Kermode & Mayo’s Take - PEAKY BLINDERS’ Polly Shelby: the silent observer in all of us – SHRINK THE BOX

Episode Date: July 30, 2024

Ben and Nemone discuss Helen McCrory’s iconic Poly Shelby from Peaky Blinders. She’s a devout Catholic, but up to her neck in the murky world of bootlegging and murder. Nemone gets into the thorny question of how she might match those up, and reveals how each of us has a ‘silent observer’ inside. We also dive into the history of women’s rights in 1920s England. Look out for some killer lines from our Polly, too. If you like this, you’ll love our look at Cersei Lannister and how to lead violent men using more than physical force, and the toll that takes. We want to hear about any theories we might have missed, what you’ve thought of the show so far and your character suggestions. Please drop the team an email (which may be part of the show): [e-mail] NEXT CLIENTS ON THE COUCH. Find out how to view here Reginald "Bubbles" Cousins, The Wire (Season 1) Moira Rose, Schitt's Creek (Season 1) Raymond Holt, Brooklyn 99 (selected episodes) Jackson Lamb, Slow Horses (Season 1) Carrie Bradshaw, Sex and the City (selected episodes) CREDITS We used clips from Seasons 1&2 of Peaky Blinders. It’s available to watch on BBC iPlayer. Starring: Tommy Shelby - Cillian Murphy Polly Gray - Helen McCrory Arthur Shelby - Paul Anderson Ada Shelby - Sophie Rundle Finn Shelby - Harry Kirton Lizzie Shelby - Natasha O'Keeffe Linda Shelby - Kate Phillips Created by: Steven Knight Directed by: Otto Bathurst Tom Harper Colm McCarthy Produced by: Katie Swinden Laurie Borg We would love to hear your theories: [e-mail] A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts. To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail]. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up y'all? It's your man, Mark Strong. Strezy. And your girl, Gem, the gem of all gems. And we're hosting Olympic FOMO, your essential recap podcast of the 2024 Olympic Games in 20 minutes or less every day. We'll be going behind the scenes for all the wins, losses, and real talk with special guests from the Athletes Village and around the world.

You'll never have a fear of missing any Olympic action from Paris. Listen to Olympic FOMO wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, it's Simon and Mark here. This week, Ben and Nimone are putting Polly Shelby from Peaky Blinders on the couch. Yep. Expect talk on why Polly is such a maverick, why a woman of religion and morals condones extreme violence and well there's plenty more for you to get into, no spoiler alerts for now. Enjoy the show, they would love your emails, voice notes and anything else you want to

send at shrinktheboxatsonymusic.com. But I should tell you something. I will never forgive you. Or accept you. or take you in. And it's me who runs the business of the heart in this family. And as far as I'm concerned, you're a snitch from the parish. And if you're not gone from this city by tomorrow. I'll kill you myself. ["Spring Day in the City"]

Ben Bailey-Smith here. And I'm Namo Metaxas. And it's another week, another shrink the box, and another chance to put our favorite fictional TV characters into therapy with our resident psychotherapist, Namo. He's gonna look into what their issues might be and approaches to help that we can learn from too. Well, and we only have the length of this episode

for some quite complex issues to cover, Ben. And our way of thinking about it is obviously not the only way. So we would love to hear what you think as well. Has what we've said resonated with you? Or do you feel like we've missed something? Talk to us. Tell us your theories.

Shrink the box at sonymusic.com. All right, the moment enlighten us. What's going on with the clip we just heard? That was Aunt Polly who may not be the official head of Peaky Blinders, but she really wields the power behind the throne often. That's when there are a number of reasons why she's become so tough. And it's not just because she's related to a bunch of gangsters. No, Helen McCrory as Polly Shelby. She's, she's not married into the family. She's a Shelby Shelby, isn't she? She, yeah, yeah.

I think she's Shelby by now. Yeah. So she's the sister of the evil dad that we see in season one, like around episode four or something. He pops in, doesn't he? And you get a sense, there's loads in her performance in there that a sense of various different traumatic moments from her past right which Helen is is so expert at getting across there's no other character within it ironically since you've got these young men who have been

to war there's no other main character in that series who feels as much like they've lived a life and a half and she's fleshed out for a female character. She has, there's a lot that we learn about her, surprisingly as you say, because there's a lot of different traumatic stories for many of the main characters. It's fascinating for me to look at a crime family from the view of a woman. And obviously you've got Tommy front and centre of season one of Peaky Blinders. And as we move into season two, I think you start to see more female perspectives, Polly's included and then as you carry on through various seasons, more of the women come to the fore, which I guess follows the socio-political

kind of historical aspect of when this was set. You could easily get away with just going, well, we don't really need to flesh out this female character because women didn't have a lot to say at the time. So this is, you know, it's socially historically correct. You could easily take that cop out. Yeah. And yet at this period they were fighting for more rights. There's loads going on. Yeah, exactly. It's just a case of can you be to ask the deeper questions about this character? And yet with Polly and several of the women on this show, they absolutely have.

In meeting Tommy, he says, this company is a modern enterprise and believes in equal rights for women. This company is a modern enterprise and believes in equal rights for women. And in fact, it does, mate. And Polly's backstory gets developed even more. Even the soundtrack in the second series, actually,

you've got more female artists, PJ Harvey, another Polly, Laura Marlin, Anna Bruhn. Season one was mainly male artists. So except, I mean Meg White obviously in the white stripes. And I thought they might have used a PJ Harvey track in season one, but I think largely it was Nick Cave in the bad seeds. When you hear PJ Harvey's voice, it becomes like, just like Nick Cave in parts elements of the first season. It Feels like an additional character. Ah, and haunting. And I feel like some of their work, I mean, obviously Nick's has written years ago,

as was Polyjean's, PJ Harvey's. It feels like it could have been written for Peaky Blinders. So coming up, we're going to explore why Poly was such a maverick, why a woman of religion and morals condones extreme violence, and we all have, have apparently a doer, done to or silent observer within us. Is that correct? Yeah, that is kind of unseeing observer. Right. So we're going to investigate what those terms really mean. And as this is Peaky Blinders,

there's obviously going to be adult themes and probably adult language. And some themes might not be suitable for all listeners to just be careful beforehand and in the meantime yeah find yourself a little nook in the garrison settle down get yourself some moonshine relax and welcome to shrink the box all right shrinkers if it has been a while since you watched this series, here's our regular recap. As always, season one, it's 1919, season two goes up into 1921 and those are the only two seasons we're going to look at around Elizabeth Grey, named Shelby, otherwise known as Polly, who as the moment is saying is the matriarch of the Peaky Blinders, this violent

crime family based in Birmingham. She's the aunt of Tommy who's the kind of, he's basically the leader and his brothers who make their money as bookmakers and racketeers. There's also a sister Ada who's, you know, she's not directly linked to the crime per se. Polly been looking after things when the boys have been at war, in the Great War of course, and in series one we see her fighting Tommy to hand in this cache of stolen guns. In season two she sees Tommy, Arthur and the family expand their business to London, which she's very reluctant about. She can feel danger coming and we learn a bit more about her interior life and her past. That she's a mother we found out in series one but we didn't dig deeper into it that she had a son and a daughter and the beginnings of that story are starting

to unfold in series two. A lot of fear from her isn't there about her? Absolutely, absolutely. Over extending themselves I think. Tell us a bit more about Polly Shelby. Okay, 35 years old, mother to, as you said, son and daughter, Michael and Anna Grey, widower, aunt to Arthur Thomas, more commonly known as Tommy Shelby, John, Ada and Finn, the five Shelby offspring. She always goes in Thomas though, doesn't she?

She does, that's definitely telling off. Traveller heritage, she probably has. As you said, matriarch, used to running Peaky Blinders whilst the men were away at World War I. She's a leader, compassionate, can be calculated, not afraid to be herself often sexually and spiritually. She's Catholic. We see a lot of her religiosity.

I would say she's part of a burgeoning feminist movement, whether she would call herself that or not. She also displays both feminine, strong and masculine characteristics and I think she's one of the most integrated characters, certainly that we see on this TV show. Matriarcha Mother. So this character bucks the trend as the self-sacrificing sweet mother. Polly plays it differently, wild, fierce, not afraid to live her own life, independent of the men around her, show her own desires,

she's nurturing, she's loving. And as I said earlier, rarely do you get a fully formed female character like this in the media. And she, as a result, she can be terrifying to lots of the male and female characters around her. Society struggles to welcome multiple aspects of that kind of mother matriarch woman because it's so powerful. They've definitely done something different with Polly in Peaky Blinders.

And our introduction to her is key. She's holding a gun to John, one of the Shelby siblings' head, slapping him to the ground, and we can see immediately she's not to be messed with. She holds some fair amount of authority in the family. Definitely. And I think she comes across as being unafraid to assert her dominance and that theme of leadership continues throughout that first series. She's businesslike, she isn't afraid to let them know when she thinks they've done something

wrong. And her fear and anger turn into kind of a powerful strength, I think. If she's afraid, that comes out as power from her because she kind of fights back and I'll come onto that because that's connected to our doer and the feeling of being done to. She's, I kind of called her the silent boss of the family because obviously they're not talking to Polly as matriarch, head of Peaky Blinders, but she certainly wields some power. I think she was like the acting boss during the war and then with the return of Tommy

I think they treat her like a consigliere, you know, like so it's sort of like a second-in-command But a thinker to go with the boss who should also be a thinker Polly is the mother figure in the family and while she can be firm She has a nurturing side, especially for instance when she finds out that Ada's pregnant judge like judgment There's a lot of judgment from Polly in various areas, but not about this. You're absolutely right. And that's really key to her character. We'll come on to the idea of shame in the therapy room as well.

But she says when they're outside the abortion clinic, keep walking Ada. If anyone sees us here, they will know. And Ada says, I'm not getting rid of it, Aunt Polly. Just come home and we'll talk about it. So she really wants to protect Ada in that moment. Yeah. She's emotionally mature. She's able to deal with these complex situations and she has empathy. So she might be more of a talker than Tommy initially, I don't know. But what do you think might be one of the first things she'd mention to you?

We also see her look for outside influence to kind of work with some of her trauma. So she'll go to a seance. She will be looking for kind of, I suppose, yeah, answers or so she to your point, she may well be more likely to walk into a therapy room than certainly Tommy Shelby. And we have seen that she's got a softer side Polly when it comes to Ada, the only girl sibling in the Shelby clan. Later on in episode two, Polly does open up about her own history with abortion. The longer you leave it, the worse it gets. Believe me, I know. I was 16. And I didn't dare tell anyone.

Poly video come back? In the end I did it myself. I did it to myself. And I almost died. And he didn't come back. They don't. Why should they? You know the words. You're a whore. Baby's a bastard.

But there's no word for the man who doesn't come back. Well, my heart broke. Yeah. Well, I mean, Polly talking about her abortion, which in contrast to the religious image she also demonstrates, meant that she had a real conflict to kind of overcome. Must have been huge. But that does seem to be the essence of Polly, that duality between the kind of, if we like the good and bad framed by the church in lots of instances as good, and I'm using inverted

commas there, and criminality as bad. People are often trying to categorize her as one or the other, whereas she is just the most wonderful mix of it all. And that also demonstrates hearing her speak there how she's had to battle from an early age and take care of herself. And sound like anyone else, she didn't have an Aunt Polly around

to kind of take her to one side and say, this might be how you want to deal with it. She had an evil brother. She definitely had an evil brother. We don't know much about her parents, their parents. And Tommy alludes to this in the second episode that she's had a harder life. For a woman who's had a hard life with men.

So Polly. Is still full of romance. Is desperately trying to keep Ada and her boyfriend, Freddie Thorne together. And in that kind of act is nurturing Ada. I don't know about her feelings for Freddie are pretty obvious later on. Yeah, and keeping, like trying desperately

to have some semblance of a family structure. You can see how important she thinks that is having the dad around despite the fact that he's problematic because you know his communist union that he's set up so many things could come to blows they could come to blows with the police with the blinders anything could happen so it's not necessarily going to be stable anyway but you can tell Polly feels like let's at least give ourselves the best possible start. A mom, a dad, a baby, a roof over their heads. Let's start with that. That's at least, yeah, exactly. As the most stable base that she can possibly kind of manipulate out of what you say is a very precarious situation. And in episode six, we find out Polly is a mother and a widower.

She's never had cause to tell Ada about her own children before. But we get a window into why she's so loyal to Tommy. They took my children from me. They never told me where they took them. They did it because they could and because I was weak. They would never take your baby away from you. Do you know why? Because Tommy won't let them.

Because Tommy won't let them walk all over us. Now it is Tommy that has brought strength and power to this family. Because he knows you have to be as bad as them above in order to survive. Again, I mean, it's multi-layered. Yeah, it begins heartbreaking, then you see that strength in her, like, don't f*** with me. Even though I'm at my most vulnerable right now, maybe I'm also at my most dangerous. And she's cool because she's feeling powerful and she recognizes that in that society and in that time, Tommy wields a power that she can never hope to in that similar way. I mean, she's heartbroken, like you say, and you can see why she's become such a strong matriarchal

figure caring for the children who were left themselves in a way that she wasn't able perhaps to care for her own. Yeah and you also get a sense from that clip that of where her fearlessness comes from, you know, she says about Tommy, he understands that you know you've got to match the badness of these bad people. You've got to match your sort of emotional output to the situation. So she's sort of like, there's this little almost subconscious justification of like anything goes. That loyalty and that maintaining of the family unit

at all costs. I mean, some of this, all of it might come into the therapy room for Polly, her experience as a young woman, her children being taken away, the impact of mothering the wider Shelby clan. There's a lot of what we might term now, well, unfit mothers in the early to mid 1900s, that was a thing, you know, religious, moralistic. She might feel it's hard not to believe what they say she is or was, so drunk they found gin on the premises before the police took her kids away, so there would have been that kind of spectre of being an unfit mother. There's no compassion in the environment here and it's hugely judgmental.

So it takes quite a lot of strength of ego and character to stand up and be counted to believe that she's equal to any of those men if not better in some ways against a completely you know differently prevailing societal wind which is women definitely don't count they're too emotional they're not to be trusted. I mean this is at the same time as Freud was talking about hysteria in women that happened contemporaneously to Peaky Blinders. So women were sedated, locked away for not being able to control their emotions, rather than society taking a look at what it might be to live as a woman in the 1900s.

It's incredible to think we're talking about over a century ago, and then you think about some of the laws that have been turned around, turned on their head in like modern day, like today. turned around, turned on their head in like modern day like today because there's still that lingering thing of like you can't let a woman decide. They're very emotional. I'm just feeling my hair in the back of my neck stand up. I know you're playing tabletop. I think we know best.

There there. And they did it! As recently as 1950, 1970 there were questionable adoption practices in the UK and the government issued an apology, but as late as kind of 2022 to say, no, we apologize for taking children away from unmarried mothers. And I think it was Harriet Harmon as part of the joint committee at that point saying the unique importance of the bomb between mother and child has been acknowledged down the centuries in this country just a few decades ago. That bond was ruptured and

hundreds of mothers and babies were kind of taken apart from each other and the baby taken for adoption. And that's not what happened to Polly exactly, but that sense of we're going to make the decision for you or you're not fit enough to look after or you don't fit the kind of mould for what we think mother should look like. And then you're just left with those emotions, like are they, you know when you're at your lowest and you just think the horrible things that I perceive to be said about me may be there, true, do you know what I mean?

I will, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So much for her to deal with and such huge burdens to carry. Well there'd be shame as well. And yeah, the religious cultural side of it as well. I mean, there's so many elements against her. And being deemed unfit to care for her babies, being tricked into having her kids taken away,

I feel like there's that inference in there as well. And we find out later what has happened to her children and how she might make some kind of reparation. Right, because one is still alive, a son. Yep, Michael. Who's 17-ish, but unfortunately she's lost her daughter. In strange circumstances. There's a heartbreaking point.

I didn't know how much to read into it, because it's very matter of fact the way Tommy tells her. He's been fishing, clearly for information on both. He's been doing some digging using his contacts. It's interesting, isn't it? Because it's the more emotional Polly going to a seance to see if she can actually contact her children in that kind of way. And then of course we have the rational Tommy who goes, look, this is what I'm going to find out through the sources that I have. And she does find out that Alice died in Australia. Alice, her daughter,

died in Australia having been exiled. So hadn't really settled with foster families. And Polly's way of thinking about it is much more spiritual and transpersonal than perhaps the Catholicism and the Catholic framework she might have been raised within. Cause she says, ah, Alice worked hard and traveled long distances to reach me in my dreams. Going back to like Polly's feelings of shame, you know, some may be triggered by Catholicism, some may be triggered by generally what she's led to believe a good woman is and a bad woman is trying to live with the guilt and the shame around that.

If you're doing it for as long as Polly's been doing it, you know, could have been pre-abortion, post-abortion, it could have been a lot of it, depending on what her childhood was like, who knows? What kind of effect does that have on the psyche? It can be really pernicious. Those inner voices are loud sometimes and can really limit how you live your life because of course we've ingested them or digested them as rules or ways in which we are supposed to live. But of course, that's only according to one section of society, say Catholicism or our parental unit or families. So there are only rules in as far as keeping the peace within those circles are concerned. So believing the iniquitic can be really difficult

to undo that work. It takes a long time to perhaps hear those voices as they really are. There might be a certain amount of blame attached to what happened to her. She may be feeling, you know, somehow she could have stopped it from happening. As we heard in that clip. How would you spot the signs? Like if you're sat opposite her, how would you? Because sometimes, not I say sometimes, very often it's quite difficult to articulate. You can hear it in Poly because she says, and I didn't do anything to stop them.

So what we might work with is, she was still a child at 16. She wasn't being protected and she couldn't protect herself. What she's internalised is the judgement from outside. She should have done something. I should have. As soon as we hear the should, we are looking for signs of the in from outside. She should have done something. I should have. As soon as we hear the should, we are looking for signs of the iniquitic. Gotcha.

Because who is saying that we should? Where's that voice coming from? I could have, I should have done something to stop this. Says who could be quite a good response in conversation with the... Well, I've uttered several times. Who says? Right.

But... I love that though. They should have that more in like horror films, you know. You know when they go, oh you don't want to go up there. They say it's built over Indian burial ground. Who? Says who? Yeah. Says who?

Any facts? In that instance it might actually be quite a good idea to listen to that voice. New therapist style. Says who? You on about? Well, there is, I mean, you're effectively voicing the question, which is, where does that voice come from? And why do you believe that that's something that you could have done something about? Because if we really strip the layers back, you were 16, you weren't,

there wasn't anyone looking after you like Polly does for Ada, and you really weren't able to protect yourself. You were still a child. That might help unhook from the should, but it's a life's work unhooking from the inner voices because we also like to believe them, and in lots of ways they've kept us safe. It's not about totally breaking down that structure

and dismantling it. It's about understanding where it came from, when it was pertinent, because that will have kept her safe for a long time, and perhaps why she doesn't need that framework in all situations in the present day. I guess there's a sort of link to ego here as well, right? Because sometimes it is good to say, pipe down a little bit, you got that wrong. Do you know what I mean? Completely.

Just shut up and listen for a minute and that that's that's like it's it's not a shadow voice or a negative voice like a constructive criticism voice that's quite quite useful so like what what's some of the other ways that she sort of presents this maverick side to her approach? She has taken to being the matriarch of the family. And when talking to Tommy, she really doesn't try to present a different point of view. I mean, for instance, when talking about dealing with Freddie, Ada's communist husband, and in the final episode of season one, we really see her take a kind of leadership role, possibly matriarch but also protective for the family

when it comes to confronting Grace, who's been outed as a police officer. The hairpin. The hairpin, Ben. It's gone, it's loaded. Not afraid of you. Feel sorry for you. I'd really struggle as an actor to make a hairpin,

like me just pulling out a hairpin to make it look threatening. But she pulls out a hairpin, it reminded me of Blackadder pulling out the pencil on Borgia. It's just like that pencil could create all sorts of trouble for this other person. Issues. And as we heard in the clip at the top, Polly says she's never going to forgive or accept grace. It's me who runs the business at the heart of this family. So while Polly sees Tommy as the physical leader of Peaky Blinders,

the heart of the operation, she is running as a true matriarch. And that's a kind of constant conflict of feminine and masculine, everything in between. The idea that all of that resides in all of us and doesn't have to be at war. Polly really inhabits that in a way that is certainly more problematic. Yeah, I mean, she doesn't seem to have a problem with it, be at war. Polly really inhabits that in a way that is certainly more problematic for Tommy.

Yeah, she doesn't seem to have a problem with it, you know, because you see her being so strong against Tom who is like, nobody else would stand up to him. How might you empower someone to give him that level of strength to speak, you know? Female empowerment shines out from Polly. She's kind of got it. Hasn't she? On one level and quite often we can be working at building resilience with people and clients and talking about power and what it's like to feel powerful. And often people really want it, but they also fear it. They don't like it. So this is where we come to that doer and done to and unseeing observer that we mentioned at the top, which are three elements of a trauma triangle.

And we all move between those within us. We've all got those elements, but we might align with one more than the other. Give us an example. So if sometimes people are very identified in one particular role, so either victim, which is Duntoo, abuser, doer or the Unseeing Observer, and it's hard to locate that we have the other inside us as well. So if you're really identified in the victim role, it might be difficult to feel your own power because that will be really scary, because that then identifies you with your abuser.

Before we go deeper, can I just ask, is this like universal? Is there like lesser versions of this with no abuse, no trauma? I mean, just mean like a family of four kids, whatever, do you know what I mean? One feels this way, one feels... It's applicable throughout. Totally happy household. Well, you know what I mean? I don't know. Normal, what's normal? There's the drama triangle that people talk about as well, which is very similar. And that's where you get the idea of rescuer coming in. So that's victim perpetrator, rescuer, but it's a similar setup.

Polly shows resilience in spades. And I was left wondering though, if that's in reaction. So therefore we're seeing kind of creation of a false self. She has the resilient one who is, she's needed to be at times which will be the more kind of doer I suppose. He's very effective in getting through her life but perhaps at the costs to other parts of herself which might be too painful to be with or too difficult to remember. Alright well listen I want to ask you more about this false self thing, but let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to have a look

at how Polly manages to live with morals and violence, which is something we've sort of touched on, but not really dug into. And we'll dig deeper into the combo of her and Tommy as well. So come straight back after the ads. I mean, you don't have to go anywhere if you're a subscriber to the take because no time Will have passed we'll just be back

But anyway, either way let's leave you with some classic poly if I come for you And I still might yet decide to come for you I will wear high heels so you can hear my approach on the cobblestones and have time to repent What you're hearing right now is a paid ad from our friends at BetterHelp Therapy. Now do you spend a lot of time on social media scrolling endlessly and comparing your life to others? I've been guilty of that in the past. You see people getting married, first houses, new jobs, or they're on amazing holidays and you think, well, what about me?

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It's open. It's on you I can resolve. It's open. It's on you. Full self, let's go. We'll get to that. So the lengths Polly has to go to, her long lost son, for example, are kind of heartbreaking. And here's where we see the kind of other side of Polly. Halfway through series two, this is a massive spoiler.

So if you're still in series one, you might want to close your ears now. She allows, again again inverted commas, Inspector Campbell to rape her for Michael's freedom, only to meet Michael as he leaves prison with a look of disdain on his face. Because of course, the inspector and the other police officers have told him how his freedom was earned. And I just felt the weight of the patriarchy here. It's pretty hard viewing. But so she's got these two sides within herself. How hard is it to balance these two things?

She's got this wonderful, nurturing mother. She's desperate to parent her long lost son, Michael. She's making him sandwiches, trying to keep him away from the gang. She's in constant conflict, that nurturing emotional versus the resilient and rational. And it might be hard to have those opposing forces within when they aren't integrated. I think in lots of ways they are integrated in Polly, but it can be tiring to have that conflict or for that conflict to live within you. And it seems, I don't

even see that actually, Helen McCrory expresses that beautifully. She becomes more and more weighed down with the conflict as Polly throughout the end of season one. Do you think you can see it in her demeanor? Like the weight literally shows up in her body. We see it, shoulders drop, heavy heart. There are so many conflicts of Polly to navigate and possible internal struggles between this criminal life that she's chosen quote unquote and living a good life as laid out by the church, which she considers to be really important and of course in lots of ways she views as keeping her safe. Let's get into that then. How is it that she has such a moral flexibility?

She's very religious Polly. We see that in the first episode. We see her countering rosary beads. She's also wearing a black veil, which is quite We see that in the first episode. We see her countering rosary beads. She's also wearing a black veil, which is quite symbolic, as if she's in mourning. Obviously, we know she's a widower. She kneels and makes a sign of the cross as she leaves. Whilst she's in the church, she confronts Tommy about him stealing guns. This is safe ground for her to bring up something that is obviously quite troublesome for her. I have ten minutes. What do you want? An explanation. for her to bring up something that is obviously quite troublesome for her. I've been talking to the wives of factory hands, detectives have been asking questions in the proofing shops. Nothing happens in that factory without you knowing about it.

Speak. God and Aunt Polly are listening. I mean it suggests that God and Aunt Polly are... Part of the Holy Trinity. Yes, exactly. With the Holy Ghost. Doesn't it feel like confession there where she's sort of asking him to confess in a way or make some sort of confession. And again, talking about crimes,

which you see the conflict for Polly straddling both the religious element, which is obviously there's been a theft here. She also wants to know about it for the safety and the loyalty of the family. And I feel like she might be compartmentalizing these tricky bedfellows, which allows her to have both. And when she's being the kind of stronger matriarch of this criminal organization, she can wear that okay if she's slightly more distant from her religious side, or in the church she's going gonna play the part of the ultimate judgment and God and perhaps the criminal side is kept at

arm's length as well. I'm doing that kind of holding my arm out both ways but that's what lots of people do with conflictual elements in their life. They will compartmentalize them and shut them off. It's not so much walking a tightrope where you might fall into one, fall into the other. There's a bit more control to it. You're going to actually, like, I'm not that person today. I'm not dealing with any of that. We put it aside.

There's a balance that she has to have as well with the general relationship of her with Tommy because sometimes she is clearly an aunt. She's aunt Polly, she's senior. But other times they're more like siblings. And again, it's like that thing of he was the boss, then she was the boss, now he's the boss again. But they've both been bosses. So they're like equal and unequal, depending on I don't know, there's a dynamic there, isn't there? Oh, there's a pond we need to dive into, Ben, but I just don't know if we've got time about

power. Because who's to say that being older means you should be more powerful? Where does that come from? And there are lots of younger, more knowledgeable or kind of experienced people or seeing things in a different way. So there's no reason why her age should mean she should necessarily be more powerful. But I think we see that, don't we? There's a kind of, that hierarchy is part of a patriarchal paradigm within which certainly Peaky Blinders is set and let's not make any bones about it. It's not changed much since. No, absolutely. Because as you were talking, I was just thinking about siblings or like roles within a family. Like if you've got two adults within a family, like Polly and Tommy, you know,

you could have a situation where one of those adults is married with kids, but younger than the older sibling. And the older sibling like, I don't know, travels around the world having like crazy experiences. Like which one has the authority of advice? Do you know what I mean? You know, there's give and take. But you don't know who's,

are you in charge just because you've got kids? You know, there's give and take. Well, you don't know who's... Are you in charge just because you've got kids? You know, like with John and, um, Tommy, John would never do this because he recognizes the power structures too ingrained. But there's times when they're very patronizing towards John. Hold on a minute. I've got four kids, mate. I've done shit that you've never even... You wouldn't even know where to begin with stuff that I've done.

And you fixed this race without the permission of Billy Kimber? Obviously didn't teach you well enough. Rule one, you don't punch above your weight. Billy Kimber is there for the taking. Says who? Says Tom in his Parliament of One. I ran this business for five years. Yeah, when I was away fighting, remember? When I learned some things, such as, you strike when your enemy is weak.

And I thought you came here to talk family business. I'll deal with it. You're too busy taking over the world. God, it's exactly like you said. One goes around the world and gets some experience. Somebody else has been looking after the family. Can you see his dig at her as well? Hear that?

You come here to talk about family business back off of what's happening with Billy Kimber, but it feels like a battle for top position here. And Polly's always willing to stand up for what she believes in and push her own agenda, despite Tommy being male head of the organization, as far as the outside world is big on loyalty, isn't she? So like, if that's what you're going to do, I know you well enough to know that you're probably going to do it without whether I advise you not to or not. But tell me what is going on, you know, and when he doesn't, that's when she really like,

I think she really loses it. And you did that with the Freddy Fawn situation when she believes that he's mistakenly got Freddy pinched. And that is again about protecting family, which we've talked about for Polly is really important. And we've heard as well she sees Tommy as the saver and protector as the season goes on. There is competitive nature, but she ultimately sees Tommy as the one who shields them. And we heard it earlier when she talked to Ada about the baby, Tommy wouldn't let them walk all over us. Now it's Tommy that's brought strength and power to the family. So I heard that as evidence again of how inured she is to the patriarchal paradigm she's living in unsurprisingly, because that was all there

was. Well, let's dig into that a little bit after these words from our sponsors. Shrinkers, we'll see you even sooner than that. ["The Last Supper"] Female athletes have always needed grit and talent, but for decades, they've also needed a certificate. To prove that they were actually women,

according to different definitions. And even now, they're still being checked and questioned. Their story is the newest podcast series from CBC and NPR's Embedded. It's called Tested. Listen now. embedded. It's called Tested. Listen now. get enough of. We're covering the latest in film, video games, music, manga, and obviously anime. Get the latest on the anime effect. So join us every Friday wherever you get your podcasts.

And watch full video episodes on Crunchyroll or the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. All right, and we're back on the other side. 1919, women are just starting to get rights of some kind for the first time. Yeah, I mean the Education Act of 1918 raised the school leaving age to 14. Women were better educated or had access to education. Sex Disqualification Act of 1919 made it a little bit easier for women to go to university and take up professional jobs as teachers, nurses, and few even qualified as doctors. But of course, society had a long way to catch up. The fact that the possibility was there didn't necessarily mean that was open to everyone. But Polly was far ahead

of her time when it came to be a woman at the top of a crime family like this and kind of being enabled to wield power and she definitely doesn't see herself a second rate. Well at least there's no law at least within a crime family that it couldn't be a woman doing these things. It's obviously the same unwritten laws as what's going on in the wider patriarchal paradigm that you mentioned, but technically the world that she's in, it's like a show and prove industry.

If you show you can do it, if you prove you can do it, there's respect to be had. Whereas in the outside world, like you say, even if you've got the ability, you might just be shunned from going to this university or studying to be a doctor or whatever it might be. What do you think, Aunt Paul? This family does everything open. You've nothing more to say to this meeting, Thomas? No. Nothing. That's women's business.

This whole bloody enterprise was women's business while you boys were away at war. What's changed? We came back. There's family business. There's women's business. There's women's business. Absolutely. And of course, there's Irish business.

There's a lot of splitting. There's Irish business. There's a lot of splitting. There's Irish business. A lot of splitting. Which nobody's allowed to ask anything about. No. And Tommy keeps that very much to himself. And I'm not sure Polly even knows that that's going on.

What would she do if she found out about that? But she turns it around beautifully later on in episode two. We've just heard Tommy obviously talk about women's business. And Polly says, I thought you didn't care for women's business and Polly says, I thought you didn't care for women's business. When Tommy actually ends up asking where Ada was sleeping when the police came in and wrecked the place. So she's not afraid to question that male authority. And she takes that even further when Inspector Campbell comes to visit

her in the church. She shows how she won't take any of that. The gentleman will take off his hat. Put out his pipe. See who specials only dare come here when you know the boy's all the way at the fair. You mean your nephews? Their guns and their razors. Is it them you're lighting candles for? No. I'm lighting candles for the boys from the garrison who lost their lives in France.

There's a list there. Look. Here you didn't make it to France, Inspector Campbell. You've heard of me? I've heard of you. Is it the Holy Grail you're looking for? As a matter of fact, it is the Holy Grail I'm looking for. Something precious, something stolen. Perhaps you know what I'm talking about.

Something precious, something stolen. You know what I'm talking about. Sorry. Misunderstood your intention when you push me against the wall. She's seriously thinking on her feet. Cause he's pushed her up against the wall and she kisses him. Kisses him. Disarms him.

Like where does she get that level of confidence? Is she like, is she born with it or is it something that she's learned? Oh, I think that's survival. I expect that survival instinct kicked in in that moment. And you might, you're not going to have much control over that. It's going to go the way it goes in that moment. And for her, that was very much a, this is how I'm going to get rid of him in this situation. The last thing he's going to expect.

Yeah. We're then into what's, how trauma is stored in the body and how that might kind of come through for her is that she feels fear and to kind of survive she knows she's got to get out and the way to get out is to is to shock him. She knows there's he's a malevolent presence this guy he's dangerous and he's above the law so knee in the nuts is not going to cut it you're going to be smarter than the knee in the nuts. She's wonderful. She says to Freddie on handling Tommy Shelby, he won't be able to handle Tommy Shelby. I'm having trouble these days and I'm twice the man you are. So here we go again. This is unexpected.

Yeah, it's good. Perhaps for a woman in this era, she rarely mentions her words and it wouldn't have been commonplace necessarily to have women speak in such a forthright manner. Like you say, she doesn't pull any punches when she talks about men's business or any other business. Do you think in different circumstances, Polly Shelby could have been just as strong a force for quote unquote good? It's fascinating, isn't it? Yeah, different life chances, different circumstances, environment.

It comes down to the integration with her in that I think she sees both her femininity and masculine characteristics as strengths. Certainly in the first couple of seasons of Peaky Blinders. It doesn't feel like she's got to hide any side of herself. She's made a choice, which feels partly out of love to stick with the family and fear because she doesn't know any other way. I think she's a force for good in the kind of place that she's found herself. She saves lives if you think about it with her actions.

Ada is the one, I guess, he's the younger female character that we see being exposed to the potential for women politically with her union with Freddy, but then later on in season two. It'd be interesting to see how Polly might have thrived or not outside the Shelby clan. But underlying all of this, it's heartbreaking because it doesn't feel like she can escape and that really is the sort of message for all of them. You don't retire from this job, do you know what I mean? You don't retire from this life. The only way out is death or prison. Everybody deep down knows that,

but none of them really want to talk about that because it's fearful, you know, and it's negative. Well, I think also we don't talk enough about death in society and certainly in Western culture and in this country. So that is the ultimate end for all of us at some point. But certainly out of this way of life, it's kind of whether it comes faster. Yeah, who takes it, how violent it is, how upsetting it is for those that you love around you.

And are you going to get everything you want to get done before there's a bullet in the back of your head? This is how these guys live. It's Peaky Blinders, man. There's so many things going on that keep you gripped to that show. Can't recommend it enough. In the moment, who have we got coming up next time?

See, if you can remember this, it is quite a while ago. My plan, bubs. Johnny had a plan. Get out the way, mother- This here white boy day. I got a plan too. What? Oh the legendary Bubbles. We creep back in there and steal that sh** right back. The legendary bubbles from I think it's fair to use the word iconic, the iconic show, The Wire. That is right.

Not our first visit to The Wire. No, I don't think so. But this time we'll be talking about addiction in which I'll introduce you to author and physician Gabil Mate. He's an expert on that subject and the kind of headspace that you might need to be in when being a police informer. All right. I cannot wait for that. We would be thrilled if you could follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon music or wherever you get your pod to get new apps. And if you do like it, please share us as

much as you can so we can make some more. Yeah. We're kind of enjoying doing it, aren't we then? Oh man, I love it, man. And if you want the same, please share us as much as you can so we can make some more. Yeah. We're kind of enjoying doing it, aren't we then? Oh man, I love it, man. And if you want the same show, but without the ads, you want to be a Shrinker. Of course you do. You can subscribe to Extra Takes, get the ad free episodes from Kermode and Mayo's Take as well and their weekly bonus episodes.

And you could start your free trial now if you want by clicking try free at the top of the Shrink the Box show page on Apple podcasts or by visiting extra takes.com. Production management is Lily Hambly the assistant producer is Scarlett O'Malley the studio engineer is Theo Schlossman and the mix engineer is Josh Gibb the producer is Jeremy Newmark Jones the senior producer Selena Ream and executive producer Simon Paul.