Judge John Hodgman - You Can't Acquit With Us

Episode Date: July 15, 2020

Stephanie files suit against her younger sister Ashley. As kids, they both created clubs with their friends and excluded each other. Stephanie believes that Ashley started her club first, excluding Stephanie and sparking this years' long dispute. Ashley disagrees. Stephanie would now like to be retroactively inducted into Ashley's childhood club. Who's right? Who's wrong? It's MaxFunDrive! Thank you to all of our members for continuing to keep the show going. If you'd like to become a member, or if you want to update your membership level, visit maximumfun.org/join!Thank you to Ryan Stratton for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, follow Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne and with me as always is justice personified Judge John Hodgman. We'll go to the courtroom for this week's case in just a second. But first, we want to tell you a little bit about the Max Fund Drive, which just started. The Max Fund Drive has started. So you know that Maximum Funds business model is artist owned, audience supported. You hear me saying it every week all over the network. And what that means is that when you become a Maximum Fund member, especially during Max Fund Drive, you are directly affecting our ability to continue to do Judge John Hodgman, as well as Max Fund's ability to plan for other future, probably better podcasts. Let's face it. It's only up from here.

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That's MaximumFFun.org slash join. Stay tuned for the nitty gritty. That's I can't wait to get nitty and gritty, but let's go. Now this week's case, you can't acquit with us. Stephanie files suit against her younger sister, Ashley. As kids, they both created clubs with their friends and each excluded the other. Stephanie believes that Ashley started her club first, excluding Stephanie and sparking this years-long dispute.

Ashley disagrees. Stephanie would now like to be retroactively inducted into Ashley's childhood club. Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.

I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone, there will be nothing. Only I will remain. Bailiff Chessie Thorne, please swear them in. Stephanie, Ashley, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he doesn't want to belong to any club that would accept him as a member? Yes.

Yes. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. You have that a little bit wrong, Jesse. I only want to belong to clubs that desperately want me as a member and that don't require me to do anything to get in. Like, I feel like the Yale Whiff and P poofs should have just said you're in even though you don't sing very well that's what i that's how i feel from the tables down at maury's come on guys put me in the mix stephanie and ashley you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors can either of you name the piece of culture i referenced

when i entered the courtroom question mark stephan, do you have a guess? I'm going to guess The Tick, the animated series. The Tick, the animated series. That would be probably the least obscure of the three versions of The Tick, but still very obscure. Ashley, what's your guess? obscure. Ashley, what's your guess? I am guessing that it is an excerpt from a mission statement of one of your secret childhood clubs. Well, I'll put that in the guest book, but I being an only child had one club, the club of me. There was no other member. And all guesses are wrong. Sorry. In fact, that was the litany against fear i was really taking a risk with this one if either of you had ever read the frank herbert novel dune or had any

glancing familiarity with that cuckoo book you would have known this one right away you would have said dune because it is from the science fiction eco uh epic dune and john you were not exactly in safe territory making a reference to dune with judge john hodgman listeners no that's what i'm saying it was a real risk did i say i was in safe there no you didn't you were rolling the dice there buddy yeah i thought it could be i was like stephanie or ashley is going to get it. And then I'm going to have to be like, well, what is it called? The Litany Against Fear. And then I would say, well, what is the super secret space club of women with psychic powers who created that Litany Against Fear?

who created that litany against fear, who banded together behind the scenes to manipulate generations of births to genetically create the galaxy's savior, the Kwisatz Haderach. What would be the name of that sisterhood, Stephanie or Ashley? Any guess? I'm not aware.

The sisterhood of the Bene Gesserit, of course. You guys got to read Dune. It's good. It's a good book. Do you ever read Dune, Jesse? I tried to read dune it's good it's a good book do you ever read dune jesse i i tried to read dune once it's very readable uh-huh i've never read any of the other ones but i like doing a lot all right anyway here we go uh so let's see here stephanie you bring the case against ashley and your complaint is that when you were children as sisters, Ashley excluded you from a club? Explain. Yes. So this dispute stems from, we're talking about circa 1994. I would have been in third grade and Ashley would have been in first grade.

We're talking about the era of the animated tick. That's what it is. Yes. Also the era of the animated tick. That's what it's called. Yes. Yes. Also the era of the pog. Yeah. My friend Lacey and I had a club called SL Pogulators. It was a pog thing. So Stephanie, you had a club with with lacy oh i didn't know this would hit you this hard jesse didn't that wasn't in the notes that i read so it was a surprise i thought it was pretty fun when she said it was the era of the pog. But I didn't know it was a pog club. You guys have some really good metal slammers? Plastic. I had a plastic one. I didn't know that was going to set off a Jesse Thorne laughter storm. That was good.

You know how I feel about the caps from Passion Fruit orange guava juice bottles. Yeah, for those who don't know, and honestly, I count myself among them, because I was a grown man when pogs were a thing. Stephanie, what were pogs and what was the mission statement of the SL Pogulators? Pogs are about a silver dollar shape, thick paper, and you stack them up. It's a pretty simple game. You basically stack all the pogs up. You have a slammer, which is a plastic or metal thicker piece that you throw at the pile, and you're trying to flip the pogs over.

They have kind of a front side with a 90s memorabilia on it and a back side that's blank. Alf. The front side has Alf on it. And the back side is like what on it? Just white paper. It's blank. I don't understand.

The slammer, how do you throw it at the pile like a skipping stone, like a mini frisbee? A mini frizz or what? There's different techniques. Where does the slamming come in? I think the only rule, as far as I know, is that your hand can't be in contact with the slammer when it hits the pile. So you've got to throw it. But there's different, I think there are different techniques.

I was quite the expert, but I was trying to refresh my knowledge on how the game works. So you've got to throw it. But there's different, I think there are different techniques. I was quite the expert, but I was trying to refresh my knowledge on how the game works. Yeah, because you've left childish things behind you. These dumb childhood clubs don't matter to you anymore because you're a grown woman. Or, oh, no, no, you're not at all. You were living in the past and you hold a grudge and the grudge is against your sister. Yes. You were living in the past and you hold a grudge and the grudge is against your sister. Yes.

Now, SL Pogulators, may I presume that the SL and SL Pogulators were standard for Stephanie and Lacey? Yes. I presume they were the only members of the club? Yes, it was a two-person Pog playing club. And what were the... playing club. And what were the... I think Jesse's laughing because Pogs is a game that's not any fun with two people. How many people normally get in on a Pog match? Well, the more the better, really. You play for keeps. So with two people, you're just kind of passing them back and forth. You play for keeps.

So with two people, you're just kind of passing them back and forth. It's really improved by having more than two people in it. Yeah, pogs is a little bit in spirit like marbles, which is to say that part of the purpose is to collect pogs. And then in playing pogs, those pogs that you manage to flip over with your slammer, you get to keep. So it's sort of like a children's collecting game, just like in marbles, the marbles that you... I mean, I don't know exactly. I didn't grow up in Brooklyn in 1952, but I think the marbles that you knock out of the circle, you get to keep.

So it's sort of like a gambling game of skill for children involving Alf and possibly Denver the Last Dinosaur. And these Pog Discs, these thick paper Pog Discs, they originally started like as beverage, like the liner of a beverage cap, right? Or like a milk cap? Exactly. cap? Exactly. It's a Hawaiian game based on the cap liner of a bottle of POG juice, which stands for passion fruit orange guava. It's a blend that you can still buy in Hawaii and some other places. Oh, wow. I never knew that. But then it traveled to the mainland and became a mania in the early 1990s. You slammed some pogs, Jesse? I slammed a few pogs in my time, yeah.

What would you say is the best technique for slamming pogs? Because I don't understand from Stephanie what the physical action is. Sorry, Stephanie. Well, first of all, you're going to need a powerful slammer. So Stephanie only had a plastic slammer, which is an okay slammer, but you really ultimately are going to want a metal slammer. And that could really set you back. I mean, you're going to have to go to that baseball card and comic book store

and either buy a lot of packs of random ones or really put in an investment of $5 to get yourself that premium metal slammer. And then you are holding it flat between your thumb and middle finger with your index finger on top and slamming it directly flat downwards. And your goal is to kind of hit the pile both powerfully and somewhat off center, sort of like how you would flip a tiddly wink. So that as many pogs are not only thrown into the air, but flipped over as possible. And you're slamming it onto the surface of the table or the street or whatever, and it bounces up to hit the pile?

You're slamming it onto the pile, directly onto the pile. Directly onto the pile. How about that? Yeah. Sounds fun. Should we change this into an all-pog podcast? I think it would be more popular. A pog cast, as it were?

Yeah. Okay, so Stephanie, you have this very lonely club of two pog players called SL Pogulators. And then what did Ashley do to provoke, in your opinion, this dispute? Well, Ashley had a club with her friend Lauren that was called the Mr. Vowel Club. Mr. Vowel? T-H-O-W-E-L-L? Yes. It was pronounced with a T-H, but it was, was it? It was Vowel. Was it related to the concept of a vowel?

No. It wasn't? Completely unrelated. It was a vowel-heavy language. A language? Hang on, let me turn to Ashley and get a sense of what her club was all about. Ashley, you're the younger sister, right? The younger sister, yes. And you guys are in Virginia now, correct?

But did you grow up there? Yes. Okay. And tell me about the Mr. Vowel Club. So the Mr. Vowel Club, and I'm big enough to admit this, it was really lame. It was essentially me and one other person. What do you mean, lamer than SL Pogolators? Well, you know, you're...

Yeah, not as cool as most first grade clubs. You know, one thing I have to correct you on is that the SL Pogulators was very cool. It was very cool. It was very hip. It was exclusive. It was where everyone wanted to be, especially me. Everything about it was awesome. So, Ashley, you really wanted to be part of the SL Pogulators.

Oh, yeah. It was awesome. What made them so cool? I mean, you're the younger sister, right? So were you just looking up to your older sister? Oh, yeah. And what was going on? Yeah, Stephanie and Lacey were always really awesome.

They were, you know, two and three years my senior. And so they did everything first. You know, they were cheerleaders on the peewee football team, which, mind you, I tried out for and got cut from. They, you know, were like walking, talking encyclopedias of early 90s boy bands. And then they played pogs and they were really awesome when they did it. And Lacey had a lot of pogs. So kind of between them, just the amount, the volume of pogs they had to play with was envious. Right. But they were just pushing those pogs back and forth between each other because it was so exclusive. Right. Right. Stephanie, what pog were just pushing those pogs back and forth between each other because it was so exclusive. Right, right.

Stephanie, what pog were you most proud of? I know you've been teasing me for my slammer, but I had a silver sparkly Looney Tunes slammer, and it was pretty great. Wow, Overture, light the lights. This is it, the Pog of Nights. Wow. Overture, light the lights. This is it. The Pog of Nights. Well, that was our segment called Top Pogs here on the podcast. Ashley, did you have any pogs at the time? I had a few pogs. I also had a silver Looney Tunes slammer, but I unfortunately did not have anyone to play with. So I did not get to use it very frequently. Sounds like Ashley could have been a real asset to the SL Pogalators. Stephanie, why was she not invited to join? She had the Mr. Thouel Club. It's my clear memory that the Mr.

Thouel Club existed first, and that Lacey and I created the Pogalators in response to that. Although I have a little confession to that. I see. Although I have a little confession about that. I will allow it. It doesn't help my case, but... Then I'll double allow it. I was researching. Well, I reached out to Lacey to see if she still had any pogs because I wanted to submit a picture for the evidence.

And her first reaction was, why are pogs coming back? And I said, no, I'm going to be on this podcast where we're going to talk about. She's like, I'm there. I'll meet you at the Ska concert. So I told her we were going to talk about the pogulators and the Mr. Thouel Club. And her immediate response was, oh, the Mr. Thouel Club. And her immediate response was, oh, the Mr. Thouel Club. That's the club that Ashley and Lauren created after we excluded them from the Pogalators, isn't it? Oh, so there's a little bit of a Grey House dispute here in Judge John Hodgman parlance as to what what actually happened. Which came first, the pogulators or the vowels.

Yeah. Ashley didn't know about that, but Lacey's recollection is in line with Ashley's, I have to admit. Well, I must say I'm not surprised. And just because you brought it up, you do have some evidence, Stephanie, specifically Exhibit A being Lacey's pogs. She still has them. You sent in a photo of her pog collection. And this, of course, is available on the Judge John Hodgman page at MaximumFun.org,

as well as on our Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. And I don't know if you're seeing this, Jesse, as a pog neophyte. This is a pretty impressive collection of pogs to me. What do you think? Now, I'm opening up the uh pog collection here i'm seeing a lot of holograms which is very impressive to me uh one of them says be my valentine which is that's a seasonal hologram that's double valuable uh there's also what looks like a unicorn pegasus which is one of the most powerful creatures. In pogs or in general? I think both in pogs and in general. But in pog parlance, a unicorn pegasus is something you're looking for?

Well, I think you're looking for holograms, but you're also looking for incredible creatures. Like that red cardinal just sitting there on the grass. creatures. Like that red cardinal just sitting there on the grass. The red cardinal that is apparently from a series of pogs that just depict types of bird is a less impressive pog, I have to say. What about these cartoonish footprints that are styled in the flags of the United States and then, I guess, the Republic of Ireland, respectively. Is that something you're looking for, footprint flagpogs? Well, I mean, I wouldn't turn down a footprint flagpog. I'm no Quentin Tarantino, but it's fun.

Is that something that's common, Stephanie, the FFP, the footprint flagpog? Got to get them all? Not that I'm especially aware of, but there was a wide variety. I think these Disney pogs also look like particularly covetable pogs. I see one featuring Aladdin from the movie Aladdin, of course, with his famous monkey on his head. Yep, classic monkey head pog. And then I'm seeing one featuring Cinderella from the movie Cinderella. Oh, yeah, that's what that one is.

Yeah, that looks good, too. She also submitted a picture of a genuinely impressive holographic bunny rabbit and a big yellow pog tube, which I'm going to be frank, in retrospect, definitely looks like something you keep drugs in. I think, in retrospect, definitely looks like something you keep drugs in. It looks like a big, tall film canister, but it's the size where you keep your pogs in the cylindrical carrying case. Is that correct, Stephanie? Yes. So on a scale of awesome to radical, where would you place Lacey's Pog Collection? Well, I'm going to say I'm seeing relatively few exciting branded characters. I would have liked to have seen perhaps some characters from U.S. Acres.

The off-brand Garfield? Yeah, the other half of the Garfield television show. It had maybe an egg with feet. I don't. It had maybe an egg with feet. I don't remember. There was an egg with feet. There was a pig named Orson. These things I recall. But I think overall, especially given the sheer volume of reflective and holographic pogs, it's a not unimpressive collection.

And I would say that the holographic Be My Valentine, which is a type of love pog, and the blacklight poster style eyeball with lightning bolts are two of the real highlights. So, first of all, I now wish upon you a career as Antiques Roadshow only pog appraiser. Like, would that be a blessing or a curse? I mean, it would be a curse, obviously, but like if Antiques Roadshow called you up, Jesse, and said, guess what? We finally, we really need you this time. We want you to be on Antiques Roadshow once a month,

but you're only allowed to appraise pogs. Would that be a yes or a no? Well, you know, the experts on Antiques Roadshow aren't paid and have to pay their own way to the places where they tape Antiques Roadshow. Oh my gosh, really? That's all true. But I think I would still do it. All right, good. You know, I got an email from them once. I'll let them know. I'll let them know that you're interested in the job. Stephanie, are there any pogs in this collection? And Ashley, we haven't forgotten about you.

This is not an exclusion of Little Sisters right now. You're going to get your full due. But I'm deep into this pog culture now. This is my life. Stephanie, are there any pogs in Lacey's collection that used to be yours? I'm sure there are. Do you remember losing in a bad beat? I don't have any.

There aren't any specific memories that come to mind. I mean, most games kind of went the same. The game kind of goes the same way no matter when you play it. But we just kind of traded back and forth and it became... Yeah, but there was a day when the SL Pogulators disbanded and the last game of Pogs between you and Lacey unfolded. You're not haunted by the loss of any of these particular Pogs? There's no one that got away in here that you wish you could have back? No. As far as I can remember, I never actually purchased any of the pogs.

I think they all came my way through playing the game. So they just kind of, they come and they go. They're transient. Right. And you've left pogs behind, obviously. You don't have your pogs, do you? No, I don't. No.

So the whole thing, you didn't even care about the pogs. It was just excluding your sister. It sounds like you're making her feel bad. Hello, I'm your judge john hodgman the judge john hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you our members of course thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at maximumfund.org and they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning,

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Visit MadeInCookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. Let's talk to Ashley for a second. Ashley, tell me about the Mr. Vowel Club. Very interesting title for a club, arguably, I would dare say. Better and more creative than SL Pogolators. Perhaps. Both are charming.

Ashley, what was the Mr. Dowell Club? What was its charter? What was its mission? Who were its founding members? So we were a group, a group of two, who we kind of had a little bit of a setup. It was kind of like a Charlie's Angels type deal where we had an invisible slash imaginary boss who would instruct us on things like our secret language and what games to play and silly faces to make towards each other. And that was pretty much it. Did you have characters? Were you playing characters within the context of the Mr. Thouwell Club?

No, just ourselves. And this imaginary Bosley type boss, Bosley being the, no, Bosley was the friend of the Charlie's Angels. Charlie was the mysterious voice that only came over the speakerphone to give the Charlie's Angels their crime-fighting instructions, that was who Mr. Thowell was in your universe? Correct. And how did you channel the voice of Mr. Thowell? He had a siren call that I think Ashley should grace us with.

Well, there was a lot of intuition involved. A lot of telepathic communication if you will i will if you give me something more to go on than that i mean my question here is did one of you who's your co-angel in your fake charlie's angels mr thou gang lauren lauren all right and so did lauren do a voice or did you do a voice, the voice of Mr. Thowell? Or would you say, I'm just receiving a communication from Mr. Thowell? Yes, I'm receiving a communication. Often we instinctively knew that each other was telling the truth about the communications that we received from Mr. Thowell.

Well, I would imagine that's the law of the Mr. Thowell Club. Well, naturally. There are no liars in Mr. Thowell. Right. well i would imagine that's the law of the mr dowell club well there are no liars in mr dowell right and what kind of instructions would mr dowell give you mentioned something about language there was a language that we spoke which was loosely based on pig latin and secret code language that only you and Lauren were supposed to know. That was the intention. It was not that hard to decipher in fairness, but the intention was for it to be a private language that only members of the Mr. Thoull Club could speak and understand. I'm sorry. I feel like I've heard a lot of talk about this language, but maybe I missed it.

I haven't heard any talk in this language. Yeah. Can you still speak it? What is the name of the language and can you still speak it? The name, the language does not have a name. It just, it just is. It's just, it just exists. But it was mostly you take the first letter of a word and then drop the remaining letters

and then just substitute them with a lot of A's and then one E. So for example, my name, Ashley, would have been A. A, A, A, A, A, A, A, E. Pronounced how? Pronounced A. Pronounced A. A, okay. Sometimes.

Is there a more illustrative example that you can give me? Well. Like, I would like to play Pogs, please, sister. How would that come out? Probably something along the lines of, I would like to pay. Pay. How about something simpler like,

please love me, sister. That would be, please love me, sister. That would be please love me, stay. Okay. You only do one word in the whole sentence? Yeah. It wasn't particularly inventive. All right. But let me get this straight.

This is first grade, right? Right. First grade, you and Lauren are channeling an entity. Correct. Known as Mr. Thouel, who is teaching you a secret language. Yes. And pardon me, Hannah Smith, producer, you're going to have to bleep this out. And you wanted to play f***ing pogs?

This was such a cool club. It's incredible. This is Stephanie. The Mr. Thou Club is by far cooler than the Pogulators. I really disagree. Ashley, I'm not sure you're fit to judge. You're too far inside of it. So, Ashley, from your point of view, which club came first?

The Pogalators. The Pogalators. And you and Lauren formed Mr. Thowell in order to have a thing once Stephanie rejected your application to the Pogalators. Right. Do you remember the day that you asked to be part of the Pogalators and the day that Stephanie said, no, never, not even when we're in our 30s? It was really an ongoing process where every single time they would play, they would lock themselves in Stephanie's room. And I would beg to play, please let me play, let me play, let me play just this one time. And every single time the answer was no. And how did that make you feel? Well, it made me feel like I was an outsider, like I was less than.

I wasn't fit to play Pogs. Stephanie, do you recall this happening? Do you recall excluding your sister from the club? Yes. It was most of the fun of the Poglings. It was like a diamond medallion status a completely meaningless award that you only want because someone else has it yes all right so ashley here's the thing i'm trying to get to the point of where this is still a dispute this happened in the distant past

and part of that has to do with who came first, the Vowel or the Pogs? The classic riddle, who came first, the Vowel or the Pogs? Your memory, Ashley, is what? Pogulators first? Pogulators first. You know, Stephanie, I think we can now stipulate that probably Pogulators did come first, because that's what Lacey recalls, right? I would say it's in dispute. I would say it's in dispute. It's a gray area.

I don't know about that. I do want to say that Ashley has continued to give Lacey and I such a hard time about the Pogalators for so many years that... Yeah, you were mean. You were a mean older sister. But a few years ago, Lacey and I attempted to make amends by making Ashley a retroactive member and renaming the club the SLA Pogolators. And what did Ashley say to that? This is Ashley. I was delighted to join. But there is a but. So Stephanie claims that, well, we made you a part of the SLA Pog Leaders. Well, by what definition? Because we have never played Pogs. Stephanie and Lacey sometimes hang out secretly under the guise of having play dates with their babies.

But now we know Lacey still has pogs. So what if they're playing pogs? I don't know what they're doing. They could be playing pogs. Yeah, but they invited you to join the club. All you'd have to do is offer them the standard $100,000 initiation fee and then go through the rites and rituals of joining the pogulators. And then you would know all their secrets. There was no formal ceremony.

It was very much an afterthought. It was, I think we were, I think it was Stephanie's bachelorette party. And they both kind of, one of them, I don't even remember who, was like, oh, okay, fine, you can be in the club. And I was like, oh, my God. You know, this is unexpected. This is like a party for me right now. But there was no. And then as like, oh, my God, you know, this is unexpected. This is like a party for me right now. But there was no thought about it. But yeah, I thought, well, where was the ceremony? You know, there wasn't any kind of oath or there were no speeches. It wasn't it wasn't special.

So I think they did it. Really, I think it was unplanned. We discussed it. We discussed it. Lacey and I had deliberations for several hours before making the decision to let you in. Well, I think the plaintiff has proven herself to be a little less than credible at this point. So, you know, maybe, maybe not. You're saying that Stephanie and Lacey just threw this to you, that it was a sop. It was nothing to them.

Right. Plus, there was no pogs being played anymore, as far as you knew. So who cares? Right. Right. Right. I mean, the pogulators may have been formed with the express purpose of being mean to you from their point of view. But Ashley, you wanted to play some box.

Right. I want to get in on this. So you said no. Did you refuse the invitation to the SLA Pogulators? Oh, I accepted the invitation. I would never be so rash as to refuse an invitation I'd waited for over 25 years. Well, okay. So then do you feel you had justice, even though you still suspect your older sister of foul play? No. I have some requests. Some requests?

Yeah. I just forgot. You're not even the one who's bringing this case. Stephanie's suing you. It's a bit of a counter suit, I guess, if you will. All right. Hold on your request for a second, because I need to talk to Stephanie. Stephanie, you are bringing this lawsuit and it is clear that you are the wrong party in every way. So what are you possibly suing Ashley for? I sued Ashley because she, even after we've attempted to make amends, she's not accepted our gesture. She continues to give us a hard time about it. Anytime I see Lacey, it's, oh, did you guys play Pogs without me? Are you going to see Lacey? Are you guys going to go see Lacey and form another secret club to exclude me from? And it's incessant. She won't leave us alone so i i want the uh i want it to

stop you know you know the saying from the game of pogs you reap what you sow sometimes you slam and sometimes you get slammed the other thing that's weird here stephanie is that unless ashley is now lying to me she says that she has now accepted the invitation and you say she's not accepted the invitation you also say that she formed the mr dowell club before you but lacy says that she formed the mr dowell club after you as a reaction to being excluded from the Pogulators, you are as unreliable a narrator who has ever written a Yelp review as far as I'm concerned. She accepted the membership to the SLA Pogulators, but she hasn't accepted it as, she hasn't

taken it as a resolved issue. She continues to hold a grudge about the whole thing. You were hoping that by offering her membership in this club that it would erase all of her hurt feelings and it would all be water under the bridge, as they say in pog playing circles. Yes, it was an attempt to make amends for our past wrongs. It was an attempt to put a slammer down on her feelings and turn you into the good guy finally

you see where i'm going with this why are you suing ashley did you want to join the mr dowell club yes i do i i think uh lacy and i have done the right thing by admitting ashley into the pogulators and i think uh i I think Ashley should do the same thing for me. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Did you ever want to join the Mr. Thouwell Club when it was going on? Oh, yes. Because Ashley formed this cool club that was based on imagination and friendship. She wasn't just playing a game, playing a mind game on you.

Her club was, it was, I think it was designed to be attention grabbing. They would run around doing this call. What was the call of the Mr. Thouwell Club? I'm trying to make Ashley do it, but I don't think she's going to. You have to do the imitation of it, Stephanie. It had a little more like chutzpah to it when we did it. Well, you're invited to set the record straight and do it yourself, Ashley. Oh, I couldn't possibly.

That would be gauche. Why? Because it would violate a secret of your order or because you're scared? The former. Ashley, apart from the obvious vitriol between you and Stephanie, you know, the Charlie's Angels had three members. had three members why not invite stephanie and you know why not broker a piece years ago and say you want into mr thal club great we'll teach you the language you change one letter of one word of every sentence you say and then you go and you also you also have to receive transmissions from a weird extra dimensional being but got to let me into that pog club.

You could have quashed this beef then. You could have brokered a piece then. Why not? You know, to induct someone into a sacred club is a big deal. It's not something I take lightly, unlike the plaintiff. It's something that needs, there needs to be a lot of thought and a lot of effort and ceremony, and it needs to be special and unique. And I would never just offer someone admission to the Mr. Thouwell Club without really putting forth the groundwork that would need to go into that. So maybe at some point that would be reasonable. But at this point, I'm still, frankly, I'm still upset. I'm still upset about not being in the pog laters all right i mean that was your joke answer but i because how many how many rituals of initiation into the mr vowel club have there

ever been zero you and lauren got together and just started hearing voices can't tell me that you had like a a whole rite mapped out, a whole system of debating Stephanie's merits or demerits as a potential member. You just didn't let her in because you were mad because you weren't in the Pogglators Club, as you just admitted, correct? That's fair. Are you still friends with Lauren?

Peripherally. We're not as tight as we used to be. Life just kind of took us down our own path. So we're not as tight as the Pogglators are. You never call her up and go, ooh. And then slam down the phone. Unfortunately, no. Stephanie, you have a child?

I do. I have a daughter. Because you and Lacey are getting together for mom dates and play dates and stuff? She lives a couple states away, but we still see each other pretty often. And Ashley, do you have a child? I do not. Mm-hmm. Interesting. All right. So, Stephanie, what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor, and why should I?

I would like you to rule that Ashley needs to let bygones be bygones, Ashley needs to let bygones be bygones, accept the gesture that Lacey and I made by inducting her into the Pogalators as, you know, that amends have been made and that there's no further wrongdoing and leave us alone about it. And I also think she should do the same for me and let me into the Mr. That Old Club. It says here you also want Ashley to acknowledge that she started the dispute. Is that something you still believe is true? Well, in light of the new evidence, I'm willing to concede on that one. Ashley, what would you have me order if I were to find in your favor? I think a very reasonable ruling would be the following.

I would like both we're not in the same room but i feel like i'm hearing you unspool an ancient parchment on what you have written your demands i think it would be very reasonable for both of them, both Stephanie and Lacey, to prepare a written apology in which they accept that they excluded me from the club on purpose. They apologize for that. And then they then offer me a real role of membership in the SLA Pogolators. I then think we should commemorate the new membership, the real membership, with some kind of ceremony. And I'll be, you know, I think we can compromise on what that process would be. And I would like to play at least one game of Pogs with the SL Pog leaders. If all of this was provided, would you suitably induct Stephanie and perhaps Lacey

into the Mr. Dowell Club? I think that would be reasonable. Yes. All right. You're ready to settle this. Stephanie, all she's asking for is an elaborate written apology. Do you think you and Lacey can provide that? I'm not sure even if we did that it would meet her standards. Do you think that she is shifting demands? That she just wants to get you to humiliate yourself with an apology and then we'll start making more demands? Yes. Is there any evidence to suggest that that is Ashley's modus operandi?

Well, I think the past 25 years of her teasing us about it are the evidence. What does the teasing mean to you? You're the big sister. You've got a life. You've got kids. Who cares? Well, to me, it reminds me of a part of my childhood that I'm not proud of. I'm not.

Right. I don't like being reminded that I created a club to exclude my sister. So it doesn't make me feel good to be reminded that that happened. Ashley, how does Stephanie feeling bad about herself around this make you feel? Well, I don't want her to feel bad are you sure but i would like i would like seems like you enjoy it i think i think it's high time for us to bury it uh all right i think i've heard everything i need to in order to make my decision uh before i go into my secret star chamber here in the windowless tomb that is my private clubhouse of one.

There is one other piece of evidence, Stephanie, that you submitted. It is Exhibit B, Jesse Thorne. I'll let you look at that before you usher me out of this courtroom. Wait. This dog isn't really sleeping, is it? This is Stephanie's dog, Riley, sleeping on a bed, a dog bed. That's how he sleeps, yes. It's not.

No, he's itching his back or something. No, that's how he sleeps. Ashley's witness. No, he doesn't. Yeah. Don't try and fool me everyone can go look on the instagram judge john hodgman to the show page but i'm gonna tell you jesse it took me a long time to figure out which was the head of this dog and which was the tail like he did not this is like this is like this isn't a dog. This is a furry Mobius strip.

Google Images recognizes him as a cat. This is so weird. This is the kind of pictures people should be sending me. If your dog doesn't sleep upside down, don't at me. Well, I'm happy. Okay, good. Can you get me out of here? Yeah. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Stephanie, how are you feeling? Well, not great since the judge basically told me I was wrong. So I'm not feeling too good. Are you feeling bad because you've been abusing your sister or because you're going to lose?

A little bit of both. Ashley, how are you feeling bad because you've been abusing your sister or because you're going to lose? A little bit of both. Ashley, how are you feeling? Well, I think that went very well for me. I was not expecting a third witness to come in and basically prove my case. So that was a nice little treat. But, you know, I think we'll have a good affair ruling. I think we'll have a good affair ruling. If you could have one pog in the world, any pog in the world, what pog would you like to have?

Hmm. I don't know. Maybe one of those metal slammers that you're talking about because I had never heard about that. It probably would have been unsafe to let a bunch of eight-year-olds play with those. But, you know, we're all grown now and I think I'm ready for a metal slammer. How about you, Stephanie? Probably just something like a 90s insignia that said POW would be pretty cool. Yeah, okay.

I mean, you two are really setting your sights low there, but I'm going to let it slide. We'll be back in just a second with Judge John Hodgman's ruling. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. S-T-I-R. Hmm. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky.

Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close.

Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. So, I like you both very much, right? Ashley, you are a provocateur, a classic poop stirrer, a grudge holder,

a poker in the ribs of your sister. Truly the picture of a Mr. Thouel club member. And Stephanie, you are at best misremembering the order in which these clubs were formed and the purpose for which they were formed you are trying to rewrite history such that mr thou club came first so that you can cast yourself as the aggrieved party who had no choice but to form the SL Pogolators and exclude Ashley from your room as payback for being excluded from her special club. But Lacey, unfortunately for you, undermined that. And I do think that it is a misremembering because you yourself know that why you are rewriting this

history, because remembering it accurately makes you feel bad you formed a club with your cool friend to play the coolest game on earth pogs but you didn't care enough to even remember which pogs you had which pogs you cared about you didn't even care about which pogs you kept because your pogs are thrown to the winds. You form the club in order to needle your sister. And that's what older sisters do. I dare say it's what all older siblings do because it's fun. Now, now, all that has happened in the ensuing two and a half decades is Ashley needling you back, reminding you of this time in your life when you were less, slightly less than gracious. I don't think you were outright mean, but Ashley felt bad.

And now she takes pleasure in making you feel bad. Yes, you do, Ashley. You do take pleasure. I can tell. I think the first thing that needs to happen for your relationship to be repaired and for you to progress is for Stephanie, for you to acknowledge that this alternate reality that you constructed in order to make yourself the good guy and indeed to justify your bringing this case to me as though you were the wounded party when clearly the wound is entirely borne by Ashley is to acknowledge this and to not just offer a membership in the pogolators as a throwaway at a bachelorette party, but to really get out a quill and parchment, get some Pogalators letterhead,

write a letter of an apology from you and from Lacey, and indeed the entire Pogalators organization, acknowledging that the club was formed, at least in your mind, purposefully to exclude Ashley. And you may even need to apologize to lacy too because it seems like lacy actually liked pogs whereas you just like you just you just like the sad sound of your sister banging at your door i say this not merely to rule in Ashley's favor, which obviously I do, but also because it's important, especially since you and Lacey are now once again in a club to which Ashley

does not belong, which is motherhood, parenthood. You are once again at a slightly different and yet pivotal stage of your lives. And Ashley's on the outside looking in. Ashley, you like your niece? Oh, she's the best. She's adorable. I'm also her godmother.

Yeah. Yeah, no, I have no doubt. I mean, I'm not suggesting that just because you like hurting your sister, you don't like your niece. Of course you don't like your niece of course you but this is this informs I wanted to establish for the record that obviously you have you have love for your sister Stephanie of a love for her daughter you probably enjoy being an aunt you're probably an amazing aunt would you you say that's true, Stephanie? Yes, it is. And what kind of child does Lacey have?

She has a boy. She has a boy. And she lives a couple of states away. She's in New Jersey. Based on the geographical information you provided me, I'm prepared to make both my ruling and my sentence. First of all, obviously, I rule in Ashley's favor. As I said, a written apology is an order ashley i then order you to drop all beef slam all beef down

gross sounds gross but you know my intention try to draw everything into pogs doesn't work that's you know maybe i shouldn't be running a podcast after all. You got to let it go. You got to let it go. And then I want, Stephanie, you to invite Ashley to be part of the Pogalators. And you guys are going to get a couple of rooms in a nice hotel about midway between where you are in Northern Virginia and where Lacey is in Southern New Jersey. Or maybe an Airbnb. And you, Stephanie, and your daughter, and Lacey and her son, and Auntie Ashley here are all going to meet there.

And there will be an induction ceremony. I would like pictures of it. And then you're going to play an incredible game of pogs and finally give Ashley the justice that she deserves. And Ashley, you are going to forgive your sister and Lacey and then you are going to take their children and secretly induct them into the Mr. Thou Club. This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. How do you feel, Ashley? I think it's a very fair ruling. And I think we can both adhere to it, especially the last part. How about you, Stephanie? I feel pretty good. Even though I lost, Ashley has to drop the beef. So I feel good about that. Slam the beef.

Well, I just forgot about something. This whole ruling, by the way, is contingent upon Ashley doing the call. If Ashley doesn't do the call, I'm going the other way. And the beef continues. Gosh. Well, there's only one thing I can do, which is... That's the sound of a gavel. Thank you, guys. Stephanie, Ashley, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. Our thanks to all of Max Funds members, everyone who's retained their membership through tough times, everyone who's added a membership, everybody who's upgraded a membership. We're grateful to every single one

of you, and we cannot thank you enough. Hey, Jesse, I have a question. If I wanted to gift a membership to someone else, can I do that? Absolutely. This is something that we were, it was a lot of work to implement, as it turns out, but we did it because, you know, this is something that people have asked for in the past, but given the fact that there are so many people out there whose circumstances have changed, so many people out there who wish they could become a member but just aren't in a position to, and there have been so many people who have reached out to us and contacted us and said they want to do something to allow those people to become members,

you can give a gift membership at MaximumFun.org. So if you're already a member and you're looking for a way to do a little something extra, that benefits Maximum Fun and it'll benefit somebody who otherwise isn't in a position to become a member. If you haven't had a chance to become a member yet, you can do so at MaximumFun.org slash join. I'll say it again because I like saying URLs. MaximumFun.org slash join. I also want to give one more thank you, not just to our members and not just to all the folks who are buying tickets to the events that benefit the Equal Justice Initiative. But I also want to thank my father passed away a couple of weeks ago, and I shared some stuff

about him and his life on Twitter and on social media. And I offered that if people wanted to give a memorial gift, they could give it to an organization called Swords to Plowshares in San Francisco, which is a veterans organization that does direct services for veterans. And it's one that my dad received services from when he was a homeless addict who was struggling with post-traumatic stress disorder. And it's a place where my dad worked after he got clean. And, um, they just dropped me an email and said that they, uh, they raised, uh, about $10,000 in my dad's name. And I'm, I'm very grateful to everybody for that. And I also want to thank, just out of the blue the other day,

I got an email from my dad's hospice doctor and I hadn't been able to be up there in the Bay Area where he was in hospice at the VA hospital because of pandemic restrictions. And she sent me an email and she said just completely coincidentally, she was a Max Sunster and that she knew about my dad and realized it was him when, when one of the nurses mentioned to her that he had been a peace activist. And she said, well, if he was a peace activist and his last name is Thorne, it must be Jesse Thorne's dad. And my dad had pretty advanced dementia by the time he passed away. And the

doctor told me that she was able to connect with him over long lunches when she was in the hospice Because she knew so much about his life and work. And it was the most vivid illustration to me of the effect that our community has had on my life and my family's life. So I want to thank her. Her name is Dr. Chubbuck. I'm probably pronouncing it wrong and it's Chubuk or something. Um, sorry, doc. Um, but more than that, I just want to thank everybody who, who helped me in remembering my dad and earlier this year and in remembering my friend Evan who passed away and, um, who kind and supportive about me being away from the show as much as I have been, which is obviously not what I want. I love doing this show and who have made it possible for us to make this kind of business over the past decade or so. So thanks everybody. And especially thanks Dr. Chubbuck, for helping my dad. And thanks, John and Jen, for the kindness that you guys have given me. I'm so proud to work with you and so grateful to work with you. You know, it's hard to express that when, you know, you're crying and your tears are mixing with the sweat from standing in a laundry closet. But the stories about your dad were very inspiring and meaningful to me over the years and part of the deep DNA of this show. And to quote him, I'm sorry I stepped on your gerbil. A true classic. Sometimes you step on people's gerbils and all you can do is say, I'm sorry.

When I think about the legacy that my father left for me and the rest of my family, and my father was a complicated man with many failings, but also an extraordinary man. And one of the things that he always taught me, and it's something that he learned when he was working as a peace activist, as a veterans peace activist, and among other things, they wanted to march in the Veterans Day parade and the VFW wouldn't let them. And when they joined the parade, the VFW and the cops beat the crap out of them. And he told me that story. And he laughed about it because it was so dumb that they did it not that they joined the parade but what a dumb reason to beat somebody up and um and he he used to say if you can't laugh then what's the point and he was he was not funny but he was an amazing laugher. And he loved, he even loved when I told that story about him stepping on my hamster, which is probably his, I mean, he's the one who stepped on the hamster. Right. So, I can't imagine it was anything less than nightmarish for him.

But I don't think I would have gone into this work if it wasn't for him. So I'm so grateful to him for teaching me to laugh in the face of pain. And I'm grateful to you guys for, for giving me the chance to do that every week. It's such an important part of my life. And I'm grateful to my dad for teaching me that anytime I need to laugh, I can just think about the time that he was talking about how funny you were, John, but he described you as,

and there's a quote from my dad, your friend, houseman. No, no greater honor. It's better than how to come in. Okay. Yeah. So look, most of the the most of the podcasts that we do

here at maximum fun they're you know they're pretty comedic and i think you know it's it's been a it's been a pretty unfunny time and it's been a real joy and privilege and consolation to be able to provide some distraction. We have Swift Justice coming up in just a second. We're doing a show, right? Yeah. We want to thank Ryan Stratton for naming this week's episode, You Can't Acquit With Us. If you'd like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we put out our calls for submissions there. Follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman,

hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJHO, and check out the Maximum Fund subreddit to discuss this episode. We're on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. Make sure to follow us there for evidence and other fun stuff. This week's episode was recorded by Peter Solomon at Virginia Public Media, back when people were allowed to go into radio studios. This week's episode produced by Jennifer Marmer and Hannah Smith, who have been doing extraordinary work in extraordinary circumstances. We're so grateful to them and Jesus and all of our colleagues at Maximum Fun. All right, what about us with justice? Steve says, is it okay for me to ring the bell on my bike as I'm approaching pedestrians from behind on a shared pathway.

I ring my bell to warn them I'm coming, but often they're startled by the noise. Help! Why doesn't he just throw pogs at them? That's what this podcast is about. Pedestrians are going to get startled no matter what if you're coming up from behind them. I think you're doing the right thing by giving them a little ding-ding. As long as you give them a little ding-ding and not like, bring, bring, bring, bring, bring, bring.

Here's the thing, Steve. I understand you're trying to do the right thing. But whether you ring or you don't ring, you have to remember, you're a bicyclist. There is no way the world isn't going to hate you. Pedestrians and cars will hate you, no matter what you do.

Whether you're a good cyclist or a bad cyclist. And I urge you to be a good cyclist. There's going to be a certain amount of anger thrown your way. But the compensation for that is as a bicyclist, you know, in your heart, you're the best person in the world. That's why you get to wear those pants that's right you're the most virtuous and best person in the world everyone take care of each other out there on the roads come on share the road

yeah and it's good to ride bikes it's great to ride bikes that's it for this week's episode submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash jjHO or email Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. No case is too small. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. MaximumFun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Audience supported.