Judge John Hodgman - Van Freaks Roadshow in Durham

Episode Date: September 18, 2024

Should two tree-loving North Carolinans chop down their fig trees? Should one be allowed to brush their teeth in bed? These disputes and more! Recorded on our Van Freaks Roadshow tour in Durham!Should two tree-loving North Carolinans chop down their fig trees? Should one be allowed to brush their teeth in bed? These disputes and more! Recorded on our Van Freaks Roadshow tour in Durham!We are on TikTok and YouTube! Follow us on both @judgejohnhodgmanpod! Follow us on Instagram @judgejohnhodgman.Thanks to reddit user u/toliveandbrianLA for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com! Judge John Hodgman: Road Court is happening NOW! Get your tickets at maximumfun.org/events.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorn here with Judge John Hodgman. We just finished our first leg of the incredible Judge John Hodgman road court tour. We had a wonderful time dispensing justice in New York City, Philadelphia, Washington, DC and Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And now we're getting ready to go back out on the road for our shows in Ann Arbor, in Madison and St. Paul, Minnesota This week's episode was recorded during our last tour live in Durham, North Carolina

We talked about local trees and friendships and a romantic partnership classic My fiance brushes her teeth in our bed in bed We had such a good time in Durham and we can't wait to keep the road court going. If you're near Madison and St. Paul, get your tickets now at maximumfund.org. If you have disputes for Madison, St. Paul or Ann Arbor, go to maximumfund.org. But now without further ado, let's get to the stage of the Carolina Theater in Durham, North Carolina. Theater in Durham, North Carolina. North Carolina, you came to us seeking justice and we are here to deliver it. The Court of Judge John Hodgman is now in

session. Let's bring out our first set of litigants. Please welcome to the stage, Steph and David. Please welcome to the stage, Steph and David. Tonight's case, double figdemnitry. Steph brings the case against her partner David. Steph says the fig trees in their backyard have got to go, but David wants to save them. Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference. I'm the last leaf on the tree. The autumn took the rest, but they won't take me. I'm the last leaf on the tree when the autumn wind blows There's always a second verse.

They're already gone, flutter to the ground, cause they can't hang on. There's nothing in the world that I ain't seen. I greet all the new ones that are coming in green. I'm the last fig on the tree. The Bell of Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Steph and David, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he himself is a bit of a crabapple? Yes. Yes. Son of a fig.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. You're rolling your eyes every night at my Tom Waits impersonations that I am performing with incredible love. That's a hint to both of you. Well, I love crab apples. And then you come in with some kind of crab apple? I said you're a crab apple. I love you very much, John.

I love you too. Steph and David, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment. One of your favors, can either of you name not only the artist, but the specific song that I sang as I entered this courtroom? Let's try you, Steph. What's your guess? The Last Leaf on the Tree by Tom Waits. Hmm. Last Leaf on the Tree by Tom Waits, you say. Interesting guess. Definitely writing it down. What about you, David? We'll find out in a moment if you're right.

Um, that feels like a safe guess to me. Feels like a safe guess. You're gonna guess the same thing? I like to guess the same. It's kind of not fair. Probably should have done it by secret ballot now that I realize. David, if it helps, we've been on tour for a few weeks, so it can't be 75 of the Tom Waits songs. We have eliminated a few so far. I knew it was Tom Waits. I just...

Oh, did you? I... What tip? What tip my hand? What? Listening to the podcast. Listening to the podcast. Put down last leaf on the tree.

Well, guess what? Both guesses are correct. Nullify. Can either of you name the album that it comes from? No. Anyway, let's move along then. Both guesses are correct. Nullify! Can either of you name the album that it comes from? No. Anyway, let's move along then. All guesses are wrong. And, Steph and David, who comes here to seek justice in my courtroom? I do.

Despite the record show that Steph said I do? What is the nature of the dispute? Well, we have two big, big trees in our yard, as I'm sure most of the audience also does, because this is North Carolina. And they're in our backyard. Is that true? Is it true?

Is it true? A lot of fig trees? Is it true? Is it true? This is all information. Yeah. Because Steph wants to destroy her trees. Right.

And if I knew they were the last two fig trees in North Carolina, that might influence my decision. Yeah. But. And if I knew they're the last two fig trees in North Carolina, that might influence my decision. Yeah. But now that I know that they're practically weeds here in the triangle, I might make a different decision. Okay. So why do you hate these trees so much?

Well, one... What's the... Who's the villain from the Lorax? Yeah. The Onceler. The Onceler. Yeah, you're the Onceler. Wear your gloves. I don't know, but I could barely get through reading the Lorax without, you know, crying.

That's how much I love trees. I once had a screaming match with a developer who had called a guy with a chainsaw to cut down a tree in a neighboring yard and saved the tree for a few more days. So I definitely love trees. You're feeling about trees when it comes to your neighbors is tree for thee, not for me. Yeah, there you go. Why do you... Well, it was a little bit on my property.

Okay. So a little for me. But the trees that are on your property, that not only are on your property, but rely on your property for their life essence, the birth of your property. Yes, fully. You want to destroy them. I do two of them, yeah.

OK, what's wrong with these two? Well, the one. Are they bad apples? Yeah, well, one, I mean, OK, the figs that they make taste bad. So that's number one. Bad tasting figs. Yeah. All right. OK,. Bad tasting figs. Yeah. All right. Okay. And I

like, I like figs, but this type of fig is bad and I think David will not dispute me that, that they taste bad. But two, they're really big, they take up a lot of the space in the fenced-in part of our backyard. The trees are the figs? Are they those big gross trash figs? I mean, that's how I feel about them. Do you dispute that they taste bad, these figs? These figs are gross, right David? They don't taste like optimal, they're not. I mean, you can make good things with them, but they're not really good figs.

What can you make from these figs? I mean, I cook them in a pan with some butter. They're good. You can caramelize them a little. It's good. I put them on some baked goods. I make jam. Jam is really good.

Yeah. Do you have any jam with you? I do. Let the record show. Let the record show Let the record show Now It should be very clear that I knew ahead of time that David had fig jam What I did not know I was thinking to myself John is that fig jam in your pocket or?

What I did not know is that he did not have it in his jeans pocket Specifically his front jeans pocket. Thank you for warming it up. Gotta release the essential oils, John, of the jeans. Let me open this up here. Can I say one thing about the Fig Jam? Yeah. Is there a warning before I open it?

No, no. I just... This fig jam is the absolute pinnacle of what the figs can achieve. This is them at their best. This is the best... Like, if we're gonna steel man the argument here, this is the best that will ever be got. So, in other words, it's all downhill from here.

It is all downhill. So if this jam tastes like butt, then I'm gonna rule in your favor, because this is as good as it gets in the jam department. Right. But I mean, we have to balance, you know, my argument is, we have to balance, you know, how good is this jam and how much work is this jam with what the trees are doing.

Now, just a question before I eat something you gave me out of a jar. This isn't gonna hurt me right? No, no. I mean we've already established I've already died. It's a New York Times recipe. It's a new, I know, like the figs, did the figs, like did you collect them from the ground? Did they fall in manure or anything? No, no. You picked these from the tree? These were like the primus figs from our tree. These are figs picked directly from a tree. He's worked his butt off to like get these, get them before the birds get them, like it is a whole process. Pick fresh off the tree just like in iClaudius.

Yeah, yeah. The best they could possibly be and yeah, think about it. You people haven't watched iClaudius, you gotta get to. Judge Hodgman is consuming the jam. It's a lot happening. Judge Hodgeman, can you describe the notes? It's the last fig on the tree. It has melancholy undertones. Would you describe the flavor as mannered? A surprising formal accomplishment in the guise of a gutter snipe growl. That's how I would describe it.

Wow. Yeah. Also better than the garbage that's in a Fig Newton. But you know, I hate Fig Newtons because they're named after Newton Massachusetts. Brookline's ancient rival. All of that's true. Is there some cinnamon in this? No I mean lemon and rosemary. Lemon and rosemary. Yeah. You know the fig should stand on its own. And it can't. Don't try to dress up a fig to save these trees. So do you want to share why there's lemon and rosemary in it?

Do you remember? Well, I mean, it doesn't have a lot of flavor to it. You got to... But it's a good... We're just... It's pretty figgy. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. I would say this fig jam is fine. It's fine figs. It's fine. It's fine. That's what I say. They're fine figs.

Is there another reason that you want to get rid of the trees? I mean, it's a lot of work to get to the point of the fig. It's almost like he's compelled to harvest every... No, look, I'm just going to make an immediate ruling right now. No one's going to make this jam again. So your argument that it's gonna take a lot of work to get to the jam stage is no longer, that doesn't, has no merit, okay? That's moot.

All right. I'm trying to decide whether you're gonna cut these trees down or not. Oh, dang. You understand what I'm saying? That's the stakes. David, why shouldn't you cut down the trees? I mean, it's like a gift from nature to us

and we're gonna reject it. These fruit producing tree, we're gonna spurn and we're gonna cut it, we're gonna kill these trees just because they weren't sweet enough for us. The audience is on David's side. I know, it's just... It just doesn't seem right. Wait, wait, wait. This is not how things are decided in this court. But just out of curiosity, I did say the audience is on David's side,

but to be fair, a smattering. Are there some quiet tree haters in this group? Not yet. Well, group? Let me have, well, wow. Because they know. If you know how it is. They have their own giant fig tree that is taking up their yard, that they're just sick of it. Do, let me, just to get a sense of where the audience stands, if you feel that they should get rid of these trees, don't applaud, just start chanting, kill the trees. First of all, I love our audience, Jesse, thanks for reassuring me that you'll never have any rhythm. Second of all, that was quite an outpouring for kill the trees. People love to chant, unfortunately.

But I do get a sense that here in the research triangle, Durham Chapel Hill in Raleigh, that maybe these trees are not considered to be so hot. Would you say? Do they cause problems? Do they choke out other trees and plants or anything? No, they're just like really common and they produce lots of fruit and they all kind of fall to the ground like a bit of a mess. And I think the most common variety is the variety we have, which is like...

The s***. Yeah, a brown turkey fig. Brown turkey fig? Yeah, and they're... But why did I have to resort to swearing? When all I had to say was, the brown turkey fig. Bleugh.

Welcome to the Durham Farmers Market. Can I offer you a stewed goat apple? Guano pear for you, sir? Can I just say, one, it's the only... There are trees that take up our fenced-in backyard, so our kids literally cannot, like, play in the fenced part of the backyard. Because these trees are there. Because the trees are there, and they have all knobbly roots in the ground,

and they're dropping all these figs, and they basically... It's just, like, moist, and we have a giant scuppernong grapevine that, of course, we've eaten all of those grapes, because they're delicious, and we have a bunch of other fruit-producing stuff in our yard that is yummy and good and worth it, but these trees are just taking up the space that the kids could play in.

How old are your kids? One is four and a half, and then the other one is about to be eight months old. Oh, okay, yeah. So they want a place to play, and you're a little concerned that they're gonna slip on a turkey brown and hit their head, but knock it open on a knobbly root?

They just won't even go in. I mean, it's not even my concern. I try to encourage them to go in there, and they just won't even go in there because that's how overgrown it is. They sound like scary haunted trees, and I believe- It is. Yeah, and I believe... It is. Yeah, and I believe you actually have them

decorated for Halloween, is that correct? No. Oh, well do you have some decorations you wanted to share with us, some evidence? Yeah, that's all right. This is your house? Terrifying. Oh.

That's right. That looks, so let the record show and we'll share these images on the show page of Maxmanfun.org and on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. You have a scary giant what looks like a cat skeleton or something red skeleton. It's like a devil skeleton. Devil skeleton. It's got goat horns. That's what the... Okay, so what is the point of this evidence other than to show off to your neighbors? So Steph... It looks good.

It looks like you've built a graveyard out of packing pallets. Yeah, I'll just say so I don't being it we met we're environmentalists we met through environmentalism I don't want to just cut down these trees and not replace them with anything I don't think I can in good conscience cut down these trees and not plant new trees in their place, global warming, blah blah blah. Sure. So... I've read the Paris Treaty. Exactly. I understand your language. I'm so tired of environmentalists telling me

global warming, blah blah blah. LAUGHTER Exactly. Exactly. So I want to plant two new trees, and they can be any, any like fruit tree that you want in the front yard so that the kids can play in the backyard and we get rid of the brown turkey figs and actually have something that is yummy and tasty that, you know, I would actually want to like pick and eat.

Have you considered cutting just one down so the other would feel bad and threatened and lonely? It's not enough. It's kind of a good both. They got to go. It's really small back there and, you know, David is worried. We do this, we do a different display every year and that's how we attract trick-or-treaters and so this is the one for this year. And you could say.

So why are we looking though at your front yard when the issue is your haunted backyard? So the figs are, we have a very small kind of side yard, which is where the fig trees are. Okay. And Steph does not want to plant trees there because she wants to have that space open. And the only other place to plant them

would be in the front yard obstructing our palette, so to say, for our Halloween art. Our Halloween display thing. On either side of that display is power lines, so if we planted a tree underneath either of those lines, that would be a problem eventually. So we're talking about no trees in the front yard at all. I think it would be hard. And, you know, maybe it could be worked out. But my proposition is like, why not just plant more trees and keep trees?

Like, more trees. Not, not spurned. Kill the trees. Kill the trees. Kill the trees. Sorry. Kill the trees! So, so... So what is your proposition exactly? How would you want me to rule if I were to rule in your favor?

More trees? I don't cut down the fig trees and plant fruit trees also. Where? You know... The backyard is... But it's like we got more... The backyard is already a crowded terror escape, according to Steph.

I mean, like... I don't know. And then where would your children play? Here in the front yard? Amidst the skeletons? I mean, they do. Right in the front... Anywhere that they can kick a ball right into the street

and chase after it, like in a Stephen King book? If we found an understory tree, there's a huge tree that's off to the side in this picture. And so something that would do okay with like a little bit of shade, maybe we could make work. So we just have to find the right thing that he is amenable to. That's my belief. How long have you?

And also what is art without constraints, right? If we have the new tree. If we have the new tree, then we just work that into the Halloween. David, how would you feel if I were to order these trees be destroyed? I'd feel bummed to see these fine trees doing their best to make us march to their execution. It would break my heart to have to cut them down because I know I'd have to do it. Are you saying these trees can walk around?

HADERMANN Proverbially, you know. Because that would change my opinion dramatically. These trees could be marched anywhere. I would be a little concerned for you. Judge Hodgman, proverbially, as in the proverb of the walking trees. I was just gonna say, I know I'd have to be the one to cut them down and I'd have a pretty heart, it would break my heart to slay my trees.

Steph, why would you make your husband do your dirty work? Well, the only, I mean we could wait to do it. The only reason why... Till when? He might, he might feel like he would have to do it. Like, I'm glad to do it. It's just that the reason why he does most of the, like, getting the fruit and the gardening right now is because I am breastfeeding our child. So that's right.

I heard from the audience. And still not as big an applause line as constraints upon art. You need an editor. You need to know the rules before you can break them. But you agree. I mean, that... But so, I'm breastfeeding the kid. You could alternate between breastfeeding and cutting down the tree. I'm glad to do the work in terms of taking down the trees. Just have to find the right time and then

the right time to plant it. But I will need his help because of just the division of labor. And that is part of my dispute, because if you're feeling compelled to harvest all these figs. How long does it take to cut down a fig tree? And filling up the freezer with all the figs. 18 months? Are these trees big enough that it would be safe for you

to cut down the tree yourselves? And who's gonna get all of those roots out of the ground? It's gonna be hard. Have you consulted an arborist or someone with expertise in the brown turkey fig trees of North Carolina? We need to do that. We need to do that. I think I've heard and seen enough in order to make my decision.

I'm going to retire my chambers. I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Steph, how are you feeling about your chances? I don't know. I never thought in a billion years that anyone supporting me would be yelling kill. I mean, all of the neighbors, I've

talked a big game about fighting with this developer about the tree that I saved for a few days. So this is very not on brand for me. So that's how bad the trees are, I don't know. This is shady. This is like those shady carbon offsets I read about in The New Yorker, isn't it? Yeah, I don't know. David, how are you feeling?

I mean, Steph is very compelling always. So I'm stealing myself to mourn my trees, you know. Trees are supposed to bury their man. A man's not supposed to bury their trees. ["The Man Who Buried His Tree"] ["The Man Who Buried His Tree"] ["The Man Who Buried His Tree"] ["The Man Who Buried His Tree"]

["The Man Who Buried His Tree"] ["The Man Who Buried His Tree"] David, we learned earlier that Steph is a breastfeeding mother. Are you like a teacher or a first responder or anything that... I'm a nurse. Oh, well, there you go. We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. I quote, My kids are starting to notice I'm a little different from the other dads. Why don't you have a straight job like everyone else? I told them this story. In the forest there was a crooked tree and a straight tree. Every day the straight tree would say to the crooked one, Look at me. I'm tall and I'm straight and I'm handsome. Look at you. You're all crooked and bent over. No one wants to look at you.

And they grew up in a forest together, and then one day the loggers came, and they saw the crooked tree and the straight tree, and they said, Just cut the straight trees. Leave the rest. So the loggers turned all the straight trees into lumber and toothpicks and paper, and the crooked tree is still there,

growing stronger and stranger every day. End quote, Tom Waits. ["The Greatest Showman"] ["The Greatest Showman"] ["The Greatest Showman"] A lot of wisdom in that old flugelhorn being played underwater. But now we get to you. The parable of the straight and crooked tree. Obviously your backyard is imperfect.

And I appreciate the fact that you care enough about your children to want to save them from slipping on a fig. And then getting, you know, cracking their head open so the tree can finally feed on them. Obviously, David is here. He speaks for the trees. He's made some sick pact with these trees. He values them deeply, more even than his own children. Only you are there to protect them, Steph.

Whereas David, I think, is watching from the back window, hearing them whisper. It happens probably every other night, right? You find him in the kitchen, standing at the window, 3 a.m. Who are you talking to, David? No one, no one. Just listening to a podcast. He's not listening to a podcast. Those are the figs. We're on the eve of Halloween as we record this right now and I'm scared. I'm scared for your family, scared for your house. Obviously, whatever is behind your house is more terrifying than what you have in front of your

house. You couldn't even take a picture of it. Why not? Did the trees tell you not to? They didn't ask for it? They didn't ask for that. I was, I didn't want to upset the podcast gods or whatever. So I... I'm glad we're all on the same druidic page here. Second biggest applause is at night. I have a picture I took in my phone. All right. Let me see the picture on your phone.

But it's out there. It's out there? It's, well, it's off stage. Your phone is off stage? Yeah. Can I please, Laura, can we get the phone? Thank you, by the way, for commandeering every phone from every lit again.

I trust you're sorting through the best pictures of the trees that you have? I've got to go back and, and. It's funny. I took all these pictures of the backyard and there are no trees. Okay. The trees are only in her mind. Here it is.

Here they are. Let me see. So as you can see on the left side of the photo is a scuppernong grapevine that has just gone way out of control and is bigger than either of those trees will be. Jesse, this looks like nothing to me. This is madness, right? That's madness back there.

Yeah, there's a lot of leaves. You might need me to tell you. Yeah. It's so bad that there's nothing. Where can the children play in that? It's an overgrown jungle back there. That's correct. Except one of the things there makes yummy food,

and one of them doesn't. Without the grapevine, Judge Hodgman, how will the children make wine? Well, it's not... Okay, it's now obvious to me that as your husband's mind is imprisoned by the trees, so the vine speaks to you. It's a very delicate emotional ecosystem back there. The two of you as a married couple with young children are still working. It's a

manifestation of your own marital psychological battles back there. No wonder there's no room for your kids to play. You've got, here's my ruling. Kill the, no don't kill the trees. I think that there needs to be something that happens back there before those trees die. Which is to say, there is no room for your kids to play but I no longer blame the trees because it's overgrown. You need to get out there, I mean, between nursing and nursing,

you need to find some time to get out there and trim back this stuff. You need to consult, you should consult with an arborist or someone else to say, how can we make these trees a little less intrusive? I don't believe in just lopping down trees when your real problem is pruning. I think you ought to give them some,

I think you have to give them one chance to live. Give these trees one chance to live, Steph. And David, you love these trees so much, you better be picking up those turkey browns every day. Keep your kids from slipping in them. No, just throw them away. They're garbage. Part of the problem is the amount of time

that he spends on getting every good one and the bad one. Oh, oh, oh. David, David, there are no good ones. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge Sean Hodgman rules. Steph, David, thanks for joining us on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast. Hey, Bailiff Jesse and Durham, North Carolina. We have more justice to dispense.

It's time for what we call swift justice, correct? Yeah, I mean, what I'm thinking, and if this is okay with you, Durham, North Carolina, is we'll put 15 minutes up on the clock and we'll see how much justice we can get sorted in that brief amount of time. My hope is that by the end of that 15 minutes, Yeah. there will no longer be any problems in the entire research triangle.

I think that's probably true. Or at least, Raleigh and Durham and maybe Chapel Hill fends for itself. It's about time. It's about time. Don't even know what that means. Why don't we bring out the first litigants for Swift Justice? Put 15 minutes on the clock. We'll bring out those first litigants

when you're ready, Jesse. Please welcome to the stage, Lauren and Jeff. Lauren and Jeff, please. Lauren and Jeff both work in tech, but Jeff is a lifelong musician. Lauren is part of a program where she learns primitive skills. Wow. Okay, primitive skills. Wow.

Okay. Primitive skills. Put a pin in that. Jeff, quick question. Do you have a 90s cover band? I do. Yeah, I thought so. What's the name of it?

120 Minutes. And actually there's two of them. I'm not here to buzz mark it. Wait a minute. You have two 90s cover bands? Sort of, yes. Hey, has anyone in Durham ever heard the term, art needs constraints? Primitive skills, Lauren, what does that mean? What are the primitive skills you're learning?

Like, have you ever started a fire with a bow drill? Nope. Okay. Or... Have you? Yes, I have. Oh. Can you go to Stephen David's backyard? I can't. Sounds like there's not enough room to do that.

What if you were to live in their backyard? Could you think you could live back there for a week? I would love to do that. I think it would be very dangerous, opossum and so forth. What else? What are the primitive skills? I learned how to tan a hide, a deer hide. Whoa. What are you planning? What? Do you have some information about something that's going to happen? how to tan a hide, a deer hide. Whoa, what are you planning?

What, do you have some information about something that's going to happen? I'm kind of wondering if that's just day to day life in the research triangle. With our fig trees. Yeah, we there's this whole side of that that like are into survivalist things, but there's a side that's more into like herbalism and natural. Right, who brings, who seeks justice in this court? I do. And what is the nature of the justice you seek? So our relationship could have started

three years earlier than it did. I see. We met at a tech event. I offered to help him find a job in tech and exchange numbers. Now what do you mean? You met, but your relationship didn't start for three years, explain.

Yes, so we texted back and forth. I really was trying to help him find a job. He found a job on his own, Accord, and I said, oh, we should get celebratory drinks. And then text kind of fell cold. So we actually started dating about a year and a half ago, and this incident, of course, comes up. And I find that he's thinking I flaked on these text messages.

You say that the text went cold. I have a copy of the text here. Thank you, Laura. Let's see here. Lauren, would you please read the Lauren part? Sure. This is a text that you sent to Jeff. Yes, four and a half years ago.

Four and a half years ago. Wine or whiskey, we can make a game time decision. No Monty for me, spent too much time indoors today and need some nature. Next week's a bit crazier than usual, but Thursday and Friday look good. I'll let you know. Looking forward to hearing about day one. Hands up emoji. Hands up emoji.

You sent that, and what did you reply? Go ahead, Jeff, read the part that says Jeff. Wine was presumptuous of me, perhaps. Whiskey, gin, gosu, darjeeling, whatever you so desire. It is a gorgeous night. Enjoy your envied nature time. Friday I'm out of town. Moon emoji, tree emoji. Oh, yes. out of town. Moon emoji, tree emoji.

Oh, yes. It's true, moon emoji, tree emoji. Friday, I'm out of town, FYI. I look forward to meeting up. And did you ever meet up? Let the records show that they did not ever meet up. Why didn't you meet up? That was such an adorable text, cute.

Shrug from Lauren. Arguably the ball was in your court, Jeff, was last to text. So what happened? Right, the additional context was that at this networking event, I was the one to approach him. I actually recognized him from bartending four years prior to that.

Long story. This is a very involved timeline. Right, yeah. I just knew him as like the cute bartender. But anyway, I went up and offered to help, you know, him find a job. Yeah. And he's like, okay, cool. So we exchanged numbers. So I'm already not knowing if this is like a professional thing. Like I'm hitting on him, but I'm trying not to make it look like I am, you know. So I was forward. And then I was the one to offer the drink thing too. Like, ooh, let's have. Right, so that's what led up to this text exchange.

Right. So how did it go cold, Lauren? Well, in my mind, I already was forward twice, and I was just kind of waiting for him to be like, I really want to go out with you. Right. Yeah. So you offered a couple, you said maybe, next week is a bit crazier, Thursday and Friday look good.

You said Friday I'm out of town, look forward to meeting up, but you never settled on a date, and you feel that it was his obligation to settle on a date. Because Thursday, I was free, clearly. See, say that again, please. Thursday, I was free, clearly. Thursday, yeah, exactly. So why didn't you follow up? So to me, the most important sentence there

is toward the end of hers. That says, she says, I'll let you know. Right. And she's right. One sentence there is toward the end of hers that says, she says, I'll let you know. Right. And she's right. To me, Jeff, it's moon emoji, tree emoji. It represents envied nature time. Just give me one quick sentence.

Why didn't you follow up, Jeff? I felt it was borderline obnoxious to reach out to her again based on the semi, the possible professional flavor of this dynamic. I had a huge crush on her and absolutely wanted to. I'm sure I reread those texts eight times and tried to come up with a good reason that I could text her where it wouldn't be, to me, a little bit off taste. This just sounds like, you know, a run-of-the-mill tragedy miscommunication.

And Lauren, what would you have me rule? I don't understand. What's the deal here? What do you want me to do? Yeah, so I would just like some... Do you want me to shame him for not texting you? No, no, no, just the acknowledgement. So now when it comes up and we, like, mention it to friends and stuff too,

Jeff is like, well, it's in her court. It wasn't my fault at all. I'm like, well, you, you also could have like said something. If you really wanted to go out, you could be like, hey, what's up? And just follow it up. Lauren, it's the past. It's gone. What do you want for the future now that you have him here?

To not say that it's all my fault that that that we didn't date three years ago. Is that what you say? It's all her fault? I wouldn't phrase it that way. Is that what you say? It's all her fault? I wouldn't phrase it that way. How would you phrase it? It's not really a fault. It's that when the story comes up, she uses the phrase something like she said tonight where the texts went cold. And I remember feeling how eager I was to have a date with her

and that she didn't reach out to me. And I, you know, reading those over and over again, I decided that if she were interested, she would have re- It's the past! What do I have to tell both of you? You're together now, it's the past. That's true, yeah. She's giving you a lifeline,

she says the text went cold, passive voice. She's not even putting the blame on you, even though she obviously does blame you. Just a rephrasing, just even the tone of the way that we tell. I mean, it's a story about kind of how we didn't. Yeah. From now on, from now on, you just say, it's unfortunate. We could have had so much time together.

But in this case, we both figged up. That's what you say from now on. Get out of here, you crazy. Thank you, Lauren and Jeff. Please welcome to the stage, John and Matt. A lot of nerve coming into my courtroom being that conventionally attractive. John and Matt have been friends

since their kids were in daycare. John and Matt. They both spend a lot of time with each other and their kids at youth sports events. John and Matt, welcome. Sports events bond you. Kids, youth sports. Yes and their kids at youth sports events. John and Matt, welcome. Sports events bond you. Kids, youth sports. Yes.

Your kids' sports. Correct. Your kids play sports together. Correct. What's the sports? Basketball and soccer. Basketball and soccer. Two of the great ball games, Jesse.

Absolutely. That's right. Okay, so. Both involve balls. That's right. Who brings, who seeks justice in my court? I do, your honor. And you are?

John. John, what is the nature of the justice that you seek? Well, not only do we go to these sporting events, but last summer we did a couple stints coaching, volunteer-wise. Matt was the head coach. I was the assistant coach. OK. It was a difficult basketball season.

Power struggle. Should have been you. True. I understand. So our kids, they were six at the time last summer when they were playing basketball. There was a very difficult season. Somehow we made it to the championship game.

Wow. And somehow. Really, the kids did. Well, you know, it was a team effort. That's true. And you were the coaches, I guess that was true. I was the assistant coach. Yeah, I forgot for a moment.

I thought you were just intrusive parents. Okay, got it. We were in the championship game. The kids played well and we ended up being up by two points with 45 seconds left in the game. This is exciting. Yes, so Matt, as the head coach, kind of directed what would happen.

He had the ball inbounded to his son. Before the play happened, he said, "'All you need to do is dribble around for 45 seconds "'and you win and we go get ice cream.'" This is what Matt, head coach, all you need to do is dribble around for 45 seconds, and you win, and we go get ice cream. This is what Matt, head coach, said to his own son. Yes. Right. He gave the ball to his son. Yes.

Conflict of interest. So his son, who is fantastic, proceeded to dribble as quickly as possible down the court. Shoot, miss, the other team got the ball. I'm enjoying this, Jesse, because you know, basketball is my favorite sport. Well, you love the way they dribble up and down the court. Yeah, that's true. It's true.

The other team got the ball, came back, scored. It was a tie. Since it was the championship game, they made us play an overtime round. And the other team... I've read about it. The other team scored one and our team basically ended up crying at the end of the season. I don't bring this up to blame... When it should have been the other children crying.

Laughter Builds character they say, builds character. So you're saying that Matt blew it as head coach? No, I don't. You lost the game. We did. Buck stops there. No, and here's why.

Okay. So I brought this case to you because since then, Matt continues to carry a lot of guilt himself for his game time decision. I don't think it's necessarily healthy to carry that forward. Also as we keep... Let the record show that Matt is pondering his guilt so heavily right now that he cannot speak. I was waiting for my turn, but I'm happy to speak up.

I appreciate that. That's some good head coach material. Can I say for starters, my goal for the season was for the kids to love basketball and want to play another season. And your secondary goal was to teach them to use up 45 seconds of the 24 second clock in order to deaden the ball and end the game.

There's no shot clock in this league, you can do that. And so ending the season with the team in tears was counter to my goal for the season. And why I beat myself up over the decision because my son who's loved basketball, his third word was basketball, his third word was basketball. His mama, dada, basketball. But his go to move.

Mama, dada, basketball? I know, this is North Carolina. That's a lot. And so, but one thing he's very good at is dribbling around without purpose and not shooting. So I was like, this is great. This is how we're gonna win. And I've realized as soon as it happened,

any parent here can attest The one person the kids least likely to listen to is their own parent and I should have picked any other kid on the team and they would have listened to me and at least the kids I Was in charge of wouldn't have been crying and I still think about that So you're carrying the guilt because you put it on your son And I think any other child I would have given it to And I think any other child I would have given it to would have listened. Would have done what you asked. Yes. And then again, the kids I was responsible for maybe would have still liked basketball. When did this happen?

A year ago. A year ago. And John? Yes. What would you have me rule? Well, I think Matt needs to let it go. He tends to, since then our boys have continued to play sports together. Every game he brings up this decision that he made at some point. So it's a weekly occurrence. You bring it up in front of the team?

No, no, no. We're no longer coaching. Oh, OK. The kids are away from us. And it's just the two of us. I don't want to make my kid feel bad about what he did. Oh, but you're but you're still processing it with your friend. Yes. Yes. I understand. Right. You're bored of it. No, not at all.

I don't think it's very healthy, but also, if he tends to go in for some self-deprecation, the door is open and I kind of go as well. So it's kind of negative for both of us. I want to point out, that is a decision that you have made. Wait, when he starts self-deprecating, then you deprecate yourself? No, I deprecate outwards towards him.

Yeah. Pardon my French. Matt, you are allowed to speak. There are two I's in the word litigants. Do you think you can let this go? So what I- Feels like you should. What I would like is,

I want John to feel the responsibility of not making a team of six-year-olds end the season crying. You want him to feel the responsibility of not making children cry? Yes, I want him to head coach and feel what it feels like, to feel the pressure of having the team play and not end up in tears.

Do you think that it, have you resisted becoming head coach, John? I did my stint, and I would like to just watch the sports from now on. Why is it important to you, Matt, that he suffer in this way? He says he did his stint. As the assistant coach, I wanted to feel the pressure of the head coach and why I feel the guilt.

Why? To understand the guilt I feel. All of this is optional. You know, I've never been... I've been to two sports games in my life. I live a full life. Well, you haven't been to a sports games in my life. I live a full life. Well, you haven't been to a six-year-old basketball game. Matt and John, hey.

No, I'm not a weirdo. What if I did? What if I showed up at a six-year-old basketball game without a child involved? That wouldn't be good. This isn't about, but this isn't about John. This is about you, Matt. You're trying to inflict something on John, but you need to process this and let it go.

What happened happened. You learned from it, right? You got to get up off the bench and get back in the game. Be a goldfish at other cliches from television. You understand what I'm talking about, right? He's got to let it go. I agree. Okay. Can you let it go?

I will try to let it go. Let me ask. Let me ask. Let me ask because, you know, Luther, is one of these people your dad? That one? OK. So hypothetically, let's say something were to happen here tonight.

If you had to pick a new dad, which of these two guys? Which? Just put, just point, close your eyes. Cover your eyes. Cover your eyes. Hang on, hang on. Don't do anything. Okay, Luther, when I put my hand over the head of your new dad, raise your hand, okay?

Don't stop pointing now, because literally he's just in there pointing like this. And it feels like he's pointing at me and it's getting scary. So Luther, get ready to raise your hand when you see your new dad. Okay, don't say anything. No one applaud or anything. I just want to know. Hey, guess what, you guys? Luther doesn't want either of you. The child has judged well. You're both good dads to your own children,

but, Matt, you got to let it go. Thank you, John and Matt. Let's welcome to the stage, Hannah and Ian. Hannah and Ian are engaged and in the process of moving in together. She works in Health and Human Services. Ian owns a music school. Ian, do you have a 90s cover band? Uh, no.

Oh, okay. Good. You both have really good laughs and they're good Halloween laughs. Hannah and Ian, welcome to my court. Who seeks justice here? I do. Hannah, what is the nature of your complaint? So for as long as I can remember, I have brushed my teeth in bed. And I know... Wow.

Highly transgressive. I know it's controversial and I know it's not for everyone. Highly transgressive. I know it's controversial and I know it's not for everyone, but it really doesn't affect anyone but me. And so since Ian and I have gotten together, he has outlawed this practice. And any time I do it, he'll run into the bedroom and demand that I immediately get up and go to the bathroom to finish brushing my teeth. And I really just want to be able to brush my teeth in peace. Not only in peace but under the covers.

Which is the most peaceful way to brush your teeth. It says here, Ian, that I should ask you why you disagree with this practice, but let's skip that. Okay. Let me clarify. You are engaged. Yes. When did you become engaged? On the 9th of July of this year.

Oh, well, that's very nice. Congratulations. Thank you. And it says that you are in the process of moving in together. So how many nights a week are you sleeping over? Most nights. We're trying to get my house ready so that we can move fully. So mostly I'm at Ian's and then occasionally I have to go back. So you're trying to get your house ready so that we can move fully. So mostly I'm at Ian's and then occasionally I have to go back. So you're trying to get your house ready for the two of you to live in?

No, no. So what's going to happen? Who's going to move in with whom? Oh, right. Sorry. So we're going to sell my house and then buy a bigger house. OK. Yeah. In the future? In the future. So you're brushing your teeth at home alone with your dog in the laundry basket,

having a grand old time Yeah, then when you come over to stay over at his house or he comes over to your house either way He's like you can't brush your teeth. I'm mostly I mostly get it. I I Remiss in not asking how do you do this? Well, what's the process when I'm at at my house, yeah, I just keep my... Where, by the way, you can do whatever you want. Thank you. That's why you have your own place. Exactly. So I just keep my toothbrush next to the bed. Excuse me. This is her house in Northgate Park. It's hers. It's her life. Cultivate your own fig trees, weirdos.

And I have a little cup that I spit into, and it's lovely. The audience hates it, obviously. But you know what? I'm alone and Lunda doesn't care. But when I'm at Ian's house, I don't do that. I'm not asking to do that. It's just occasionally I'm very tired or my feet hurt or I just don't feel like it and I would like And there just happens to be a toothbrush on the bedside table. And you have your fluoride spittoon handy. No, when I'm at his house I don't have the cup because of the rule.

This is a great way to start a marriage. Because of the rule. Certain things I can't do in my marriage because of the rule. So I just go back to the bathroom to spit out the toothpaste. But you still are brushing in bed. Right. Occasionally. Wait a minute.

Where do you put the toothpaste on? In the bathroom. Okay. So you prime it In the bathroom. Okay, so you prime it in the bathroom, then you get over, you put the toothbrush with the toothpaste on it gently down in your nightstand, you get in, pull up the covers, then go brushy, brushy, brushy, and then you go... No, I... Go ahead, Ian. Well, it should be noted that it's an electric toothbrush. Okay. So, um, it is, there is a, you know, a sound coming from the bedroom.

Right. And I'm down the hall going, hmm, what could that be? Ian, you're out there in the, you're out there in the hall there, and you're hearing that sound. What are you, what are you saying to yourself? You're saying like a sort of a hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Hmm, Judge Hodgman, let the record reflect that when he's out there in the hall, he's saying a hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Uh, Ian, you love Hannah, right? Very much so. Yeah. But this grosses you out?

What's the story? Have you asked her, have you explained to her why you don't like this? I mean, this is not typical. That's true. But that doesn't mean that it's illegal. Ha ha ha ha. So have you tried explaining to her how that makes you feel? Yes. All right. And it is.

Do a reenactment of that please. When I find you in the bed with a mouth full of toothpaste. Ha ha ha ha. Finishing an article before you go back to the bathroom It makes me think you could have done that in the bathroom This is my point. He doesn't have any feelings about it. It doesn't harm him Anyway, he just doesn't want me to do it because he feels like it's wrong, which clearly everyone else feels too But I don't think that's a good enough reason to...

I have to say, Ian, that essentially the argument that you just made to the woman that you love is that I have a system for brushing teeth. Most people have it. You should. Exactly. Not when I find you brushing your teeth in bed. It makes me feel... Yeah! It makes me feel...

Yeah! It makes me feel concerned. That I will find... No, let me say this. Here's the deal. Moving in together is hard because you're obviously, you're not only joining lives together and possessions and a sense of ownership over both the things in your house and the procedures in your house. But then you're gonna get together into a bed and it's not just you're gonna have hugging and kissing time there.

It's also gonna be snoring and farting time and it's gross. Now I hope that you finally buy one of those famous houses that you can get here in North Carolina, which have two separate villas with California king-sized beds and each of them separated by a reflecting pool and you can visit each other from time to time. Then you could brush your teeth forever in your bed over there. But there are going to have to be concessions that are made in terms of how, you know, sleep hygiene and what, you know, this is the most, supposed to be the most intimate, personally intimate. Like you sleep together, but you always sleep alone.

So it is both couples intimate, but also it has to be a peaceful retreat for you. And if that is, if something one of you is doing that is violating the peace of the other, then that's something, a place where you have to compromise. But here's the thing. I don't see that you should do anything until Ian is able to tell you how he feels about it. More than just I'm concerned.

I need you to search yourself and the moment that you can explain to her in a compelling way how you feel about it, then I would advise you to change your routine. If it is a meaningful... Do you want to try it again? Yes. We'll see. When I find you...

brushing your teeth in bed, I occasionally also feel maybe a tooth plus tube in the bed or something like that. What? Judge Hodgman, let the record reflect that he said, when I find you brushing your teeth in bed, I...no, no, no. Oh, sorry. Yeah. You have a pretty low voice,

and it went down into... Sorry. Yeah. I feel... Well, good luck to you, Ian. Yeah. Thank you. You can try that offstage. Thank you, Hannah and Ian. That's it for this episode of the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Our thanks to Reddit user tolive and Brian in LA for naming the case in this episode.

Make sure to follow us on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgman. We're on YouTube and TikTok. And we'll see you next time. to Liv and Brian in LA for naming the case in this episode. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgman. We're on YouTube and TikTok at JudgeJohnHodgmanPod. And also thank you over there on Apple Podcasts to Slim2City for your review. Slim2City said that JJ Ho is guilty of being great, which is wonderful. This podcast says Slim2City is a sandwich of delights, unlike Odd Dog.

Delights, insights, and entertainment. The rulings are thoughtful and humorous. The whole crew is a wonderful combination of whimsical, warm, and wonderful people. That's the three W's. Always a release day listen with extra mayo and a bag of chips. Weird Dad out. Thank you so much weird dad slim to city I love seeing those reviews and I love it when you go and leave them over there at Apple podcasts or wherever you might listen

To your podcast especially podcast users don't feel left out You can start rating our show now and you can also just share one of our YouTube episodes with a friend Or save and share our Instagram posts hitting all those little buttons the hearts the thumbs ups the likes leaving comments Sharing things to people texting it to your friends All these things are really really helpful and getting people to discover the show We're really very grateful and even if you just go to a friend of yours or a family member and say with your own mouth Hey, I listened to a podcast called judge John OJ man. That's really helpful, too So thank you very much

And by the way, if you've got someone who's really helpful too. So thank you very much. And by the way, if you've got someone who's not familiar with the show and you wanna introduce them to it, no better way than bringing them to one of our live shows. Remember our schedule of the road court shows is up now at maximumfund.org slash events. The Judge John Hodgman podcast was created

by John Hodgman and Jesse Thorne. Our touring producer was Laura Volk. This episode was recorded by Stephen Colon. Nattie Lopez is our social media manager. AJ McKeon, our podcast editor. Daniel Spear is our video editor and our producer is Jennifer Marmer. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. BANG BANG BANG