Kermode & Mayo’s Take - Joker: Folie à Deux – BETTER THAN JOKER?

Episode Date: October 3, 2024

This week’s guests are Take fave Joaquin Phoenix and writer-director Todd Phillips, who tell Simon all about ‘Joker: Folie à Deux’, their musical thriller follow-up to the 2019 smash hit ‘Joker’, which sees failed comedian Arthur Fleck meeting the love of his life, Harley Quinn, while incarcerated at Arkham State Hospital. Mark also gives his take on the film, as well as offering his thoughts on various new releases, including ‘Harder Than the Rock’, a documentary exploring the overlooked impact and influence of the UK’s first reggae band, Cimarons, as they persevere against all odds and follow their dream of playing to live audiences one last time; and ‘A Different Man’, a black comedy psychological thriller, which sees an aspiring actor undergo a radical medical procedure to drastically transform his appearance, only for this new dream face to turn into a nightmare when he becomes obsessed with reclaiming what was lost. An interesting companion piece with ‘The Substance’, we reckon. Another brilliant session with the Good Doctors. Timecodes (relevant only for the Vanguard - who are also ad-free!): Harder Than The Rock Review: 08:05 Joaquin Phoenix and Todd Phillips Interview: 32:11 Joker: Folie À Deux Review: 48:13 A Different Man Review: 58:39 We're doing a LIVE show: Kermode and Mayo's Christmas Movie Spectacular - December 8th at 2.30pm at the Prince Edward Theatre in London. Tickets are selling fast at www.fane.co.uk/kermode-and-mayo You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] And to find out more about Sony’s new show Origins with Cush Jumbo, click here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, Simon and Mark here. This show is brought to you by NordVPN. I'm feeling a bit spooked, Simon. Why is that, Mark? Bad actors. Ah, you've been watching The Room again. No, not that kind. I'm talking about the kind that hang out online and steal your data. Oh, well, it's completely coincidental, but Nord have just the solution for that. Sure, public Wi-Fi can leave your computer wide open for snoopers, trackers, hackers and all those others to

get your data, but Nord helps you keep them at arm's length by linking you to VPNs and so hiding your data and location. Even while I'm watching Exodus Believer. Take the bad actors you like while blocking out the ones you don't. To get a huge discount on your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com slash take. Our link will also give you four extra months on the two-year plan. There's no risk with Nord's 30-day money back guarantee. The link is in the podcast episode description box.

Mark it falls to me to wish you a very, very happy podcast day, International Podcast Day, which is what? Which is what? I got sent a message from a boss, because there are lots of bosses, saying, happy International Podcast Day. So today, as we speak, but not when it's been downloaded, is international podcast day. Sorry, is there some reason for it being podcast day or is it like, is it an anniversary of the first time somebody said podcast or is it? If you look because I'm inclined to, I have been

inclined to do this, every day it's international something day. Like it's international pancake day or bicycle day or inner tube day or national aerial day. Someone has declared it international macaroon day for people in Iceland, but someone has declared it international podcast day, which gives journalists a chance to write about podcasts and for people like us to say, we were here a long time ago. We should take this opportunity since you're talking about podcasts to say that we didn't win an award at the, um, British podcast awards, but they gave us a cushion with a picture of our faces on it, which it seems to me a bit like

saying you haven't won anything now set on yourself. Yes. Where is, where is that cushion? I wonder, we should give it away. Why don't we give it away at our top live show? I think this is a perfect segue. I mean, we'll get onto that in a moment. Nicely done. But that cushion, which if you... We could both sit on before we give it away as a present.

Does that make it... Freshly warmed. Fresh freshly warmed by broadcasted bottoms? Some people would pay for that. There was a book by, was it Douglas Adams? Was it called The Meaning of Lift? A series of words. I don't know whether it was that, but anyway, a series of words and what they meant. And my favorite one was scrumbugly. And the scrumbugly was the uncomfortable feeling you get when sitting on a bus seat still warmed by the previous passenger.

Yeah, no, that was shoobriness. Oh, I beg your pardon. It was shoobriness. There was also scraptoft, which is the observed flap of hair grown by a vain and rapidly aging man. A flap of hair that you grow long over one side of your head and flap it over to the other side to make it look as though you've got hair. So it was a scrap. What's the word? Scraptoft, which I think is a town or a village in Leicestershire.

Anyway, everyone's very welcome to the show. And as this is a podcast, we are celebrating International Podcast Day together, which is a lovely thing. And also on this celebratory podcast, Mark is going to be reviewing these films. We have A Different Man, which is a kind of psychological, satirical drama. We have Harder Than the Rock, which is the story of Simran's, the backbone of British reggae. And Joker Folly Ad Deux with our special guests. It's Star Wacking Phoenix and its director, Todd Phillips. They will be with us shortly. And then our bonus premium segment for the Vanguard. What goes there?

More reviews, Die Before You Die, which is a claustrophobic thriller involving being buried alive. And it's an anniversary re-release for young Frankenstein. Frau Blucher. Which makes no sense at all, unless you've seen it. Also, our recommendation feature which is TV Movie of the Week, the Watchlist, Notlist thing. Ad-free episodes of Shrink the Box. Plus, we answer your film and non-film related queries and quantries in questions. Shmestians. You can get everything via Apple podcasts or head to extra takes.com for non-fruit related

devices. A seven day free trial. What an enticement that is. And if you're already a Vanguard Easter as always and incredibly together because our wifi is super, super charged on this international podcast day. We salute you. If you want to win a cushion with our faces on, which we've also sat on, at 2.30 Prince Edward Theatre in London, December the 8th. We've had an email from a friend of the show, very, very, very long-term listener and London

cinema historian who does fabulous guided walks of London's cinematic history, he being Nigel Smith. Nigel Smith, yes. The Prince Edward was built as a theatre in 1930. This is where we're going to be. In 1954, it was converted to London's first Cinerama cinema and built as this is Cinerama in capital letters. You become part of the world's greatest theatrical

attraction, cannot and will not be shown in any other theatre in the United Kingdom. This is Cinerama. No glasses needed to enjoy the awe-inspiring spectacle that is Cinerama. The curved screen, says Nigel, was 64, it's like IMAX basically. The curved screen was 64 foot wide and there were three projection boxes built in the orchestration stalls. The Cinerama screen was removed in 1974 and it became a normal cinema. That closed in 1978 and it was converted back to a theatre. It reopened with the world premiere of Evita, which is my favorite musical. So what a thing that was. Details of all my walking tours are at NigelSmithWalks.com. That's NigelSmithWalks.com. And here's a photograph of Prince Edward when it was...

That's amazing. ...when it was Cinerama. I have to say, if you've never done a Nigel Smith walk, they are absolutely brilliant. I did one with him not so long ago in Islington. It's like a real walk through the past because obviously London used to be absolutely littered with cinemas and a really fascinating, interesting discussion of this was there and this was there. He knows all this stuff inside out and he's full of these kind of anecdotes. But that is great. So basically, the place in which we are doing our Christmas special was the Casino This Is Cinerama venue before. So of course, we've ended up at the Prince Edward. It's so right for us and you can enjoy us without the glasses.

That's true. But also, I think in honor of the fact that the world premiere of Evita was at the Prince Edward, we should have some kind of, you know our band who are coming along, we should certainly do a sort of a sing-along for Don't Cry For Me Argentina or a medley of hits from Evita. So remind me of the name of the band? Rathbones. Formerly the Swingles Singers. Look at that. As a poster for Cinerama.

God, that's amazing. Did silent running play there? Because if it says London Casino, Old Compton Street, W1, Telephone, Gerrard, 6877. Every seat bookable, stalls, 15 shillings. This isn't the price of the tickets by the way, to come and see us, because we're much better. 15 shillings, 10 and six and eight because we're much better. 15 shillings,

10 and six and eight and six, dress circle, 15 shillings, 12 and six and six and sixpence. Two performances on a Sunday, 4.45 and 7.30. But for us, it's just one performance because we can't do it twice. I'm wondering whether that's where I saw Silent Running in that case. Because I saw Silent Running in Cinerama and we went uptown and I could never remember quite where it was. But maybe that's where I saw Silent Running. Well, it closed as a normal cinema. It was normal from 1974. Yeah, but-

And it closed in 78. But 74, Silent Running came out. I mean, it's, I don't know, I'll check it out. I'm checking it out. It may be, God, this is weird. This is like having a conversation with your own past. That's really strange. Well, brilliant. Thank you, Nigel, for uncovering. Where do I fit in if you're having a conversation with your own past? Am I your own past? Is that what that is? Yeah, you're the ghost. You're the ghost of my past. Fain.co.uk, Kermode and Mayo. I'm sure if you Google it, it'll come up roughly, right? Hyphens in between Kermode and, and, and Mayo. Okay. Anyway, Hard Than the Rock, the story of Cimarans. This is a documentary by Mark Warmington,

five years in the making, which uncovers the remarkable, and I have to say largely forgotten and overlooked story of Cimarans, who were the band who became known as the backbone of British reggae. The sound was Jamaican, but they were apparently the UK's first indigenous reggae band. Here's a little clip of the trailer.

Growing up in North West London, Harzdon, in the 70s and 80s, you could have been mistaken for the Caribbean or even Africa. I mean, you could have been in the Coronation Market, Jamaica, and you'd also be seeing the people, hearing the conversations in the street, be smelling the food. Musically, there were dances every week, house dances, blues dances, maybe two or three in the area. And on Friday Saturday night, we'd just get dressed, walk down the road, you listen, and you can hear the sound system pumping up here. Because those days, the sound system was really

the thing. And when you get there, it's good vibes, you know? You can buy a drink, you can buy food, and then you dance all night, you know what I mean? You see, I'm sorry, I could just carry on listening to that just for the rest of the show. Let's just keep playing that. What was also lovely is because your head was nodding. As soon as that started, your head started nodding along. Absolutely. So as session musicians, they were Trojan, they backed the likes of Jimmy Cliff, Dennis Brown. When Bob Marley came to Britain, the first tour of Britain, he was backed by the Simerons, not by the Wailers, but by Simerons, recorded with Lee Scratch Perry.

Had a number one hit in Jamaica, which is extraordinary for UK-based band. Then during the punky reggae, rock against racism era, shared the bill with bands like Clash, Shamp69, Generation X. Then in a really sort of weird twist, do you know Simranes? Is that a name that rings a bell with you? Not really. No, okay. Well, I felt exactly the same. I was watching this incredible story unfold and thinking, why don't I know this story already? Anyway, apparently they caught the eye of Paul McCartney because Linda McCartney was a very big reggae fan. And they ended up making an album of Paul McCartney covers done in a reggae style

called, I think, Reggability. There's a little bit of them doing Mull of Kintyre in a reggae style, which is very, very strange. Anyway, so the doc traces their original story, which is really fascinating because they played on everything. D Then catches up with the band years later, now older, perhaps wiser, preparing to play again. It's a terrific doc. First, he tells you a story that you can't quite believe you didn't know because there's loads of great archive

and loads of great photographs and recordings. But then it also has this, I mean, the archive is really interesting because the music is infectious. I mean, if you love reggae, you'll absolutely love this. But the more modern stuff is also really moving because they're coming back together again and they're facing age and the fact that things have moved on, the world has changed, and they're trying to get together to play again. I suppose in the same way, something like Six Feet from Stardom, it's the story of musicians who made some of the most memorable music yet somehow managed to just miss out on the spotlight.

The reunion footage is joyous and very poignant because obviously there's the specter of loss hanging over the rehearsals. But I think the central theme of the doc is resilience, the camaraderie of playing together, the defiance of this music, the joy of bringing reggae to the world and to a new audience. Anyway, I thought it was great. Harder than the rock. It's, as I said, a story of Simran's and it'll be an independent cinema, so you'll have to

seek it out and they'll be doing Q&As and that sort of thing. But I think you'll love it, Simon. I think as a music DJ, as the nation's leading and most favored music DJ, I think you will absolutely love it. The nation's number one entertainer is what my brother calls me. Somewhat ironically. Your brother's always had a sarcastic side. Absolutely. Is David Rodigan in it at all? No, no. Because he's the man. He's the man. Anyway, listen, I think you'll love the film and I would like you to see it because there's been a couple of things recently when I think you and I have not been on the same page. Like, I mean, have you rushed out to see Substance yet? No, I have known. Also,

the other day I was entering Greatest Hits Radio Towers and bumped into Boyd Hilton. Oh yeah, okay. And he said to me, don't go and see the substance, you won't like it. Did he? Well, I shall have a word with him about that. He definitely said, don't, he said, no, you, no, don't, just, just, it was like being warned, you know, don't, don't, don't walk past that house after 10 o'clock because there's bad things that goes on there.

Harder than the rock, very good. Okay, so will we have, will that be quite difficult to find? It'll be an independent cinema. I mean, it's not going to be like Joker, Folly, Adur, which is going to be absolutely everywhere. You will have to seek it out. But I mean, you can find it easily enough. Google the film and it'll take you to websites. It'll tell you where it's playing. When we do the box office top 10, which is now, there is one film in the chart, which at a particular cinema is like the only film that you can see, which is quite entertaining and we'll get to it in a bit. So box office chart in the top 10 this week at 23, My Old Ass.

Which I think is of the two Aubrey Plaza films that were released last week, this is the great one. I think she's really good. It's like a coming of age story in which somebody goes to an island, takes hallucinogenic mushrooms and meets an older version of themselves who warns them off becoming friendly with a young boy who they then meet immediately. I really loved it. I thought it worked really well. Number 15, by my audacity, is number nine in America. 15 here, not in the American chart, is Dragon Keeper.

Which I thought was kind of fun, looked good, nice animation. One of the voice actors is Bill Nye and I spent the whole film having not looked at the credits at the beginning thinking who on earth is that? Of course that's Bill Nye, but I thought it was actually rather well done. Number 10 is Never Let Go, number eight in America. Eerie atmospheric horror film starring Halle Berry in which it's a family in a woodland and they can go out of the house that they're in, but they must never let go of the rope that connects them to the house because if they do, then the evil that is in the woods

may get them. And does it get them? That would be a plot spoiler, wouldn't it? Do they actually let go at any stage? Does anyone let go? Yes. The rope is let go of, that's how the drama works. That would be very funny if you could never let go. Well, we didn't. And that was fine. Are they holding the tapestry ever after? Because they're still holding the rope. Different film.

Different film. Slightly disappointing film. Number nine in the UK, Shaun of the Dead. I mean, 20th anniversary of Shaun of the Dead, shocking to think that Shaun of the Dead is 20 years old. But of course, the film that for many people was the thing that put Edgar Wright on the map. I mean, really funny, but also really poignant. Of course, Bill Nighy, who's the voice in Dragon Keeper, is a significant role in Shaun of the Dead. I think the reason it works is because it takes zombie mythology and zombie lore seriously, even whilst making very, very Edgarite gags. I think it works really well,

and there's a couple of very, very moving moments in it, oddly enough. Jason Vale Number eight is Despicable Me for number 19 in America. Yeah, again, the Minions continue to entertain. I mean, I would just prefer that they just did Minions movies and I'm not actually bothered about any of the other characters, but it's continuing to do well. So number seven here, number six is Megalopolis. Shall I just read out some correspondence? Yes. Can I just say, I am imagining that this has proved divisive and that there's some people who will have seen it and absolutely loved it and some people who have seen it and hated it. I'm imagining that there'll be, I mean, certainly from my friends in the

critical fraternity, one of them I was speaking to yesterday, who thought it was one of the best things they'd seen all year. So yeah, but you know, critics, what do they know? So Doug goes first. Mark can say, I'm a big fan of the show, but I must write in to say I thoroughly disagree with Mark's assessment of Francis Ford Coppola's fable Megalopolis. There's something about this email, it's not that it's badly written, which is not, it's very well written. It feels as though, I don't know about Doug, there's no details here.

I just wonder if Doug works for the PR company. Okay. Okay. So see if you get the same groove. Okay. Megalopolis is truly a film that everyone who cares about film must see. With the 85 year old Coppola, late style has never been so stylish. The film is a wistful journey to the fantastical,

yet says more about modern society than any other film currently in cinema. It has a thousand memorable images and lines which have been burnt into my mind since I watched it on Friday. But beyond the immediate joy from its inventiveness and humour, I laughed more watching this than any other film this year, there is also a message that is worth passing. Francis has merged the works of Ayn Rand and David Graeber, who I looked up is an anarchist, activist and anthropologist, into an explosive political message

and combined it with his own Me Too paranoia. I won't pretend to agree with this message or even think it fully works. However, it is an authentic and interesting polemic. At a time when so many films present simplistic and safe pandering as some sort of social satire, I'm looking at the substance. This nuance, this ambition, this cinematic adventure must surely be celebrated. Thanks and best of luck with the show.

Okay. Well, thanks for the email and very well. I think that is a genuine email. That does sound like somebody who's actually a fan writing and defending the film. And good, thank you very much. I disagree with pretty much everything that you said, but you said it very eloquently. I mean, I think The Substance is a much more adventurous and subversive film. I think the problem with Megalopolis, quite apart from the fact that I think it's incredibly badly made and it's a bloated vanity project, is I think it doesn't say anything of any fact that I think it's incredibly badly made and it's a bloated vanity project,

is I think it doesn't say anything of any interest. I think it's got an incredibly retrograde view. I think its worldview is infantile. But this does demonstrate once again that the great joy of cinema is that people take different things. The person I was talking to yesterday was somebody who said, they said they absolutely loved Megalopolis, but they would have hated to have had to review it. I said, why? They said, because if they had had to review it, they would have had to say,

it is objectively bad, but they had enjoyed it and laughed all the way through. One of the things that we came down to discussing was, were you laughing at it or with it? I didn't laugh at all. I'll refer back to me and Kim Newman laughing our heads off during Hudson Hawk, which I think was meant to be funny anyway, as opposed to I think Megalopolis isn't. I think Megalopolis is very, very humorless and thudding. But thank you for the email. Obviously, you're not alone. There are people, as you know, if you've seen the posters, the film has its defenders. I think they're completely off-beam, but that's the great joy of cinema.

Barney says, after silence, the man who killed Don Quixote, Ferrari, and now Megalopolis, someone should let Adam Driver know he doesn't have to star in legendary directors' long gestating passion projects. Grant P. Colonial commoner Adelaide Australia. As a rule, I don't walk out of poor films before they're finished, but at the one and a half hour mark of Megalopolis, I was so bored, I started contemplating all of my life's choices, including why I don't walk out of poor films before they are finished. The answer was that they had usually shown however small some redeeming feature or hope that the film could still pull together something worthwhile together and I would regret not knowing when it did. I left five minutes later. As if to prove my point since I have left, I have not contemplated how the film ended.

Perhaps this is because to me it never really began and seemed more a series of outtakes from some strange star-powered student film arranged in no discernible order. If a script was written, it seemed to be by AI having been fed some fairly disparate references and poor dialogue. I can only hope it ended with Francis Ford Coppola, a man who has made some of the greatest films ever put to celluloid, stumbling onto screen, removing his head from his own behind after realizing what an ego trip he's just made and pronouncing to camera, oh, the folly of man, in a sorrowful tone before bowing his head as the screen fades to black. I've heard Francis talk about the themes of the film in the press succinctly and with brevity. I only wish he could have converted these qualities to the film. In a side note, if I hadn't left when I did, I wouldn't have seen the $20 note blowing

across the pavement in my direction, which was more than I'd paid for the film. So I guess I have the film to thank for something. Take any tongue and down with studio interference, but maybe not all of it." Which is an interesting point, Grant. In fact, that's what we were talking about last week. Sometimes the man, the money man, over your shoulder is saying, don't do that for very good reasons. The problem with Megalopolis, it is an untrammeled vanity project. It is something in which Francis Ford Coppola has put his own money into into it and therefore he can do whatever he wants. And you know, hooray. But sometimes whatever a director wants is not the best thing.

Now, I think that the fact that he, if he's made the film his way, I remember William Friedkin once said to me, and we'd had a disagreement about something that I'd done. And, you know, Billy had a habit of if you did something he didn't like, he told you that he didn't like it. And he tore me off a strip about something. But then at the end of it, he said, but you know what, if it's the way you wanted it to be, then fine, don't listen to what I'm saying, go your own way. And if the film is what Coppola wanted the film to be, then hooray, I just don't think it's any good. Yeah. The other thing which we've talked about a bit before is if you look at Monty Python's

meaning of life, where they had absolutely clearly loads of money to spend and compare it with Monty Python and the Holy Grail, where they had very little money to spend. I think everyone knows which was the more successful and funnier film. Before we're done on this, Merrick Angle, which is a fantastic name, Merrick, you should be an actor. Maybe you are. Gents, today was my day off, so I thought I'd mosey on round to the local art house flea pit and take in Megalopolis. On the walk there, I looked down at my phone and saw your podcast with the title, The Cinematic Equivalent of Toothache, which is a quote from you from last

week. Oh, I thought, and girded my loins for a real stinker. I was not disappointed. Loud, flabby, and having the visual style somewhere between Dick Tracy and a mural in a bad Italian restaurant. Bored witless, I decided to have a little sleep. I woke and realized absolutely nothing had happened. Absolutely nothing. Still bored, a non-code compliant idea occurred to me. Why not listen to Mark's review whilst watching the offending article? What a rare treat. No.

I chuckled away to myself as Mark loudly proclaimed, this film takes itself very, very, very seriously at the exact moment that Darth Architect pontificates standing on dream girders against a backdrop worthy of an Athena poster. Coppola should have kept the winery. Thank you. Merrick Angle, which I still love as a name, might use that in a book at some stage. I mean, that's definitely code non-compliant. Yeah, it is. But maybe understand how fun to listen to you destroy a film whilst watching the film. I mean, I would point out to listeners that you did once take one of your children to the cinema and you had an earpiece because you were listening to the cricket. Because

I think you were watching like some cartoon that you didn't want to particularly see, but you were listening to the cricket on an earpiece. Yeah, it was the football, but I wouldn't listen to cricket. The football, okay, sorry. I beg your pardon. So Lee's at number five, 15 in America. Which I liked very much. I'm really pleased to see that it's done as well as it has. Kate Winslet has really been out on the circuit doing the publicity for it. She was on the Stephen Colbert show and she did a very funny interview with Stephen Colbert,

in which at the end of it, they reproduced the final scene from Titanic using Stephen Colbert's desk to demonstrate that both Jack and Rose could indeed have floated off on that piece of wood. Anyway, but I think Lee's a very fine film and I'm glad that it's done as well as it has. Number five in the UK, 11 in the States, is The Substance. The aforementioned The Substance. You see, and for me, this is a film that's taking risks. This is a film that's adventurous. This is a film that, you know, it's a director going, this is the way I see it and this is how I'm going to do it. And yes, it's not for everybody, but I think it's thrilling and forward looking. And I think this is an interesting comparison to Megalopolis. This cost, the cost of this wouldn't have

covered the catering budget of Megalopolis. And yet it's so much smarter, funnier, more inventive. I mean, genuinely funny, like knowing it's funny. And I do think you should see, I think you should see Harder Than The Rock because I think that's right in your wheelhouse. But I think you should see this because- If Boyd Hilton says don't. If I've been warned off. Thanks Boyd. Thanks Boyd. If it comes to a streamer, I might. Okay. Well it will. It's going to come to movie. It's going to come to movie. So yeah,

you know. Number four here and number four in America is Devara, part one. Yeah, so not press screened, Indian, telego language, action, drama. If it's still in cinemas this weekend, I'll go and see it. But again, it's the usual problem that wasn't press screened in advance. How incredible that still hasn't changed because on International Podcast Day, we'll be doing the show for two decades. You've been saying that not press screen line, which is clearly true and that's clearly why you haven't seen it. But you would

think that it's clearly a very popular film, that if they press screened it and it had got mainstream journalists saying, yeah, this is great, you should go and see it, that it might be a number one film. I literally wrote an article about this for The New Statesman at the turn of the century. So there you go. And look at the affected hand. Look exactly. So now we come to the, I mentioned at the beginning of our podcast, the cinematic schedule, which had been dominated by one film. And this is that film. Number three in the UK is The Outrun, which we talked about on last week's show. So I have here the cinema schedule for the Phoenix Cinema, Orkney. Friday the 27th, The Outrun, 1300, 1630, 1930. Saturday the 28th, The Outrun, 12 o'clock, 3 o'clock, 6 o'clock. Sunday the 29th, The Outrun,

3 o'clock and 6 o'clock. Monday the 30th, through until Thursday the 10th. There is no other film at all other than The Outrun. Based on the bestselling memoir by Amy Liptrot, we've got the poster here, and this is courtesy of Rob, who says, Dear Papa Wastri and Papa Asiedu, long-term listener and Orkney resident here, with the release of The Outrun, I thought you might be amused by the schedule for the next couple of weeks at our only permanent single screen cinema, which I attach. It contains 39 screenings of the OutRun and zero of any other film,

if you're unable to open the attachment. What are we doing with Princeton? It would be fair to say that this film is the biggest cinematic event in all Cadian history, even if that isn't a competitive field. It seems like it might be quite hard to see Megalopolis here, which is probably a good thing, keep up the good work. Well, I haven't seen Megalopolis, but I would certainly say the outrun based on what I've learned is going to be a better use of two hours and 15.

So we did mention last week that, and this is what I was told by the people who made the film, that it's the first film shot in Orkney. It's not all shot in Orkney because some of it's in London. Gary Cousins says, following your coverage of the Outrun, which I look forward to seeing, there have been some other feature film shots in Orkney, including Palin Pressburger's The Spy in Black, 1939, Venus Peter in 1989, Blue Black Permanent in 1992, directed by Orcadian native Margaret Tate. It might be that the Out Run is the first film shot on Papa Westry, population 90, and one end of

the world's shortest scheduled commercial flight to Westry in approximately two minutes. As for Shetland, look no further than Michael Powell's The Edge of the World 1937 shot on fuller. Okay. So Gary, thank you very much. It is interesting that we were driving and we were listening to the podcast, The Good Lady Professor Her Indoors and I. And then you said that thing about it's apparently the first and I said, can that be right? And You said, well, that's what it says here. The good lady professor, her indoors literally turned to me with the death stare.

She went, Margaret Tate. I went, oh. She went, you literally sat and watched blue black permanent. I went, she said, why didn't you say that? And I said, because I'm stupid. She went, yes, because you're stupid. So next week. Anyway, there we go. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for some extra editorial input. Very good. Very good.

Two in the UK, number five in the States is Speak No Evil. Which I think is a really smart remake of a very dark film. The original, the Danish version, is darker in its conclusion. But I think that what this version does is take, okay, we really like that story. It's that awkward social horror that, you know, this couple go and stay with another couple and the other couple start acting weird, but because they're bound by social niceties, they can't leave. I thought it was really well done. I thought it was a really smart new take on a very, very dark original.

Still number one here, number two in the States is Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. Yeah, which was much better than I had expected it to be. I know we, I think there's a couple of people who'd written into the show and said that they found it disappointing. I didn't at all because my expectations were very low because it's a very long time ago since Beetlejuice and Beetlejuice is a really terrific movie which still holds up. I thought Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice had a lot of the spirit of the original, not least because it had a physical quality to it. It felt like Tim Burton was really enjoying himself and making a Tim Burton film.

So good for Tim Burton. Correspondence at curbandomaya.com. It's the ads in a minute mark. But first, as you gird your comedic loins, let's step together into our lift of laughter. I like the way you laugh before I've said anything. I know. When I actually do the joke, then you don't laugh.

That's right. I get all the laughing out of my sister at the beginning. Yeah. Well, hey, Mark. Anyway, nice to see you again. Me and you know who were out the weekend in the countryside and we saw some cows. So I said, oh, look, a flock of cows. A herd of cows, said the good lady ceramicist her indoors.

Herd of cows, of course I have. I said, look, there's a whole flock of them over there. Hey! Later in the day, we were rambling around and I spied something very interesting. What did I spy? I hear you say. What did you spy? I mean, this joke is like something out of the beano. I spied three brick lined holes in the ground connecting to an underground water source

into which a bucket can be lowered on some rope. Well well well. It's almost Christmas cracker time. Finally and somewhat mercifully I find it very unusual that there are a lot of Spanish words that begin with J, but very few start with the letter after that. And I just don't understand why. Poor Kay. Poor Kay. No I got there. I got there. I mean I found that painful as well. Todd Phillips and Wacken Phoenix on the way. Hey it's Ben here with a word from our sponsors at BetterHelp. Now I do a bit of Philips and Wacken Phoenix on the way. ourselves pretending, hiding behind something. You know, and therapy can help us learn to accept all parts of ourselves so that we can take off the masks and not worry about wearing

it in the everyday, maybe just keep it on for trick or treating. But look, if you're thinking of starting therapy, why not give BetterHelp a try? It's entirely online, it's designed to be convenient, flexible, suited to your schedule. You just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a registered therapist and you can switch therapists at any time for no additional charge. Now, with over 5,000 therapists in the UK already it means BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a wide variety of expertise. So take off the mask with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash curmode today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp.H-E-L-P dot com slashp.com. This episode is brought to you by MUBI, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating

great cinema. MUBI is the place to discover ambitious films by visionary filmmakers, all carefully handpicked so you can explore the best of cinema streaming anytime, anywhere. So Mark, what can people find on MUBI this October? Well, one of the highlights in October is Occupied City, the Steve McQueen film. This is an extraordinary portrait of World War II Amsterdam, which uses testimony from World War II, but interspersed with footage from modern day Amsterdam to create this really kind of strange disparity. I really like the film. I think you did too. That is Occupied City, which is on Mubi UK from October the 11th. You can try Mubi free for 30 days at mubi.com slash Kermode and Mayo.

That's m-u-b-i dot com slash Kermode and Mayo for a whole month of great cinema for free. When Henry III chose his royal advisors, he ended up with some very untrustworthy power grabbers, which led to poor management decisions, rebellions and at least one person in prison. Why didn't he use Indeed? Well, Indeed wasn't around back then, but it is today. Indeed is the ultimate hiring platform with over 350 million global monthly visitors, according to Indeed data, and matching technology that helps you find quality candidates fast. Use Indeed for scheduling, screening and messaging so you can connect with candidates faster.

When I was hiring, I didn't use Indeed either and the process was very slow and stressful, so I wish I had. Join more than 3.5 million businesses worldwide that use Indeed to hire great talent fast. And listeners of this show will get a £100 sponsored job credit to get So now our guest this week, Todd Phillips and Joaquin Phoenix, pairing up again after 2019's Joker for Joker Folly Adur. So here is the scene as you, so we're going to play a bit of the trail and then you'll hear my conversation with Todd and Joaquin. So Joaquin Phoenix has been on the show before, we talked to him for Napoleon with Vanessa Kirby and that was great. But he has a reputation for being a little bit, I don't know, playful or unpredictable. So normally the scene, so when you go into these interview rooms,

as you know very well, there's a host of people, loads of people and they're filming it as well. And so you've got cameramen and you've got sound people and you've got producers and you've got makeup people. And I'll have gone with a person from the show, normally Beth, who works on the show and she's sort of doing timings and all that kind of stuff. The message was very clear for this one. No one, there is nobody in the room. So we go in, there's Joaquin and Todd sitting either side of a table with a space for me in the middle. Even the person from the production company whose timing is out of shot. It just looks like there's three of us in a room. That's it.

Don't know why. I suspect this is an artistic decision that they want to look out and not see anybody else. Anyway, so that's where we are. But hey, that's fine. And it was a very nice room. And it was a very nice microphone. And they're very interesting people. So you'll hear from Todd and Joaquin after this little bit of the trailer. Two years ago, the name Arthur Fleck had got them like a hurricane.

The trial of the century. They believe Arthur Fleck to be some kind of martyr. Well, he's not. He's a monster. When I first saw Joker, when I saw you, for once in my life I didn't feel so alone anymore. And that is a brief clip from the trailer of Joker Folly Adeur. I'm delighted to say I've been joined by Joaquin Phoenix who's eating a bowl of fruit in case you hear any Mastication happening and Todd Phillips the director who is not eating but Joaquin you feel free Don't don't let me which I asked Todd stuff first

Ray if you really asked for it now Bit of radio drama That's good very nice to talk to you. Bracken's left briefly. At what stage in the last joke of film did you realize, maybe during it or after it, that you were going to have unfinished business? You know, I think we realized it during it for sure. Not so much unfinished business, we we've told the story but I'll quickly say you know oftentimes in movies my experience at least you're

making a movie and you're kind of in the last two weeks almost like school you're you're waiting for it to end I'm literally Xing out the days on a calendar like a prison sentence yeah but on the first Joker I wasn't doing that we we we kind of didn't want it to end. And two reasons, obviously, I think I could speak for a while, Kim, we love working together. But it was more than that. I think it was really that we loved Arthur and we wanted to continue exploring kind of the possibilities with Arthur. Now, when asked about it, because that'll be your next question, at least you said it was only gonna be one movie I

will say like Part of that is it seems rather presumptuous to go around saying we're gonna make another one before this one comes out You know, so so we was it was kind of something we spoke about ourselves, but never really spoke out loud But is that the same for you? So like you knew during the filming of the last film that you wanted to do some more Yeah, and it just was it's a character that you can just think of like Well, Todd can think of like endless scenarios to put him in that I would want to try And so so much of it is like we would just talk about about it Like what are the possibilities and I made you the poster that was like where I Photoshopped Joker's face onto every great classic film.

And I signed it and I was like, what are we doing next? But yeah, it was, we didn't know. It was just us saying like, yeah, we want to continue this process that we're having. And yeah, I mean, it was just a really special way of working for me. There were resources available. And that was really new and different. What kind of resources were available?

Well, time really, right? We had, Todd would think it was a small movie and I thought it was like a big movie in terms of, you know, the budget. But we had time. And that was really, that was really important to us. And we utilized that time. And that was, that was new for me. Is it true that you had a dream of Joker singing on stage?

I had a dream that Joker was telling his story and he was telling his story to an audience and he was on stage and he was making jokes and he was singing songs and I had an earpiece in and Todd had a microphone and he was on the side of the stage and he was feeding me lines and I woke up and I just was laughing and this seemed something so funny about it and I told Todd and this seems to be so funny about it.

And I told Tom, he's like, let's do it. Meaning like as a stage show, you know, like let's do it. Like a Broadway musical? Kind of, and then we kind of whittled it down to more like a club thing, like, you know, a really special, like six week engagement, three nights a week that if you got to see it, you got to see it, not to see it not film it not anything

and it would be sort of in my mind it would be legendary the people that got in the door you know what i mean we obviously didn't do that covid came we started but we took that germ of that image that i think wakine had and kind of went from there right so how did you i'm fascinated by the art of recording a movie with singing. We had a long conversation on the show with Tom Hooper about Le Miserable and how he went about recording the actors. What were the options for you or were there no options? Did you always know how you wanted to record those sequences?

Well, no, I mean, I wanted the actors to have a say in it for sure. And I mean, clearly Lady Gaga's gonna be a little more confident about singing live than maybe Joaquin would be in the beginning. So it's always anybody's goal, and I'm sure Tom probably said the same thing, to have the actors sing live and be in the moment. I think the thing that we did differently,

and maybe, I'm sure somebody's done it, but the thing that we did differently was they weren't singing to a track that so they were instead we had a pianist on set in a little soundproof area so the actors were able to lead and decide the tempo so Joaquin on take three could sing it entirely different than he did on take one and I think that's the part that- And the pianist takes the lead- From the actor, from Joaquin or of course from Gaga. They both did it that way. Now that is a headache in editing

because we now have to retrofit the arrangement to fit what they were doing, but it's also the best. So I think it gave him and her the freedom to kind of let the scene and the moment inform how they wanted to perform the song and not this pre-recorded track, you know. Yeah. But I would imagine your next question might be for him, is it about daunting that is or how hard that was?

How daunting is that? Hold on, let's stick with your questions. You're right, you're right. Actually, my next question was gonna be about comparing it with Walk the Line, because I loved your Johnny Cash movie with Reese Witherspoon, and the singing on the singing of that was terrific.

So we know that you sing, but finding Arthur's voice, what was that like? Was that easy? Did it just follow on from the way he spoke? No, I mean, we didn't really know how he was going to sound when we started. And the references I had for the songs was Frank Sinatra and Sammy Davis Jr. And there's a confidence and a smooth quality to their singing. And I tried to emulate that I tried to sing like the references. And then singing and I tried to emulate that.

I tried to sing like the references and then Todd and I just like listened to each other and we were like, what are we doing? How could he possibly try and sing like that? Like, he's not a singer. It should be emotion first. It should be cracked around the edges. There should be bad notes.

The phrasing should be cracked around the edges. There should be bad notes. The phrasing should be off and That I think I think it was it was bewitched For me was the song where I really I think found Arthur's voice Because we found something that was just pleading and When I finished singing it for Todd acapella, he said that's very uncomfortable And and that's what I think it should be and I was like I agree And so that was like that's what I think we really found

Arthur's voice. I was just wondering whether the extraordinary laugh, the manic laugh which Joker has, does that get in the way of the singing? It must take so much out of your throat that you couldn't laugh on the same day that you were singing, I don't know. I don't know, I don't know, I don't know if we did that, if we had.

Yeah, but his question, back to me, could you actually do it? Yeah Did it did it wasn't that taxing the laugh that it wouldn't that you wouldn't be able to I don't remember having that conversation Yeah, I just I think we got lucky it never it never came up. I mean certainly like by the end of For once in my life. My voice was like shot Like forget it not by the end. I like the second take It just was like gone. So you chose so the songs are classic songs We know them is was there quite a long list that you whittled down were there any ever the possibility of original songs?

Yeah, we talked a little bit about it But it really felt like it can be informed by music that Arthur knew first of all quite frankly You know, I don't know that we're gonna write better songs than some of those amazing, you know, standards, as you say. But I also think, listen, while Joaquin will never sing like Frank Sinatra, and it wasn't the goal anyway, when Frank Sinatra sings, you know, for once in my life, I have someone that I've found someone who needs me. I don't necessarily believe that that's the first time Frank Sinatra was needed by somebody. But when Arthur sings it, I do believe it was the first time

he found someone who needs him. So it totally changes the meaning of the song to me. And again, Arthur singing with so much more emotion in a different way. So I just think all of them took on a different meaning in an interesting way. Does music use like this inevitably lighten the dark of the film? Lighten the dark?

Yeah. Well, you know, Arkham prison is a pretty dark place. Sure. Gotham is a pretty dark place. When you have people singing, even if they're people in dark places, it can bring levity. I think it could, but I don't know that it does in the movie I know that wasn't necessarily the goal in fact

you know sometimes when we would talk earlier about the putting an arrangement then on top of what the actors do and then we bring in you Know Hilder our composer to kind of go on top of that and As I use a coin the term Hilder rise this song a little bit to me It doesn't necessarily make it light amazing H Hilda, Guna Dutia. Yeah, Guna Dutia. She, you know, it suddenly gives the song, I don't know that it's particularly light. Joaquin, you're interviewed by Steve Coogan.

In this movie, British audiences particularly will go, oh, wow, okay, we got Steve Coogan kind of playing a tabloid TV interviewer is would that would that be a bite right? What was just tell me a bit about that scene because I was intrigued by that that was one of my favorite scenes in the script and There's a lot going on but this is really this crucial moment where he literally just, you know, sings from the rooftops his love for Lee. And to have like the way that Arthur is in that moment, like he's so innocent and pure and seems like a kid, just so desperate to express this.

And what Coogan is doing, the antithesis of that, and it's just something really funny about that dynamic in the room. And I just have always been a fan of Coogan's, and he flew in, he got in the night before we shot that. I came and we, and we were meant to shoot the bulk of it on the second day, but we got through the first part quicker, right?

And we just started, there was like one point where him and I just kept going. Going deeper and deeper into the scene. We just started doing the scene. Because the scene's so long, oftentimes you'll break it in half and go, okay, today we're gonna do the first half of the scene. But by the middle of the first day, they were kind of just kept going and got them in.

I mean, it was really, it was actually kind of wonderful. But he's incredible. And he asked about Lady Gaga, you were a producer on Star is Born. Was it always going to be her? No. I mean, like I said, you know, we were leaning into music more and more. We were about halfway through the script before we realized, oh, this would be interesting for, um, to find an actor who brought music with them. Uh, so it wasn't a script that we wrote for her until about halfway through. And then we started kind of going back and

kind of reframing things. But yeah, it wasn't always meant to be. The script often tells me kind of where it's headed and who, you know, the writing process kind of leads you to the actor for me. And just finally, if there's time for this, you've talked about one of the things the film being about is the corruption of entertainment and within that's entertainment. Can you just speak a little bit about what you mean by that? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, at least in the states when when we can put trials on TV and sell commercials when we could put

presidential debate with graphics that mimic the UFC fight of the past Saturday night If if everything is entertainment then what is what we do what is entertainment? So a little bit of that idea of corruption. I mean, I think there's the idea of corruption in the movie, whether it be the judicial system, everything's corrupt, but also entertainment. And that's probably what I meant. I mean, that is what I meant.

What's, yes, I'm sorry. I was just, I was gonna say thank you. Okay, well thank you. What is next for you? I'm gonna get back to my kids more with Todd maybe Listen I I would love to work with Todd again and the feeling always I mean, she's the greatest I mean, but he had to like push you no. No, I didn't want to I wanted you to keep going. I mean, he's the greatest. I mean, but he had to like push you. No, no, I didn't want to. I wanted you to keep going. I was going to. Anyway, he's not done.

We are done. Todd Phillips and Wacky Phoenix, thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, really good to see you. It was an enjoyable conversation and you see, Wacky is just incredibly unpredictable and having done two interviews with like within a within a year really because the Napoleon one was just last year, you're never quite sure where he's going to go next, which is presumably one of the reasons why he's such an acclaimed actor. Well, I think you've done two interviews with him and in both of them he's very much warmed to you. Did he remember you from the last time? I would not. There wasn't really time to say, hey, you much warmed to you. Did he, did he remember you from the last time?

I would not. There wasn't really time to say, Hey, you know, I spoke with Vanessa Kirby and she kind of kept you in, you know, in control. So I, I wonder if he worked better when he's paired with, but obviously, clearly he's paired with his director and they get on very well and they like each other. And so therefore it works very much as a, um, as a combination. But I, yeah, I hadn't heard of anyone working with doing a musical, which they don't want to call it, but it kind of is, is working with a pianist on set in like a sound booth, leading, leading the singing. Okay.

Weirdly enough, that is pretty much what happened with Les Miserables because they wanted to get the singing recorded on set. So what they did was the cast of Les Miserables, and I believe that Anne Dudley was involved in this, the cast had earpieces on which the piano was being played off set so that they could sing and the piano could play with them, and then the orchestration could be done to the piano. So that's the first time I had heard of that. I'm not saying it's the first time it was ever done, but that was the first time I had heard of it. That was how they solved precisely that problem of you want the vocals to sound like they're

happening in situ within the drama. In fact, there's one sequence in Jokofali Adur in which Joachim Phoenix is on a phone in prison and he sings Numekitpah if you go away. It's breathy and it's almost spoken. Actually, it did remind me of Anne Hathaway doing that famous number in Les Miserables in which she's almost talking the early part of it. So weirdly enough, whether they want to call it a musical or not, it is, and there is a crossover there. So here's the thing, very good interview. It is a very strange film. And I don't mean that as a criticism. I think I actually mean it as a compliment. If you remember the first one, you know, Scoop the Prize at Venice, Joaquin Phoenix went on to win an Oscar. And the people who didn't like

it used words like toxic and cynical and irresponsible. And you know, the story is this central character who's got this medical condition that turns internal screams into this cackling laughter and he dreams of becoming a stand-up comic and he ends up having this, you know, on-air altercation with this character played by Robert De Niro, Murray Franklin. And so basically the previous film was King of Comedy Meets the Killing Joke. If that's the case, then this is the TV movie of Helter Skelter meets natural-born umbrellas of Gotham. As before, you've got Todd Phillips, he of The Hangover, who co-wrote it with Scott Silver. It opens with a Looney Tunes cartoon, which I think is Sylvain Chalamet, in which the Joker gets into a fight with his own shadow and his shadow sort of ties him up.

And this isn't just a sort of silly distraction. This is kind of the story of what's happening, because there's a part when Arthur Fleck tells a joke, knock, knock, who's there? You know, Arthur Fleck, who? And so that. That's the question that the film raises. It's a psychological courtroom drama in which action sequences are replaced by these nicely shabby musical numbers and the destructive urges of the central pair are played out like popular TV show set pieces and Sonny and Cher style duets. So Arthur is in prison for the murders that happened in Joker. He's facing trial and a death sentence if guilty.

Lady Gaga is Harleen Lee Quinzel, who is a patient at the Arkham State Hospital, who Arthur meets at a therapeutic singing class, which is how we introduce the idea of music as being the key to their relationship. They click, they start singing together, they fall in love, then she gets let out. She then becomes a squeaky from Manson girl who's like a cheerleader for him outside leading a band of supporters who see him as this messiah and turn his trial into even more of a circus than it would be with a

clown at the middle of it. In the first film, I think the strongest suit, the thing that gave it depth was definitely Hilda Goodenadotte. Incidentally, there was a lovely moment there when you did Hilda Goodenadotte's name. Yes, he struggled. Because if you remember in the first interview we did, he talked about, yeah, it was great working with Hilda Gooden. Anyway. He's got it slightly better, but you could hear there's a kind of a, did I get that right?

But again, I think when the script of the original Joker didn't have depth, then the Hilda Gooden-Dotter score gave it. Now, this time we have these sun fantasias which evoke the imaginary world that Joker and Lee Harley, in which he's the crown prince of Gotham and she's the queen of chaos. It's interesting in that interview talking about they first envisage it as a nightclub stage show because it sort of does look like that a little bit. The city is falling apart, the world is falling apart, and the singing is falling apart. It is authentically ragged and it's meant to sound live and as if they're in context. There was a thing in your interview when Joachim Phoenix said, emotion first, cracked around the edges, bad notes, and that's fine. That's all exactly what it has. And it really

shouldn't work. And at times, it doesn't. But for enough of it, it does that I ended up being pleasantly surprised. I mean, when I say it's a strange movie, I think it's a movie that may not be what the people that love Joker want from the second film. I don't know. It is a very dark film. And again, Hilda Goodenadotte's music gives it real depth. I think, weirdly enough, it does have the strength of its convictions. And it is much more downbeat than the first film, despite the fact that it has these kind of musical fantasies. When it was interesting, when you said, does it lighten the tone? If anything, I think those musical sequences, they darken the tone.

They kind of make the dark stuff worse. And that's clearly what Todd Phillips thought. I think he's right. I think he's right. And that thing when he was talking about the corruption of entertainment, well, does that work? I mean, I don't know. I mean Obviously, the first film had a lot of network in it, so there's echoes of that here. I have a sneaking suspicion. I literally watched this film in a state of, God, this is not quite what I thought it was going to be. I have a sneaking

suspicion that it might actually be the better of the two films. I don't know that it'll be the more popular of the two films. I haven't seen what the reviews have been like and I don't know what the response to it has been like so far. But it is very odd. There's a part of me that is kind of, for all the things that there are sections that don't work, there are sections that feel like grandstanding, there are sections that think this is an entire franchise built on a gesture, a gesture of

Joaquin Phoenix's head thrown back, arms thrown out, leg kicked forward, cigarette smoke in the air. But that's a good gesture. And I think that the oddness and the fact that it is quite as miserable as it is, I mean, it is a miserable film, isn't it? I don't mean that as a criticism, but it is a miserable film. Yeah, you see, that's where I think the songs actually do lighten it. Right, right, right.

Because I found the first one darker than the second one. Okay. And I left thinking, I'm not sure that worked. But then, since then, I've thought, actually, I think it did. So it's sort of grown. I thought about it in the intervening period and I thought the film's got better the longer I've left it. So I found that intriguing. I wasn't a fan of the Steve Coogan bit. I found that annoying and distracting. But I thought his performance, Wacky Phoenix's performance, and there's a bit of this in the trailer, so people might have seen it, where he looks like he's in a cab. He's actually in a prison van.

And his face is going through so many different emotions. It's like he's trying out various ideas, various thoughts, and then he's cackling and laughing. I just thought it was extraordinary, which is why I asked him about whether he could sing and cackle at the same time. And obviously he didn't have to do that. So I do think it's, I agree, I think it's the better at the same time. And obviously he didn't have to do that. But so I think it's, I do think it's, I agree. I think it's the better of the two films. Yeah. I mean, I think it has the strength of its convictions.

And I think that the first film had very few convictions. So what an odd thing. And a very interesting ending, which we will talk about where your attraction is to the, what's happening in the foreground, but actually the significant thing is happening in the background. Yeah. So, interested to know what people make of when they see Joker Folly Ad De, correspondence

at Kermann and Mayo dot com. What are you going to review in our next section, Mark? A different man. Hey, it's Ben here with a word from our sponsors at BetterHelp. Now, I do a bit of the old different man. find ourselves pretending, hiding behind something, you know, and therapy can help us learn to accept all parts of ourselves so we can take off the masks and not worry about wearing it in the everyday, maybe just keep it on for trick-or-treating. But look, if you're thinking of starting therapy, why not give Better Help a try? It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, suited to your schedule, you just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a registered therapist and you can switch therapists at any time for no additional charge. Now with over 5,000

therapists in the UK already, it means BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a wide variety of expertise. So take off the mask with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash curmode today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash curmode. Hey Mark, I find that I've been thinking recently about merch. Merch? Yes, merchandise, especially all those goodies we have for sale online, you know, branded mugs, t-shirts, water bottles, you name it.

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Why can't it be Mayo just for once? It's easier to spell currmode. They've gone for Shopify.co.uk slash, let's say it together, curmode. Just before we're done on Joker, I do think it's one of those films that people will get. I hope we get some correspondence on because it will affect people in different ways. People will take different pluses and minuses from it. But as to whether it's dark or a lighter, more enjoyable or less enjoyable. Obviously, if you're listening in Orkney, you can't see this film because the only film you can see for the foreseeable future is the Outrun. So you might have to

go to Shetland to see it. But anyway, what else is out for everyone apart from people in Orkney? Yeah. So A Different Man, which is billed as a black comedy psychological thriller written and directed by Aaron Schimberg, who made the 2019 drama Chained for Life, which co-starred Adam Pearson. Now you may know Adam Pearson. He had a brief role in Under the Skin. He was a presenter on BBC's, BBC Three's Beauty and the Beast, The Ugly Face of Prejudice. a presenter on BBC Three's Beauty and the Beast, The Ugly Face of Prejudice. Oh, was that on Channel 4? Anyway, he was the subject of a Horizon documentary, My Amazing Twin. He's a remarkable man. He has neurofibromatosis type 1 and is very smart and funny and eloquent. Anyway, he was in Chain for Life and he co-stars again here.

The story here is Sebastian Stanis Edward, who is a wannabe actor who has neurofibromatosis. At auditions he's passed over because he doesn't look like everybody else. At home he keeps himself to himself. He's learned to withstand the torts of others. A new neighbor moves in Ingrid who is played by Renate Reinsfer, who was so brilliant and the worst person in the world. She moves in next door, they become friends. He's surprised because he's obviously led a fairly lonely life and it turns out she's a wannabe playwright. She's working on her first play, which it turns out is inspired by him because she finds him an inspiring character. Meanwhile, he gets offered a new treatment, which may, in inverted commas, cure him, cause his old face to fall away, leaving behind a new face,

the face of Sebastian Stan. So, there's almost like a science fiction element in this. I mean, not a million miles away from the substance. So, now he has a new face and a new name, substance. So now he has a new face and a new name and the drama moves forward and he's obsessed with the play that's been written about him, although she doesn't realize that it's him, and he wants to star in it. But in order to do that, he has to wear a prosthetic mask of his old face to play a character who he's based on himself. Meanwhile, Oswald, played by Adam Pearson, we speak more of earlier, shows up to rehearsals. And it soon becomes clear that Oswald will be much better suited to the role and has some really smart notes

to offer on the drama. Here's a clip. I was sad when he offed himself in the end. Yeah, it's a tragedy. I mean, I know there's nothing can really be done about it. And I really like Edward. I'd rather pass the chat, while I'm caught for the suicide.

But honestly, I was really hoping Edward and Fiona would live happily ever after. But then, what do your audience believe that? I love your accent. I get that a lot. You yanks love my malicious, lyrical finance. But back at home, I'm just a bloke.

No one pays any attention to me, asshole. Oh my god. We should have Edward have an accent. I reckon the critics would find it a really classy endeavour. That's a great idea. Guys, speak like Oswald. I can't. You can't. Hello mate. How's it going? Hello mate. Yeah.

How's the old lady doing? How's the old lady doing? Horrible. I mean, it needs some refinement, but we'll get you there. So anyway, gradually Edward starts to feel that his new face has stolen his life as Oswald, who's witty, popular, gregarious, talented. At one point he's asked what he can do and there's virtually nothing he can't do, including karaoke singing. Oswald is getting all the love that Edward had originally longed for. Anyway, look, it's a fairly complex conceit and it runs the risk of going seriously wrong, but it doesn't for a number of reasons.

I think those reasons are firstly, the transformation of the central character is taken just seriously enough that you can get away with it whilst retaining a kind of fairy tale Twilight Zone conceit. You'd say you don't question it. As far as the fairy tale part of the story is concerned, you know, all the Beauty and the Beast stuff, all this is addressed head on, pretty thoroughly deconstructed and done so very wittily. I think the third thing is that the writer director is smart enough to understand how to deal with complex material. There's a scene early on where Edward is at home watching the television and you can't see the screen, but you can hear the dialogue. I thought, that's Drilla Killer. That's Abel Ferrara's Drilla Killer. I then went and looked it up and I was right, it is Drilla Killer.

He got Drilla Killer in because Drilla Killer is a great movie about New York, whatever else it may be. There are other things that very specifically reference Serrano de Bergerac, Tony Morrison's Blue Eyes, but the reference points are very smart. Then I read an article afterwards in which he talked about Bunwell's obscure object of desire and face behind the mask and Elephant Man and all that stuff. So he's done his homework. He knows the ground. But the main reason it works so well is that Adam Pearson's performance is just really smart. It's really on the money. It's really funny. It's really winning. It's really disarming. You really can believe that the Sebastian Stan character is going, what happened to my life? This thing happened that I thought was going to improve it. Suddenly, my entire life has been taken over by this other person who's not only dealing

with all the things I couldn't deal with, but everyone loves him and he can do all this stuff. I think that works really, really well. There's also a great performance by Reinsfer who negotiates the middle ground between the two characters. Really nice score by Umberto Smerilli, shot in a way that kind of negotiates that netherworld position between fact and fable. And again, I think it's a really surprising and adventurous film. And again, I would say put this next to a film like Megalopolis, which is bloated and fatuous and dull. And you go, when people's defence of Megalopolis is, well, at least it's doing something new. No, it isn't. A different man is doing something new.

And that is the end of take one. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team, Jen, Gully, Vicky, Zachy, Mattie and Beth. The producer was Jem, the redactor Simon Poole. Mark, what is your film of the week? Well, it's a hard call because I think, you know, I want people to go and see all three of the films that I've talked about. You know, I want them to go and see Harder Than the Rock because I think it's this kind of, you know, elegiac rhapsody to this band. Yes, you said that. I really want them to go and see

a different man. I'm just recapping. I want to go and see a different man because I think it's, you know, great performances. But I think in the end, I'm going to go for Joker Follyadur, not least because I really didn't expect to. Take two has already landed for subscribers. Don't forget to get your tickets for our Christmas Afternoon Spectacular at the Prince Edward Theatre in that there London on December the 8th. The matinee is at half past two in Cinerama, Winner Cushion, which we've sat on. Now even if you live in the provinces, we've checked and there's plenty of time for a train afterwards.

So here's the timetable. There's an 1809 from London, Euston to Birmingham New Street. So you should be able to make that with the following ring. There's an 1842 from Euston to Liverpool Lime Street, an 1800 from Padding Houston to Birmingham New Street. So you should be able to make that with the following ring. There's an 1842 from Houston to Liverpool Lime Street, an 1800 from Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads, an 1812 from London, Houston to Manchester Piccadilly, an 1829 from Houston to Glasgow, an 1843 from Paddington to Swansea. Obviously engineering works. There's an 1800 from King's Cross to Edinburgh Waverley. There is literally no excuse not to be there. The top cushion will be given to the people who've traveled the furthest to come to our

top show. Head to feign.co.uk slash Kermit and Mayo or on our socials. We're an X Insta Blue Sky threads and Facebook. Thank you for listening.