Judge John Hodgman - Waffle House Arrest

Episode Date: August 16, 2018

Shenlyn brings the case against her husband, Martin. Shenlyn loves to go out for breakfast with family and friends, but Martin prefers breakfast at home. He thinks that he can cook breakfast at home better and for less money. She wishes he would participate in her breakfast outings. With Guest Bailiff Maeve Higgins! Thank you to Gavin Pouliot for naming this week's case! To suggest a title for a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Maeve Higgins filling in for Jesse Thorne. This week, Waffle House arrest. Shenlyn brings the case against her husband Martin. Shenlyn loves to go out for breakfast with family and friends but Martin prefers breakfast at home. He thinks that he can cook breakfast at home better and for less money. She wishes he would participate in her breakfast outings. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Every one of my podcasts means something. The network, the producer, the year it was made, who was copying whose style, who's expanding on that. Don't you understand? When I listen to my podcasts, they take me back to certain points in my life, okay? Just don't touch my podcasts ever. You, the first time I met you, Modell Sisters High School graduation party, right? 2011. And Judge John Hodgman was playing when I walked in the door. Guest bailiff Maeve Higgins, please swear them in. Shenlon and Martin, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?

I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he only eats breakfast served to him in a Griswold cast iron skillet? I do. I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Shenlyn and Martin, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced when I entered the courtroom? Shenlyn, let's start with you. For some reason, I imagine John Cusack saying it. And I am not familiar with much of his work.

So I don't really have a guess on which movie it would be. John Cusack saying something. I'm going to put that into the guest book. A highly intuitive guess. The risk of giving Martin information. You're close. Good to know. I guess I just delivered it very Cusack-y.

I think so. All right. Maybe that's an error on my part. Martin, what's your guess? I think so. All right. Maybe that's an error on my part. Martin, what's your guess? Opening lines from a famous song written by one of New England's most legendary jazz quintets, Night and Day.

Their song, Breakfast in Bed. That's my guess. Whoa. That is some profoundly high level deep cut pandering because martin is making reference to the fact that i am recording right now in judge john hodgman's summertime chambers w-e-r-u in orland maine 89.9 FM, where I am always joined by our guest producer and local DJ and bass playing legend, Joel Mann. Hello, Joel. Good afternoon, Judge.

Do I guess correctly that Martin is making reference to your jazz combo that plays at the Pentagoet Inn every Tuesday evening? One can only hope. But that's right. That's Night and day, isn't it? That's night and day. Night and day. And what was the name of the song that he referenced? Breakfast in Bed? Yes. Never heard of it. No. I thought Martin was maybe like really deep into your back catalog. Martin, that's pretty advanced. I got to tell you, I got to give you credit for that. I'm almost about to rule in your favor. But guesses are wrong i was in fact quoting with

some liberties uh from a famous line from the movie diner by barry levinson specifically daniel stern's monologue about how his wife should never touch his records uh defending the sanctity of his record collection it is essentially the quintessential uh portrayal of controlling husband who has a system something that we have some familiarity with here on the judge john hodgen podcast and of course a lot of it takes place in a diner hence the name of the movie and we're talking about going out for breakfast here but before we go out for breakfast together which is something all humans love to do, except for Martin, apparently. I will say hello, not only to Joel Mann, who is a special guest this episode.

Hello, Joel. Hello, Judge. And as well to our guest, Bailiff. She's back again, the wonderful Maeve Higgins. Hello, Maeve. Good morning, John. Get it? Because it's breakfast.

I would like to give a shout out to those of you who were listening last week. Maeve made a joke, which was one of the greatest weird dad jokes of all time. It went unheralded in its moment. It was not a weird dad joke. It was just a Maeve Higgins joke. We were talking about a movie that was directed by Vim Vendors. And she said to the litigants at the end when I ruled in favor of the husband, in this case.

Saying to Colleen, what do you think, Colleen? Is this a win-win or a Vim Vendors? That made me so happy. I'm so glad to be here, though. I'm, you know, I eat breakfast. You know, I start, everybody talks about how important it is and it's something that I do. So I feel like I fit in. You know, I start, everybody talks about how important it is and something that I do.

So I feel like I fit in, you know. Folks, if you weren't listening last time and you don't know Maeve Higgins, it's a horrible mistake in your life because she's one of the loveliest comedians and storytellers and personalities. Co-hosting a really great comedy show in Brooklyn, New York, where I live most of the time called Butter Boy. Co-hosting with the great Aparna Nancherla and Joe Firestone. And she also has a terrific podcast with the former president of Ireland called Mothers of Invention and a book out right now called Maeve in America, which is available for sale anywhere you might buy a book. And I urge you to do so. We'll talk a little bit more about that later. But thanks for being back here with us again, Maeve.

Oh, thanks, John. I'm thrilled. So, Maeve, you like breakfast, right? Yeah, it's one of my favorite meals. It's like in my top three favorite meals. And Joel? Breakfast is good. Yeah, breakfast is good.

You like going out for breakfast? Yes. Where do you go out for breakfast here in the Blue Hill Peninsula? There's a little place called the Rise and Shine over in Verona Island. Oh, in Verona Island. Yeah, I'll go over there. You like going out for breakfast, right? I do. Everyone in the world likes going out for breakfast. It's one of the greatest things you can do, I'm just going to say.

One time, years and years ago, I was in Amherst, Massachusetts, visiting my friend Charles Diggs and his then-wife, and a bunch of old high school friends were all together, and we all went out Charles Diggs and his then wife and a bunch of old high school friends were all together. And we all went out for breakfast and we had a great time. And then when we came back, Pauline, who was also visiting, who was sleeping when we went out, came down.

She said, where'd you guys go? So we went to breakfast. She said, what the hell? I like breakfast. You're like, you were sleeping. She said, everyone likes going out for breakfast. You're like, you were sleeping. She said, everyone likes going out for breakfast. You should have woken me up.

But someone doesn't. Someone doesn't like going out for breakfast. Martin, obviously I'm biased here. Biased for breakfast. I should recuse myself, but I'm not going to because I'm curious, Martin. Are you an android? Are you a visitor from another planet pretending

to be a human could we get the engineer to scrape martin's skin to see if it's real yeah yeah nolan in the studios in chico california you can just reach over and do what mave says give him a little scratch i i know martin's human he's he's also a great basketball player that was nolan talking just then, Maeve? Is that correct? Yeah, that was Nolan saying that he's human. I didn't like that. He sounded a little robotic, too.

I think there are a couple of Cylons. Cylons always vouch for each other. All right. Martin, before we hear from you, Shen Lin brings this case. I want her to be able to make her case. What's the issue? You like to go out for breakfast and Martin stays home. Is this what's going on? Tell me more. Yeah. So I just, in general, like going out for breakfast as well as to breakfast places to have even something as simple as coffee and pastries. And that's typically something that I do with my family and sometimes my friends. And most of the

time it's an outing that I can invite Martin to that I would like if he came. And then also if we or I am bringing our children, it's just nice that we're like all there as a family. And I just enjoy starting my day that way. Let me clarify a couple of things. You live in Chico, California? Yes. Or thereabouts? Yes. Breakfast capital of California. Yes, that's correct. You guys are married or in a partnership of some kind? Married, yes. And you have two children?

You mentioned children? Yeah, we have two children. Our daughter is four and a half and our son is two and a half. And their names are fried egg and turkey sausage. Yeah, we fought over that, but that's what we landed on. Why would you name a child after the blight of turkey sausage?

Shemlin, you mentioned you like to go out for breakfast. How often are you going out for breakfast? And there, Chico. Like, how many days a week are you talking about? I would say at the most once a week. Okay. And once a week, and you say you go out with family, you're speaking of more than just your nuclear family. Yeah. So that's typically my mom and dad. Sometimes Martin's mom is involved. And every once in a while when we have our sisters visiting, they're obviously included.

Now, I'll tell you, if my wife were going out to breakfast with her mom or her dad and my mom is no longer living, so like, and my dad and maybe her sisters, I would totally want to stay home in any of those configurations. I'm with Martin on that one. But you're saying that when you take your children out to breakfast, sometimes Martin doesn't come out of principle? Yeah, it's kind of one of those things where if it's typically my parents are initiating that. They're like, OK, we're going to, you know, you want to come out to breakfast with us and, you know, or a coffee shop and just come join us. And it's usually like maybe either the night before or that morning they, you know, text me and send an invitation.

And it's not a special occasion. It's just kind of like, let's hang out. You know, we haven't seen you in like three days. So let's get together and enjoy coffee and pastries. Shemla, I have to interrupt you here. You're going to great lengths and prose to describe the procedure by which people invite each other to have a meal. I know that you live in a household where one person, Martin, has been gaslighting you for years, obviously, in order to trick you into thinking that maybe someone saying let's go to breakfast is a weird thing that shouldn't happen and needs to be explained. I'm trying to tell you, Shenlyn, that the reality you experience is normal. Everything's fine. Your mom, your dad says, let's go to breakfast. I get it. I understand. All humans get it. It's only Martin who acts like

this is some weird thing that is beyond human comprehension. Martin, now it is your turn. I'm going to give you a fair hearing. And here's why. One, everyone deserves one. Two, Shen Lin did say that she likes to go out for pastries. I almost threw this out right there. I do not like pastries i almost threw this out right there because i do not like pastries and i think

there is a risk here that when shenlin says breakfast something everyone wants to go out for when she said pastries started making me think maybe she's actually talking about brunch which is something no one wants and should everyone should avoid why don't you go out for a morning meal with your own family, Martin? Your Honor, I want to start by saying that breakfast never did anything bad to me. That's not the problem. I love breakfast just as any other human does.

There's a couple issues that I have that keeps me from going out on a regular basis with them. And that's kind of the totality of my argument is that I have about five different angles I'm working with here. The first being... Sit tight. Sit tight, please. Stop for a second.

The first being, sit tight. Stop for a second. I want you to look at all those five angles and think to yourself, do you think maybe three is enough? I could pare it down to three. The first one is that I believe that going out to eat is a special occasion and not a regular event for a number of reasons. One, as being a young family, financially, it's sort of just unsustainable for us to be able to just kind of go out every Saturday just because it's a nice thing to do. What age are your children? Four and a half and two and a half.

Oh, so they're not working or... Not yet. You have to understand, Maeve is from Ireland. They're not sweeping chimneys in Chico, California. No, no, next year, I think. Dining out should be a special occasion. That's angle one sub angle one is because it's financially difficult correct are we still in angle one though sub angle two sorry sub angle one

part b oh no is that i could make it for a fraction of the cost at even better quality than your average breakfast joint. And I believe as Jen is shaking her head right now. Oh, so disrespectful. Joints. Okay. There's angle one. Subangle one is it's expensive. Subangle two is you can make a better breakfast at home for less money.

Correct. And I do so with, now, forgive me for pandering again, but I use cast iron pans. And I love making home-style potatoes, which Shinlan loves to enjoy. I believe that I've perfected them. And I have evidence for that that was submitted just as a picture. Yeah, we'll take a look at your evidence in just a moment. I just want to warn you, sir, that you did put the word pandering very close to the word pan. And you approached a pun pretty hard. I don't want to have any more of that. I apologize. All right. How many more angles do we have to go? Like, do I have time to get a cup of coffee? I apologize. All right. How many more angles do we have to go? Like, do I have time to get a cup of coffee and you can just roll for a while?

I'd prefer to make you coffee than go out for coffee. Oh, boy. Which brings me to my next point. Okay. Well, sorry. Go ahead. Next angle or sub angle. Is that coffee and pastries now from a health aspect?

I'm going to the health aspect now. I am not a coffee drinker. I'm a high energy guy. I get super jittery. Yeah, no one would ever mistake you for a low energy guy. I mean, it's just quick talk, quick talk, quick talk. Look, I'm from the East Coast. It's different in Chico, but I would say you're plain laconic, dude.

All right. You don't want to have coffee. You get jitters. I want you to answer honestly now. Is this health angle a serious concern of yours or are you just padding your case? Well, this is where it gets more serious. I am gluten free by necessity. And as we can all agree is the typical American breakfast is a barrage of gluten on the body.

And to me, that's, it's a little intimidating to be around. And if I am going to buy anything that's gluten free, it usually comes at an extra cost going back to sub-angle one. But your kids are little gluten monsters. They can feast on it happily. One of them is, yes. So gluten-free by medical necessity, I gather, right? Yes. Before we go to the evidence, I just want to know if there are any other lurking angles.

Yes, I have one last lurking angle. I guess I do want to tidy up one other thing is the cost factor. I am, and so is Shinlan, a very good tipper. And I know that this important piece of, I guess, testimony in this process. Let me give you a little tip sir stop pandering you already dropped a joel man reference a cast iron reference and now a reference to our famous tipping episode i get it you're a fan of the podcast believe me the fact that you know joel man's band name at the pentago at in every Tuesday night till the end of September is incredible to me.

You got all the credit you're going to get out of that. I do apologize for the opening pandering session. No, don't apologize. That was a delight. So you're a wonderful tipper. You're a great podcast listener. And to complete this thought is what? To complete this is that Shinlan is a fantastic ice cream maker.

And bear with me just for 30 seconds as I wrap up this point. She's a fantastic ice cream maker, budding entrepreneur. I would never in a million years, everybody in America loves to go out and enjoy ice cream. Who doesn't in America? Me. Why? enjoy ice cream. Who doesn't in America? Me. Why? Because I would never ask my family to go out and enjoy an ice cream experience when my wife makes delicious ice cream at home. It would be an insult. And so in that same vein, I feel as though with all of my points made, why not stay at home

when your husband makes a delicious breakfast that satisfies your needs and on special occasions yes we can go out and i believe it's totally reasonable to go out and enjoy a breakfast outing free of effort and dishes i rest my case let's take a quick recess we'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience,

one you have no choice but to embrace, because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I.

Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. trying to put the name of the podcast there yeah i'm trying to spell it but it's tricky let me give it a try okay if you need a laugh and you're on the go call s-t-o-p-p-b-a-d-i it'll never fit no it will let me try if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-b-d-c-o-o oh we are so close stop podcasting yourself a podcast podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Court is back in session. Let's get back into the courtroom to hear more about Shenlon and Martin's breakfast dispute.

That case was well made and padded out. I liked it. The crux of what you're saying is, why go out when I'm a better cook? I don't have to worry about gluten. And also, Shen Lin makes good ice cream. I couldn't follow that one because I was responding to a text because I got bored. Sorry. I'm sure it was great establishing that you're not a monster.

I got it. And you're not. I want to clarify, though. You say that going out for breakfast should be a sometime choice, a special occasion. And that going out once a week is too much. Yes. Was Shenlyn lying when she says she wants to go out for breakfast about once a week? No, she was not lying.

Okay. She wants to go out for breakfast about once a week? No, she was not lying. Okay. It's not like she's trying to sneak out, you know, social breakfasts and rope you in three times a week or four times a week. No, not at all. Like on a what? On a Saturday or Sunday, Shenlyn?

Yeah. It's usually the weekends because Martin is a teacher and he works every morning. What do you teach, Martin? I teach in Live Oak, California at an elementary school. I'm the computer teacher, kindergarten through fourth grade. Oh, cool. And Shenlyn, you are an aspiring entrepreneur. Yeah, I'm hoping to do just ice cream in the community, like at markets and maybe selling to local stores and then eventually having an ice cream shop. Fantastic. Well, I won't ask you for any of your flavors because that's IP. I don't want anyone to steal your ideas.

Okay. Thank you. But are you insulted when you guys go out for ice cream, even though you make better ice cream at home? That's also a personal dilemma because I love the ice cream shop experience. In general, I like going out to eat. I like being with friends and family and going out and having, you know, the atmosphere, the, you know, service experience and just knowing that, like, you're going somewhere where you want to go and you want to eat and enjoy that moment with someone. Yeah, I didn't hear Martin addressing that at all, that you can't recreate like the buzz and the kind of energy and the like, hey, check please, and like over here, give me a cup. You know, that's so fun. That was an amazing interpretation of an American diner lingo. You want more coffee, hon?

Oh, I'm excited. Even though that was a terrible accent. There is part of me that is feeling like maybe I'm in a diner right now. That's great. It's the place I always want to be. I mean, she's right, Martin. I mean, I'm about to look at some pictures of your food here. And I hope that I like what I see.

Because you've made a serious claim that you're making home fries better than a dude at a diner who makes home fries five hours a morning every morning of his life. Or hers. So that's a high bar. I want to take a look at your food, but how do you answer the complaint that at your home, you don't have the experience of going, you don't have an Irish woman saying check on, on all the other,

like maybe you'll run into someone. Maybe, you know, I like that waiter. I don't, that guy doesn't give me enough whipped cream or whatever. Like the fun of being out in the world a little and also not having to do the dishes and so on. You can't recreate that in your house, can you?

No. And I'm certainly not blind to this fact. And I guess my counter to that is that there are also aspects of the home experience that can't be recreated out either and we're building lifelong memories of dad making breakfast on saturday or sunday mornings playing piano for us after breakfast and then going and jumping out in our pool on a hot summer morning you don't need to recreate the home experience outside the home because you're at home. A lot. Although I'm

going to pre-rule that next time you go to the diner, offer to bring along a keyboard so you can play piano. Believe me, that will make some memories for your kids. Alright, let's go to the evidence let's take a look here let's see what you guys sent in oh look so good first of all we have evidence submitted by shenlin

including testimony from your mom shenlin yes saying i enjoy going out for breakfast with my daughter because it's a relaxing time of the morning to sit talk and share our feelings ideas and what we've been up to lately all while we are enjoying the goodies that we have chosen out of all the other food that is offered at a breakfast cafe, goodies that I would not normally have at home. Breakfast cafes also offer a wider choice of coffee types and toppings I would not have at home either. A good morning cup of coffee is such a relaxing experience that is more enjoyable spent drinking with my loved ones. Now, let me just say something.

Oh, these outings are special and memorable family times together. Your mom is adorable. Yes, she is. I now see where you get your wonderful trait of explaining what is patently obvious to all humans. Going out to breakfast with your family is fun and it's nice. These outings are special and memorable family times together. That's exactly right. She's exactly right.

Shenlyn's mom did not need to say it, but I'm glad that she did. And she sent in a photo. This is a photo of you, Shenlyn. Yes, that was at Jack's Wife Frida in New York. Oh, Jack's Wife Frida. I've been there. Yeah. Yeah.

in New York. Oh, Jack's wife's Frida. I've been there. Yeah. Yeah. My friend Brittany lives in Brooklyn and after we got back from a long trip to France,

that's where she took me for breakfast when I knew we were going to be on the show and I needed a really good evidence photo

of a delicious breakfast and it did not disappoint. I've been there and everybody was wearing a fedora. This photo and all photos, of course, will be posted to the Judge John Hodgman page on MaximumFun.org and also on our Instagram, which is at Judge John Hodgman. And in case you don't have time to go there right now to take a look, I'm just going to explain that there's a picture

of Shenlyn sitting at Jack's wife, Frida, a place in New York that does not advertise on the podcast, but we're shilling for it anyway. And she's got what looks like a fried egg on toast and a little side salad and some avocado and some cream cheese and a cup of coffee. And her hands are outstretched sort of palm up as she regards her breakfast lovingly. And I think this photo was taken in the middle of her explaining what breakfast is. Your breakfast looks great. Looks like you're having a good time. There's no photo of And I think this photo was taken in the middle of her explaining what breakfast is to the table. Breakfast looks great. Looks like you're having a good time.

There's no photo of Martin in here because I presume he was not. No, he wasn't there. Now, Martin has submitted evidence, which consists of testimony from a friend, Daniel, that I will get to in a moment. And testimony from himself, and photos of a breakfast that he has made for Shen Lin, and also photos of your home, your breakfast nook, which is a nice, clean-looking breakfast nook in a kitchen, which is a nice, clean kitchen. Setting aside, this is not an interior decor fight. This is a breakfast fight. Look at these potatoes and these eggs that Martin made. Martin says, here is an example of a typical full course breakfast.

Martin, you're the one speaking here, right, Martin? Yes. Right? This is your testimony. This is your affidavit. So when you say Martin, you're referring to yourself in the third person? Yes. Uh-huh.

Well, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. Maybe he is a robot. Yes. Well, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. Maybe he is a robot. Here is an example of a typical full course breakfast human designate Martin makes at least once a week, which illustrates why going out is undesirable and unnecessary. You, meaning me, Judge John Hodgman will notice in this picture, at the forefront are perfectly prepared homestyle potatoes seasoned with salt, coriander, fennel, and garlic. Crispy on the outside, soft and sweet in the middle.

These are those homestyle potatoes. In the background are scrambled eggs topped with a shaved aged cheddar, garden fresh basil, also used as a garnish, with balsamic reduction glaze at home. This all organic meal costs, Maeve Higgins, you want to take a guess? How much does it cost at home? $14?

At home. Oh, $13? $3. Martin's done the math. When you say garden fresh, is that basil coming from your garden? Plucked from our own garden Right, three bucks He amortized it somehow

With second helpings of potatoes Available to the human heart's content You know what? It looks good It looks good, Martin I like it The homestyle potatoes look very nicely crisped The eggs look a little overdone.

I would not put balsamic glaze on my eggs, but to each his or her or their own. Clearly, you take great pleasure and pride. And Shen Lin, the proof is in the eating, right? How are those potatoes? Are they good or what? Because they look good. They are absolutely delicious. Yeah. That looks like a meal that would be served at a restaurant. Jack's wife, Frida, you know what that would be served at a restaurant jack's wife you know what that would cost shenlin oh yeah probably 135 dollars

plus tax and tip well you're right i think probably 17 dollars you can't be dropping that cash all the time question i understand from the court documents shenlin that though you are aspiring uh ice cream uhress, you currently are at home with the kids, right? You have income coming in? Yes. And I'm also a part-time preschool teacher. Should I be sensitive to Martin's argument that this is perhaps going out to breakfast once a week is perhaps a strain on the budget of two teachers and parents? Yes, that is a valid argument and i think that is i mean obviously it's a valid argument in life right that we all have to live within our budgets but is it a valid argument in your life yes okay all right i thought he was

saying it's it costs too much money because you can't afford it but he doesn't want to but it does you're saying that it you could save some money in this area and it would probably be a good thing right yeah i think um we are conscious of how much we're spending outside of our monthly food budget and just knowing that we can make you know certain he actually broke down the number for me of how did he yes he did and i will not remember i do not remember the number uh he actually might but it was some sort of like number calculating if we went out to breakfast once how many home breakfasts we would not be able to have now why did you not present this mathematical evidence, Martin?

Were you concerned of how it might make you look and seem? I was waiting to close with that, Your Honor. Oh, all right. I'll allow it. I was wondering, like, what you were teaching these very young children about computers, and now I'm like, oh, they were feeding in the stats. Kids, kids, I have a hypothetical problem I'd like you to solve. But on the money thing, I just want to push back a little because of course all of us could save

money. Like it's hard to justify spending money on something that you could be doing at home. That's always tough, especially if you have little smallies. But the things that are hard to put a, you know, value on, like, you know, a tradition with your children or like having your children know how to, you know, dine out and, you know, meeting your family in a low pressure situation where you can leave and also you're not stuck with your family all day sticking around your home. Like there's other things that are harder to cost and so those should be taken into account as well yeah i mean absolutely and and i would say in terms of the experience that you are creating and sharing and ideally enjoying you know going to the wrong place to eat out of the house can be a real drag

if you go to a place that you have high hopes for and it turns out to be a junk hole yeah uh martin is this situation here that shenlin and her mom are picking trash holes to go to that's definitely a big part of it they're not picking trash holes uh however i as you probably can imagine based on some of my you know statements so far i'm becoming more aware that i'm a foodie i'm a little bit of a food snob and there is really only one place here in chico that i really enjoy going out to breakfast and And I'm not, again, I'm not blind to the enjoyment of going out. I love lunch and dinner because it's a much more diverse. And that's what I actually promote more is, hey, why don't we go out to lunch and dinner

later today instead? Because it's a much more diverse meal. But, and there's more options in the Chico area that I believe are really high quality foods in the lunch and dinner area but breakfast there's one place that i really enjoy but it does cost a little more it's a little bit more like the jack's wife frida sort of vibe which i enjoy go ahead and tell us the name of the jack's wife fridaida of Chico. Jack's cousin, Ashanti. It's called Roots Catering. Roots Catering in Chico. Yeah, they originally started as a catering company and then opened up their space.

And they venture a little bit away from the typical, you know, gluten fest. And they have a little bit more creativity. And like, again, there's nothing wrong. I enjoy a good pancake every now and then, but to have it regularly during the breakfast and then have the pancake coma afterwards, you know, it just kind of leaves me saying I could start my day a little bit better a different way. All right. I think something's coming into focus here and I'd like to explore it. But first of all, can you have a pancake or are you just like chomping down on it with an EpiPen in your hand? I thought you couldn't eat gluten.

You can make gluten-free ones pretty easy these days. So when you say, I enjoy a gluten-free pancake as much as anybody, what you're basically saying is, I don't like pancakes. But I mean, this might be part of the issue here because what is breakfast to you shenlin what does breakfast mean what is the food you're gonna have earlier there was that question about if i was talking about brunch and or just pastries and coffee and i should clarify as well as the testimony my mom made that um usually the places we pick for breakfast have all of it. It's like a cafe slash breakfast.

So they have like eggs scrambled, which I like, omelets, some sort of like sausage option, like maybe a side of fruit. I mean, I'm pretty much describing the American, exactly what Marv was saying he doesn't like. Which I enjoy eating. You're describing a restaurant. I was just going to say that I think Shannon, your case would be a bit stronger if you liked to eat special things to go out for breakfast. For like French toast with blueberries

or I don't even like huevos rancheros or like something a little bit different than the kind of, you know, eggs and there's like eggs and potatoes that you're so fixed on. How dare you, Maeve? Eggs and potatoes are the only thing that matter in life. Well, I can say that for my birthday this year, which is the same as Judge John Hodgman's birthday. Oh, she can pander too. All right.

I can. I've been waiting to pull that one up. I went to a place in Chico called Sin of Cortez and they do a lot of gluten-free options. And one of them, they did a strawberry and cream pancake, which was out of this world. It was really delicious to me. And so that has kind of lived on in my memory in the last two months.

What did Martin think of this strawberry and cream pancake? Or was he not there to try it because he didn't come out on your birthday because he disapproves? Well, he did not attend but Listen. There's a very good reason for it. He was actually

at home coordinating a massive surprise party. Yeah, I can't go. I gotta finish making these potatoes. Sorry, what was the excuse? He was coordinating something for you? A party or something? He was coordinating a surprise party for me, as well as coordinating child care with both our kids at home. That must have been a day of emotional lows and highs before you were having breakfast.

On your birthday, boycotted by her own husband for reasons unknown. And then you come home. He's like, surprise. Surprise. I do love you after all. I just want to get to Martin's letter from Daniel before I go to make my decision, because I feel as though I've pretty much heard what I need to. because I feel as though I've pretty much heard what I need to.

But Daniel wrote two full paragraphs about Martin's cooking. I'm beginning to feel that Daniel might be a human or he might be another one of these Cylon compatriots. It's weird that he starts, human designate Martin. His eggs are perfectly cooked with just the right amount of tenderness to the yolk. His gluten-free toast is crisp yet doughy and generously lavished with high quality butter. The greens come right from the garden, which he painstakingly cares for like his third child. His plating is highly Instagrammable, often demanding upwards of five whole minutes of everyone taking pictures

before we are ready to dive in. The condiments are abundant and perfectly... This guy should get a job writing menus for bed and breakfasts. The condiments are abundant. I like that. Teasy prepares, iced in summer, hot in winter, always result in

argument on the car ride home between my fiance and I. As she requests, I bring more to the arena in terms of being a domestic barista. I've gotten so caught up with the extravagant food, I almost forgot to mention the decor. And then we talk about your house whites and perfectly blended pastels. Compliment. This is what I wanted to get to. The immaculate cast iron cookware. Martin, I don't see any pictures of your cast iron in here.

You come to this game, drop in references to night and day, Joel Mann's jazz band in Castine, Maine. You're not even taking a picture of your cast iron to show me and try to sway me? What are you rocking in the cast iron department? What do you got? I wish that I had the cast iron, the USA cast iron, but it's a typical cast iron that you would find at a big box store

and one that's named after a notable cook. Oh, there's a TV chef who's shilling for cast iron now. He's got a brand of cast iron. Oh, is it the Italian guy? Yep. That's the one. What's his name? Emeril.

Emeril Lagasse is a cast iron brand? Hold the roll. I'm going to check it out. I don't mean to pile on, but isn't it the case that your cast iron shouldn't be immaculate? It should be kind of seasoned and messy. Yeah, they're well seasoned. Oh, they're well seasoned. Okay, so when he says immaculate, he doesn't mean like clean and new.

And what was the cast iron that you wished that you had? I'm blanking on the American brand that's kind of the gold standard for cast iron. That's kind of the gold standard for cast iron. Well, Lodge is the most common cast iron brand in the United States. Yes, Lodge, that's the one. But you know what it is. It's just cast iron. I don't care if it's got Emeril's name on it.

He's a good chef. People forget. Emeril knows what he's doing. One of the best meals I ever had was at Emeril's in New Orleans. He's good. He of the best meals I ever had was at Emeril's in New Orleans. He's good. He's a real good chef. And this material, of course, is almost the definition of a blunt instrument. It is just iron that has been cast in the shape of a pan.

And it just is raw iron and you take care of it. I guarantee you that you're cooking with something that is absolutely comparable to anything you would buy from Lodge. And this is a real aside here to this whole podcast, because I'm gradually transforming this podcast into a cast iron podcast. If you want Lodge, dude, you go out and get it, boyfriend. Just it's not expensive. I mean, I appreciate that you're both teachers, but I can't imagine that it would be more expensive than emerald although unless you got this super on sale and of course the real cast iron you want to get as i've

said time and time again as you go to a yard sale you go to a garage sale you go to a junk store or whatever and you look for the those old brands that they don't make anymore your griswolds your wagner i bet you would have out there in California, it would be a Wagner town. That's like the Midwestern, Western brand. And you get those and they're thinner and they're lighter because they make them in a different way now. And you can just strip it down and refinish it. Check out my Instagram stories to figure out how to do that. I don't get any money from that.

I don't put my name on that. The real question is, are you taking care of it well enough do you scrape off all the food and put a little bit more oil on are they well seasoned you feel good about your cast iron pans i'm i'm very good to them i think shinlin could confirm that yeah don't ever let emerald lagasse's name get in the way of your bragging on your cast iron pants. There's nothing wrong with Emeril Lagasse. And, you know, like you said earlier on that you're discovering that you're a bit of a foodie. Don't malign yourself that way.

Foodieism is a preoccupation with food as status as much as it is with food as food. It's like hipsterism where you, you know, you use the thing you love as a cudgel to prove your superiority over other people. So when hipsters are talking about bands, they're really trying to show off their taste rather than actually sharing in the enjoyment of a thing. That's what I think of foodism. Obviously, I think about food a lot. I need it to live. I enjoy it. It's what I would default want to be doing all the time. I mean, I think you and I have something in common here in that all I ever want to be doing is making eggs. It's all I ever want to be doing. I want to be making eggs right now.

Me too. You know, it's a beautiful meditative process where you are taking insane chaos and turning it into delicious order. And I'll do it, find excuses to make an egg all the time. Loving food in that way, you have to appreciate A, that that's not foodism and B, that Emeril Lagasse, I think, did almost as much as Julia Child did in her time for bringing a cognizance to good ingredients and different techniques to the home kitchen and is overall a force for good. You know, obviously he also pioneered a kind of celebrity chefdom, which can be taken to toxic extremes, right? But a lot of people who had never heard the term radicchio before

heard it first from Emeril Lagasse in the 90s, and that's good. the term radicchio before heard it first from Emeril Lagasse in the 90s, and that's good. It put pressure on our supermarkets to carry better, more quality ingredients. And ideally, it put pressure or an impetus into American households to cook more at home, which is of profound value not just to the way we live our lives and share our lives, but the way we live our lives and share our lives, but the way we treat our bodies. I think you might think you know where I'm going with my verdict in saying these things. But before I reveal my verdict, I'll leave you in suspense and say, I'm now going to go into my Emeril Lagasse branded cast iron chambers to think this over. I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Shenlyn, how are you feeling? I think surely that last bit was a blow for you or what do you think? Yeah, that caught me off guard. But up until that point, I was feeling pretty good about my case. And I actually was going to thank you. I think you made a lot of points for me. Inadvertently, I don't know. But in general, I think it's kind of a hard case to make for Martin, but I feel like he presented it well. Martin, how are you feeling about the case? You know, I'm kind of torn about it as general listening of the case, but I feel like I've been reasonable and I don't want to come across like I hate breakfast or I hate going out. I love my family. I love Shin's parents. It's, you know, I think

that the judge has heard where I'm coming from, and I'm hoping that there's a well-rounded, very You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made

In pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs. They're Made In, Made In. The Rohan duck. Made In, Made In. Riders of Rohan, duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop?

You got it. Maiden. Maiden. Maiden has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years. They make the stuff that chefs need. Their carbon steel cookware is the best of cast iron, the best of stainless clad. It gets super hot. It's rugged enough for grills or an open flame. One of the most useful pans you can own. And like we said, good enough for real professional chefs, the best professional chefs. Oh, so I have to go all the way down to the restaurant district

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Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a sound to happen. Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations, and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world, and you get to hear this sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird,

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when we return in just a moment. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. First of all, I had some scrapple while thinking this over. I make scrapple really well. If you guys don't know what scrapple is out there in Chico, California, I can tell you that it is exactly as advertised. I can tell you that it is exactly as advertised, loaf of scrap pig meat that is formed together into a loaf with cornmeal, traditionally by the Pennsylvania Dutch, as a way of using every part of the hog that they had raised. And you take the snouts and the ears and the leftovers and you season them with sage, and as I say,

add cornmeal and then refrigerate it as a loaf, and then you cut the loaf and you fry it. It is a staple of diner food in the mid-Atlantic states, in Philadelphia, in Baltimore, and weirdly, you can get it here in Blue Hill, Maine at the Tradewinds Market. Joel, you ever get Scrapple at the Tradewinds? No. I am still befuddled by how it was that Scrapple found its way to Maine. Do you have any thoughts? They have it in the world section, right? No, it's in the frozen foods.

It's hidden next to the waffles. But let me tell you something. As I say, it is a staple of diners all up and down the mid-Atlantic coast. I know how to make it perfectly at home. It's not the same as eating it at the late, lamented Little Pete's Diner in Philadelphia. It's not there anymore. You can't go there anymore. And you know what?

You're sad that you can't go there anymore because some experiences are not replicable. Because as Maeve pointed out, and as Sheldon agreed, there is something about going out to eat that is different from staying home to eat. And they are both valuable experiences. No matter what the comparative cost is, They both have a distinct value. Neither one is better than the other, necessarily. Of course, it all goes down to what you can afford, you know, in terms of your time and your finances, in terms of how much you value the going out to eat experience, that social experience of going out and finding a place that you love and inserting yourself into a community of regulars and people who go there or the neighborhood that it exists in, making a night of it, making a morning of it, getting to see friends that you don't normally see or the same friends in a different context, and of course not having to do the work and enjoying the inspiration

of someone else cooking. At both high fine dining and low, you know, hash house dining, you find the right place. It's a wonderful experience that is not replicable at home. And home, of course, offers things that cannot ever be replicated in a going out environment. You know, not merely the control of the ingredients and the minute control of the texture of your potatoes and the obvious benefit of savings for your pocketbook. But also the fact that, you know, someone in your home is cooking for other people in your home. That it is a different kind of generosity and sharing. You know, it's just a different thing.

And then Martin plays the piano or whatever. We all put up with that because he thinks it's special and it gets him making a memory for his children. You know, all we can really do in in life is make memories you know whether you're making them for your children or for yourself and i wouldn't want to live a life where the only memory you had was one or the other of these two different kind of breakfast experiences you know you have to have a a diverse menu within your means a diverse menu of both kinds of experiences. You know, and it's just really a question of how often going out or staying home works for you. And this is one of those things where it works more for one individual than another individual in this particular marriage.

So, hang on, there was another thing. Maybe it's lost forever. like tears in the rain. That's a quote from a famous android in's favor. Martin's concern about cost is a reasonable one, but it is a concern that solves itself. When he does not want to waste his money on food that he finds to be junky or bad or not to his liking, he doesn't go. He stays home And guess what? The bill is less. I would say it's profound. It's profoundly awkward. There's a natural check on spending in that situation. Shen Lin likes to go out more. She places more value on that experience. And she should be able to go out more without feelings of shame or guilt to the places that she likes.

I think that it is a case that Shen Lin is probably willing to accept subpar food for better company. No offense, Shen Lin, I think you have great taste. But I mean, there are a lot of restaurants out there, particularly, you know, in a sort of mid-range family dining where, you know, the food isn't so great. Or maybe they do one or two things well, and that's all you can eat there. You know what I mean? And, and Martin is getting to be a snob over here about the food that he puts in his body. He doesn't want to spend his time or his money on the ballast of bad pancakes. And I think that's a respectable position to take. And I think it's fine for him to stay home more often than he goes out.

If he doesn't want to go out, he should not be compelled to do so, with some exceptions. One being, Shen Lin deserves to go out to a restaurant with her family, and I'm talking about her husband and children, a couple of times a month. That's nice to do. So if the baseline for Shen Lin is four outside breakfasts per month, right? One per weekend, which I think is, if it's within your means, a totally normal thing for a family to do. Martin, I think, is on the hook for two of those. I think that's fair. Shen Lin, I think you're fair to go out those other two weekends for sure.

See your mom, see your friends, bring kids, whatever. But if Martin's not feeling it, it's fine. It's fine for him to stay home guilt-free. And I think you should take advantage of Martin's willingness to make breakfast. I mean, there are two breakfasts in every weekend. There's no zero-sum game here.

You can have the best of both worlds. And Martin, you do need to go out two times. This is not just to be equitable with your wife and the things that she values in her life and to not be the weirdo who stays home while your wife and children go out and eat alone. It is also because you're not a foodie, but you're interested in food, so you should be out there tasting it, exploring the places that make food in your area that you like, taking chances on weird out-of-the-way places that you didn't ever think to try, going to places and evaluating what they're doing right and what they're not doing

right, and getting inspiration for stuff that you might go back and make at home. If you're someone who wants to take food seriously as a hobby, and as a very nourishing hobby at that, this is part of your repertoire, is to go out there, even at breakfast, even a bad meal is an instruction to you about what to avoid. So insofar as I was asked in the court documents to absolve Martin from any guilt for staying home, I am ruling in his favor with the caveat that he needs to join you for two outside breakfasts a month and otherwise continue to feed each other well, you guys. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules.

That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Shandlin, how are you feeling? I'm feeling really good. That felt like I was heard. And also that Martin is now tied to coming out twice a month with me to breakfast. And I think it's interesting that there was not only that note about going wherever, but to embrace it and just see what can come from that.

That's not something I was expecting at all. And so I'm looking forward to where we end up going to breakfast. Yeah, I think we were all thrown by just so much talk about the cast iron pans, but we didn't know what was going to happen. Martin, how are you feeling? I'm feeling really good about it too. I feel like I was also equally heard in this case and that my strongest points and my core beliefs were not compromised in this verdict. I feel like I can easily support it.

Well, Shenlyn and Martin, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Another case is in the books. Before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank Gavin Pouliot for naming this week's episode, Waffle House Arrest. If you would like to name a future episode, follow Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions there. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets hashtag jjho and check out the maximum fun subreddit to discuss this episode you can find evidence from this week's episode on our instagram which is at instagram.com slash judge john hodgman this week's episode was recorded by nolan ford at north state public radio in chico california Ivan Kuriev at Argo Studios in New York City and by Joel Mann

at WERU Radio in Orland, Maine. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Now let's get to Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment. Kelly says, my husband gives me guff when I use the word malleable to describe something other than metal. I am in capital letters. I'm sorry. Wait, let me understand this. Her husband gives her guff when she uses the term malleable to describe something other than literally manipulating metal. Yes.

Blacksmithing. She goes on to say, I am an English teacher. Literally manipulating metal. Yes. Blacksmithing. She goes on to say, I am an English teacher. And she shouts that. It's in all caps and there's a double exclamation point. Please make my engineer husband stop being a bigger pedant than me. Judge Hodgman, what do you say? Well, it is true that our former friend, the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, and I do say former while I remain fond and cordial friendship with Emily Brewster, who works for the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. Do not think I haven't noticed, Merriam-Webster, your constant trolling of this podcast by defining a hot dog as a sandwich.

I know what you're doing on Twitter. I know that you're doing that to annoy me and guess what mission accomplished hot dog is not a sandwich but the first definition in merriam-webster you know what it is joel man i do not judge the first definition of malleable no capable of being extended or shaped by beating with a hammer or by the pressure of rollers, specifically metal being shaped with a hammer, blacksmithing. But definition two is also something like being easily swayed, in your opinion. Being malleable, right? Malleable.

It's a word we all use. Flexible. Yeah, flexible. Right. I don't insist that you use the word flexible only when talking about tendons. So I would suggest that Kelly's husband be more malleable. Specifically, I think he needs to be shaped by beating with a hammer. I got Joel Mann on that one. I got a chuckle from Joel. Taciturn Joel breaks.

Maeve, I just want to thank you for being our guest bailiff these past two weeks. You're there in New York where I live, and I enjoy seeing you all the time there. And we've talked about it a lot, but I'm just going to say it again. Everyone should go check out Maeve Higgins. If you don't know who she is, you've made a terrible mistake in your life. MaeveHiggins.com will tell you about her new book, Maeve in America, which you should buy in print and in audio. It'll tell you about her new podcast, Mothers of Invention, a podcast about climate change and feminism that she's been recording with the former president of Ireland, consorting with presidents. I appreciate it so much. But, you know, I've learned a lot, like recording these two weeks with you, John, and your keen sense of fairness. You know, I hope that it rubs off on me.

I hope so, because you're very charming, but you've always been extremely unfair. It's one of the things we've all been saying about you for a long time. I know. It's just just me. That's just me. I'm unfair. All right. For the Judge John Hodgman Show here in Maine, New York, and beyond to Chico, California, this is See You Next Time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. Maximumfun.org. Comedy and culture.

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