Kermode & Mayo’s Take - Do you have a critical inner voice? Ben and Nemone explain why. Also, forgotten actors who are enjoying a renaissance and your questions answered - SHRINK THE INBOX

Episode Date: September 17, 2024

For the last episode of this season, team STB gets real with those pesky inner monologues (as promised in the Carrie: Sex and the City episode). Plus, what's the connection between 80s comedy-thriller Lovejoy and The Matrix? We explore actors who have come back from obscurity with aplomb.   We want to hear about any theories we might have missed, what you’ve thought of the show so far and your character suggestions. Please drop the team an email (which may be part of the show): [e-mail]    Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts.  To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail].  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Do nice guys really finish last? I'm Tim Harford, host of the Cautionary Tales podcast, and I'm exploring that very question. Join me for my new mini-series on the art of fairness. From New York to Tahiti, we'll examine villains undone by their villainy, monstrous self-devouring egos and accounts of the extraordinary power of decency. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hello, Simon and Mark here. Ben Bailey-Smith and Amon's inbox is bursting with your correspondence and they cannot wait to get stuck into potential clients, theories and everything and anything else in between. Enjoy the show. Hello, it's Ben Bailey-Smith here.

And I'm a moment access alongside you. Today we're going to delve into our email inbox, aren't we, with suggestions on who you think we should be analysing. And we answer your questions and mull over your theories. And we will be covering the Americans, young Sheldon, Barry Berkman from the massively popular show Barry, Richie Tozer from It's a Sin and the Landscapers. What else, Nimone? Will we be doing one of your deep dives? I think we will. On the back of Kerry Bradshaw actually we're going to be looking at critical inner monologues or inner voices. Do we

all have them? Is it normal? Where do they come from? Can we quieten the chatter? And in fact, do we want to? Sorry, I was just listening to the voices. The inner voice. And after the success of our spin-offs chat a few shrink boxes ago, we're going to talk about examples of classic or forgotten actors having a bit of a renaissance. So welcome one and all to Shrink the Inbox. Now first and foremost we got a shout out Elizabeth who's written in not to give us a suggestion but to make a comment and this is unbelievably self congratulatory, but I just think we got to

do it because it's just so nice to hear it. Because she said the alchemy between these two and I presume she's talking about me and you. I'm sorry, I got the wrong podcast. Unless she's just like commenting on her, her pets like running around behind her computer. The dialogue is crackling, witty and brief. I like that. Brief. Mercifully brief.

I don't know. I think you're definitely listening to the wrong podcast. We've been chattering away, chuntering away for ages. Oh, Elizabeth, that is really nice to hear and thank you so much for getting in touch. And now remember we mentioned that we wanted to do more spy shows. We now have this email from John. Dear, Lemone and John. Dear Nemone and Ben, love the show and been wanting for a long time for you to analyze some of the characters

from my favorite shows. So here's an idea for your upcoming episode on spies has to be Elizabeth and Philip Jennings from the most excellent series, The Americans on channel four. Some of the supporting characters are also fascinating, especially their handler, Claudia. Claudia is played by Margot Martindale, who also appears in Sneaky Pete on Amazon Prime. The con man Pete isn't a spy, says John, but certainly leads an interesting double life, actually many lives. How to psychoanalyse that? Best wishes, John. Scratchy, scratchy, chin, chin. And on that topic, actually, we've got a voice note which is from Kit. Hey guys it's Kit from London here I love your program and I hope this is a place where

I can mention The Americans to you this is one of my favorite shows of all time and I just urge anyone to watch it. Obviously it's brilliantly acted and the storyline every episode is just fantastic. I just love the way it talks about, in an extreme way, about how we all wear masks in life and we are different things to different people, obviously in their case they're spies. And as a parent of two kids, I think the way it has that moral ambiguity of the things that we are prepared to do for our kids, I think is so we are prepared to do for our kids, I think is so interesting and complicated. And on that moral ambiguity, the fact that you end up rooting for this family who are essentially Russian agents trying to bring down the capitalist system is just like another cherry on top

for me. It's a wonderful piece of work. Would love to know your thoughts. Cool. A lot in there. I mean, we've just covered our first spy, Jackson Lam, a few episodes ago on Apple TV Slow Horses. Bart from Kit there, the Americans sound like there's tons to get stuck into. Yeah, he's not the first. It's been asked for many, many times, which makes me think I really should pull my finger out and watch it. But at the very least done some research into what the hell it is. What is it Ben? First and foremost. Obviously a spy show. It deals with the KGB, the Cold War. John the Carrie who we reference

many times wrote extensively on that topic. But it sounds from John's email that we got four characters that we could cover. Okay. One's emailed it, we got four characters that we could cover with the agents, the handler and the conman, the two agents. And Double Live is just always interesting, isn't it? It's a great place to start. It would be really interesting to do another spy TV program because I think we only just got started with Slow Horses really and on Jackson Lamb and there's plenty to cover from

there and obviously The Americans sounds great and actually on Double Lives we've got an email from Suzanne in Australia to talk about Barry, Dear Ben and Amon, another Australian listener here, I've loved the show even though I have to skip several episodes because I haven't watched the shows yet. I mean that can happen or I think you can get stuck into an episode and then go back and watch the show. Hopefully it's not too many spoilers. Yeah, I feel like we're less spoilery than we used to be, but I don't know. Like with me, I just, I love knowing nothing. So I can understand.

You want to come to it fresh. Yeah. What Suzanne goes on to say a character I'd love to see on the virtual couch is Barry Berkman. Now that the season is coming to a close. So keep up the excellent work, great company for my walks. Oh, that's sort of where we want to be, isn't it? That's exactly what I want to be. Pottering around doing life.

Pottering around Australia, you know, having a little walk. Her name is Suzanne Walk as well. She's nice, um, nominative determinism to end the email with. So she's talking about Barry Bergman from the show Barry. Yeah. Um, it's just ended after four seasons written by Bill Hader. He plays Barry who's like a comedy pro. He's one of those guys you just know him immediately if you don't know his name you see his face you're like oh that guy.

I was going to say because the name isn't ringing bells but the fact that he's on SNL. Super bad he's like one of the crap policemen. Okay and there's a lengthy film and TV credit list as well, including some of the shows we've covered. Yeah. The Office, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, he's been in, plays guest roles. He's just a brilliant cameo guy, which makes it even kind of more special that he's got his own show. So he's the lead. He's not just a cameo and he plays this war veteran turned hitman who follows this guy that he's trying to kill into an acting class and it changes his life.

And then he begins to battle with his old dark life and his new life, wanting to pursue acting. So I don't even know where you start with a character like that. There are definitely different avenues we could take with this, aren't there? A lot to unpack. What about the psychological impact of having been a war veteran and how that might have led to something like death insensitivity, so being more numb to the death that surrounds him in this next chapter of his life and any trauma he might have faced.

And of course, any PTSD from some or all of what he bore witness to, or was part of during the war. We covered actually the great work of Bessel van der Kolk, didn't we, in his work? Oh, with Peaky Blinders. Yeah, when the PTSD from Tommy Shelby and Peaky Blinders, because of course he was in World War I. So we could build on that.

You feel the pull with Barry's two lives once he finds this acting, even as you just described it there, I've not seen it yet, but this sort of idea of he's this hit man, and then he suddenly discovers acting, and like where, you know, it's sort of like, which one am I gonna land on?

It feels like he's never enjoyed his time off work before, or certainly never found his passion before, and perhaps this is it. And then the thought that how sort of along the sociopath psychopathic scale are you, if you're a hit man and killing is your way of living or how you earn your living. And what does that necessarily mean? Do you need to have some form of disconnect from the idea of life to be able to do that as a job?

I would have thought so. Ben, do you think the experiencing trauma makes you a better actor or as dark as it sounds because it gives you a formidable set of a better actor or as dark as it sounds because it gives you a formidable set of experiences to access or as Barry does might you have a hard time switching that side of yourself off once you start to access it on stage if that's I mean I suppose it's yeah it's an it's like an oft asked question or it's often pondered you know like asked questioners are oft pondered, you know, like I definitely when I was younger thought that having bad experiences or like enforcing a chaotic life upon myself would be a good way to make better art and it was nonsense. Like I've never created anything good when I've been stressed or

Like I've never created anything good when I've been stressed or, you know, been through something traumatic or feel upset or reminded of a trauma from the past. All of those things just cloud your focus. I'm speaking personally here. I know some people will, you know, and there are even some acting techniques where you might be encouraged to do that, but I don't think it necessarily works for everyone. I'd say personally, all the best stuff I've created is when I've felt really settled emotionally, physically, and feel content and I feel focused on nothing other than the thing that I need to create. But that's just me personally. And I'm certain, you know, there's a million examples of incredibly talented actors doing unbelievable work and crediting it in some part to the traumatic

lifestyle they had before whatever they sobered up or they left an abusive relationship or whatever it might be. You know, thinking of Natasha Leon in Orange is the New Black plays Nichols. You know, she struggled with addiction, heroin addiction, I think, for years and nearly lost everything. And I think there's no way you can watch Nichols and not think that some memory of that time helped her create that sort of... That's fascinating to delve into that. Full character.

Yeah, and work out whether this is something that, and I suppose it's a little bit like we've spoken before, can you draw and harness on those experiences or is it something that you have to shut off from? I think, like I say, I think it will vary from actor to actor, artist to artist. I think for some people, can be quite dangerous. It can be like, quite a risky thing.

Sort of like a re-traumatising. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So not always smart. But I think, I think the general consensus outside of the business is that it's quite handy to have had like a messed up past or something like that to be a more interesting artist in general. I think that's the general outlook. within the business. It's not true Well, that's a lot of the way that people think about me musical Yes, so some of the some of the greatest rock stars had great like just had really happy times a really loving family Do you mean like it doesn't always compute people find? Positive creative energy from all sorts of places, positive places and negative places.

It depends on the nature of the person. Oh, I think you've done us really proud though, Suzanne. Perhaps Barry is a road that we should go down. Why not? I need a reason to see that. What else have we got? Oh, different kind of trauma. Growing up with siblings.

This email is from Cam, who says, "'Love the show. "'It's making me watch the shows you've shrinked.'" That's nice, isn't it? Yeah, I think that's good. The show creators will be very happy to hear that. I'd love to hear a show on Georgie from Young Sheldon, "'The lovable brother who seems so shallow slash simple, "'but isn't at all.'"

Thanks, Cam. Ah, Cam. Okay. So this is a spin-off show, I think, Young Sheldon? Yes. Is it Big Bang Theory? Yeah, yeah, Sheldon of the Big Bang Theory. Yeah, and that's the shout though from Cam, rather than the main character, Sheldon, for the brother.

Yeah. So what do you think about that? Younger than Sheldon. Yeah. Young Sheldon, this big bang theory spin off, George is actually the older sibling, but doesn't feel it because Sheldon obviously is like some kind of genius, right? And he's four years younger, but they end up in the same grade at school. Which when we think about sibling rivalry, which we touched on in other episodes, Game

of Thrones, Friends, Frasier. How much do you think sibling status, like whether you are the oldest sibling, middle child or youngest, has to do with how you grow up and personality traits? Now I know you're an only child, right? I am. But you would have had to work with, well, I say you would have, I don't know, people would have come to you discussing their family dynamic. Well, I think it's a lot more complicated, isn't it? Because obviously I have experience of

being a sibling and then not being a sibling. Of course, because you lost a sibling. Yeah, my sibling died. So in a way, it's really interesting for me to think about the place of being a sibling. And I never think of myself as an only child, although that's how I've lived a larger proportion of my life. But I think this would be such interesting territory for us. For starters, there is birth order, of course, and the impact that that has on your relationships, and the relationships between siblings. So power struggles, rivalry for affection. And I wrote my dissertation actually about sibling loss. And at that point I realised,

that was about a good few years ago now, I discovered how little the sibling experience had actually been researched and written up about until about 10 years ago. So you wrote a dissertation about, like, was it based on your personal experience or you were thinking about it in broad terms? Yeah, it was an auto-ethnographic piece of research, which is when you research your own experience.

Oh my god. Did you find that tough? Yeah, it was one of the toughest things I've ever done. Why did you do it? You don't mind me asking. I couldn't not. I'd reached a point in my life where that was the path that I knew was the right one, however difficult it was. And it was really difficult.

It's incredible. It was fascinating and painful. And I think I hadn't really then appreciated the impact of the, because we hear so much and we've talked about it on the show of the hierarchical nature, the sort of vertical relationship with our parents between parents and offspring. There was so much less written about the more horizontal one, which arguably you spend more time in because you are born alongside your siblings and then you're with them. I mean if the natural order, you know, takes its course for longer than you will be with your parents. So I think I was just surprised that she's certainly a lot more has been written about siblings in the last

10 years. And that's interesting in and of itself, but there's so much to cover. The roles that can be attributed to siblings in families can be fascinating to observe. Of course, you are sort of assigned a role in the family and then you take that on and you might carry that into later life and actually you think, well, where did this come from? I didn't actually choose to be X, Y, Z that they've given to me.

And of course, the role of usually older, more experienced sibling in the case of Georgie, perhaps possibly sometimes harder working is totally subverted in this instance as Sheldon is the boy genius as we've referenced. And that would certainly have had an impact on Sheldon and his parents, but perhaps more importantly on Georgie. Yeah. I'm a middle child of three and I speak to other middle adult middle children. So many of the same patterns, completely different backgrounds, growing up in different places, different countries even.

Wow. That's so weird. Why do I have to do everything? I don't understand. Like why did the other two not have to do it? I have to do everything. Like especially for the parents of like logistics, just basically all the boring shit. That's forward to you.

I have to do. And I don't, I just like, I'm moaning about it here, but I don't really do it in the way, just sort of just, just do it. It's really interesting because it would be, we'd need all the siblings here to know that their experience, because they might feel that they do it too. No, they know. He's not having any of it. And actually Freud left siblings out largely from some of his theories.

Why? Blind spot. Just a blind spot. It seems that way. Yeah. Or maybe he just thought, look, if you've got these two parents, this is what's going to happen. But as we've discussed before, like the experience, even if the parents like join forces and go, we're gonna do everything exactly the same,

the second kid can be totally different. It can't be, it'll never be the same. Never be the same, no matter what you do. It's a lot to think about, but there we go. Next up, we got an email from Katie who says, thank you so much for your pod, I'm a psychotherapist. Ah, Katie, hi. And I think you do a good job of making psychotherapy accessible and understandable through exploring all of these interesting characters

That's what the shows about. Yeah, she's just nailed it I'm always trying to work out a way to explain to people who haven't listened to show what it's about That's what it is making psychotherapy accessible and understandable through exploring these interesting characters That's that's why I need to explain to people. Thanks Katie. Because you know, I bump into people in the street, I heard you got a podcast, yeah have you listened? No, no, I don't know, I'm not really interested.

Like, why would you break down a TV character, they're not real. Do you know what I mean? Which is a fair, I think is a fair criticism of the show, but that's not what the show is. Katie goes on to say, previously you asked if mental health professionals could write in with ideas for characters that could explore themes or ideas in psychotherapy. I thought the character of Richie Tozer from It's a Sin

would be a really good way to explore the role shame can play in our psychology and behaviors, and also how the unconditional love of friendship can counter that shame. So much to explore in the series on top of shame too, there's grief, discrimination, family expectations, denial, I could go on. Best wishes from Katie. Yeah, thanks for that email.

And you know, just reading that second part of the email when she talks about unconditional love of friendship countering shame, that's another thing we've touched on a few times, the idea of, you know, shame growing and exploding within isolation. And then how it just dissipates when it's let out. I think one of the best things about therapy is like, being able to say these things and not being judged on them. And then when, when they're out loud and the person doesn't react, like what kind of creature are you? You're barely human. And when this is out there and there's no reaction and just like, do you know what I mean? Yeah. You're like, Oh, okay. So now I can maybe move on

from that. You hear it in a different way. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So yeah, nice one, Katie. It's a sin. It's a good shout. Got a lot of respect, a lot of awards. Russell T. Davis of Doctor Who fame as well behind it and yeah, did really well at the Welsh BAFTAs as well as the English BAFTAs and oh man, great shout Katie. And shame, like I said, we touched on it, but. I love how Katie mentions how shame came up as part of the episode as part of It's a Sin. And shame came up as part of our episode looking at Carrie Bradshaw, actually, Sex in the City. Yeah. Shame also affected Richie Tozer and It's a Sin. It's the perfect theme for many dramas

because it obviously comes hand in hand with navigating our way through the world through relationships and of course, sex and shame is fundamental in lots of ways to our everyday experiences and relationships. In fact, we'll mention it in a moment again. I'm feeling it right now for still having not watched It's A SIN. Coming up after the break we're going to be talking about killers who hide in plain sight and film actors who've had a renaissance thanks to prestige TV shows. So see you after the ads unless you're a subscriber to The Take or Shrinker. In which case we will see you right after this fact. Here we go, you ready? Did you know the Simpsons were originally created as a quick way into ads for the Tracy Allman comedy show on TV. The Simpson family was later adapted into one of the longest running American scripted primetime television series of all time.

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With deals this good, everyone wants to be a student. Join for just $4.99 a month. Savings may vary. Eligibility and member terms apply. All right. And we're back. Up next, we've got an email from Dwayne Wise who wants us to cover characters based on real people.

Oh, really? Okay, no. I don't think so, Dwayne. He says, hey, greetings. Love the show. I know you have reservations on analysing characters based on real people, but I urge you to consider Susan and Christopher Edwards from the HBO series Landscapers played by Olivia Colman and David Thewlis. What a pair. Enjoy from Dwayne Wise. I remember seeing this advertised as a mini series, which is written by Ed Sinclair and, before mentioned, Olivia Colman herself, real life husband and wife.

Colman describes the characters as gentle and meek people showing how much they wanted to try and build sympathy for the characters. But these characters are killers. Yeah, it's not a simple, they're just gentle and meek people. There's definitely a kind of underbelly to this. Oh, Dwayne, thanks for sending this in. It's not that we have reservations, but in this show, we're kind of making assumptions about someone which we can't do for real people. And of course there'd be a whole world of ethics and confidentiality to cover. I mean, like Ben says, it's really a way of, I guess, making psychotherapy more accessible and thinking

about what's happening for us in real world situations as well. But it's always hovering there, the real people. And we got close to it with Larry David, I guess. Yeah, that's the closest. But he's, you know, the fact that he has created a fictional version of himself is almost like giving us carte blanche, is almost saying, here you go, take the mick out of this guy, rather than the real Larry David. Analyze this one. Well, you're right though. There's an endless fascination with people who kill. In this case, Olivia Colman and David Thewlis, who are seemingly mild-mannered but end up killing and burying her parents. Massive spoiler there. Again, it's the double

life thing, I suppose, that we're fascinated by. How can someone fool everybody so convincingly? And we're fascinated by why we're taken in by somebody like spies I guess the men in grey suits they say the best spies are the ones who look totally and utterly normal and I loved in this sort of same vein of taking people in I loved the sixth commandment about the chap who condes went to old people's lives in a sleepy English cul-de-sac and then got them to change their will and killed them off which I think you remember as You were killer adjacent in that one. Killer adjacent, yeah.

Have you ever played a killer? Yeah, once. My character was a hit man hired by this gangster who, spoiler alert, turned out to be my estranged dad. Yeah, I think I killed, I can't remember the exact count, I think I killed 211 people. Yeah. The numbers are wildly inflated because I blew up a building of people. But yeah, I also like I went up into this beautiful apartment like shot and stabbed a couple people. I went into Westfield and was hunting hunting hunting a guy in London. Yeah, hunting a guy through a shopping mall. What was the, as we're talking about this, you were actually holding an imaginary gun, pointing it in my direction, but what's it like to actually play that role?

Well you know, the direction was to sort of be this kind of emotionless, simmering anger, but it's just all underneath this kind of emotionless facade. And I thought, well, I can do that. It's acting without acting, you know, as George Costanza might say, Jason Alexander. What I really remember a couple of things that the mall shopping mall was amazing because they, we were in there at like 5am and they filled it with people. So it looked like the actual Westfield during the day. And I was stood up on the balcony looking down like trying to pick out this guy in the crowd but it was like surreal because there'd be like 500 people and they'd all be frozen and then they'd go action and they'd move and it was like Westfield then they'd stop

you know and do it again and I was like you know I was new to all of this so it blew my mind. But the thing that really made me laugh was after I murdered these three people in the apartment, I run downstairs to my, uh, my car and I jump in and I like pull away and they're like, Oh, cut, cut. And we go again. I was like, Oh, was it timing thing? The position of the car? No, no. Um, it's BBC compliance. You got to wear your seatbelt. I was like, I, no, it's BBC compliance. You've got to wear your seatbelt. I was like, I've just murdered three people in an apartment. Of course, but you've got to do it safely.

Well, should I give way to a lady trying to cross the road? Is that, oh, go on, off you go. It just seemed ridiculous to me that a murderer would put a seatbelt on. But this is another thing I learned about filmmaking. Wow, I am glad I asked that question. There you go. Now got the in-depth experience of playing killers.

On to our last email then for this special Shrink the Inbox. We got another character based on a real life person and maybe our shortest ever email that we've had. Contents of the email just says, the perfect character to talk about. And the subject line is Al Sweerigen. Do you know who that is? It doesn't mean anything to me, this.

What does that mean? I had to look it up, Deadwood. Oh, okay. I thought this was like a haiku or something. Deadwood. Okay, I've got the information here. Al Swearegin, he's the protagonist of this show Deadwood. It's like a long form Western characters based on a real life pimp and

brothel owner of the same name. They change a few details about him and Ian McShane plays him in the series. Ian McShane doesn't age. I just saw him in a brand new movie last week and he just looks like Lovejoy in it. Yeah. I swear Lovejoy was like in the 80s. It was. I mean that was one of his biggest TV roles. I mean they bang on about Tom Cruise but Ian McShane looks like Lovejoy now.

Needs discussion. Did you watch Deadwood? No, I haven't seen Deadwood. It's a big show. I remember like it was a big, big show. Yeah, he's got a lot of shouts at the time. And he's a bad guy, right? This is kind of like the aftermath of Sopranos, right? Because this is 2004 it started and I just think the Sopranos changed everything in that respect. Having a villain as the... As the actual, yeah, as the kind of centrepiece. It's interesting to think of an actor like Ian McShane

coming back to play a role like he does in Deadwood. Like I say, I saw him in the movie the other day, funny enough, playing a homicidal maniac, and he just looked like lovejoy. So I think it's phenomenal when actors are able, very fortunate as well, because a lot of us like we have our moment you know in the Sun and then then we're gone because people relate us to that part that we played when we were young and they just

don't want to see us get older and be in this other thing you know so the guys that can transcend that or disappear completely because that happened to them anyway but have the wherewithal and the confidence and the ability and the talent to come back in their later years, even harder for female actors. I'm thinking of Winona Ryder as you say that. Yeah, Winona Ryder did it. With scissor hands, girl interrupted, Stranger Things. Yeah.

Huge. Before Stranger Things, in my mind, she'd be like Gina Davis or Molly Ringwald. Like she's so associated with the late 80s and early 90s. Well and I think how she was covered in the media as well. And then yeah, you know, the way they treated her little, some of the issues that she had that probably didn't help. When people see stuff like that, they immediately put in their mind, oh yeah, because she used to be famous and she can't handle not being famous. People always make that judgment. Like, I remember talking to someone about Rick Moranis and

they were like, Oh, God, he's like, just don't crack now. Like, no, no, he'd like literally left the business because he just like playing music and selling it for his website. Similarly with who's another 80s class, Andrew McCarthy. Yeah, remember him? Yeah, he was part of the Brat Pack. He was. So for younger listeners, this is like the sort of five, six hottest guys, the hottest actors of the 80s. Cool actor kids of the 80s. Andrew McCarthy was one of them and he disappeared and again, same thing like remember Andrew McCarthy, he must be screwed now was he that he hasn't had a job since he just went straight just for enough not interested in acting, all the vanity around it went into writing and producing and he's one of the main writers on

oranges and new black. Do you mean he's like he's been about he's been doing his thing for a long time, just not in front of a camera. But that's, that's the thing people have with their concept of fame is that if the person doesn't have it, they must be absolutely screwed. Whereas from the inside looking out, I'm like, I would kill to be in the creative industry without anybody knowing what I look like. That would be the dream for me, which is where Andrew McCarthy

is now. And for the people who come back and have their face front and centre like Winona, the bravery and the boldness to do it is actually, it's worth commending. And again, especially if you're a woman, because so much of a woman's appearance is is like picked apart Ruthlessly exactly. She actually looks amazing in strange things. I love her in stranger things. It's a brilliant brilliant role played Oh my god, I've still got the hots for Winona Ryder like 30 years later. So I don't hear it. I'm not yeah Wow, I actually auditioned to be in Do you remember? In Stranger Things. There's one season where Eleven felt a bit like on the buses goes on holiday. Like she was like out of town and she met some other weirdos, superhero people.

Yes. In a van driving around. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Whatever season that was. I think it was season two. I can't remember. Is that not when we see more about Steve and the ice cream shop because 11 is out of town? Maybe. Oh, I tell you what, you now definitely need to get in touch because Ben and I have probably made a total hash of our remembering a strange event.

But yeah, I auditioned to play one of that gang that she's with when she's on holiday or wherever she was in that series. I didn't think it was holiday. Yeah. It's so funny looking back because at the time I was like, whatever, it's just another show. Do you know what I mean? Stranger things. What's that? You know. Another woman who's done that Renaissance thing, come back. Go on.

Stifler's mom from American Pie, Jennifer Coolidge. Jennifer Coolidge. Yes. Because she is the unhinged, these gays are trying to kill me. Tanya McQuad and White Lotus. She is brilliant. Unbelievable. Do you know, until this moment, I'm not sure I've made the connection between Tanya McQuad and Stiffler's Mum.

American Pie gave us a lot more talent than we first thought. Imagine it would come out of that phone. Because it felt just like Porky's or something. It just felt so ridiculously lowbrow. Very throwaway. You've got Eugene Levy. You have got. You've got Jennifer Coolidge.

You've got obviously Natasha Lyon. Neil Patrick Harris. Okay. So talk me through his arc. I remember Neil Patrick Harris from Doogie Howser, MD. You remember that show? Yeah, yeah. I remember Doogie Howser. So this is the hardest one, I think, to come back from, is if you're a child actor. I mean, it almost invariably ends in disappearing from the industry completely or, you know,

tragedy at worst. You know, the artful Dodger story to, to, to hear more about tragedy. Check that out. But, um, Neil Patrick Harris yet to me, I was like, yeah, the guy from Doogie Howser, he's never coming back, never coming back. And then he, oh, but wait, he didn't just come back. Like he came back and so strongly, it's hard to think of anything that he hasn't been in over the past sort of 15 20 years that is a comeback his character Barney and how i met your mother obviously yeah a series of unfortunate events yes yeah that performance is unbelievably good and so funny consistently funny yeah Gunther when he plays Gunther that I think that's

my favourite please. Everything he says is so please afterwards please. Very good Ben. Yeah, Neil Patrick Harris phenomenal. Alright well let's take a quick break and then we're going to have him attack this deep dive this time into critical inner voices. So we'll see you shortly. From closing that first sale to opening a second store, as a business owner, you've hustled to accomplish a lot. But the rewards don't stop there. When you earn two times more points on things that matter to you and your business, easily track those business expenses, and experience flexible Aventura rewards, you'll realize how much more rewarding your hustle can be.

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I promised you we were going to talk about critical inner voices, didn't I? I made a promise. I hope I've kept it. Sometimes I don't keep promises. I should keep more promises in life. I'm so s*** about keeping promises. What's wrong with me? There it goes. How long I can see it? The critical inner voice coming through. We looked at Carrie, didn't we? And Sex and the City. And we touched on these internal voices because obviously she has one, it's like a part of the show, the narration. And we wanted to get deeper into critical inner voices. So we've got the Metaxas explainer on the way. You want to take over?

I will. Well, it's the voice that I sometimes refer to as the judge, this inner critic. And we've talked about judgment and being judgmental. They're often the voice that we think of as keeping us on the straight and narrow. And there will have been times when this voice has been very helpful and protective, but you might reach a stage where it's become an outmoded system when you're older and you might have outgrown it without realizing it. And our inner critic, as we just heard with you Ben, can be vicious. And a lot of the time, we would never be as mean or as critical of anyone else or as viciously critical as we can be of

ourselves. Sometimes the meanest, most harmful voice is our inner one. So where do they come from? They're a composite of many a voice of authority and the protective voices throughout our childhood. So that could include our parents, our primary caregivers, grandparents, older siblings, teachers, basically people who've been in a position of power through our lives. A coach maybe if you trained at sport, your babysitter, but they can be sort of peer relationships as well, influential best friends, siblings of your friends, interactions, any interactions with your peers. And all of these will have imparted knowledge or told us or taught us or modeled us to do things

or how not to do them. And we will have kind of interjected that and taken on board either whole rules, ways of doing things, fragments of information or advice. Is this sounding familiar? Very, a bit too familiar. Vincent sat nodding in front of me. So we will have made sense of the world from our own limited experience when we're younger by observation and or watching those around us or being in interaction with some of those figures that I mentioned earlier. And it might be as simple as the realisation, okay, in my family, we don't hug or I don't get the

hug I wanted or I get shouted at if I cry and then we internalize that information and it forms part of a very rudimentary framework for how we're making sense of the world. And these early life experiences are internalized and then taken in as the way we think about ourselves. So they become just a sort of the idea we have of how we are in the world. And that might include, you know, our experiences might include being rejected by our parents or a rejection of part of ourselves that we then learn to minimise because the world around us wasn't ready to accept it. You're too loud, you're too much, or maybe you're a bit quiet, or you don't like wearing dresses, trousers, skirts, or doing sport, or being gentle. All of those things we take on board to mean and change the behaviour and the way we then are. And I suppose all

of that affects the way we think about ourselves, our self-esteem, our confidence, how we act in relationships, and our general way of being in the world. And I think what's also really pernicious about these voices is we start to believe they're completely correct. So that ends up undermining our self-confidence because of course this voice is internal and we don't often share what we're saying about ourselves or believing about ourselves, but we totally take it to be the truth, which is why it's sometimes referred to as the judge. You know, that kind of all-knowing, truthful, higher power, they must be right. You know, this voice is the correct one I'm listening to.

Yeah, because it knows me best. Yeah, of course. Like, I am me. I know my deepest, darkest secrets, fears, loves, emotions. So if that's what I'm saying to myself, then obviously that's that's right. Everyone else is just giving me empty platitudes. Well and that's, you know, those people who are really important in my life early on said this or acted like that and that's how I've made sense of it and that must be right. Can we change these voices? Well, it's a real body of work trying to bring awareness to inner critical voices in the

first place, but it can be life changing to start noticing the judge. They are such long in the tooth patterns, and we often believe, of course, that these voices keep us safe, but they might have become redundant, and we might be following patterns or voices that we no longer need. So when you start to bring awareness to these voices and speak of them to someone else, in the therapy room you might be saying, well, what? Ouch. Where did that voice come from? And it can be that you're sat in front of a therapist and you think, oh, that's what they're thinking. You know, I'm no good or obviously I don't, you know, I can't do that. And when you start together to question the validity

of what's being said, that can be really powerful. You start to question what some of the evidence is for those beliefs. Where's that come from? Why do you say that? Who's actually judging? And when you start to disentangle some of those beliefs from, you know, disentangle the useful motivating voice, which we also have, from the vicious critical one, which can be debilitating, it no longer serves its purpose, which of course originally was to keep you safe,

which is really important. So again, it's a bit like a defense. We don't want to break this down completely, but we do want to notice when it's really loud and it's unhelpful. And often they can have taken hold when you were younger or more helpless, you couldn't stick up for yourself, look after yourself. And when you come to therapy as an adult, it can be liberating to realise, oh, why am I telling myself that? So you're saying a lot of the time it was way more useful as a baby or a toddler?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It might have been essential. It may have been that when you made a lot of noise when you were younger, the people around you were not up for that at all. And that that got shouted down. So of course that becomes learned behaviour. And I will not be quiet. You know, oh I'm too much for people, I can't possibly make a loud noise. When you start to

think about that, which is why I don't then speak up for myself when I'm older, because the environment was telling me, keep quiet, don't make too much noise. And I suppose when we can actually start to turn down these powerful instructors on our lives and then learn to live our lives differently, but they are pretty strong and once you start to rattle this framework that it does snap back to protect you again, it's not linear, this idea that you're suddenly going to lose these voices because of course in lots of ways they've protected you, it's a protective system that will stay with you but to bring awareness to it, you're frowning.

Yeah, that's the first step. I was thinking about how, you know, the process of changing this thing, you know, awareness first and then was there some kind of practice you can undertake to like, oh, like there is a game, actually, I'm going to turn left, not right. Yeah, or, or, oh, thank you. Yeah. And you were really useful at one point in my life, but I don't need you to say that anymore. But that, it's the simple act of bringing awareness to it that actually takes quite a lot of work because it's so ingrained and we don't make room for it in our lives and often we are believing them. So then it's really difficult to go, oh, is that actually true? Do I need that?

And it's not until you're in the room, in the therapy room for instance, taking away that judgment, people can start to unhook from that critical voice. Sounds like a big confidence booster if you can do that. You know. But it's practice isn't it? It's like new and alternative ways of being and ways of living take a while to become second nature. And that familiar pattern and safety mechanism is never far away. So if you're tired, if you're run down, if you're feeling low, it can hijack your thinking pretty quickly again.

But it is exactly like a muscle we can start to notice the voices and the critical thinking quicker catch it in the act and start to turn it down which allows us to lay out new pathways and that feels like an incredibly positive note to end on I wonder how much more insufferable I'd be if I just never had any critical voice. Now go and do it mate, do it, go for it, you're gonna nail it. Ouch, I wonder how much more insufferable I'd be. Ouch, so hang on, we need to unpick that little bit. They're really pernicious.

Oh, we've run out of time. Oh, we've run out of time. It's out of time already. Oh Ben. run out of time. Is that the time already? Oh, Ben. Can't get deeper into TV's BBS, I'm afraid. Plus, you can never be my shrink, unfortunately. No, I can't. Which is a real shame, because I actually

wish you were my shrink. Maybe that's a bit of, what do you call it? Idealization, I've been calling it. Idealization. Yeah. I think it's kind of. Because we've done 20 episodes together now. I know.

Is that still there, that thing we call it? That's like longer than half the therapists I've done sessions with. But I think it's probably a good time to take a break, no? Yeah, I think, break, break, break, yeah? Yeah, I'm just thinking of trying other therapists. No, I always say that's probably a good idea. Yeah, yeah. No, of course, of course not.

We might want to think a bit about why you want to move away from this therapist. Is it becoming too difficult? Not going to go there. But I think you're right. I think it breaks a good... We need to go and catch up on a load of TV. We've got so much to watch, so much more to research and there's so much prep. You lot don't understand how much Nimona has to do to be ready for a weekly

shrink the box. I just have to watch the shows and then just be laconic and just go, huh? Yeah. That's interesting. Do you know what I mean? It's much harder for the Mone. So we need time to prep, but I'm sure you're watching shows, you guys listening and there'll be episodes that you can catch up with previous episodes now that you're spoiler free, do you know what I mean? So that should carry you through. Definitely. So if you do follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts, you get the episodes as soon as the new ones come out. If you want to listen to Shrink the Box and get Kermode and Mayo's take ad free plus bonus apps, subscribe to Extra Takes. You can start your trial now.

You can still start that by clicking try free at the top of the Shrink the Box show page on Apple podcasts or you can visit and do that at extra takes.com. Big hugs and thanks to the production team, production management, Lily Hambly, assistant producer Scarlett O'Malley, studio mix engineer Josh Gibbs, producer Jeremy production team, production management, Lily Hambly, assistant producer, Scarlett O'Malley, studio and mix engineer, Josh Gibbs, producer, Jeremy Newmark-Jones, senior producer, Selena Ream, and executive producer, Simon Poole. Do you know, I'd also really like to thank The Hive Mind. So they're a community of psychotherapists and supervisors and peers whose thoughts and observations have massively helped

and supported the work that we've been doing on this show, Ben and I and the team. Basically in thinking about what's going on for these characters psychotherapeutically in life more generally. So you know who you are. Thank you very much. Yeah. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. Namone, what are you going to do with your time off? I'm going to dive into some more telly. I'm gonna dive into a really bubbly jacuzzi. No, you're not.

Challenge myself. I know, that's a different kind of therapy. Oh, there'll definitely be, yeah, I'm gonna go and do some dive into some water. Nice. Massive body of water, lake, sea, anything. Good job. Yeah. All right, well enjoy.

De-stress. See you on the other side., well enjoy. De-stress. See you on the other side. Meet you there. Ta-da.