this. You spend a great deal of time and effort doing cleanup on food. Have you ever thought about just eating it before it becomes disgusting? Well, see, that's part of the problem and I'm glad that you brought it up. It's not a matter that I go out of my way to try to find food that's disgusting or moldy. It's just like you mentioned, there's always an abundance of food in my refrigerator, at least this is just in the house. And I always attempt to eat as much of it as possible, but I can't even get around to all the food before it gets tossed in the trash can. And let me say, just as a corollary, please, that a man must have a

code. And if the food has touched the trash can or other food in that trash can then i do not eat it if it's not in a container of some sort then i will not try to prep it or or clean it up like she says what do you i'm not do you deny that you take the food out of the garbage when she puts it in there no i do not deny that so so my code is basically that if it gets to the point where it can get me sick or I can't determine from my past experience that there's a good likelihood that I won't get sick, then I'll make my decision based on that. This is the question I got to ask. Let me ask a question here. Does taste and flavor or sensation come into this at all or will you eat it even if you have to choke it down? You'll eat it even if it tastes terrible because you just said that you'll eat it if it won't make

you sick. Do you have any other standard other than the aforementioned illness? It's both. It's both. I'll be completely honest. I'll eat some things that don't taste that good and force myself to do it just out of sheer will. And then sometimes I'll actually throw things away because they're too rancid and, and, uh, Natalie will congratulate me on those occasions. So is there a, is there a poverty? I mean, it doesn't sound like you guys are poor. Um, you, you, you, you have, um, refrigerator fulls of food yet. Is there something in your past you go and you're in your childhood that makes you believe that it's literally a sin to waste this food? Is there an emotional, ethical issue here from your past? Yes, there is. There's, I think, a philosophy that I think is particularly

here in America. We throw away, we waste, we consume, we throw away, and we never actually take the time to enjoy the things that we have. We always look for the next thing. And particularly with food, it's even worse because there's so many people that are literally dying of starvation that I feel like I can control the little bit of space around me by eating the food that Natalie so wastefully buys. And so this is, he does, he does. Now that I think of it, you know, I have a, I have a number of plates in my house that I've never actually tasted by licking them. Well, I just want to say that on one hand, Hugo is completely within the bounds of reason. It is actually very difficult to get sick off of food.

difficult to get sick off of food. A food that goes bad in the refrigerator typically tastes worse before it'll actually get bad enough to hurt you. The foods that make us sick actually taste and look fine. It's things like salmonella and E. coli that come into our homes. But when food starts to go bad, in most cases, it's just a matter of taste. Very rarely will these foods make you sick. So I don't think that Hugo is endangering himself. I just want to be clear on that. Not even with regard to the mangoes from the backyard? Well, out there, that disturbs me. Okay, that disturbs me.

I'm talking about once it comes into the house. Food, I'll even be honest. I like chicken to be just a little on the gamey side. I'll let my chicken sit in the refrigerator where I know it's controlled, but I'll let it get a little age on it, which is something that used to be very common in Europe was to hang fowl and let it get a little on the stinky side. I don't like either the flavors, aromas, or feel of mold, but I will cut mold off of cheese and I will scoop mold off of yogurt because those are foods that tend to get surface mold that doesn't penetrate.

The bigger concern is that you go doesn't know the lines. You could become seriously ill from those outdoor culinary adventures of yours. Out in that world, that's a different world out there. What's going on in your refrigerator is basically just decay. that's a different world out there. What's going on in your refrigerator is basically just decay. And if you can bear to choke it down or feel you must choke it down, then in most cases, none of it's going to kill you. It's going to be disgusting. And I'm sorry that you feel you have to do it. And I hope you guys can work out your shopping so that you don't. But truth is, you're probably not going to harm yourself. And you certainly shouldn't,

of course, be making anybody else do that. But you've got some hygiene issues that are bigger concerns. I mean, I'm not coming to eat at your house. I am not coming to eat at your house because I don't know what you've done with a plate. And, you know, you're willing to play pretty wild with the rules. You stated in one situation when the judge asked you directly if you would get something out of the trash that Natalie put there. You said you would. That shows that there's something else going on here. And I think it's kind of – you got some passive aggression issues. And I still think maybe borderline sociopath, especially with the restaurant stuff.

Are you talking about Hugo or Natalie here? Because I'm still reflecting on the fact – No, no, no. She's just a spin-off. A bad chopper. No, no, no, no, no. Because she's just a bad chopper no no no no because she's putting soap on food to prevent him from taking out of the garbage to eat it and also if i read in the brief did you do you also put bleach on food to keep him from eating it yes and do you ever consume soapy or bleachy food hugo no no i i've never done that but you

realize you're married you realize you're married to a human being and not a dog, right? Yes, we've been happily married for five years. All right. So I think I've heard everything I need to go into my chambers to do my thinking over and chew over the mold of this case. Before I go, Natalie, what would you like me, if I were to find in your favor, what would you like me to order? I would like some type of control over being able to throw food away. I know that you would like that, but what would you like me to order specifically? I would like you to order that I have the authority to throw food away once I deem it unsanitary or unsafe to eat.

All right. And Hugo? I think you better change that to unpalatable because if you go by safe to eat, you're not going to get what you want. Aesthetically unappealing to eat because I basically, like you guys said, none of you guys want to come over to our house to eat. I want to have friends over, you know, and I don't want my fridge to look like it's full of dumpster dive treasures. I want people to come over and see nice, fresh items and, and be able to enjoy a meal with clean plates and

wholesome food. So. Natalie, nobody's coming, Natalie. I know. Nobody's coming. So Natalie, nobody's coming, Natalie. I know. Nobody's coming. Nobody's coming. Now, wait a minute. Where in Florida are you? We're in Fort Lauderdale. Oh, no, I'm definitely not.

I'm not. No, I'm not coming. I'm not even going to Fort Lauderdale now. Let me ask you a question before I go into Chambers. You do most of the shopping, Natalie. Is that correct? Yes. You buy a lot of organic produce that then starts to rot in your refrigerator because you don't eat it fast enough. Is that correct? Yes. You buy a lot of organic produce that then starts to rot in your refrigerator because you don't eat it fast enough.

Is that correct? I guess I buy too much at one time. Is that because you're eating other food instead? No. Do you buy an aspirational box of washed mesclun salad? Yes. You know, organic, biodynamic, washed mess, and salad that goes into your fridge. You never look at it again until it's half rotted because you're eating Fritos or whatever. Bingo. Bingo.

And then it's up to Hugo to pull out the couple of leaves of baby romaine and arugula in there that will still be good to eat no i put fritos on the salad i do eat the salad i just after wait a minute did you say you put fritos on the salad sometimes i find in your favor this this is a jerk no i'll go i'll go into i'll go into chambers for a moment and then i'll come back and Alton and I will get a real ruling. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Hugo, have you gone hungry in your life? No. I think the only psychological thing that I can sort of think of is that my grandfather in Puerto Rico was undernourished, malnourished, and he was four foot nine.

He's a Native American. And then my father was five foot five or five foot six. And then me and my brothers are both six foot two. The progression in a picture and a family photo is pretty stark, and it has to do with actual poverty in my family history. Do you think it's possible that if you and Natalie have children, you start feeding them this poop fruit, they're going to end up five foot two? I don't think so. But I didn't even get a chance to defend myself. With the poop fruit, I do wash the poop fruit. That doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. But what about cow manure and fertilizer and preservatives and hormones and all these other things in our food supply? Okay, okay. This is my segment of the show.

Natalie, why do you persist in torturing your husband in this way? There is a solution to your problem, right? You could just eat the fruit before it's gross. I do eat the fruit, but I don't eat the whole container of fruit. You eat like one quarter apple, three quarters Fritos. No, I guess I'll eat more. How do you feel about your chances in the case, Natalie? Well, you know, when I came on the show, I thought it was going to be a no-brainer.

But if he wins this, I'm going to be pissed. I'm going to throw away everything in the fridge. No, you're not because you're under internet oath. You're abiding by the ruling. Right, right. I forgot. Turdfruit, how do you think you're going to do? You know what? Honestly, I think I did better than I forgot. Turdfruit, how do you think you're going to do? You know what?

Honestly, I think I did better than I thought. I fared pretty well considering the fact that I started off as a known sociopath and clearly somebody that bucks the system and doesn't, you know, value their own life. So, you know, I think I got a pretty decent chance. Well, we'll see how this goes. We'll be back with the verdict in just a moment. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to

embrace because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-R. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try.

Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O.

We are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast maximumfun.org if you need a laugh and you're on the go please rise as judge john hodgman re-enters the courtroom well i've i've rarely seen as princi, an expert witness as Alton Brown swing in his wrath to fancy so quickly. species and calling him a sociopath to essentially saying what he's doing is just fine and indeed honorable with regard to the saving of food. And the reason for this, I think expert witness Brown will agree, is that because both things are true and not mutually exclusive truths. Is that correct? I would say that that is correct and that the difference is that one is outside where things are very different and one is inside where the

food has been handled very differently. The key word here is, well, two words here is dog feces, and I think we all know it. So let's separate the issue for a moment. Let's keep the dog feces outside of this case for a moment and just deal with what's in the refrigerator with surface mold and things that are slightly going bad. I agree wholeheartedly with the accused, Mr. Hugo Plate Licker, that food should not go to waste unnecessarily. And with the expert testimony of Alton Brown, I am convinced that there is very little in

that refrigerator, though it might be displeasing to the eye and even to Hugo's own tongue that would cause him personal illness. That said, there is no accounting for taste, and it should be stipulated that Natalie may not want to eat some of that food. But if Hugo wants to eat a moldy grape, I don't see any reason to stop him from doing so. So in this regard, I find in favor of the accused, Hugo, you may eat moldy food out of the refrigerator. But in the other regard, Alton Brown, I take very seriously what you say, and I will submit to your sentencing guidelines with regard to eating food out of the backyard.

What is your recommendation? Here's my recommendation for eating food out of the backyard. There needs to be a protocol for washing, first and foremost, any produce that is consumed that hits the ground yard. And that needs to be warm. And I would prefer there to be a weak bleach solution used for the cleansing of that food before it is cut. Secondly, once the food on the ground has been breached by nature, be it weather, enzymatic action, or the activity of small flying insects, once that food is opened up and the interior is shown, it is to be discarded completely. Not opened up on the other side and then consumed.

All of the area around the trees is to be kept 100% clear of canine fecal matter at all times. I would even recommend a small fence area to make sure that the dogs are not allowed to lay their biscuits there under their own supervision. That's my call on this one. Do you understand what is being ordered of you, Hugo? I do, and I'll abide faithfully.

Now, it may be easier, though perhaps less, back to nature-y, to purchase your avocados and mangoes from a reputable dealer, which goes to the issue of Natalie's shopping habits. Natalie, you shop aspirationally. We don't have to talk about that. We don't have to talk about that. Oh, are you the judge? Are you the expert witness? Are you the turd eater? Are you the bailiff?

No. You're Natalie the over-shopper. Natalie, I'm on your side. I am on your side, okay? I am on your side, okay? Because you want to make salad with Fritos. And regardless of everything else that happens, the next time I'm in Fort Lauderdale, I will come over to your house and eat Fritos salad. Of course I will. You seem like nice people, and I know that I can probably not get sick from eating your Fritos salad. Especially if you follow the guidelines. Just don't eat off the plates.

Don't eat off the plates. Well, that is the last issue that I'm going to deal with. But I think expert witness Alton Brown got to something very important, which I had not, I don't know that I would have gotten to myself, which is the habit of buying things in an aspirational way, not eating them in a timely fashion, leaving them to rot, fomenting discord between yourself and your garbage eating husband, and then going into a weird psycho game of bleaching and soaping food to keep your husband from rooting around in the trash. to keep your husband from rooting around in the trash. All of this has nothing to do with healthful eating or thrift and home economics.

It is a weird game that the two of you are playing that must stop. And so I order you to not buy a thing unless you plan to eat it within a reasonable time frame. And I would say that that time frame, I don't know how you feel out and about, you know, sell-by dates. Sell-by dates are pretty useless, but I think that they could set a regular, you know, kind of stop gap for themselves.

If it's not consumed, you know, in a week, you know, it shouldn't be there. Right. I think they, you know, this, I'm sure there's a modern grocery store or some other market within a reasonable distance. You're not having to lay in supplies for months at a time. So I think that you need to plan the consumption of your fresh produce especially. But anything that's going in that refrigerator, you guys just need to meal plan. And maybe that's something you could do together so that you could take responsibility for this together. And then this issue, rather than driving you towards the inevitable divorce that we see coming for you.

Mathematically speaking. Just statistics. It's just statistics. Now, finally, with regard to the non-food issue of plate hygiene. First of all, Hugo, stop licking your plates in restaurants. That's gross. Yes. It is bad table manners.

And, of course, table manners are there not to keep you down, but to make everyone around you feel comfortable. You can get that food off your plate using appropriate utensils and licking a plate at the table. I don't care how informal the restaurant is. It's not appropriate. Okay? Now, do you disagree with me, Alton Brown?

No, no. And I want to extend that even to any container, like a styrofoam container that you might have in your car. Because as a member of society, I also don't want to drive up next to you and watch you licking out a Big Mac box. Okay? I've been that equally repulsive. Especially since they haven't made styrofoam Big Mac boxes since about 1981.

It's been a long time since I've been to a McDonald's. Okay? But I think you get the point. Especially. I don't want to watch you licking out some greasy box at your front seat. Right? No, no. Look, I understand in Europe,

they like to hang their Big Macs out for a while so they get that nice gamey flavor. So you might have some older, you know, antique, what you call heirloom Big Mac boxes. Yes. But even so, yes, no. Don't do that. And, you know, basically eating while in one's car is, let's just call it a luxury.

I wouldn't want to see someone eating, well, I'm not going to, well, you know what, Alan Brown, I'm going to ask you. I eat while I drive sometimes, but I don't like doing it because it doesn't feel safe to me. What do you think? I think it's a distraction and a bad idea. I also think it never is the right thing to do for your digestion. The food that we eat in cars, we are typically wolfing because it's not a comfortable place to eat. You're worried about spilling.

So it's not good for driving and it's not good for you. If you're going to get something, if I'm going to go to California and get myself a delicious In-N-Out burger, I'm going to park someplace and really concentrate on that fabulous burger. I don't want to be like split lanes and trying to, you know. Right, but then you're going to sit on the lawn outside of LAX

and watch the planes land. And watch the big jets land while I eat my burger. Abso-stinking-lutely. But this is not something that applies to Hugo at all because, you know, when he's driving around with his cheese danish, obviously he saves it until it gets more. Well, that's the other thing is that, you know, I can't help but notice, Your Honor,

you didn't ask him why that cheese danish had been there so long. Is he just naturally sloppy or was he actually cultivating this for the sheer purpose of knowing that when Natalie got in the car, he would be able to torture her with this, which I think might be one of the issues here. I presumed he was naturally sloppy. Let's find out. Are you naturally sloppy? one of the issues here. I presumed he was naturally sloppy. Let's find out. Are you naturally sloppy?

I'm naturally forgetful, and I have a lot of things on my plate. No pun intended. No pun completely intended, sir. That was the most offensive thing that you've said so far due to that intended pun. Now, with regard to your cleaning of plates, you, you know, Natalie told one story, you kind of danced around a story about using paper towels and occasional warm water. Obviously, you feel extremely self-conscious about your secret shame being revealed to the podcast listening world

that you don't clean your plates properly. I have absolute faith that whether you lick them clean or not at home, you are not cleaning them properly. I'm simply ordering you clean your plates with hot water and soap and dry them properly before putting them away. Would you disagree with me, Alton Brown? I would prefer the plates would be allowed to air dry after they are washed in hot soapy water and properly rinsed.

Air dry is best because you can have a lot of nasty things on dish towels. You don't want to clean it up with a dish towel that I've used 50 times to wipe off an avocado from the poop? Exactly. Your follow through is correct, sir. All right. Good. So do you all understand these orders that the court is giving you both? Yes, but can I just say one thing?

No. Stand by, Hugo. I am the judge here. I will allow the one thing. My house is clean. I promise. That's it. Oh, okay.

You're talking about its status with regard to its infestation of poltergeists? No, I just mean that my house is sanitary. Visitors can come by. I just want to, you know, have an open door policy with friends. I don't want them to all be scared off now. Well, now you see, you shouldn't have said that because now you really give me pause because you're the one who's accusing your husband of licking plates and putting them back in the cupboard, which is, I think, by definition, unclean. But I wash them. No, that's why I double wash all the plates in the washing machine.

I mean, in the dishwasher. She said double wash. Natalie, please define what you mean by that. I wash it with the sponge and the soap, and then I wash it again by putting it in the dishwasher to wash. You really are wasteful, aren't you? Yes. So basically, we could see this as Hugo

simply has developed behaviors to try to counterbalance your OCD. I'm not the one with OCD. He's the one with OCD. You're not OCD? You wash your dishes twice? But you're not OCD. Because he licks them, because I don't know what he's licked. He's become a compulsive...

You don't even know what your husband has licked? Nope. He's become a compulsive, mold-eating garbage hoarder and plate liquor in order to uh to counterbalance her uh ocd fascination with washing of dishes and putting bleach on perfectly good food and buying too much you know the grocery store that said i will still come over to your house you follow these orders eating fruit out of backyard, you have to follow Alton Brown's rules to the letter, and I will still not eat any of it personally.

Eating food out of the refrigerator that is sour or rancid or moldy or whatever, Alton Brown says that it probably won't kill you. I would advise you personally, don't eat food that you don't enjoy eating. That's a principle of life. If it tastes bad to you, you can throw it away. But otherwise, I admire your principle of thriftiness. And you may eat something even if your wife says that it is not palatable to her. You can't force her to eat it. You can't be licking plates in restaurants. I would advise you not to lick plates at home unless it's 2.30 in the morning and you're by yourself.

And whatever the case you're going to do, you're going to wash that place with hot water and soap. You may double wash it if you wish, but air dry it or I would presume a hot dry in the dishwasher is okay with you out in Brown. No problems there. Absolutely. No problem whatsoever, sir. Clean out all the cheese danishes out of your car and stop letting stuff rot in your car. Get your lives together. And then if you agree to all of these injunctions, then the next time I am in Fort Lauderdale,

I will come to your house for Frito salad. Do you so agree, Hugo? I do. And I can't wait to have you over for dinner. Do you so agree, Natalie? I agree, and I can't wait to have you over for dinner. Do you so agree, Natalie? I agree. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Hugo, how do you feel? Pretty good. I was still looking for a place to place another pun, but it never came. Okay. Shut your pie hole. Shut your pie hole. Pie hole. Natalie, how do you feel? I feel good and I still love my husband very much. Are you going to change your ways, guys? Yes.

I think, yeah, I can change the ways about the outside thing because the scientific perspective is something I respect. Natalie, Hugo, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. And thank you, Alton Brown, for being our expert witness. A pleasure as always, sir. Judge Hodgman, what are you eating? Judge Hodgman, what are you eating? What? Well, this is just some old Fritos salad I found under the cushions of my chamber's couch.

It's still good. It's still good. Okay. This is Fritos are supposed to be this color. And salad is supposed to be the color of Fritos, I think. You're the judge, so I'm just going to defer to you. Do you want to clear the docket? I do. Here's our first case from Eric.

My friend Nick and I have a longstanding dispute over the storing of ketchup. I believe that ketchup should be stored on the shelf or in the cupboard, basically anywhere but the refrigerator. Nick feels that ketchup can only be kept in the fridge because the label says so. I think cold ketchup ruins whatever you put it on. kept in the fridge because the label says so. I think cold ketchup ruins whatever you put it on. I also contend that the label warning is just corporate lawyers covering their butts. Ketchup's mostly salt. It's a preservative. We hope your decision will settle our argument once and for all. Ketchup in or out of the fridge. Well, unfortunately, expert witness Alton Brown had to leave to go cook a fresh meal for his family

of huitlacoche and poop mangas. So I would have liked to have had his input here, but I'm going to have to wing it. Based on what he said about refrigerated foods being mostly subject to decay rather than food poisoning, and based on my own independent research into the effectiveness of sell-by dates, because it's been a controversial issue since the beginning of this podcast, I will say that a preserved sauce like ketchup,

which after all is left on the counter of every diner day after day after day, is probably going to be safe, unrefrigerated, albeit for a shorter period of time. Indeed, they have found canned food and bottled food on the bottom of rivers that have been over 100 years old. And the food inside is largely still palatable. That is to say, when it is opened for the first time. That is to say, when it is opened for the first time. If you want to keep your ketchup out on your shelf after you open it, I would say please use that ketchup swiftly.

And also, you have to write me a letter indemnifying me of all charges should you die of ketchup poisoning. Here's a case from Lance. Occasionally I'll go on a midnight stroll to see a late movie at a fairly safe Cineplex in mid-city Los Angeles. My wife, who's prone to anxiety and often fears for my safety in a sweet but sometimes annoying way, has asked me to stop doing this. She says she can't sleep if she knows I'm out walking that late. But I really enjoy the exercise and the experience of walking around a quiet urban environment. Plus, I'm 6'4", and while I'm not a tough guy, I think it's a lot safer for me to take a midnight walk than it might be for a small woman. Is a partner's misplaced anxiety a good enough reason

to stop an activity you enjoy? Well, I don't know the specific neighborhood of Los Angeles that is being discussed here. Mid-city, does that mean anything to you? Los Angelino, Bailiff Jesse Thorne? Yeah, no, that means something. I don't know exactly what movie theater he's referring to, unless it's the Korean movie theater on Wilshire Boulevard that's on like the sixth floor of an office building.

If so, that's a great movie theater. I really encourage that he go there as much as he can, especially if he enjoys movies being shown with Korean subtitles apparently projected from DVDs. Well, given that I already told this other dude, Eric and Nick, that they can eat poisonous ketchup, I guess this is the docket of living dangerously. And I would say that if you are convinced that it is safe, you should do it. I wouldn't, personally, because I would want my wife to feel secure that I'm okay, and I would go with a friend. And I have friends, but maybe you don't. Is this guy going to lose from winning?

Well, yeah, I would say so. I mean, you know, for me personally, I would reassure my wife that I was going with a friend or I was driving at night and taking all precautions against, I guess, random mugging, which is not something that I have ever had the misfortune to experience either in Los Angeles or New York or Boston or Northampton, Massachusetts or any of the other places that I've lived. But it is not an unknown thing. And I think that it's worth giving your partner a peace of mind. And it's an easy thing to offer. And you have every opportunity to get exercise uh during the daylight hours um but you know why not take a go see a 2 a.m movie in dangerous mid-city uh while uh drinking a bottle of warm ketchup do it it, everybody. I don't care anymore. Eat garbage out of the garbage. I don't care anymore.

Just don't blame me. Don't blame me. When you're in the streets of Mid-City without your wallet bleeding ketchup from your nose. Well, that's all we've got on the docket this week. Although our listeners do have something on their personal dockets. Why do tell? Well, you've got to go to MaximumFun.org

slash donate and support the production of this show. Oh, of course, that's right. We don't just get money from Big Wheat La Coche. In fact, we get no money from Big Wheat La Coche or the French language or Canadian House of Pizza and Garbage

or any of the buzz marketing we do for both fictional and or non-corporate endeavors. We get money in order to do the show from you, the listener. And we do that throughout the year, if we're lucky, but especially now during what we call the Max Fund Drive. Isn't that right, Jesse? That's absolutely right. So if you're out there and you're listening, show's over. Now's the time.

This is the second show of the MaxFunDrive. Go to MaximumFun.org slash donate. And thank you. Stop licking your Big Mac box. Pull over. Get on your smartphone, your non-branded smartphone, and go to MaximumFun.org slash donate. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at GoSuperEgo.com. You can find John Hodgman online at AreasOfMyExpertise.com. John Hodgman online at areas of my expertise.com. If you have a case for judge John Hodgman,

go to maximum fund.org slash J J H O. If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum at forum.maximumfund.org and our Facebook group at facebook.com slash judge John Hodgman. We'll see you online. And next time right here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximumfun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Listener supported.