Judge John Hodgman - Two's Company

Episode Date: April 16, 2014

Judged by Guest Judge Jesse Thorn, and bailiffed by Jordan Morris! Margaret files suit against her male housemate and best friend, who's lied to his family about living with a woman. She wants him to come clean!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm your guest bailiff Jordan Morris in for Jesse Thorne. This week, Two's Company. Margaret and Bruce are best friends and have been housemates for over six years. But Bruce has never acknowledged living with Margaret to his grandparents, who are some of his closest family members. Margaret wants Bruce to fess up so his family knows her place in his life. Bruce says that coming clean would only complicate things. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge Jesse Thorne enters the courtroom. You may be seated. Margaret, you brought this case to my court. Can you concisely describe your dispute with Bruce? Okay, I'll do my best to be concise. We have been living together for close to seven years. That's your time.

Should have been more concise. I'm sorry. No, I'm just joking. Go ahead. You've been living together for close to seven years. We've been living together for close to seven years. When Bruce moved in with me, his grandparents were told he was moving in with a friend and assumed that they that he meant a boyfriend, like not like a romantic boyfriend, but a male friend. Bruce's grandparents would prefer that he be gay.

Yeah. Anyways, he felt that it would be too much of a hassle to explain to them that they were wrong so he just told them that i was named matt but exactly the same in every other particular and uh we've been living together for seven years and he's never corrected that and i would like him to correct that bruce tell me why you lied to your closest family members. Well, I didn't set out to lie to them. So when I told them I was moving, I told them I was moving in with a friend from college and they asked a bunch of questions. And then I kind of realized about like 10 questions in that they were kind of assuming that I meant a male friend from college. in that they were kind of assuming that I meant a male friend from college.

But by that point, I felt like I was too far in, like, to correct them. And also, like, then that would bring up the whole conversation, like, oh, like, this girl you're moving in with, is she a girlfriend? Is, like, someone you're dating? When you say that you felt like you were too far in, are you suggesting that your grandparents were in the mafia? Bruce is like, I'm doing one last hit for Nana and then I'm out. I think I can confidently say my grandparents are not in the mafia. And technically she's Mamaw.

Oh, excuse me. Not Nana. Excuse me, Mamaw. Mamaw, yeah. So at what point did you decide to go whole? I would imagine that as complicated as it might be to explain to grandparents who had assumed that you were moving in with a male friend that you were actually talking about a woman, that it would be similarly complicated to lie, like to come up with a convincing lie. Well, so I didn't really, the only thing I really changed is Margaret's name and her gender. So the two most important things about her identity.

Yeah, that's just a little white lie. Your grandparents call you on the phone and they're like how are you doing and you're like i'm okay my roommate matt is totally pmsing though you're like hey i was honest about her favorite movies what she thinks the best radio head album is all of the important stuff you were honest about except for name and gender. Everything that Mama asks first. Well, so one of the reasons why I think it's not too much of an issue is because my grandparents don't ask about my roommate anymore. Could it maybe be because they don't know enough about me?

Because someone doesn't talk about me? Because someone doesn't want to be caught lying? I don't think that's it. I've had roommates in the past for multiple years that they never asked about. I had friends in high school they weren't

very close with. I think they just don't ask a lot about my friends. I'm pretty close with most of, I'm still pretty close with most of my high school friends' grandparents. friends. I'm pretty close with most of I'm still pretty close with most of my high school friends' grandparents.

Well, I think a good question to ask you, Bruce, is are you still in touch with any of those people your grandparents didn't ask you about right now? Are you still in touch with any of your college roommates? No. It's establishing

for the record. Okay, well, Jordan, can you make sure that No. It's establishing for the record. Okay. Well, Jordan, can you make sure that the record reflects that he's not in touch with his college roommates? I'm getting the white out now. Yeah, I mean, you had written that whole part. I'm looking at the record right now. There are 10 pages about different college roommates and the correspondences, long-distance telephone calls. I mean, long-distance telephone calls are barely a thing anymore. And you wrote three pages about them.

So Bruce, can you tell me how, first of all, how many years ago it was that the two of you moved in together, how long this has been going on and also how frequently the topic of your roommate has come up in your conversations with your grandparents in the time since? Yeah, so I think we moved in together about seven years ago. And. You have to stop looking at me to tell the story. The judge asked you. have to stop looking at me to tell the story. The judge asked you. Yeah, so I would say I talk with my grandparents about once a month or so. And in the early days, when I was living in Boston,

they would occasionally ask about my roommate. But since then, it hasn't come up much at all. So the two of you have been roommates in multiple cities? No, always in Boston. One city, one apartment. One true friendship. One big lie. Sounds like the great tagline to a Lifetime movie. Can we get Dean Cain on the phone?

I think he'd be perfect for this. Margaret, can you characterize your relationship with Bruce? Sure. He's one of my best friends. If we talk, as Dr. Mindy Lahiri does, best friends is a tier instead of a role. We've lived together for, as you said, close to seven years. And before that, we became said, close to seven years.

And before that, we became friends when we were studying abroad. Our friendship was maintained by a weekly viewing of Veronica Mars at my apartment in college. And I don't know. I have a thing where I sort of arm wrestle socially awkward men into being friends with me. And I feel like Bruce is maybe the number one socially awkward friend I've most successfully arm wrestled into a lifetime of cherished. Well, I mean, I can see why they like you so much. You're so complimentary. You seem to be a kind friend. Yeah.

I am also very kind. She is. Margaret, also very kind. She is. Margaret, you said Doctor Who? Um, I think I said Veronica Mars,

but we did also watch Doctor Who together. not to tell- Hell no, Doctor Veronica Mars. Of course you watched, of course you watched Doctor Who together.

You're litigants on this program. I should say Doctor Whom, which, to which doctor did you refer when characterizing your relationship as on the best friend tier? Mindy Lahiri from The Mindy Project. Oh. A fictional doctor.

Fictional doctor, yeah. Not my therapist. Those are the best kind. Gotcha. Those are the best kind Gotcha Okay so Bruce Would you agree that you are On what fictional doctor Number one She's not called Dr. Mindy Lahiri

You refer to her as The doctor Would you agree Would you agree with your friend Margaret's characterization of your relationship? Yes, I would. Margaret's one of my closest friends. I'm going to be his best man if he ever gets married, which is really an open question. That is a promise that I made to her. It sounds like a promise.

It's a promise I forced him to make. Yeah, it sounds like it was a promise that was made under adverse circumstances. That's basically all promises Bruce has ever made to me. I mean, I'm a big believer in the male-female platonic friendship. I have a lot of platonic female friends myself but i think it it just for our for all of our you know frame of reference there was never anything romantic between you guys you never had a you know uh tipsy whatever or uh attempted uh how's your father uh no what about a clumsy Bob's your uncle? No. An ill-advised auga.

We have had none of the above. So tell me, Margaret, why this is a problem. I feel like Bruce is kind of a rolling stone who gathers no moss. He's emotionally minimalist. Despite the fact that he's lived in the same apartment with the same roommate for seven years. Doesn't sound like a rambling man to me.

Sounds like a pretty sedentary stone. Despite the fact that he's lived here for seven years He's the kind of guy who just says Hell, I'm a loner I'm a rebel As long as I'm with my best friend every Sunday

To watch Veronica Mars on the WB I'll do whatever the hell it is I please The cowboy spirit of the American West Is alive and well in Bruce. I would say probably for the first year that we lived together, I had a gnawing fear that I would wake up one morning and he would just be gone. He would have felt too uncomfortable to say goodbye. We did living together for three years

and really close friends for that whole time when we were walking to the grocery store one Sunday. And it was like, oh, someday we're going to move out and we'll still be friends, right? And Bruce paused for like 30 solid seconds and then said, maybe? So I would say that despite the settled friendship we appear to have, he does not maintain his social connections very well. a little more known to the people in his life,

it will be less easy for him to jettison me once he ultimately moves off to be like a mountain man in Vermont. So is your plan that when your quote unquote best friend to your friend decides he doesn't want to be friends anymore, you're going to call his nan-nan and pop-pop and get them to fix it for you? Mamaw and pataw.

And maybe... You're de-amazed how ingratiating I am. Well, don't do that. That's a bad plan. What are we doing? Yeah, I'm shooting an emergency injunction against you planning to have that plan. No, more seriously, I just feel like Bruce is very enmeshed in my life. He spends a lot of time with my family.

My brother calls him bro, which is not a thing that flows naturally off of his tongue. He's really good friends with all of my friends here in Boston. I'm the native person to this city and he rolled in from Ohio um and I just kind of want a little equivalency and obviously full equivalency is impossible because Bruce is an island unto himself um but that just means that his grandparents despite the fact that he only speaks with them once a month, are like maybe the most solid social satellite he has that I'm not already friends with. And I just like them to know my name. You just want to put sort of one more strand in your suffocating web of friendship.

Exactly. It's uncanny how well you expressed that. You want to be invited to visit WeWa and PeePoo the next time Bruce goes so you can get your hands on some of that sweetheart candy that PeePoo's got out on the coffee table. Is this whole thing about Werther's originals? Yeah. Are you just trying to get Werther's? This is one big buzz marketing campaign for Werther's. Dietetic Werther's originals.

Sugar-free peppermints. Bruce, Margaret's been doing a lot of the talking thus far, and I get the feeling that she's going to insist on doing a lot of the talking from this point forward. But I want to go to you specifically. I guess my first question is, are you in this relationship? And I understand it's not a romantic relationship, but are you in this friendship relationship willingly? Yes. And I have not been coerced into saying that.

See, here's the thing. Your friend has just described essentially a series of coercions. Am I off base about that? Am I off base about that? Well, only a little. Hold on one second, Bruce. Hold on one second.

Margaret, I need you to leave the room. I'll take my headphones off. Is that okay? Yes, absolutely. Please. I insist that you take your headphones off and leave the room. No, I do think that there is some element of coercion in the beginning of our friendship, but I think that's more to do with my general introversion and her general extroversion. Bruce, you know it's okay for you to talk to me, right?

Yes. I'm here for you, man. If you need me to make some calls for you. I feel totally safe. Well, we've worked this out. You can bring Margaret back to the... Okay. Okay.

Margaret, why this? Why now? Well, it just kind of came up in conversation. And I had no notion that it would be a problem. Bruce has a serious girlfriend now. And I was just chatting with my friends on Twitter. And I was goofing about this situation because I mostly think it's very funny. And I turned to Bruce and I was like, well, wait a sec.

Now that you have a girlfriend, it's going to be way less confusing that you're living platonically with a girl. You know, the role that they would accidentally be casting me in is already cast, already filled. So you should just tell your grandparents that Matt moved out and your friend Margaret is moving in. And then you know, everything's all set and they'll know me and maybe they'll

send us some cookies because they sent us a lot of cookies when we first lived together and those have tapered off. No more cookies. And I was thinking maybe a new roommate would prompt that. And then I have a feeling this is going to end with someone getting murdered in a rowboat

like the talented Mr. Ripley. Yeah, what was that one movie where Will Smith was an imposter and he worked his way into the high reaches of the upper middle class? I don't know. Men in Black? Yeah, it was don't know. Men in black? Yeah, it was men in black.

Men in black. It was a real men in black situation. By upper middle class, you mean aliens. Yeah. Margaret, to me, it sounds like you're trying to secure your place in Bruce's metaphorical firmament your place in Bruce's metaphorical firmament because Bruce has introduced a new woman into his life. The first non-family member who may rank on a higher tier than your tier. That's less true than it seems, but certainly contributes to a sense that like we both we were in grad school together and we both finished grad school.

We're applying for jobs that go with our degrees and Bruce applies for jobs all over the country. And we've been living together for seven years. And I have a pretty reasonable fear that, you know, we're not going to get to keep living together forever. you know, we're not going to get to keep living together forever. I'd say that's probably a bigger factor in why it's an actual emotional issue for me than anything else. Just, yeah. What are you going to do when you don't have Bruce to watch Veronica Mars with? How will you find another nerd that likes Veronica Mars?

It's going to be really hard, Jesse. Bruce, how, is this just a matter of that? Are your grandparents just crazy, crazy conservative? And do you think they would fly off the handle if you were living platonically with a woman? I don't think they would, but it's like I'm super cautious about those things because I feel like my grandmother especially has had problems

in the past with things that I thought were very innocuous, like Magic the Gathering cards and having long hair. Well, both are ways for Satan to get into your undies. Yes. And ways for Satan to get into your undies. Yes. And ways to keep girls out of your undies.

Bruce did maintain having long hair, however, for like 10 solid years. So whether Mamaw's disapproval is like such a guiding light in his life is a little open to question. Would you say that he got a serious girlfriend because he got a haircut or that he got a haircut because he got a serious girlfriend? I got a haircut because I was interviewing for jobs. And then the serious girlfriend came along a few years later.

But I feel the lack of long hair was a key move in attracting her. Now what's the status of your magic deck? Oh, they're all gone. I stopped playing magic long, long ago. He's a Warhammer guy now. Oh, okay. He's into miniatures. It's Digimon or nothing

only bakugan so bruce yes bruce do you have reason to feel that if you didn't tell your grandparents this, the truth would out in some way? I don't think that's the case. Like in the seven years I've lived here, my grandparents have never visited. They've never expressed a desire to visit. I've only visited them once, I think, because I'm a bad grandson. So I can't imagine a situation in which Margaret would meet my grandparents in person in a situation where they would know that she was my roommate. Are your parents part of this lie?

So another thing is that I'm really bad at communicating with my family in general. Um, so I would say it's been since before Christmas that I talked to my mom and before that it was like a full year. You're laughing, but it doesn't sound funny at all. You're describing something that everyone else would think was really sad it's i mean i i don't know my family's just weird loners i guess now but but you must have coordinated with your parents at some point this lie, because what happens if your grandparents are talking to your parents about your living situation? Well, I did tell my mom that I moved in with Margaret and then Margaret was a girl and that we weren't dating because I didn't think she would have a problem with it at all or a misunderstanding about it. But my mom also doesn't talk to my grandparents much at all.

So there's little danger of that coming out in a conversation between them. What do you think would happen if your grandparents knew about this situation? What do you think would happen if your grandparents knew about this situation? I don't I can't imagine anything would change ultimately. I feel like there might be an initial awkwardness. Like, I don't think they would strike up a friendship. I don't think Margaret would be calling them on weekends to chat about recipes. on weekends to chat about recipes. Who knows?

Do you think that if you described Margaret to your grandparents as your roommate, they would ask you to explain the backstory of how you lost the roommate that you once described to them seven years ago and got a different roommate? Listen, this whole thing can be solved with a hilarious dinner and fake mustaches where people are playing different fake roommates and coming in and going to the bathroom,

and then two 10-year-olds sit on each other's shoulders and put a trench coat around them. I don't know. It just sounds funny to me. That's what should happen. Jordan thinks all problems can be solved with a little bit of Molierean farce. Doesn't that sound fun to you guys? Absolutely.

Yeah. Bruce, is marriage or some other occasion that would bring your family together in your future? Not in the near foreseeable future. What about a horrible future where apes are our masters? A terribly unforeseen disaster. What about a distant future where we live in the far reaches of the universe? Bruce, I guess the question we're asking is, have you thought about terraforming Mars? All the time.

Cool, dude. Me too, man. Me too. Bruce, describe to me what you're afraid of. I don't know if it would be a problem with them. I worry that if it is a problem with them, that she wouldn't confront me directly, that my grandparents would just be silently disappointed in me. I worry that like they will make assumptions and then not ask to clarify and that it would be weird to just, I don't know. Margaret, why is this your business? What do you care? I don't know.

Margaret, why is this your business? What do you care? It's just my business because, I don't know. I care about Bruce. Is everything your business? Everything is my business, yes. But I think... You know better than everyone else. I really do an admirable job of not interfering Bruce's life too much or bossing him too much.

And it's just, you know. Give me an example of a time that you've interfered in Bruce's life or bossed him just enough. I we have a lot of friends in common. Uh, I, we have a lot of friends in common. Um, when I become aware of the fact that like, he's accepted invitations to events and then just not gone like four times in a row, I'll just be like, Bruce, you should probably just text people so that they know you're not going to be there if they don't wait for you the whole time. So that's, that's a moment where I've interfered just the right amount in Bruce's life. Did you take the phone out of his hand and text them on his behalf?

I don't think I've ever done that. Have I ever done that? I'm shaking his head no. It's an open question, though. It's something we're going to have to get to the bottom of um i'm frequently tempted to do things of that nature that would be wildly inappropriate but i'm mostly good at controlling those impulses mostly so then what is your practical solution to this problem my practical solution is very simple.

Just at the beginning of next month, he can mention that his old roommate is moving out, mention that I am moving in. And then in the future, when he and I do activities together, instead of just saying I did such and such thing with my friends, he can say I did such and such thing with my roommate, Margaret. You just use my name with them for like six months, and then you can just let it go whatever way it's going to go. I think you should be using our other friends' names too, but that's Bruce's business. If it's, in this case, it's your

business. When it comes to my name, I'm willing to say it's my business. Is that because you're Rumpelstilestilled skin how did you guess it seems to me that it's it's i i mean i kind of get where you're coming from you feel like you know he's embarrassed of you or something but like if you just expected full grandma transparency do you also want to him to tell his grandparents about, you know, doing shrooms and going to Bonnaroo or something?

Does he just have to tell his grandparents everything? Well, one, there's almost nothing in Bruce's life that he couldn't safely tell his grandparents that he does. And no, I don't want... You know because you have a microscope held up to Bruce's life and you know exactly what he's doing at all times

and he has no secrets. Well, she has to sign off on what he does. Oh, that's true. Yeah, yeah. Listen. I keep Bruce's calendar very carefully. At the beginning of the month, she gives Bruce and his girlfriend

three romance tokens. Bruce, these tokens can be redeemed for apps. Bruce, I need to talk to you about your role in all of this. First of all, how would you like to proceed? Status quo? Yeah. I would have no problem in an event where Margaret did meet my grandparents somehow. I would have no problem introducing her as one of my best friends. Um, and,

but otherwise, like, I don't see the, the necessity of volunteering this additional lie, um, just so that my grandparents can continue to not ask about my roommate. Do you think that you need Margaret's help, not just in this case, but generally asserting yourself in difficult situations socially, whether it's with your family or with other people in your life? No, I don't. Margaret's giving me a face. Like, yes, I do. No, I think I'm moderately assertive in my personal life. Are you checking right now with Margaret as to whether you're moderately assertive? Whether your assertion-ry assertiveness is correct?

Kind of. Listen, just ask yourself, what would Veronica Mars do? What would Veronica Mars do, Bruce? Gosh, I don't know that that's a good guiding light in this situation. She's pretty duplicitous. Yeah, morally ambiguous at times. Well, she gets the job done. She does what she has to do, is what I would say.

Well, Margaret, do you have any closing thoughts that you think are going to seal the deal on this thing well I was mostly going to counter Bruce's suggestion that he didn't need my guidance yeah of course you were there are like a couple things lately

I mean like I've been working to get you to get a raise at work. And I feel like they're giving good advice there. Bruce. Is this a two-way street? Does Bruce ever help you out with social slash work slash family problems? I don't know that I go to Bruce for advice quite as often, but I do go to Bruce for advice about stuff. He's given me good advice about how to deal with online dating things. And he is really helpful in sort of providing a balance to a lot of different situations in my

life that I don't want to be more explicit about because I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. But he's a really valuable part of my life. And he has earned his place in the best frontier by being incredibly supportive and kind and baking birthday cakes and just being, you know, a great and reliable and valuable friend. Bruce, do your grandparents listen to podcasts at all? They do not. They do not have the internet at all. Bruce, given that fact, can you please share with us something that you wouldn't share with your grandparents? One of the almost no things in your life that you wouldn't share with your grandparents? So my grandparents have also assumed that I don't drink alcohol at all, which I have also not corrected them about.

I didn't know that. Are your grandparents Mormons or would you say that they're like Carrie Nation era teetotalers? My grandmother is a Baptist. So as long as you're not going to any barn dances, you should be fine. Margaret, Bruce, I've heard everything that I need to hear. I'll be back in a few minutes with my decision. Please rise. Judge Jesse Thorne is leaving the courtroom.

So I have a question. I mean, it seems to me that it's, I guess from our perspective, what it seems is like this kind of new girlfriend is kind of the catalyst for this stuff. In regards to Bruce's new girlfriend, do you guys do things? Do you double date? Do you go out as a threesome? And I mean that non-sexually. I guess, is Bruce's girlfriend a part of your guys' social life together? Yeah, but I think Bruce can also attest that I have been possessive and needy

long before he had any girlfriends. This is not a new dynamic in our relationship. But I'm just saying, do you feel like you're also getting to know Bruce's girlfriend like, you know, a best friend should? Yeah. Now, you guys have lived together a long time. I mean, seven years is a long time

not just to have one roommate, but to have, you a long time. I mean, seven years is a long time, not just to have one roommate, but to have, you know, roommates. Like, do you guys think about living on your own? Like, you know, getting singles? Bruce, I don't know if you, you know, think about moving in with this girlfriend. Do you guys, do you guys, is it a goal of yours to live, you know, without roommates? Is it a goal of yours to live, you know, without roommates? I can't foresee a situation where I can financially afford to live without roommates. Hey, don't don't talk like it's just a question of fiscal advisability, Bruce. We also like living together.

That's very true. You have to say it louder because otherwise I just sound like I'm lying. That's true. But if you guys were, you know, if you guys did get big raises or dream jobs, do you think you would still live together or would you, you know, look for your own places? I think the only thing about our living situation that I would change is currently we can't get a dog in our apartment and move someplace else that I could get a dog. So you and Bruce would move somewhere together and then adopt a dog? We're probably not going to move anywhere together. No, but I don't feel any pressure to not be living with Bruce.

We get along really well. And I have a hard time imagining that I would find somebody else that I would live with this easily and enjoyably. I mean, like maybe I'll meet someone. Or maybe we'll get jobs that take us to other cities. Sure. We'll be back in just a minute with Judge Thorne's decision. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you,

the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join, and you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable,

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Smiling faces show no traces of the evil which lurks within. Can you dig it? That's what the Undisputed Truth taught us in their 1971 smash, Smiling Faces. It doesn't quite apply to this situation, but it's one of my favorite songs. I went and listened to it while I was thinking about this case. Anyway, let's get to the decision. What's our story here? Two people.

Bruce is a milquetoast. Margaret is a pushy know-it-all. Somehow each has strengths which complement the other's weaknesses. It's been a sturdy relationship, seven years of cohabitation, two people bound together as tight as the planks in a cedar canoe by their own dysfunction. But now there's a third party, a love interest. And the fear is the canoe might be torn apart. So Margaret wants to

assure herself that her half of the canoe won't sink. She wants to lash herself to something, anything, even if it's mama and papa. Bruce? Well, Bruce wants to do nothing. That's what

Bruce always wants to do. Ultimately, in this case, though, I have to find for Bruce. Because Margaret should know that there's a better way to be a friend than to tie herself into her friend's family against his will. And she should know that even if she wants him to acknowledge her, there's a better way than asking him to lie for her, even if he did lie about her once already, just out of convenience. So I find for Bruce, it's my personal preference that he speak honestly in the future about his friend Margaret, because she is a real friend and she does love him. That's clear.

But I don't ask that he make up a new lie to do it. And I don't even comp he make up a new lie to do it. And I don't even compel him to do anything. I don't compel him to tell his parents about Margaret. I don't compel him to tell his parents about his alcohol consumption or his internet use or his strange bedroom activities. I don't know specifically about his strange bedroom activities, but I feel like it's a safe assumption. Bruce is an adult. He can live his own life and buy his own Werther's Originals.

So, Margaret, let your friend be himself for once. It's his family. It's his decision. Justice has been served. Judge Jesse Thorne has rendered his verdict. Bruce, we'll go to you. You were Judge Thorne found in your favor. How do you feel?

I feel good. I'm a little sad for Margaret. She looks very disheartened at the news. But I think this is for the best. Bruce, settle down. You're a real firecracker. Margaret, how do you feel? Do you think that the

verdict was fair? Yes. I'm disappointed, but I guess I chafed at the idea that I don't let Bruce be himself. But I'm happy to continue letting him be himself in this point,

as I have for the last six years. I also, I don't think Margaret, the way to like continue being friends with me is to latch onto my family because clearly I don't, I'm not as close with them as I am to say you. So I think maybe from your perspective, it may seem like,

yeah, I mean, it sounds like maybe Mimi and Wee Wee should latch on to Margaret. Right, exactly. They want to get closer to you. Well, justice has been served. Thank you both for being on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Hello, teachers and faculty. Thank you. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience.

One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O.

Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Judge Thorne, since we've retired to your rec room, shall we clear the docket? God, you're so bossy. Sorry. Would it be okay if we cleared the docket if you weren't doing anything else? Do you mind if I check with my mama and papa? Yes, please do. I would not want mama and papa upset with us.

I just IM'd them and they said it's okay. Oh, great. Okay. They're so modern using IM. Oh, yeah. They're all over the internet. They love the internet. Alex writes, My wife Christina and I own an indoor cat. Historically, we have leashed the cat when he goes outdoors. Alex writes, supervision. Christina believes the cat is dumb and would jump off the patio if he is not leashed. Judge Thorne, what do you say? Should the cat be leashed if he goes onto the patio?

Jordan, I'm a dog person. You're a cat person. Neither of us has, let's be clear, neither of us has beef. You love my dog Coco and my dog Sissy. I love your cat Bug. Sure. But you have a lot more cat experience than I. Sure. Well, yeah, I mean, my cat is an indoor cat. She sometimes looks out the window like she wants to go outside, but when the window comes open or the door that comes open, she never goes for it.

I think it's more like a TV to her as opposed to something she wants to interact with. Yeah, I mean, okay, cats on leashes is weird. If you, you know, everyone remembers the one time a year they see somebody on the street with a cat on a leash. You know, you're opening yourself up to looks from people. But, I mean, I think that I actually have a friend whose cat transitioned from being an outdoor cat or from being an indoor cat to a indoor outdoor cat. And there's some trick you can do by like covering something and letting him kind of gradually get accustomed to the outdoors.

Uh, I know that isn't very helpful, you know, cover it some way with a thing. Uh, I think there are strategies to helping your cat become a hybrid indoor-outdoor animal. I would say do one of those. And I think your girlfriend is right to be concerned about the cat's safety. So, yeah, I think just take precautions. But I think it's something that can be done and is done all the time. A cat can probably jump four feet, right? Yeah, he'll be fine.

No, but, I mean, he can, can't he? Can't a cat jump four feet in the air? Oh, like if he falls off, can he get back up? Well, here's the thing. This is why I'm concerned. My dogs are wonderful dogs and I love them a lot. I want to make that clear before I say, and this was the most, one of the worst experiences of my life. So I also want to say that before I say this in a lighthearted tone that's appropriate for this podcast. But I had a patio on the roof of my apartment or my home slash flat in Los Angeles. And one time my dogs were out there with my wife

and they saw a squirrel and jumped off the roof. And they were fine. They were totally totally fine i want to make that clear but they jumped completely off the roof after the squirrel two of them one and then the other jumped off the roof fell several stories and we had to take them to the dog hospital and get them checked out and turned out they were okay thank god but it was the scariest thing that's ever happened in my entire life. It was even scarier than that time a ghost broke into the mansion that I used to live in. But you just knew that if you stayed in the mansion overnight, you would get that inheritance. Yeah, exactly.

So that helped. Yeah, that made it a lot better. Yeah, I'd say I'm sure there's some sort of cat website you can go on to let you know how to introduce your cat to the outdoors gradually. Yeah, I hereby find that you call a cat person, like a professional cat person, or go on a professional cat person's website and find out about this. Find out how high a cat can jump. And you do two things. You pursue covering whatever part of the cat is necessary to cover to make it comfortable transitioning from an indoor cat to an indoor outdoor cat.

And you find out how high a cat can jump and take whatever mess, whatever steps are necessary that you're to prevent your cat from jumping off your patio looking for a bird. And you do that on the safe side because, you know, the worst can happen. I know it happened to me. Also, one time I saw a dog jump out of a car window, so don't ever let your dog put its head out of a car window because that was the most traumatic thing that I've ever seen in my life. Let's get another case, huh? Katrina writes, or excuse me, Katrin, K-A-T-R-I-N.

That's a weird name. It's pronounced Katrine. Okay, excuse me. Katrine writes, My boyfriend Clayton refuses to get me the one gift I ask for. Every birthday, Valentine's Day, Christmas, and anniversary, I ask for one thing. I ask for a scratcher. He refuses to get me one. It wouldn't bother me if he didn't ask me what I want, but he does, so it does. I say, if you ask someone what they want as a gift, and it's a reasonable price, you

should get it for them. Please order Clay to stop asking what I want for a gift, or to take my request seriously and get me the scratcher. Do you think she means like a lottery scratcher, or like one of those long sticks with the little wooden fingers at the end that you use to scratch a hard to scratch part of your back? I was, I mean, I'm

still thinking cats, so I'm assuming this letter is from a cat who wants a scratching post. Do you think it's possible that in Katrine's state, those two or maybe even all three things have been combined into one thing that's just called a scratcher? Like, it's like a thing that you use to scratch your back, but it also comes with a chance of winning millions. And if you have a cat, you can give it to the cat. Also, it's a place for a cat to sharpen its claws. Yeah.

Wouldn't that be cute if there was a giant scratching post that has the cat scratched it like there's little cherries on underneath it and then you can take it to the pet store for money?

That does sound fun. Oh, man. Too bad gambling's illegal or we would have just become rich. Scratch off scratchers. Yeah. Scratch off scratching posts.

Let's pitch this to the Powerball people. Yeah, I think so. I think just on the local news they could have a cat scratching a thing for 10 minutes until it reveals the uh the winning numbers oh just with like uh with like an old newsman and a woman in a bikini just sitting there waiting for it to do it um yeah i think uh i think i'm gonna assume do you feel it's gonna be the lottery kind right yeah well i guess here's what here's the story i'm creating in my head is that uh is that she wants a scratcher a scratch off lottery ticket and he has like you know he's a guy who thinks they're stupid

and is taking a stand here. Okay. Then I say he, if he asks, it's his choice whether to ask or not. If he asks and she says she wants a scratch-off lottery ticket, he has to buy her one. He can buy her a nice romantic present. He can put the freaking scratch-off lottery ticket, he has to buy her one. He can buy her a nice romantic present. He can put the freaking scratch-off lottery ticket in the card like everyone's grandma and grandpa has done since forever.

Yeah, that's what scratchers are for. They're to add to something that you actually would want that's a thing. Or to be compulsively purchased with your Social Security money. Either of those two things. My Uber driver gave me a scratcher the other day. Oh, wow. That's very nice. I want another scratcher.

Yeah. I think, you know, if this guy doesn't have it in his heart to buy a dollar scratch-off lottery ticket for his sweet girlfriend, Katrine, then, you know, who is he, really? Yeah. Some sort of jerk. If it's a back scratcher, I honestly, if it's a back scratcher, I feel the same way. I think that if he asks and she wants a back scratcher, he has to buy it for her. He can buy her something else too, like chocolate roses or whatever.

Yeah. Probably chocolate roses. Yeah. But I'm not going to, I think, and I don't think that this applies to every gift. If she asked for a Ferrari, he doesn't have to buy her a Ferrari. I'm not making a blanket rule. A trip to an island where you hunt men for sport? That's morally reprehensible.

It is. I think. Well, I agree completely. And you know what? I also don't think that she should get him a trip to a country where once a year they have a contest to see who can make it from one end of the country to the other, including traveling through the village of the crazies. And even if she does have gymnastic skills and karate skills. Listen, we do think you should take your girlfriend on a murdering spree when the purge happens, though. We both agree. And also, if you just want to get your girlfriend tickets to the game, Gymkata, or the purge,

then by all means do so. We will also accept No Escape starring Ray Liotta. I will find for the plaintiff in this case, if she asks specifically for a scratcher, be it a back scratcher or a lottery ticket, but I would also include the proviso that I would strongly recommend that he get her something nicer and more romantic in addition. Like a copy of Hard Target on DVD starring Jean-Claude Van Damme. Exactly. Yet another hunting man for sport movie. Exactly. It's weird that this, whether this is a scratch-off lottery ticket or a back scratcher, this woman is just interested in

stocking stuffers. Yes. Well, that's sort of like a fun hobby for her. Yeah. Get some pencil toppers. To be fair, she also does executive gifts. She has some interest in executive gifts. Right. Find tequilas. So I say, get her the scratch-off lottery ticket

first, and then get her one of those clinkety-clank ball sets that goes on your desk. Sure. Clunk, clunk, clunk, clunk. You know what I'm talking about. Oh, yeah. Something you buy at the Sharper Image. Who named this week's case, Jordan? Thanks to Mark Namark for suggesting this week's case name. To suggest

a name for a future case, like us on Facebook. We regularly put out the call for submissions. I've been your guest bailiff, Jordan Morris. Please listen to Jesse and I on the hit podcast Jordan, Jesse Go. You can get that at MaximumFun.org or in iTunes. Don't be a turkey. It's a fun show. It's a fun show.

It doesn't have a judicial premise like this one. No, it's just sitting around and goofing the goof. Yeah. Fun goofs. Very vulgar. Don't listen to it with your children. Julia Smith produces the show. Mark McConville is our editor. Thanks for joining us for the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith

and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at GoSuperEgo.com. You can find John Hodgman online at AreasOfMyExpertise.com. If you have. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts

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