Kermode & Mayo’s Take - Best and Worst Films of the Year & More

Episode Date: December 26, 2024

It’s Boxing Day, but we’ve got more than just leftovers in today’s show—we're just as stuffed full of gourmet goodies as we hope you are right now... A fresh new guest interview this week with RaMell Ross, director of the awards-tipped ‘Nickel Boys’. Based on the Pulitzer prize winning novel by Colson Whitehead, it follows the growing friendship between two boys in racially segregated 1960s Florida, Ellwood and Turner, who find themselves unwillingly enrolled in an abusive reform school. Simon sits down with RaMell to talk about his innovative filmmaking approach—and we think you’ll be hearing plenty more from him in the future... Reviews of ‘Better Man’, the Robbie Wiliams biopic from ‘Greatest Showman’ director Michael Gracey that chronicles the pop superstar’s infamous monkeying around by making him an actual chimp; ‘The Order’, the 80s-set thriller starring Jude Law as a neo-Nazi-hunting FBI agent; and ‘How To Make Millions Before Grandma Dies’, the Thai comedy-drama in which broke university dropout M cozies up to his ailing grandmother in the hope of inheriting her massive fortune. Plus Mark’s top 5 films of the year—and bottom 5 cinematic stinkers too. (JEM is this correct—these in this episode?) Merry Christmas one and all—wishing you much festive film-watching... Review: How To Make Millions Before Grandma Dies – 08:20 Interview: RaMell Ross – 17:15 Review: The Order – 33:09 Review: Better Man – 40:06 You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey Mark, I found that I've been thinking recently about merch. Merch? Yes, merchandise, especially all those goodies we have for sale online, you know, branded mugs, t-shirts, water bottles, you name it. The torch, the director's chair, the full works. I wish someone had told me about Shopify, the all-in-one commerce platform to start, run and grow your own business. I know all about that. So Shopify is the commerce platform revolutionising millions of businesses

worldwide, whether you're selling herrings or Harrington jackets with the take logo on the back. Shopify simplifies selling online and in person so you can successfully grow your business. Shopify even gets you selling across social media marketplaces like Facebook, Instagram and TikTok with industry leading tools. Get Shopify today. Sign up for a £1 per month trial period. Can't we fix this? Shopify.co.uk slash. Curmode. All lowercase. All lowercase. I mean, what is wrong with Kermode and Mayo? Why can't it be Mayo just for once? It's easier to spell Curmode. They've gone for Shopify.co.uk slash, let's say it together, Kermode. And a very happy Boxing Day to you, young fella, my lad, down there in Narnia.

Did you have a lovely Christmas? Yeah. How was yours? Well, I can't remember any of it. Which is strange. It's almost as though it hasn't happened yet. Did you find that there was a moment that you stopped everything and watched Wallace and Gromit

Vengeance Most Foul? Of course. That is what everyone has done. It's the family you can bring. Hopefully grandparents, parents, kids of all ages were all gathered there. And it is fantastic just reflecting on all of that, that there are still films being made that everybody can watch together.

Because I'm sure that you used to all gather around and watch Top of the Pops, that kind of thing. But that kind of media world has disappeared. Fine, that doesn't bother me. But at Christmas, it is nice that there's something to watch other than Mrs. Brown's Boys. I've never watched Mrs. Brown's Boys. And I don't think there's ever going to be a moment when I would do. By the way, just before we forget everything from our theatre show, back at the Prince

Edward, I got away with something which I don't believe anybody spotted. Although it did happen on stage. Someone in the audience might have spotted it. Fortunately, none of the production team did. What was that? And that is that as we finished the first half, that's when it happened. So we just said, okay, we'll be back in a moment. So right back to disappear to the bar. When I put on the shirt that I was wearing, it did feel slightly uncomfortable. But anyway, I pulled up the sleeve on my left, I was just rolling up my sleeve on the on my left arm. And out of it came a pair of underpants. I should say they were mine.

Yes. And that was the key detail because you said to me, I've just found a pair of underpants in my sleeve. And my first question was, are they yours? And when you said yes, you said, okay, that's all right. In that case, you can relax. But how does, I'm not sure how that happens. Well, because it happens because they will have got put in the wash. You would have put a whole bunch of clothes in the wash. Yeah, but I put the shirt on. I put my sleeve, put my arm in the sleeve. Yeah.

And it's, and it was anyway, I'm just glad no one noticed. Maybe your underpants are very, do you wear like a thong? Is it just they're very flimsy? Okay, let's start the show on our Boxing Day Spectacular. What are you going to be reviewing a little bit? We've got lots of Boxing Day shout outs, by the way. People just want dedications. If we could then play something Christmassy, that would be fine.

But do some Boxing Day shout outs. What else? What are you going to be doing? Well, there are new films opening, which is obviously traditional for Boxing Day. So we have reviews of How to Make Millions for Grandma Dies, The Order, and Better Man, and Better Man, probably not a Better Man, and Better Man, all in take one. And we've got Mark's best and worst films of the year. And our guest is going to be Rommel Ross, director of hotly tipped film, and out next

week called The Nickel Boys. So Tipped Film and out next week called The Nickel Boys. So you'll be reviewing that next week, but the interview is going to be this week. That's correct. Also, in extra takes, Spirited Away, a re-release. One Frame Back is related to The Order, Mark recommending some further watching related to Nazi hunting, though there is an absolute clear winner. There's only actually one film that can be considered there, so that's the end of that. And we're striking a blow for

reasonable centrism in a polarized world, and we're going to give you the OK films of the year. No one else is offering you this. We've asked you for your solid three and a half star specials that do not break boundaries, that do not push the medium forward. They're just all right if you like that sort of thing, which as you said many times is the essence of film criticism. Yes, exactly. And some questions answered as best we can in question. Shmessians, you can get all that via Apple podcast or head to extra takes.com for non-fruit related devices, seven day free trial. Amazingly, that will take you into February. And if you're already a Vanguard

Easter, as always, we salute you. Shout out Angus Warburg on Blue Sky. Please can have a shout out to both sides of my extended family. I'll be spending Christmas with mom's side, including cousin Sarah, and then meeting with dad's lot for lunch on the 27th. And to mom, dad, and James, of course. Alan McGregor, can I please get a happy Boxing Day birthday shout out to my wife Lorna, who along with me will be on day three of staying at her elderly parents and we'd be glad of the light relief provided by some wittertainment. Alan in Glasgow, thank you Alan. Mike Pembroke, shout out to the

Pembrokes please in Leafy East, Ilseley. We love your show, very much enjoyed the Christmas live show at the Prince Edward Theatre. He's behind you, etc. Dear good doctors, I'd love a shout out please for my good best only lady, the great doctor her indoors, Sarah. Sarah's favorite film of all time is the truly awful Bride Wars. She once admitted this to Mark at the wonderful Hyde Park Picture House in Leeds, or maybe I grasped her up. I can't remember. Anyway, we've had a tough year health-wise, but our seven-year-old Jarvis, our rock, loves

going to the cinema with us. His favorite film of the year is Paddington in Peru. But then his first ever visit to the cinema was to see Paddington 2 seven years ago. It was a baby screening, so he clearly got his good taste there. For what it's worth, my favorite film of the year is The Substance, which is the correct answer. Happy Christmas to both your fantastic team, especially the great redactor and so on. Thanks for all the cinematic joy your team brings to the household.

Thank you, Shane Ewen. Dear, cheeses for the meeses? Is that for us meeses? Cheeses for us meeses? Jesus for us meeses. What is that? Cheese for mice. Jesus for the meeses. All right. And the great redactor, in this case should be referred to old Joe the Spider. Although the way this looks on the typeface is, oy, Joe the Spider. I've now been in my communication role with the UK's biggest telecommunications provider for two and a half years. This Christmas, I'd love to give my boss, known for reasons of professional anonymity

as the Glaswegian one, a shout out. Truthfully, he's become a close friend as well as a boss, and I have the two of you to thank for helping me to get to my current job. In a meeting a very long time ago, he made a reference to an old Wittertanism and I resorted, wait, did you just make the most obscure reference to Kermit O'Meara's podcast, the biggest film review show on UK airwaves? Yes, he replied and followed up with, I assume you're now going to say hello to Jason Isaacs. And the rest is history, including my joining the team and to us making as many references to Whittalaw in meetings as possible.

Very good. So to Graham P, the Glaswegian legend, I'd love to ask for a Christmas shout out and to wish him and his gorgeous family nothing but the best in 2025. This is from Catherine Morel. So thank you very much indeed. So shout outs all accomplished. I think that's right. And so for everybody, let's play Slade.

Actually, we'll have to edit that one out because we don't have the rights. Very good. That's right. And so for everybody, let's play Slade. Actually, we'll have to edit that one out because we don't have the rights. Very good. So having done all the shout outs and played Slade, I said, to be honest, nobody wants to hear Slade anymore. Not on, not on Boxing Day, do they? No, that's it. You, you, you could, you can play. So here it is Merry Christmas right up until Christmas Day. And then you have to stop. Yeah. Then you have to stop on the 19th of December.

Okay, so tell us about, because although it's Boxing Day, the 21st of December, it's quite appropriate to go and see a new movie. Just like to point out to everybody, the reason Simon is doing this is that Simon Mayo and Simon Poole have been ribbing me mercilessly about the fact that I'm not quite sure what the date of Christmas is. And they've taken this as a joke to run withly about the fact that I'm not quite sure what the date of Christmas is. They've taken this as a joke to run with despite the fact that I don't find it funny. I find it deeply upsetting that I'm getting to stop it. Anyway, just play grand bullying. That's all it is. Okay. Right. How to make millions before grandma dies, which is a bittersweet tie. what's the word, dramedy from director and co-writer Pat Munitypat. The other writer is Thodsupon

Tinakorn. Usha Simkum is Mingju, who is a 79-year-old grandmother who wishes to be buried in a very expensive burial plot when she dies. She has a college dropout grandson, M, who spends his days playing video games. When she has a fall, she goes to hospital. The family then discover that, in fact, she's very ill and she only has a short time to live. There's a thing that they say, well, let's not tell her. But they spire potentially lucrative opportunity. M decides, oh no, I'll move in with her. Obviously obviously the suggestion is I'll move in with her because then when she dies, I'll inherit things like the house. And at first they don't get along.

She criticizes everything he does. He understands absolutely nothing she does. But gradually during the course of the movie, they start to bond, even as the fractures in the rest of the family are laid bare. And this all sort of ties up with why it is that she particularly wants a burial spot that can be visited because that's part of the ongoing plot. The film became a domestic sensation. There was an internet meme of people putting films of themselves on the internet crying

after the end of the film. I mean, crying, not just, you know, like tears of sadness, but also tears of joy. Viewers and critics alike, I just knocked something off, I absolutely love it. I think the performances are charming. I think that clearly the characters are striking a chord with audiences who are recognizing themselves and people they know in those characters. I have to say this is one of those strange experiences when one of the things that happens as a critic is every now and then you see something that everyone loves and you just think, I don't quite get this. I thought it was nice and I thought it was sweet and I thought it was

touching. I also thought it played a little hard on the heart strings. Even as I was thinking that, I was aware that people have been completely charmed and enchanted by this film. It was one of those things when I started to feel like I was a visitor from another planet who didn't quite understand exactly why it was going down as well as it was. Now, it's possible that it's cultural, it's possible that, as we've often talked about before, it kind of

depends what mood you're in when you see it. I think it's a good, solid, bittersweet dramedy about families and family legacies, and it has lovely lovely performances and it's got very, very good reviews. It just washed over me a little bit. I thought it was a little on the nose and I was never as emotionally engaged as I wanted to be, possibly, I think, because I had been told by everyone how much I was going to love it. There's nothing that will pull the rug out from under a movie more than me. Anyway, I'd be really interested to know what people think. I think at this time of year, it's the kind of film that people will want to see because it's dealing with

family tensions and also has an element of reconciliation in it, and matters of life and death. I thought it was fine. tensions and also has an element of reconciliation in it and matters of life and death. I thought it was fine. I thought it was absolutely the 3.5 okay film of the year. Other people think it's five star film of the year. Speaking of which, we've been asking you for, well, it says here best films of the year. This of course should be favorite films of the year.

Favorite films of the year, yes, exactly. Because that's what people are doing. They're just giving their, These are the films that you've enjoyed the most. So before Mark does his, so Kat says, this is via threads, wicked little letters, this is five to one. Heretic, the iron claw, the wild robot, and at number one, all of us strangers by a very long way. Lee Smallwood on Blue Sky. Five, The Substance. Then Thelma. Then Dune Part Two. Then The Wild Robot. Then at number one, Anora. Damon Spencer on Threads. At five, Strange Darling. Then Conclave, Alien Romulus,

Dune Part Two, and The Substance. Drew on Blue Sky. Monkey Man at number five. Then, Anora, Sing Sing, Conclave, number one, the holdovers. Andy on threads. Deadpool and Wolverine at five. Furiosa, Mad Max Saga at four. Late Night with the Devil at three. Then, June part two, then the holdovers. And Richard Bradley on blue sky. Love Lies Bleeding. June part two. Superman, the Christopher Reeves story, theance, and number one, The Zone of Interest. Which I think that along with Holdovers is that one of the movies I've kind of parked as last year, but actually isn't.

Yeah, because when we do our top and bottom, we do UK release dates, because that's the only way you can make this work. It kind of annoys me sometimes when people say, oh yes, the best film I saw this year is something that no one who's listening to this show will see until June of next year. So yeah. Will Barron And Candace, also in blue sky, has One Life at number five, Blitz at number four, Wicked at number three, Lee at number two, and Touch at number one. Jason Vale Oh, Lee at number two. That's a very

interesting choice. I'm glad to see that so high up. Will Barron Merker, Hoylandette. I hope that's roughly right. Apologies if not. Five long legs, four red rooms, three perfect days to the zone of interest. Number one, all of us strangers. Yeah. Love all the strangers. So Mark, you'll be doing your top five and your- I'm doing my top five, my bottom five, and my okay 3.5 stars. Okay. And that's all coming up. I'm doing my top five, my bottom five and my okay 3.5 stars. Okay, and that's all coming up. Okay, and that's all coming up. Also, Mark will be reviewing The Order in Better Men.

However, first of all, this. This episode is brought to you by Mubi, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema. Mubi is the place to discover ambitious films by visionary filmmakers, all carefully handpicked, so you can explore the best of cinema streaming anytime, anywhere. So hey, Simon, you remember The Substance, Mubi's runaway smash hit and clear film of the year? I remember you talking about it a lot. I loved it. But this ad isn't about that. It's about another MUBI release, Queer, from Luca Guadagnino. It's adapted from the novel by William Boroughs. It has an absolutely

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Stuff your stockings by heading to NordVPN.com slash take. With our link, you'll get an additional four months free on the two-year plan. And with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee, there is zero risk. Check out the link in the episode description right now. table with flavor packed recipes like crispy chicken parmigiana. You'll be filling your kitchen with the cozy aromas of a homemade meal in no time. Visit hellofresh.ca and use code Spotify for your exclusive offer. Okay, so in a moment, we're going to be speaking to Rommel Ross, but before we get there, on the subject of top fives, bottom fives and all that kind of stuff, shall I give you my top five? Yeah, then I'll give you mine.

I'm going to do, I mean, to be honest, most of these could be rearranged into it. So there is no real particular order, I don't think. Yeah. June 2. Yes. Holdovers. Yeah. Zone of Two. Yes. Holdovers. Yeah. The Zone of Interest.

Yeah. Conclave. Yeah. And I think my film of the year is Civil War. Very good. And I think it will be looked back on in future years as a work of prophecy. There you go. Well, no, I just think I entirely, I thought it was a great film.

Very surprising. And to have a film where almost like the last shot is a gag was audacious. Also, you say it will look like prophecy. What's with the will? Oh yeah, that's right. We're in the future already. Okay, you go next. The future is now.

Okay, so basically I wrestled with this for a very, very long time. And then I thought, look, the rules is mine, okay? So I've got joint fifth, joint fourth, and then definitive top three, okay? Because, you know, I've seen a lot of films. So joint fifth best film of the year. The Holdovers, Joker Folie Adur, Late Night with the Devil, Green Border, Civil War, Kneecap, Different Man, Monkey Man, Challengers, Evil Does Not Exist, Hard Truth, The Might Lee, although that's not actually, we're not there yet, Dahomey and La Quimera. So those are my... So when you say joint, I thought you would be like two.

Yeah, no, no, those are joint fifth, okay? Joint fifth, right? I feel as though you're cheating. Yeah, go on. No, I'm not. Joint fourth best films of the year. How many movies are going to turn up in this one? Well, I'm just saying that I want to make sure that everything is covered properly, okay? And Hard Truths of Mightly opens in January, so I'm kind of cheating with that, but I, you know, it's fine. Joint fourth best film of the film of the films of the year. Okay. Zone of Interest, All of Us Strangers, Amelia Perez, All We Imagine as Light, The Beast, Wicked and Chuck Chuck Baby.

And you'll be pleased to know that the top three are simply one choice each. Okay. Bronze medal goes to Anora. The silver medal goes to Love Lies Bleeding. And at number one, to no one's great surprise, The Substance. Okay. So we'll do more on those a little bit later on with kind of fair to middling, worst, and so on. Yep. Next, this week's guest is photographer, documentarian, worst, and so on. Yep.

Next, this week's guest is photographer, documentary, now filmmaker, Rommel Ross. His first film was a documentary about the African American experience in Alabama called Hale County this morning, this evening. Nickel Boys is his drama feature debut, an adaptation of the Colston Whitehead novel by the same name. We'll talk to R Romel Ross after this clip. Can I just point out before we leap into this, that although everyone is about to enjoy your very insightful chat with the director, I won't have heard it because we are recording this

before you've actually done the interview. It's like pulling back the curtain and there's the Wizard of Oz sitting there. Just a somewhat reduced figure. So bearing all that in mind, here is the clip and then my chat with Ramelle. They told me that he can't have visitors. I just, would you please? Would you please? Yes ma'am. I came all this way. It's a crime, but they won't let me see him. It's a crime. What kind of place is this that they won't let me see him?

And that is a clip from Nickel Boys. I'm delighted to say we've been joined by its director and co-writer. That's Rommel Ross. Hello, Rommel. How are you, sir? I'm doing well, how are you? I'm okay, where did you spend Christmas? I spent Christmas in Northern Virginia with my dad, well, Aldi, Virginia, but yeah, what a state. And I think the new year's gonna be quite exciting

for you Rommel, it just, I don't know, it just feels as though there might be a few celebratory moments for you and your colleagues. You know, I hope so, but I won't count on it just because, you know, disappointment is maybe the toughest pain. Yeah. So introduce us to Nickel Boys. It's obviously based on the Colson Whitehead Pullets surprise winning novel, which was called The Nickel Boys. Was there a reason that you dropped the The? Yeah, we wanted there to be a little more specificity. They weren't, because we're also sort of in the way that Coul not take over Coulson's internet search engine, The Nickel Boys.

He has a book and we're making a film and we want them to be friends, not enemies. Exactly. Exactly. So just introduce us to your picture, just in the broadest terms, because this really is a film that has to be seen to be understood. But just introduce us to what you've created here. Um, yeah, Simon, the Nickel Boys is an adaptation based on Colson Whitehead's novel about two young boys

who meet at a reform school, and about their relationship over time. One of them, Elwood, is sent there unjustly and the consequences span generations, essentially. And the film takes a century and a sort of experiential approach to the story and uses a relatively inventive method of point of view, first-person camera in order to sort of access the interior space of the characters, and also allow the audience to exist simultaneously and to view the world simultaneously with those characters.

Okay. So when you, did you read the book prior to being given the job of making this movie or did you read it once you'd been asked to do the film? Simon, I never read the book. I'm just kidding. I've of course read the book. So did you know what this film would look like before the script? I did. I did. But it's funny to know something and then to manifest it in a material way,

you know, because you're challenged with the language of the imagination and the language of what you're familiar with, even if it's combining experiences and visions of the past. But I had a very clear sense of it and it was fun to find those registrations over time. So you mentioned point of view right at the beginning of our conversation, Rimmel. And what if you could explain just what that looks like on the screen? So this basic, which is, you know, will occur to people immediately as astonishing cinema is that we are used to seeing people's reactions and their body language and their facial expressions. That's how we can understand their character.

With Elwood and Turner, we don't get that. We see it from, we see Elwood looking at Turner, we see Turner looking at Elwood. How did you go about making that work when you're telling this story? Yeah, that was a real fun challenge, which is to ask the actors to do what they're not supposed to do, which is look down the barrel of the lens, to look directly into the camera when they're delivering their lines. Quite often, we would have their scene partner who becomes the audience, who becomes you, the viewer, because you are the character that they're talking to.

They would stand behind the camera and deliver their lines to have some sort of relation that feels relatively normal or natural. But the process of having the camera be the character became one of having five different camera rigs, almost all of them, you know, set up, I'm sorry, having all of them relatively bespoke and customized. Our DP, Joe Mofrey, came up with a variety of different systems to be able to be portable enough to have the camera act as the human head, and not in a literal sense,

but just in its placement and its sort of fundamental movement. And then as you're kind of implying or asking me to explain, the characters would then speak to each other directly from that point of view, which was something to get used to for everyone. So you're asking your actors to do something that seems to me to be very difficult. So there's hand acting and there's voice acting, but although they're always part of the story,

they're not always on screen and we don't see their facial expressions, so we have to learn about them in some other way. And these will be young actors. You're asking quite a lot from them, it seems. We are, but I think that the beautiful thing about actors is at least the ones that I've encountered and the ones in this film. You know, Anjanu Ellis-Taylor and Brandon Wilson and Ethan Harisi and Davi Diggs, Fred Hetchinger, Hamish Linklater and Luke Tenney, you're, they came to play and they want to be challenged

and they want to emote and they want to be their characters and they prepared for this. And so, you know, we found that the less we talked about and the less we emphasized the filmmaking process, and the more we focused on the characters that they had came to play, they tended to fall into the performance modes that they're most used to. And with that, though, I will say that each kind of exceeded one's expectation, because as you're mentioning, this is not a common way of making a film and a way of shooting. And so it's hard to speculate the power of an ingenue Ellis Taylor staring through the barrel of the lens into the eyes of the audience with the love gaze, with the power of connection that we normally see

two characters looking at each other in the third-person camera setup. It's quite striking. Yeah. You mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, Ramel, the Dozier School for Boys, which Nikhil is based on. In America, is this a well-known story? The abuse seems to be on a whole other scale.

We're kind of used to reading and understanding about the way some educational systems work. But is that a well-known story in America? I hadn't heard of it before I read Colson's book, The Nickel Boys. But strange enough, my art studio manager, a guy named Bobby Davis, who, you know, makes art with me in Rhode Island, he's from Florida. And when I brought the PDF back to Rhode Island

after meeting with Jeremy and Dee Dee, I told him that I was maybe gonna adapt this book to Nickel Boys, and I told him what it was about. And he was like, oh, the Dozier School for Boys, I almost went there. And I told him what it was about. And he was like, oh, the Dozier School for Boys, I almost went there. And it legitimately blew my mind because one, it showed how contemporary or how modern

or how current the school was open. It closed in 2011. It also, I think showed the types of boys that were sent there. Bobby's a white guy and both white and black people were sent. Horrors happened to both tranches of folks. I think the black folks or I know the black folks got it a lot worse.

But Bobby was a bad kid but not an unretrievable kid. Yeah, what a horrible thing that was so close. I will say though, quickly Simon, is that I don't think most people know about the story. I think people who have read Nickel Boys know about it. I think those in Florida in the proximity of the school know about it. Anjanu Ellis-Taylor says that it existed because of a conspiracy of silence,

but it seems like it's one of those stories that's kept local and under explored in news. Do you think point of view pain is more intense than third party pain? So when you say point of view pain, you are speaking about the audience's experience of a story. Yeah. So that when we see it through the eyes of someone suffering, I just wonder if that's ... In a way, it seems more intense than if we're back and we're looking from a view and

we can see the incident being inflicted. I like that question because I think it speaks deeply to the programming of camera language more so than anything else. And I say the programming in terms of our relationship to emotional moments in stories, and also to our relationship between maybe fetishizing the emotional elements of connecting to a story more than or rather than the other approaches to accessing and honoring those who we wish to engage with through the narrative process.

I'm unsure if it's more emotional, but I think that as an artist, while I think emotion is one of the most powerful connective tissues between people in terms of empathy of tissues between people in terms of empathy and change, I think that the way in which we focus on emotion sometimes undermines the possibility for change. I think that there's something about giving someone a full emotional experience

that almost forecloses action, that almost allows them to think that that engagement is enough. And I'm unsure, one, if that's true. But I think that for a story like this, But I think that for a story like this, it's funny because the film has done quite well and people have been deeply moved, but if they weren't, I would still be happy. And I think that the gesture of giving the Dozier Schoolboys life, the idea of making a narrative that centers,

that is, that's pivotal moment, seems to be a character's passing away, yet the film is more about their life and the idea of giving them a sort of cinematic memory or making the film an experiential monument, I think transcends the desires of the audience to be emotionally engaged in the narrative. And so I think that we'll tell over time,

I think if more people make first-person films, I think we got incredibly lucky that we had such talented actors, and they were capable of adjusting to the new ask. But it's something I'm gonna think about for a while, and I really appreciate that question. On the plus side, I've never been hugged before by a character in a film.

BOTH LAUGH So it's not all unpleasant. Just, you've mentioned experiential a couple of times. Is that, can you explain the alligator? Alligator is, I think, the paragon of the experiential. The idea of the alligator came from maybe four or five years before I got a hold of Nickel Boys. I had read that black children were used as alligator bait in the historic South. And I thought this was like more of a one-off. And after doing research, it was just a common practice for hundreds of years.

They would take black children and put them on the shore and alligator would come. And sometimes they'd wait until the baby was in the jaw and get the alligator for meat or for their skin. And given that this story takes place in Florida, it seemed like an opportunity to present the audience with something that is geographically accurate, also has this looming sort of this violence that is immediately taken as maybe metaphor, but also seems to be a symbol. The more you know about the history of the transatlantic slave trade and the things that happened in the South, the more you can read into that. The more you think of systems as being reptilian and violent and untrainable, the more you read into that. But it also isn't there, but it also is.

And what a joy to be able to be strategically ambiguous. Uh, Romel Ross, a pleasure to speak to you. Thank you very much, deep for your time. I wish you a happy new year. And I think you're going to have, um, I think you're going to have one. You know, that's what I'm thinking. Fingers, fingers crossed. And yeah, it was a pleasure chatting with you, Simon. Thank you.

Rimmel Ross. And as we mentioned earlier, we'll be reviewing that film, Nickel Boys, on next week's program. But very interesting to hear from him and Nickel Boys review by Mark next week. However, this week, we can talk about The Order. Tell us about that. Yeah, The Order in cinemas from, I think, December the 27th, which is tomorrow, because this is the 26th, isn't it? That's right. New Year's Day. Okay. So, this is a thriller film, Justin Curzell, director of Snowtown, True History of the Kelly Gang, and Nitrum, which we reviewed here on the take, adapted by screenwriter Zach Baling from a non-fiction book, The Silent Brotherhood. This is set in 1980s Idaho.

A series of robberies and porn store bombings and money counterfeiting seem to be connected. Jude Law is FBI agent Terry Husk, whose life is falling apart. He's moved somewhere and his family are meant to be coming, but they're notably absent. His drinking is chronic. As his name suggests, he appears to be a husk of a man. He turns up at the local police office. They aren't pleased to see him, particularly when he starts asking questions about the white supremacist compound, which is just down the road. Meanwhile, Nicholas Holt, who of course we can also see at the moment in the new

vampire movie, is Bob Matthews, who is a hotheaded neo-Nazi who's got tired of all the endless talking and now wants action. He's inspired by the Turner Diaries, which people will know is a real life thing. It's a notorious playbook for domestic terrorism. And he starts to lead his own group in acts of violence, hoping to kickstart the war they've all been waiting for. Here's a clip. They told me you had an operation here. I didn't expect all this. To start, what else did Lane tell you?

That you're building a militia. Needed someone to train him. Mm-hmm. He said you're the best. That's right. Got access to weapons? I can get whatever you need. But why? You guys gonna actually do something?

We already are. How's a thousand dollars a month sound? It's hard for an honest man to make this in our country. No, it's not our country anymore. So as with Nitrim, which I really liked, although it was very, very disturbing. I think Curzel gets under the skin of endemic American real-life violence without sensationalizing it. Obviously, in the current climate, the specter of ultra-right-wing groups is particularly timely. The music, as always, by Jed Curzel. Jude Law is very convincing as this bedraggled agent who's got his own guilty

demons haunting him and his dedication to the job is reckless in the manner of Popeye Doyle in the French connection. It's reckless and it endangers other people and the things that he does have bad consequences because he doesn't play by the rules and the rules are there for a reason. Everything gets very messy. Ty Sheridan is very good as the local cop who gets taken under Husks wing and really wants to do what he really wants to help bring down this organization, but his wife doesn't trust Terry at all and nor should she. The real revelation, however, is that Nicholas Hoult is very, very good as this kind of amiable fascist with these piercing eyes who somehow manages to lead his followers into the abyss. It's a very good performance because what it does is it's got that really scary kind of sociopathic, steely thing that there's

something in him that's broken because of something that's happened in his past, in his family past, and he has now become this charismatic, crazy person who comes across as sort of sane to those around him. It's a very, very good performance. It's a very hard line to walk because in order to play those kind of characters, you have to play them in a way that explains to the audience why it is that people listen to them. You can't just play people as flat out lunatics. You have to play them in a way that engages the audience, which I think he does. I mean, the story itself is hardly revelatory. We have heard these stories before, but it's told with grit and conviction. Even if it's a little

underwhelming in the end, whilst I was watching it, I was gripped by it. I thought the performances were really well done. I think the thing with Curzel is this is a genre in which he excels, is he does, this is a genre in which he excels, telling real life stories in a very, very matter of fact way that manages to deal with dark subject matter without sensationalizing it. Mason- And does the order refer to the organization? Jason- Yeah, they are the order. Exactly. Mason- Very good. Okay. So more reviews to come, but I can sense, in fact, people have been emailing in and calling the studio to demand a laughter lift on Boxing Day. It's off the hook.

The phone line's been jammed. They have. It's really lovely of you to help us out on Boxing Day and introduce us to this extraordinary long period that goes on forever between Christmas and New Year. Don't forget the laughter lift. So therefore, with all of you in mind, here we go. Hey Mark, I can't believe there are 363 days left until Christmas and people have already got their decorations up. It gets earlier every year. Anyway, the good lady ceramicist here indoors got me more Matador equipment for Christmas.

Thank you for asking. It's a big red flag. Oh, I see. So the equipment is a big red flag, but that it's a big red flag that she bought it for you. I got child one, two and three a fridge for Christmas. I can't wait to see their little faces light up when they open it. And good to see we're striking a blow for measured balanced criticism by including the films of 2024 that were fine. That's going to be in take two. Do you know what you call a centrist

folk fan meeting? No. A fair point convention. No. A fair point convention. You know, I give that 3.5. Yes, that is the very definition of a joke, which is okay, which is more than can be said of the one about the Matador being a red flag. Yes. Because that really didn't work at all, did it? Okay.

Well, send your reviews to Mark, care of Narnia. What's still to come, Mark, as far as you're concerned? Better Man, the Robbie Williams film. Is that where he's played by a pig or something? No, a chimp. That's the one? All right, that's coming up after these entertaining words from our sponsors. I am so dreading groceries this week.

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With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Okay, well, here's our Boxing Day special. And who knew that there would be a story about Robbie Williams turned into cinematic glory? What do we make of Better Man, Mark? Yes. Okay. So, a fictionalized, satirical musical biopic of former Take That star Robbie Williams, in which the central character is played by a CGI chimpanzee. So essentially, and I thought of this and then I realized that probably every critic has made this exact same comparison, it's Rocket Man meets Planet of the Apes.

It's directed by Michael Gracie, who's the Australian filmmaker who made The Greatest Showman. You will remember that when we reviewed The Greatest Showman, we said- We said it was going to be a huge hit. We spotted that. Yes. The phrase that I used, and I will take this to my grave, is I said there's not a memorable tune in it, which is on a par with, I think it was Gavin Martin saying the same thing about Michael

Jackson's Thriller LP, which they went on to be the biggest selling film. Anyway. And the Deco record executive who told the Beatles that guitar bands were on the way out. Guitar bands were on the way out. Exactly. So anyway, Robbie Williams narrating his life story and he explains at the beginning that this is how he saw or sees himself. This is why, the reason that in the center we have

CG chimpanzee is because this is how he sees himself. Now you can read that as he sees himself as a performing monkey, which is what some of the take that career looks like. Or I think he's talked about it and he said being less evolved than other people for which read less sophisticated. So it's a self-deprecating way of portraying himself. So story starts with him as a kid or young chimpanzee, who loves his nan, played by Alison Steadman, who of course is a brilliant actor. Every time I see Alison Steadman, I do always think of Nuts in May.

They're not listening, Keith. Idolizes his dad, played by Steve Pemberton. His dad, who's a wannabe nightclub entertainer, instills in him a love of Frank Sinatra before abandoning the family and basically leaving his son with a hole in his heart and a desire to become a star because his dad has basically told him, you have to become a star. Here's a clip. My dad was well enamored by the stars of the day, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis Jr. and of course, Sinatra. They were gods to him.

Youth, you hear that? That's pure love, that is. Don't concrete mind. You've got to risk it all, whatever it takes. Because if you make it, it's paradise. The thing is, you can't learn it. You're either born with it, or you're a nobody. A nobody as in nobody someday.

So this kind of burning thing about this is the way that you will find happiness because it will be paradise. And that kind of runs all the way through. It is also the thing that will win the approval of your father. So he auditions for Take That, amazingly gets the job, rapidly then falls into the, in inverted commas, performing monkey role of being the goofy funny one. They're booked into gay clubs until their manager realizes that girls scream at them. And the next thing, they're the biggest stars in the world,

but Stardom doesn't fill the hole in Robbie's heart. He becomes a drug-snorting, drunk monster, a lousy boyfriend, an unreliable presence, wrecking everything around him self-destructively. Now, here's the thing. In the not-too-distant past, I watched that Netflix documentary series in which Robbie Williams sits on a bed and watches videos of his life and comments are going,

I can be hard to watch this because I look so terrible at that point and hard to watch this because I can see the pain. It's not like we haven't heard Robbie Williams tell his story. In fact, it's hard to think of another contemporary star who has so deeply mined that seam of self-flagellation, self-aggrandizement quite so thoroughly. Also, when I went into this, I thought it sounds like it's going to be too long, and the chimpanzee thing sounds like a gimmick.

It sounds like something that, if you remember the video for Rock DJ in which he strips on stage and then he starts taking his skin off and then he ends up, it's a dancing skeleton, right? The monkey thing, the chimpanzee thing sounded to me like, okay, it's a three-minute gag. The weird thing is, pardon me, just how fast you get over it being a gimmick and just how fast it becomes part of the fabric of the story. Really quickly, you stop thinking, why is that a CGI chimpanzee? Why is nobody commenting on the fact that it's a CGI? It just becomes part of the fabric of the film. Now, partly that's because

it's got this heightened fantastical musical unreality to it. Partly, it's because actually, against all the odds, it turns out to be a thing that works. There are some great musical sequences. There's a sequence which plays out around Piccadilly Circus, around the centre of London, in which they're in stores and they're going across the roads and they're dancing. It has some of that kind of rambunctious appeal of the Saturday Night's Alright for fighting fairgrounds scene from Rocketman. I think Rocketman is a superior film, but I think Rocketman is an amazing piece of work. Steve Pemberton is great as this person who dreams of stardom, but is a pub singer, but instills into his son this absolute thing about you have to be famous

because that's the way you will be happy. There is some genuinely raw stuff about his relationship with his family and about his relationship with his partners. It doesn't soft-soak any of that stuff. There is some of it which is pretty brutal. It is true that it kind of feels the need to have a Hollywood reconciliation at the end. Just because of the way these stories are told all i don't think i needed that particularly all i know this theory some factual basis in it. In the end it is it is over long it is indulgent and it is essentially foolish. What for all that it is much more rewarding than i expected it's much more entertaining than i expected and damn, if that central idea doesn't actually work, because it does, and no one is more surprised by that than I am.

Imagine going in and selling the idea for this film. We're gonna do kind of a Robbie Williams memo. Okay, okay, okay, yes, I can see that. And Robbie's gonna be played by a chimper. Excuse me. Anyway, so credit to everybody for making it work. Credit to everybody for making it work. And also, like I said, I literally caught myself about 10 minutes in thinking, I've

stopped worrying about this. This is remarkable. I have stopped worrying about this. Okay. So let's finally move on to worst films of the year. The 3.5 is going to be in take two. Oh, okay. That's the okay films of the year. That's right. Which, it'd be very interesting to know the maths on that. Do the okay films actually keep everything running? Yes, I think they do. I think okay films are the sort of... One of the things that you said, was it Jack Thorne said this, on the subject of AI, that one of the things that AI would do is it would take away from screenwriters the time in which they were just okay? Was

it Jack Thorne who said this or was it on script notes that you heard it? It was on script notes. It was the director of Mission Impossible. I beg your pardon. Chris McQuarrie or somebody? Chris McQuarrie or somebody? Chris McQuarrie. Okay. Yes, it was because, yeah, the whole thing is we all start a bit average and then hopefully get better, but AI can do average. So how do we cope with that?

That's true. I thought that was interesting. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that thing about being okay is, and we often talk about this about saying something, it's fine. And people say, well, that's damning. No, it's not damning. It's saying, it's fine. It's fine. It does what it says on the tin. It's fine. It's different, and it's not fine.

And I think this is moving into Ofsted territory. If you're told, and I don't think this category exists anymore, but if something is satisfactory, it means it's good enough. It means it's okay. It means that'll do, Pig. That'll do. It's perfectly fine. And so therefore, let's hear it for the 3.5ers. In the meantime, here are the one and two stars films. First of all all, then Simon on Blue Sky ridiculously put Civil War at five. Hang on, Civil War at five in his worst films? Yes, yes. Then Alien Romulus at four, which I liked. Madame Web at three, okay. Argyle

at two, Joker, Follyard at number one. Well, we're not on the same page, but thank you for writing in because obviously, you know, a broad smorgasbord of opinions is always welcome. Okay, so worst five, we could be here for a while. How many have we got? No, well, yes, okay, so I have cheated again slightly in as much as I've done joint five, but it's not like the last one. It's not like 23 different ones.

It's only I think there's less of them. So my joint number five worst five films of the year, Twisters, The Exorcism, the Russell Crowe, actually, The Exorcism is technically, it was finished a while ago, but awful, Borderlands, Rebel Moon Part II The Scargiver, which I was just bored out of my mind by, Madame Webb, which has proved very, very popular, and Christmas Even Miller's Point, which I have noticed has turned up on some critics' best of the year lists, which just goes to show that diversity of opinion is a wonderful thing. That's joint five. Okay, rock and chimp on Blue Sky.

Number five, Imaginary. Number four, Baghead. Okay. Rocking chimp on blue sky. Number five, imaginary. Number four, bag head. Number three, Sasquatch sunset. Number two, no way up. And number one, the worst film of the year, Madame Webb. And Dion threads, Arcadian at five, Megalopolis at four, trigger warning at three, afraid at two, and Madame Webb at number one. I'm spotting a trend here and Madame Webb at number one. I'm spotting a trend here. Give us your number four. My number four of worst films of 2024 is Red One, which is currently in cinemas.

This is important. When you're judging how bad a film is, you have to judge it by what it could have been, what kind of resources. This is a film with money and stars and studio backing and all the time in the world to get the thing right. It's absolutely terrible. I think that that is worse because of the amount of stuff that it had to play with. I think that's why it's so bad. So Damon on threads, he says you could put these in any order, they're all terrible. Crazy House, Lift, Damaged, Rebel Moon Part 2, Madame Web, Lee on Blue Sky.

Glad to see Rebel Moon Part 2, the Scargiver, or whatever it was called, getting a look in. Well done. Lee on Blue Sky. Five, the Crow remake, just why. Four, Deadpool and Wolverine, tedious key jangling of nods and winks. Three, Salem's Lot, bloodless disjointed adaptation clearly culled from a longer series. Two, Hellboy, the Crooked Man, snoring noises.

And number one, Madame Web, spider brackets, Hellboy, The Crooked Man, Snoring Noises. And number one, Madame Web, Spider, Brackets, Birdsong, Close Brackets. Okay, so let's do number three in Mark's list of the worst movies of the year. When you consider the heritage weight behind it, when you consider the huge canvas that it has and the built-in audience that it has, Ghostbusters Frozen Empire is absolutely unforgivable. Because when you're given that scope to make a film that boring, and that perfunctory is really, really poor. So Ghostbusters Frozen Empire.

The Movie Mambo podcast says challenges at five. I mean, this is like what? Paddington in Peru at four. I mean, what? Alien Romulus at three. I mean, what? What kind of a podcast is that? Roadhouse at two and Ghostbusters Afterlife at number one. Anyway, okay. So where have we got to? Number three in the mark list. No, number two in the mark list. Yes, number two. Now, this is a very interesting thing because if you remember, my number one favorite film of the year was The Substance, which stars Demi Moore and Margaret Qualley. My number two worst film of the year is Drive Away Dolls, co-starring Margaret Qualley. My number two worst film of the year is Drive Away Dolls, co-starring Margaret Qualley. This for me is like one of those things when you win an Oscar and

a Razzie in the same year. What it demonstrates is that the fold is to do with the filmmaker. This is the weird thing with that film is it should be so much better. I mean, it's Ethan Coen. It's written by Ethan Coen and Tricia Cook. It's got a great cast. I mean, like a really good cast, a cast so good that the star of it is actually in my favorite film of the year. And it was tooth-gratingly insufferable and smug and full of itself.

And again, I put it so high up because it should have been so much better. It was so surprising just how bad it was. Okay. So just before Mark's worst film of the year, Matt McGrath on Blue Sky, this is his top five of the worst films of the year. Number five, Megalopolis. Number four, Megalopolis. Number three, Megalopolis.

Two, Megalopolis. One, Megalopolis. Number four, Megalopolis. Number three, Megalopolis. Two Megalopolis. One Megalopolis. And Scott on Blue Sky. Five night swim, four drive away dolls, three Godzilla, X Kong, the new empire. Two, it's what's inside. And number one is Madame Webb. The worst film of the year. Here we go. Mark pronounces. Obviously, always fantastic to have a divergence of opinion and really great for people to be passionately disagreeing with each other. Megalopolis is not so much a vanity project as an insanity project. It is an appalling piece of filmmaking.

It's a genuinely badly made film. I was asked at one point, somebody said, would you recommend people go along and see it? Because it's so bad, it's brilliant. So no, no, it's just so bad. It's holding your eyelids open with matchsticks while yet more CG waffle goes on. The low point for me was the point at which Adam Driver started reciting Shakespeare badly and the film seemed to think that that was fine. Oh, and John Voight. It's astonishing to look at John Voight and think of all the amazing things he's done. Coming Home is such a brilliant film. And then he ends up brilliant film. And then he ends up here. It's a terrible, terrible, terrible movie. And everyone should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

Before we're done, a nice email from Michael Kelly, but not the actor in Lioness, I don't think. Anyway, hi lads, says Michael. I'm emailing, this is a warm, glowing kind of email for you, Mark, as we round up our Boxing Day special. Go ahead. I'm emailing to let you know of a minor miracle that has happened here on the Dingle Peninsula in Kerry in the west of Ireland. Lovely Killian Murphy and his amazing artist wife, Yvonne McGuinness, have bought the cinema in Dingle Town.

If you talk to anyone on the peninsula about the Phoenix, they will have some story about artist's wife, Yvonne McGuinness, have bought the cinema in Dingle Town. Wow. If you talk to anyone on the peninsula about the Phoenix, they will have some story about their love affair with the place. Run from 1978 till 2021 by the Sullivan family, it went the way of many small one-screen cinemas and closed down. Previously, it was a dance hall and a theater, and many couples for generations had their first encounters and first romance there. We all feared the worst when it closed as holiday apartments are the only thing that

makes financial sense in this tourist town. But like a genius stroke by a screenwriter, it seems that the fairy tale ending is here and Killian and Yvonne are going to reopen it as a cinema in the not too distant future. As you can imagine, the town is ecstatic at the news. I just thought I would share this news in a time when cinemas are struggling so much. Come and visit any time. All the best, Michael Kelly." So that's nice, isn't it? That's a good story. This does raise the question of, could Kelly and Murphy get any better? Do you think he could open a chain of cinemas? This is going to be such a success that maybe he's tempted to find other.

It's better if it's just the one, isn't it? Oh, okay. That's better because it's personal. I remember you and I once, we were talking about a potential TV program. We said, I know, let's do a TV show in which we open a cinema in somewhere, and then we run it. Then we realize, because what would happen is, we would fall out with each other, the cinema would do really badly, it would take over our lives and end our careers. I don't suppose Killian is going to be running the box office though, and I don't suppose Yvonne McGuinness is going to be there with a flashlight saying, no, you're in that seat. Okay. So Mark, what is your film of the week?

Well, weirdly it is Planet of the Apes meets Rocketman. Better Man. That's the end of take one. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment Christmas Eve production. Oh, no, Boxing Day, sorry. This week's team, Jen, it's easy to get confused. Jen, Eric, Josh, Vicky, Zachie and Heather. The producer was Jen, the redactor was Pooley Face. And if you're not following the pod already, please do wherever you get your podcasts, because that would be a very nice thing. We'll be with you very shortly. I mean, to be honest, at this time of year, everyone forgets what day it is.

So you'll look at your inbox. I mean, obviously there's a take too, but you'll look at your inbox and go, oh, really? Is it that time already? I'm going to listen to another take. Thank you for listening. your inbox go, Oh, really? Is it that time already? I'm going to listen to another take.