Kermode & Mayo’s Take - CARRIE BRADSHAW – How to fight the patriarchy and stop obsessing over relationships – SHRINK THE BOX

Episode Date: September 10, 2024

In our final character episode of this season, we put Carrie from Sex and the City on the couch. Nemone looks at why Sex and the City hasn’t aged well, and Ben talks about diversity in the privileged, white world of the show. We get into Carrie’s shopping habit, low self-esteem, and why everyone in the show is SO obsessed with relationships, even though the women really have no need for them. We also get a primer on the Bechdel test, and how you can tell if a show is sexist without knowing it. And if you want to check out more on the patriarchy and diversity, have a listen to our episodes on Sydney from The Bear. We want to hear about any theories we might have missed, what you’ve thought of the show so far and your character suggestions. Please drop the team an email (which may be part of the show): [e-mail] Find how to view the shows we’ve talked about here. CREDITS We used clips from episodes of Sex and the City. It’s available to watch on NOWTV/SKY. Starring: Sarah Jessica Parker – Carrie Bradshaw Cynthia Nixon – Miranda Hobbs Kim Cattrall – Samatha Jones Kristin Davis – Charlotte York Created by: Darren Star Candace Bushnell Directed by: Susan Seidalman Nicole Holofcener Alison Maclean Michael Fields Darren Star Produced by: Darren Star Michael Patrick King John P. Melfi Jenny Bicks Sarah Jessica Parker Cindy Chupack We would love to hear your theories: [e-mail] A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts. To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail]. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, this is Mark. I want to share a secret with you. I've always wanted to watch Densautis van on Denmark's public TV station DR Oh and also that broadcast of Michael de doctor vits that dot to Rouge on France TV And you know what helps me get to do all of that Nord VPN wherever I am I can pop Nord VPN on and bingo I can switch my location to a hundred 111 countries and unlock rare films and global content in the process. Not only that, but all of that watching is safe with encryption, threat protection and dark web alerts to guard against hackers and secure public wifi.

And by the way, forget any others, NordVPN is the fastest VPN on the market, providing smooth streams with no lagging or buffering, and it can be used on 10 devices. To get a huge discount on your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com slash take. Our link will also give you four extra months on the two-year plan. There's no risk with Nord's 30-day money back guarantee. The link is in the podcast episode description box. Hi there, it's Simon and Mark here. On today's show, Ben and Nimone are looking at Carrie Bradshaw. You know, from Sex and the City. Her favourite. A journalist with a shopping habit who flits in and out of affairs with the dubious Mr Big.

She tells other people how to live their lives, but can she live her own? How profound. Enjoy the show. And please do send us your thoughts on the show and suggestions for characters for Ben and Nimone to cover. To shrink the box, it's SonyMusic.com. I am someone who is looking for love. Real love. Ridiculous, inconvenient, consuming. Can't live without each other love. And I don't think that love is here in... in this expensive suite in... in this lovely hotel...

in Paris. Oh, it's Ben Bailey-Smith here. Welcome to the place where we shrink the noggins of your TV faves and see what behavioral traits we might even learn about ourselves. And I'm a momentous after a kind of sex in the city style wardrobe disaster, couldn't decide what to wear. What, for this? Yeah.

I mean, I was at the wardrobe, but I had to kind of think, I was thinking Carrie. I was like, I'm going to try and channel. Oh, I see you were trying to channel the fashion element of the show to dress for this episode. Yeah. So by your reaction, I can see that I totally failed on that one. I don't feel so. Excellent. Good start. Thanks, Ben. Okay. We should try and keep that going though. Okay.

Because I've been itching since episode one of season one of shrink the box to do Carmella soprano. Oh, okay. And I would love to see you with massive Italian hair. Excellent. Matching Chanel suits. I think. Actually you're halfway there with the jewelry. I know. Well, I think you're growing the hair. So I think. Yeah, I've got enough hair for everyone at the moment. All in all, we might be nailing that soon. Um, for those that can't see us, and the moment is, is, is not looking like Carrie Bradshaw. She's looking good as always. And I am looking something like, I don't know if they replaced a John Blackthorne in Shogun with like just a mixed race hobo.

I don't know. Cheers to me. I'm't know. From under a bridge. The hat was saying cheers to me. Not cheers. Um. I'm keeping the cap on because my Afro is like, that's out of control. Anyway, welcome guys. Yeah. I'm what a welcome.

Tell us what we heard at the top there. That was Carrie Bradshaw and all the things that make her tick in one quote. The protagonist. And that's interesting because we've sort of started at the end, haven't we? And that's her talking about her ideal view of relationships, how complicated she finds them, how she does embrace the finer things in life, Paris, hotels, the wealthy lifestyle, even though they leave her a bit hollow in the middle. But what she's looking for is simply L-O-B-E. And that quote is cheesy and the show has its sentimentality, but that doesn't mean there isn't something to get our teeth into.

No, I mean, listen, when I think of obviously we're British, right? So HBO is a big deal for us, but it's not like it is for Americans. Like HBO changed television, you know, in America you couldn't have swearing, you couldn't have boobs. You know, TV was what TV was. And then HBO landed and changed the landscape completely. And the two shows that made HBO what it is was The Sopranos and this. You know what I mean? Sex and the City. When I see the little HBO sting, my brain goes to Sopranos or Sex and the City. And I guess that's because of our generation as well, because this came out what, 98 sopranos came out, 99. Actually, we'll talk a lot about the time that this came out, because I think that's

quite significant culturally. And obviously there are four female protagonists. That was very new. Yeah, it's kind of the golden girls is the only one I could think of before. I wasn't necessarily feeling that that was aimed at me. Based on a book or something, maybe I'm wrong. No, no, I think you were along the right line. So Candice Bushnell wrote articles for the New York Observer. 94 to 96.

So she's kind of based on a real character. Carrie is really the real life Candice Bushnell from that period. Gotcha. I want to start by saying sex and the City is much loved by a lot of people, and not just those who watched it when it first came out in 1998 and followed it for six seasons. There are a lot of people in 20s and 30s who are only discovering it now and see it as a bit of Bible on relationships, helping them navigate bad dating decisions. I have to say, I found it quite a difficult watch at times with my slightly older, slightly older head on now

with a psychotherapy hat on, because it's hard to watch Carrie's major relationships play out and the whole show being riddled with that patriarchal framework that I don't think I was as aware of in my early 20s or when I was watching TV. I partly felt how could we be so blind to the biases in it? And part of my work has been with bias and judgment and thinking about how people's experiences have changed in the world. It is difficult to sit and watch a show where we're supposedly getting four

independent women in their own right and powerful in their own right. And yet they're often seen in relationship to men. Watching it, I could definitely sense that that's the sort of fairy tale element of it is sort of pervades everything. Like they've got to find the perfect man for them. Even, even Samantha, who, whose thing is like sleeping around and just having fun. It's not. Yeah. Like ultimately it's, it's, it's about men, but I, I guess with my patriarchal

man brain on, I thought at the same time, this must be a groundbreaking thing just having four women, even if they're two dimensionally drawn. That said, there's also, it's also that classic sort of friends type world where you're in New York and there's no black people, which always makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. We'll come on to the missing elements from sex and society. I guess the main point I want to make is like, there was one part of me that thought, oh, I mean, you can let that go. It was a different time.

Like, we weren't really writing women that well at the time in general. But then I kept thinking, wait, the Sopranos was the same time. And the female characters are phenomenal and multilayered and complicated. And I sort of wonder about- And the patriarchal gaze is sort of- Is inherent in that as well. All of that said, I can't lie. I just, I thought it was very, just sort of like, I don't know,

just distracting, funny, frothy, nonce. Like, it's like a thing I got yesterday in Bournemouth for the first time ever. I went in a Costa and I got like a big thing that I see my daughters get. I call it a frappe, but it's called a frappe. I think it's a frappe. Yeah, cold.

And it's just the big, just like, it's like a cake that they've- Are you saying that's at Sex and the City? It's a frothy cup of that. It's like a cake, put in a blender and then in a cup and you can just drink it real quick and it's like lovely. And some might say stick to the cake. Yeah. And sometimes these things work and at moments they do. I mean, I kept, I came away this time thinking where's the depth. And then I remembered that my 20 year old self would have run a mile from depth like that. I wasn't looking for the kind of depth I guess that I'm thinking about now.

I thought it was the posters I had on my walls and the slogans on my t-shirts that gave me depth when I was watching this. If I would have been watching it at the time it came out. So a hundred percent I was... I thought we knew the characters as well. All right, well coming up we're going to look at what makes the unattainable so exciting. We're talking Mr. Big of course. We're going to ask are the four women empowered or simply just archetypes and and the fashion

Porn thing like what does it say about? Carrie did it put pressure on viewers like the moan here to dress in a particular way for work We'll find out welcome to shrink the box Okay, here's our recap Carrie is a lifestyle columnist living and working in New York, Manhattan. She has three best friends, the sexually liberated PR mogul Samantha, straight talking redheaded lawyer Miranda, and the tweet and more art dealer Charlotte. They share everything with each other. They're super close. So they talk about their sex lives, addictions, dating anecdotes, even life-changing illnesses. And throughout the show, Carrie is in and out of this relationship with Mr. Big, whose

real name is John. Spoiler alert. Alongside him, you get an ever-changing cast of other lovers. Most significant is maybe Aidan, whom wedding bells may or may not ring for. The other big character in the show is upper crust, high end New York living. You know, this fancy restaurants, eye wateringly expensive designer clothes like the most get up today. And all these patterns and the storylines kind of repeat. It's kind of cozy in that respect across the length of the show. It's not Sopranos-esque arc, so I think it's fair for

us to do a cross-section of Carrie across the six seasons rather than going, oh, let's just look at season one, you know. So don't forget, shrink the box at sonymusic.com for your thoughts and reactions on all of this. I think there will be some big ones this week. I might be wrong. Nimone, introduce us to Carrie. So, client this week, female, Age 32 when we see her first in season one and then by season six, I think 38. So we're watching her through her 30s effectively. Relationship status, Edie's complicated. I mean, she would resoundingly through the first series at least call herself single proudly most of the time. She's a writer and columnist as we've made reference to. She's a smoker, she drinks and she does live alone in New York. Right. What are we noticing about her first that we think? What are some of the first issues

Carrie might raise? Think she might talk about Mr. Big? She's got like a pre. If I had her job, I'd find that quite angst ridden. She seems to have a big readership and you've got to keep delivery. Oh and she's on the side of buses saying you know Carrie knows what sex is about. But that had her job, I'd find that quite angst ridden. She seems to have a big readership and you've got to keep delivering. Oh, and she's on the side of buses saying, you know, Carrie knows what sex is about. But that doesn't seem to bother her as much as this guy. Why is he called Mr. Big? Is that revealed at any point? Weirdly, actually. Has he just got a big...

Yeah, no. Well, let me tell you, Ben, before we go down that road. He has got a big personality. I think he has got a big personality, actually. We'll come on to that. Okay. Weirdly, he got his name just before Samantha tries to hit on him in the first episode. So I'd even forgotten about this. So Samantha spots Big and says to Carrie, see that man? He's the next Donald Trump.

Yeah. I watched that episode the other night. Except he's younger and much better looking. And part of Carrie's voiceover is, and there she went off to take her best shot with Mr. Big. Yeah, Mr. Big Shot. Okay. It is Carrie who falls hard and their on off relationship begins.

They sort of try and reset the parameters of their relationships as a friends with benefits deal. This is after they've had- At one point. Yeah, this is after they've had a bit of on bit. Yeah, proper on. And then they've got off bit. Yeah. But then big drops this bombshell.

Carrie, it is serious. We're engaged. I wanted you to hear it from me. Oh, I just got a splitting headache. Well, I didn't know how to tell you. And when you called for lunch... Engaged? How can you be engaged? You have a problem with commitment, remember?

In fact, you told me you never wanted to get married again, ever. Well, things change. Meaning what? You just didn't want to marry me. Look Natasha and all. Don't say her name to me. Don't you dare say her name to me. You string me along for two years and then you marry some 25 year old girl after only five months. And later on in that episode Carrie asks Big why wasn't it me? Yeah why couldn't you make that commitment? Yeah how could you not do it with me? And he says, well, it just got too hard.

Do you think that says something about the way Big wants women to be? You know, like he wants them to be a bit easier, a bit hassle free, maybe not as sharp as Carrie. The male characters in Sex and the City could be the subject of another podcast for us. I mean, it feels like this is predicated on Fairytale Prince in shining armor or Big's big sedan. He's often driving up in a car with a driver.

That is his horse. It feels one-dimensional and surface level, this why couldn't you make it work with me? It feels like Carrie has the greatest insight at the end of this particular episode. And it put me in mind of, have you ever come across Women Who Run With Wolves? Book by Clarissa Pinkola Estes. No. Myths and Stories of the Wild Woman Archetype. It is a fabulous book.

Now that sounds interesting. Especially with like what we talk about quite a lot in terms of how women are written. Yeah, and the preconceptions about exactly. And Carrie says, because she really can't work out initially why Big wouldn't be with her over the person that he's not known for that long. But Carrie says, maybe it was that I didn't break Big, but that he couldn't break me. Maybe some women aren't meant to be tamed. Maybe they need to run free until they find someone just as wild to run with. Which I actually felt at the time the most feminist and kind of anti-patriarchal insight that I saw really

whilst I was rewatching the show. I nearly cheered. When you were rewatching you nearly cheered. I think there were real moments of insight. It's just that the package as a whole perhaps doesn't realize those. And maybe that is a product of they are still trying to find out who they are. Jason Vale In the second season, they sort of enter into the affair properly. And Carrie ends up saying she's got no idea who she is when she's with him. And a lot of it seems to be dancing to his tune. Does this tie into what you're saying about the show as a whole? Is everybody just going, oh,

a man will sort things out in the end? To complete me. Yeah, to complete me. What Carrie says here is crucial. She doesn't know who she is. It might be that she says, I don't know who I am when I'm with you. But quite often, that continues for her. She likes to dress up and that's kind of like an archetypal little girl

trying on outfits to see what fits and what suits. She creates different personas through her dressing up. I think it's one of the reasons why clothes are so important to her, which we'll go on to explore in a little bit. There is a sense of Carrie's false self that we see most of the time. That's the self-state that we can portray externally when we feel like there are parts of ourselves that are unacceptable to the external environment. So we'll create the false self that is the one that the people that we're meeting like and can cope with. We don't see

her spend a lot of time getting to know her true self or befriending that true self or even giving that true self an outlet. That is until a lot later on in this series. She is a chameleon trying on shoes of men for size and she's looking, it does feel like the Cinderella fairy tale doesn't it? It feels like she's looking for the prince to put on the glass slipper and whisk her away, a sort of modern day Disney princess. She wants to be rescued from these day to day trials and tribulations. I have to say though, those money issues never actually end up seeming to be any problem to her going to the biggest party or wearing Manalo Blahnik. Yeah, or travelling wherever she wants to travel to.

This is probably a good point to talk about the best old test. Yeah, man. I mean, I mean, you must know. Oh, absolutely. I think I learned about it back in the, uh, the old older days of with attainment. I think it came up and it was something that was discussed on and off for a while. I think that was the first place I heard of it is Allison Bechdel. So this test, you can explain it. Yeah, it's used in film.

And I was curious if any episode would pass the Bechdel test. So this test, it was invented by Alison Bechdel in 1972. Very simple. A film must have, A, at least two named female characters. They tick the box on that. B, the characters must have at least one conversation. And C, this conversation should be about something other than a man. I mean, that was for a film, remember? And so if we take a film length part of this, it's touch and go whether that would be... Absolutely.

...whether that would be passed. And in terms of Carrie, what do we make of that? As I said earlier, she doesn't know who she is. She's looking to mentor, define and protect her. I think we could see this in Jungian terms. So this is Carl Jung and he's obviously behind a lot of the archetypes that we talk about. And there's quite a lot of dream work in Jungian work. And she could be seen as father's daughter, which means she idealizes the men who come into her life and submits to them. So she goes to Paris with Alexander P. Doesn't she? Yeah, it's an adventure that she defends the right to have, but it's completely dependent on him financially and socially. She doesn't have any life of

her own out there. She plays whatever part Big wants to play. It's actually Aidan, I think, who seems to offer the most equality for her in a relationship. And you feel in that relationship, like she might have space to grow and learn to know herself more. And I feel like she's more her true self actually in that relationship, or she feels like she can be more her true self. But she runs away from it and back into the arms of the father protector, potentially emotional abuser, we can think about that around. They're strong. Yeah. I was left wondering if there were any characters that demonstrate integration

between their feminine and their masculine, or are they all embodying this kind of toxic distorted feminine or masculine? I think only Aiden actually is an integration between feminine and masculine. You kind of feel like he's nurturing alongside ambitious for Carrie. You know, he cooks for her one night. He's understanding. He cooks for her one night, he's understanding, he listens to her. But then he, in the end, realizes that she's not giving him what he needs. She is honest about the affair with Big in the end.

She seems to finally bring some of these lessons of independence and self-respect, avoiding the patriarchal pressure of someone like Big in the penultimate episode. He skulks around in that limo. This is when she's dating the Russian artist. And she tells him that this time it's different. What, do you have some kind of radar? Carrie might be happy, it's time to sweep in and shit all over it. What? No, no, look, I came here to tell you something. I made a mistake. You and I... You and I?

Nothing! You cannot do this to me again! You cannot jerk me around! Carrie, listen, it is different. Oh, it's never different. It's six years of never being different! But this is it. I am done.

Don't call me ever again. Forget you know my number. In fact, forget you know my name. And you can drive down the street all you want. Because I don't live here anymore. Maybe you should have been loving her. Do you know what? Listening to that, I really felt like those little vignettes of strife between couples, there was something in that, in that they're openly showing. There was something vicarious for the viewer that we get from

going, okay, it's not just us that has that kind of argument. You know, in terms of what else people are getting from Sex and the City, if we're taking the kind of depth lens out of it and looking at the pure enjoyment of it. So Big is back, and of course he comes back via the unlikeliest of sources, her friends. Big goes to lunch with the three remaining friends and he says, the three of you are the loves of her life. A man is lucky to come in fourth. For me, it's slightly riddled with, I can watch it in just a light entertainment way, but also it's riddled with patriarchal overtones. How about one of them goes rescues Carrie for her own good or their own sakes, not sending

some bloke out to do it. If they are the loves of her life and he really is in fourth place. But you know, her friends do play this huge role and like Bigs suggests there or intimates that it's bigger than Big and they offer a different insight into her character. You know, let's dig into the importance We've spent far too long with the men in her life. Exactly go for the big love Let's try and pass the Bechdel test in part two of shrink the box Before that have a little guess who turns up in season 2 episode 6

From Vogue, the run through. A new weekly podcast featuring the most riveting news in fashion and culture. With Vogue's take on the big stories. Fashion in relation to sports, culture and politics. From the red carpets and runways to political and cultural events. Bringing you under-told stories from around the globe. With voices rarely accessible and uncommonly authentic. On this season of The Run Through, Serena Williams, Michaela Cole, Metria Blase and more.

The Run Through with Vogue. I'm Chloe Mao. I'm Cho Manardi. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Do you ever feel like you're the only one navigating life's ups and downs? Well, guess what? You're not alone. It's Anna Richardson here and my podcast, It Can't Just Be Me, helps you realize that you're not the only one.

Join me as I sit down with incredible celebrity guests and experts to dive into life's biggest topics and covering their very own It Can't Just Be Me moments. Expect revelations, honest anecdotes and a few laughs about the challenges and obstacles that life throws at us. Listen and follow new episodes now wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, we are back. The answer to that little quiz before the ads who pops up in season two episode six is one of the greatest cameos. Such a good cameo. It's so, so good. Maybe one of the best people are telling me, people are telling me it's the best cameo they've seen in a series. That's what I'm being told.

It's the very best we've had people telling us. It's Donald. It's the Donald. He was in everything. Yeah, there was a point at which he did pop up. In the eighties and the nineties. So he was just like in everything. Yeah.

He's not making so many like in everything. Yeah. He's not making so many cameos now. Yeah. The heartbeat of this show are the friendships, right? As I was suggesting before, the friendships that Carrie has with Miranda and Charlotte and Samantha, let's dig in a bit deeper to this sort of female loving. There was a lot of love shown by these characters to each other. They listen, they give advice,

they accompany each other in difficult moments. They talk about their desires and fears. It is, there is an element of a sort of therapeutic circle that they create for each other. With one proviso, there's a lot of judgment. But certainly, the offer is there to share what they need to. But they don't get too deeply into what's actually going on. They're with each other every step of the way.

But I suppose initially I noticed the lack of curiosity and challenge among them. That's certainly in the first couple of seasons. I think it changes. We do get more character development over the arc of the whole series, but they remain in their clearly defined lanes. In therapy, I guess, we'd be nudging Carrie in the direction of getting to know the self better,

rather than talking about others. And by nudging, I mean, you'd hold that as a kind of, I wonder what it would be like for her to ask that question. And again, you might ask some questions around that to see if there's any curiosity for herself because obviously being largely led by her. I wonder if it's harder to challenge others, especially close friendships at that particular age in your twenties and thirties because you haven't laid down the kind of raft of experiences together and you're all still experimenting.

Yeah. And you're all still experimenting. Yeah. We mentioned in the teaser at the top about the four women, whether they were archetypes. What do we mean by that? You know, because we're not talking about stereotypes. No, we're talking about they embody something about well-known, I suppose it is characters from behavioral traits, like they're sort of like this, the stencil, like the outline, you know, that you can, you can say, I am this, but like with Charlotte, I mean, archetypes are long in the tooth characters through literature and culture. Like we'll start with Charlotte then, the Virgin Mary represented by Charlotte. So that's an archetypal character for the ages.

That's sort of what we're talking about in terms of an archetype. Samantha, the archetype for that is prostitute. Miranda, I guess is more integrated as a woman making it in a man's world as a lawyer, but really in a quite a patriarchal way. And later on in the series, her sexuality... She's even got short hair. She's got short hair. She must be doing a man's job.

And of course, then there's her journey with her own sexuality that's woven into that storyline. Carrie is the maiden, the little girl cutesy ditzy exterior playing a role for men. But again, we're very much in a, there's the P word again, it's going to keep cropping up, that patriarchal paradigm, whereas you can only be one thing and we're going to hang that on that particular person. God forbid you should actually show elements of all those archetypes, which is much more... That's complicated and it's difficult to...

Authentic. Yeah, of course it is. It's difficult to pin down, I guess, digging back into those friendships or this specific four way friendship. Miranda, the closest we get to sort of questioning Carrie, like actually going, no, hold on a minute. I think this is wrong. Miranda definitely holds her to account in what I think is lovely sometimes in a less judgmental way than perhaps Charlotte, who she knows she can't tell certain things to and certainly is terrified about her finding out about the affair with Big. I mean, we can be reflective really about friendships

and what they're shown, about all four of them, how supportive are they? How able are you to be vulnerable with your friends? What if you're afraid of who you are, you know, and you have this kind of other self that it may not, it may be conscious, it may not be. Where are the paths for you or the places for you to go and be that particular

person? How unconditionally loving and caring is the environment? Can you be yourself? And practice, rupture and repair when the inevitable happens and you do disagree or you do fall out. Is that okay? Okay, I have something to tell you and you're not going to like it. And believe me, I would rather tell anyone but you, but I have to. Okay. Because I need your to. Okay. Because I need your help.

Okay. I'm having an affair with Big. I swear to God, I think my heart just stopped. And also I'm smoking again. I'm smoking and I'm sleeping with Big. Feel free to delete me out of your Palm pilot. I actually don't mind being judged by very close friends. If I think it's mistaken, we have an open debate about that. But like, I respect it. It has to be from a close friend.

And that's part of a loving, unconditional environment, which I guess is what we're hoping for. Yeah. Is that what Carrie's looking for in choosing to tell Miranda this, to drop this bombshell on her? When she says that, believe me, I'd rather tell anyone but you, I think it's not in the same way as I mentioned with Sharla, i.e. you're going to hate me. I think she's like, I just don't want you to think any less of me because I love you as much as I do. And that would be heartbreaking. I mean, she flips between confident and cutting,

delete me from your palm pilot. For anyone who's listening to early form of Blackberry, kind of precursor to a smartphone. Yeah, like a whole QWERTY keyboard on it, mental. And then she's, so she's got that kind of confidence and then complete insecurity. It feels defensive, but it also feels vulnerable, childlike, almost saying like,

it sounded to me as if she was saying, well, I've behaved awfully and the ultimate sanction would be for you to delete me from your palm pilot, but I really don't want you to. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I've said it here before, sometimes the harshest, most critical voices are the ones inside our own head. Yeah. And it's us that are judging our own behavior and then projecting that onto others and imagining

that's what they're going to think. Yeah. And actually here, Miranda is very open with her. She doesn't say, I sanction whatever you're doing, but she's like, you can tell me. Yeah, yeah. Tell me whatever. Charlotte refers to Carrie's role in this whole big palaver as being the other woman. But we don't hear that from the others. These are different judgments. Definitely. And I guess that's why I asked you about judgments because really what

we're piecing together when we're hearing different people's perspectives is how able are we fully to live in ourselves and be ourselves, regardless of what anybody thinks. So I'll come onto that. Interestingly, Charlotte embodies the position of the judge over Carrie's behavior in this episode. How could you do this? I mean, it's all tied up with the wedding as well,

which I guess is kind of a very archetypally wedding episode. And Charlotte says, you're my maid of honor. I've chosen you. You can't possibly be having an affair and be my maid of honor. I mean, we could see it as her friends embodying different parts of Carrie's own psyche and arguing or pulling her in the different directions, which the voices in our heads can sometimes feel like they're doing.

That's a really good point that I hadn't thought of because you could read Sex in the City as one rounded character in Carrie and three archetypes that are sections of her brain and soul. Her own psyche. The woman that like, it was one of the episodes I watched in the first series where she tests Samantha's theory and goes and uses a man for sex essentially. Very much so in a way that probably was a bit cooler than what Samantha would do. And then of course, like the idea of like, no, actually maybe I want a perfect marriage

and be like a perfect housewife, which is kind of Charlotte's. And then she's got this really serious job. She's on sides of buses and she wants to be at the top of her profession, which is very much Miranda. Yeah. I mean, we could look at it like that as part of the internal working model for Carrie. You could also look at Miranda, Samantha, and Charlotte's relationship from a family systems

or family constellations perspective. So who is holding what for the group in terms of, well, I mean, Charlotte, I think is definitely de facto judge, possibly parent, mother. She definitely mothers them more when she gets married. Samantha's holding, I think, the reckless and risky. So that's this, Samantha's holding the bad for the group quite often. Yes.

And for society. She carries a lot of punches. Yeah. And she's modeling something. She's modeling something really important, which is I'm not going to feel bad about choosing to put pleasure over anything else. Yeah. Yeah. Throughout this episode that we're talking about, I guess, so this is Carrie telling Miranda about the affair. Miranda is judgmental, but she's fair,

and she forms part of Carrie's conscience. So Carrie asks her, do you hate me? Say you don't hate me. And Miranda kind of says, I don't hate you. And Carrie says, now only if I didn't hate me. So that's the kind of projection, isn't it? That's projection personified. She wants, I felt she almost wanted Miranda to say, I hate you and therefore agree with

her in a critical voice and make the decision for her. I mean, we could spend much more time in the area and we should, I think, with critical voices, where they come from, how they hold us in check, how oftentimes we feel like they're the ultimate judge, but where they stem from might not be helpful anymore. Another part, just shrink the inbox. I mean, that's such an interesting topic. how oftentimes we feel like they're the ultimate judge, but where they stem from might not be helpful anymore. Another part, shrink the inbox. I mean, that's such an interesting topic. Yeah. Well, let's do it.

Shrink the inbox is probably the place to get a bit deeper into that. So we don't, we're not fully focused on any one character. It's useful for that. Wheeling back to the dynamics of their relationship and what she wants or needs from them or how she perceives them. We see a little bit of that referenced in that farewell speech she gives before Paris. Ladies, stop. Really, you're going to make me cry.

She didn't even say anything yet. But I know it's coming. I want to thank you all for wishing me well tonight. In spite of some of your personal opinions about my leaving. Me? I've never had an opinion in my life. You guys, stop. Please. Easy there, Waterworks. Today I had a thought.

What if I... What if I had never met you? Yeah. I mean, that piano was not laying it on thin, shall we say. There is a real sense of finality here, Ben. It's an ending. Yes. But it's hard for them to say how much they mean to each other. And here we have her family. You know, this is Carrie's family. I was going to say, we don't know much about her early familial experiences or early childhood experiences, but we have a living, breathing family surrounding her in New York. And that's who she's, you know, she's chosen to spend time with. Yeah. But endings are things that a lot of people are scared of. But you're right, especially

in the kind of Western world. I think, you know, there's often times we just feel like we want to put our trainers on and run amok and dissociate from endings big time. And that's totally understandable, but that's because we don't spend enough time. They're really important. And they're happening all the time. All the time. You know, especially we move from preteen to teen, we say goodbye to our younger self. You see kids of that

age going through a real morning process. I said this to another parent yesterday, this exact thing to another parent. I said, go easy on him. Don't forget he's grieving. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? You see the regression, don't you? You see regression into, you know, one minute you've got this child who is basically telling you where to get off and then they want to cuddle. Beyond romantic relationships and friendships, we want to dig into her sense of self-worth

and what makes her call on her friends for support and self-doubt. We're looking to that after this. I'm Rob Norman. I'm Andrew Norton. And on Personal Vest, we help you tackle the stuff you'd be too embarrassed to ask an attractive, successful life coach about. That's right. We have a slightly different approach to self-improvement. Which is, we don't know what we're doing.

Definitely somebody following me. Okay, she's holding a sword. This is so nuts. But in the end, somebody following me. Okay, she's holding a sword. This is so nuts. But in the end, it always works. Okay, it sometimes works. You have no idea how happy this makes me. Personal best, season three, available now wherever you get your podcasts.

What's 2FA security on Kraken? Let's say I'm captaining my soccer team and we're up by a goal against, I don't know, the Burlington Bulldogs. Do we relax? No way. Time to create an extra line of defense and protect that lead. That's like 2FA on Kraken. A surefire way to keep what you already have safe and sound. Go to kraken.com and see what crypto can be. Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. See kraken.com slash legal slash CA dash PRU dash Hello again. Don't forget to shrink the box at sonymusic.com for all your suggestions, reactions, theories. We can't talk about sex in the city without talking about fashion, right?

You mentioned shoes. I remember articles where they would, you know, have clothes that you could buy and look how similar it is to the girls from the show, you know, is it an addiction for Carrie shopping fashion? Definitely a really important part of how she sees herself and what she spends her time doing and how she chooses to spend her time. With her retail therapy, we could be back to our old friend, the dopamine hit here and filling the voids with material items that kind of elicit a short-term hit.

But then, I mean, I was thinking, how many shoes can you actually wear? There's only so many days in the week Ben and in the year I think you start to look mad you people with that many shoes for some people It's about the thrill of handing over money and that's the hit. That's where the dopamine hit gets from It's like I need to spend and this is the item. I'm gonna spend it on I don't want to is that like a thing of like it's a good feeling that I've Made this happen. I've made this money what and that like a thing of like, it's a good feeling that I've made this happen. I've made this money and now I do what I like with it.

There were lots of strands in here, but it can be, yes, I am able to reward myself in this way. All right, sorry. But then you might be hit with remorse because you might not actually be able to reward yourself in this way. It might be the act, that mini act of handing over the money, getting the short-term hit, and then you're filled with remorse.

I mean, there's so much in here. For some, it's about a collection and an amassing of things and possessions. That can be another substitute or way to fill an emotional void. So it would be really interesting to unpeel the layers with Carrie about her relationship with money. And we know, certainly in Western culture, how difficult conversations can be around money. And of course, her Monalo Blahniks go missing at her friend's baby shower. She then does some maths, realising that single people actually take a hit on present giving

all the time. They're always having to give these presents to baby showers, when people are getting married, going on the hen do, going to the wedding, staying over. So the question is being single amazing or is it the absolute worst thing? Is it the best thing or the worst thing? Well, the idea of being single often surfaces in Carrie's story much earlier on actually. It's interesting you bring that up. Season two, episode four, she and all her girlfriends start off single at the beginning of that particular episode. But then one by one, the other friends end up getting involved with someone straight away almost. Meanwhile, Carrie,

however, goes on a big all-nighter, turning up eventually for a photo shoot for a New Yorker piece. And when she sees the cover, it's like a Sex and the City version of that Arctic Monkeys cover or whatever people say I am, that's what I'm not. You know, the black and white, the guy sort of smoking. Looking worse for wear. And it shows her smoking a cigarette with no makeup on in black and white and it's titled Single and Fabulous? Question mark. They said single and fabulous exclamation point. They did not say single and fabulous? Question

mark. That question mark is hostile. Miranda, can we sue them or something? For what? Miss punctuation? It's too late to sue them all over the city. Looking like, like something that got caught in a drain. Okay. You know what? I just quit smoking.

Actually we see, um, Bradley Cooper references. I knew, I knew, I knew. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, yeah, yeah. Old, old, old intense Bradley. Oh yeah. Pops up and he spots the article. They saw, isn't it? Old intense Bradley. Oh yeah. Pops up and he spots the article.

They sort of, I think they meet at the end of that night. Well, they're about to go home together, aren't they? And they've met, definitely. And so she might end up with someone, but he goes to my bag of cigarettes. What does the question mark mean? Like she, that's freaking her out, isn't it? Yeah, the question mark's causing Carrie

to reevaluate her own feelings towards being single. So it's again, it embodies that judgment that causes Carrie then to question her own self-worth. Because it starts, I think it starts to chime with the voices that are already in her head. Oh, should I be single? Everybody else is hooking up with people. What am I doing? Am I okay to be the way that I am? And eventually she reasons.

As I walked home, I couldn't help but wonder when did being alone become the modern day equivalent of being a leper? Will Manhattan restaurants soon be divided up into sections, smoking, non-smoking, single, non-single? I mean, the fear of external judgment at this point is palpable. Yeah. And also that where important things in the history of society happen in her head. Yes.

Manhattan restaurants. I bet that went down well with you. But how do you go about building self-worth if you do have this? Because as we always say, all these feelings are relative. Oh, completely. So I can take the mick out of her incredibly privileged life. It's easy for me to do, but at the same time, whatever internal issues she has could be something is shared by me, could be someone that's shared by someone with nothing.

But that's what we're hoping, isn't it? With this show is that we bring some of that, despite whether we're talking about hard and fast drama or whether we're talking about comedy. Of course, there is an element of laughing about some of these trials and tribulations, but we might start to work on the idea of self-worth and noticing judgment in therapy by asking, who is it that you think is judging? So who is the judge? And why does it matter to you what they think? People will often come and say, but they think this. And I'll often, you know, peel back the layers to say, okay, well, do you know what they're actually thinking? Because quite often you've made that that's coming again from an internal source. And then we'd ask, do any of these judgmental voices feel familiar? Does it chime with a

voice that might be familiar from childhood? quite often the internal critical voices are a composite of many of the voices that we've heard over the years that have, as I said, kept us safe or been part of the boundaries that we've been party to. So eventually in this episode, it does feel like Carrie starts to have her own back, if not throwing off the judgment, if indeed it exists externally, then embarking on some form of self-acceptance. I decided I wasn't going to let a magazine or my friends or the Surgeon General stop me from being who I was. Single and fabulous exclamation point. So I sat there and had

a glass of wine alone. No books, no man, no friends, no armor, no faking. No, and do you like going out for a meal on your own with a glass sitting in a restaurant, no book? It's so weird because I can do that with a pint of beer, one pint and then go, Jimmy, and I love that. And just, you know, what do a bit of people watching? Some of these I just can't do with food. It feels too tragic.

There is this little element with this show that does bug me because it's in New York. Like, if you sit it somewhere else, then fine. But this is New York, right? I know it well. My sister lived there for 13 years. My brother-in-law still lives there. Visited it from the mid 90s to current day.

Okay, so you'd have known this period of New York. I've never been. I can't find a place in New York where everybody is white and rich. Don't get me wrong. Manhattan is crazy now for sure. Okay. But this is 1998. There was places you couldn't even walk in Manhattan in the nineties, you know, and

it just doesn't feel like they exist here at all. The scariest place in Sex and the City is like an all night gay bar. Do you know what I mean? Because there might be like men in a cage and people drinking like a new drink that's always a bit dangerous. Yeah. I mean, what I noticed the second time of round of watching Sex and the City is how much it's coming from

privileged white perspective in the nineties and noughties. It's so lacking in nuance around gender, sexuality, race, ability. It seems steeped in this white ableist New York privilege, which as you're saying, you're kind of questioning whether it actually exists, you know, as a pocket. What is attractive as well. I think that's another thing that annoys me. Yeah. And I have to say, it's not necessarily they should have artificially made the friendship group mixed because as someone rightly pointed out on Reddit, I think friendship groups in New York can be mono-racial and America, including New York City, can be extremely segregated.

But the diverse characters when they appear feel grossly caricatures. And the other thing we could reflect on is the way women were being treated in the media at the time as well. You think of Brittany, JLo, Pamela Anderson, they have all since brought out documentaries about the scars left on them from that period of time, 90s and noughties. That's interesting. They, we were objects, toys for the male gaze, which became internalized

misogyny, made women feel like they had to seek out male approval and pedestal it as demonstrated by Carrie, who gets stuck in the cycle of hoping for this from big. The cast did complain actually about the lack of diversity and agitate for it according to them. It's kind of, it's one of those things, isn't it? After the fact, you can say like, Oh, I held my hand up. But there's, with those kinds of situations, there's never one person to blame. But what do we conclude about Carrie Bradshaw? Well, I think it's fascinating going back and watching it 20 years after it first aired. The layers are missing for me. She's uninitiated, unformed woman. She perhaps she's a mannequin

that we can hang our own outfit or two on or our own desires and that's the point to her. She's definitely portrayed as part little princess girl growing up in this bubble of New York waiting for her prince. I found myself asking where's the woman who knows herself a bit more. I think at the end she finally gets close to knowing herself but it feels like it's tied up relationship wise with of course Mr Mr. Big. Yeah. She says, this is right at the end of season six, I got to thinking about relationships.

There are those that open you up to something new and exotic. There were those that are old and familiar, that bring up lots of questions. Those that bring you somewhere unexpected, those that bring you far from where you started, and those that bring you back. But the most exciting, challenging, significant relationship of all

is the one you have with yourself. If you find someone to love the you you love, well, that's just fabulous. I mean, those are brilliant words. That's to the soundtrack of Candice Staten and The Source. You've got the love, of course, as well. So, which is massive at the time and has been since. They are the words, aren't they? And that shows the insight

that she has is, actually, I've started to form a relationship with myself, and I'm looking for someone who's going to like that self, myself, rather than I'm going to try and be the one, the big ones. We actually end in a place where she'd be perfectly primed to go into the therapy room. She'd be more than ready to find out, dig a little deeper into herself, I think. Bring it on. Yeah. Although Mr. Big might say, now why do you want to worry your pretty little head about that? Where do we start? Get in the back of the sedan. All right. Who do we have next time, Namo?

Well, it's not a who, it's a kind of more of a what and an exploration. Next week, we have your favorite of mine, Shrink the Inbox. Right. So we are going to look at some of the emails that are coming in, your voice notes, what your theories are about some of what we've been talking about, who you'd like us to cover. But I think in view of where we've been, should we do critical voices? I mean, I really wanted you to talk at length about that. Maybe pick up on some of the stuff we were talking about with bubbles. Oh, we could do that as well.

Dramatic experiences. There might be some crossover. Early childhood experiences. Absolutely might be some crossover. All right. Listen, guys, if you would like to, we'd be thrilled if you give us a follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, wherever you get your pods, get the new EPS, share it with your mates. Hey, if you want to be a shrinker and miss all the ads, subscribe to Extra Takes, you know the deal, get the ad free episodes from Kermit

and Mayo and all their extra stuff as well. Start your free trial. If you're up for that by clicking try free on top of the shrink the box show page on Apple podcasts or by visiting extratakes.com. And thank you to our production team as ever. Production management is Lily Hambly, the assistant producer Scarlett O'Malley, the studio engineer and mix engineer Josh Gibbs. The producer is Jeremy Newmark-Jones, the senior producer Selina Ream and executive producer Simon Poole. Well, I think that was a tremendous episode. How are you fairing on your high heels? Are you not wearing them?

Yeah, no, I took them off, I put on my pumps as soon as I came into the studio, so I'm fine, but I am gonna get them back on now. And head home. I love Melanie Griffith and working girl. Big time, big time. I will maybe give the, I can see it now. You're on that boat looking across the water in New York. It's been wonderful to spend some time in New York with you this week.

See you later. Bye. Rakuten shoppers do. They get the brands they love with the most savings and cash back. And you can get it too. Start getting cash back at your favorite stores like Old Navy, Best Buy, and Expedia, and even stack sales on top of cash back. It's easy to use, and you get your cash back through PayPal or check. The idea is simple.

Stores pay Rakuten for semi-mum shoppers, and Rakuten shares the money with you as cash back. Download the free Rakuten app and never miss a deal or go to rakuten.ca to start giving the most bang for your buck. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N.