Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald - Bravo Restraining Orders, Private Investigators, and Escaping a MLM

Episode Date: June 8, 2023

Real Housewives of New Jersey’s Teresa’s new husband Louie has some explaining to do. His ex-fiancé was just granted a temporary restraining order against him. She is claiming he was stalking her and the story is crazy. Other cast members claimed on the reunion that Louie has contacted their family members and threatened them. Pete Davidson went after PETA. Drew Barrymore defended her statements about her mother. Elliot Page claims he was a victim of a homophobic man in LA. Prince Harry’s case against a British tabloid involves having Mono. Then I talk to Emily Paulson who wrote a very juicy book titled “Hey Hun” about her years-long experience in a multi-level marketing company. She gets into how she was sucked in, who she sucked in, its cult-like ways, and how and why she got out. Enjoy! Get extra juice on Patreon:https://www.patreon.com/juicyscoop/posts I am performing in Tempe, AZ Get tickets at https://heathermcdonald.net/ Subscribe on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@JuicyScoop/featured Follow me on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/heathermcdonald/ Follow me on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@heathermcdonald?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/HeatherMcDonald Follow Emily on Instagram @emilylynnpaulson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Heather McDonald has got the juices scoop. When you're on the road, when you're on the go. Juice is scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales. Her real life, Mr. St.Van Cereal Data and Cereal System You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tab Lloyd Real LifePod can. Listen in, listen up.

Woo, woo, and a McDonald. Juicy scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy scoop. Once again, I have a great show for you today. Gonna go through some juicy hot topics for you, catch you up to date on everything. And then I had a wonderful in studio interview with an author who was part of a huge multi-level marketing company.

And everything she experienced, how she got out, it's really juicy and very interesting. And that's Emily Paulson. But first, let me get into it a few things that are happening. We're going to get into the real Housewives of New Jersey first because there's new news on that that I think is a crazy story. As you know, Teresa Star of the Show got married to this guy, Louis. When she started to date him, people became aware that he had two ex-fiancees,

both named Vanessa. One of them, she's very pretty blonde in Vanessa, is a therapist, and she went on to do this, some publicity about this race that she does, where she ran in her wedding dress and reveals what's it like to be in a relationship with a narcissist, and she specializes in recovery from narcissistic spouse abuse or partner abuse of a narcissist.

And she just got granted a temporary training order against Louis, her ex-viance, and now husband of Teresa of Real Housewives of New Jersey. Because her attorney who is doing the interviews for said she had this person come in as a client and she was counseling her and every time she'd come in this person would also ask about her and she'd say, what about your ex-fiance? Louis, what if he left Theresa? Would you ever consider going back to him? And first she didn't think it was a big deal because she was like, well,

it wasn't the news and they are famous and people might be interested. But she was a little suspicious and she's, and then the woman I guess stopped coming, I'm not really sure what happened next, but she was paying with these prepaid cards and they didn't go through. So then they went into collection and in trying to collect the money, they realized that this woman was a, a, an employee of Bo Dedals.

And Bo Dedal is this private investigator that Louis screamed to everybody while on camera. I got Boad Deedle to investigate all of you. I've got stuff on all of you. Then he said, no, I was just joking. We would never spend our money on that. However, you know, there were personal friends. One thing that we found interesting

is that my friend, comedian Tammy Paschatelli, noticed that when she was doing stand-up and Working with Joe Gorgon his stand-up career that this guy Bo Diel started to follow her I think that was interesting. He is now said I won't admit or Deny that I ever worked for Louis. Okay, so that's changing the story from, um, no, I never worked for him. Now it's like, I'm not admitting it or denying it. So she went and got this restraining word saying that Louis is stalking her by hiring people to come and poses someone else to get information. I think the whole story is so bizarre, but I think they're pretty bizarre people

story is so bizarre, but I think they're pretty bizarre people. Because when this piss off Teresa that he's obsessed with his fiancee or does he tell Teresa, well this woman's trying to take me down by saying I'm a narcissist, so I need to get more information about maybe she would reveal something that we could use against her. I don't know, I think it's I don't think that would bode well that my husband was still obsessed with his ex-fiance. Why would you just ignore it? That's very strange. It's a temporary restraining order.

I'm sure he will fight the permanent. But that just came out yesterday, page six, everybody's reporting on it. But just a very bizarre thing. When I first read it, I was like, I don't know if this is totally true. And then upon further investigation, I'm like, I don't know if this is totally true. And then upon further investigation, I'm like, yeah, this sounds pretty true. Then I watched the reunion last night, and it's just gotten so ugly.

And Louis is the guy's, are getting ready. Louis got his shirt off, and his tattoos, and he's like, I'm coming out there. Meanwhile, I could reveal that Rachel, who is the new cast member, and she's a stepmother, and she adopted her son. And even Dolores says, no, I knew her years ago,

and she's been wanting to adopt her stepson now, her son, for years, because the mother is in prison and has no relationship with the 16-year-old son. She said on the reunion, she said, it's her belief, and she acted pretty convicting, pretty convincing of her belief, that Louis found through investigators found her son's mother in the prison and had her get in touch with bloggers to get her story out to say, I'm not happy with this, I don't want this, but in fact, she never fought it, and that is why the adoption went through.

And I'm like, well, this is true. It's not only sad for Rachel, it's not only sad for the boy, but it's sad for the fucked up mother. That's obviously struggled in life. She's in prison. She has a relationship with her son. I mean, you know, this is not good either for her. So that's cruel.

Then Margaret says he contacted one of my kids, somebody contacted one of my kids and said, I'm the guy on the other line, as he said, whoever this was, but we believe it's Louie allegedly, that I'm the guy you have to worry about. So it was a phone number, they tracked the phone number and the phone number went to Louis. Louis.

And her kid is very private, never been on the show. Doesn't want to be on the show. So this was a problem. And I was thinking, well, what would be the point of that? I guess the point would be that then Margaret being a protective mother would say, you know what? Maybe I need to get off the show. This is too scary.

My kid is now mad at me because he's never wanted this life. I've worked really hard to protect him and, you know, now what am I gonna do? So all so strange. Meanwhile, Teresa's just like, what? Who acting's really bad? She and Melissa, of course, get into it. She accuses Melissa and Joe, her brother, of hanging out with Joe, Judice's,

her ex-husband who went to prison four years, she went to prison for one. She said, I believe you were part of the FBI investigating us because you hung out with Joe, Judice's ex partner who eventually, they believe, turned him in. And Melissa was really good. She's like, no, you did the crime.

I had nothing to do with it. Then he goes, she said, well, Jacqueline, who was a former housewife on the show. Jacqueline told me, when we met up in Vegas, that it was you who did it. She's like, I haven't talked to Jacqueline a year, but I will give you this. She has a text message that Jacqueline sent

to this other cast member, Jackie, who is barely on the show and she came at the end. That's not important. Anyway, there's a text message from Jacqueline talking shit about Teresa, horrible saying she's manipulative, but she's also dumb and calculating. And then she goes after Teresa's looks and her plastic surgery and it's a horrible-be message. And Melissa is just reading it.

I mean, so awkward. And then Dolores is like, ooh, this isn't going to be good for you, Melissa. You better sleep with one eye open. I'm like, what is this like loyalty, baffiosa thing? Because that was the other thing when Theresa married Louis, at the wedding, his whole family is like, you're loyal, you're loyal. And meanwhile, his sister who married them is an eye doctor,

but now she's got this app that he co-founded, called Forgiveness, that's all about forgiving. I mean, the hypocrisy of it all, which nobody's gonna get this app or whatever, but it's like, you know, they act like they it all, which nobody's gonna get this app or whatever, but it's like, you know, they act like they're all like he's all spiritual and he does this warrior, you know, male, I don't know, be a better man kind of a situation, go to these things in laguta with a bunch of guys that are sunburned and you know,

this whole thing when he sent the video to that way, who I assume is this woman Vanessa. I know this is very convoluted, but it is like really crazy because you realize, I think this is crazy behavior because it's very hard to even find the motivation. And that's why I'm like, wait, is this really true? What would be the motivation behind all of this? And I think the result, we still have one episode left, but I think the result is going to be that Teresa is going to be put on pause.

I really do because this is really dark and I don't know how they're going to justify it. And because she's so loyal, I think she's going to believe everything he says. And now they're so in this so deep. Meanwhile, the Danielle girl, you know, she's like, was I set up? I don't know. There's so much to it. But this is the the really juicy stuff about it. And just really, oh my god, it's like crazy. Anyway, let's move on to something else. I thought this was kind of interesting. Pete Davidson adopted a cute dog, and he was seen leaving the place where he bought the dog. Peter went on and got and made a statement

saying, I wish he would have adopted and not shopped. And he went and left a voicemail for PETA for the woman that said it and was like, listen, why don't you do a little research before you put it out there? I'm very allergic to dogs except for this particular breed. So I do need to buy this breed. And the reason we got this dog is because my mom's dog

died just last week and the dog was only two. So we were very sad and wanted to get another dog. And the comments are pretty great because I've always thought about this too. I know people say, no, you should always adopt a dog. My dog, Raven, was adopted. My cat was adopted. They were older pets, however, they were,

it is a pure breed, but it needed a home. Because my dog, Raven, was seven when we got her during COVID, because she was a breeder dog, and she was too old to have babies anymore, and so they didn't really have any use for her, and we went and adopted her. Now she's having her best life. It was kind of interesting that he called them out, and I thought that was pretty good. And then also, it's true. I mean, these dogs are born. I mean, they are born.

So someone needs to take them. But I get it. It's a huge argument. And don't go get out me. But I just thought the fact that they did say something false and he does really is really allergic, I thought this is probably one of the best things. I think Big Tavitsons has ever done and is, you know, cleared something up because he bothered

him, so that was good. Harry is going every day, they're suing the, I think it's called the mirror tabloid. And some of it is really kind of funny that's coming out with Prince Harry. He's saying that they put it out there that he had mono which is the kissing disease and everyone was mean to him at his school when they wrote this article that he had mono

and he did have mono, but it's affected him for the rest of his life that he was teased about the mono. I mean, pretty funny. And then he said, it's because of this tabloid that his relationship with Chelsea, who is the really pretty girl that he dated for like, I don't know, six or seven years,

blonde girl, that his relationship ended with her because of the articles that they were written. And basically, he's saying, I believe my phones were tapped. And that's how they knew about the fights that we'd have and about all this other stuff. They would always write the articles as very good sources or party goes, saw them arguing out of party. The story was that she thought he was flirting with other people and that's why they argued other people or other articles have said and who knows where it's really coming from if they really tapped their phones which is horrible if they did or if it really was insiders giving stories or if them or do these people just make the stuff up I don't really I don't really know how it works, but he is going and suing them and he is in court every day.

Meanwhile, Spotify who paid them $25 million for their podcast, they just laid off 200 people. So the article that came out about that was kind of like wonder, because they overpaid them, but they also paid Joe Rogan a lot. They paid a lot of people a lot of money, millions, millions of dollars. So, and 200 people is just a lot of people a lot of money, millions, millions of dollars.

200 people is just a couple of percentage of their company, but pretty interesting. Let me say, and Drew Barrymore, this was pretty crazy. So, she wrote an article about her. She didn't interview with them, I believe, and interview with Vulture. And she said, you know, after talking to Jeanette McCurdy and Brooke Shields, who had difficult relationships with their mothers who are now both past. She said, you know, I shouldn't say she wished her mom to be dead, but the way they wrote the article and then the tabloids picked it up was basically that she's like, yeah, I don't have the luxury

of being able to grow and recover from this horrible relationship with my mom because she's still on this planet. And until my mom is no longer on this planet, I don't think I can recover from the trauma traumatic relationship I had with my mom. The mom was a stage mom. She's this really pretty woman named Jade. She would take her to studio 54. She also put it in rehab from 13 to 15

or something for two years. During that time at 14, she got emancipated from her parents. And when she got out of rehab, she was like living on her own. And then she got married at like 19 to a bartender that she got married to Tom Green and then she got married to the guy that she had her two kids with then she divorced and now of course she's doing her talk show. And then she drew then went and was really pissed and did a Instagram video where she's like so mad at the tabloids for taking the quote from the Vultramagzator making a headline, no I do not wish my mom to be dead. I would never wish that.

But her explanation was not great either. Well, if she was my friend, I would have said, what you should say, Drew, and I'll do it in Drew's voice, is what she should have said was, what I meant was, when you have a difficult relationship with a mother as I have have and it's truly never going to be more than a happy birthday text and you know happy

mothers day possibly and they're in their 70s as my mother is, I feel that until I can fully heal from this relationship it most likely won't happen until she's passed. So while she's living here, I still am traumatized by the fact that it can't be repaired. But once time happens and she is passed, I would assume I would be better equipped like Brooksheel's and Jeanette Piccini

to recover from it. That's what I think she was trying to say. Anyway, last little art thing I'm gonna talk about is Elliott Page, who is a man now, a transgender man. He was born as Ellen Page and was the star of the hit movie, Juno, about a pregnant teen. And Elliott Page, who goes by Elliot Page now and goes by being a man now, has a book coming out called Page Boy, great title of a book. And in the book,

along with him saying that while he was the star of Juno as a pregnant teen girl, he also had sex with his co-star who was a female all the time. That was kind of juicy. But he also says, one day in West Hollywood, he was walking into the pink dot convenience store in 2020. And this man came out and said slurs, homophobic slurs to him and use the F-A-G word or whatever. And it was horrible and he had to run into the story to be safe. And, you know, that's an awful story, right? That's an awful story.

But as someone who lives in LA, and I noticed that an account I follow, which is about the most depressing account ever, but needs to be out there, street people of LA, I noticed that they wrote the same thing I was thinking was, yes, that is horrible, does that happen? Yes, but people, there we have insane people walking our streets freely and being insane, and nobody can do anything about it. The police, mental health people, they can't.

I don't know, they can't put them in a 501 50, I don't know what, but we have crazy people that are scary walking our streets all the time yelling out awful mean things. I mean there's way worse things that have happened to people walking on streets and it this is horrible but I'm thinking it's probably just a crazy person and knowing that they're in West Hollywood. Yeah is that crazy person homophobic? Absolute is that crazy person an awful person to scream those things?

Absolutely, but my initial thought was just like, yeah, I don't think this person saw you and was like, I'm angry, that's Elliot Page who used to be Ellen. That's my personal opinion. Some people think it's a little Jesse Smallant. I don't. I think this thing happened to Elliott Page and he wrote it in his book. But being that I happened on the streets of LA and the way the story is told, the person does seem absolutely insane. So, you know, this is the story that's getting picked up in the book is out

saying, so you know, this is the story that's getting packed up in the book is out and it seems like a pretty juicy book. So with that all being said, I hope you guys see me in the at the Tempe improv. I will be there on June 16th and 17th with Chris Franchola and then of course Chris and Justin and I will be at my fabulous show in San Diego June 24th. Everything is at Heather McDonnell.net. Also very exciting will be my extra juicy which will come out Friday because that I will be covering everything I knew about Vanderpump rules that I was sworn to secrecy. We will have all now seen the final end of the reunion and I'm going to pick that apart and give all my thoughts. That's going to be on the Friday's extra juicy where you can get it right here

and you can also get it on Patreon which you go and get that at Heather McDonald dot net. So make sure that you get that. All right. Now for my juicy interview, guys. Thanks. Sometimes small daily actions really make a big difference, especially when it comes to caring for your hair. A little goes a long way. Yes, I am loving my way products. So whether your hair is fine, medium or thick,

or whether you're looking for volume, shine, or hydration, their shampoo and conditioners are made to really give your strands exactly what they need. I am loving their detox shampoo right now. I have found it's making a huge difference to really clean my scalp, give it that deep cleanse and bring it back to life. Also adding strength and softness and shine. It's just that special combination of their products that just help to enrich and really, you know, you get that buildup, especially when you use a lot of hairspray, a lot of, you know, different products,

I think the Detox shampoo is so important. So get on your way to healthy your hair one day at a time with shampoos and conditioners that are just your type. Go to the way THEOUAI.com and use code Juicy for 15% off your entire purchase. That's thewaytheuai.com code Juicy. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I'm very excited to speak to ReturnGust, but she's also an author, Emily Lynn Poulson. Hey, hun.

This is a juicy book about your life when you got sucked into an MLM. And you tell it all, and I'm very excited to talk to you. But I just remind people that are hardcore juicy scoopers. I did have you on, probably like what, like two years ago. Gosh, I guess so, yeah, it was 2021, yeah, March of 2021, I think. You were, you were an AUSC alum,

and unfortunately you went to the horrible gynecologist that was where you went to have your exams if you were a student there, and you were so brave and put it it on the record, and sued, and everything else. And that was fascinating, talked to you back then. But you are married mother of five. You live in beautiful Oregon. And let's get into what happened

when you got into involved in this skin care cosmetic multi-level marketing. How did they just start from the beginning? So I have so many questions. So I had just had my last kid. So I was a state-home mom with five kids. And I'd been out of the workforce for a pretty long time. And my husband had a pretty demanding job.

He traveled a lot. So I had this desire to do something. I wanted to earn money or just contribute in some other way than wiping butts and changing diapers. I just accraved something else. And getting child care for five kids was totally out of the question. And so when a friend reached out via social media,

a friend from high school and said, hey, I'm meeting friends for wine. You want to come out and meet. I was like, first of all, yes. Get me out of the house. I'd love to go out. And she worked for one of those companies. So I knew she was meeting people for, you know, work, quote unquote, work.

And I had seen some of her posts on social media. And I had been intrigued a little bit. I was, I had that feeling though of like cringe. Like it's one of those things. Okay, so let's talk about the posts. What were the things that intrigued you and what were the cringy ones? So it was the things I was looking for.

Like it looked like she was making lots of money. Like that looked nice and she was home with her kids. So what were her posts like just got this new rise? Yes, yes. Or I just went on this trip. That was the other thing. I'm like, oh gosh, she's going on a trip without her family and with all these women

and all this camaraderie. I know it sounds so nice. She was in wine country and it looked really aspirational. You know, it looked like she was succeeding. She had all these friends seemingly. So those things look nice. But what was cringey was the constant. It was like the constant feed of, you know, oh, my business is blessing me with this. Wouldn't she

want to join this? Come join my team. All of those things that you've seen. And, you know, she'd reached out a couple of times. And so I guess that part of me was like, I don't want to like have makeup parties at my house. And I don't want to like have makeup parties at my house and I don't want to be the person annoying people in their DMs. So I was a little bit mixed, but I'm like, whatever, she's inviting me out, I'm going to go meet her out. So go out, meet with her. And it kind of was like the perfect storm of, you know, I was drinking wines, that helped. And there's all these products out and I was like, oh, those look good.

You know, I'm kind of looking for new stuff for my skin. And of course, I just had a baby. And so stuff goes on, you're losing your hair and your skin's dry and all that stuff. So I thought, okay, these would be good. So killing two birds with one stone. And again, there's all these women there. And I'm like, gosh, if they can do it,

maybe this is something that I can do. And again, this was someone I knew. Like, I went to high school with her. It's like, gosh, if they can do it, maybe this is something that I can do. And again, this was someone I knew. Like, I went to high school with her. It's like, I know her. I like her. I trust her. She wouldn't lead me astray. And so by the end of the night, I was like, sign me up.

And what easy initial sign me up? What is that in tail? Yep, it entails basically signing a form with your social security number and a credit card number and I paid a thousand dollars. So it's just a thousand. What do you get for a thousand? You basically get this kit of products and you can use them yourself, you can sell them and the reason I got roped into the big one was there was a few different options, I don't remember what. It was like 300, 600, 900 or something like that. And the bigger package was the bigger discount, the more you spent, the more you got.

And so in those moments where it's like, ooh, I can only get this right now, I might as well get all of it. If I'm gonna spend 300, I might as well spend 600, if I spend 600, I might as well just like mind game, right? And so I thought, if anything, I'll buy this stuff, I'll use it, and it'll be a discount. If I never do anything again, you know, that it'll be worth it.

I'll have all this stuff. Yeah. So you start using products, you like the products? Yeah, I like them. And so then when do you start, like having parties or recruiting people? Yeah. So it was the very first night when I joined.

Yeah. I was, you know, I drove home and I didn't want to go home yet because my kids were still up. So I went away until after bedtime to, like, get the whole night. And so I met my best friend out and we got some chips and salsa and I kind of showed her, like, the pamphlets and everything. And she was like, well, if you did this, because that's something I could do. And she was like, well, if you did this, because that's something I could do.

And she was sort of looking for an escape to. She was just in the middle of a divorce and all the stuff. And we were like, oh, this would be fun to do together. Like, nothing may ever happen, but it would be fun. And so she signed up that day too. But now, with that girl, then under you? Yes. Oh, so now the story is started.

So now you're ready to start. Yes, exactly. Okay, so now the story is done. So now the story is done. Yes, exactly. Okay, so now what do you guys do? So honestly, the next thing that happened was I got announced on social media. So I kind of thought this is something I'm gonna do. On the side, I'll try it out. I'm not gonna take it too seriously.

My friend signed up, we'll figure this out, right? Like I hadn't even got the products to my house yet. Yeah. And then I was tagged in a post by the friend I met up with. Yeah. And it was like welcome to the company and, you know, Emily joined. She's a busy mom of five. It was like this announcement.

Yeah. And I was like, oh, so I kind of got outed on social media. Like my mom texted me and she's like, what did you join? Like what, what's going on? I'm like, oh, so I kind of got outed on social media. Like my mom texted me and she was like, what did you join? Like what, what's going on? I'm like, oh crap, like I hadn't even told my husband yet. And so it was sort of that uncomfortable. Like, well now I guess I have to talk about it. Right.

And so I was given all of these like scripts and like business, business, again, air quotes, things to follow. Like first thing to do, step one, post about your business. Step two, message these people. Make a dirt list. What people, people in your life? So you make, this is really cringe,

I talk about this in the book, but the first thing you do is you make a dirt list. Okay. A dirt list is comprised of people who would buy dirt from you. That's why it's called a dirt list. So those are the people who no matter what your mom you're doing or selling would buy anything from you. And so you make a list of those people and then your mom Yes, sister totally your best friend like whatever like the best friend I met with like she probably would have no matter

What company what product she probably would have joined just because it was me right So you make those lists and then you're given scripts to send out like, hey, that's, you know, the title, hence the title. Hey, yeah. I know that we haven't talked in 12 years. Yes, yes. I don't know if you've seen what I'm doing, but I'd love to pick your brain about my new business. You know, we're the whatever.

Number one, blah, blah, blah company, you know, you go on this spiel and you know, is there a time we can talk, right? So that you go on the attack in people's DMs. Right. And then you make another list, it's called your dream team list. Yeah.

Like I can't say these with a straight face. But it's people who, if you could pick anyone to like be on your team. Oprah. Yeah, like totally aspirational. Like the most famous people you know. Oh, you actually are. Oh, but people who you would have contact with.

Like, oh, who does my husband know at work who's really well connected or something? Oh, OK. So then you write those people down, right? And then you just, again, you've got scripts to reach out to them. And you start sending messages, sending DMs, sending texts, sending emails, whatever, calling people, cold calling people, and getting people

to like, join you. So that's how that starts. Okay, so how many years were you involved in this? Over six, like six and a half. And so talk about the success. Like when, explaining that. Yeah. So the reason I really got sucked in,

and I think the reason I did so well at first, is because there weren't a lot of people in my area. I was in Seattle at the time. And this company really wasn't big there. Nobody really heard of it. There wasn't anybody really working for this company there. And so when I talk to my friends about it, they're like, oh, cool. Sure, I'll try that stuff, right?

And so I had that. There was nobody using it. And I had money. And I had a big network of friends with money. And so that allowed me to look like I was succeeding really quickly, even though I wasn't getting a huge paycheck or anything. But you start getting tagged on social media, you start getting all these accolades from the company, you start promoting with all these weird titles. You're a superstar number, eight or whatever,

and you don't even know what that means, but you're getting those dopamine hits. So are you just getting people under you? Are you actually fulfilling orders? There's some of that, but honestly the products are just a way to get people in the funnel, in the company. Because everything I've read is like it's really, it's not even how many the products sell. It's that you have all these people that spent a thousand.

And then that thousand person has six people under them that spent a thousand. Right. And then that thousand person has six people under them who bought a thousand. Yep. Because honestly, you never need anybody else to do anything again. If they, like if I had just bought the $1,000 kit, my upline would have made money from that. And she would have been happy with that

then she'd go recruit somebody else. OK. And ideally, you want someone who's going to sell and recruit other people because then you earn a commission on that. How much commission do you get for each company? So it's different for each company, but you earn money on whether it's 10%, 5%, 20% depends on the company.

On anybody who joins you in your downline. So someone joins me, I earn money on their sales. Someone joins them. I earn money on her sales and those sales below them. So it's this, again, it's a pyramid. So all the sales flow up. So the bigger your pyramid is, the more you make. And so it's all about recruiting.

It's about getting as many people as possible. Because even if you're just selling product or recruiting people, that's what's important is more people. And when you do buy a product as a customer, which anybody who probably has ever bought from an MLM would know is You're never left alone Like say you buy an eye cream from me or something I would be in your DMs every month like hey, do you need to add anything else to that anything else?

You want to try you know the best way to get a discount is to join as a consultant like now you're just another target. Wow. Yeah and So you don't really have to do this particular company. You weren't doing the Mary K parties or the stuff where parties. Yeah, I think I had a party at my house to begin with, like a launch party. I think I did something at first. And then it was like going to retention events. So the other thing that these companies do, and they do it everywhere all over the country,

is they have little local events where it's like come learn about XYZ company, and consultants, like me, I would bring friends to it, I'd invite friends to it, and they'd have some speaker who was a consultant talking about how this company changed their lives, and again, really aspirational, and they'd have products there, they'd have- And that's like a three day convention thing? No, these were just like a night. Oh, okay. Just one thing.

Just like an easy couple hour thing. But then again, you're in the funnel. Like you're gonna be bugged like every day until you sign up and you know, you've got this boss babe like on your ass constantly. Yeah. Now what do you think of the presentation and you know, are you gonna join? So you know, there's those type of things all the time that you're not required to go to.

But if you want to be successful, you've got to show up to these things. And really told that. And when did that name become so associated with the stay-at-home moms or to your level marketing, the boss babe? I don't know. I know it was there when I joined,

but I think it came, there was this girl boss. Oh girl, yeah. It kind of started with that. And then I think it morphed into boss babe. Right. All these infantilizing like monocurs, which you don't hear for men. Like, you're a boy boss.

Like, you're a dude boss. You never hear that. I know what, I always thought that was like, yes, so what? I know, just like, I'm just a boss. Just call me a boss. You're a dude boss. You never hear that. I know. I was like, yes, so what? I know, just like I'm just a boss. Just call me a boss. Yeah, like, yeah. And okay, so then what about the vacations and stuff that you get to go because you're a shirt level?

Do you go on like cruises and shirt like that? Yes, so that's one thing that's really, it's ironic that they're all called like, oh, I earned this free trip, I earned this free thing because you have to earn them, right? Like, you know, with a normal company, you might get bonuses, you might get a company trip or something like that, but you're also getting paid

for a job like during that time. This is just, you're doing unpaid labor all the time trying to earn these things and whether that's like recruit two people and do this weird like dance metric thing. So, you have to qualify for certain trips, whether it's you know, a trip like a cruise, a lot of companies do cruises or a trip to Mexico, whatever. And then they give you a stipend. So, they'll give you a certain stipend for like really shitty airplane travel, which you always end up upgrading.

And then generally if you're gonna go on a trip, you don't go to Mexico for like two days, and so you upgrade and extend a little bit, and so is a crappy hotel room, and so you like upgrade that. So it's always like the bare bones. Right. And so you always end up spending more money. That's the first thing, like these free trips. And the more I talk to people, like I interviewed a lot of people when I wrote this book,

that was the one thing that always came up. It's like, oh, I earned this thing and it ended up costing me twice as much. Or, you know, I got a fine from the IRS because I didn't claim it on my taxes, because you're then taxed on it at the end of the year. It's on your income as a payment basically.. Like say it's a $10,000 value trip on your end of year, your $10.99, it'll have $10,000 for whatever Mexico trip as

income, which can great, thanks, but you can't pay your rent with a Mexico trip. Right? So it's not money. So what you're doing, yes. What are your checks like from this company? Yeah, so at first they were, I mean, I didn't expect anything at first. And so it's like the first check was like $700, and then the next one was like, you know, $1,000, and then, but it was like, I was a stay-at-home mom. I thought that was pretty good.

Right. And it seemed pretty easy at first. Like I was just talking to people. But then as time went on, I had to start like putting more money into the system. Because I had to, again, pay babysitter go to go to these retention events. Yeah. You know, I had to buy all this product myself.

Then there'd be like qualifications for things that your upline would be like, oh, just buy a couple extra sunscreens or something and then you'll qualify. And then there's a- And then you'll hit the level that you get the next thing. Exactly. Or you'll- Where are all these products?

Do you have like a room in your house or just like a store- Like a closet? Yes, like a closet. I mean, and they always say like, oh, you don't have to carry inventory and it's like every chick I know who's in an MLM has just closets full of their own products. Yeah. Because you are incentivized for purchasing it, you're incentivized for having it,

for all this stuff, for bonuses, all these things. So yeah, you qualify for a trip, and then you're given a stipend, and it's your tax on it, and I mean. And then you think, I got a seminar all day long, is it weird stuff or do you have celebrities there? Like, do you get invited to like certain dinners

for the top person? And if you're not, you have to eat in the room or what? Yes. You qualify for the parties. And again, this is another incentive along the way to get people to spend more money, right? Hey, if you buy this thing, if you sell this many things, if you recruit these many people,

you'll qualify for this like extra fancy super duper sparkle party or the bling suite or these stupid things that have like, you know, whatever, these names, right? And did you like all these women or what did you think they were kind of geeky or what? Like, I mean, I really liked the person I joined. I liked the people on my team. And the people you generally bring in to join you

are your friends and family. So those were my people anyways. They were great. Did you ever have to put pressure on somebody that was just like Emily, just please, this is just too much. I need to get a regular job. Tell me about that.

Yes. So actually, the friend who joined me, the first person to join me, and. Tell me about that. Yes. Actually, the friend who joined me, the first person to join me, and I do talk about this in the book. She, again, got a divorce, and she wasn't excelling as much as I was. So her paycheck's worn as big as mine, and so she had to get a real job. And at that point, I had drunk the Kool-Aid, pretty hard. And so I was like, why are you applying for a real job? Why not just put more into this? And that's one thing

MLMs do too, is they really malign 9-5s. Why are you working at a 9-5 when you could be your own boss babe and make your own hours and all that? Yeah. And what did she say? Oh, she, I mean, she was realistic. Like, I, you know, this doesn't have health insurance. This doesn't have, you know, a 401k, like, this isn't stable, right? But for me, who had a husband, who had all those things, like, that's not where my mind was. Oh, good point.

It was like, and that's why people who really are successful, which again, it's like a 0.00 percentage of people who are successful, they have a second income. They already have money. You know, there's nobody who's at the top who like came off the street, right? You already have to have a very significant amount of like financial, socioeconomic privilege to get in in the first place and to succeed. That is so interesting. Yeah.

A good friend of mine was, you know, got sucked into her friends MLM. Yeah. And I used the product too, but I was like, this is, you know, going nowhere. Yeah. And then that person, her husband was like, got diagnosed with cancer or whatever. And so she said, what can I do for you and your family? And she goes, just keep pushing the product or whatever, just keep working on your team,

just keep building. And when my friend told me that, I'm like, this is so wrong. Like, you're making 12 cents. I'm like, it's not like, this is, and you have another thing, but just, it's like, people will get sucked into it that do our professionals.

They do have professional careers and they're just like, yeah, okay, fine, you know. So then when did you start to realize, you know, that it's getting ugly and weird. Yeah, so I, I think there were things all along the way that I was like, but then you see. What's your husband thinking, first of all? So he was very much like, do what you wanna do.

Like good for you. And he saw like, I was happy and it seemed like I was doing well. So he was like, kind of like, that's cool. But he was very much not the boss babe husband. He was like not. What's a boss babe husband dream? Have you ever heard of retiring your husband? Have you ever heard that phrase?

Oh yes, I think I have seen this on these shows. Oh God, so retiring your husband is not retirement. It is like your husband quits his job and then joins you in the MLM. I remember this from the Lula. Yes, Lula Rich. Yes, yes. So then, and this is perfect for the MLM

because now you're screwed. Like you have to roll out. Yeah, you really can never get out. You have to rely on the income. And so, I mean, retirement is like sitting on a beach and going, you know, that's retirement is not shilling an MLM. So, but that's like the

goal it's it's aspirational to retire your husband and as I got higher up it was like why why why is your husband so working like it looks bad that your husband's still working that was the messaging and my husband's like fuck you like that's the no at that point how much are you making a year the most

I made in a month was $40,000. Okay. Well, this is significant. Yeah. And I never made like, I made that one month. Yeah. And the rest was, you know, it was like a kind of, when I was like, when it's just year then.

I mean, well, I talk about this in the book too, is on paper, you know, I made like $400,000. Yeah. But that's before taxes. So that's the other thing about MLMs. It's before taxes. It's before expenses, which are really high and Anything else any aside expenses like again like childcare or babysitters, you know additive things buying products

And so it was like cut in like a third right? So I mean still great for like a state-home mom But that there's a lot of this like mixed messaging where I was considered a million dollar earner because I had earned a million dollars over that period of time. But when you divide it up over a certain number of years, it's not that much per year, especially if you take out taxes.

And that's why all the posts are like, again, super aspirational, like, oh, I've become a millionaire, it's like, well, that's not really what millionaire means. Making a million dollars over six years, right? So, like, what came first? You watching cult documentaries or getting out? Yes. So, I, so the first thing that happened is I got sober.

Oh, okay. So, I stopped drinking. Now, why did you feel you need to stop drinking? It was a problem. And it was really exacerbated by the MLM. It was like something that was kind of already a problem. And then I all of a sudden had all these excuses to drink more. Because I was like going out with clients

and I was going to all these events and there was always champagne. And so I was drinking a lot more. And just it became a problem. So I quit drinking, beginning of 2017. And that's when I was like, lot more, it became a problem. So I quit drinking, beginning of 2017. And that's when I was like, uh-oh, I can't do all the things I've been doing. Like I couldn't send the cringy messages,

I couldn't do the cut and paste things, I couldn't put stuff. And the sober person you couldn't. Yes, it was like I was all of a sudden, like the beer goggles were clear. You were like, yeah, I had a beer head. Yeah, like I had totally drank away my intuition about me. Yeah.

And then I really started seeing things I didn't like. Like now how many years were you in it once you came sober? So, almost three. Okay. And at that point, I like hit the top. Like I was at the top of the pyramid. And I really believed at that point, like it was because of my hard work.

Like I really worked hard. But, And honestly, how many hours a day or a week, do you think you're putting forth, all the time you're on your phone looking? All the time. So, probably more than probably eight hours a day. Oh, easily, yeah.

Easily, because even when I was like with my family, or like the phone was always in my hand, I had to be so connected all the time. I was like at the back in call-call of if someone answered my DM, I'd write back. I was really, really just, I was in. I was very in. So that's one thing I noticed too,

is how much time I was on my phone. And I also started to see, like, okay, I had succeeded. I had achieved this like pinnacle, but nobody else I brought in had. And I really believed like, well, they must not be doing all the things until then I was sober and I was like, actually, they are. They're doing everything that I did, but it's not working for them and I started to see like, oh, mathematically, it doesn't work that way

because of saturation and now there's so many people in Seattle doing this. Yeah, and it can't work for everyone, and that's why I'm succeeding, because all of these people are paying in and they're not, and they're just continuing to pay in, this like sunk cost fallacy. Like nobody was succeeding, you know? And even the highest achieving people,

it was like they were making a few hundred dollars a month or something. And where is your girl that's ahead of you that initially invited you to the wine dinner from high school at this point? So I've actually surpassed her. Oh, okay. But she's making money off of me.

So like financially, she's doing great. Yeah. But I've surpassed her like entitled, right? So it's really like the goal is, you two could get a golden nugget, which is Emily. Yeah. Yep. Some of yours might be duds.

Yeah. Some of them may be rocks. Some of them you'll never hear from them again. Yeah. You only need a couple rock stars. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's why you never stop.

Yeah. That's why you never stop. You keep looking. Everybody you meet from the shoes. From the girls selling your shoes. To the dyeing your hair. To like, you know, out of cocktail party. Yep.

It's always on your mind to try to recruit somebody. Yes. Yes. So you're never off the clock. You're never off the clock. And you start getting so used to it that like you walk in somewhere and you're like, oh, she'd be really good. Oh, she'd be like, you start seeing people is like walking dollar signs, which again,

once I was sober, I was like, oh, that's gross, right? And then did you ever have anybody that would call you or share a sob story and then you still had to try to keep them in the game because you were so trained telling me about that. Yeah, like people who, again, weren't seeing success and they were feeling like they were spending more money than they were making. And so we'd have all these platitudinous saying,

like, well, you got to spend money to make money or that's just the rent on your business. Or again, you're like given all your spoon for all these things to say. And and it's hard because at that point, you're like, okay, I brought this friend in. I want them to do well. I believe I can do that. They can do well because I did. It's like that for so long, I really believed that this was the best thing for people. And then when I saw that it wasn't, and it wasn't working,

then I stuck around a lot longer than I think I would have because I felt guilty for roping so many people in. And so when did you actually say it out loud to your husband or whoever? Like, I feel gross about this, and I wanna get the fuck out. Yeah. So I wrote a book in 2019. So once I would say at the end of 2018, beginning of 2019, I started realizing like I want to get out. I want to be done with this. And so I kind of,

I told my team, I told my customers like, Hey, I don't like this anymore. Like here's what I used to believe. Here's what I believe now. You really are telling your people this? Yeah. And then get someone above you, get wind of it, and they're like, oh yeah, yeah. Like, this is like a Scientology, like, when a misgivage comes and knocks on your door or where? For sure.

It was very much like, don't quit. Like, okay, understand you're not happy, but do not quit. Because if I, as long as I'm still there, it doesn't really matter what I'm doing. I'm holding the pyramid in place, right? So my upline was like, I understand you feel that way. Totally fine.

Just tell your customers, I can help them out. I'll help your team. So I'm still there. I'm not posting anything. I'm not messaging anyone. I go into writing. I start going to recovery advocacy. That's what I'm doing.

And I thought, I'll just put this on autopilot and still collect a check till it dries up. That's what I'm doing. And I kind of thought, like, I'll just put this on autopilot and still, you know, collect a check till it dries up, right? That's what I thought. I didn't think I would actually, like, quit. And one thing she kept telling me was like, you built this. You should continue to make money off of it. And, like, I believed that to some extent.

And yet, also, I was like, it was just the circumstances. And like, it was luck, really really that I got in when I did. So that was all, you know, my book came out and then COVID happened. Yeah. And all of a sudden I was home. I was completely separated from the MLM. You know, we couldn't get together for anything. We couldn't go to conventions or anything.

So there was that separation. I started listening to the Dream Podcast. So the Dream Podcasts, I was just, we're talking about it. That is a really juicy when it came out a couple years ago What I liked about it is These people did like deep-dum investigations on all these different MLMs Yeah, from like Mary K to Tupperware to some that were like from the 80s Yeah, and like they were never there aunt did it and I I mean, I don't know if I listed everything up

So I listed a lot and I It was really eye-opening about how you sell the dream and how some people really get screwed over. Some are funny and it's kind of a funny. Over that time, my mom joined an MLN. It's not all tragic, but some of it gets to a tragedy point. Okay, so go on. So I listened to that. And honestly, I don't know who recommended it to me.

I don't know how it came into my, you know, I was skeptical, right? And so I thought, well, listen to this. And I was kind of listening because I wanted to prove that my MLM was different, which is something that a lot of people do, especially if they see this book, they're like, oh, well, my MLA is not like that. But like spoiler, they're all the same.

So I started listening and I'm like, well, that's exactly the same. You know, we do that too. And the next one, exactly the same. And there were so many parallels. So then I started kind of diving deeper. And the other thing that was happening was, there was a lot of just really predatory behavior

during the pandemic. Like, what? Like, all of these women who are like, hey, you lost your job. Join this MLM or use your stimulus money for stimulus money. There was a lot of that. Actually, one that checks would be dropped. They'd be like, hey, today would be a great day to like DM 30 people. Yeah, exactly.

People can join you. We had scripts. It was actually, the FTC actually cracked down and like gave fines to companies because they were doing this. And also, there was a lot of product misinformation like, buy our essential oil and it will cure COVID or use our immune booster. And so there was a lot of that just medical misinformation. So that was, I was like, I can't be involved in that. And then there was a lot of PPP loan fraud. So, you know, it was the paycheck protection. So, like, say, if you,

you know, podcasting, like, went under and you had to pay your employee. And so it was like, you know, helping you pay your employees. That's what it was meant for. MLM reps were excluded from it. Like, you could not do it if you were an MLM rep. But plenty of people did. So if you search any company, like you can search Pepper Jeff or Modere or any MLM company and you'll see people come up who took out money with the parent company name to like pay themselves. And there was just so much at that point.

And I was still hitting the top title of the company. So here I was doing Jack Shit. I was doing nothing. And I was so grossed out by everything. And yet I was still achieving. And my team was still grinding and not achieving. And so at that point, I was like, I'm out. And I fully just terminated my account.

And how did you do that? I just had to send in a little form, the sign of form, and what about the girl ahead of you? She was not thrilled about it. But she still gets money from the people that love you that stay. So they rolled up to her. Yeah, they rolled up to her. So now she has the title I had. Yeah. But if you see on social media it's like all based on her hard work and everything and not because her team rolled up. And then at that point, she was like, well, who cares? I'm going to get your people anyway.

Yeah. So maybe sometimes people do want you to leave. Oh, yeah. And there's definitely like buying out your downline or there's people like, like basically you have someone who is like a me who is like in the way and you could have people direct to you who are working. Who are into it still. Yes and so that would make your title higher and you know you can basically pay them money so they leave. Oh are you bummed you didn't get paid? No because I knew in fact she offered. Oh she. And I- I was she offered.

because I knew, in fact, she offered. Oh, shoot. And I. I was she offered. Like $80,000. Okay. Yeah. And at that point, I was like, I don't, I knew I wanted to talk about it. So I didn't want to have to like sign an NDA.

Oh, got it. Or anything like that. So I'm like, no, I'm good. I'm just gonna. And so like, what have you, what are some of the response of people knowing that you're writing about this? Maybe they're still in something like this,

maybe they're recovering, maybe they really love it and are pissed, like are you hearing from everybody or what did you get mostly? So it was really at first when I quit and then when I published the announcement that my book was coming out. It was like, oh my God, how could you do this? This is such a betrayal.

So basically anyone in the MLM kind of couldn't talk to me anymore. But there are a lot of people in who are like, oh my gosh, thank you for doing this. Like, I see this, I see this, this is gross, this is gross. But they're still involved. But in the last few days, what's been interesting is a lot of MLM people are like, oh my gosh,

I love the book, it's so good. I can't share it on social media because my upline will be pissed, or the company will be pissed, or whatever. So I think there's a lot in here that if you're in an MLM, you will totally relate to, and I think it's important too, to know, like there's different ways to do things.

Like they're, yeah, and we were trying to get the celebrity aspects, which I thought was really interesting, because there are some of these products that I'm like, why is this real housewife selling this? And explain why that, why they, that happens because I thought that was weird, but then you, you made sense when we talked about it off air, tell me. So if you're a celebrity, you have an immediate following. You have all these people who are willing to do whatever to be in proximity with you. So if you join an MLM and they can join to, they're gonna join you. They're gonna do whatever you're doing. So it's like, oh, I'm gonna pay $500 so I can talk on the phone with the celebrity. I can

say I'm on her team. Like there's gonna be people who just pay the money just to be close to that celebrity. And so, like, the real housewives, you know, the Galle Husson, sister wives, you know, like Britney Spears mom, like, there's a lot of people that did it. That did it, yeah. Because they have an instant following. Right, yeah.

I remember, there was like a, there was this woman who did with the valvictorian not valvictoid the college speech what do you call the commencement speech? commencement speech yeah and one of the schools I went to and I was like what did this girl get picked you know it's just because she like worked she was like lawyer and like worked for like Hillary Clinton or something and it was a really boring speech. And then afterwards, because we were there because somebody, my friend's daughter was graduating,

afterwards we were getting hit up as alumni, because she was also part of a cosmetic MLM. Oh, God. And I'm like, really? Yeah. Like this is the commencement speaker. I mean, I was just like, who went there to for her own gain of like, oh, now I'm in these Facebook groups of this, you know, alumni, I have a bunch of women that, you know, are,

you know, social and fun and have, you know, some money and some brains and like, yeah, it's a perfect totally. And you're told to do that. Like, join affinity groups, join moms groups, join whatever biking groups if you're into that and so in then friend people. So like you're always looking to like increase your network and then those people see you post about your stupid products and it's yeah. What about when somebody comes in there like my husband says I can't do this anymore because

I haven't made any money and I've already put $12,000 into it and you know we fight about it and what would be your party line to say to that person. I have heard people tell their down mine to threaten divorce because of not being supportive. So that's considered not supportive, right? Like oh you don't believe in what I do. So like you're a suppressed person that's not in college. Yes, yes.

So it's really seen as like, well, you don't support me. You don't love me. So there's scripts around that. Here's something to say. Like, one more month, then we'll qualify for this. Or this is how it's improving my life, or whatever. There's ways to talk around every single objection. Yeah.

Yeah. I think in the Lou, is it Lularo, Lularo, yeah. Lularo, I think in that one was where, or one of the docs or something, where they were like open a credit card line without your husband's knowledge, or like do all these things behind your husband's back, financially, to stay in it. And I do think a girlfriend called, whether it's an MLM or just, it can be really bad. You know, like even if it's just like, I have this thing I've talked about this show before,

where people with one moon wrote a book of how she's like, you know, all these women for so many years that would tell their girlfriends at brunch, kick them to the curb, you could do better. Come on girl. It's seen as supportive, but in some ways it's like holding people back because it's like why Wait a minute, you know who else is out there lady? Take a minute. I don't know like just so it's a weird thing And then you're always like well my girlfriend said and yeah, you know, and now you not only have one girl from it You have like several that are you know saying your husband's a dick. Yep, and now you not only have one girl from it, you've

like several that are, you know, saying your husband's a dick. Yep. And so you're in, that's why it's culty, right? Yeah. Because then you're in this environment where everyone's saying the same thing, doing the same thing, you feel like it's supportive. You feel like these are the supportive people. So anyone out here, even if it's your mom, even if it's your husband, who is not like

believing in you, is gonna feel like they're wrong. And you're right. Yeah. Were there mother daughter teams? Oh, totally. There were mother daughter teams. There were teams of like entire families. There was a lot of that.

We talked a little bit about this, but was there some real red flags, aha moments that you were just like, I cannot. Yeah, there were red flags all along the way. Like they're easy to see looking back, of course. Yeah. But a lot of the, like, you're not allowed to be negative. So it's this toxic positivity of, you know, you have your team

Facebook page where everyone who's in your downline is on there. And nobody's allowed to complain because if you complain that might spread. And you're told what to post on social media. You have a list of things you can and can't post about. And you're told not to be like. What can you cannot post about? Well, you are given certain pictures you can post in certain language you can post

because you don't want to. Certain pictures that you take with your family are like actual stills. Well, yeah, like of products and stuff like that. Right, that are like approved. And then you can't make income claims technically, but like every post you see really isn't income claim. It's like, oh, I'm on this trip.

Look at me. Shopping, yeah. I'm working from the beach. Like that is still an income claim. Yeah. But one of the really culty things is like, you know, don't be negative, don't post on social media about like how much you hate your job. Don't post about that your skin is bad because people will think it's the products. Don't post anything

like politically because you'll alienate half your audience. So like you're not allowed to even be a person, you're this caricature of the MLM, especially the higher you get, you're like representing the company in a way that you can't even be yourself. I mean, were you so freaked out when you saw about the murder of the guy, the Colorado, I can't remember the name. Yes. The Colorado man, he murdered his wife and two daughters and she was hardcore in the MLM.

She just come back from a trip from Phoenix and her product was a thrive and it was like energy, vitamins, patches to like kill, make your mood, and everything was about image, and even possibly having that third child was something that looked like the ultimate success and perfect family that you have two girls, and now he gets a boy. And when they, that documentary, when they show about, um, quick, you just look at that crime, so I know the names and the documentary, Because I know people are gonna be asking for it. But the guy was cute and she was cute, and they were living beyond their means, and he had like a steady job, but like kind of a capped kind of salary, and then she was doing all

this, and she was getting so into it that that was causing them to be a lot in debt. But everything on her social media was exactly what they told her to do. How to present this image. The Chris Shenan Watts. Yeah. Shenan, Shenan Watts, was it Shenan? Shenan, yeah. Shenan and Chris Watts and then Chris Watts, even when she films, Tallinn Kim, that she's

pregnant. And at this point, we know that she's already, I think he already had a girlfriend at that point. Oh, it's the show's suburban nightmare. And I mean, there's a lot on it, but it is, if you're not that familiar or you want to revisit, it is like, I really think that had so, I mean, granted nothing makes so many murder,

there are wife and kids, but it was an element to their story of this perfect life and not really being honest with each other and not being sucked into this whole thing. Yeah, and I mean, the entire documentary is like because she had so much on social media. That, you know, she had, she had posted, and that's what you have to do.

You have to your entire life, like your whole image is the company. And you've got to go in your stories all the time because you've got to stay relevant and you've got to show your kids. And that's one thing I started to get really uncomfortable with. Again. Well, they encourage you to show your kids. Oh, yeah. You're very encouraged, you know, because if you just post like products, you know, you

want people to join you. It's you that you want, like you're selling yourself. Right. So it's almost like this weird influencer thing, but you're not an influencer. You're selling for this MLM. And I didn't like constantly having to be on stage and put my kids on stage.

And it's like anywhere I went, I'd have to take a picture. And I do, that's one thing that I, you know, stopped doing. And, you know, looking back at it now, like when Facebook memories pop up, it's just like, God, it's so sad that I felt like I had to be behind the camera instead of like enjoying what I was doing because it was all to post this aspirational stuff to get people to join. Yeah, I mean, even, you know, with my business as a communion, a podcast or because it was all to post this aspirational stuff to get people to join. Yeah, I mean, even with my business as a comedian, a podcaster and everything,

social media is such a big part of it. And I'm really grateful I couldn't do it without it. I mean, there's a reason why we can do all these things because we have that. But yeah, I mean, there's times where now, I'm like, look, I know that we got to get at least one photo. So I'm like, look, I know that we gotta get at least one photo. So I'm like, the minute the party starts or whatever, I'm like, let's take the photo.

Do it now. And then I go, I'll look at these later tonight. I'll send you something if you like them. And I'm like, that's it. Because I'm like, I want to enjoy them a moral day party, but I also am not stupid. And if my friend who's a comedian is also going to be on my show next week, yeah, and we do it for each other, we have to post, you know,

but I think about just like a regular mom that's now sucked into this. And where their kids are a thing like my kids, I really never featured my kids much. When they were really little, I didn't because I thought that was weird and then I was like, God I should have exploited them more. Then I was like, then they were like not into it. Now they don't care. No, they don't care. So if there's something funny that's happening, I'm like, okay, fine. You can ask. Right. They're not enough that you can ask. I think it's with little kids and stuff like they don't have your, yeah, your like, they don't stuff, they can't give you a permission.

And I use pictures of my kids in my convention presentations to make it cute. And now I'm just like, you were like a speaker. You were that, and what was your speech like? So this is the other thing that happens. Once I got sober, MLMs are all about the sob story, right? They're all about like, I don't care if drinking wasn't that bad. Oh God, it was really bad. I'll

give you my first book and then you can read that and you'll be like, yep, you were like, you had like blackout. Oh yeah, yeah. Okay. I was a, yeah. Okay. And nobody else really knew how bad it was. It was because you were like, I went to places and there was champagne. I'm like, I don't even get buzzed off champagne. Oh, no. You don't even know what you're talking about. But I drank before and after, I drank a lot. Okay.

So the other thing that happened was, yeah, so the convention story, okay. So sob stories are a big thing. Like, and because, like, the reason I joined. Same with getting like American Idol or a America's Got Town. They always want you to have a story about your dad had cancer or you lost a limb or some people never thought you'd be able to speak and now you can sing.

Or even my, I was a sad state home mom and now I have this business, right? That was yours. Well, no, it was until I got sober. And then the company's like, ooh, you've got this great story. You got sober and you overcame so much. So then that became part of the stick of,

this business was brought into my life and led me to people who helped me get sober. And now I'm nine months sober or whatever, I was asked to speak about it. And it's really hard because I felt very honored and your taught in early recovery, like B of service, share your story. For me, I was like, okay, that's what I'm doing, but it was done in a way that was very, I felt exploited.

I felt like my story was exploited. As time went on, I didn't want to that, and I couldn't do that anymore. So yeah, I was a speaker at convention, I was like a keynote speaker, and you know, was everybody knew who I was, I was like the corporate darling. And so when you, a couple of questions, so speaking of the corporate darling, there is a, like I was watching Real House as a Salt Lake City. Yeah, and her husband I believe was like an executive with some type of MLM. Okay. Um, Whitney roses. And then they let him go because they did this

ridiculous scene where they were in their underwear like putting paint on each other's naked bodies. And they said, this is the image of this, like Mormon, MLM, whatever thing. So, is there ever a place where someone like you that would be offered because you're such a great speaker? You know, now we will buy your upline, but we want you to make $2.50,,300,000 a year and just be an executive. Are there those people?

Yeah, I mean, they're all corporations. Right. MLMs are all corporations. And the people, you know, the CEO, CFO, the VP, like, they're making lots of money. Okay. And it's, you know, that a few people at the top of the pyramid, the contractors are making money and everybody else is grinding. Right? So, it wouldn't be whov them to offer me a corporate position when I'm already grinding, like I'm selling the dream, right?

Yeah. So it's not that they couldn't, it's just like they wouldn't. Yeah. Yeah, that's where they want people is in the pyramid. There's only room for a couple of corporate people, but yeah, everyone else is a contractor. Okay. Yeah. So when you did leave, did you lose followers and stuff? Did they, all the people that were under you like weird?

Oh yeah, I mean, there were some people who were like, so between leaving and like announcing I was writing a book. Yeah. A lot of people were more understanding. And then when I wanted to talk about it, little less understanding. So yeah, I wanted to talk about it, little less understanding. So yeah, it was like, you can't talk to Emily anymore. Unfriend, blah.

They were told that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And was that hard? Yes and no. Because I feel like I had a very long period of exiting and I had talked to a lot of people about it. So I had my people. Like the friends I brought in are still my friends, even the friends who are still in,

you know, still my friends, you know, I have friends who are still at the very top, who, you know, again, like it didn't change our friendship. But by and large, most people, you know, they can't talk to me anymore because what I'm saying is like they can't listen to what I'm saying and still do what they're doing, right? Like it's in direct opposition.

And when, so when you start watching these shows about real religious cult as well as MLMs, because I say I sort of got, I think Netflix alone just like kind of killed organized religion to some extent for people. You see enough of these things and you're like, what the hell have I been fed? And same thing with something like MLMs.

Do you feel that have you had people that are like calling from a closet? I'm just like, I wanna get out. I don't know what to do. I've had so many people reach out, so many people that, I mean, when I announced the book, I was like, it was very validating because I knew I'd get a bunch of hate, like, hate mail, you know, and it was mostly people were like, oh my gosh, I, you know, this happened

to me, this happened to me. And since the book has come out, which it's been, you know, a day, it's just been all positive messages. Like I could have written this part of your story. I could have written this. I was so embarrassed for getting involved. You know, it ruined this relationship, it ruined this relationship.

People don't talk to me anymore. And people don't talk to people because they sucked them in to something that turned out not to be profitable for them. And then they're blamed for it. So that's the really crap you're playing about. The point of it, yeah, you're right. It's like, it's like, it's white, white, sometimes people are like,

oh, do you have a good pool contractor? And I'm like, yeah, but I don't know if he'll be good for you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're certain it's the same thing over referring someone. So this is like the ultimate referral. You refer, further into a career that costs them money.

And then they referred people. So it's like, yeah, you are the one to blame if it didn't work. And the, you know, the statistics on it's like, yeah, you are the one to blame if it didn't work. And the statistics on it, most people will never make a dime. And you're just so willing not to look at that because, again, you trust this friend who's, and you think, well, she made it so I can make it too. You just have that hope. But it's really hard because you also, you develop these friendships. And then when you leave,

it's sometimes people stay in because the known is easier than the unknown. It's like, I'd rather stay in and lose money than leave and lose friendships. Or I'd rather, you know what I mean, like that. Yeah, and I also really had to also really sad when they go after like military wives and, oh totally.

And even Mormon moms and stuff, because it's especially with Mormon moms, it's you know, encouraged that you stay home with your kids and everything. So this is the perfect thing. And also they just, they're used to rejection. You know, if they have to go on that to your mission, trying to knock on doors and recruit people,

like that's why I think they are successful business people because nothing bothers them. They just keep chugging along. So I'm like, yeah, no wonder it's successful for you or whatever. Well, and there's a reason that there's a lot of MLM people in church communities. Because if you're in a church community,

go to town, whatever you want to believe or do, it's great. But they're already their own closed environments. And so if you're worshiping, believing in proximity with these people who are doing the same thing, and then all of a sudden they're selling you know, college inputting or whatever, like you're more likely to be, you're more vulnerable to that. So when my kid was like little, I just remember we'd had like some activity and sometimes there was this mom there. And she was just like, you

know Heather, I've been thinking about you, I'm been thinking about how much you travel. And I really want you to try like this vitamin thing. I think you will absolutely love it. And it was something that I think I heard my friend talk about, I'm like, is this an amulam? And my friend was like, yes, but I don't sell it,

but I did buy it and I do like it. And I mean, she was harassing me so much that I was like, all right, I'm just gonna give her $200, yes but i don't sell it but i did buy it and i do like it and i mean she was harassing me so much that i was like alright i'm just gonna give her two hundred dollars because i just i honestly i can't keep going back to this thing yeah and then my house i was like new that my husband would be like what the fuck you don't even take vitamins what are you talking about like whatever it is

so i finally was just had to be really firm and i'm like no i'm not interested and whatever it is. So I finally just had to be really firm and I'm like, no, I'm not interested. And I mean, you know, that's the rejection whenever. But I was like, oh, she was probably so excited to try to say like, I did what you told me boss babe. And I got the nerve to talk to this mom. And like, and I've been approached so many times like in my life to join churches to join Mary K. I remember this other thing that was like I remember this this was so long ago someone called me and was like I have to tell you about this thing Donald Trump's involved in it and it's a way that you could talk of the phone and look at the person at the same

time. This was like that way the perfect time yeah and and and I was like that way before FaceTime. Yeah, and and and and I was like, well that's never gonna happen And I was like, oh, this is just some weird whatever and then we were supposed to meet because I liked her anyway And I was like kind of curious about the weird thing and then she flaked and never brought it up again So I'm like she must have gotten out but she was one of those people that was always kind of doing those serial joiner things that you go. That those things that you would hear about. And yeah, I mean, I think it's all just like fascinating. I think so many people like want to have friends in a community, and that's sad too, that they're like,

and I think it's really must be really sad when you do finally say, like, no, I'm not in it, or I don't want it. And then, like, I remember this one girl that was don't want it. And then, I remember this one girl that was doing the Mary Kay. And we both had a job after college, and her mom was a big Mary Kay person. And she was like, I'm an acquit, and just do Mary Kay. And I was like, all right, and then she took me into the brunch,

and it was the woman got up there, and she's like, the way I live my life is God first, then my family or my husband and Mary came here. And then it career, yeah. And I was like, well, I don't even have a boyfriend, but like I do believe in God, so maybe this is for me, you know what I'm like? I just like, yeah, you'll make it mean

whatever it needs to be, right? And then she was like, what do you think? I'm like, I don't know, she goes, well, you know what they say? If you wake up in the morning and you're still thinking about it, then it's meant to be. Well, of course, you're going to wake up in the morning and still think about it. But I was thinking about like, God, you're out of here.

And I was like, and then back then, you had to really keep the product. Oh, yeah. And my friend was like gorgeous and organized. And she had a whole second room in her apartment that was like, she made it a store. And because then you would like get a call from a client or whatever. Yeah bring it over. Bring it over.

Oh I remember the one like I just had a client say hey I'm going on a big beach vacation I need this this this that I just made you know this amount of money and so I always thought you really were making money like actually selling the products but now we really know the truth about it that you really don't money, like actually selling the products, but now we really know the truth about it, that you really don't make any real money unless you're hitting so many people under you. But then I just thought about it. Once I told that girl, like, no, I'm not interested,

but then she had a party at my apartment. And my crazy friend acted like she was interested and kind of wasted her time and then wasn't. And she was like annoyed. She never called me again. She got what she needed out of you. She got your network. Like she got your people that you didn't find.

You think she enjoyed me? No, like she probably did. She probably did, but that's how you see people, right? Right, yeah. It's like she got what she needed out of you at the time and then she had to go on to the next person because you have to or you're not gonna make money. The only time I felt that was when I was starting as a stand-up and I needed people to come to the show

in order for me to perform. But that's different. And I would say something funny is it? And then I'd say something funny and then they'd be like, oh, you're so funny, I'd be like, wanna come to see me at the comedy store at 830 in the belly room? And then I'd like get their number

and then call them a few times. And then once they would come, and I was like, oh thanks for coming. And then they would want to be friends. And then I was like, well, I don't really need anymore friends. And I'm doing the same routine tonight. So you're no use to me.

It's, but it's selling a service or a product is different than an MLM. Like even like selling this book, that's one of the feedback, like the negative feedback. It's like, oh well now you're selling a book and making money off of this thing. It's like, that's what being an author is. Like hello.

I don't think a book is available. No, but like you're providing a service, you're inviting people one time. You're not asking people to pay you to train them to be comedians. And then to pay you to train them to be comedians. And then asking them to go get people to be comedians. That's a totally different thing. You're inviting people to be entertained.

How weird if that was a new MLN. Oh, God. Get five people to teach. I mean, there are classes and stuff like that to do standards. But again, that's different. You're having an experience. You're right. It's like there's really nothing like this,

except like a church situation where you're expected to pay a certain amount of year and always go and recruit people. Yeah, and if you leave, like, I think that's the biggest sign if something is like, you know, not on the up and up. What happens when you leave? Yeah. If I were to say to you, like, oh, I tried being a comedian,

it wasn't for me. You wouldn't be like, you're dead to me. I can't talk to you anymore. You would have been say to you, like, oh, I tried being a comedian, it wasn't for me. You wouldn't be like, you're dead to me. I can't talk to you anymore. You would have been like, yeah, it's hard. But I say, oh, you're not in the MLM anymore, Heather, I can't. It becomes such a part of your identity. We can't interact anymore. When your friend had that party and that friend didn't sign up like that was the end, right?

Of your relationship. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I just realized that. I really didn't know why she stopped calling me. Yeah. I know. But I didn't want to sell Marrikay and then neither did the one friend that was lost enough

that maybe would. Yeah. Yeah. And it's sad. And she's, you know, like she's, who knows if she's still in or whatever, but like, she'll come to realize that one day, like, oh god, I just let kind of use people as, like, you know, numbers. People were numbers.

It's a numbers game. You're told that so often that you really just believe that, like talk to one person and they say no. And you think a lot of people were like fake friends too. Oh god, yes. Like acting like you really wanted to be at the person's baby shower and stuff? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

I think it's just getting to know as many people as you can. Like, even going to an exercise class and like starting up a conversation, I remember being told like anytime you're on an airplane, make sure you talk to the person next to you, make sure you have samples in your person, you know, get their info. Yes, everything is about getting contacts. I mean, all that is like, I get it, but also again, you're never off the clock. Never.

It's always just in your head. And then if you don't do it, then you feel guilt that you didn't do it. And you're blamed for it. So that's again, that's like, you can make it if you work hard, which is not true because nine, you know, I'm 0.7% people don't.

And if you don't, then you can be blamed for it. Well, you must not have worked hard enough. You must not have talked to enough people. You must not have whatever, fill in the blank. You can always say it's someone else's fault. What about people that are serial MLMers? Yeah, like join one and then join another. Yeah, and then everyone's just like,

but God, stay away from that check from high school. Yeah. I mean, they just have hope that like it wasn't that company, that the next thing is gonna be different. And they're searching for something. Like I was like lots of people are, and I think that's where you have to step back and say like, what are you looking for?

Like if you're that friend who's got the annoying friend, just say, what are you looking for when you join these? How does this usually go for you? Not great. Are you looking for a community? Let me help you find a different way. Let's join a meetup group or something. Play Pickleball.

I don't care. Don't buy into something that has failed you so many times. Are you looking for money? Let's look at actual jobs or actual stay-, like, you know, virtual assistant or something like that. Like there is a way to fulfill whatever your, whatever that need is when MLM's just constantly. It's that sunk cost fallacy. Like it's gonna work out this time.

I've already put in this much money. I might as well put in more. Well, I am excited to take this book on my trap, going to Hawaii to join an MLL show. It's a special Hawaiian trip. No, it's Hayhahn by Emily Lynn Paulson. Tell everybody where they can also follow you as well on social media. Yeah, I'm everywhere on Emily Lynn Paulson and you can get the book anywhere a book

star sold. And you have your other book too? Yes, yeah, highlight reel. So you can find that on my website also. Oh great, yeah. Okay, thanks girl, thanks for having me. Thanks for having me.